Dow vs. Parody

Have you seen The Thing? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:33 · Score: 0, Funny

That guy's made of rock or something! And he's got a budd that's made of fire, plus that stretchy guy and invisible girl. If I were an ISP, I wouldn't be messing around with superheroes like that!

Re:Have you seen The Thing? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-05 06:03 · Score: 0

But what about The Thing's thing? Is it also made of rock? Does the fire guy have a fire schlong? How do they deal with a stiffie? Can they masturbate? Can the invisible girl handle them?

fp by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:33 · Score: -1, Offtopic

word!

Michael by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:34 · Score: -1, Troll

I won't even bother reading the story because it mentions green peace and a corporation. Coming from Michael we know what this is going to be: an orgy of socialism. Fuck off Michael, you stupid liberal fuck.

in soviet russia.... by rainman31415 · 2003-01-01 05:34 · Score: -1, Offtopic

....oh who cares.....

rainman

Re:in soviet russia.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:44 · Score: 0

This is offensive. Don't you know that Bhopal tragedy is ...well... very very tragic?
Re:in soviet russia.... by spazoid12 · 2003-01-01 05:51 · Score: 1

I think rainman does care, but he's upset that he was close to first-post...but not quite.

Take it easy rainman, you'll get your chance someday.

Their Thing? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:35 · Score: 2, Funny

I stumbled across this item on Wired about Verio cutting off The Thing's

Did anybody else read this as "Verio cutting off their Thing"?

I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by UpLateDrinkingCoffee · 2003-01-01 05:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

...had foreseen what corporations have become if they wouldn't have put a few special clauses in especially for them.

Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-01 06:04 · Score: 1

I'm sure they would have. Probably something about how a free society naturally has consequences. Something like that.

Always remember, guys. In a free society, you are allowed to do pretty much whatever you like, and the rest of us take responsibility for picking up the pieces afterwards. In a totalitarian society, you are told what you can and can't do from the outset so nobody has to pick up the pieces afterwards. Whether you would prefer to live in a totalitarian society or a free society is up to you, but be careful never to confuse the two.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by UpLateDrinkingCoffee · 2003-01-01 06:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

Im talking about the trend these days to value corporate freedom above individual freedom. I mean, when did a *corporation* get the right to free speech? The people that make up and run that corporation certainly have that right, but this trend of treating corporate entities as individuals is getting out of hand.
Forcing a number of (presumably) individuals with something to say off the web with the stroke of a pen doesn't seem totalitarian to you? Due process isn't even an option due to the cost.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-01 06:30 · Score: 1, Informative

I mean, when did a *corporation* get the right to free speech?

You're asking that question backwards. There's nothing in US law that grants a right to free speech to anybody. The law just assumes that that right exists for all persons, individual and corporate alike.

A better way to ask the question would be, why should corporate persons not enjoy free speech?

Forcing a number of (presumably) individuals with something to say off the web with the stroke of a pen doesn't seem totalitarian to you?

Nope, for two reasons. First, they didn't have the right to say what they said in the first place; false representation and defamation are illegal, and are not protected by free speech. (Parody is, of course, but this work was not a parody. It was fraud.) Second, this activity wasn't a government action at all; the government was never involved. Rather, Dow complained to Verio and asked that they enforce their AUP, and Verio complied. The rules were laid down right from the beginning; Thing.net chose to ignore them, so they lost their service.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by shepd · 2003-01-01 06:34 · Score: 1

>In a free society, you are allowed to do pretty much whatever you like, and the rest of us take responsibility for picking up the pieces afterwards.

Isn't that the definition of an Anarchist society?

In all free societies I know of, I always thought one's freedom extended up until you step on my property, or got within an arms length of my person.

--
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by UpLateDrinkingCoffee · 2003-01-01 07:02 · Score: 1

The right to free speech in the U.S. is granted to "persons" by the constitution. It transcends the law. You are right that the law assumes corporations have this right, but only because somewhere along the line the supreme court decided corporate entities were "persons".. I'm submitting that corporate persons have the same rights as individuals because of supreme court precident and *not* the intent of the framers of the constitution.
As far as this not being a government action, wasn't the DMCA applied? Verio complied under threat of the consequences of the law, which is given power by the government.
I agree with you that false accusation and defamation are not free speech. If they broke the law, then they should be held accountable. I'm just trying to point out how easy it is for corporate entities to steamroller the rights of individuals (in this case, the right to due process and possibly the right to free speech).
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Waffle+Iron · 2003-01-01 07:03 · Score: 2

A better way to ask the question would be, why should corporate persons not enjoy free speech?
Mabye it's because the term "corporate person" is an oxymoron.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by www.sorehands.com · 2003-01-01 07:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Nope, for two reasons. First, they didn't have the right to say what they said in the first place; false representation and defamation are illegal...(Parody is, of course, but this work was not a parody. It was fraud.)

To be defamation, or more precisely, libel Dow would have to show false facts. What are the false facts that have been published?

Second it is not false representation. Parody by nature requires one to create an image of what you are making parody of. To be fraud, they must be attempting to get something of value.
Second, this activity wasn't a government action at all; the government was never involved. Rather, Dow complained to Verio and asked that they enforce their AUP, and Verio complied. The rules were laid down right from the beginning; Thing.net chose to ignore them, so they lost their service.

Asking a court to restrict someone's right or penalize someone for their speech is an infringment of the first amendment. Using the threat os this should also be considered the same.

--
Fight Spammers!
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by kurt_cagle · 2003-01-01 07:16 · Score: 3, Informative

In the mid-1880s, at the (well-renumerated) insistence of the Railroad
companies, corporations were given all of the rights that hitherto had been assigned only to individuals via the Bill of Rights. Until that time, the rights and abilities of
corporations were highly restricted, in great part because Jefferson, Madison and Franklin
were all quite aware of what would happen if corporations did gain these rights. In many ways the original Revolutionary war was a corporate war - much of the exploration of the
American colonies was carried out by corporations that were looking for a cheaper source of raw materials and a captive market for their goods. When the American revolutionaries began to fight back, it was these same corporations that paid for the British troops, ships, and armaments, because they saw the actions as being harmful to their corporate interests.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by dipipanone · 2003-01-01 07:58 · Score: 1

Parody is, of course, but this work was not a parody. It was fraud

Bullshit. Do you really believe that anyone would have been taken in and believed this website was really Dow's corporate website?

Go look up the word 'fraud' in a dictionary -- right after you're done learning about what constitutes a free society.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Kierthos · 2003-01-01 08:08 · Score: 1

*nod* We're all supposed to take responsibility for our actions. Anarchy, really, boils down to who can bully who and get away with it. In other words, it's 6th grade gym class for the rest of your life.

Kierthos

--
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:13 · Score: 0

Hamilton lost the duel, but certainly won the *war* for the shape the new nation would eventually take. While Jefferson was accused of dalliance with his female slaves, Hamilton gratified his own urges by taking hand-colored woodcut prints of the various 17 Lords of the Jan Compagnie (Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie) to the outhouse with him. This seems to have started a tradition which endures to the present administration, and as such traditions do modify with the passage of time, I fully expect to see all denominations of U.S. currency bear Hamilton's portrait before the next national election. This is the primary reason your mother cautioned you about putting money in your mouth. All loyal party members are welcomed to join with me in my next worshipful pilgrimage this coming April, when I lay the ritually completed 1040 at the feet of the Heroic Seven Foot Statue of Hamilton ensconced in the very rotunda of our Capitol, and warmly reflect on the number of years for which Microsoft paid no Federal Income Taxes.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by uncoveror · 2003-01-01 08:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

Whether this was parody or fraud should have been a matter for the courts to decide. Thanks to the provisions of the DMCA, they didn't have to get involved for censorship to occur. This is what is meant by the term, "Chilling Effect." As for defamation, printing negative information is not libel if it is true, no matter how negative. A biting satire of the company that continues to ignore their responsibility for Bhopal, and is even suing Bhopal survivors, that appears at first glance to be Dow's real website is a valid exercise in free speech in my opinion. I think that the Supreme Court would eventually agree if they heard this case, as it did in the Larry Flynt vs. Jerry Falwell case. Dow deserves to have the screws put to them. I support the Yes Men, and Greenpeace for doing just that. Dow could have avoided a lot of negative publicity by ignoring the yes men. Now, more people than ever before are learning that Dow is Union Carbide, and people are still dying every day because of their irresponsibility.

--
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-01 09:12 · Score: 1

In a free society, you are allowed to do pretty much whatever you like, and the rest of us take responsibility for picking up the pieces afterwards.

I don't think so. In a free society, you must take responsibility for your own actions. Also, being in a free society does not mean i can do pretty much whatever i like; it means i can do what i like as long as i don't infringe upon another's rights.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-01 09:14 · Score: 1

The law just assumes that that right exists for all persons, individual and corporate alike.

A coroperation is not a person. They do not have rights.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by hansroy · 2003-01-01 10:02 · Score: 1

I think I read this on K5 -- corporations don't really have the right to free speech. In the trial that is frequently cited on this matter, the judge explicitly told the reporter to make sure he wrote it down this way, but somehow its been mutated over the years, lawyers being what they are. I don't know how it became legally accepted, but its entrenched now. I also don't know why it hasn't been overturned.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by fatboy · 2003-01-01 12:01 · Score: 2

The law just assumes that that right exists for all persons, individual and corporate alike.

A coroperation is not a person. They do not have rights.

A corporation is a group of people that do have individual rights. They can choose to exercise those rights as a group.

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--fatboy
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by bacchusrx · 2003-01-01 12:39 · Score: 2

A corporation is a group of people that do have individual rights. They can choose to exercise those rights as a group.

That's not entirely true. A corporation is, under law, a "natural person" that has rights distinct from those of the persons who comprise it.

Nothing in law requires that a corporation exist in order for groups of individuals to "exercise their rights together."

bacchusrx.

--
Life after capitalism? The participatory economics project
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-01 14:33 · Score: 1

A corporation is a group of people that do have individual rights. They can choose to exercise those rights as a group.

Doesn't really matter. You act like all 1000 employees are acting as a group, which is not the case. For a corporation, its a small group of the employees making decisions, which usually affect thier pocketbook as they are the higher ups.

In effect, the higher ups have 2 votes in your system. Thats not how our system is supposed to work.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 15:54 · Score: 2

As for defamation, printing negative information is not libel if it is true...

Sorry. That exemption doesn't apply here. They're posting press releases that sure look like they're real Dow press releases, but are things Dow never said and likely would never want to say in a press release.

Drop that line of reasoning, it gets you nowhere. These "press releases" are certainly not the truth. They translate to "Dow Chemical announced today that 1+1=2." Even though it's a true math fact, Dow never made any announcement about it, so the statement is false.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 16:35 · Score: 2

To be fraud, they must be attempting to get something of value.

Ones good name is something of value.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Capsaicin · 2003-01-01 17:21 · Score: 1

The right to free speech in the U.S. is granted to "persons" by the constitution.
Wrong. It prohibits the legislature(s) from legislating away a presumed right.
the law assumes corporations have this right, but only because somewhere along the line the supreme court decided corporate entities were "persons"
Correct. However, having decided they are persons, the question is, as the previous poster pointed out, why in particular corporate persons should be denied a right which pertains to other legal persons?

--
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-01-02 00:15 · Score: 1

*nod* We're all supposed to take responsibility for our actions. Anarchy, really, boils down to who can bully who and get away with it. In other words, it's 6th grade gym class for the rest of your life.
This isn't true.
*IF* we all take responsibility for our actions, then Anarchy is the most suitable form of government. Consider this:
In an anarchist society, we would be free to kick the geek's ass. However, we would have the responsibility not to do so. As a check to help us NOT to kick his ass his family would have the freedom to retaliate.
It is true that there are always people in the minority who would abuse their freedom by behaving irresponsibly. However, in an anarchist society the politicians and the criminals would be one and the same.
I know, I know, how can there be criminals?
Simple, some group of people would start a business to enforce laws. Simple enough, right? I might be one of them. :) Basically, some people decide that in this certain space (a neighborhood for example) there are certain behaviors which are unacceptable. In order to prevent the kinds of blood feuds that could occur if families and friends dealt directly with retaliation they would instead create a "police force" that would handle it for them. Similar to the Mafia in practice, but different in organization. It would actually be run as a service-oriented business that needs to satisfy its customers to stay in business.
I realize the situation is very complex, and any society needs a basic set of rules to prevent the sort of stuff that anti-anarchists promise us will happen in a free society. That's why we have "manners". :) Also, I don't think a true anarchy would ever happen because people would still group together and establish rules and throw out those who break these rules. The fact that humans invented government in the first place is a result of this basic tendency. Therefore, in an anarchist society, there would still be rules.
Anarchy only means that there should be no government to control us. It doesn't mean there would be no rules. I'll bet that if our country became a true anarchy then in Texas you would have all kinds of freedom as long as you were a Christian. In WA state there would be a people-elected fascist regime. In other places there would be different stuff.
Many people have a misperception of anarchy and are afraid of it. We should try to understand something before we fear it, but if we fear something we should try to understand it better to eliminate our fear. Understanding is vital, and fear without understanding is unacceptable behavior in my world. :)

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 01:40 · Score: 0

If corporations are "persons" and corporations kill people who should get the death penalty?

My vote is for summary executions of the top tier at Union Carbide / Dow, but I'm willing to have it applied to middle management as well...
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 01:48 · Score: 2

Isn't that the definition of an Anarchist society?

No. Those two magic words, "pretty much," make all the difference. In an anarchy, everybody can do whatever he wants. In a free society like ours, everybody can do pretty much whatever he wants, subject to the limits imposed by the law.

In all free societies I know of, I always thought one's freedom extended up until you step on my property, or got within an arms length of my person.

A common oversimplification. In fact, nothing like that is true.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 01:58 · Score: 2

The right to free speech in the U.S. is granted to "persons" by the constitution.

The right to free speech isn't granted at all by the Constitution, to anybody or anything. Rather, restrictions are placed on Congress to prevent, among other things, the abridging of it. So the presumption is clear: that free speech is an inherent right of all persons, groups, entities, what-have-you.

As far as this not being a government action, wasn't the DMCA applied?

Read the law. Title 17 provides for both civil and criminal remedies. Also, title 17 was only one of three laws cited in the complaint.

I'm just trying to point out how easy it is for corporate entities to steamroller the rights of individuals (in this case, the right to due process and possibly the right to free speech).

1. Due process does not apply. This is not a criminal matter. The right to due process is a protection extended explicitly to prevent the government from keeping people in prison without a trial and that sort of thing. It has no application whatsoever in the civil arena.

2. These culprits were not exercising their right to free speech. They were (among other things, but this is the meat of the complaint) using Dow's trademarks without authorization. That is expressly not protected by free speech, in any way.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:04 · Score: 2

What are the false facts that have been published?

These guys issued a press release claiming to be released by Dow Chemical. The press release was also featured on the web page. It contained quotes attributed to an apparently fictitious person and also falsified quotes attributed to a past president of Dow Chemical. How's that for false facts?

To be fraud, they must be attempting to get something of value.

Or deprive the rightful owners of something of value, namely their reputation.

Asking a court to restrict someone's right or penalize someone for their speech is an infringment of the first amendment.

Of course it's not. The first amendment says that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. I, as a private citizen, can abridge your free speech all I want, if I can get a court to agree that it should be so abridged. In this case, since the culprits were obviously committing fraud and defamation, convincing a court to compel them to stop would be trivial. Fortunately it never had to go to court, though, because Verio accepted responsibility for putting a stop to the most trivial of the offenses-- trademark infringement-- and shut the whole thing down themselves.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:07 · Score: 2

Do you really believe that anyone would have been taken in and believed this website was really Dow's corporate website?

Absolutely. We've seen plenty of evidence of it right here, among a population that is arguably brighter (or at least more skeptical) than average.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:24 · Score: 2

Thanks to the provisions of the DMCA, they didn't have to get involved for censorship to occur. This is what is meant by the term, "Chilling Effect."

The term "chilling effect" is bogus, and here's why. Verio has an AUP for their service that says, "The following practices are not allowed." Even without invoking the DMCA, Dow could have gone to Verio and said, "Such-and-such a web site, which is fed by your Internet connection, is violating your AUP. We think you should cut them off." Verio, looking at what's happening on that web site, would have had no reasonable choice but to agree, and to pull the plug.

So the exact same result would have occurred without even so much as a mention of the DMCA. So the so-called "chilling effect" is, in this case, neither chilling nor an effect.

In fact, the DMCA was just one of three separate and unrelated laws cited in Dow's complaint to Verio, not counting the AUP citation. So for that reason as well, to say that the DMCA has a "chilling effect" here is completely wrong.

As for defamation, printing negative information is not libel if it is true, no matter how negative.

The web site and associated press release said (paraphrasing), "The president of Dow Chemical said, 'Something something.'" The person cited is not now the president of Dow Chemical, but rather a past president, and he never said anything like what he was quoted as saying on the web site. That's pretty untrue, making the claim that it can't be libel look cheap at best.

A biting satire of the company that (irrelevant stuff) is a valid exercise in free speech in my opinion.

Fortunately your opinion does not hold sway in this instance. You can't make up lies about somebody-- even in the name of satire-- just because you don't like them. If you want to create a web site that's critical of Dow, knock yourself out. But intentionally trying to mislead members of the press and the public is going way too far.

Dow deserves to have the screws put to them.

Nobody deserves to be the victim of illegal misrepresentation and defamation. That's why it's illegal.

Now, more people than ever before are learning that Dow is Union Carbide, and people are still dying every day because of their irresponsibility.

No offense, but blah blah blah blah. Bhopal was a bad thing. But that doesn't give anybody the excuse to break the law in retaliation without suffering the consequences.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:37 · Score: 2

In a free society, you must take responsibility for your own actions.

No. The thing that differentiates a free society from a police state is that in a police state the central authority (or authorities) make every effort possible to prevent bad things from happening. (Their definition of "bad" may differ from yours.) In a free society, on the other hand, we accept that bad things are going to happen sometimes right at the outset, and agree that it's better to suffer the consequences of them than to live under stricter control.

Also, being in a free society does not mean i can do pretty much whatever i like; it means i can do what i like as long as i don't infringe upon another's rights.

That's a common misconception. In a free society, you're allowed to do whatever you like as long as you don't violate the law. You can violate another person's "rights"* all you want as long as you don't break any laws.

* There's really no such thing as a "right." In political discourse, "right" usually means one of three things. It can mean a freedom that is universally agreed to be inherent or divinely endowed. In the USA, it is universally agreed that people have inherent rights to life, liberty, and property; these ideas are laid down in our defining documents, and we accept them as axioms. But they're just a consensual hallucination. "Right" can also mean any freedom that is expressly granted or expressly protected by law. The Constitution says that Congress is not allowed to make a law abridging free speech; most people interpret that as meaning that everybody in the USA has a "right" to free speech, even though that's not even remotely true. Finally, and this meaning is most important, a lot of people use the word "right" to mean anything that they think should be universally agreed to be inherent, or expressly protected by law. When you hear somebody say (for example), "I have a right to determine how I treat my own body!" what he really means is, "I think everybody should agree that I can determine how I treat my own body, or barring that, I think that my freedom to decide how I treat my own body should be protected by law." This can get confusing because the other two definitions of "right" are based either on universal assent, or the force of law. Those kinds of rights are basically fixed in stone by the customs or laws of the society in which one lives. So when somebody says, "I have a right!" it's easy to be fooled into thinking that he's speaking literally, that whatever he's referring to is either inherent or protected by law. That puts people in an awkward position when they want to argue the point. But if you keep in mind that "I have a right!" can also mean "I want this thing to be accepted or protected by law," it makes the argument a lot more clear.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:47 · Score: 2

A coroperation is not a person. They do not have rights.

A corporation's legal status is granted explicitly by the laws governing incorporation in your jurisdiction. A corporation can enter into contracts, for example, or sue or be sued. In other words, a corporation is empowered to carry out all the functions necessary for operating a business.

Because a corporation is subject to the legal responsibilities of a person-- a corporation can be brought before a criminal court, or compelled (in the person of its representatives) to testify before a court or Congress; a corporation has to pay taxes; a corporation can be sued in civil court and assessed punitive damage-- it would be unreasonable not to grant it the legal protections enjoyed by a person.

In other words, a corporation is a person, and a corporation does have rights.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-02 04:12 · Score: 1

Because a corporation is subject to the legal responsibilities of a person-- a corporation can be brought before a criminal court, or compelled (in the person of its representatives) to testify before a court or Congress; a corporation has to pay taxes; a corporation can be sued in civil court and assessed punitive damage-- it would be unreasonable not to grant it the legal protections enjoyed by a person.

