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Linus Is A Hero
oever writes "The dutch broadcaster KRO has chosen 365 modern saints or heros. One of them is Linus Torvalds, chosen for his work in on Linux and 'Open Source'. Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended."
I think that guy is on crack... you look at the others he choose? James Taylor?? Tina Turner?? whats the world coming too...
I have already said I worship in the Church of Linux.
This is going to make those "it's not a religious" arguments a lot harder!
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... Flash is the most horribly evil thing ever to come out of the computer industry. It chokes the flow of free information and turns pages (of information) into giant full-screen animated talking commercials.
:)
That rant's over for now, so I'll just have to ask for somebody to get a text list or something.
If so, then does does that make this a hit list too?
They left out Frank Zappa!
I can't even read the list.
All I get is a huge grey block in the middle of a black screen.
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Oh my lord... what were they think...err, drinking?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Go Linus!
:)
I always knew he rocked, that's why I named my cockatiel after him!
I also named my fish after Alan Cox... but the fish died, so no wonder he didn't make the list
I can hear RMS now... "you should refer to Linus as a GNU/Hero."
"And like that
I want the pattern to his superhero outfit released so I can see how I stack up.
Trolling is a art,
I still think RMS should have pushed to get a cameo role in one of the LOTR films... Might need some makeup to look more believable, but you know, they can work miracles these days...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
Bruce Springsteen, Bill Cosby, George Harrison, Wim Kok (ex Dutch PM), Pim Fortuijn (ex literally), Mothers (yes, Mothers), Steven Spielberg and Kelly van der Veer (a trans-sexual photo model) as well as 330 other Dutch semi-famous or unknown people, and half a dozen worthwhile people, such as MLK, Danny Kaye and Nelson Mandela (also Steve Biko). Oh and Oprah and Tiger, too!
Its GNU/Linus!
Why is the parent a troll? The post was on topic (talks about why RMS was not credited) and quite reasonable (with a couple of explanations of how single individuals get fame for collective efforts).
Methinks RMS deserves to be much more favourably viewed, if not for his philosophy (it is very revolutionary even today) or his social contributions (FSF), at least for his technical contributions (emacs, gcc, the whole GNU toolset).
Modding the parent as troll is very unfair.
S
Two other free compilers:
lcc
TenDRA
If not gcc, there would be even more free compilers. Writing a compiler is not as simple as writing another ICQ client, but it's still not rocket science.
Yeah, and RMS doesn't have a house. He needs MIT. Maybe we should start calling him MIT/Stallman.
> Linus Is A Hero
:
And today, the hero is working for one of the companies behind Palladium
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6487
I posted this on the 'linuxnewbie' forums some time ago, but it curiously disappeared. I've received no mail from the moderators and I've really verified that my message had really been posted. My interpretation is that some linuxnewbie moderator was a Linus fan.
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
I'd much rather see "This year's best people" on the cover of Time or People magazine instead of "This year's most scantly-clad." (a la Jennifer Lopez)
Looking through the pictures on that website, these look like people I would actually like to meet (save the black guy with sunglasses and purple hair) as opposed to the plastic celebrities we're constantly bombarded with by the media in the States.
Because looking at the other entries makes me feel the list is not even moderated and doesn't even "comply" with the morals of the Catholic Broadcast Organisation (KRO, but translated). There's one picture of a Turkisch woman ("Nilgün Yerli") with a subscript of "Turkse Troel", which could be considered quite derogatory (near the meaning of "Slut"). Others on the list also don't come close to the "pureness" of a saint, at least not from what I can tell.
;-)
And let's face it, people like Linus as a representative and leader of the kernel development, but I suspect nobody on the kernel mailinglist will call Linus a saint
(Sorry to burst your bubble...)
Simon
This is not about computers, but culture in general and History in particular. History of computing, but bigger than computers and yet not technical at all.
BTW, has nothing to do with the Americas in general or the USNA in particular, as this is a Dutch site without even an English version.
He, he was not only the bootloader writer, he is the kernel writer and maintainer. The bootloaders are called LILO or GRUB, not Linux.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
No one says Tim Berners-Lee invented the Internet. I've never seen any media claim TBL invented the Internet. Everyone says, rightly, that he invented the World Wide Web (though I don't think they understand what that means, that he invented the set of protocols used by web browsers and web servers).
