RC Car Craze: The Spam Connection

Link to non-reg-req version by Motherfucking+Shit · 2002-12-22 08:45 · Score: 5, Informative

MSNBC is carrying the same article without the registration requirement.

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.

Re:Link to non-reg-req version by ceejayoz · 2002-12-22 09:51 · Score: 2

Or, you could just use the WP's suggested entries: born in 1965 and zip code 20171 :-p
Re:Link to non-reg-req version by rjamestaylor · 2002-12-22 10:48 · Score: 2

I've never gotten a registration required page at Washington Post...is it new? I'm using Opera 6.05 on Windows, but same has held true on WinXP-IE6 as late as Friday.

--
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello

why not boycott spam products? by SHEENmaster · 2002-12-22 08:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's a lot easier than boycotting 3rd world child labor or commercial software. To bad grandmothers and perverts are the true targets of spam; not us.

--
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.

Re:why not boycott spam products? by jvj24601 · 2002-12-22 09:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's a lot easier than boycotting 3rd world child labor or commercial software. To bad grandmothers and perverts are the true targets of spam; not us.

Except that in this case, perverts (as far as I can tell) were not the true targets of spam. We (parents) were.

This spam did not interest me, specifically (because my son isn't into toys like that), but my coworker (who also has a 7 year old), who actually ordered some these cars, went on to say "Yeah, for once, some spam was actually useful. Go figure." Go figure, indeed.

I have over 30 email aliases assigned to my company email address for various software-registration and mail-order companies, and what not. And I get scores of spam and hate it. But if I ever got a spam that read something like "Get memory from cruical.com for 70% off", I (and I suspect many /. readers as well) would probably read it. It all depends on the target and message. If I could change my spam from porn and HGH and penis enlargement to computer-related hardware and software discounts, I would mind it a whole lot less...
Re:why not boycott spam products? by still_sick · 2002-12-22 09:21 · Score: 2

To what end would you boycott the product?

Whether you don't buy the car at all, or buy the car from a reputable non-spammer seller, the spammer still does not see a profit.

Besides, with the run-away hit that these cars already are, the few thousand lost sales that an absolutely succesful slashdot-wide boycott would cause would not be noticed.

But you're absolutely right in that people should never by a product from the company that spammed them. If you receive an ad for something cool, go out and buy it from their closest non-spamming competitor.

--
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
Re:why not boycott spam products? by toybuilder · 2002-12-22 10:24 · Score: 2

This spam did not interest me, specifically (because my son isn't into toys like that), but my coworker (who also has a 7 year old), who actually ordered some these cars, went on to say "Yeah, for once, some spam was actually useful. Go figure." Go figure, indeed.

Except that if he bought it from the spammer's, he's likely paying $29.95 for the lower-quality Chinese "knockoffs" which I can go downtown and buy a dozen for $66 from "cash-and-carry" distributors. Hell, for real wholesalers, the real cost is even lower.
Re:why not boycott spam products? by v8interceptor · 2002-12-22 14:19 · Score: 2, Funny

Not for perverts?

With an X10 and a mini RC car (both bought via spam), you should see up the ladies' skirts!!

Then, you could place the images on a website, and spam people with the address!

--
--- Why are you wearing that stupid bunny suit? | Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
Re:why not boycott spam products? by uncoveror · 2002-12-23 03:02 · Score: 2

The popularity of these little RC cars will show spammers that spam works. This sucks. Every day I sift through about a gross of spam e-mails to find 4 or 5 legit ones, and I probably ain't seen nothin' et. Again, This sucks!

--
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Re:why not boycott spam products? by meringuoid · 2002-12-23 07:43 · Score: 2

But if I ever got a spam that read something like "Get memory from cruical.com for 70% off", I (and I suspect many /. readers as well) would probably read it. It all depends on the target and message.
No. No. No. The issue is consent, not content. I don't care if it's Ralsky's chicks-with-horses or some Alabaman spam-for-Christ, I don't care if it's selling herbal viagra or asking for donations for sick children. If I didn't ask for it, it goes to abuse@ and to uce@ftc.gov. I will never, ever, under any circumstances, buy a product or service of any description whatsoever, from a spammer. Even if the spammer happens to be a store down the road, and the advertised product one I intended to buy from them anyway that very morning - I'll go elsewhere.
If I got a '70% off memory' spam I would probably buy a memory upgrade from the sender's chief competitor, and let both firms know why. Actually, that might encourage the wrong behaviour... we don't want MS joe-jobbing RH, now, do we?

--
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Re:why not boycott spam products? by sparty · 2002-12-23 13:50 · Score: 2

When I get spam about something I'm actually interested in--such as RAM or air tools or something like that--I tend to read it and will usually considering buying products, because unless it's been sent to me five million times, I'm not sure if I might have accidentally given my address to the company with consent to send me stuff (and/or to someone who was sold to the company sending the mail). So, basically, I don't have the time to figure out if it is spam some of the time...

On the other hand, if I get five emails about the same stuff with subject lines ending in a pseudorandom combination of letters and numbers, then I definitely wouldn't buy it.
Re:why not boycott spam products? by peter · 2002-12-24 19:17 · Score: 2

If ads were sent directly to my mail server, not through an open relay or some crap like that, I would consider it. I'd rather have an email instead of a flyer tucked into my newspaper. All advertizing wastes some of your time, and I don't think a total ban on all advertizing is justified, for ethical or economic reasons. Why is email special? For some reason, email advertizing tends toward harassment, unlike flyers from the supermarket and future shop. Dan has observed some spammers continue to send mail weeks after the site they promote was shut down. That's the sort of thing the wastes everyone's time and should be gotten rid of. If I got an ad via email from a normal company, and it was directly from them, not a hotmail account and a website on geocities or something, I wouldn't be angry with them, even if I had no desire at all to buy their stuff.

I said earlier that I don't think all advertizing should be banned. I don't spend a lot of time going around looking for new products that I might be interested in. If I could think of things to look for, I could invent stuff myself (and be in a position to advertize it!). I don't watch a lot of infomercials on TV (except for the phone-sex ads that feature hot babes in skimpy outfits :), so how else would I find out about new inventions that might actually be useful. The problem that needs to be solved is getting rid of the spam trash, not eliminating advertizing by spam entirely. Of course, things like spamassasin are tuned to detect the bad spam. Maybe all advertizing via email should be banned until we figure out how to get advertizers to show some restraint. That may seem oxymoronic, but apparently in Europe, there are restrictions on TV advertizing directed at children. Not everyone in the ad industry is evil, so we need to figure out how to keep the evil people from making a mess.

--
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes , .ca)

Google by spacefight · 2002-12-22 08:46 · Score: 2

Jump with Google.

Actually... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-22 08:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

...the spam has caused me to NOT buy these things. I figure if they are going to spam, the product must rank right up there with the penis + breast enlagement pills.

in other news... by Shymon · 2002-12-22 08:48 · Score: 5, Funny

Harvard business school recently stated that marketing causes people to buy things! This startling discovery is said to revolutionize the way people do business. "no more hiding my merchandise for me!" said one excited store-owner.

I have one by LinuxInDallas · 2002-12-22 08:49 · Score: 2, Informative

Hey, I bought one of these guys and they are very cool. They sell them at Frys and my friend's 4 year old loves it. For the cheap price they are a great deal. They're also great for annoying the family pet.

Re:I have one by checkitout · 2002-12-22 09:35 · Score: 2

Yep, that's why I bought mine. It was a $10 impulse buy at walgreens. The cats go nuts trying to catch it. I hadn't even seen any advertising for it, other than the $50 one at Thinkgeek. Saying that spam fueled the sales is rather speculative.
Re:I have one by Dynamoo · 2002-12-22 10:02 · Score: 2

Hands up, I bought from a local store simply because the spam gave me an idea for a Christmas present.
Could be an interesting twist on guerrilla marketing.. send out completely fake spams to generate interest in a product. Nothing to blacklist or complain to a host about because it's all a fabrication. Hmmm.

--
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com

I must be doing something wrong by core+plexus · 2002-12-22 08:49 · Score: 2

I didn't get any of those spams, and in fact lately I get only 3 or 4 spams per day, in part due to my ISP implementing email filtering (postini is the name I believe), and in part due to my aggressive attitude towards spam.

Speaking of which, does anyone remember web poision? It was a cool little CGI script that generated snacks for spambots. A page (linked, or so it appeared to the spambot) would have dozens or hunderds of bogus links and email addy's, and each trip would generate another, completely new page. I want to put something like that on every server I use.