You miss the point of incorporating. Its to sheild the owner of the buisness from financial harm. That means that the corporation takes financial responsibitity for its actions; ie, getting sued for destroying the enviroment and causing cancer in people that live in that enviroment.

The CEO may be brought for criminal charges, because incorporating does not protect him from that (at least, it shouldn't).

In other words, a corporation is a person, and a corporation does have rights.

The coropration has a real, beating heart? Its an animal (or plant) of some kind? Note that a cat doesn't have rights either. Only human beings do.

A virus can multiple and consume resources to keep it going, but it is not alive.

Your arguement is obsurd. So what if a corporation can do all those things? It doesn't mean its a person (ie, human being) and doesn't have rights. To give it rights, you simply give top execs more power then everyone else.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by uncoveror · 2003-01-02 04:17 · Score: 2

So do you work for Verio, or Dow?

--
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by tanner_andrews · 2003-01-02 04:36 · Score: 1

A corporation is, under law, a "natural person" that has rights distinct from those of the persons who comprise it.
In Florida, at least, a corporation is a body corporate, distinct from a natural person. A natural person is what we think of as a natural person, as opposed to an artificial construct.
Note, by the way, that Pam Anderson would be considered a natural person, various modifications notwithstanding.
In court documents, a corporate person will often be identified as ``a Florida corporation'' while a natural person is often identified as ``a Florida resident''. See filings at http://www.payer.org/wvha/suit/ for examples.

--
Tilt at windmills. Occasionally one will fall over out of sheer surprise.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 05:41 · Score: 2

You miss the point of incorporating. Its to sheild the owner of the buisness from financial harm.

That's not the only point.

Your arguement is obsurd.

I'm not making an argument. I'm telling you what the facts are. As far as the law is concerned, a corporation is a person, and it does have rights.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Rary · 2003-01-02 06:31 · Score: 1

IANAL and don't ever want to be one, so I really don't know how libel and defamation and all that work. But this situation seems kind of odd. You state that it's libel because they quote someone as saying something that they did not actually say, even though the words they are putting in his mouth are true. However, I go over to "The Onion" and take a look at the articles there, and right away I come across a story about Bill Clinton which quotes him saying a number of silly things that he clearly never said. I also remember a story I read there once about Dell closing down because they had achieved the success they wanted, so there was no point continuing, and it quoted the CEO talking about how happy he was to have succeeded so he can now close down the company. Clearly, these stories are parody. As far as I know, The Onion has never been sued for them.
So, why is it okay to write parodies in which people are quoted as saying things that are not true (like Dell closing), but it's not okay to write parodies in which people are quoted as saying things that are true?

--
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 06:58 · Score: 2

You state that it's libel because they quote someone as saying something that they did not actually say, even though the words they are putting in his mouth are true. However, I go over to "The Onion" and take a look at the articles there, and right away I come across a story about Bill Clinton which quotes him saying a number of silly things that he clearly never said.

You've got to consider the intent. Letterman makes up stuff for his monologue every night, but he doesn't intent to inflict harm with it. These guys obviously intended to defame the character of Dow Chemical (such as it is) and to inflict harm on them. You have to take that into consideration.

Basically, what these guys did was not parody. What they did was intended to cause harm, so it was defamation.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-02 08:24 · Score: 1

That's not the only point.

Actually, it is.

I'm not making an argument. I'm telling you what the facts are. As far as the law is concerned, a corporation is a person, and it does have rights.

The law is wrong. It certainly sounded like an arguement to me, with your giving reasons and all without meantioning that its the law. Otherwise wouldn't you have just said 'hey this is the law' without going into the reasoning?
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 08:44 · Score: 2

Actually, it is.

So let me get this straight. You don't know enough about corporate law to recognize it when you hear it, and yet you understand all the pros and cons of incorporation, and have a good enough grasp on the whole issue to say, "The law is wrong?"

Nothing personal, friend, but I suspect that you might be biting off a bit more than you can chew on this one.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-02 08:52 · Score: 1

That's a common misconception. In a free society, you're allowed to do whatever you like as long as you don't violate the law. You can violate another person's "rights"* all you want as long as you don't break any laws.

That describes every society. Therefore, every society is a free society, including the former USSR, China, and Iran. Because there too you're allowed to do what you want without violating the law.

As far as your footnote on rights go, you seem to be confused. Read the philosophy of Jefferson, Locke and Keyes, since this is the philosophy that our nation is founded on. Its pretty clear what a right is.

When some says "i have the right to do whatever i want to my body", it means exactly that. That person is free to do anything to his or her body, and any law to the contrary is invalid. Laws against suicide are also wrong; if you truely have the right to live, you must be able to decide you do not want to live any longer. Its pretty clear what people mean when they say they have a right, and its pretty clear when they are misusing the term.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by plague3106 · 2003-01-02 09:04 · Score: 1

Yes, i know what the law says. yes, i know the same tired arguement you made previously is the same one used by corporations to be considered 'people.' I know the basics on incorporating.

That said, it doesn't really matter how much i know about incorporating to decide that a law stating corporations have rights is an invalid law. For that all you need is an understanding of rights.

Human beings have rights. Thats it. A group of ten people do not have more rights then an individual, nor do other things have rights.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 09:22 · Score: 2

That describes every society. Therefore, every society is a free society, including the former USSR, China, and Iran. Because there too you're allowed to do what you want without violating the law.

You've never visited those places, huh? In some countries you can be arrested and imprisoned for absolutely no reason at all. You can be arrested and imprisoned because somebody thinks you should be. You can be arrested and imprisoned for personally offending a bureaucrat. What you are free to do has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

What I said most certainly does not describe every society. In fact, you should consider yourself outstandingly lucky to live-- as a presume that you do-- in a country where everybody generally accepts the authority of the law, but also respects the strict limits placed on the law by the system of government.

Read the philosophy of Jefferson, Locke and Keyes, since this is the philosophy that our nation is founded on. Its pretty clear what a right is.

Philosophy is nothing but opinions, statements describing how one person thinks things oughta be. In the USA, certain fundamental assumptions are universally accepted. We call these "rights." Don't be confused, though, into thinking that what we call "rights" are in any way related to the natural world. They're purely a human invention, and an arbitrary one at that.

When some says "i have the right to do whatever i want to my body", it means exactly that. That person is free to do anything to his or her body, and any law to the contrary is invalid.

Ah, a libertarian. Well, friend, I hate to be the one to tell you that most of the human race does not agree with the statement in question. Since it's not universally accepted, it can't be a "right" of the first type. And the statement is not enacted as a law in any jurisdiction, so it also isn't a "right" of the second type. So it must be a "right" of the third type. In other words, when you say, "I have a right to this thing," what you really mean is, "I wish everybody would agree that I have a right to this thing, or at least that Congress would pass a law protecting this thing." Your statement of opinion therefore has no impact whatsoever, unfortunately, on whether a law abridging your "right" is a valid or just one.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 09:25 · Score: 2

That said, it doesn't really matter how much i know about incorporating to decide that a law stating corporations have rights is an invalid law.

Actually, I disagree. I would say that an in-depth understanding of corporate law is vital to making an informed judgment about whether the law is appropriate or not.

Human beings have rights. Thats it.

Oh, boy. Refer to this post to read my response to this.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 18:54 · Score: 0

Philosophy is nothing but opinions, statements describing how one person thinks things oughta be. In the USA, certain fundamental assumptions are universally accepted. We call these "rights." Don't be confused, though, into thinking that what we call "rights" are in any way related to the natural world. They're purely a human invention, and an arbitrary one at that.

Well on that basis you would have happily returned escaped slaves who reached the North back to the South because that was law.

You would also have no problem with most of what was done in Nazi Germany prior to 1938 because most of that was also done in a legal and proper manner. Hitler came to power through a legitimate democratic process. He legally stole property from certain targeted groups and eventually 'relocated' them.

universally accepted
most of the human race does not agree

Jefferson called that the tyranny of the majority.
The idea of a right is that it is something outside the scope of that which the government or a law can interfere with. It makes me laugh when I hear 'Americans' say that non-citizens in this country shouldn't or don't have rights. The fact is when they state this they accept the notion that their rights are privileges granted by government.

They are most emphatically not.

The problem with people who think like you appear to is that they happily follow the Pied Piper down any path as long as they are told that it is 'lawful' and that they are 'free'.

In essence every decision becomes one based on general consensus, the whim of the legislature, or 9 largely confused judges.

Without a moral compass, based on a sound philosophy (that which you so easily dismiss), you are basically a ship tossed at sea.

Perhaps you need someone to lead you and tell you what is proper and improper, but many of us don't. We're actually smart enough to figure it out rationally.

I guess sheeple like to be led.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-03 02:42 · Score: 2

Well on that basis...

Huh? You didn't just jump to that conclusion, dude. You called a cab, drove to the airport, stood in line for an hour, bought a ticket, and flew halfway around the world to that conclusion.

The idea of a right is that it is something outside the scope of that which the government or a law can interfere with.

The idea of a right is that it is something everybody agrees is outside the scope of what the government can interfere with.

Let me make this more clear. Let's say I were to make the statement that I believe I have a right to a free lunch one day per week. I'm being deliberately silly to make my point: I have a right to one free lunch per week.

The only reasonable response to that assertion is, "No, you don't." Just because I say I have a right doesn't mean that I do have that right. If everybody disagrees with me, then I have neither the right to a free lunch, nor the free lunch itself.

The right to bear arms is another great example. There are two reasons that we Americans have that right. One, because it's written down in our founding document. And two, because we all agree that we have it. It's not an inherent right; it's arbitrary.

Free speech is exactly the same. It's not a natural right. A person can be deprived of the right to speak freely with great ease. But we Americans all agree that a person should have the right to speak freely, and we act accordingly, so for all practical purposes we do have that right.

It makes me laugh when I hear 'Americans' say that non-citizens in this country shouldn't or don't have rights. The fact is when they state this they accept the notion that their rights are privileges granted by government. They are most emphatically not.

Where do they come from, then? The rights you're referring to, where do they come from? Are they inherent? As I said, a person can be deprived of his rights very easily, so it's fair to say that they're not inherent. Are they granted by God? Well, some people think so, but not everyone agrees on that point, and even if everyone did it would be impossible to prove it. So it all boils down to the same thing: people only enjoy rights because other people agree that they should.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-03 06:14 · Score: 0

Huh? You didn't just jump to that conclusion, dude. You called a cab, drove to the airport, stood in line for an hour, bought a ticket, and flew halfway around the world to that conclusion.

My conclusion flowed quite logically from what you wrote. Perhaps you don't see the logical consequences of the ideas you are esposing. I do.

Let me make this more clear. Let's say I were to make the statement that I believe I have a right to a free lunch one day per week. I'm being deliberately silly to make my point: I have a right to one free lunch per week.

That is not a right. That is a wish. In America it is called an entitlement. Like most Americans you are confused as to what a right is. Try this link:

article on rights

One, because it's written down in our founding document.

Many of the founders were reluctant to enumerate any specific rights out of concern that our government, in some future age, would try to check our rights by denying us those which were not enumerated but clearly ours. Here is a link on that subject.

what some of our founders thought about this notion

And two, because we all agree that we have it

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't let the mob do my thinking for me. I can assure you that I (and you) require certain rights whether you or the mob choose to recognize them or not. The fact that one can be imprisoned or killed, in some countries, for exercising those rights in no way means I (and you) don't require them.

Why do we require them and how have I identified them? Because they are provably neccessary for our ability to survive and thrive as human beings. Their infringment by governments always leads to loss of life.

Our founding documents were the first attempts, even made by man, to found a government based on these principles. Unfortunately, for many reasons, our founders were not entirely successful in binding the government to its, arguably proper, very limited role.

It is evident that you don't understand what a right is. I also don't think you understand much about the nature of governments.

Read some Lysander Spooner Lysander Spooner

Also interesting is this little booklet on amazon
Hologram of Liberty

And of course all of the founding fathers writings, the philosophers who influenced them, as well as the prior history of England and English common law make for interesting and enlightening reading. And don't forget the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

But here I am in another pointless usenet discussion. Sort of like reading R.D. Laings' book Knots.

Good luck to you.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-03 06:30 · Score: 2

I can assure you that I (and you) require certain rights whether you or the mob choose to recognize them or not. The fact that one can be imprisoned or killed, in some countries, for exercising those rights in no way means I (and you) don't require them.

In other words, you want everybody to accept that you have these rights. No problem. That's a "type 3" usage of the word "right." Just like I've been saying.

--

I write in my journal
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-03 19:12 · Score: 0

In other words I don't give a flying fuck whether 'everybody' accepts it or not.
Re:I wonder if the framers of the constitution... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-04 04:16 · Score: 2

In other words I don't give a flying fuck whether 'everybody' accepts it or not.

That's fine, too. If nobody respects your alleged right to a free lunch, or whatever, then you can yell and scream about it all day but you're still not going to get your free lunch.

People in this category include your garden variety libertarians, who appear (from their party platform) to believe they have a right to a whole bunch of stuff that they simply aren't going to get.

--

I write in my journal

They keep going on about by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:37 · Score: 0, Redundant

"Corporate Free Speech". Shouldn't it work both ways? Shouldn't parodies be allowed? Not allowing parodies is a violation of invidual Free Speech, surely?

Re:They keep going on about by jwilcox154 · 2003-01-01 06:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Shouldn't it work both ways? Shouldn't parodies be allowed? Not allowing parodies is a violation of invidual Free Speech, surely?

Not According to G.W. Bush, he himself said "There ought to be limits to freedom" when he was talking about Parodies of his campaign website.
Re:They keep going on about by arb · 2003-01-01 18:00 · Score: 2

Shouldn't parodies be allowed?

Parodies should be allowed, but the supposed parody web site did not look like a parody to me. It was trying to pass itself off as the real Dow site, which is not allowed. Fraud. Deception. etc...

The real reason Dow is upset by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:38 · Score: 0

It wasn't some "cosmic storm" that made them that way, it was living next door to the Dow chemical plant. Reed Richards used to work there as a scientist. (But he was a good scientist who only tested on evil animals... like cats.)

Re:The real reason Dow is upset by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:09 · Score: 0

cats are not evil!
They are interdimensional travelers here to observe humans.

OMFG by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:41 · Score: 5, Funny

That was the most incomprehensible story summary I've ever read.

There was the group, and we'll give them some forgettable name, and they did some stuff, and DMCA, and ow what hit me, the end.

Re:OMFG by spazoid12 · 2003-01-01 06:00 · Score: 1

I thought this was pretty funny. So often it's the wrong stuff that scores 5:funny.
Re:OMFG by Shalome · 2003-01-01 06:09 · Score: 4, Funny

Heh.. you forgot the "Oh, but wait, as I'm writing this I realized that the first half of my submission was utterly ridiculous and actually wrong, but I'm continuing anyway..." and the "Oh wait, we already said this" from the Slashdot editors. ;)

--
Moderation totals that amuse me for one of my posts: Flamebait=1, Insightful=2, Funny=2, Overrated=1, Underrated=1
Re:OMFG by Negadecimal · 2003-01-01 06:13 · Score: 2

Coffee helps a little. But not enough.
Re:OMFG by Threni · 2003-01-01 08:30 · Score: 1

Not really - this is the sort of nonsense you produce when taking a big hit of caffeine first thing in the morning - especially on a hangover!
Re:OMFG by Borealis · 2003-01-01 13:47 · Score: 1

I'm glad I'm not the only one that read that and ended up thinking "Um... huh?"

--
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.

Well by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:43 · Score: 0

They obviously don't have any balls (testicular fortitude).

how is this different from the earlier story? by avi33 · 2003-01-01 05:43 · Score: 1

OK, here I go again, grousing about my stories that get rejected, but apparently all I need to do is dig up a previously covered story and link it all to hell.

There's really nothing new here, other than to say 'wired picked up a story that we did two weeks ago.'

Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by spazoid12 · 2003-01-01 05:55 · Score: 2, Funny

I've noticed that lately all you need to do is read back-issues of Wired magazine, and in particular, PopSci magazine.

And then hope that either Timothy or ChrisD is on duty.

But, of course, I'm wrong and this is just trollish flamebait. And so in an effort not to get modded down let me add: I found this article to be insightful and informative. I particularly found the Greenpeace link inspiring and have made a mental note to someday, possibly, visit that link...if nothing else, just to see what a bunch of Zodiac owners are up to now.
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by Zeinfeld · 2003-01-01 06:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

There's really nothing new here, other than to say 'wired picked up a story that we did two weeks ago.'
The news that Dow is suing the Bopahl survivors to try to silence their protests over Dows failure to clean up is news to me.
The Union Carbide disaster at Bopahl was due to sheer negligence and greed. Dow still refuses to clean up the site of the disaster and has yet to pay compensation to most of the victims.
Perhaps if students stopped and considered the wisdom of joining a company that could kill 800 people with its negligence and not care a damn Dow might have a lot more difficulty recruiting on campus.
If you are choosing an employer in the chemical business their safety record should be your first concern. If you work for a company like Dow that is saying that they can kill 800 people, create pollution that will kill even more and they just don't care you are quite litteraly putting your own life on the line for their corporate profits.
The same goes for communities that have Dow installations near them, or planned to be built near them. Make sure that your representatives are aware that Dow cannoit be trusted.

--
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:24 · Score: -1, Flamebait

They killed 800 mud-people. It is not as if they killed 800 humans/whites. Get over it. Fucking towel-heads breed like bunnies. 800 mud-babies replaced the dead 800 within the next day. No loss at all.
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by avi33 · 2003-01-01 06:43 · Score: 1

...actually if you check out all of the links on the first story, you would have discovered this lawsuit, and written your congressperson using the link (as I did).

Again, my point is, it's just a better-linked version of the original post.
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by Zeinfeld · 2003-01-01 07:31 · Score: 2

Again, my point is, it's just a better-linked version of the original post.
Two slashdot stories in 18 years on the deaths of 800 people caused by corporate negligence does not appear unreasonable to me.
Unfortunately Slashdot is still stuck in a very limited niche despite the clear poitential to do more. I doubt that the majority of slashdot readers have such narrow interests as the editors.
OK I can take the slashcode and put up my own slashdot to discuss political issues, but slashdot is not the code base it is the community.
A way to address the repeated stories problem and the focus problem would be to create a kind of hybrid of slashdot and google news. Instead of the idiosyncratic and duplicative story selection by the slashcrew the stories could be choosen automatically in the same way as the google news stories are.
This would also reduce the number of tedious 'Microsoft is ssooooooo evil' rants where a story that has nothing to do with Microsoft is posted but the editor feels obliged to tell us what he thinks Microsoft would do in that situation. This type of behavior was more acceptable when slashdot was independent rather than run by a Microsoft competitor.
Another scheme which might be interesting would be to throw the editor queue open for inspection (but not comment) and moderation. Perhaps readers at karma cap or close could get moderation points for this purpose.
Slashdot talks a great line about decentralization etc. but really when it comes down to it the whole thing is a corporate dictatorship, one with a friendly face but not something that meets the game they talk.

--
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by GalionTheElf · 2003-01-01 09:58 · Score: 1

Two slashdot stories in 18 years on the deaths of 800 people caused by corporate negligence does not appear unreasonable to me.

How long have you been visiting /. exactly? ;)

--
I'm going over here and I don't know why!
Re:how is this different from the earlier story? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 14:12 · Score: 0

I have lived about 3 miles away from DOW's main plant where it all got started my entire life, and they are not that bad.

And why do you blame DOW for something that supposely Union Carbide did. I would say India is to blame for not having an EPA organization to set things straight soon after it happened.

who cares? by joeszilagyi · 2003-01-01 05:43 · Score: 1

About the abuse of America through the DMCA, or the abuse of the people by Dow overall? Lots of people, I'd wager.

--
Dude, where's my packet?

uh, no by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:44 · Score: 0

I think most of us know how to read.

Pretty convincing by Milo+Fungus · 2003-01-01 05:44 · Score: 1

I read through the original discussion. It was really interesting, especially posts like this one and its replies. The parody site is pretty convincing.

Go to bed micheal! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:46 · Score: -1, Troll

Lets count sheep!