Besides, everyone knows that Al Gore invented the Internet.
In all seriousness, you've got everyone and his brother claiming to have invented the Internet, when what matters is who invented TCP/IP.
It is the same way with Linus and RMS, with RMS creating most of the base for Linux, but since Linus was the original bootloader writer, people assume he "invented" Linux, while overlooking the more important luminaries.
I think the Linux kernel is a lot more than a bootloader. Hurd was taking forever, and folks decided to try LT's Linux kernel with GNU's tools. And thus GNU/Linux was born.
A hero.
Superpowers:
Kernel strike - takes 10 turns, produces a kernel that combined with a set of GNU tools decreases enemy share on the server market.
E-mail - takes 0 turns, gives additional activity to every geek character on LKML. This multiplies by 100 if re-posted on Slashdot.
Flying - well, not yet.
I know this will probably activate the froth glands of you zealots, but please read this whole post first. I don't know who compiled this list, but I suspect that if those people were left off, it was done so deliberately, despite their obvious contributions to the development of the internet.
As unpopular as they and their creations are to a lot of people here, I think it's unfair to ignore how they were able to bring the internet to millions of users who, without Windows and/or AOL, would have never been able to do so.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Ringo got shafted again.
He isn't as visible as the others; but he's done a lot of post-Beatles work for charity.
Cheers, Ringo.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
No wonder RMS wasn't chosen. He'd require a plugin to view his details. Can anyone post a non-flash translation?
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Maybe eventually Hurd will displace Linux, maybe eventually the *BSDs will displace them both; but for now, Linux + GNU is the crown jewel of Open Source.
Hm, I work for a company whose sole raison d'etre is doing just that - finding a cure for cancer. We use Linux extensively, and while we probably could've done without, it does make the whole operation a hell of a lot cheaper (which, for a startup in the current economic climate, does matter quite a bit) and my job somewhat easier (which in the end saves the company money as well).
The guy belongs in a looney bin, not on a list of hero nominees. Any good works RMS has done or continues to do are far outwieghed by his mental disorders.
I am afraid I fail to see the connection. Even if he is a satan worshipping misanthrope who kicks puppies just for fun, his works is still his work. Which, one could argue is a bit more infulential than Linus'. Linus created one project, a very large, very successful and very important project, but nonetheless a single project. RMS (arguably) got the whole Free Software thing off the ground in the first place, influencing (directly or indirectly, a lot or a little) every single other free project out there. Oh, and just how much use is the Linux kernel without, let's say, GCC (to pick an example)?
The guy has no respect for anyone or anything that doesn't believe as he does.
So? This isn't the "List of People Who Respect Others and are Nice To Their Mothers". I don't believe this is supposed to be some sort of popularity contest.
This just always gets on my tits; I mean, ok, so you seem to be slightly less of a jerk than RMS is, but are your accomplishments in the same proportion to his?
sic transit gloria mundi
For those who don't know statistics, RMS is the square Root of the Mean of the Squares in a distribution. It's a great tool for physicists.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
(I'm dutch, not english, so forgive spalling errors. CmdrTaco is now verifying syntax & vocaulary :-)
The free Linux-software developed itself the past few years as a solid comptetitor against Windows. The Fin Linus Torvalds is the hero of the 'open source'- movement.
The Finse student Linus Torvalds wrote in 1991 a first version of Linux. Torvalds asked a few friend-programmers to have a look at and comment on his creation. Thuswas born a cooperation that still today leads tp continuous improvement of the operating system.
Meanwhile, there is a core of at least 1000 internetusers continuously polishing linux.
besides this core, there are many one-time contributions. Thru nightly chat-sessions the discussion about possible additions and improvements of this common good are worked out.
initially, linux turned out to be an OS for fanatic hobbyists, usualy working in academic situations. At the end of the 90s, linux started rising in computer centers of lartge companies. System administrators download linux for free from the Net and use it 'en masse' as webserver, often without IT managers knowledge.
If problems come to light, they get notified in newsgroups all over the net, whereafter tenthousands of programmers are volunteering to help finding a solution.