Re:I must be doing something wrong by spacefight · 2002-12-22 08:54 · Score: 3, Informative

I want to put something like that on every server I use
Try Sugarplum.
Re:I must be doing something wrong by core+plexus · 2002-12-22 09:02 · Score: 2

High Five! Thank you. Now if everyone put it on, the spammers would be crying out. My only question is, what of the bounced emails? Could something like that clog the spammers, and their victims (ISP's)?
Re:I must be doing something wrong by spacefight · 2002-12-22 09:07 · Score: 2

I'll warn you. It could suck up your transfer rate if you have one. The bounced emails? I doubt it that there are any on demagogical8@radburya.gov or unretaliated@palaeornithine.slapping.info or rTewstx4kljls@thurt.tv, do you?
Re:I must be doing something wrong by spacefight · 2002-12-22 09:11 · Score: 2

There is other stuff out there for prevention in spamming terms. It is called SPEWS (spam prevention early warning system) and is quite effective in filtering spam if you already have some "burned" addresses. But it can block legit emails too.
Re:I must be doing something wrong by core+plexus · 2002-12-22 09:14 · Score: 2

If the spammer sends an email to one of the bogus addy's, where does it go? If the spammer has hijacked an isp's server, then? Not that I have much sympathy for any admin who is so slacker, but still I wonder.
I also wonder if there is a way to limit the transfer rate (not a problem for me, but it would be great if we got this spread around). I intend to fight back.
Re:I must be doing something wrong by spacefight · 2002-12-22 09:21 · Score: 2

It gets a host unreachable or similar if the domain is not valid. Spammer do not hijacke an isp's server, they use open relays, open proxies and so on. What they put in their Return-path (part of the envelope) is their biz so bounces get to the Return-path address if the domain is bouncing. You better fight back in analyzing your spam, report it to the ISPs (hoster, dropbox providers etc) and dive into usenet into nanae. For getting some practice I mean :)
Re:I must be doing something wrong by FyRE666 · 2002-12-22 11:02 · Score: 2

Trust me, you need to have a mechanism in place to stop the spammer's spider sucking up all your bandwidth or it'll get really expensive to do this!

I've written a perl script that does the same for my site, and it's set up to only allow links down to 4 layers deep from the first page (pages are randomly generated, but each bogus URL includes a depth key=>value pair hidden in the mess.

Also ensure any random email addresses really are random (as much as possible). I have the script perform an nslookup on the domains it generates to make sure they don't resolve - it also slows down page generation significantly, which is another bonus...

--
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.

Great, now retail stores will start spamming by Revtim · 2002-12-22 08:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Now that it's shown that Spam actually helps the brick and mortar stores, now are we going to see Walmart and KMart behind a lot of spam in the future?

Re:Great, now retail stores will start spamming by brassman · 2002-12-22 14:49 · Score: 2

Now that it's shown that Spam actually helps the brick and mortar stores, now are we going to see Walmart and KMart behind a lot of spam in the future?

First, I don't believe a word any spammer says. Second, can't speak for KMart, but Wal-Mart says "No." You may have seen a recent case of fraud where some guy was abusing the Wal-Mart name in his spam -- you would not want to be in that guy's shoes this time next month.

--
"Ain't no right way to do a wrong thing."

bad journalism alert by Stanley+Feinbaum · 2002-12-22 08:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

The Washington Post wants to know your age, ZIP code and sex, and even provides you with hints on the first two

And yet slashdot still links to their site, as do you guys link to the new york times' site.

As a professional journalist, I can tell you that they use that information you input to profile you and sell it to advertisers. Try posting a google cache link next time instead.

--

Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!

Re:bad journalism alert by spacefight · 2002-12-22 09:14 · Score: 2

As a professional /. lurker, I can tell you that they can sell my profile as long as they want. Ever heard of bogus information? Throway email addresses?
Re:bad journalism alert by Graff · 2002-12-22 09:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can tell you that they use that information you input to profile you and sell it to advertisers.

This is why I always put down that I'm a female, born in 1902, who lives in zip code 90210.

They can ask all they want, but all they will get is the most misleading information I can give them. Having a database full of garbage is much worse than them getting rid of the database entirely. Hopefully they will realize that some day and stop bothering us.

--
Sapere aude!
Re:bad journalism alert by BilldaCat · 2002-12-22 09:41 · Score: 2

right .. because you should get everything for free, right? How DARE the washington post ask for the most basic of user demographic data in exchange for their content? The bastards!

--
BilldaCat
Re:bad journalism alert by 91degrees · 2002-12-22 10:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why? We all know that the information will be sold to marketers. It's not up to Slashdot to protect us from this. Simpky to inform us. We have a choice. We can go without, follow the link and provide our details, or follow the link and lie about our details.

Most people lie. I was told that the average web surfer owns their own company and earns more than $1 000 000 per year.
Re:bad journalism alert by FyRE666 · 2002-12-22 11:05 · Score: 4, Funny

As a professional journalist, I can tell you that they use that information you input to profile you and sell it to advertisers. Try posting a google cache link next time instead.

So what? I always sign up as cmdrtaco@slashdot.org anyway ;-)

(only kidding... it's cowboy neil)

--
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
Re:bad journalism alert by writermike · 2002-12-22 11:53 · Score: 5, Funny

This is why I always put down that I'm a female, born in 1902, who lives in zip code 90210.

So, you're the whippersnapper that's been putting me on all those mailing lists! I might be 100 years old, but my cane can still fit up your butthole, sonny.

--
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
Re:bad journalism alert by Graff · 2002-12-22 12:22 · Score: 2

right .. because you should get everything for free, right?

No, actually. They had ads on that page and I'm sure that they get paid for those ads. I have no problem with them making money but I don't feel that the article was worth me giving them any data. If they can't make enough money without obtaining and selling the data then I would just as soon not read the article.

I hope the Washington Post is very successful and is swimming in cash, I just don't like being asked for or giving out data about myself.

--
Sapere aude!
Re:bad journalism alert by arkanes · 2002-12-22 14:55 · Score: 2

There's no way that they'll get any sort of "targeted" advertising from "Male, age blah, lives in blah". All that will do is ensure that you get "default" ads targeted for your demographic. The odds of me actually wanting any of those things is very small.
Re:bad journalism alert by Idarubicin · 2002-12-22 18:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

As a professional journalist, I can tell you that they use that information you input to profile you and sell it to advertisers. Try posting a google cache link next time instead.
What harm does it do for them to ask?
They can better target their advertising...so what? They know who's reading their web site--great. Maybe they'll write more stories that I'm interested in. If the /. link warns of registration ahead, then I know that I have to trade some of my information for their information. They're trying to make a buck, just like everybody else. Good for them. I know that it will be used to advertise at me. Besides--the most important point is this:
I can choose to lie, or not. Usually I just wait for a no-reg link to appear in the comments. It saves me from all these little dilemmas. (Dilemmae?)
I ask your opinion--as a professional journalist--who is going to pay you for your work if news organizations have trouble making money?

--
~Idarubicin
Re:bad journalism alert by babbage · 2002-12-23 01:45 · Score: 3, Interesting
Actually, these sites are well aware that a lot of people use junk data. That's okay -- it's not being used for anything critical at this point (and IMO will onlt be 'critical' if/when sites start moving to pay models en masse). The more interesting & useful side effect of having these registration models is that it provides an anchor to *far* better demographic modelling of the site.

From this point of view, you could tell them that you, NYT reader # 07593146, are a twelve eyed Tralfamadorean that lives on the fourth planet from Betelgeuse for all they'd care, because you're still giving them the data that they *really* need:
- Basic demographics: NYT reader #07593146 reads from one computer at home & two from work, tends to follow stories about computer technology, usually enters the site from $third_party, and can be relied on to view $number of ad impressions per day
- General ad targeting: a while back she/he/it was looking up travel stories about Europe, so they might be interested in airfare deals
- Specific ad targeting: she/he/it tends to spend time reading the car reviews and, while there, always lingers on station wagon ads & never follows links for SUVs. Knowing this, car advertisers might want to pay more to target station wagon ads at this customer, etc
- adapting to evolving preferences & technologies: It has been noticed lately that this user isn't registering any pop{up,under} ad impressions, suggesting that they've adopted some kind of filtering software (maybe Mozilla, but if so they're also spoofing the user-agent string). With that in mind, they might decide to stop trying to serve popups to this person, and deliver more intrusive traditional ads instead, leaving the popup inventory to users of different browser software for now.
- Sanity check: Gee, for a 12-eyed Tralfamadoerean, user #07593146 doesn't seem to interested in any of our stories on exobiology, astrophysics, geopolitics, or opthamology. Maybe we shouldn't trust that data... :)
Mission accomplished. This kind of profiling is all based on simple traffic analysis, and most of it isn't really possible without a pervasive registration scheme. This is a damn goldmine to web publishers. If people actually trusted the publishers & were honest on their profiles, that would be icing on the cake, but playing games like this really isn't as much of an obstacle as you might be hoping.

Hey, the people running the site are computer nerds too, they think the same way you are and know the same tricks you do. There is no race of Tralfamadoreans around Betelgeuse, but that doesn't stop them from being attentive... :)
--
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Re:bad journalism alert by Graff · 2002-12-23 02:33 · Score: 2

You don't have any problem with content that was paid for by advertising. What's wrong with you providing the content provider with a little basic demographic information to aid them in selling that advertising?