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eight hundred six quadringentnovemquadragintillion, one hundred eighty seven quadringentoctoquadragintilliard, one hundred nine quadringentoctoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty one quadringentseptenquadragintilliard, forty three quadringentseptenquadragintillion, one hundred forty eight quadringentsexquadragintilliard, six hundred eighty quadringentsexquadragintillion, eight hundred thirteen quadringentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy eight quadringentquinquadragintillion, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty quadringentquattuorquadragintillion, four hundred ninety six quadringenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred fifteen quadringenttrequadragintillion, six hundred one quadringentdoquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty three quadringentdoquadragintillion, two hundred eighty two quadringentunquadragintilliard, six hundred twenty four quadringentunquadragintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentquadragintilliard, forty 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quadringenttrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty seven quadringenttrigintillion, eight hundred seventy five quadringentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred forty quadringentnovemvigintillion, nine hundred eighty five quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy three quadringentoctovigintillion, three hundred fifty six quadringentseptenvigintilliard, five hundred twenty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, six hundred fifty six quadringentsexvigintilliard, one hundred eight quadringentsexvigintillion, five hundred forty two quadringentquinvigintilliard, one hundred twenty eight quadringentquinvigintillion, five hundred seventy seven quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorvigintillion, fifty seven quadringenttrevigintilliard, eight hundred seventy nine quadringenttrevigintillion, fifty two quadringentdovigintilliard, three hundred twenty eight quadringentdovigintillion, eight hundred sixty five quadringentunvigintilliard, thirty five quadringentunvigintillion, three hundred fifty five quadringentvigintilliard, eight hundred seventy three quadringentvigintillion, six hundred fifteen quadringentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy nine quadringentnovemdecillion, three hundred sixty three quadringentoctodecilliard, six hundred fifty five quadringentoctodecillion, eight hundred eighty nine quadringentseptendecilliard, nine hundred twenty five quadringentseptendecillion, seven hundred eleven quadringentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty quadringentquindecilliard, one hundred fifty three quadringentquindecillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringentquattuordecilliard, ninety one quadringentquattuordecillion, seven hundred fifty two quadringenttredecilliard, four hundred twenty two quadringenttredecillion, eight hundred forty three quadringentdodecilliard, forty six quadringentdodecillion, nine hundred eighteen quadringentundecilliard, eight hundred eleven quadringentundecillion, four hundred twenty seven quadringentdecilliard, four hundred quadringentdecillion, six hundred sixty two quadringentnovemtilliard, one hundred thirty five quadringentnovemtillion, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotilliard, three hundred three quadringentoctotillion, five hundred sixteen quadringentseptentilliard, eight hundred fifty three quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred three quadringentsextilliard, nine hundred seventy six quadringentsextillion, eight hundred twelve quadringentquintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentquintillion, three hundred eighty five quadringentquattuortilliard, seven hundred fifty quadringentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy six quadringenttretilliard, two hundred twenty seven quadringenttretillion, seven hundred eighty seven quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred forty nine quadringentdotillion, five hundred eighty quadringentuntilliard, five hundred eighty two quadringentuntillion, eighty one quadringentilliard, eight hundred thirty one quadringentillion, two hundred sixty one trecentnovemnonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five trecentnovemnonagintillion, seven hundred one trecentoctononagintilliard, three trecentoctononagintillion, four hundred ninety eight trecentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred six trecentseptennonagintillion, five hundred twelve trecentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentsexnonagintillion, eight hundred seventy two trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy seven trecentquinnonagintillion, two hundred thirty three trecentquattuornonagintilliard, four hundred eighty nine trecentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ten trecenttrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecenttrenonagintillion, four hundred sixty nine trecentdononagintilliard, three hundred seventy five trecentdononagintillion, six hundred eighty three trecentunnonagintilliard, thirty seven trecentunnonagintillion, thirty eight trecentnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy three trecentnonagintillion, nine hundred ninety nine trecentnovemoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy one trecentoctooctogintilliard, five hundred eighty five trecentoctooctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight trecentseptenoctogintilliard, nine hundred five trecentseptenoctogintillion, six hundred thirty nine trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifteen trecentsexoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentquinoctogintilliard, six hundred thirteen trecentquinoctogintillion, four hundred five trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred ninety five trecentquattuoroctogintillion, seven hundred seven trecenttreoctogintilliard, one hundred eighty four trecenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentdooctogintilliard, one hundred fifty eight trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred nineteen trecentunoctogintilliard, two hundred eight trecentunoctogintillion, two hundred twenty three trecentoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty six trecentoctogintillion, four hundred forty two trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, fifty nine trecentnovemseptuagintillion, fourteen trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, five hundred ninety three trecentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven trecentseptenseptuagintillion, nine trecentsexseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty two trecentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred fifty three trecentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two trecentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy six trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, eight hundred fifty three trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred twenty three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy trecenttreseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty six trecentdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentdoseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy eight trecentunseptuagintilliard, eighty nine trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, six hundred twenty one trecentseptuagintillion, three hundred one trecentnovemsexagintilliard, one hundred sixty seven trecentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred eleven trecentoctosexagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine trecentoctosexagintillion, one hundred sixty six trecentseptensexagintilliard, four hundred seven trecentseptensexagintillion, three hundred sixty one trecentsexsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentsexsexagintillion, six hundred six trecentquinsexagintilliard, six hundred ninety seven trecentquinsexagintillion, eight hundred eight trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred eighty six trecentquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty seven trecenttresexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty six trecenttresexagintillion, nine hundred fourteen trecentdosexagintilliard, six hundred seventy one trecentdosexagintillion, two hundred forty six trecentunsexagintilliard, seventy three trecentunsexagintillion, seven hundred twelve trecentsexagintilliard, nine hundred four trecentsexagintillion, two hundred trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred eighty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, four hundred eight trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred twenty three trecentoctoquinquagintillion, one hundred eighty six trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty seven trecentseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven trecentsexquinquagintillion, six hundred seventy five trecentquinquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety two trecentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety seven trecenttrequinquagintilliard, sixty six trecenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty trecentdoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven trecentdoquinquagintillion, four hundred six trecentunquinquagintilliard, fifty three trecentunquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty trecentquinquagintilliard, one hundred twenty two trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred fifty three trecentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty nine trecentnovemquadragintillion, thirty six trecentoctoquadragintilliard, nine hundred sixty five trecentoctoquadragintillion, four hundred ninety trecentseptenquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty four trecentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecentsexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty four trecentsexquadragintillion, six hundred forty nine trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven trecentquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty four trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety eight trecentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred seventy eight trecenttrequadragintilliard, five hundred three trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred fourteen trecentdoquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty five trecentdoquadragintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy five trecentunquadragintillion, five hundred four trecentquadragintilliard, five hundred one trecentquadragintillion, six hundred eighty six trecentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred eighty seven trecentnovemtrigintillion, three hundred fifty four trecentoctotrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty six trecentoctotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty four trecentseptentrigintilliard, three hundred seventy four trecentseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two trecentsextrigintilliard, six hundred fourteen trecentsextrigintillion, one hundred twenty trecentquintrigintilliard, six hundred forty trecentquintrigintillion, seven hundred eighty two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred forty nine trecentquattuortrigintillion, six hundred twenty two trecenttretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty two trecenttretrigintillion, twenty seven trecentdotrigintilliard, seven hundred eighty eight trecentdotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty two trecentuntrigintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentuntrigintillion, six hundred two trecenttrigintilliard, six hundred sixty five trecenttrigintillion, nine hundred thirty three trecentnovemvigintilliard, one hundred forty seven trecentnovemvigintillion, six hundred eighty seven trecentoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentoctovigintillion, three hundred twenty two trecentseptenvigintilliard, eighty nine trecentseptenvigintillion, five hundred four trecentsexvigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight trecentsexvigintillion, seven hundred ninety one trecentquinvigintilliard, six hundred twenty four trecentquinvigintillion, six hundred fifty one trecentquattuorvigintilliard, five hundred nineteen trecentquattuorvigintillion, three hundred twelve trecenttrevigintilliard, three hundred twenty seven trecenttrevigintillion, eight hundred thirty one trecentdovigintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred fifty three trecentunvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecentunvigintillion, three hundred seventy seven trecentvigintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentvigintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy three trecentnovemdecillion, three hundred ninety five trecentoctodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen trecentoctodecillion, two hundred eighty one trecentseptendecilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentseptendecillion, six hundred sixty eight trecentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy six trecentsexdecillion, three hundred eighty four trecentquindecilliard, nineteen trecentquindecillion, five hundred ninety trecentquattuordecilliard, seven hundred twenty trecentquattuordecillion, one hundred seventy nine trecenttredecilliard, four hundred thirteen trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty nine trecentdodecilliard, five hundred eighty two trecentdodecillion, nine hundred seventy trecentundecilliard, three hundred nineteen trecentundecillion, three hundred ninety three trecentdecilliard, eight hundred eighty four trecentdecillion, three hundred eighty eight trecentnovemtilliard, eight hundred ten trecentnovemtillion, four hundred ninety four trecentoctotilliard, five hundred forty six trecentoctotillion, forty trecentseptentilliard, three hundred forty two trecentseptentillion, eighty seven trecentsextilliard, five hundred thirty six trecentsextillion, five hundred sixty three trecentquintilliard, six hundred twenty eight trecentquintillion, three hundred thirty two trecentquattuortilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentquattuortillion, seventy three trecenttretilliard, one hundred eighty one trecenttretillion, six hundred fourteen trecentdotilliard, three hundred trecentdotillion, seven hundred twenty one trecentuntilliard, seven hundred sixty nine trecentuntillion, three hundred seventy one trecentilliard, four hundred twenty six trecentillion, two hundred thirty eight ducentnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventeen ducentnovemnonagintillion, five hundred forty ducentoctononagintilliard, five hundred twenty ducentoctononagintillion, eight hundred forty five ducentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred fourteen ducentseptennonagintillion, six hundred sixty five ducentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred thirteen ducentsexnonagintillion, three hundred one ducentquinnonagintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducentquinnonagintillion, five hundred fifty one ducentquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two ducentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety one ducenttrenonagintilliard, eight hundred forty nine ducenttrenonagintillion, five hundred fifty eight ducentdononagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight ducentdononagintillion, four hundred ninety nine ducentunnonagintilliard, twenty five ducentunnonagintillion, three hundred forty eight ducentnonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty ducentnonagintillion, three hundred seventy six ducentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentnovemoctogintillion, four hundred seventy seven ducentoctooctogintilliard, seventy three ducentoctooctogintillion, nine hundred thirty ducentseptenoctogintilliard, six hundred thirty four ducentseptenoctogintillion, four hundred thirty six ducentsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred forty ducentsexoctogintillion, eighty four ducentquinoctogintilliard, four hundred sixty eight ducentquinoctogintillion, two hundred fifty five ducentquattuoroctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty seven ducentquattuoroctogintillion, four hundred forty three ducenttreoctogintilliard, four hundred fifty one ducenttreoctogintillion, six hundred ninety ducentdooctogintilliard, three hundred fifteen ducentdooctogintillion, nine hundred ninety nine ducentunoctogintilliard, three hundred forty nine ducentunoctogintillion, one hundred thirty seven ducentoctogintilliard, six hundred sixty four ducentoctogintillion, six hundred thirty eight ducentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight ducentnovemseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy two ducentoctoseptuagintilliard, six hundred fourteen ducentoctoseptuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine ducentseptenseptuagintilliard, fifteen ducentseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred four ducentsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred six ducentsexseptuagintillion, five hundred forty seven ducentquinseptuagintilliard, eight hundred nineteen ducentquinseptuagintillion, fifty six ducentquattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty seven ducentquattuorseptuagintillion, one hundred seventy one ducenttreseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty four ducenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentdoseptuagintilliard, seventy ducentdoseptuagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine ducentunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentunseptuagintillion, three hundred ducentseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three ducentseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five ducentnovemsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty three ducentnovemsexagintillion, four hundred forty one ducentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred seven ducentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred twenty ducentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred one ducentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred sixty three ducentsexsexagintilliard, five hundred thirty two ducentsexsexagintillion, two hundred thirty four ducentquinsexagintilliard, four hundred sixty six ducentquinsexagintillion, five hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred ninety five ducenttresexagintilliard, seven hundred seventy four ducenttresexagintillion, three hundred thirty one ducentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred eighty five ducentdosexagintillion, forty four ducentunsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight ducentunsexagintillion, two hundred fifty ducentsexagintilliard, one hundred forty eight ducentsexagintillion, six hundred sixty three ducentnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred sixty seven ducentnovemquinquagintillion, three hundred seventy two ducentoctoquinquagintilliard, one hundred thirty ducentoctoquinquagintillion, three hundred ninety two ducentseptenquinquagintilliard, ninety nine ducentseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety four ducentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two ducentsexquinquagintillion, one hundred forty five ducentquinquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety ducentquinquinquagintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquattuorquinquagintilliard, two hundred thirty two ducentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy eight ducenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventy two ducenttrequinquagintillion, four hundred eighty six ducentdoquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty ducentdoquinquagintillion, five hundred thirteen ducentunquinquagintilliard, ten ducentunquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen ducentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine ducentquinquagintillion, nine hundred two ducentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety two ducentnovemquadragintillion, five hundred eighteen ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seven hundred nineteen ducentoctoquadragintillion, two hundred fifty ducentseptenquadragintilliard, sixty six ducentseptenquadragintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentsexquadragintilliard, two hundred fifteen ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred six ducentquinquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty six ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred sixteen ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, two hundred forty eight ducentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred ninety six ducenttrequadragintilliard, two hundred forty ducenttrequadragintillion, five hundred sixty nine ducentdoquadragintilliard, two hundred fifty six ducentdoquadragintillion, eight hundred sixty five ducentunquadragintilliard, five hundred fifty four ducentunquadragintillion, two hundred ninety six ducentquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty one ducentquadragintillion, five hundred fifty two ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two hundred eleven ducentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred sixty ducentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred twenty seven ducentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred seventy eight ducentseptentrigintilliard, six hundred sixty two ducentseptentrigintillion, five hundred forty five ducentsextrigintilliard, nine hundred thirty six ducentsextrigintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquintrigintilliard, eight hundred one ducentquintrigintillion, seventy ducentquattuortrigintilliard, one hundred eighty six ducentquattuortrigintillion, one hundred sixty two ducenttretrigintilliard, six hundred one ducenttretrigintillion, four hundred seventy six ducentdotrigintilliard, four hundred seventy four ducentdotrigintillion, two hundred ninety three ducentuntrigintilliard, four hundred fifty nine ducentuntrigintillion, eight hundred thirty ducenttrigintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducenttrigintillion, six hundred fifty one ducentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred seventy three ducentnovemvigintillion, three hundred sixty three ducentoctovigintilliard, four hundred sixty two ducentoctovigintillion, seven hundred thirty two ducentseptenvigintilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptenvigintillion, eight hundred eighty three ducentsexvigintilliard, sixty ducentsexvigintillion, seven hundred one ducentquinvigintilliard, four hundred ten ducentquinvigintillion, three hundred fifty nine ducentquattuorvigintilliard, two hundred fifty four ducentquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred twenty nine ducenttrevigintilliard, one hundred forty nine ducenttrevigintillion, seven hundred seventy four ducentdovigintilliard, three hundred thirty nine ducentdovigintillion, two hundred ninety seven ducentunvigintilliard, one hundred seventy three ducentunvigintillion, six hundred eighty ducentvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty five ducentvigintillion, six hundred ten ducentnovemdecilliard, nine hundred fifty nine ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred ninety nine ducentoctodecilliard, nine hundred eleven ducentoctodecillion, three hundred nine ducentseptendecilliard, one hundred eighty nine ducentseptendecillion, seven hundred eighty eight ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred thirty eight ducentsexdecillion, three hundred fifty ducentquindecilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentquindecillion, six hundred thirty five ducentquattuordecilliard, six hundred seventy two ducentquattuordecillion, six hundred sixty one ducenttredecilliard, four hundred thirty five ducenttredecillion, nine hundred sixty nine ducentdodecilliard, two hundred eighteen ducentdodecillion, two hundred thirty nine ducentundecilliard, nine hundred seventy seven ducentundecillion, one hundred ninety six ducentdecilliard, nine hundred thirty three ducentdecillion, eight hundred seventy four ducentnovemtilliard, three hundred ninety five ducentnovemtillion, four hundred three ducentoctotilliard, nine hundred ninety six ducentoctotillion, six hundred twenty three ducentseptentilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptentillion, five hundred eighty ducentsextilliard, five hundred twenty eight ducentsextillion, two hundred eleven ducentquintilliard, two hundred seven ducentquintillion, one hundred thirty six ducentquattuortilliard, three hundred ninety six ducentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy ducenttretilliard, eight hundred fifty eight ducenttretillion, fifty six ducentdotilliard, fifty one ducentdotillion, one hundred sixty ducentuntilliard, seven hundred eighty one ducentuntillion, seven hundred seventy ducentilliard, nine hundred eighty five ducentillion, four hundred fifty two centnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventy six centnovemnonagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centoctononagintilliard, thirty two centoctononagintillion, three hundred thirty three centseptennonagintilliard, eight hundred twelve centseptennonagintillion, nine hundred thirty nine centsexnonagintilliard, two hundred seventy two centsexnonagintillion, seven hundred fifty two centquinnonagintilliard, one hundred one centquinnonagintillion, nine hundred forty four centquattuornonagintilliard, six hundred twenty nine centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred twenty seven centtrenonagintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrenonagintillion, three hundred thirteen centdononagintilliard, eight hundred thirty five centdononagintillion, five hundred fifty one centunnonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty five centunnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven centnonagintilliard, ninety five centnonagintillion, nine hundred twenty eight centnovemoctogintilliard, eight hundred eighty five centnovemoctogintillion, two hundred thirty six centoctooctogintilliard, four hundred fifteen centoctooctogintillion, three hundred one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred eighty nine centseptenoctogintillion, two hundred eighteen centsexoctogintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsexoctogintillion, one hundred forty one centquinoctogintilliard, fourteen centquinoctogintillion, five hundred forty one centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred three centquattuoroctogintillion, ninety six centtreoctogintilliard, one hundred ninety one centtreoctogintillion, two hundred seventy centdooctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty four centdooctogintillion, three hundred sixty nine centunoctogintilliard, thirty nine centunoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two centoctogintilliard, ninety eight centoctogintillion, two hundred eighty centnovemseptuagintilliard, three hundred seventeen centnovemseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty eight centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty two centoctoseptuagintillion, sixty one centseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty five centseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centsexseptuagintillion, six hundred forty three centquinseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty eight centquinseptuagintillion, four hundred three centquattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty seven centtreseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety centdoseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty four centdoseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty three centunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centunseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety two centseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven centseptuagintillion, four hundred seventy two centnovemsexagintilliard, two hundred thirty one centnovemsexagintillion, two hundred nineteen centoctosexagintilliard, thirty two centoctosexagintillion, three hundred eighty five centseptensexagintilliard, two hundred eighty one centseptensexagintillion, thirty four centsexsexagintilliard, ninety one centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred six centquinsexagintillion, six hundred eighteen centquattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred forty seven centquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred forty centtresexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty seven centtresexagintillion, two hundred sixty five centdosexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four centdosexagintillion, two hundred eighty four centunsexagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three centunsexagintillion, three hundred four centsexagintilliard, four hundred seventy four centsexagintillion, eight hundred sixty one centnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty four centnovemquinquagintillion, nine hundred forty two centoctoquinquagintilliard, seventy six centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety nine centseptenquinquagintilliard, forty one centseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine centsexquinquagintilliard, four hundred forty seven centsexquinquagintillion, one hundred sixty five centquinquinquagintilliard, eight hundred thirty eight centquinquinquagintillion, two hundred eighty one centquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred ten centtrequinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred thirty one centdoquinquagintilliard, two hundred six centdoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety centunquinquagintilliard, five hundred one centunquinquagintillion, nine hundred fourteen centquinquagintilliard, five hundred twenty seven centquinquagintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemquadragintilliard, two hundred eighty seven centnovemquadragintillion, three hundred seventy centoctoquadragintilliard, three hundred thirty nine centoctoquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy four centseptenquadragintilliard, seven hundred seven centseptenquadragintillion, two hundred six centsexquadragintilliard, sixteen centsexquadragintillion, eight hundred eighty two centquinquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty two centquinquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty seven centquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred four centquattuorquadragintillion, two hundred seventy centtrequadragintilliard, one hundred seventy centtrequadragintillion, three hundred twenty two centdoquadragintilliard, six hundred six centdoquadragintillion, seven hundred twenty seven centunquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty centunquadragintillion, three hundred forty three centquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy nine centquadragintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemtrigintilliard, four hundred twenty five centnovemtrigintillion, seven hundred thirty centoctotrigintilliard, ninety one centoctotrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred thirteen centseptentrigintillion, seventy seven centsextrigintilliard, seven hundred nineteen centsextrigintillion, three hundred twenty two centquintrigintilliard, four hundred fifty five centquintrigintillion, three hundred ninety four centquattuortrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three centquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred sixty centtretrigintilliard, six hundred six centtretrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centdotrigintilliard, two hundred fourteen centdotrigintillion, three hundred twenty six centuntrigintilliard, six hundred three centuntrigintillion, one hundred fifty six centtrigintilliard, one hundred forty one centtrigintillion, four hundred ninety centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred forty centnovemvigintillion, five hundred fifty seven centoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety eight centoctovigintillion, fifty five centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred sixty six centseptenvigintillion, two hundred sixty three centsexvigintilliard, forty four centsexvigintillion, four hundred forty seven centquinvigintilliard, five hundred eighty three centquinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty six centquattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred eleven centquattuorvigintillion, five hundred sixteen centtrevigintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrevigintillion, one hundred eighty one centdovigintilliard, one hundred ninety three centdovigintillion, four hundred forty two centunvigintilliard, two hundred thirty six centunvigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine centvigintilliard, four hundred twenty four centvigintillion, one hundred fifty one centnovemdecilliard, eight hundred forty three centnovemdecillion, seven hundred ninety five centoctodecilliard, three hundred eighty nine centoctodecillion, three hundred thirty five centseptendecilliard, seven hundred sixty five centseptendecillion, four hundred thirty two centsexdecilliard, one hundred twenty nine centsexdecillion, nine hundred forty four centquindecilliard, fifty four centquindecillion, eight hundred fifty five centquattuordecilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuordecillion, one hundred fifty five centtredecilliard, eight hundred fifty nine centtredecillion, two hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, four hundred twenty four centdodecillion, five hundred sixty one centundecilliard, eight hundred twenty five centundecillion, one hundred forty six centdecilliard, eight hundred thirteen centdecillion, seven hundred fourteen centnovemtilliard, seven hundred twenty centnovemtillion, six hundred six centoctotilliard, two hundred eighty seven centoctotillion, seven hundred eighty one centseptentilliard, twenty one centseptentillion, two hundred forty centsextilliard, nine hundred twenty three centsextillion, seven hundred eight centquintilliard, twenty one centquintillion, four hundred ninety two centquattuortilliard, two hundred ninety eight centquattuortillion, three hundred forty nine centtretilliard, six hundred thirty five centtretillion, one hundred seventy nine centdotilliard, five hundred twenty seven centdotillion, two hundred seventy centuntilliard, three hundred two centuntillion, nine hundred sixty two centilliard, nine hundred seventy centillion, one hundred fifty six novemnonagintilliard, nine hundred twenty seven novemnonagintillion, six hundred eighty six octononagintilliard, five hundred eleven octononagintillion, six hundred thirty five septennonagintilliard, fifty septennonagintillion, eighty sexnonagintilliard, four hundred seven sexnonagintillion, two hundred eighty two quinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy four quinnonagintillion, two hundred fifty two quattuornonagintilliard, three hundred sixty two quattuornonagintillion, six hundred forty four trenonagintilliard, six hundred ninety five trenonagintillion, seven hundred ten dononagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine dononagintillion, seven hundred sixty eight unnonagintilliard, eight hundred sixty six unnonagintillion, one hundred thirty seven nonagintilliard, three hundred two nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty nine novemoctogintilliard, three hundred thirteen novemoctogintillion, six hundred nine octooctogintilliard, six hundred seventy four octooctogintillion, three hundred eighty two septenoctogintilliard, seven hundred nineteen septenoctogintillion, seventeen sexoctogintilliard, three hundred eighty five sexoctogintillion, five hundred eight quinoctogintilliard, four hundred eighty four quinoctogintillion, six hundred sixty three quattuoroctogintilliard, three hundred seventy three quattuoroctogintillion, four hundred seventy six treoctogintilliard, one hundred twenty treoctogintillion, eight hundred forty three dooctogintilliard, five hundred sixty seven dooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty three unoctogintilliard, sixty five unoctogintillion, fifty nine octogintilliard, five hundred fifty eight octogintillion, seventy two novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty five novemseptuagintillion, one hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty seven octoseptuagintillion, five hundred forty four septenseptuagintilliard, two hundred forty septenseptuagintillion, eight hundred seven sexseptuagintilliard, three hundred fifty sexseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty seven quinseptuagintilliard, eighty two quinseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven quattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred thirty three quattuorseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy nine treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight treseptuagintillion, eight hundred seventy four doseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty three unseptuagintilliard, five hundred eighty four unseptuagintillion, five hundred twenty three septuagintilliard, ninety five septuagintillion, six hundred thirty eight novemsexagintilliard, nine hundred ninety six novemsexagintillion, one hundred twenty octosexagintilliard, six hundred sixteen octosexagintillion, three hundred eighteen septensexagintilliard, six hundred thirty four septensexagintillion, three hundred ninety one sexsexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven sexsexagintillion, one hundred twelve quinsexagintilliard, eighty six quinsexagintillion, four hundred sixty four quattuorsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty four quattuorsexagintillion, six hundred forty nine tresexagintilliard, four hundred seventy tresexagintillion, nine hundred sixty three dosexagintilliard, two hundred thirty dosexagintillion, seventy two unsexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine unsexagintillion, two hundred sexagintilliard, nine hundred twelve sexagintillion, five hundred eighty six novemquinquagintilliard, one hundred forty seven novemquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty seven octoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred ninety nine octoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two septenquinquagintilliard, four hundred ninety six septenquinquagintillion, seven hundred nine sexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two sexquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty nine quinquinquagintilliard, five hundred three quinquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty five quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred twenty four trequinquagintilliard, four hundred sixteen trequinquagintillion, two hundred two doquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven doquinquagintillion, seven hundred twenty unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty one unquinquagintillion, two hundred forty eight quinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty three quinquagintillion, five hundred ninety two novemquadragintilliard, two hundred two novemquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty eight octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty three octoquadragintillion, three hundred eleven septenquadragintilliard, one hundred forty septenquadragintillion, eight hundred thirty three sexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty three sexquadragintillion, three hundred two quinquadragintilliard, four hundred thirty three quinquadragintillion, nine hundred seventeen quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quattuorquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy six trequadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety trequadragintillion, three hundred eleven doquadragintilliard, four hundred twenty five doquadragintillion, eight hundred forty three unquadragintilliard, six hundred nineteen unquadragintillion, three hundred fifty quadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty six quadragintillion, seven hundred fifty four novemtrigintilliard, four hundred eighty three novemtrigintillion, eight hundred eleven octotrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four octotrigintillion, four hundred eight septentrigintilliard, eight hundred twelve septentrigintillion, seven hundred sixty three sextrigintilliard, three hundred eighty eight sextrigintillion, eighty four quintrigintilliard, two hundred four quintrigintillion, four hundred fifty one quattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred four quattuortrigintillion, nine hundred twelve tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty four tretrigintillion, three hundred eighty three dotrigintilliard, eight hundred eighty four dotrigintillion, one hundred eighty untrigintilliard, eight hundred untrigintillion, nine hundred forty five trigintilliard, two hundred seventy five trigintillion, six hundred twenty six novemvigintilliard, six hundred sixty eight novemvigintillion, fifty seven octovigintilliard, six hundred twenty eight octovigintillion, nine hundred fifty four septenvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three septenvigintillion, three hundred eighty four sexvigintilliard, six hundred forty one sexvigintillion, three hundred five quinvigintilliard, one hundred seven quinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty three quattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy three quattuorvigintillion, two hundred forty seven trevigintilliard, eighty two trevigintillion, four hundred ninety five dovigintilliard, eight hundred four dovigintillion, five hundred thirty three unvigintilliard, three hundred fifty five unvigintillion, seven hundred seventeen vigintilliard, four hundred eighty one vigintillion, nine hundred sixty five novemdecilliard, twenty five novemdecillion, seventy octodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen octodecillion, seven hundred thirty septendecilliard, four hundred sixty six septendecillion, four hundred twenty two sexdecilliard, eight hundred twenty six sexdecillion, one hundred five quindecilliard, six hundred ninety seven quindecillion, five hundred ten quattuordecilliard, five hundred sixty four quattuordecillion, two hundred eighty nine tredecilliard, seven hundred ninety eight tredecillion, nine hundred fifty one dodecilliard, one hundred eighty two dodecillion, one hundred ninety two undecilliard, eight hundred eighty five undecillion, nine hundred seventy six decilliard, three hundred fifty two decillion, two hundred twenty nine nonilliard, fifty three nonillion, eight hundred ninety eight octilliard, nine hundred forty eight octillion, seven hundred thirty seven septilliard, six hundred fourteen septillion, six hundred forty two sextilliard, one hundred thirty nine sextillion, nine hundred ten quintilliard, nine hundred eleven quintillion, five hundred thirty five quadrilliard, eight hundred sixty four quadrillion, five hundred five trilliard, eight hundred eighteen trillion, nine hundred ninety two billiard, six hundred ninety six billion, eight hundred twenty six milliard, two hundred twenty five million, seven hundred fifty four thousand, one hundred eleven