The advantages of linux are numerous according to open-source fans. Mostly because it is free : in contrast with other software, no licences have to be paid, but rather it is freely downloadable.
Then they go on an nag about linus being gay, having a goatse affair with CmdrTaco in russia in a base that belongs to someone who has bad grammar (like me). Or something.
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
It's the classic case of a guy who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.
He'd garner far more respect for his technical contributions if he didn't make us accept his ravings^H^H^H^H^H^Hextreme socio-political opinions as a baseline for talking to him.
Fair or not, RMS the extremist cannot be separated from RMS the coder. And that limits the appeal of RMS the coder.
No one wanted to listen to him sing this
-ted
GNU/Linus or GNU/Torvalds? After all, wasn't it RMS who donated all the semen to the FSF (Free Sperm Foundation)? I think we all have a lot to be thankful for in GNU.
Let me get this straight: George, John and even Paul are heroes/saints but Ringo is chopped liver? I realize that the others did more noble things post-Beatles, but come on. Ringo did "Caveman", with Barbara Bach, Dennis Quaid AND Shelly Long.
Sure, I respect Linus for his work and contributions to the IT world and the "liberation" from propertairy software and unethical licenses. However, the REAL heroes on that page are two victims of "zinloos geweld" as we dutch people call it, or "senseless violence" if translated into english. These two people I'm talking about are René Steegmans and Meindert Tjoelker (both on the same page as Linus) who were killed for no reason at all. Maybe not such a big thing in the US, but remember that the Netherlands is about 1/232th the size of the US. (according to the CIA factbook, ahem) Meindert Tjoelker was killed when trying to calm a fight between a few people and René Steegmans was killed when he questioned a bunch of guys wether they had any respect for an old lady who they almost ran over on scooters. They are real heroes to us Dutchies.
Hate me!
I'm shocked that I don't see Ellen Feiss or Natalie Portman on the list.
Why focus on Linus in this story? Tim Berners-Lee is deservedly in the same list. If Linus is a Saint, Tim must be the Pope.
I think you have posted your comment in the wrong story. The one about micro$oft buying macromedia is here
...
Oh wait
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
Let's try to find out.
Do you use screwdrivers at work? I guess we better make the inventor of the screw driver a hero then.
The screwdriver is an important invention and quite essential for many technology oriented fields. However, it can also be considered to be fairly trivial, and there's a good chance that screwdrivers would be invented by someone else had the original inventor never bothered. I am not sure the same can be said about free operating systems / kernels / whatever.
And BTW yes I do think my contributions outweigh his however that is irrelevant to the conversation since I'm not nominated in the award.
Fair enough, though I do think they are quite relevant as they give you more of a solid position when attacking RMS.
By your definition Sadam is a hero because he's brought some economic relief to his people, nevermind the ones he's killed and tortured.
My definition made the distiction between people's accomplishments and their personalities. Your major problems with RMS seem to be that he is a "loon", is disrespectful of others and apparently prone to frothing. Killing people, on the other hand, is firmly in the realm of "real actions" rather than "attitude towards others".
Just go away, that was the most ridiculous post I have ever read in my life.
You have a four digit slashdot id, I refuse to believe that the above statement is true.
BTW, In that post I didn't actual claim that any one should or shouldn't be on any such list; merely trying to point out some differences in what they've done.
sic transit gloria mundi
Eventhough I still like /.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
At least they know the difference between Good and W.Bush..
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
You can compare the number of supported processors, but everything else - correctness, effectiveness, reliability, resource consumption - cannot be compared between different classes of sortware.
What I was trying to say is that the existence of gcc wasn't a precondition for Linux. Linus could have started his work on the kernel with some other compiler, even if it was slower, non-free, and non-portable.
Many projects changed the compiler between versions. BeOS switched from Metrowerks to gcc. It would not be impossible to switch Linux to gcc.
His post was dead on. Yours is the one that resorted to invective and name-calling because you weren't able to respond intelligently to his points.
Stallman's contributions made the free software movement possible. As is stated below, he invented the wheel and gave it away for free. How exactly has Stallman hurt free software? The GNU license is its greatest protector. Unfortunately those who stands by their convictions are often labeled as crazy by those who disagree with them. Such is the case here.