There is nothing wrong, they can ask if they want but I will not give out my correct information. I want to be as anonymous on the internet as possible. That is why I am happy that I have a dynamic IP, can accept cookies and then toss them out, and do other methods of foiling any tracking. I'm not anti-money, but I do value my anonymity more than I value the information they are providing.

If these providers were to stop providing their services because I am being anonymous then I wouldn't like it because I like to read news on the internet. However, I would still not trade my anonymity for news.

--
Sapere aude!
Re:bad journalism alert by Graff · 2002-12-23 02:44 · Score: 2

From this point of view, you could tell them that you, NYT reader # 07593146, are a twelve eyed Tralfamadorean that lives on the fourth planet from Betelgeuse for all they'd care, because you're still giving them the data that they *really* need:

Basic demographics: NYT reader #07593146 reads from one computer at home & two from work, tends to follow stories about computer technology, usually enters the site from $third_party, and can be relied on to view $number of ad impressions per day

It doesn't work quite that way, usually when I go to a site with registration I either get around their registration (ie: the google trick), or I simply take a second to create a bogus account with random information. I'll use this throw-away account for the session and forget it. It can't be traced to me easily since I have a dynamic IP and my browser is set up to hand out very little information.

Sure, they will get some information from me but my purpose is to make this information as hard to link to one particular person as possible. If they want to see how many people are viewing a tech article, cool. If they want to see if I'm the same guy who viewed a cooking article last week and a car washing article the week before, not cool. I would simply rather be as anonymous as possible in my web surfing habits.

--
Sapere aude!
Re:bad journalism alert by babbage · 2002-12-23 03:01 · Score: 2

FYI, the Google trick isn't as robust as you might hope -- they've got the partner=google token in the URL or whatever, but they also are able to check referral data as well. If they ever decide to get strict about this, you may end up having to spoof both the URL and $ENV{HTTP_REFERER} (figuring out how to do this is left as an exercise for the Lynx user :).
And as for your other tricks, sure, they mask you a bit -- much better than simply randomizing your registration profile. But the thing to keep in mind is that, in the absence of a registration scheme, all they can ever get is a bunch of disconnected data points. BY forcing people to register, even if just for one session, they can start connecting some of these dots. They might not learn as much as they'd like about you personally, but they might get a better idea of the demographics of people using your ISP (come on, there's not that much entropy in a dynamic IP address, they still know what virtaul block you live on).
In the end, it comes down to how much trouble is it worth to you to screw up their analysis. You really have to put in a lot of effort to get the results you're hoping for, and in the end what's the point? They still know more about you than they did without registration. Best case scenario that way -- they can't figure out who you are, so they sell what info they have to *all* the spammers, popup advertisers, etc. On the other hand, if you just roll with it, it's a lot less stressful for you, they get a better data set which can allow them to be more effective (profitable, efficient -- better chance that they won't have to start charging a subscription fee somewhere down the line), and the spam & ads you get at least stand a chance of not being so obnoxious.
Hey, it's your choice and your business, do as you please. I just can't help that fighting this is more than a little bit Quixotic... :)

--
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Re:bad journalism alert by arkanes · 2002-12-23 03:14 · Score: 2

I'm just using the word targeted in two different ways. What I would prefer is ads targeted to me( that is, if I have to have any at all). I do not want adds targeted to my demographic. They don't actually use that data to target anyway, they use it to sell ad space - "See, we're up 4% in the mid-20s male group, so give up lots of ads that show we're hip and young and new". I hate that kind of crap.
Re:bad journalism alert by Graff · 2002-12-23 06:34 · Score: 2

Hey, it's your choice and your business, do as you please. I just can't help that fighting this is more than a little bit Quixotic... :)

Ahh hell, a couple of minutes of my free time is worth tilting at a few windmills. :)

I totally agree with you though, you would have to put some serious time and effort into totally obscuring yourself. I perform the two or three actions that will give me a modicum of privacy and then I don't sweat the small stuff. Once the quest for privacy becomes an all-consuming lifetime pursuit then you should start looking over your shoulder for the men in the white coats. Or maybe the little green men, if that's the way your imagination runs...

--
Sapere aude!
Re:bad journalism alert by peter · 2002-12-24 19:30 · Score: 2

No, they'd probably just change the password on the account. It's not like the person who originally created the account loses anything by having their account taken away! Maybe it'll teach them no to post their next one on /. On NYT, the username "cypherpunks" is taken, but the password isn't "cypherpunks". Go figure.

You could always configure your browser or proxy to register a fake account and use it for accessing the site. Once you'd coded it up, it would only make loading pages from the site a bit slower, esp. if it used the same account for 10 minutes, instead of a new account for each image on the page :)

--
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes , .ca)

I'm getting one by DJayC · 2002-12-22 08:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

I think Santa got me one of the Evolution Mini-RC cars. I saw them on ThinkGeek waaaay back. It wasn't until recently I noticed the spam. As far as I can tell, the ones going around in spam are the junkier versions. I think it's just another attack of people trying to sell cheaper imitations much like the Furby craze, which spawned tons of imitations that lacked the features of the original.

Well, duh.. RC cars are worth it! by Nutter9182 · 2002-12-22 08:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

As a complete R/C addict, I'm quite happy to see some spam that I'm actually interested in for once. Although I'd never buy the junk that RadioShack or other such places are trying to pass off as RC cars - Yokomo make a mini RC car called the Puchimaru, which is of far higher quality.
http://www.yokomousa.com/kits/puchimaru/ index.html

So what's the problem with spam being used to sell RC cars anyway? It's not like it's the first thing to be advertised via spam, and it certainly won't be the last. After all, if they're getting 1/3 of the people who recieve the spam to buy the cars, people must actually not mind recieving this certain spam, right?

-Nutter

Re:Well, duh.. RC cars are worth it! by Dimensio · 2002-12-22 09:59 · Score: 2

So what's the problem with spam being used to sell RC cars anyway?

Spam is theft of service and trespass to chattel.

I will NEVER purchase ANY product advertised through spam, and I WILL work to have all spammer 'store' pages shut down, regardless of where they are hosted.

ALL spammers, without exception, are thieving criminal scum who deserve to die.

--
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!

Nuts to this stuff. by speedfreak_5 · 2002-12-22 08:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

If you want to spend money on an R/C car, don't go for this mini crap. My little brother can't handle the 1/10 scales very well yet, so he got one of these mini cars. They don't last very long. It was exchanged once because the steering went bad on him, and the second one did the same thing. Spend your money on a bigger R/C car. It's definitely worth it.

--
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!

Spam *Does* Pay by The+Turd+Report · 2002-12-22 08:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

"One of those contractors, Steve Harper, said he has sent 5 million e-mails so far. Earlier this month, he claims he sold 330,000 cars after sending a million ads in one day." And people wonder why spam still gets sent. It is because people buy stuff that is spamvertised.

--
Michael Loves Me!

Re:Spam *Does* Pay by WebMasterJoe · 2002-12-22 09:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

"One of those contractors, Steve Harper, said he has sent 5 million e-mails so far. Earlier this month, he claims he sold 330,000 cars after sending a million ads in one day." And people wonder why spam still gets sent. It is because people buy stuff that is spamvertised.

The first thing I thought of when I read that was: How do we get this guy's address and send him junk mail, like slashdot did to Alan Ralsky? Come on, folks, I want an address, I want an aerial map!

--
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Re:Spam *Does* Pay by windex · 2002-12-22 09:38 · Score: 2

The problem is that because spam costs the recipiant money and costs the sender almost nothing, only a very small return rate is required to keep the spammer in the black (or more) every year. The solution is to enforce token-based mail sending that has an associated real world cost, even if it's one the end-user can specify himself for unknown senders.

I hate them, buy real ones... by Magus311X · 2002-12-22 08:53 · Score: 5, Informative

Seriously. The ZipZaps, and most of the stuff from Tyco and Nikko aren't that fantastic.

Get the real deals. 1/18th, 1/10th, or 1/8th. Electric or nitro. On-road or off.

HPI
Kyosho
Serpent
Tamiya
Team Associated
Team X-Ray
Traxxas

RC racing has got to be one of the geekiest and most rewarding hobbies to boot. Meet a lot of nice people this way at events.

-----

Re:I hate them, buy real ones... by t0qer · 2002-12-22 09:00 · Score: 2

You can't knock these till you try em.

I got one from radio shack for my 5yro nephew. After the purchase I was obligated to test it for any bugs or defects. The one I "tested" had some sort of issue with it, I couldn't give my nephew something that was defective. So I decided to keep the defective one and get another one for my nephew.