is mersenne prime #21

Re:Go to bed micheal! by spazoid12 · 2003-01-01 06:03 · Score: 0, Troll

hahaha. That one is pretty funny, too. Oh man, I wish I were the only one with mod points to correctly score these. Somebody is being far too sensitive... often, a trollish flamebait is appropriate and funny. here's one.
Re:Go to bed micheal! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:06 · Score: 0

four quadringentsexoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty two quadringentquinoctogintilliard

Shut the fuck up you stupid fucking limey.

Leave it to the fucking Brits, after a thousand years of continuous civilization, to still have trouble with the decimal system.
Re:Go to bed micheal! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:25 · Score: 0

Priceless.
Re:Go to bed micheal! by os2fan · 2003-01-01 12:10 · Score: 2

The author ofthe number is not using the british system, but the European system. This is evident from the use of -illards, the absence of 'and', and a few other things.
The selected number here is 2^64, the decimal expansion of which is 18 446 744 073 709 551 616.
USA = eighteen pentillion, four hundred forty six quadrillion, seven hundred forty four trillion, seventy three billion, seven hundred nine million, five hundred fifty one thousand six hundred sixteen.
EUR = eighteen trillion, four hundred forty six billiard, seven hundred forty four billion, seventy three milliard, seven hundred nine million, five hundred fifty one thousand six hundred sixteen.
UK = eighteen trillion, four hundred and forty-six thousand, seven hundred and forty-four billion, seventy-three thousand, seven hundred and nine million, five hundred and fifty-one thousand six hundred and sixteen.
NEW = three hundred and sixtynine billion, one cention, fiftyseven thousand, thirtyone hundred and eleftynine million, fifty centions, seven thosand, ninety hundred and sixteen.

--
OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
Re:Go to bed micheal! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 05:56 · Score: 0

the decimal expansion of which is 18 446 744 073 709 551 616.
Would you mind not posting my telephone number on Slashdot?
Re:Go to bed micheal! by os2fan · 2003-01-04 01:14 · Score: 2

the number has too many digits for even an international telephone number. So i suspect some humour.

The number is given as being a famous number, being 2^64.

On the other hand, if you're from the USA, then dialing short+short+short+short and ask the operators for connections is the way you call people (see "operator" song by Elvis).

--
OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.

These types of stories need MORE publicity by ThresholdRPG · 2003-01-01 05:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is the kind of stuff that threatens to GUT one of the most important benefits of the internet. The ability to ridicule a company or government for things it has done to cause real harm to others is quite possibly one of the most important types of freedom of expression.

It is absolutely vital to the continued existence of the internet as a medium of free speech that large corporations are NOT allowed to squelch opinions that do not cast them in a favorable light.

There is, however, a place where the line should be drawn. When creators of parody sites or critical sites start publishing people's real life names, home addresses, and other personal information against their will, then they have gone to far. At that point, they are putting actual people and their families at risk. When you create a parody or critical web site, you do not know what kind of people will visit the site. Some of the people who visit the site may be very unstable individuals capable of all sorts of terrible things. For a host of reasons, they might decide to utilize the personal information in order to cause real physical harm to the person being criticised or that person's family.

Perhaps the web site riled up their anger, or perhaps they thought the site was so amusing that they want to "thank" the creators by going out and causing real harm to the targets of the web site. This kind of stuff DOES happen folks, so don't blow it off as mere paranoia.

The reason I even bring up this issue is because of this part of the article:

> "We even put down James Parker's real home
> address! Very funny, right? Yes! Funny!"
> the Yes Men said in a statement.

Actually no, that is not funny. The only funny part about that was that James Parker was able to seize the domain name by presenting his drivers license and proof that he was the James Parker in question. ;p

> "But on Dec. 4, James Parker himself, with the
> help of a team of Dow lawyers, sent a Xerox of
> his driver's license and a letter by FedEx to
> Gandi.net, saying, basically, "This domain
> belongs to me. See, that's my home address,
> too. Give it to me!"
>
> According to rules established by the Internet
> Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers --
> an organization responsible for, among other
> chores, Internet address disputes -- Parker was
> correct and Gandi.net had no legal choice but
> to hand over Dow-Chemical.com to James Parker.

That part I find absolutely hilarious =).

So while it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that governments and corporations NOT be allowed to squelch parody sites or sites that are critical of their behavior, it is equally important that the creators of such sites be prevented from distributing personal information about individuals.

The dangers inherent in the former put our freedoms at risk, just as the dangers inherent in the latter put lives at risk.

--

-Michael
Threshold RPG

Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by FearUncertaintyDoubt · 2003-01-01 07:16 · Score: 1

There is, however, a place where the line should be drawn. When creators of parody sites or critical sites start publishing people's real life names, home addresses, and other personal information against their will, then they have gone to far.
I don't agree with that in cases where the person's information is already public. If you can find that information on the public internet, then why would repeating it be illegal? And if repeating it in the context of a parody doesn't make it less legal. Using someone's real name always raises the spectre of libel, however.
When you create a parody or critical web site, you do not know what kind of people will visit the site. Some of the people who visit the site may be very unstable individuals capable of all sorts of terrible things. For a host of reasons, they might decide to utilize the personal information in order to cause real physical harm to the person being criticised or that person's family.
This is in the realm of good judgement, but not law. Is People Magazine responsible for all the stalkers who fall in love with celebrities? According to your logic, one could say that People "incited" some mentally unbalanced person to go after Jennifer Aniston (hey, I said they were unbalanced). Do I think People Magazine contributes to the cult of celebrity which is detrimental to society? Yes. Do I think they are legally culpable for that? No. And unstable people watch CNN, too. If they see coverage of an oil spill on CNN and then go kill an oil company CEO, is CNN liable?
You can't know what effect your speech will have. And you can't make people responsible for how someone else might interpret that. Only when there is no room for interpretation, such as "kill him!" can you make a case for someone's words directly leading to a criminal act.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by Rogerborg · 2003-01-01 08:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

Isn't it James Parker's actions that put him and his family (THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) at risk?
What you are suggesting is - effectively - that those with power and influence must be protected from the consequences of their own actions. Does anything strike you as wrong with that?

--
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by harlows_monkeys · 2003-01-01 08:51 · Score: 2

This is the kind of stuff that threatens to GUT one of the most important benefits of the internet. The ability to ridicule a company or government for things it has done to cause real harm to others is quite possibly one of the most important types of freedom of expression
That ability is not threatened at all by this. What is threatened is the ability to try to deceive people so as to mislead them about a company or government.
These sites were not parody sites. They were trying to confuse people into thinking they were Dow's site, and are using the claim of parody to try to hide their attempted identity theft.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 11:21 · Score: 0

Troll score: 2 of 10
Tired technique.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by k_stamour · 2003-01-01 11:32 · Score: 1

Is there such a thing (no pun intended) as Distributed or P2P hosting? Not having a Single point of support for example. (With a sort of Permanence of NEWS Servers)

--
Julius Caesar - Act I, Scene i: "What mean'st thou by that? Mend me, thou saucy fellow!"
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by ManxStef · 2003-01-01 11:56 · Score: 1

It is absolutely vital to the continued existence of the internet as a medium of free speech that large corporations are NOT allowed to squelch opinions that do not cast them in a favorable light.

In that case, can anyone tell me why this story doesn't seem to have got any press in the US, and limited coverage in the UK?:

US wrecks cheap drugs deal - Cheney's intervention blocks pact to help poor countries after pharmaceutical firms lobby White House.

This story also draws comment in the Guardian's Leaders column:

"When pushed to do so, the Bush administration will feign concern for the world's poor. But its actions speak louder than its words. The intervention by vice-president Dick Cheney last week to torpedo a deal to get cheap drugs into poor countries whose populaces have been consumed by epidemics was a cold-hearted piece of realpolitik. Forget the honey-coated pledges of support for development and warm declarations that global prosperity must be shared. The United States was the only country out of 144 to oppose an agreement that would have relaxed global patent rules on treatments. The richest nation on the earth backed the arguments of the drug lobby over the cries of the weak and wasted. In doing so the US has emptied the current round of trade talks of a meaningful and substantial proof that globalisation could help the poor." (read more)

And then Americans wonder why a vast proportion of the rest of the world hates their Government? Maybe it's because they continually let their large corporations get away with murder ...

A corporation has no soul to damn; no body to kick.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 12:17 · Score: 0

A corporation has no soul to damn; no body to kick.

And it's potentially immortal.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by kputnam · 2003-01-01 21:00 · Score: 1

While I agree that parody and critism are important parts of our freedom of speech, home addresses and other information related to normal citizens are all available on www.whitepages.com and any phone book. While you can pay to have them removed (or hell, don't have a phone in the first place), the crime should not be publishing someone's home address or other mildy personal information. The crime would be someone stalking them or harassing or even harming them, by restricting speech that way it is analogous to not allowing publication of books about hacking networks, building bombs, or sneaking past airport security.

And don't you think that maybe if James Parker's address was published inside of a praising article about how he cleaned up the mess in India he wouldn't feel so threatened? Since his actions were instead atrocious, he better feel threatened to have his address published and he better expect to face some kind of consequences for his actions too.
Re:These types of stories need MORE publicity by herbierobinson · 2003-01-01 21:30 · Score: 2

You misquoted the story in a big way. They didn't mention James Parker in the hoax, they put him down as the owner of the domain name (i.e., the creator of the hoax). Of course, that was more than a little bit stupid (as they found out).

--
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us

RTFA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:46 · Score: 0

"We did an earlier story on this." -- TFA

Is this the best whoring you could do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:47 · Score: 0

Here I am fresh out of -1 stupids for you.

Re:Is this the best whoring you could do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:49 · Score: 0

That's why you shouldn't use them on yourself.