I think we will find that history will treat Richard Stallman more kindly than he is treated in many contemporary fora. His concept is built to last. (Side note for you Ayn Rand fans-- I was in a conversation where someone asked "Who is the Howard Roark of the software world?". After Bill Gates was shot down, I found some consensus with RMS)
BTW what free software do _you_ use?
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Heh.
That's funny.
Someone pretending to be someone in my class.
Hee hee...
So, what course was it and who was the prof? Heck, what school do I go to?
Karma: Non-Heinous
Go Linus! I always knew he rocked, that's why I named my cockatiel after him! I also named my fish after Alan Cox ...
Good thing it wasn't the other way around. Even though naming your cockatiel after Alan has a certain aliteratory appeal, you don't want to be chasing after him when he runs away in the neighborhood yelling "Here, cox! Get over here, cox!! Com'ere boy!! That's a good cox!".
----- rL
Ok first Roarke invented a new product (this is fiction you do realize?) marketed it and out did his competitors on fair market terms. How in the sam hell do you derive RMS from this? RMS didn't invent anything, he copied very old ideas from AT&T and made some slight improvements on them. The community took it from there. Perhaps you should actually read Atlas Shrugged before spouting off at the mouth as if you understood it. Oh and Roarke was never labeled crazy, he was labeled evil for not giving everything to charity. RMS is the OPPOSITE of Roarke you moron.
Stallman hasn't contributed anything nearly as great as you seem to think. RMS isn't the entire FSF movement, there are MILLIONS more people contributing a great deal EVERYDAY. You Stallman worshipers really astound me with your ignorance and blind devotion to a man who has proved time and time again to be nothing more than a school yard bully to other developers. The only other FSF figure head even remotely as looney as RMS is Theo from OpenBSD.
History wont even blink at RMS, nor Linus. This is just software, not some great political movement like you seem to think. 10 years from now OS's as we know them wont even be a blip on the radar screen.
What free software do I use? What the hell does that matter? Is this the part where I'm supposed to whip out my dick and measure it along side yours to see who's the bigger man?
I meant The Fountainhead not Atlas Shrugged.
Thank god we were born with this really cool thing called "free will". If that free will thingie is in an environment that actually allows it, you can discount lists like this as not important to you. This isn't the end-all be-all of "hero" lists. Since it's made by the Dutch, one would assume them to think more highly of achievements that have affected them more. The list could be ridiculous to you because you may not have the same point of view as the creators of the list. If you don't like the list, don't bitch about it, ignore it (or maybe even better, write your own)!
Did anybody else notice that one of their "heroes" is a ZOMBIE!!!?? It looks like one of the zombies from the "Living Dead" series. I expect him to say "Braaaaiiiinnnns" (in Dutch, of course).
There is only one Saint Linus and he was created by Charles Schultz.
Thou shalt not have other Saint Linus before the one true Saint Linus.
Save the World! Use a Quote!
quite... my question is...
Which compiler built the first version of GCC?
Which compiler build that compiler's first version?
You can apply the same to an operating system kernel. That is what makes both very remarkable accomplishments, especially considering their success and abundance today.
mmmm...MIT/Stallman...sort of rolls off the tongue, doesn't it.
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
"Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended.""
Of course he wasn't! He's no lowly saint, he's nothing less than the Second Coming! He'll tell you himself!
Oh, wait... GNU/Second Coming.
Germans insist on calling their country Deutschland. I still call it Germany. In Britain, it makes more sense, to me, to call it "Lie-nucks." In practice, I do about 50/50.
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Ah! So that where the phrase "Per-Seat Licensing" comes from :)
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
gnu/hero?
--Joey
Did we really want to have a picture of Saint Iggy linked to from the front page? I want to burn myself alive now.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Seriously, who has heard of KRO before? Exactly. I'm putting out a list of the top 300 coolest dudes on earth - make sure you submit it, I'll include Linus.
-- jimmycarter
if writing a compiler is so simple
Writing a compiler is not actually very difficult. Oh, it's not "hello world", but if you have a basic grounding in assembly and some documentation, it's quite doable for a single person to have a quite usable compiler for a simple language in a month.