Really fun taking bong rips and watching these little things run around in circles.
Re:I hate them, buy real ones... by Nutter9182 · 2002-12-22 09:08 · Score: 4, Informative

umm.. No link to Losi? No link to Yokomo? C'mon, you even linked to Tamiya, HPI, and Traxxas.. you've gotta link to the good manufacturers too. (Yea, I'm just kidding, Tamiya, HPI, and Traxxas all make some decent products) ;)
Losi Yokomo Traxxas (you have the wrong link)
RC racing definately has the perception of a geeky hobby, but I do consider it to be the one non-geek thing I do - being covered in dirt, oil, and fuel isn't very geeky imo. :) I'm glad to see that there's other RC racers here on /.

-Nutter
Re:I hate them, buy real ones... by Nutter9182 · 2002-12-22 09:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

A real RC car doesn't have to be 1/10 scale, there's plenty of "real" mini RC cars - the smallest (and coolest) is the Yokomo Puchimaru. There's also the Kyosho Mini-Z's, the HPI Micro RS-4's, and several others.
And $500? Talk about cheap. ;) 1/8 off-road cars can cost well over $1500, even each of my 1/10 off-road cars have about $1000 in them..

-Nutter
Re:I hate them, buy real ones... by Bios_Hakr · 2002-12-22 11:47 · Score: 2

I have a Kyosho eletric car, 1/12 scale, and I love the thing. It can run about 25mph (motor is old and cells haven't been matched in a long time), jump 6' off the ground, and generally just tear shit up like a mofo. I wouldn't give it up for anything.

Now, I work in a Network Control Center. If I even considered bringing anything that transmits RF, I'd be so fired. That is where my DigiQ Micro IR car comes into play. The car is all of about 1.5" long. It has a small dome on top to receive input from the transmitter.

The transmitter I have cost more than the radio gear for my Kyosho. It has tons of control functions like stepped acceleration and anti-lock breaking. The car itself has 2 motors connected directly to the rear drive wheels. The transmitter keeps track of what these motors are doing and can adjust each one seperately.

Now, I keep 2 of these things in my drawer at work. We can have a small race in the space of a single 2' square floor tile. Everyone at the office loves them. We have even started talking about forming DigiQ leagues for races during lunch.

Sure, big cars are more fun, but these things can be a blast anywhere. Hell, I even had a small race on the coach tray table of a damn airplane.

--
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.

Yet another "mainstream" pro-spam mention by Motherfucking+Shit · 2002-12-22 08:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was a bit dismayed to see that this article seemed to glorify spamming without mentioning any of the negative/annoying side effects. It was one big "spam works, spam == sales" promotion. The author essentially makes the case for spamming as a profitable enterprise - portraying spammers as ethikul bidnezmen - and I'm afraid that articles like this will only help to encourage the "mainsleaze" spammers.

From the article,

"If you see a product more than a couple of times on e-mail, that means that product is selling," Finn said. "No one would be sending it repeatedly if was not selling."

I say it's more like "No one would be sending it repeatedly if they'd actually sold out their product." Anything that needs to be spammed over and over, ad nauseum, isn't selling, thus requiring repeated spam runs in order for the spammer to make a decent ROI.

I groan at the thought of how many professional marketing types will read this article and decide that spam is the way to make _their_ product next year's must-have Christmas gift.

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.

Re:Yet another "mainstream" pro-spam mention by ZxCv · 2002-12-22 09:40 · Score: 2

Anything that needs to be spammed over and over, ad nauseum, isn't selling, thus requiring repeated spam runs in order for the spammer to make a decent ROI.

To me, it seems more logical that repeated ads for the same product means that it is selling. I wouldn't think spammers have the resources to repeatedly spam something that isn't making them immediate cash flow. It makes much more sense to me that the repeated ads are the result of the spammers seeing something sell and just getting greedy (and/or lazy).

--

Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Re:Yet another "mainstream" pro-spam mention by Motherfucking+Shit · 2002-12-22 10:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

To me, it seems more logical that repeated ads for the same product means that it is selling. I wouldn't think spammers have the resources to repeatedly spam something that isn't making them immediate cash flow. It makes much more sense to me that the repeated ads are the result of the spammers seeing something sell and just getting greedy (and/or lazy).
The article seems to imply that the spammers are "subcontractors" in a way for the manufacturer - that the manufacturer sells a spammer a lot of X thousand minicars, and then the spammer has to sell those minicars. If the spam was really working, you'd think the spammer would have sold his lot in the first run. If the spam was really working, there would be no need to spam again.

One good analogy I can think of is that a local furniture store chain which has been in business for 50+ years is going out of business. They've been "going out of business" for several months now (their situation is real, the patriarch gambled away the store's assets in the casinos, and they really are bankrupt and going out of business). The thing is, there are commercials on TV every day for the last few months screaming "we're closing our doors forever and we must get rid of our inventory! This week is your last chance to get amazing deals!" Yet week after week is the "last week" to buy. If the ads were working - if they were actually selling off the inventory - this whole thing would have wrapped up weeks if not months ago. It's the fact that they aren't selling the product that keeps them advertising.

Remember, spammers have unlimited resources - that's how they operate, by abusing other peoples' resources. It doesn't cost a spammer any more to make 10 spam runs than it costs him to make 1 spam run. The furniture store has to pay for their television ads and even they're still running commercials... Because they aren't selling their stock.

I tend to believe that spam I receive over and over indicates a product that's not selling, thus the need to keep re-advertising for it.

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
Re:Yet another "mainstream" pro-spam mention by _Sprocket_ · 2002-12-22 11:57 · Score: 2

To me, it seems more logical that repeated ads for the same product means that it is selling. I wouldn't think spammers have the resources to repeatedly spam something that isn't making them immediate cash flow.

Wow. Good point. Just think of all that money flowing out of third world countries due the the help of, now wealthy, random investors! Man. What a gold mine!

Of course - repetition of spam has nothing to do with sales. It has much, much more to do with the low cost nature of the medium. And the tactics involved.

i resisted too by jdkane · 2002-12-22 08:57 · Score: 2

Once in a while I receive a piece of spam that I don't mind. And this RC Car is the one out of about the last 1001 that I didn't mind receiving. Some companies do have innovative and/or entertaining and/or cool products. That RC car sure has been tempting though.
It's nice every once in a while when you receive spam for a product that stands on its own merit; it doesn't need to be hyped up or anything. It is what it is, plain and simple. If spam should be anything, then that is what is should be.

Voting With My Dollars by Myuu · 2002-12-22 08:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

Ya, I thought those were pretty cool, and I was just about to buy one until I start get those SPAM messages. I was so sick of deleting and sifting through them I said fsck them and bought something else.

--

forget it.

Re:Voting With My Dollars by Erasmus+Darwin · 2002-12-23 05:41 · Score: 2

So what're you boycotting? The brand of mini-R/C car that was advertised in the spam? All mini-R/C cars? Anyone who sells mini-R/C cars?
Seriously, the only entities it makes sense to boycott are the ones who are responsible for or who actively or passively endorse the spam. Odds are, the manufacturer and the legitimate retailers have no connection to the spam you received.

i've got an associated T3 truck by rebelcool · 2002-12-22 09:00 · Score: 2

and its one fine piece of engineering. Most of the fun is in building them, I think.

Its kind of unfortunate to see that they havent really come out with anything new since '97. Must've fallen on hard times.

--

-

My 4 yr old asked Santa for one of these by ross.w · 2002-12-22 09:01 · Score: 2

and he can't even read, so it wasn't because of spam.

--
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?

You gotta be kidding me. by FreeLinux · 2002-12-22 09:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ali estimates that for every e-mail Penn Media sends out, his firm wins one sale and retail stores win 20.

21 sales for every email sent???? Who the fuck is this guy trying to kid?????

Re:You gotta be kidding me. by dustman · 2002-12-22 09:26 · Score: 2

Ali estimates that for every e-mail Penn Media sends out, his firm wins one sale and retail stores win 20.

21 sales for every email sent???? Who the fuck is this guy trying to kid?????

They meant batches of emails, not individual emails. So when they send a spam batch to 100k email addresses (or however many they do), they result in 21 sales.
Re:You gotta be kidding me. by RickHunter · 2002-12-22 09:28 · Score: 2

I think he's including sales that have nothing to do with his e-mail at all. He's taking sales numbers, dividing by e-mail numbers, and then saying "because I sent out fewer e-mails than there are customers, I created 21 sales by sending out these e-mails. So I'm not a horrific parasite leeching off of legitimate businesses, REALLY!"

For anyone who believes him, I have (the MPAA-equivalent of) fifteen ("ordinary") CD-R drives to sell you! ;)

Re:What is up with Slashdot? by Rhubarb+Crumble · 2002-12-22 09:02 · Score: 2, Funny

Please stop sucking, I pay 10 dollars a month for this service

must resist....too easy....

;-)

RC Car Craze by fhic · 2002-12-22 09:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have a girlfriend who brought me back a bagful of these from Japan last summer. There's a reason why they're popular: they're fairly cool, relatively cheap, and they appeal to the geek-gadget demographic. And most of mine are still working, pretty odd for a cheap toy. I wonder how many of the second-generation knockoffs will still be working six months later.