GO TO BED by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:48 · Score: -1, Offtopic

four quadringentsexoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty two quadringentquinoctogintilliard, two hundred two quadringentquinoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight quadringentquattuoroctogintilliard, fifty four quadringentquattuoroctogintillion, six hundred twelve quadringenttreoctogintilliard, twenty nine quadringenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty eight quadringentdooctogintilliard, three hundred ninety two quadringentdooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty six quadringentunoctogintilliard, six hundred quadringentunoctogintillion, fifty nine quadringentoctogintilliard, ninety seven quadringentoctogintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy one quadringentnovemseptuagintillion, seven hundred twenty four quadringentoctoseptuagintilliard, twenty two quadringentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred sixty five quadringentseptenseptuagintilliard, eight quadringentseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred thirteen quadringentsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty five quadringentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred nine quadringentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred eighteen quadringentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy eight quadringentquattuorseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty quadringentquattuorseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty two quadringenttreseptuagintilliard, six hundred sixty two quadringenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy quadringentdoseptuagintilliard, two hundred seventy eight quadringentdoseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty seven quadringentunseptuagintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentunseptuagintillion, one hundred twelve quadringentseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seven quadringentseptuagintillion, eight hundred ninety four quadringentnovemsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty six quadringentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four quadringentoctosexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty quadringentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred eighty one quadringentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four quadringentseptensexagintillion, two hundred fifty six quadringentsexsexagintilliard, three hundred nineteen quadringentsexsexagintillion, three hundred six quadringentquinsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty five quadringentquinsexagintillion, fifty two quadringentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred seventy six quadringentquattuorsexagintillion, eight hundred thirty four quadringenttresexagintilliard, eighty seven quadringenttresexagintillion, four hundred eighty quadringentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four quadringentdosexagintillion, four hundred twenty nine quadringentunsexagintilliard, four hundred thirty three quadringentunsexagintillion, two hundred sixty four quadringentsexagintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quadringentsexagintillion, four hundred twenty five quadringentnovemquinquagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three quadringentnovemquinquagintillion, two hundred forty seven quadringentoctoquinquagintilliard, six hundred twenty three quadringentoctoquinquagintillion, six hundred eighty eight quadringentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred thirty one quadringentseptenquinquagintillion, twenty one quadringentsexquinquagintilliard, six hundred thirty three quadringentsexquinquagintillion, two hundred eight quadringentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty four quadringentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred forty seven quadringentquattuorquinquagintilliard, three hundred fifty four quadringentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred five quadringenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred ninety nine quadringenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred forty three quadringentdoquinquagintilliard, three hundred forty one quadringentdoquinquagintillion, three hundred nine quadringentunquinquagintilliard, eight hundred twenty five quadringentunquinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty nine quadringentquinquagintilliard, thirteen quadringentquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty three quadringentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred six quadringentnovemquadragintillion, one hundred eighty seven quadringentoctoquadragintilliard, one hundred nine quadringentoctoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty one quadringentseptenquadragintilliard, forty three quadringentseptenquadragintillion, one hundred forty eight quadringentsexquadragintilliard, six hundred eighty quadringentsexquadragintillion, eight hundred thirteen quadringentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy eight quadringentquinquadragintillion, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty quadringentquattuorquadragintillion, four hundred ninety six quadringenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred fifteen quadringenttrequadragintillion, six hundred one quadringentdoquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty three quadringentdoquadragintillion, two hundred eighty two quadringentunquadragintilliard, six hundred twenty four quadringentunquadragintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentquadragintilliard, forty quadringentquadragintillion, three hundred ninety eight quadringentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred forty three quadringentnovemtrigintillion, two hundred seven quadringentoctotrigintilliard, six hundred twenty two quadringentoctotrigintillion, thirty six quadringentseptentrigintilliard, two hundred seventy two quadringentseptentrigintillion, one hundred ninety quadringentsextrigintilliard, four hundred eight quadringentsextrigintillion, five hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintilliard, seven hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintillion, five hundred thirty seven quadringentquattuortrigintilliard, two hundred three quadringentquattuortrigintillion, four hundred seventy five quadringenttretrigintilliard, two hundred fifty six quadringenttretrigintillion, one hundred five quadringentdotrigintilliard, five hundred sixty four quadringentdotrigintillion, seventy one quadringentuntrigintilliard, five hundred seventy nine quadringentuntrigintillion, two hundred sixty three quadringenttrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty seven quadringenttrigintillion, eight hundred seventy five quadringentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred forty quadringentnovemvigintillion, nine hundred eighty five quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy three quadringentoctovigintillion, three hundred fifty six quadringentseptenvigintilliard, five hundred twenty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, six hundred fifty six quadringentsexvigintilliard, one hundred eight quadringentsexvigintillion, five hundred forty two quadringentquinvigintilliard, one hundred twenty eight quadringentquinvigintillion, five hundred seventy seven quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorvigintillion, fifty seven quadringenttrevigintilliard, eight hundred seventy nine quadringenttrevigintillion, fifty two quadringentdovigintilliard, three hundred twenty eight quadringentdovigintillion, eight hundred sixty five quadringentunvigintilliard, thirty five quadringentunvigintillion, three hundred fifty five quadringentvigintilliard, eight hundred seventy three quadringentvigintillion, six hundred fifteen quadringentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy nine quadringentnovemdecillion, three hundred sixty three quadringentoctodecilliard, six hundred fifty five quadringentoctodecillion, eight hundred eighty nine quadringentseptendecilliard, nine hundred twenty five quadringentseptendecillion, seven hundred eleven quadringentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty quadringentquindecilliard, one hundred fifty three quadringentquindecillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringentquattuordecilliard, ninety one quadringentquattuordecillion, seven hundred fifty two quadringenttredecilliard, four hundred twenty two quadringenttredecillion, eight hundred forty three quadringentdodecilliard, forty six quadringentdodecillion, nine hundred eighteen quadringentundecilliard, eight hundred eleven quadringentundecillion, four hundred twenty seven quadringentdecilliard, four hundred quadringentdecillion, six hundred sixty two quadringentnovemtilliard, one hundred thirty five quadringentnovemtillion, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotilliard, three hundred three quadringentoctotillion, five hundred sixteen quadringentseptentilliard, eight hundred fifty three quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred three quadringentsextilliard, nine hundred seventy six quadringentsextillion, eight hundred twelve quadringentquintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentquintillion, three hundred eighty five quadringentquattuortilliard, seven hundred fifty quadringentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy six quadringenttretilliard, two hundred twenty seven quadringenttretillion, seven hundred eighty seven quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred forty nine quadringentdotillion, five hundred eighty quadringentuntilliard, five hundred eighty two quadringentuntillion, eighty one quadringentilliard, eight hundred thirty one quadringentillion, two hundred sixty one trecentnovemnonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five trecentnovemnonagintillion, seven hundred one trecentoctononagintilliard, three trecentoctononagintillion, four hundred ninety eight trecentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred six trecentseptennonagintillion, five hundred twelve trecentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentsexnonagintillion, eight hundred seventy two trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy seven trecentquinnonagintillion, two hundred thirty three trecentquattuornonagintilliard, four hundred eighty nine trecentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ten trecenttrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecenttrenonagintillion, four hundred sixty nine trecentdononagintilliard, three hundred seventy five trecentdononagintillion, six hundred eighty three trecentunnonagintilliard, thirty seven trecentunnonagintillion, thirty eight trecentnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy three trecentnonagintillion, nine hundred ninety nine trecentnovemoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy one trecentoctooctogintilliard, five hundred eighty five trecentoctooctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight trecentseptenoctogintilliard, nine hundred five trecentseptenoctogintillion, six hundred thirty nine trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifteen trecentsexoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentquinoctogintilliard, six hundred thirteen trecentquinoctogintillion, four hundred five trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred ninety five trecentquattuoroctogintillion, seven hundred seven trecenttreoctogintilliard, one hundred eighty four trecenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentdooctogintilliard, one hundred fifty eight trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred nineteen trecentunoctogintilliard, two hundred eight trecentunoctogintillion, two hundred twenty three trecentoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty six trecentoctogintillion, four hundred forty two trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, fifty nine trecentnovemseptuagintillion, fourteen trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, five hundred ninety three trecentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven trecentseptenseptuagintillion, nine trecentsexseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty two trecentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred fifty three trecentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two trecentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy six trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, eight hundred fifty three trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred twenty three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy trecenttreseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty six trecentdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentdoseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy eight trecentunseptuagintilliard, eighty nine trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, six hundred twenty one trecentseptuagintillion, three hundred one trecentnovemsexagintilliard, one hundred sixty seven trecentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred eleven trecentoctosexagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine trecentoctosexagintillion, one hundred sixty six trecentseptensexagintilliard, four hundred seven trecentseptensexagintillion, three hundred sixty one trecentsexsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentsexsexagintillion, six hundred six trecentquinsexagintilliard, six hundred ninety seven trecentquinsexagintillion, eight hundred eight trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred eighty six trecentquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty seven trecenttresexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty six trecenttresexagintillion, nine hundred fourteen trecentdosexagintilliard, six hundred seventy one trecentdosexagintillion, two hundred forty six trecentunsexagintilliard, seventy three trecentunsexagintillion, seven hundred twelve trecentsexagintilliard, nine hundred four trecentsexagintillion, two hundred trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred eighty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, four hundred eight trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred twenty three trecentoctoquinquagintillion, one hundred eighty six trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty seven trecentseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven trecentsexquinquagintillion, six hundred seventy five trecentquinquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety two trecentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety seven trecenttrequinquagintilliard, sixty six trecenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty trecentdoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven trecentdoquinquagintillion, four hundred six trecentunquinquagintilliard, fifty three trecentunquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty trecentquinquagintilliard, one hundred twenty two trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred fifty three trecentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty nine trecentnovemquadragintillion, thirty six trecentoctoquadragintilliard, nine hundred sixty five trecentoctoquadragintillion, four hundred ninety trecentseptenquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty four trecentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecentsexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty four trecentsexquadragintillion, six hundred forty nine trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven trecentquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty four trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety eight trecentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred seventy eight trecenttrequadragintilliard, five hundred three trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred fourteen trecentdoquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty five trecentdoquadragintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy five trecentunquadragintillion, five hundred four trecentquadragintilliard, five hundred one trecentquadragintillion, six hundred eighty six trecentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred eighty seven trecentnovemtrigintillion, three hundred fifty four trecentoctotrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty six trecentoctotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty four trecentseptentrigintilliard, three hundred seventy four trecentseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two trecentsextrigintilliard, six hundred fourteen trecentsextrigintillion, one hundred twenty trecentquintrigintilliard, six hundred forty trecentquintrigintillion, seven hundred eighty two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred forty nine trecentquattuortrigintillion, six hundred twenty two trecenttretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty two trecenttretrigintillion, twenty seven trecentdotrigintilliard, seven hundred eighty eight trecentdotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty two trecentuntrigintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentuntrigintillion, six hundred two trecenttrigintilliard, six hundred sixty five trecenttrigintillion, nine hundred thirty three trecentnovemvigintilliard, one hundred forty seven trecentnovemvigintillion, six hundred eighty seven trecentoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentoctovigintillion, three hundred twenty two trecentseptenvigintilliard, eighty nine trecentseptenvigintillion, five hundred four trecentsexvigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight trecentsexvigintillion, seven hundred ninety one trecentquinvigintilliard, six hundred twenty four trecentquinvigintillion, six hundred fifty one trecentquattuorvigintilliard, five hundred nineteen trecentquattuorvigintillion, three hundred twelve trecenttrevigintilliard, three hundred twenty seven trecenttrevigintillion, eight hundred thirty one trecentdovigintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred fifty three trecentunvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecentunvigintillion, three hundred seventy seven trecentvigintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentvigintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy three trecentnovemdecillion, three hundred ninety five trecentoctodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen trecentoctodecillion, two hundred eighty one trecentseptendecilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentseptendecillion, six hundred sixty eight trecentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy six trecentsexdecillion, three hundred eighty four trecentquindecilliard, nineteen trecentquindecillion, five hundred ninety trecentquattuordecilliard, seven hundred twenty trecentquattuordecillion, one hundred seventy nine trecenttredecilliard, four hundred thirteen trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty nine trecentdodecilliard, five hundred eighty two trecentdodecillion, nine hundred seventy trecentundecilliard, three hundred nineteen trecentundecillion, three hundred ninety three trecentdecilliard, eight hundred eighty four trecentdecillion, three hundred eighty eight trecentnovemtilliard, eight hundred ten trecentnovemtillion, four hundred ninety four trecentoctotilliard, five hundred forty six trecentoctotillion, forty trecentseptentilliard, three hundred forty two trecentseptentillion, eighty seven trecentsextilliard, five hundred thirty six trecentsextillion, five hundred sixty three trecentquintilliard, six hundred twenty eight trecentquintillion, three hundred thirty two trecentquattuortilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentquattuortillion, seventy three trecenttretilliard, one hundred eighty one trecenttretillion, six hundred fourteen trecentdotilliard, three hundred trecentdotillion, seven hundred twenty one trecentuntilliard, seven hundred sixty nine trecentuntillion, three hundred seventy one trecentilliard, four hundred twenty six trecentillion, two hundred thirty eight ducentnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventeen ducentnovemnonagintillion, five hundred forty ducentoctononagintilliard, five hundred twenty ducentoctononagintillion, eight hundred forty five ducentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred fourteen ducentseptennonagintillion, six hundred sixty five ducentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred thirteen ducentsexnonagintillion, three hundred one ducentquinnonagintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducentquinnonagintillion, five hundred fifty one ducentquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two ducentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety one ducenttrenonagintilliard, eight hundred forty nine ducenttrenonagintillion, five hundred fifty eight ducentdononagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight ducentdononagintillion, four hundred ninety nine ducentunnonagintilliard, twenty five ducentunnonagintillion, three hundred forty eight ducentnonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty ducentnonagintillion, three hundred seventy six ducentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentnovemoctogintillion, four hundred seventy seven ducentoctooctogintilliard, seventy three ducentoctooctogintillion, nine hundred thirty ducentseptenoctogintilliard, six hundred thirty four ducentseptenoctogintillion, four hundred thirty six ducentsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred forty ducentsexoctogintillion, eighty four ducentquinoctogintilliard, four hundred sixty eight ducentquinoctogintillion, two hundred fifty five ducentquattuoroctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty seven ducentquattuoroctogintillion, four hundred forty three ducenttreoctogintilliard, four hundred fifty one ducenttreoctogintillion, six hundred ninety ducentdooctogintilliard, three hundred fifteen ducentdooctogintillion, nine hundred ninety nine ducentunoctogintilliard, three hundred forty nine ducentunoctogintillion, one hundred thirty seven ducentoctogintilliard, six hundred sixty four ducentoctogintillion, six hundred thirty eight ducentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight ducentnovemseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy two ducentoctoseptuagintilliard, six hundred fourteen ducentoctoseptuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine ducentseptenseptuagintilliard, fifteen ducentseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred four ducentsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred six ducentsexseptuagintillion, five hundred forty seven ducentquinseptuagintilliard, eight hundred nineteen ducentquinseptuagintillion, fifty six ducentquattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty seven ducentquattuorseptuagintillion, one hundred seventy one ducenttreseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty four ducenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentdoseptuagintilliard, seventy ducentdoseptuagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine ducentunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentunseptuagintillion, three hundred ducentseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three ducentseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five ducentnovemsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty three ducentnovemsexagintillion, four hundred forty one ducentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred seven ducentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred twenty ducentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred one ducentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred sixty three ducentsexsexagintilliard, five hundred thirty two ducentsexsexagintillion, two hundred thirty four ducentquinsexagintilliard, four hundred sixty six ducentquinsexagintillion, five hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred ninety five ducenttresexagintilliard, seven hundred seventy four ducenttresexagintillion, three hundred thirty one ducentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred eighty five ducentdosexagintillion, forty four ducentunsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight ducentunsexagintillion, two hundred fifty ducentsexagintilliard, one hundred forty eight ducentsexagintillion, six hundred sixty three ducentnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred sixty seven ducentnovemquinquagintillion, three hundred seventy two ducentoctoquinquagintilliard, one hundred thirty ducentoctoquinquagintillion, three hundred ninety two ducentseptenquinquagintilliard, ninety nine ducentseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety four ducentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two ducentsexquinquagintillion, one hundred forty five ducentquinquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety ducentquinquinquagintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquattuorquinquagintilliard, two hundred thirty two ducentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy eight ducenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventy two ducenttrequinquagintillion, four hundred eighty six ducentdoquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty ducentdoquinquagintillion, five hundred thirteen ducentunquinquagintilliard, ten ducentunquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen ducentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine ducentquinquagintillion, nine hundred two ducentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety two ducentnovemquadragintillion, five hundred eighteen ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seven hundred nineteen ducentoctoquadragintillion, two hundred fifty ducentseptenquadragintilliard, sixty six ducentseptenquadragintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentsexquadragintilliard, two hundred fifteen ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred six ducentquinquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty six ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred sixteen ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, two hundred forty eight ducentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred ninety six ducenttrequadragintilliard, two hundred forty ducenttrequadragintillion, five hundred sixty nine ducentdoquadragintilliard, two hundred fifty six ducentdoquadragintillion, eight hundred sixty five ducentunquadragintilliard, five hundred fifty four ducentunquadragintillion, two hundred ninety six ducentquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty one ducentquadragintillion, five hundred fifty two ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two hundred eleven ducentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred sixty ducentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred twenty seven ducentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred seventy eight ducentseptentrigintilliard, six hundred sixty two ducentseptentrigintillion, five hundred forty five ducentsextrigintilliard, nine hundred thirty six ducentsextrigintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquintrigintilliard, eight hundred one ducentquintrigintillion, seventy ducentquattuortrigintilliard, one hundred eighty six ducentquattuortrigintillion, one hundred sixty two ducenttretrigintilliard, six hundred one ducenttretrigintillion, four hundred seventy six ducentdotrigintilliard, four hundred seventy four ducentdotrigintillion, two hundred ninety three ducentuntrigintilliard, four hundred fifty nine ducentuntrigintillion, eight hundred thirty ducenttrigintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducenttrigintillion, six hundred fifty one ducentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred seventy three ducentnovemvigintillion, three hundred sixty three ducentoctovigintilliard, four hundred sixty two ducentoctovigintillion, seven hundred thirty two ducentseptenvigintilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptenvigintillion, eight hundred eighty three ducentsexvigintilliard, sixty ducentsexvigintillion, seven hundred one ducentquinvigintilliard, four hundred ten ducentquinvigintillion, three hundred fifty nine ducentquattuorvigintilliard, two hundred fifty four ducentquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred twenty nine ducenttrevigintilliard, one hundred forty nine ducenttrevigintillion, seven hundred seventy four ducentdovigintilliard, three hundred thirty nine ducentdovigintillion, two hundred ninety seven ducentunvigintilliard, one hundred seventy three ducentunvigintillion, six hundred eighty ducentvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty five ducentvigintillion, six hundred ten ducentnovemdecilliard, nine hundred fifty nine ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred ninety nine ducentoctodecilliard, nine hundred eleven ducentoctodecillion, three hundred nine ducentseptendecilliard, one hundred eighty nine ducentseptendecillion, seven hundred eighty eight ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred thirty eight ducentsexdecillion, three hundred fifty ducentquindecilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentquindecillion, six hundred thirty five ducentquattuordecilliard, six hundred seventy two ducentquattuordecillion, six hundred sixty one ducenttredecilliard, four hundred thirty five ducenttredecillion, nine hundred sixty nine ducentdodecilliard, two hundred eighteen ducentdodecillion, two hundred thirty nine ducentundecilliard, nine hundred seventy seven ducentundecillion, one hundred ninety six ducentdecilliard, nine hundred thirty three ducentdecillion, eight hundred seventy four ducentnovemtilliard, three hundred ninety five ducentnovemtillion, four hundred three ducentoctotilliard, nine hundred ninety six ducentoctotillion, six hundred twenty three ducentseptentilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptentillion, five hundred eighty ducentsextilliard, five hundred twenty eight ducentsextillion, two hundred eleven ducentquintilliard, two hundred seven ducentquintillion, one hundred thirty six ducentquattuortilliard, three hundred ninety six ducentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy ducenttretilliard, eight hundred fifty eight ducenttretillion, fifty six ducentdotilliard, fifty one ducentdotillion, one hundred sixty ducentuntilliard, seven hundred eighty one ducentuntillion, seven hundred seventy ducentilliard, nine hundred eighty five ducentillion, four hundred fifty two centnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventy six centnovemnonagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centoctononagintilliard, thirty two centoctononagintillion, three hundred thirty three centseptennonagintilliard, eight hundred twelve centseptennonagintillion, nine hundred thirty nine centsexnonagintilliard, two hundred seventy two centsexnonagintillion, seven hundred fifty two centquinnonagintilliard, one hundred one centquinnonagintillion, nine hundred forty four centquattuornonagintilliard, six hundred twenty nine centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred twenty seven centtrenonagintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrenonagintillion, three hundred thirteen centdononagintilliard, eight hundred thirty five centdononagintillion, five hundred fifty one centunnonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty five centunnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven centnonagintilliard, ninety five centnonagintillion, nine hundred twenty eight centnovemoctogintilliard, eight hundred eighty five centnovemoctogintillion, two hundred thirty six centoctooctogintilliard, four hundred fifteen centoctooctogintillion, three hundred one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred eighty nine centseptenoctogintillion, two hundred eighteen centsexoctogintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsexoctogintillion, one hundred forty one centquinoctogintilliard, fourteen centquinoctogintillion, five hundred forty one centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred three centquattuoroctogintillion, ninety six centtreoctogintilliard, one hundred ninety one centtreoctogintillion, two hundred seventy centdooctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty four centdooctogintillion, three hundred sixty nine centunoctogintilliard, thirty nine centunoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two centoctogintilliard, ninety eight centoctogintillion, two hundred eighty centnovemseptuagintilliard, three hundred seventeen centnovemseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty eight centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty two centoctoseptuagintillion, sixty one centseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty five centseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centsexseptuagintillion, six hundred forty three centquinseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty eight centquinseptuagintillion, four hundred three centquattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty seven centtreseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety centdoseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty four centdoseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty three centunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centunseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety two centseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven centseptuagintillion, four hundred seventy two centnovemsexagintilliard, two hundred thirty one centnovemsexagintillion, two hundred nineteen centoctosexagintilliard, thirty two centoctosexagintillion, three hundred eighty five centseptensexagintilliard, two hundred eighty one centseptensexagintillion, thirty four centsexsexagintilliard, ninety one centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred six centquinsexagintillion, six hundred eighteen centquattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred forty seven centquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred forty centtresexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty seven centtresexagintillion, two hundred sixty five centdosexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four centdosexagintillion, two hundred eighty four centunsexagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three centunsexagintillion, three hundred four centsexagintilliard, four hundred seventy four centsexagintillion, eight hundred sixty one centnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty four centnovemquinquagintillion, nine hundred forty two centoctoquinquagintilliard, seventy six centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety nine centseptenquinquagintilliard, forty one centseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine centsexquinquagintilliard, four hundred forty seven centsexquinquagintillion, one hundred sixty five centquinquinquagintilliard, eight hundred thirty eight centquinquinquagintillion, two hundred eighty one centquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred ten centtrequinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred thirty one centdoquinquagintilliard, two hundred six centdoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety centunquinquagintilliard, five hundred one centunquinquagintillion, nine hundred fourteen centquinquagintilliard, five hundred twenty seven centquinquagintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemquadragintilliard, two hundred eighty seven centnovemquadragintillion, three hundred seventy centoctoquadragintilliard, three hundred thirty nine centoctoquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy four centseptenquadragintilliard, seven hundred seven centseptenquadragintillion, two hundred six centsexquadragintilliard, sixteen centsexquadragintillion, eight hundred eighty two centquinquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty two centquinquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty seven centquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred four centquattuorquadragintillion, two hundred seventy centtrequadragintilliard, one hundred seventy centtrequadragintillion, three hundred twenty two centdoquadragintilliard, six hundred six centdoquadragintillion, seven hundred twenty seven centunquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty centunquadragintillion, three hundred forty three centquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy nine centquadragintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemtrigintilliard, four hundred twenty five centnovemtrigintillion, seven hundred thirty centoctotrigintilliard, ninety one centoctotrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred thirteen centseptentrigintillion, seventy seven centsextrigintilliard, seven hundred nineteen centsextrigintillion, three hundred twenty two centquintrigintilliard, four hundred fifty five centquintrigintillion, three hundred ninety four centquattuortrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three centquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred sixty centtretrigintilliard, six hundred six centtretrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centdotrigintilliard, two hundred fourteen centdotrigintillion, three hundred twenty six centuntrigintilliard, six hundred three centuntrigintillion, one hundred fifty six centtrigintilliard, one hundred forty one centtrigintillion, four hundred ninety centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred forty centnovemvigintillion, five hundred fifty seven centoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety eight centoctovigintillion, fifty five centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred sixty six centseptenvigintillion, two hundred sixty three centsexvigintilliard, forty four centsexvigintillion, four hundred forty seven centquinvigintilliard, five hundred eighty three centquinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty six centquattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred eleven centquattuorvigintillion, five hundred sixteen centtrevigintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrevigintillion, one hundred eighty one centdovigintilliard, one hundred ninety three centdovigintillion, four hundred forty two centunvigintilliard, two hundred thirty six centunvigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine centvigintilliard, four hundred twenty four centvigintillion, one hundred fifty one centnovemdecilliard, eight hundred forty three centnovemdecillion, seven hundred ninety five centoctodecilliard, three hundred eighty nine centoctodecillion, three hundred thirty five centseptendecilliard, seven hundred sixty five centseptendecillion, four hundred thirty two centsexdecilliard, one hundred twenty nine centsexdecillion, nine hundred forty four centquindecilliard, fifty four centquindecillion, eight hundred fifty five centquattuordecilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuordecillion, one hundred fifty five centtredecilliard, eight hundred fifty nine centtredecillion, two hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, four hundred twenty four centdodecillion, five hundred sixty one centundecilliard, eight hundred twenty five centundecillion, one hundred forty six centdecilliard, eight hundred thirteen centdecillion, seven hundred fourteen centnovemtilliard, seven hundred twenty centnovemtillion, six hundred six centoctotilliard, two hundred eighty seven centoctotillion, seven hundred eighty one centseptentilliard, twenty one centseptentillion, two hundred forty centsextilliard, nine hundred twenty three centsextillion, seven hundred eight centquintilliard, twenty one centquintillion, four hundred ninety two centquattuortilliard, two hundred ninety eight centquattuortillion, three hundred forty nine centtretilliard, six hundred thirty five centtretillion, one hundred seventy nine centdotilliard, five hundred twenty seven centdotillion, two hundred seventy centuntilliard, three hundred two centuntillion, nine hundred sixty two centilliard, nine hundred seventy centillion, one hundred fifty six novemnonagintilliard, nine hundred twenty seven novemnonagintillion, six hundred eighty six octononagintilliard, five hundred eleven octononagintillion, six hundred thirty five septennonagintilliard, fifty septennonagintillion, eighty sexnonagintilliard, four hundred seven sexnonagintillion, two hundred eighty two quinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy four quinnonagintillion, two hundred fifty two quattuornonagintilliard, three hundred sixty two quattuornonagintillion, six hundred forty four trenonagintilliard, six hundred ninety five trenonagintillion, seven hundred ten dononagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine dononagintillion, seven hundred sixty eight unnonagintilliard, eight hundred sixty six unnonagintillion, one hundred thirty seven nonagintilliard, three hundred two nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty nine novemoctogintilliard, three hundred thirteen novemoctogintillion, six hundred nine octooctogintilliard, six hundred seventy four octooctogintillion, three hundred eighty two septenoctogintilliard, seven hundred nineteen septenoctogintillion, seventeen sexoctogintilliard, three hundred eighty five sexoctogintillion, five hundred eight quinoctogintilliard, four hundred eighty four quinoctogintillion, six hundred sixty three quattuoroctogintilliard, three hundred seventy three quattuoroctogintillion, four hundred seventy six treoctogintilliard, one hundred twenty treoctogintillion, eight hundred forty three dooctogintilliard, five hundred sixty seven dooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty three unoctogintilliard, sixty five unoctogintillion, fifty nine octogintilliard, five hundred fifty eight octogintillion, seventy two novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty five novemseptuagintillion, one hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty seven octoseptuagintillion, five hundred forty four septenseptuagintilliard, two hundred forty septenseptuagintillion, eight hundred seven sexseptuagintilliard, three hundred fifty sexseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty seven quinseptuagintilliard, eighty two quinseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven quattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred thirty three quattuorseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy nine treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight treseptuagintillion, eight hundred seventy four doseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty three unseptuagintilliard, five hundred eighty four unseptuagintillion, five hundred twenty three septuagintilliard, ninety five septuagintillion, six hundred thirty eight novemsexagintilliard, nine hundred ninety six novemsexagintillion, one hundred twenty octosexagintilliard, six hundred sixteen octosexagintillion, three hundred eighteen septensexagintilliard, six hundred thirty four septensexagintillion, three hundred ninety one sexsexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven sexsexagintillion, one hundred twelve quinsexagintilliard, eighty six quinsexagintillion, four hundred sixty four quattuorsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty four quattuorsexagintillion, six hundred forty nine tresexagintilliard, four hundred seventy tresexagintillion, nine hundred sixty three dosexagintilliard, two hundred thirty dosexagintillion, seventy two unsexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine unsexagintillion, two hundred sexagintilliard, nine hundred twelve sexagintillion, five hundred eighty six novemquinquagintilliard, one hundred forty seven novemquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty seven octoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred ninety nine octoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two septenquinquagintilliard, four hundred ninety six septenquinquagintillion, seven hundred nine sexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two sexquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty nine quinquinquagintilliard, five hundred three quinquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty five quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred twenty four trequinquagintilliard, four hundred sixteen trequinquagintillion, two hundred two doquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven doquinquagintillion, seven hundred twenty unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty one unquinquagintillion, two hundred forty eight quinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty three quinquagintillion, five hundred ninety two novemquadragintilliard, two hundred two novemquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty eight octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty three octoquadragintillion, three hundred eleven septenquadragintilliard, one hundred forty septenquadragintillion, eight hundred thirty three sexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty three sexquadragintillion, three hundred two quinquadragintilliard, four hundred thirty three quinquadragintillion, nine hundred seventeen quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quattuorquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy six trequadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety trequadragintillion, three hundred eleven doquadragintilliard, four hundred twenty five doquadragintillion, eight hundred forty three unquadragintilliard, six hundred nineteen unquadragintillion, three hundred fifty quadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty six quadragintillion, seven hundred fifty four novemtrigintilliard, four hundred eighty three novemtrigintillion, eight hundred eleven octotrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four octotrigintillion, four hundred eight septentrigintilliard, eight hundred twelve septentrigintillion, seven hundred sixty three sextrigintilliard, three hundred eighty eight sextrigintillion, eighty four quintrigintilliard, two hundred four quintrigintillion, four hundred fifty one quattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred four quattuortrigintillion, nine hundred twelve tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty four tretrigintillion, three hundred eighty three dotrigintilliard, eight hundred eighty four dotrigintillion, one hundred eighty untrigintilliard, eight hundred untrigintillion, nine hundred forty five trigintilliard, two hundred seventy five trigintillion, six hundred twenty six novemvigintilliard, six hundred sixty eight novemvigintillion, fifty seven octovigintilliard, six hundred twenty eight octovigintillion, nine hundred fifty four septenvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three septenvigintillion, three hundred eighty four sexvigintilliard, six hundred forty one sexvigintillion, three hundred five quinvigintilliard, one hundred seven quinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty three quattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy three quattuorvigintillion, two hundred forty seven trevigintilliard, eighty two trevigintillion, four hundred ninety five dovigintilliard, eight hundred four dovigintillion, five hundred thirty three unvigintilliard, three hundred fifty five unvigintillion, seven hundred seventeen vigintilliard, four hundred eighty one vigintillion, nine hundred sixty five novemdecilliard, twenty five novemdecillion, seventy octodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen octodecillion, seven hundred thirty septendecilliard, four hundred sixty six septendecillion, four hundred twenty two sexdecilliard, eight hundred twenty six sexdecillion, one hundred five quindecilliard, six hundred ninety seven quindecillion, five hundred ten quattuordecilliard, five hundred sixty four quattuordecillion, two hundred eighty nine tredecilliard, seven hundred ninety eight tredecillion, nine hundred fifty one dodecilliard, one hundred eighty two dodecillion, one hundred ninety two undecilliard, eight hundred eighty five undecillion, nine hundred seventy six decilliard, three hundred fifty two decillion, two hundred twenty nine nonilliard, fifty three nonillion, eight hundred ninety eight octilliard, nine hundred forty eight octillion, seven hundred thirty seven septilliard, six hundred fourteen septillion, six hundred forty two sextilliard, one hundred thirty nine sextillion, nine hundred ten quintilliard, nine hundred eleven quintillion, five hundred thirty five quadrilliard, eight hundred sixty four quadrillion, five hundred five trilliard, eight hundred eighteen trillion, nine hundred ninety two billiard, six hundred ninety six billion, eight hundred twenty six milliard, two hundred twenty five million, seven hundred fifty four thousand, one hundred eleven