Carnegie Mellon University (as well as many other universities) have a compilers course, in which you write a compiler, so many people actually do so each year.
Writing a compiler that does really good optimization, on the other hand, is very, very difficult.
And, last of all, benchmarking and tweaking a compiler is not trivial and takes a *huge* amount of time. If you're compiling for a really simple cacheless architecture, maybe it's a piece of cake, but trying to make a good x86 optimizing compiler (especially one for multiple generations of x86 processors) is a tremendous amount of work.
May we never see th
Lie-nucks is definately the American-ised way of saying it. In Britain, the correct way to say it is with a "flat" i, as in lihnuks.
Which incidentally is closed to the way Linus says it
Obviously, he has a Swedish accent, so he says it with the longer ee sound, but converting that into UK English, it would go from leenuks, to lihnuks. Lienuks is due to the Americans changing the word - there are some examples of this in other words, but I can't remember them.
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Linus is a role model, not a hero.
I seem to remember being instructed as to what a hero is in basic training. But I never understood it, not really.
Not until I met one. Two holes in his chest and fighting for his own life at that point. But he saved two lives prior. That is a hero.
A hero is the man who runs into a blazing fire in order to save your sorry ass.
A hero is the lady who jumps into an ice cold river to save your child.
A role model is someone who writes a free Unix like kernel and gives it to the world for free.
I want to be like Linus some day. I hope I never have to be a hero.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
...but if it were me, I'd be embarresed to be listed up there with Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandi, Anne Frank, The New York Firefighters, Steve Biko, Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein, etc. Father of the Free OS or no, I'd feel unworthy to lick their boots.
:-)
Then again, there's Bono & David Bowie, so perhaps it isn't as bad as all that.
There are a lot of Dutch folk on there I've never heard of. If it were made by Americans, I'm sure there'd be a lot more Americans on it that few outside of this country have heard of. But, given that its a list made by Dutch people, I'm really impressed at the number of Americans on it. Particularly popular culture figures that you'd figure wouldn't translate overseas well, like Michael Jordan and Bill Cosby.
I think they chose some Americans we wouldn't have chosen. Cosby is one example. He's an OK comedian, and I loved Fat Albert back in the day and all, but still not exactly a heroic figure in my book. More interestingly, they picked FDR and did not mention Churchill. If Americans made the list, I suspect the reverse would have been true. (Even back during WWII, it was remarked that the US and Britan could switch leaders, and both would be happier).
Good, I'll update my religion on the next census from "Jedi" to "Linux". Glad they got that formalized.
The Hurd works. The Hurd now has pthreads and can run almost all of the software that Debian has. You can install Debian GNU/Hurd NOW. And it works. The next cd images should have GNOME and KDE too. The Hurd is a bit slow, but that should be fixed when l4hurd is ready (Hurd on L4, which is much faster than Mach). The Hurd is quite mature and stable and only has a few show stoppers left (fs size limit is the main one). Most of the recent critical bugs have been in GNUMach not in the Hurd. This is because Mach is generally agreed to suck which is why the Hurd is being ported to L4 (a decent microkernel).
To clarify: the Hurd running on GNUMach 1.x isn't very stable. But that is because GNUMach is unstable, not the Hurd. The Hurd (being a set of daemons and translators) doesn't have too many crash bugs. If any parts of the Hurd has a crash bug it isn't really terribly severe because the server can always be restarted. But when the kernel has a crash bug, oops. It will be nice when GNU finally releases GNU 1.0 (the GNU project will be releasing its own distribution of the GNU OS when it is ready, just like other OS vendors).
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Buddism is occasionally mixed with other religions (as it's more philosophy based than deity based)
One Christian buddist chirch exsists (so I'm told).
Also often Wicca mixes with other religions (it's already paganism coctail) A Zen Wicca coven exsisted a few years back.
All thats needed are to rationally compatable religions.
In anchent times mixing religions happened a lot. Bast was marryed to just about every god as she got transplanted into diffrent groups.
This btw is why 'you shall have no gods before me' It's basicly the problem of corupting religions as they murge for political reasons.
But Linux and Slackware are compatable enough. All hail GNU/Bob the pequin savor. We want open slack.
On the aside. The chirch of GNU DotCom is corrupted.