Corelation . . . by kfg · 2002-12-22 09:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

is not causation.

Say it.

Rinse and repeat.

KFG

Re:Corelation . . . by Reality+Master+101 · 2002-12-22 09:25 · Score: 4, Funny

And in another startling discovery, saying something over and over doesn't make it applicable to every case! Good Lord!

--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Re:Corelation . . . by dillon_rinker · 2002-12-22 10:59 · Score: 2

Ah. So. You believe that there is some as-yet-unidentified phenomenon which both causes companies to advertise and to sell ltos of product. This is precisely the stand of the tobacco companies WRT smoking and lung cancer. Do you also believe that there is not necessarily a causatal relationship between smoking and lung cancer? Or do you perhaps believe that a tendency to lung cancer somehow CAUSES people to smoke?

While I agree with you in principle, I have to say that Occam's Razor pretty much requires mandates that marketing causes product purchase in this case.
Re:Corelation . . . by rodgerd · 2002-12-22 15:38 · Score: 2

"I know half my advertising is wasted, tell me which half!"

Lord Leverhulme
Re:Corelation . . . by Reality+Master+101 · 2002-12-22 17:32 · Score: 2

So, what would those questions prove to you? The question isn't whether people would prefer no advertising, the question is whether advertising works (why anyone would even question that is beyond my comprehension, but moving on...)

Here's an interesting factoid along these lines. You know those drop out cards in magazines that everyone despises? I hate them, you hate them, everyone hates them. So why do magazine publishers go out of their way to piss us off?

Because they work.

The return rate on drop out cards is approximately twice what glue-in cards are, something like 4% return versus 2% return.

--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Re:Corelation . . . by kien · 2002-12-23 11:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

The reason I'm interested in those questions is because I'm inclined to believe that people can't even imagine a world without (for lack of a better term) "push" advertising. I would be curious to discover what their choices would be if given alternatives.

I don't mean any offense, but your handle suggests to me that you're a very pragmatic person and if that's the case, good! We need pragmatic people to keep people like me from thinking too far out of the box. Your factoid re: magazine cards was very informative and suggests that you're more informed than I am about marketing issues. Have any links to info that I can read?

--K.

--
Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
Re:Corelation . . . by Reality+Master+101 · 2002-12-23 16:47 · Score: 2

I would be curious to discover what their choices would be if given alternatives.

I would imagine that people would tend to choose the most "goodies" for the least "cost", cost in this case being defined as anything that distracts them from the "goodies". I doubt that most people would go out of their way to watch advertising, although infomercials and shopping channels do give some evidence that there are some people who will watch solid advertising if it's dressed up enough. :)

Your factoid re: magazine cards was very informative and suggests that you're more informed than I am about marketing issues.

To tell you the truth, that knowledge is probably 10-15+ years old and comes from something I vaguely remember reading. Something along the lines of an article asking the question "why do magazines have drop-out cards when everyone hates them" or something. It was so long ago that I don't remember, but it just stuck in my mind as a prototypical example that effective marketing isn't always about making everybody happy.

--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.

Moral: Spam doesn't work! by gnovos · 2002-12-22 09:14 · Score: 2

Retailers get a free ride from guys like us," said John Nesbit, vice president of Chicago area Internet marketing firm Penn Media, whose business now includes buying the knockoff mini-cars from a Hong Kong factory and selling them on the Internet.

So the end result is, the spammers are doing all the advertising and the retailers are getting all the benifits. The moral of this story is that spam works... just not for the spammer! Ha ha, irony, gotta love it.

--
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"

clearly direct marketing works by zazas_mmmm · 2002-12-22 09:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Let me prefice with some basic statements:

The spam model is based off of the traditional direct marketing blanket campaign where you throw out as wide a net as possible and see what comes back.

While spam has a lower effectiveness than tradtional snail mail campigns, it nontheless pays becuase some people are interested in buying what the spammers sell (even when its a scam, unfortunately).

If you believe in the free market, then there is nothing inherently wrong with advertising in any medium (though in Soviet Russia there is...).

The problem with spam is the lack of regulation that balances consumer protection with the free speech rights of advertisers.

Clearly, as consumers we should be able to opt out of receiving spam without having our email address validated and resold, be confident that the advertisements we receive are not fraudulent, have transparency as to which company has sold our information, and importantly, have the ability to register to not receive any spam from any companies.

Spam is an easy target for criticizing as it's annoying and the lack of regulation makes it pernicious. Our focus shouldn't be to persecute those sending it, but to push for strict legislation that balances the rights of the consumer with the rights of the advertiser.

----
in Soviet Russia, sig signs off you.

--
I'm a friend of a friend of the working class.

Re:clearly direct marketing works by zentec · 2002-12-22 09:32 · Score: 2

There _are_ no free speech rights of advertisers as it pertains to my electronic mail address.

I simply do not want ANY mail that does not pertain to my business activities. Where do they get off thinking they have the right to steal the time it takes to read the header, address and possibly the text to determine if it's junk or not?
Re:clearly direct marketing works by zazas_mmmm · 2002-12-22 09:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

OK, I'll bite. If you read my post you'd have seen that I'm advocating your right to opt out of receiving ANY email marketing. This should be your right.

Does CDW have the right to send my busniness catalogs?

Making blanket restriction on who we can and can't speak to as individuals and businesses--and what we can and can't say--is a very bad idea.

Don't you think it's a much better idea to be able to say: "I don't want you to speak to me" or "I don't want any of you to speak to me" (and to have this enforcable by law) rather than have a law that simply says "none of you have any right to talk any of them?" There seems to me to be a big difference. My belief is that the rights of the individual and the rights of business are pretty closely intertwined. When we set up rules to govern fair practice in business, we should tread lightly so as not to constrict our rights as individuals.

----
in Soviet Russia sig signs off you

--
I'm a friend of a friend of the working class.
Re:clearly direct marketing works by Dimensio · 2002-12-22 10:05 · Score: 2

OK, I'll bite. If you read my post you'd have seen that I'm advocating your right to opt out of receiving ANY email marketing.

Why should anyone have to TELL spammers not to waste their network resources, disk space and time with unwanted junk mail? Why should I have to opt-out to the THOUSANDS of criminal spammers out there?

A bullet through the brain of a spammer is a much more effective "opt-out" solution, IMO.

--
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
Re:clearly direct marketing works by moncyb · 2002-12-22 13:24 · Score: 2

If you believe in the free market, then there is nothing inherently wrong with advertising in any medium

So, if there is a free market, then I would be allowed to walk in your house and staple fliers to your wall? I would be allowed to fill a dumptruck with pamphlets and spill them all on your front lawn? I don't think so. A free market doesn't mean property rights go out the window.
Re:clearly direct marketing works by King_TJ · 2002-12-22 15:55 · Score: 2

I'm not sure "strict legislation" will solve anything either. That's the typical "knee-jerk reaction" to problems. "There oughta be a law!" No - maybe not.

I really think the spam issue needs to be controlled better at the ISP level. Why allow someone to send out thousands and thousands of emails in bulk to begin with? Spammers only find their methods cost-effective because they aren't getting charged much of anything to "blanket" the net with their messages.

Meanwhile, ISPs bear the burden - and it doesn't appear some of them really mind. Perhaps it's time for automated systems to be put in place which packet-sniff to figure out the types of traffic flowing over the lines, and cut off large amounts of email traffic coming from a single sender? Products like the PacketShaper already seem to be able to do this for MP3s, streaming video, and other types of traffic.

Any normal user shouldn't have spam-like levels of outgoing email.

About the registration by clump · 2002-12-22 09:20 · Score: 2

The Washington Post wants to know your age, ZIP code and sex, and even provides you with hints on the first two.

I do confess that I do provide false information to Washington Post on that page. IE, 1965/20171. I don't want web sites knowing that much information about me. It all seems stupid because with enough patience you can derive that and much more with an IP address.

Write down those names... by Graff · 2002-12-22 09:23 · Score: 2

From the article:

John Nesbit, vice president of Chicago area Internet marketing firm Penn Media

Jaffer Ali, Penn Media's chief executive

One of those contractors, Steve Harper, said he has sent 5 million e-mails so far. Earlier this month, he claims he sold 330,000 cars after sending a million ads in one day.

Harper, who works out of Dover, Del.

Patrick Finn, executive vice president of marketing at Hi-Speed Media Inc., an e-mail marketing firm in Sherman Oaks, Calif

--
Sapere aude!

Zip Zaps Vs. Women by vudufixit · 2002-12-22 09:26 · Score: 4, Funny

Unlike women, Zip Zaps are: 1. Easy to pick up 2. Low cost 3. Low commitment 4. Low maintenance 5. Have a short recharge interval

Re:Zip Zaps Vs. Women by adb · 2002-12-22 09:44 · Score: 4, Funny

Unlike women, Zip Zaps...Have a short recharge interval
You're clearly not operating your women correctly.
Re:Zip Zaps Vs. Women by istartedi · 2002-12-22 17:39 · Score: 2

I shudder to think of what you are doing with Zip Zaps that would invite such a comparison.