is mersenne prime #21

Re:GO TO BED by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:57 · Score: 0

That is the most intelligent comment I have ever seen posted at /.

Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 05:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think for once, the parody artists have gone too far and I have to line up on the side of the big business.

Even the /. poster admits that he got fooled into thinking the "response" from Dow was really from The Yes Men. That's over the line. It's one thing to be critical of Dow's actions, but it's another thing all together to confuse people into thinking you are Dow while making statements that Dow doesn't want make.

Yeah, Dow was a little underhanded to make the phone call after business hours, but The Thing could have blocked that trick simply by having a 24/7 answering service and an admin with a beeper. It's hard for them to try to claim that they aren't responsible for striking a website when they are told that what the site owners are doing is against the law, and I don't see why doing exactly what they were doing should be legal.

Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Fastolfe · 2003-01-01 05:55 · Score: 2

I agree.. the parody site and press release were a little too convincing. They either needed to go a little further with the site and the release so that it was obvious, or add a disclaimer.

While some (most?) of us could probably tell that it was a parody anyway (or at least be suspicious that it was), we're in the minority here. It needs to be obvious to the layperson.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Tom · 2003-01-01 06:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

The entire point of the Yes Man's actions has always been that it is confused with the real thing. They've done a couple things that make you really think about it, and they could only do it the way they did.

If corporations have free speech, why can't the Yes Men? Honestly, what's the worse crime - poisoning a couple thousand people, or impersonating someone who isn't even a person?

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-01 06:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

There is a line between parody and fraud. It's obvious that the group in question went out of their way to make their site look as much like an official Dow site as possible in order to defame Dow Chemical. That's not parody. That's intentional misrepresentation.

Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want and damned be the consequences. It doesn't work that way.

Honestly, what's the worse crime - poisoning a couple thousand people, or impersonating someone who isn't even a person?

Ah, the classic "But they started it!" defense. That always works so well in the courts.

--

I write in my journal
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:35 · Score: 0

Possibly there should be two versions of the site, an American version with "THIS IS A PARODY" blinking across the screen, and with the references to DDT, to financial considerations outweighing taking responsibility for a disaster in which thousands die because of financial considerations etc. underlined, and an international verion for countries not populated by drooling imbeciles.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by rking · 2003-01-01 06:51 · Score: 2

Agreed, they even put the kind of totally outrageous statements that only a corporation run by people with no sense of morality could make. How could anyone be expected to distinguish this from the real Dow Chemical?
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 06:55 · Score: 2

Have you ever seen "just kidding" notices on the Onion? Goddamn, but a lot of people get fooled by the Onion. I've seen articles about how the mainstream press picks up on it every now and then. So, since the Onion goes out of its way to make its articles look real (hint: that's why they're funny), the Onion should be sued?

If you want the courts to step in here based on the "some people will be fooled" line, that is a very slippery slope.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by MrHanky · 2003-01-01 06:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

There is a line between parody and fraud. It's obvious that the group in question went out of their way to make their site look as much like an official Dow site as possible in order to defame Dow Chemical. That's not parody. That's intentional misrepresentation.
It might be argued that Dow are misrepresenting themselves, and that The Yes-Men are helping Dow to express more truthfully what they stand for. Not that this matters at all. All these pranks are meant to last for some time, then get a lot of attention as the corporation sends their army of lawyers, then closed down. But some still work, like gatt.org, a parody of wto.org. They are so alike that I almost don't see the difference myself. This one's been up for more than a year.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Tom · 2003-01-01 08:01 · Score: 2

Ah, the classic "But they started it!" defense. That always works so well in the courts.

Nope, you read that wrong. I don't care who did it first, what I care about is what is being done.

Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want and damned be the consequences. It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't? If it carries consequences, then it ain't free speech. If that were the definition of free speech, then hey, you have a lot of free speech in, say, china. You can say whatever you want. They might kill you for it, but that's just the consequences, so it's still free speech, right?
Is that how you want it to work?

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by dipipanone · 2003-01-01 08:11 · Score: 1

What I like best about these sort of scams is that nobody would ever have even *heard* of this lame-ass hippie parody website if the dumb arrogant fucks at Dow hadn't felt so affronted that they had to attempt to censor it.

Haven't these captains of industry ever heard the old maxim about how the internet interprets censorship as damage and what happens then?
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by EvanED · 2003-01-01 08:18 · Score: 2

Then again, the Onion doesn't go around emailing journalists saying that they are a real news site. The Yes Men emailed journalists saying they represented Dow and were issuing a press release.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by EvanED · 2003-01-01 08:27 · Score: 2

"It doesn't? If it carries consequences, then it ain't free speech. If that were the definition of free speech, then hey, you have a lot of free speech in, say, china. You can say whatever you want. They might kill you for it, but that's just the consequences, so it's still free speech, right?
Is that how you want it to work?"

What the parent means is that you do not have the right to commit slander, libel, etc. Let's think of what absolute free speech means:

-no perjury laws (or you wouldn't have free speech on the bench)

-you can incite illegal actions--such as telling someone to kill someone--without reproach

-you can shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre, probably leading to injuries an property damage and certainly leading to lost revenue for the theatre owner, and not be responsible even if it is just a prank

This is not what the founding fathers and other governmental people intended when they wrote ratified the first amendment. They were trying to protect against censoring speech because of political messages. While parodies are of course protected, they cease to be protected when they cross the line to fradulent misrepresentation, and the Yes Men arguably did with their parody and certainly did when they sent links to journalists claiming that they represent Dow and were issuing a press release.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 08:33 · Score: 2

If corporations have free speech, why can't the Yes Men? Honestly, what's the worse crime - poisoning a couple thousand people, or impersonating someone who isn't even a person?

Clearly the poisoning is worse... but two wrongs never make a right.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by hansroy · 2003-01-01 10:05 · Score: 1

The first couple lines are convincing, but then its fairly easy to tell its humor.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by hansroy · 2003-01-01 10:07 · Score: 1

The Yes Men are so good that they've even been mistakenly hired as real business speakers. One of them pretended to be from the WTO and at the end of his speech, inflated a 3 foot golden phallus from his zip-off suit, which he called an employee motivator.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by nackrm · 2003-01-01 12:12 · Score: 1

good one.. mix up the links for gatt and wto... almost had me fooled...

--

Be a man! View at -1
acm.cs.uwec.edu
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by localman · 2003-01-01 14:55 · Score: 2

Interesting. I wonder how the killing and maiming of large groups of people, then sueing them further into poverty can be taken on the same level as libel.

The people killed, maimed, and sued were real living breathing people. The victim of libel is a corporation - a piece of paper. In this case I would say a polite "puh-leez" to any concerns from the guilty corp, and be quite sympathetic to the illegal but well intentioned actions against them.

Again: on one side you've got ongoing massive injury and death of real people that has gone unresolved, and on the other side you've got a corporation that was badmouthed.

Cheers.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by mgblst · 2003-01-01 15:09 · Score: 2

Yeah, I side with Dow as well, I mean, sure they killed hundreds of people and poisoined the land around their plant, and the effects of the tragedy are still having effects 18 years later, but someone pretended to be them, and that is just not on.

You do realise you sound like a complete dickhead, don't you?
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 15:16 · Score: 2

As I posted elsewhere, two wrongs still don't make a right.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by localman · 2003-01-01 17:36 · Score: 2

Sure, in general two wrongs don't make a right, but the order of magnitude of the wrongs must be considered, don't you think? As well as the greater good. Would you apply the same logic to police gunning down an active killer?

In this case we're talking about wrong#1: mass killing & continued damage vs. wrong#2: possible libel. I'm sorry, but those wrongs are on different planes. One is fundamental and the other is incendental to our social norms.

Basically what has happened here is that it is illegal to point out that a company is killing people. Think about that: the law is serving to undermine itself. In cases like this (any case of law vs. law) two wrongs will have to happen and something has to give.

So some people have decided to break the law to call attention to this injustice. It reminds me of Rosa Parks breaking the law... was that a case of "two wrongs don't make a right" as well?

Please - when issues are this serious don't resort to trite answers like that.

Cheers.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Catamaran · 2003-01-01 18:26 · Score: 1

Well said.

--
Test 1 2 3 4
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Tom · 2003-01-02 01:29 · Score: 2

I'm well aware of the points you make.

However, note that Dow has not (yet?) tried to sue the Yes Men. What they did do was shut them up. I don't mind if they drag them into a court and try to get damages. However, the Yes Men do have a right to say whatever they want to say, unless a court decides that they can't.