It's the mix of open sorce and capitalism. The all mighty doller and 'free speach' aren't directly compatable.
The GnuBob as a medium between makes a holy trinity that works.
All hail GnuBob and his messanger the all mighty doller.
I don't actually exist.
The chirch of Gnu/StarTrek.
In that one the all mighty buck is a Farigi and not evil but not to be totally trusted.
A good buffer.
GnuCthulu? Umm maybe staying away from ElderGod Linux might be wise.
I don't actually exist.
What about more trivial cases? What if, for example, when you were children, your brother took away a toy of yours, or something of that nature? You're presented with two options: beat his ass and get it back, or solve it in a non-violent way. I don't see how anyone could possibly say that someone doing the latter is "immoral". That's ridiculous. You're basing an entire philosophy on a very small per-centage of possible occurances. Maybe World War I and II were justified somewhat, but there are other wars that have happened with somewhat questionable motives. Again, i don't see how not participating in something like that could be considered immoral, if your opinion is that the war itself is immoral.
Defending one's country represents a VERY small piece of the possible-violent-conflicts pie. Most likely 90% of all would-be violent conflicts in one's life would be trivial, stupid things, like the example i mentioned above. And pacifism does NOT mean inactivity, as your posts seem to suggest. Pacifism simply means non-violence. A peace accord, a compromise, a petition, a refusal to obey orders; these are non-violent ways to end conflicts. Pacifism does not mean simply sitting on your ass and watching the world go by because you're a coward. Pacifism means you strive to solve conflicts without violence.
You obviously either don't know what pacifism means, or you're choosing to ignore the broader scope of it.
My thought experiment was designed to test the conviction of the belief -- that is, are there limits, and if so, what are they? If you were a pacifist and you would not stick by your pacifism in the hypothetical situation, then we would have established that there is a limit to your pacifism (it isn't absolute). Perhaps there are other limits. The reason this came up in the first place is that the original poster implied that there were no limits at all to his pacifism. If that were really so, he would have to say, "I would die and let them die in that situation." Whether it's likely to occur or not is irrelevant. It is totally legitimate, even standard practice -- e.g., in thought experiments -- to come up with unusual, extremely unlikely scenarios, often for pedagogical purposes, but for other reasons too. They often illustrate a point much better than a more mundane scenario -- as in this case.
I'm sorry you have such an aversion to hypothetical situations. Whole worlds of thought are thus completely off-limits for you. I for one, though, am glad that writers, scientists, musicians, artists, and intellectuals of every kind don't share your distaste for the hypothetical.
I am tired of responding to you, since you don't ever directly address what I have said, but just insist on the same 6-year old standard of proof every time. Perhaps one day you'll go to college and take a critical thinking class, and then I'll happily continue the discussion.
To relate this back to my original remark, having a clear (correct) explanation that doesn't rely on hypotheticals is a sufficient condition for establishing the truth of the claim, but it is not necessary. To say that it isn't necessary is to say that there are other forms of justification that are also sufficient. I am making the claim that one of these alternate means of justification is a hypothetical that brings the issue at hand clearly into focus. You disagree, and are arguing that unless there is a plain explanation without hypotheticals, then the claim is false. The claim we are considering here is whether the guy's pacifist views are absolute (i.e., no exceptions whatsoever) or not.
My problem is that the argument rubs me the wrong way. It feels like the mental equivalent (although more subtle) of aiming a gun at a guys head and saying "say I'm great, or I'll blow your brains out". Now, its entirely possible that I am wrong, and frankly I didn't get into this because of the pacifist/non-pacifist issues. I just really don't like an argument that seems (to me) to have artificial limits on its response.
But there are natural limits on possible responses, and this is what my hypothetical illustrates. Either the guy's pacifism is absolute, as he implies, or it is not. If it is absolute, then it would not be possible for me to come up with a scenario that would cause him to go against his beliefs. Conversely, if it is possible for me to come up with a scenario (any scenario at all, however unlikely, however contrived) that causes him to go against his beliefs, then his beliefs are not absolute. This follows necessarily from simple rules of logic and the definition of absolute pacifism (or the gloss that I gave it as 'without exception'). Anyway, perhaps you still disagree, and we can agree to disagree.