--
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?

Not all that bad by fleener · 2002-12-22 09:29 · Score: 4, Informative

I bought some of the cheap non-name-brand China imports at a local mall merchant for $15 and saw a couple national chain stores in the same mall selling them. Only after purchase did I go back and look at those spams to see I bought the same product.

From my point of view, I supported a local merchant who imported the product, avoided giving my money to a retail chain corporation, and avoided giving money to a spammer. The cars are fine. In the same mall I would have paid $21 *more* for a MicroSizer. And the $20 Radio Shack ZipZaps are out-of-stock until after Xmas.

As a gadget, these cars lose their luster quickly for an adult. For my children, they couldn't care less whether it's a MicroSizer, ZipZap, or noname junk. They'll never want upgradeability. I bought 4 cars for $15 each, totally $60. I saved $84, thankyouverymuch.

Is that so? by NoMoreNicksLeft · 2002-12-22 09:39 · Score: 5, Funny

"If you see a product more than a couple of times on e-mail, that means that product is selling," Finn said. "No one would be sending it repeatedly if was not selling."

Ironically, the latest Kinsey survey reports that the average american penis length has increased to an astounding 11.5 inches, Forbes is delcaring that the number of millionaires in the USA has jumped 19,422% since last year due to perfectly legal Nigerian banking loopholes, and this slashdot poster has 19, count them, 19 barely legal blonde sluts hovering around the computer desk at this very minute.

Re:Is that so? by NoMoreNicksLeft · 2002-12-23 00:58 · Score: 2

Didn't mean to be serious... but if they don't work, and never will, then they aren't selling, they're conning. Defrauding.

That this fool loves an advertising medium favored by con artists, speaks for itself.

Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by zentec · 2002-12-22 09:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

It simply legitamizes the business of advertising through a cost-shifted model.

While the incremental cost to the end user (victim) is immeasurable on a single email basis, over a prolonged period the time spent weeding through the trash that comes in via email has a very real cost in lost time/productivity.

I've seen many arguments that there needs to be a balance between the rights of the recipient and the rights of the advertiser. Sad fact is, in any circumstance where any of the cost of the delivery of the advertisement is shifted to me and without my consent, it's consumer fraud. The adversiser has no right to take one microsecond of my time in effort to delete their advertisements from my email box, or to force me to get up from my chair to answer the phone or toss their ad from my fax machine.

Telemarketing, spam, junk faxes or stapling posters to my tree, the costs of delivery are heaped upon me and I'm sick and tired of it.

As far as spam goes, it's time to start pushing for the death of SMTP. It was nice when the Internet was sheltered, but it's now part of the real world and just like the real world, there's plenty of morons to cause problems.

The biggest problem with SMTP is that it has too much implicit trust. Spammers take advantage of this and either falsify headers or steal relay services. Giving priority to systems that have valid credentials and all but ignoring those that fail basic trust guidelines will cause spammers to play fair, or go broke. Those spammers that play fair will have no alternative but to honor remove requests or find their trust level set to zero.

Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by LostCluster · 2002-12-22 10:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

The key change I would like to see is a model in which the SMTP server is replaced with one that must hold the "payload" content of the message, and instead send a token message that contains the IP address at which the full message resides, other header data, and a reduced hash of the message contents so that the message cannot be tampered with once its been "sent" without being rejected.

Once an server is identified as having sent spam, the owner of the server can nuke the payload message, therefore making the tokens a pointer to nowhere, so client software ignores the message. Or, if the server owner is not cooperative, a blackhole can be applied to the server, causing client software to discard tokens sent by this server (even for not-yet-read messages that were sent before the alert was issued) so that the message content is never delivered to the user.

Of course, the few users who actually want spam can continue to get it so long as the sender can find bandwidth willing to allow it, and the users decide to ignore any blacklisting. Nobody's first amendment rights are being denied, just every step in the process gets a chance to opt out.
Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by Fantastic+Lad · 2002-12-22 12:35 · Score: 2

You're not far enough down the plant stalk there. I think the root goes much deeper.

I think it's long past time to push for an end of commercialism and mass manufacturing.

No. Nix that. Mass manufacturing in and of itself is not evil. The problem is something deeper. . .

I think it's long past time to put an end to Greed. Greed is a disease.

Until then, I quite like the SMTP system. The microseconds I spend deleting bullshit mail are a price I am prepared to pay for the conveniences of email. Having my email sent directly to me is cool. Whatever other system people come up with might not be as reliable, whereas any new system WOULD without question be quickly compromised by greed. The enemy you know. . .

-Fantastic Lad
Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by LostCluster · 2002-12-22 13:17 · Score: 2

Wow... there's a student who got an A+ in FUD 101.

Saying that a new protocol for e-mail is so flawed it'll be compromised by greed before such a protocol is even proposed by anybody.

Don't worry, nobody's gonna take SMTP away from you. It's just that once a new protocol is deployed, only spammers will be remaining on the old protocol. When the siganal to noise ratio gets too low for you, don't worry, we'll still let you change your mind and switch over.
Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by iggymanz · 2002-12-23 05:17 · Score: 2

We can blackhole servers now, I do for my domain with this list
Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by LostCluster · 2002-12-23 06:26 · Score: 2

Yes, but you can't blackhole by user now, just full server. A present blackhole also cannot cancel spam that has already left that server.

Besides, what you give there is a list of domains. There is no requirement a spam originate from the domain it claims to be from, or that an SMTP server be associated with any domain at all.
Re:Mr. Hi-Speed Mailer Loves This Article by iggymanz · 2002-12-26 13:59 · Score: 2

yes, that's sadly true...but this list *does* block most of it, and that's a start. What often happens it that spammers get kicked out of ISP and have to go to large bulk mailers.

And my subject line regular expressions in do block most of the rest (will soon get a page up for that too, I'm building automated system for adding to database and generating the web pages in the hopes that they can help people out) I can't just post the config file because I also have other blocks in there for personal reasons that might not be wanted by most people

Web Bugs... by davinc · 2002-12-22 09:45 · Score: 2, Informative

They are little 1x1 images encoded with names that are basically serial numbers associated with your e-mail addres. If you view HTML based e-mail, the server records that you have viewed the page as soon as the gif is requested.

Just looking at junkmail counts as a success for spammers in this case. Oh, and you get added to special lists of people who actually read junkmail.

In other news, cart seen pushing horses... by LostCluster · 2002-12-22 09:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think we have cause and effect backwards...

Zip Zaps and the like are this year's "hot toy" just like Tickle Me Elmo and Cabbage Patch Kids have been in years past. Kids love them, so parents have got to go find them... stores everywhere are selling out, they can't make these things fast enough.

This popularity is not the result of spam, instead spammers are jumping on board trying to sell the product that parents would do anything, include pay over-inflated prices to a spammer, to get. It wouldn't surprise me if half the "Get your Zip Zaps from me!" spam turns out to be scams, yet parents are willing to take that risk at the hope of getting the toy little Jimmy must have.

Whenever anything gets this popular, spammers will be there to exploit the image.

Re:But, It IS Profitable. by Dimensio · 2002-12-22 10:01 · Score: 2

They're winning now. When people like Alan Ralsky are found with multiple gunshot wounds to the head, over and over again, they might think twice.

One of these days, someone is going to get fed up and give spammers just what they deserve.

--
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!

How to bypass the registration by Skapare · 2002-12-22 10:02 · Score: 2

When I first saw the story headline, I clicked on the link as soon as I got to it, without reading on. I read the 3 pages of the story before coming back to Slashdot. Then I read that it needed registration. What? I didn't have to register. So I went back and now I have to register. OK, so I tried a few more times. It seems that in their farm of servers, some are not configured to ask for registration, yet. So just keep hitting it a few times with the same URL, and you'll eventually get a server that doesn't hassle you about your private info.

--
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars

Amount of email is proportinal popular? by cant_get_a_good_nick · 2002-12-22 10:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

"If you see a product more than a couple of times on e-mail, that means that product is selling," Finn said. "No one would be sending it repeatedly if was not selling."

I guess breast enlargement for men is selling, 'cause I'm a guy, and I get a couple of these a week. Hmm, down from a couple a day, so I guess they're not quite as popular, but still....

People actually read their spam? by Joe+Tie. · 2002-12-22 10:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm so sick of spam, giant annoying flash ads, ten minutes of comercials before a movie I payed to watch starts, and related things that I can't take it anymore. I eventually broke down and just decided one day that I'm taping tv so I can fast foreward through commercials, going to movies late or just walking out for a while if the movie hasn't started yet no matter how crazy the people I go with think I am, and keeping flash turned off. It's actually turned out rather well in the long run, as I was quickly reminded that books will not only more often have a better story to tell than most television, there's no comercials!

And that's why I'm surprised to not see much more of an outcry among mainstream advertisers about things like spam. I admitidly must have had a pretty low tolerance to start with, but everyone has a breaking point and this constant bombardment of brain numbing noise could ruin it for everyone if it gets too prevalent.