The entire DMCA is a 1st Amendment violation, because it allows certain entities (copyright holders) to bar someone elses speech without a court trial.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 01:51 · Score: 2

So, since the Onion goes out of its way to make its articles look real (hint: that's why they're funny), the Onion should be sued?

If The Onion called their site The New York Times and went to great lengths to make their site look exactly like the Times's site, even going so far as to using special software to mirror the Times's site in real time... then yeah, they should sure as hell get sued. The issue here is that these morons-- yes, morons-- intentionally falsely represented themselves to be Dow Chemical. Not a parody of Dow Chemical, or a site critical of Dow Chemical, but rather Dow Chemical itself. That's against the rules.

--

I write in my journal
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 02:16 · Score: 2

However, the Yes Men do have a right to say whatever they want to say, unless a court decides that they can't.

Two things. First, no, they don't. As we've been repeating over and over in this discussion, there are lots of types of speech that are not lawful. Intentionally misrepresenting yourself to be something or someone that you are not for the purpose of defaming a third party is not lawful. They don't have the right to do that under any circumstance.

Second, even if they did have a right to say what they said, nobody shut them up. What happened in this case is that Dow called on Verio to exercise their AUP to pull Thing.net's connection. Verio agreed that that was the right thing to do. Nobody went to Yes Men or Thing.net and said, "You can't say that." Rather, Verio went to them and said, "You can't say that using our connection because it's against our clearly defined AUP." There's nothing stopping any of these guys from getting their message out through another medium, until such time as Dow sues them for every last dime they have. Speech-- free or otherwise-- has not been impacted here at all.

The entire DMCA is a 1st Amendment violation because it allows certain entities (copyright holders) to bar someone elses speech without a court trial.

By that reasoning, libel laws are violations of the 1st amendment, because threatening a newspaper with a libel action can be enough to convince them to pull a reporter's story without a court trial. Your reasoning just doesn't hold up. Trademark and copyright violations are not lawful, even under the guise of free speech. The DMCA (now Title 17) provided remedies for people who are injured by a trademark or copyright violation. That's all.

--

I write in my journal
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Tom · 2003-01-02 06:51 · Score: 2

here are lots of types of speech that are not lawful.

And here I was thinking that it's the job of the courts to decide what's lawful and what not.

By that reasoning, libel laws are violations of the 1st amendment,

There is a fine difference here. The libel laws have, over time, been worked out so that they can be applied without what is called the "chilling effect". The DMCA has not.

Verio did not have much of a choice in this matter. I work for an ISP, and I've been involved in our own DMCA discussions. The law is pretty clear that there is a definite procedure for the ISP to follow, and there is very little choice involved. You get a takedown notice, you take the site down. If your lawyers tell you anything else, please give me their number so I can put them in touch with our legal eagles (whom I'd love to convince otherwise).

There is a "counter notification" option in the DMCA. However, from reading it my personal verdict is that it's a farce.

There is a huge difference between DMCA takedown notices and harsh letters from a lawyer. The letter essentially says "if you do this, we will sue you". You still have a choice and can weigh your chances. A DMCA takedown notice requires you to do something, and with a deadline. You can ignore the lawyers letter. You can't ignore a DMCA takedown notice.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-02 07:04 · Score: 2

And here I was thinking that it's the job of the courts to decide what's lawful and what not.

Man, you need to do some remedial reading on how the US government works. The legislature decides what is and what is not lawful. They have, for example, decided that trademark infringement is against the law. The court, at the first level anyway, is only concerned with the facts of a case. The court will decide if what a person does is (again, for example) trademark infringement. The court will not express an opinion as to whether or not trademark infringement is against the law.

To sum up: the legislature decides what the laws are, and the court decides whether a law has been broken based on the facts of the case. Okay?

Verio did not have much of a choice in this matter.

Of course not. What these guys were doing was clearly against Verio's AUP. Verio should not have had any choice in the matter. If they had, it would have made the whole AUP meaningless.

--

I write in my journal
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by LostCluster · 2003-01-02 08:54 · Score: 2

Basically what has happened here is that it is illegal to point out that a company is killing people.

No, it's illegal to pretend represent a company you're not a part of, even if that company is one that is killing people.

The Yes Men could have written a site as themselves in which they talk about what Dow has done. However, since Dow's misdeads pale in comparision to the misdeads of other wrongdoers (such as the government of Iraq for one example) so that it'd be hard for them to get media attention when they have to compete on the same playing field as those stories.

Instead, they're trying to jump to the top by impersonating the website of Dow, which breaks several copyright and trademark laws in the process. Yeah, that gets them attention, but it does so by doing something illegal.

By the way, Rosa Parks went to jail for a time for doing what she did. If you're going to do civil disobedience, paying for your crime is part of the deal.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by localman · 2003-01-02 18:01 · Score: 2

No, it's illegal to pretend represent a company you're not a part of, even if that company is one that is killing people.

Yes, that too. I was referring to the DMCA.

In any case, I never questioned the legality of the moves. I agree with you: they were unquestionably illegal. However I was discussing the morality of it - because the original post indicated that you found yourself morally aligned with Dow: "I have to line up on the side of the big business."

I was simply surprised that anyone would read this story of suffering and find themselves sympathetic with Dow. I can't see how anyone sane could feel that way. I am thankful these people broke the law to get this information to me.

Sorry.
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Tom · 2003-01-02 21:44 · Score: 2

I correct myself: The legislature writes the laws. However, in a civilized country, only a court can decide whether or not a specific event was against the law or not. That's the point: That you have the right to be heard by a court. No such luck with the DMCA.

As for Verio: You missed the point by a mile. The AUP are something that Verio has written and that Verio can choose to enforce or not. Lots of choice there, and necessarily so. As I said, I work for an ISP. Our AUPs prohibit malicious activity. Part of my job is to decide which kind of attacks, hacking attempts and script-kiddie behaviour falls intot that category and which not. Lots of choice there.
With a DMCA takedown notice, there is no such choice. I've been through the dance with our legal department. If you're an ISP in the USA, then the procedure is crystal clear and your choice is essentially reduced to whether you yank the site before or after lunch break.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Do not pass go, do not collect $200 by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · 2003-01-03 03:07 · Score: 2

However, in a civilized country, only a court can decide whether or not a specific event was against the law or not.

Not exactly. In order to be valid, a law has to be specific. The law says which acts are prohibited. The purpose of a criminal trial is to determine facts: whether an event transpired as the prosecution alleges, or as the defense alleges.

For example, let's say somebody ends up dead. Depending on the circumstances, the person responsible for the killing may or may not be a criminal. If the killer acted in self-defense, for example, then no crime was committed. For the different classes of criminal homicide, the law defines various criteria. If the killer did this, then the crime is first-degree murder. If the killer did that, then the crime is first-degree manslaughter. If the killer did the other thing, then the crime is criminally negligent homicide. And so on.

The purpose of the trial will be to ascertain the facts of the case. The prosecution will say (for example) that the defendant killed the victim because he was sleeping with the defendant's wife. The defense will say that he defendant killed the victim in self defense because the defendant thought the victim was an intruder. (Or maybe they'll say that the defendant didn't do it at all. Whatever.)

The jury, in the case of a jury trial, is responsible for deciding the facts. Did the defendant kill the victim or not? If so, did he intend to kill the victim? If so, did he plan the crime in advance? And so on.

So the courts do not decide if a specific event was against the law; the law decides that in advance. The courts merely decide what happened, and apply the law accordingly.

The AUP are something that Verio has written and that Verio can choose to enforce or not.

Then what's the point of having an AUP? You can't choose whether or not to enforce a policy; that's arbitrary and unfair to your customers. You have to enforce a policy uniformly. Thing.net was violating Verio's AUP. Dow informed Verio of that, and so Verio had to pull the plug. Not because of the DMCA. Because of their own policy.

Trying to make this about the DMCA is really stretching it. The complaint cited the DMCA, which simply says that ISP's can be liable in copyright infringement instances if they receive notice of an infringement and do not act on it. But the complaint also cited the Anti-Cybersquatting Consumer Protection Act and the Lanham Act. This isn't a DMCA case any more than it's a Lanham Act case.

The important point is that Thing.net was violating Verio's AUP. Verio had no choice at all, and they did the right thing.

--

I write in my journal

Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by dougmc · 2003-01-01 05:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Corporate Freedom of Speech only shows up 42 times in google (web) and only 8 times in google groups.

Yet according to Dow's press release, Corporate Freedom of Speech is one of our most precious Freedoms.

Obviously it's one of those freedoms that nobody except Dow talks about. (In fact, many of the google links are about Dow.)

Of course, the troubling part is that obviously it's more important than `generic' Freedom of Speech. At least according to Dow.

Their press release alone reads like a parody. I really hope it is. And if it's not, I hope they get spanked hard for it.

Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:53 · Score: 0

OMG. You don't see that it is a parody ?

This means that in 10 years it could be real, you would probably not protest....
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by delfstrom · 2003-01-01 05:56 · Score: 1

The entire dowethics.com website is a parody. The submitter of the slashdot story itself says that he got taken in by it. Obviously you did, too.
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by dougmc · 2003-01-01 06:07 · Score: 2

Obviously you did, too.
Obviously I did.
Had I just found it by itself, I'd have attributed it to parody (I did mention that it reads like a parody, after all), but the /. story *said* it was from Dow --
What really sent me into orbit was Dow's response to all of this
and I took that at it's word. Perhaps I should have made a New Years Resolution to not take people I don't know at their word, especially when it just looks wrong.
Which makes it a very good parody indeed -- not just from The Yes Men, but also from the user `michael' on Slashdot. He told us that this was from Dow, and since we're all ready (me too) to believe that the mighty Corporation is out to get us, I believed him, even though it was somewhat absurd.
Let's hope that Dow doesn't get *too* sue-happy over this -- now they could go after michael too.
I don't see where the DMCA comes into play here, but there's still plenty of other things that Dow could use to make The Yes Men and michael's life unpleasant.
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:16 · Score: 0

Dude, you really need to work on those reading comprehension skills.
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by Doppleganger · 2003-01-01 06:18 · Score: 2

What really sent me into orbit was Dow's response to all of this. While writing this submission I noticed that I have become a victim of The Yes Men and "Dow's" response is actually one of their parodies!

Perhaps you should have made a New Year's Resolution to raise your reading comprehension.

Especially since you somehow think michael told you anything was from Dow, when the Slashdot article clearly states that tres3 was the writer... the only portion not quoted from tres3 is the last seven words: "We did an earlier story on this."
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by dougmc · 2003-01-01 06:29 · Score: 2

Ok then ...
Posted by michael on Wednesday January 01, @11:31AM
from the no-sense-of-humor dept.
tres3 writes "I stumbled across this
(that didn't quite quote correctly. Oh well.)
I went after the bold stuff. A simple enough mistake. Still, I'd suggest changing the format ... what's more important -- that michael posted this, or tres3 actually wrote it?
My reading comprehension is fine, when I apply it properly. A better resolution would be to remember to double (and triple) check everything before I make silly mistakes in public. I've made a few so far, and the year is only a few hours old :)
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:49 · Score: 0

A corporation is not a natural person. It is a legal fiction. A corporation should have none of the rights extended to real people.

And this was true until 1886 when the US Supreme Court, using the fairly recently enacted 14th Amendment to the Constitution (the amendment that says any person is equal to any other person) decided for no apparent reason that a corporation is a person, too. This decision (Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company [118 U.S. 394 (1886)]) had no basis in precedent and, in fact, ran counter to previous rulings by the Court.

Since that time corporations have gained the same rights as the rest of us but without the responsibilities. Corporations can commit crimes, but never go to jail (maybe an officer or two, but never the corporation). Corporations are immortal and never even have to think about paying inheritance taxes. Corporations can earn large incomes but not pay taxes (they get to write off things real persons can't). Corporations can avoid or minimize state taxes by incorporating in certain states (e.g. Delaware) or by simply moving their place of incorporation offshore (e.g. Bermuda).

Would you like to be able to avoid taxes by simply erasing the place of birth on your birth certificate and changing it to Bermuda while retaining all the rights and privileges of US citizenship.

Me too.
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by Doppleganger · 2003-01-01 07:12 · Score: 2

Personally, I was clued in by the 'tres3 writes "I stumbled across this.."'

That's a fairly standard quotation format, attributing the quoted text to tres3. It's similiar to an article in a newspaper quoting things from a Associated Press article.. the newspaper writer didn't write the quoted bits.

'sides, your user number isn't all that far away from mine.. you should be used to the format around here by now! :)
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by zcat_NZ · 2003-01-01 13:16 · Score: 1

So what IS Dow's position on the original chemical spill? I couldn't find an official press release from them but clearly they don't want to take responsibility, and it's likely for much the same reasons that the 'dowethics' document says.

I don't think The Yes Men have misrepresented Dow Chemical's position at all. They've just expressed it a little more bluntly than Dow's lawyers are comfortable with..

--
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
Re:Corporate Freedom of Speech .... by sg_oneill · 2003-01-01 19:18 · Score: 2

Its a parody. dowethics.com is a yes-man site.

--
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.

But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by tizzyD · 2003-01-01 05:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

(If anyone says "who cares," when they dump the chemicals in your neighborhood and your kid is born with flippers, realize that the great wheel has come full cirle. You get back what you deserve!)

What gets me here is that, get this, from Dow's own web site:

The provider, Verio, graciously complied with our letter citing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Not only did they shut down Dow-Chemical.com, but as a good corporate citizen, they agreed to shut down an entire network (Thing.net) of websites many of which, while unrelated to dow-chemical.com, appear to serve no commercial purpose, being dedicated to the unproductive analysis and critique of society and corporate behaviour.

Yep, that's right, sports fans. If you serve no commercial purpose, you have no right to exist. Such corporate arrogance is horrid. In true W-esque fashion, unless you consume, you're worthless. What do these guys want? Web sites for companies only? What a yawn that would be. Remember the article a while back, noting that the web has been growing in capabilities and innovation not by big corporate bozo's but by, yep, web porn. We may not like it, but those sleazy guys are the ones Dow can sell fiber in the first place!

Lastly, I am so pleased to have Dow no inform me as to the unproductive analysis and critique that Thing.net was providing. Before, I considered it merely satire or commentary. Now I see what it truly was . . . a communist plot to keep Dow from cleaning our water and preserving our precious bodily fluids. Thanks Dow!

--
...tizzyd

Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:59 · Score: 0

that's from the parody web page you ...
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:03 · Score: 0

Hence the problem. People that don't pay attention get confused easily.
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by outsider007 · 2003-01-01 06:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

basically this whole story is a troll and people will be falling for it for the next 24 hours or so.

good times.

--
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by PNut_Head · 2003-01-01 06:15 · Score: 2, Informative

What gets me here is that, get this, from Dow's own web site:

Actually, that is not from 'Dow's own web site'. It's from a site that is set up to look almost exactly like one sponsored, maintained or supported by DOW. It's not. It's an example of parody gone too far. There doesn't even seem to be a disclaimer about the entire site being parody.

The original post does however mention that the submitter was fooled as you were. It seems you did a good job and RTFA, but should have spent a little more time to RTFP more carefully.

--
- "That don't make no sense!"
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by mat+catastrophe · 2003-01-01 06:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Um, no. The above quotations are from DOW Ethics.com, which is obviously one of the parody sites.

I say obviously, because I do not for one hot second think that anyone here can or should defend DOW Chemical in this matter. Yes, The Onion is an obvious parody, but not because of the disclaimers or the site design, but because of the content. And don't pull out your tired and elitist "Joe Average" arguments, because Joe Average is probably not surfing the DOW chemical websites anyway. Those sites are for investors and business types and if they aren't smart enough to tell when they are being had, well, fuck 'em.

These are very strange times we live in today, and strange times call for strange measures. Yes, the parody people took some extreme steps (ripping off corporate design, registering similar domain names) but that's what it might take to get attention. And it certainly did get some attention, now didn't it? How many of you would even be thinking about the policies and procedures of DOW chemicals today if it weren't for this story? Probably three of you. Certainly not me, I'm nursing a headache from lack of sleep.

--
sig not found
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 15:47 · Score: 2

Congratulations... you just hammered another nail into The Yes Men's coffin.

You just bought a statement that didn't come from Dow, but actually came from a parody site. You then turned around and reported it to the Slashdot audience as if it really was a position statement released by Dow.

This is exactly what Dow has a right to protect itself against... from forgery that is so convincing it suckered you into thinking it was authentic. You now have a further damaged opinion of Dow Chemical. (Not that they're squeaky clean to begin with, but they're entitled to not have to get blamed for things other people claiming to be them do.)

You've just proven why The Yes Men deserve to be in jail. They're nothing more than con men, just instead of taking money, they're taking away the credibility of companies they don't like.
Re:But, did you know the net is only for commerce? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 16:17 · Score: 0

you are dummmmmbbbbbb if you didn't realize that is a parody.

SHEEP COUNT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 05:58 · Score: -1, Offtopic