--
Everything will be taken away from you.

Re:People actually read their spam? by Mitreya · 2002-12-22 18:17 · Score: 2

ten minutes of comercials before a movie I payed to watch starts
Actually, believe it or not, this is a matter of perspective. I would hate to see commercials before the movie, but previews (which is what you mean, I think) are actually good... I enjoy watching previews - that's the only way I learn what new movies are about... I would even pay .50c or $1.00 for a 10 previews of the movies that might interest me. (Not to mention that occasionally, if the movie is bad, all the interesting parts and worthy jokes are actually concentrated in the preview!)
People actually read their spam?
I tend to read spam now. It is almost as good as daily joke subscription... Things like "get privacy and free porn with our software" in one email are truly amusing... :)

Have Your Micro RC and Eat it Too by Mulletproof · 2002-12-22 10:27 · Score: 5, Informative

Just because the spammers are ruining your day doesn't mean you have to forego the item completely... Buy a different manufacturer/model. I highly recommend the original Bit Char-G Micro RCs at either your local japanese toy shop, or lacking that-- a listing on eBay will do the trick well enough. $25-$30 is generally the going price and yeah, the instructions are in Japanese, but if you can't figure out the large obvious pictorials, you shouldn't be using a computer anyway (in other words some assembly required, takes under 10min for the average first time user). Bit Char's were around before the micro RC craze here and they're good quality and well supported. Upgradable motors (up to 30,000 rpm!) and tires in addition to the bodies. Good stuff.

What gets me is the number of people who let spam alter their shopping habits. Avoiding the seller I can understand. He spammed you, you're pissed. But boycotting the entire brand? Come on now. The manufacture most likely doesn't have a clue and even if they did, there's not a whole lot they could do about it. So just get your present as planned form either the store or a more reputable website. Easy, ne?

--
You need a FREE iPod Nano

Spam? by NightRain · 2002-12-22 10:39 · Score: 2

Well, the spam certainly seems to be keeping itself to country boundaries. I'm in Australia, and not only have I never seen one of the cars the article is talking about, I've never seen a spam ad for it either...

Targetted spam? Why can't they do it with the rest of the spam, all of which seems to be trying to sell stuff to people in the US.

Re:*Can* Block Legit Email? by eaolson · 2002-12-22 10:46 · Score: 2

We ditched SPEWS and started using SpamCop's BL. Much nicer

Except that the SCBL is currently experimental. It specifically says it should not be used to block mail.

The fact that you are posting as an AC makes me strongly suspect you are one of the spammer sockpuppets running AntiSpews.

I don't use it (don't have my own server) but as far as I'm concerned, SPEWS is doing a great thing. Namely, applying pressure to ISPs to not support spam in the first place.

immunity by Scrameustache · 2002-12-22 11:03 · Score: 2

Mini RC spam you say? I haven't gotten those...then again, I don't read my spam.

On the other hand, those mini RCs are sweet! I'd like one, spam or no.

Hmmm...maybe I can find out wich particular brand is using spam and only support the competitors? Anybody care to inform me of the name of the non-spamming brands (if there are any)?

--

You can't take the sky from me...

don't worry it will all get worse. by twitter · 2002-12-22 11:20 · Score: 2, Troll

I was a bit dismayed to see that this article seemed to glorify spamming without mentioning any of the negative/annoying side effects.

Don't worry, M$NBC will make sure that only a few "legitimate" operations will be able to spam you. To do so, they will pump up the problems of unregulated email servers or some other stupid pap. How else can you extend your monopoly into the net? Works for both M$ and NBC. Then all your mail boxes will look like your AOL or Hotmail. At least then they might stop paying people to send out porn spam. Annoy people enough and you can screw them as you please when you claim to be their savior. Good stuff, eh?

--

Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

I got one before I ever saw spam about them by mark-t · 2002-12-22 11:22 · Score: 2

I first heard of these back in early October from someone at college and bought two of them from the hobby shop near where I live.

They are GREAT fun... especially if you have cats (evil laugh).

In spite of what the spam says, they *are* still available in stores... I checked right after I started getting these spams claiming they couldn't be bought anywhere else. Check your local hobby shop if you're interested.

--
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'

Choices by Fjord · 2002-12-22 11:23 · Score: 2

Hmmm, I can supply fake info, or support MS via the advertising on their site.

Choices choices

--
-no broken link

Re:*Can* Block Legit Email? by spacefight · 2002-12-22 11:34 · Score: 2

If you use the spamcop BlackList, then you are completley driven by a monkey on speed. Anyone can report spam with spamcop and it ends up in the spamcop BlackList. Imagine if you miss a securityfocus posting onto one of the sf lists and you can't update your stuff right away. Now tell me, would your boss like THAT?

Spam using URL's by phorm · 2002-12-22 11:38 · Score: 2

I love the ones that tell you to "check this site", and it includes your email address as part of a GET string. I just go to the main site to find the webmaster/info email (or use a whois), and sign in happily using:
www.someurl?somebullshit=blahvlah&id=webmaster@spa mmersdomain.com

I wonder how many of these idiots are actually getting their own SPAM. It wouldn't make me the least bit sad to discover that 99% of employees at spam-friendly inc are themselves getting spammed.

Am I the only one... by NineNine · 2002-12-22 11:50 · Score: 2

... who hasn't ever heard of these things?

Re:Am I the only one... by sporty · 2002-12-22 15:44 · Score: 2

Some people are less prone to spam. That and they don't read slashdot everyday :)

--
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

Fuel by Ogerman · 2002-12-22 11:55 · Score: 3, Funny

The Washington Post is reporting that the latest toy craze, miniature radio-controlled cars, is actually fueled by spam

That's funny... I always thought those miniature RC cars were fueled by watch batteries or triple-A's. I guess it's like they say.. there are endless uses for the ham in a can! (:

Re:Fuel by Lxy · 2002-12-23 04:52 · Score: 2

HAM? There's ham in there?

I thought it was just pink sludge. Could've fooled me.

--

There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq

Review by Daniel+Rutter · 2002-12-22 12:14 · Score: 5, Informative

People who'd like to see what a representative mini-car actually has in it, by the way, might like to check out my review of one, here.

Re:Yes exactly. by Jeff+DeMaagd · 2002-12-22 12:30 · Score: 2

and another stupid slashdot pick

Isn't "stupid" redundant to "slashdot pick"?

Re:No me. by fleener · 2002-12-22 13:24 · Score: 2

You operate under the false impression that the spammers are the same people selling the cars in shopping malls.

I get Linux and Windows and Norton spams. Does that mean I should only use Macintosh without anti-virus software? Gimmeabreak.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA... by LostCluster · 2002-12-22 13:27 · Score: 2

If a product is selling, that means you'll see it on e-mail more than a couple of times.

Hey, wait a second... that version makes sense, could it be the original that is the one that is backwards?

Spam gets its reward by shokk · 2002-12-22 13:59 · Score: 2

To every one of you that swallowed the mini-RC hype and bought one for yourself, a friend, or kids, please don't whine when you get spam for these latest crazes now that spam has been officially validated as a way for companies to sell their wares:

1) A new money making scheme! Send me your wallet and I'll show you how one can do it.

2) Big busted babes go sucky sucky!

3) President Mgabe Mambo needs you to send money to save his country.

4) HaHaHa

5) Bigger longer faster...not the history of rocketry, but something else going off.

6) Viagra for all!!! Now with more ginseng and ginko. WWW.Amateur-Pharmaceuticals-Inc.Com

7) Stock ticker ABCXYZ is hott! Low trading fees.

8) Mortgage your life away before rates go up!

9) Get in on the ground floor...amateur elevator cams.

10) Thought you'd like to see this...virus wipe out your hard drive.

11) Can't handle your credit cards? Why cut them up when you can saddle yourself with another loan? Operators standing by to collect bank account numbers.

--
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

Proves we still need the death penalty.. by fanatic · 2002-12-22 14:42 · Score: 2

..for anyone who buys anything as the result of receiving spam. (Though it's arguable that soneone who receives a spam, then buys it somewhere else, is not quite as guilty...)

--
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody

Re:No me. by fleener · 2002-12-22 14:43 · Score: 2

The Norton spams are not from Norton. They're spammers selling products. That doesn't mean the products are evil.

Re:WP online by MacAndrew · 2002-12-22 14:56 · Score: 2

It clears the first time you do it, by setting a cookie. Seems to me the requirement (anonymous poll really) goes back a few months. Evidently they are looking for numbers to develop a revenue model. When I cancelled my print edition Post, mostly because the delivery people kept putting it in the wet gutter, the friendly fellow on the phone asked whether I used the online version, said their marketing people were "interested."

They recently raised the price of the daily print edition from 25 to 35.

I bought one.... but not because of spam. by Sandman1971 · 2002-12-22 16:23 · Score: 2

I got one of these about 2 months ago. I never got one piece of spam advertising one of these things. What peaked my interest was actually a slashdot article on the subject. I also noticed a few ads for it in the newspaper (Radio Shack flyers, etc...) that same week (after it appeared on /. ). It's possible that these appeared on slashdot and flyers because of spam, but I know I didn't purchase one directly because of it. I thought these would make a great toy for my cats and it is, They go crazy chasing it around. 2nd best cat toy ever made (the first being the laser pointer. They could chase that thing for hours). I brought it to work one day and now a few of my co-workers went out and got themselves one. They discovered how fun it is to play with them. So I can pretty much vouch that they didn't buy theirs because of spam, but from word of mouth and trying it out.

--
It's better to burn out than to fade away

Has anyone dissected one of these cars yet? by CSG_SurferDude · 2002-12-22 16:42 · Score: 2

Has anyone dissected one of these cars yet?

As somebody who builds robots in my "oh so copious spare time", I wonder what is in them (Specifically, not generally) and whether they might be worth buying just for the motors and capacitors....

and yes, I googled it, but I must not be using the right search terms or something.... :-(

--

LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!

Re:Has anyone dissected one of these cars yet? by EnglishTim · 2002-12-22 22:55 · Score: 2

The one I have has single Nimh cell, a tiny motor (probably similar to those used in pagers and mobile phones for vibration) a couple of coils and a tiny magnet. In mine there is no proportional control. One of the cool things is that a bunch of people have started using these as the basis of tiny indoor remote controlled planes - in fact I bought mine specifically to rip apart for that purpose. Unfortunately the car itself was so much fun that I haven't had the heart so far to do anything with it ;-)

Anyway, There's a very interesting thread at www.rcgroups.com about converting these things into aeroplanes - definitely worth a look. There are also some guys trying to make them into helicopters, although I think they may need rather more more modification than the planes do...

Quotes and information by cluge · 2002-12-22 17:08 · Score: 2

To extend its reach further, Penn Media pays 25 contractors to send the ads to millions of e- mail addresses they have purchased from various Web sites.

Contractors = small time spam artists that will obtain dial up accounts and use them until kicked off OR people using open relays and korean school proxy servers.

Of the people mentioned in the article
1. John Nesbit john@pennmedia.com (Spam Haus)
PennMedia
19001 S Old LaGrange Rd.
Mokena, IL 60448
USDomain servers in listed order:

Notice the nice name servers. I'll be adding whole chunks of these guys to my ACLs (If they aren't already there)

NS1.SENDOUTMAIL.COM 209.125.134.10
NS2.SENDOUTMAIL.COM 207.241.30.136
NS3.SENDOUTMAIL.COM 209.125.134.140

The also mention another spammer named Steve Harper. He lives in Dover Del.

Now, I won't buy one of these cars, because doing so promotes the sh*t I get in my inbox. See my other slashdot posts on the subject, these fools won't stop unless we take the consequences out of the cyber world and put them into the real world. So does anyone think that certain people (or ALL people for that matter) at pen media needs to get a free subscription to the NAMBLA ? Anyone in Oregeon or another state with strong anti-spam laws get spam mentioning RC cars? Want to press charges? Any Lawyer out there want to file a civil case against these guys for harrassament? How many times do I have to be harassed or ask to be "removed from the list" before I can sue? How many times does my mailserver have to reject mail for addresses that don't exist and have never existed before it's a Denial of Service attack?

Cluge

--
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.

I'm on the Wrong Spam Lists by IHateEverybody · 2002-12-22 17:59 · Score: 2

I've never seen one of these RC car spams. All I ever get is offers for viagra and horny teens.

--
Does this .sig make my butt look big?

Re:Avoiding the seller by Technician · 2002-12-22 18:15 · Score: 2

Hmmm,,
I see a new spam business model here.
1 Be a Wholesaler
2 Spam retail
3 Take Wholesale orders from frantic retailers
4 Profit!

--
The truth shall set you free!

Wow by joto · 2002-12-22 21:18 · Score: 2

Ali estimates that for every e-mail Penn Media sends out, his firm wins one sale and retail stores win 20.

Wow, A 2100 percent efficiency on advertisement! For every spam they send out , the recipient buys 21 RC cars on average! For anyone still believing there is any correlation between these numbers, please, use some common sense! The statement is so silly it just hurts to just think about the mental state of the person uttering it.

Talking Toilet Paper Roll that was mentioned by phunhippy · 2002-12-22 23:10 · Score: 2

Umm guys.. gurls... screw the RC car.. I bought the talking toilet paper roll.. I've been waiting for years for somthing like that.. now when my friends use my toilet(they love my heat lamp above it, somthing about pushing one out is easier or somthing), I can have my voice saying really horrible stuff to them.. like:
MMmmm tastes like chicken
do you gotta splatter everywhere you shit man?
damn it stinks worse then your last GF in here.

etc etc etc.. this will provide me with hours of fun :)

It's not just the spam I dislike... by Pflipp · 2002-12-22 23:23 · Score: 2

...it's all this Chinese spam!

--
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]

Mod site for tiny rc cars by prototype · 2002-12-23 01:02 · Score: 2

For those that enjoy tweaking and want to push your cars to the max, there's an entire site dedicated to car mods. You can find it here.

It includes mods like increasing the range of your racer to 120', run times of 20 minutes, chassis raising (and lowering) and all kinds of silly stuff. Also you can find conversions from racer to airplane and helicopter.

Enjoy!

Heresay by msheppard · 2002-12-23 01:43 · Score: 2

I refute that the craze is fueled by spam, and propose that the craze is fueling spam. I realize this is difficult to prove or even investigate. Saying that the former is true though could be applied to the viagra craze as well. I imagine the reporters could find a SHRED of evidence that people are motivated to buy one of these R/C cars from a store becuase they got a few spams, but this may be a statistically insignificant event.

M@

--
Krispy Cream is people

Open letter to Washington Post by Antity · 2002-12-23 04:08 · Score: 2

This is what I just sent:

From: [me] To: webmaster@washingtonpost.com Cc: webnews@washingtonpost.com Subject: Sorry, you lost me as a reader Dear Washington Post team, today, for maybe the first time I followed a link to a story on washingtonpost.com. First, the site wouldn't let me read the article. It wanted my birthyear, sex, ZIP and country. bah! I never give data like this out just to be able to read some story. I don't even give that out to REAL people I meet in chatrooms at the first date, so please why should I tell a webserver? So I just pressed "Go", thinking it would lead me to the article. Second mistake: Another browser window opened. Why the hell? Why does your site have to open a NEW window just to display a story? And my third problem with your site: When this new window had opened, it didn't even display the story but only informed me that I won't be able to read the article because I had Cookies turned off. WTF?! Why does a website need COOKIES just to let a reader view a simple, single article? After all that, I had lost all my interest in reading your article. It might be good, it might even be a really outstanding piece of journalism, but I'm afraid I will never find out (and I'm experiencing a rather strange feeling that lots of other potential readers already did - or did not - the same but didn't feel the need to send you an email about it). I think there'll be quite some time until I will follow a link or visit washingtonpost.com again. I'm sorry, but I'm interested in good information, not in playing games with strange web designer ideas. Sorry, really. kind regards [me]

--
42. Easy. What is 32 + 8 + 2?

As the spammer and article puts it.. by vidnet · 2002-12-23 05:27 · Score: 2

"No one would be sending it repeatedly if was not selling."

Harper keeps a close eye on the numbers because he gets a cut from each sale his e-mail blitz initiates.

So much for the "They'll send it anyways" or "They make the same whether you read it or not" arguments.

And just to get a +1 Troll for bashing spam: wget -q -O - $URL | sed -e 's/internet marketing firm/spamming bastards/g'

The Marketing Company by herbierobinson · 2002-12-23 22:20 · Score: 2

This is the marketing company that is paying 25 spammers to promte the toys:

PennMedia
19001 S. Old LaGrange Rd.
Suite 400
Mokena, IL 60448
http://pennmedia.com/
Voice: (708) 478-4500, Fax: (708) 478-5470
PENN is located in the south suburbs of Chicago.

Jaffer Ali, CEO, Jaffer@PennMedia.com
Roy Weiss, Executive Vice President, Roy@PennMedia.com
Tom Zegar, VP of Network Relations, Tom@PennMedia.com
Mary Kolacki, mary@pennmedia.com
John Nesbit, VP
Wes Burnett, netsol contact, wes@pennmedia.com and wes@shagmail.com

They have also registered SENDOUTMAIL.COM.

I wonder if http://www.catalogrequest.com/ is also located in a Chicago suburb.

--
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us

Fucking idiot moderators by adb · 2002-12-29 15:54 · Score: 2

That was an utter stock Slashdot stupid fucking joke that's been told 34912093 times before, but you moderated it "Funny". Fuck off and die.

Slashdot Mirror

RC Car Craze: The Spam Connection

143 of 302 comments (clear)