four whatthefucktillion, seven hundred eighty two quadringentquinoctogintilliard, two hundred two quadringentquinoctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight quadringentquattuoroctogintilliard, fifty four quadringentquattuoroctogintillion, six hundred twelve quadringenttreoctogintilliard, twenty nine quadringenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty eight quadringentdooctogintilliard, three hundred ninety two quadringentdooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty six quadringentunoctogintilliard, six hundred quadringentunoctogintillion, fifty nine quadringentoctogintilliard, ninety seven quadringentoctogintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy one quadringentnovemseptuagintillion, seven hundred twenty four quadringentoctoseptuagintilliard, twenty two quadringentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred sixty five quadringentseptenseptuagintilliard, eight quadringentseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred thirteen quadringentsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty five quadringentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred nine quadringentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred eighteen quadringentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy eight quadringentquattuorseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty quadringentquattuorseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty two quadringenttreseptuagintilliard, six hundred sixty two quadringenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy quadringentdoseptuagintilliard, two hundred seventy eight quadringentdoseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty seven quadringentunseptuagintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentunseptuagintillion, one hundred twelve quadringentseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seven quadringentseptuagintillion, eight hundred ninety four quadringentnovemsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty six quadringentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four quadringentoctosexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty quadringentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred eighty one quadringentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four quadringentseptensexagintillion, two hundred fifty six quadringentsexsexagintilliard, three hundred nineteen quadringentsexsexagintillion, three hundred six quadringentquinsexagintilliard, five hundred eighty five quadringentquinsexagintillion, fifty two quadringentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred seventy six quadringentquattuorsexagintillion, eight hundred thirty four quadringenttresexagintilliard, eighty seven quadringenttresexagintillion, four hundred eighty quadringentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four quadringentdosexagintillion, four hundred twenty nine quadringentunsexagintilliard, four hundred thirty three quadringentunsexagintillion, two hundred sixty four quadringentsexagintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quadringentsexagintillion, four hundred twenty five quadringentnovemquinquagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three quadringentnovemquinquagintillion, two hundred forty seven quadringentoctoquinquagintilliard, six hundred twenty three quadringentoctoquinquagintillion, six hundred eighty eight quadringentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred thirty one quadringentseptenquinquagintillion, twenty one quadringentsexquinquagintilliard, six hundred thirty three quadringentsexquinquagintillion, two hundred eight quadringentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty four quadringentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred forty seven quadringentquattuorquinquagintilliard, three hundred fifty four quadringentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred five quadringenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred ninety nine quadringenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred forty three quadringentdoquinquagintilliard, three hundred forty one quadringentdoquinquagintillion, three hundred nine quadringentunquinquagintilliard, eight hundred twenty five quadringentunquinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty nine quadringentquinquagintilliard, thirteen quadringentquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty three quadringentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred six quadringentnovemquadragintillion, one hundred eighty seven quadringentoctoquadragintilliard, one hundred nine quadringentoctoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty one quadringentseptenquadragintilliard, forty three quadringentseptenquadragintillion, one hundred forty eight quadringentsexquadragintilliard, six hundred eighty quadringentsexquadragintillion, eight hundred thirteen quadringentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy eight quadringentquinquadragintillion, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty quadringentquattuorquadragintillion, four hundred ninety six quadringenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred fifteen quadringenttrequadragintillion, six hundred one quadringentdoquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty three quadringentdoquadragintillion, two hundred eighty two quadringentunquadragintilliard, six hundred twenty four quadringentunquadragintillion, four hundred fourteen quadringentquadragintilliard, forty quadringentquadragintillion, three hundred ninety eight quadringentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred forty three quadringentnovemtrigintillion, two hundred seven quadringentoctotrigintilliard, six hundred twenty two quadringentoctotrigintillion, thirty six quadringentseptentrigintilliard, two hundred seventy two quadringentseptentrigintillion, one hundred ninety quadringentsextrigintilliard, four hundred eight quadringentsextrigintillion, five hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintilliard, seven hundred ninety quadringentquintrigintillion, five hundred thirty seven quadringentquattuortrigintilliard, two hundred three quadringentquattuortrigintillion, four hundred seventy five quadringenttretrigintilliard, two hundred fifty six quadringenttretrigintillion, one hundred five quadringentdotrigintilliard, five hundred sixty four quadringentdotrigintillion, seventy one quadringentuntrigintilliard, five hundred seventy nine quadringentuntrigintillion, two hundred sixty three quadringenttrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty seven quadringenttrigintillion, eight hundred seventy five quadringentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred forty quadringentnovemvigintillion, nine hundred eighty five quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy three quadringentoctovigintillion, three hundred fifty six quadringentseptenvigintilliard, five hundred twenty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, six hundred fifty six quadringentsexvigintilliard, one hundred eight quadringentsexvigintillion, five hundred forty two quadringentquinvigintilliard, one hundred twenty eight quadringentquinvigintillion, five hundred seventy seven quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty one quadringentquattuorvigintillion, fifty seven quadringenttrevigintilliard, eight hundred seventy nine quadringenttrevigintillion, fifty two quadringentdovigintilliard, three hundred twenty eight quadringentdovigintillion, eight hundred sixty five quadringentunvigintilliard, thirty five quadringentunvigintillion, three hundred fifty five quadringentvigintilliard, eight hundred seventy three quadringentvigintillion, six hundred fifteen quadringentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy nine quadringentnovemdecillion, three hundred sixty three quadringentoctodecilliard, six hundred fifty five quadringentoctodecillion, eight hundred eighty nine quadringentseptendecilliard, nine hundred twenty five quadringentseptendecillion, seven hundred eleven quadringentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty quadringentquindecilliard, one hundred fifty three quadringentquindecillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringentquattuordecilliard, ninety one quadringentquattuordecillion, seven hundred fifty two quadringenttredecilliard, four hundred twenty two quadringenttredecillion, eight hundred forty three quadringentdodecilliard, forty six quadringentdodecillion, nine hundred eighteen quadringentundecilliard, eight hundred eleven quadringentundecillion, four hundred twenty seven quadringentdecilliard, four hundred quadringentdecillion, six hundred sixty two quadringentnovemtilliard, one hundred thirty five quadringentnovemtillion, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotilliard, three hundred three quadringentoctotillion, five hundred sixteen quadringentseptentilliard, eight hundred fifty three quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred three quadringentsextilliard, nine hundred seventy six quadringentsextillion, eight hundred twelve quadringentquintilliard, six hundred eighty six quadringentquintillion, three hundred eighty five quadringentquattuortilliard, seven hundred fifty quadringentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy six quadringenttretilliard, two hundred twenty seven quadringenttretillion, seven hundred eighty seven quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred forty nine quadringentdotillion, five hundred eighty quadringentuntilliard, five hundred eighty two quadringentuntillion, eighty one quadringentilliard, eight hundred thirty one quadringentillion, two hundred sixty one trecentnovemnonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five trecentnovemnonagintillion, seven hundred one trecentoctononagintilliard, three trecentoctononagintillion, four hundred ninety eight trecentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred six trecentseptennonagintillion, five hundred twelve trecentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentsexnonagintillion, eight hundred seventy two trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy seven trecentquinnonagintillion, two hundred thirty three trecentquattuornonagintilliard, four hundred eighty nine trecentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ten trecenttrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecenttrenonagintillion, four hundred sixty nine trecentdononagintilliard, three hundred seventy five trecentdononagintillion, six hundred eighty three trecentunnonagintilliard, thirty seven trecentunnonagintillion, thirty eight trecentnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy three trecentnonagintillion, nine hundred ninety nine trecentnovemoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy one trecentoctooctogintilliard, five hundred eighty five trecentoctooctogintillion, seven hundred eighty eight trecentseptenoctogintilliard, nine hundred five trecentseptenoctogintillion, six hundred thirty nine trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifteen trecentsexoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentquinoctogintilliard, six hundred thirteen trecentquinoctogintillion, four hundred five trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred ninety five trecentquattuoroctogintillion, seven hundred seven trecenttreoctogintilliard, one hundred eighty four trecenttreoctogintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentdooctogintilliard, one hundred fifty eight trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred nineteen trecentunoctogintilliard, two hundred eight trecentunoctogintillion, two hundred twenty three trecentoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty six trecentoctogintillion, four hundred forty two trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, fifty nine trecentnovemseptuagintillion, fourteen trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, five hundred ninety three trecentoctoseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven trecentseptenseptuagintillion, nine trecentsexseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty two trecentsexseptuagintillion, one hundred fifty three trecentquinseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two trecentquinseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy six trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, eight hundred fifty three trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred twenty three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy trecenttreseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty six trecentdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentdoseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy eight trecentunseptuagintilliard, eighty nine trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, six hundred twenty one trecentseptuagintillion, three hundred one trecentnovemsexagintilliard, one hundred sixty seven trecentnovemsexagintillion, eight hundred eleven trecentoctosexagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine trecentoctosexagintillion, one hundred sixty six trecentseptensexagintilliard, four hundred seven trecentseptensexagintillion, three hundred sixty one trecentsexsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentsexsexagintillion, six hundred six trecentquinsexagintilliard, six hundred ninety seven trecentquinsexagintillion, eight hundred eight trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred eighty six trecentquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty seven trecenttresexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty six trecenttresexagintillion, nine hundred fourteen trecentdosexagintilliard, six hundred seventy one trecentdosexagintillion, two hundred forty six trecentunsexagintilliard, seventy three trecentunsexagintillion, seven hundred twelve trecentsexagintilliard, nine hundred four trecentsexagintillion, two hundred trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred eighty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, four hundred eight trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred twenty three trecentoctoquinquagintillion, one hundred eighty six trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty seven trecentseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven trecentsexquinquagintillion, six hundred seventy five trecentquinquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety two trecentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety seven trecenttrequinquagintilliard, sixty six trecenttrequinquagintillion, nine hundred eighty trecentdoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven trecentdoquinquagintillion, four hundred six trecentunquinquagintilliard, fifty three trecentunquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty trecentquinquagintilliard, one hundred twenty two trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred fifty three trecentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty nine trecentnovemquadragintillion, thirty six trecentoctoquadragintilliard, nine hundred sixty five trecentoctoquadragintillion, four hundred ninety trecentseptenquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty four trecentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecentsexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty four trecentsexquadragintillion, six hundred forty nine trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven trecentquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty four trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety eight trecentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred seventy eight trecenttrequadragintilliard, five hundred three trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred fourteen trecentdoquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty five trecentdoquadragintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy five trecentunquadragintillion, five hundred four trecentquadragintilliard, five hundred one trecentquadragintillion, six hundred eighty six trecentnovemtrigintilliard, one hundred eighty seven trecentnovemtrigintillion, three hundred fifty four trecentoctotrigintilliard, eight hundred sixty six trecentoctotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty four trecentseptentrigintilliard, three hundred seventy four trecentseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two trecentsextrigintilliard, six hundred fourteen trecentsextrigintillion, one hundred twenty trecentquintrigintilliard, six hundred forty trecentquintrigintillion, seven hundred eighty two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred forty nine trecentquattuortrigintillion, six hundred twenty two trecenttretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty two trecenttretrigintillion, twenty seven trecentdotrigintilliard, seven hundred eighty eight trecentdotrigintillion, nine hundred sixty two trecentuntrigintilliard, one hundred thirty eight trecentuntrigintillion, six hundred two trecenttrigintilliard, six hundred sixty five trecenttrigintillion, nine hundred thirty three trecentnovemvigintilliard, one hundred forty seven trecentnovemvigintillion, six hundred eighty seven trecentoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety six trecentoctovigintillion, three hundred twenty two trecentseptenvigintilliard, eighty nine trecentseptenvigintillion, five hundred four trecentsexvigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight trecentsexvigintillion, seven hundred ninety one trecentquinvigintilliard, six hundred twenty four trecentquinvigintillion, six hundred fifty one trecentquattuorvigintilliard, five hundred nineteen trecentquattuorvigintillion, three hundred twelve trecenttrevigintilliard, three hundred twenty seven trecenttrevigintillion, eight hundred thirty one trecentdovigintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred fifty three trecentunvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecentunvigintillion, three hundred seventy seven trecentvigintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentvigintillion, five hundred twenty four trecentnovemdecilliard, six hundred seventy three trecentnovemdecillion, three hundred ninety five trecentoctodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen trecentoctodecillion, two hundred eighty one trecentseptendecilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentseptendecillion, six hundred sixty eight trecentsexdecilliard, five hundred seventy six trecentsexdecillion, three hundred eighty four trecentquindecilliard, nineteen trecentquindecillion, five hundred ninety trecentquattuordecilliard, seven hundred twenty trecentquattuordecillion, one hundred seventy nine trecenttredecilliard, four hundred thirteen trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty nine trecentdodecilliard, five hundred eighty two trecentdodecillion, nine hundred seventy trecentundecilliard, three hundred nineteen trecentundecillion, three hundred ninety three trecentdecilliard, eight hundred eighty four trecentdecillion, three hundred eighty eight trecentnovemtilliard, eight hundred ten trecentnovemtillion, four hundred ninety four trecentoctotilliard, five hundred forty six trecentoctotillion, forty trecentseptentilliard, three hundred forty two trecentseptentillion, eighty seven trecentsextilliard, five hundred thirty six trecentsextillion, five hundred sixty three trecentquintilliard, six hundred twenty eight trecentquintillion, three hundred thirty two trecentquattuortilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentquattuortillion, seventy three trecenttretilliard, one hundred eighty one trecenttretillion, six hundred fourteen trecentdotilliard, three hundred trecentdotillion, seven hundred twenty one trecentuntilliard, seven hundred sixty nine trecentuntillion, three hundred seventy one trecentilliard, four hundred twenty six trecentillion, two hundred thirty eight ducentnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventeen ducentnovemnonagintillion, five hundred forty ducentoctononagintilliard, five hundred twenty ducentoctononagintillion, eight hundred forty five ducentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred fourteen ducentseptennonagintillion, six hundred sixty five ducentsexnonagintilliard, three hundred thirteen ducentsexnonagintillion, three hundred one ducentquinnonagintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducentquinnonagintillion, five hundred fifty one ducentquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred sixty two ducentquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety one ducenttrenonagintilliard, eight hundred forty nine ducenttrenonagintillion, five hundred fifty eight ducentdononagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight ducentdononagintillion, four hundred ninety nine ducentunnonagintilliard, twenty five ducentunnonagintillion, three hundred forty eight ducentnonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty ducentnonagintillion, three hundred seventy six ducentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentnovemoctogintillion, four hundred seventy seven ducentoctooctogintilliard, seventy three ducentoctooctogintillion, nine hundred thirty ducentseptenoctogintilliard, six hundred thirty four ducentseptenoctogintillion, four hundred thirty six ducentsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred forty ducentsexoctogintillion, eighty four ducentquinoctogintilliard, four hundred sixty eight ducentquinoctogintillion, two hundred fifty five ducentquattuoroctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty seven ducentquattuoroctogintillion, four hundred forty three ducenttreoctogintilliard, four hundred fifty one ducenttreoctogintillion, six hundred ninety ducentdooctogintilliard, three hundred fifteen ducentdooctogintillion, nine hundred ninety nine ducentunoctogintilliard, three hundred forty nine ducentunoctogintillion, one hundred thirty seven ducentoctogintilliard, six hundred sixty four ducentoctogintillion, six hundred thirty eight ducentnovemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight ducentnovemseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy two ducentoctoseptuagintilliard, six hundred fourteen ducentoctoseptuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine ducentseptenseptuagintilliard, fifteen ducentseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred four ducentsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred six ducentsexseptuagintillion, five hundred forty seven ducentquinseptuagintilliard, eight hundred nineteen ducentquinseptuagintillion, fifty six ducentquattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty seven ducentquattuorseptuagintillion, one hundred seventy one ducenttreseptuagintilliard, two hundred twenty four ducenttreseptuagintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentdoseptuagintilliard, seventy ducentdoseptuagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine ducentunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixteen ducentunseptuagintillion, three hundred ducentseptuagintilliard, nine hundred fifty three ducentseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five ducentnovemsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty three ducentnovemsexagintillion, four hundred forty one ducentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred seven ducentoctosexagintillion, nine hundred twenty ducentseptensexagintilliard, five hundred one ducentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred sixty three ducentsexsexagintilliard, five hundred thirty two ducentsexsexagintillion, two hundred thirty four ducentquinsexagintilliard, four hundred sixty six ducentquinsexagintillion, five hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred ninety five ducenttresexagintilliard, seven hundred seventy four ducenttresexagintillion, three hundred thirty one ducentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred eighty five ducentdosexagintillion, forty four ducentunsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight ducentunsexagintillion, two hundred fifty ducentsexagintilliard, one hundred forty eight ducentsexagintillion, six hundred sixty three ducentnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred sixty seven ducentnovemquinquagintillion, three hundred seventy two ducentoctoquinquagintilliard, one hundred thirty ducentoctoquinquagintillion, three hundred ninety two ducentseptenquinquagintilliard, ninety nine ducentseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety four ducentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two ducentsexquinquagintillion, one hundred forty five ducentquinquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety ducentquinquinquagintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquattuorquinquagintilliard, two hundred thirty two ducentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy eight ducenttrequinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventy two ducenttrequinquagintillion, four hundred eighty six ducentdoquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty ducentdoquinquagintillion, five hundred thirteen ducentunquinquagintilliard, ten ducentunquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen ducentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine ducentquinquagintillion, nine hundred two ducentnovemquadragintilliard, eight hundred ninety two ducentnovemquadragintillion, five hundred eighteen ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seven hundred nineteen ducentoctoquadragintillion, two hundred fifty ducentseptenquadragintilliard, sixty six ducentseptenquadragintillion, nine hundred forty seven ducentsexquadragintilliard, two hundred fifteen ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred six ducentquinquadragintilliard, five hundred thirty six ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred sixteen ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, two hundred forty eight ducentquattuorquadragintillion, six hundred ninety six ducenttrequadragintilliard, two hundred forty ducenttrequadragintillion, five hundred sixty nine ducentdoquadragintilliard, two hundred fifty six ducentdoquadragintillion, eight hundred sixty five ducentunquadragintilliard, five hundred fifty four ducentunquadragintillion, two hundred ninety six ducentquadragintilliard, two hundred twenty one ducentquadragintillion, five hundred fifty two ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two hundred eleven ducentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred sixty ducentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred twenty seven ducentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred seventy eight ducentseptentrigintilliard, six hundred sixty two ducentseptentrigintillion, five hundred forty five ducentsextrigintilliard, nine hundred thirty six ducentsextrigintillion, nine hundred ninety eight ducentquintrigintilliard, eight hundred one ducentquintrigintillion, seventy ducentquattuortrigintilliard, one hundred eighty six ducentquattuortrigintillion, one hundred sixty two ducenttretrigintilliard, six hundred one ducenttretrigintillion, four hundred seventy six ducentdotrigintilliard, four hundred seventy four ducentdotrigintillion, two hundred ninety three ducentuntrigintilliard, four hundred fifty nine ducentuntrigintillion, eight hundred thirty ducenttrigintilliard, one hundred eighty three ducenttrigintillion, six hundred fifty one ducentnovemvigintilliard, two hundred seventy three ducentnovemvigintillion, three hundred sixty three ducentoctovigintilliard, four hundred sixty two ducentoctovigintillion, seven hundred thirty two ducentseptenvigintilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptenvigintillion, eight hundred eighty three ducentsexvigintilliard, sixty ducentsexvigintillion, seven hundred one ducentquinvigintilliard, four hundred ten ducentquinvigintillion, three hundred fifty nine ducentquattuorvigintilliard, two hundred fifty four ducentquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred twenty nine ducenttrevigintilliard, one hundred forty nine ducenttrevigintillion, seven hundred seventy four ducentdovigintilliard, three hundred thirty nine ducentdovigintillion, two hundred ninety seven ducentunvigintilliard, one hundred seventy three ducentunvigintillion, six hundred eighty ducentvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty five ducentvigintillion, six hundred ten ducentnovemdecilliard, nine hundred fifty nine ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred ninety nine ducentoctodecilliard, nine hundred eleven ducentoctodecillion, three hundred nine ducentseptendecilliard, one hundred eighty nine ducentseptendecillion, seven hundred eighty eight ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred thirty eight ducentsexdecillion, three hundred fifty ducentquindecilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentquindecillion, six hundred thirty five ducentquattuordecilliard, six hundred seventy two ducentquattuordecillion, six hundred sixty one ducenttredecilliard, four hundred thirty five ducenttredecillion, nine hundred sixty nine ducentdodecilliard, two hundred eighteen ducentdodecillion, two hundred thirty nine ducentundecilliard, nine hundred seventy seven ducentundecillion, one hundred ninety six ducentdecilliard, nine hundred thirty three ducentdecillion, eight hundred seventy four ducentnovemtilliard, three hundred ninety five ducentnovemtillion, four hundred three ducentoctotilliard, nine hundred ninety six ducentoctotillion, six hundred twenty three ducentseptentilliard, six hundred seventy five ducentseptentillion, five hundred eighty ducentsextilliard, five hundred twenty eight ducentsextillion, two hundred eleven ducentquintilliard, two hundred seven ducentquintillion, one hundred thirty six ducentquattuortilliard, three hundred ninety six ducentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy ducenttretilliard, eight hundred fifty eight ducenttretillion, fifty six ducentdotilliard, fifty one ducentdotillion, one hundred sixty ducentuntilliard, seven hundred eighty one ducentuntillion, seven hundred seventy ducentilliard, nine hundred eighty five ducentillion, four hundred fifty two centnovemnonagintilliard, five hundred seventy six centnovemnonagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centoctononagintilliard, thirty two centoctononagintillion, three hundred thirty three centseptennonagintilliard, eight hundred twelve centseptennonagintillion, nine hundred thirty nine centsexnonagintilliard, two hundred seventy two centsexnonagintillion, seven hundred fifty two centquinnonagintilliard, one hundred one centquinnonagintillion, nine hundred forty four centquattuornonagintilliard, six hundred twenty nine centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred twenty seven centtrenonagintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrenonagintillion, three hundred thirteen centdononagintilliard, eight hundred thirty five centdononagintillion, five hundred fifty one centunnonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty five centunnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven centnonagintilliard, ninety five centnonagintillion, nine hundred twenty eight centnovemoctogintilliard, eight hundred eighty five centnovemoctogintillion, two hundred thirty six centoctooctogintilliard, four hundred fifteen centoctooctogintillion, three hundred one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred eighty nine centseptenoctogintillion, two hundred eighteen centsexoctogintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsexoctogintillion, one hundred forty one centquinoctogintilliard, fourteen centquinoctogintillion, five hundred forty one centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred three centquattuoroctogintillion, ninety six centtreoctogintilliard, one hundred ninety one centtreoctogintillion, two hundred seventy centdooctogintilliard, nine hundred thirty four centdooctogintillion, three hundred sixty nine centunoctogintilliard, thirty nine centunoctogintillion, five hundred twenty two centoctogintilliard, ninety eight centoctogintillion, two hundred eighty centnovemseptuagintilliard, three hundred seventeen centnovemseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty eight centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty two centoctoseptuagintillion, sixty one centseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty five centseptenseptuagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centsexseptuagintillion, six hundred forty three centquinseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty eight centquinseptuagintillion, four hundred three centquattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty seven centtreseptuagintilliard, three hundred forty nine centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety centdoseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty four centdoseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty three centunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centunseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety two centseptuagintilliard, eight hundred eighty seven centseptuagintillion, four hundred seventy two centnovemsexagintilliard, two hundred thirty one centnovemsexagintillion, two hundred nineteen centoctosexagintilliard, thirty two centoctosexagintillion, three hundred eighty five centseptensexagintilliard, two hundred eighty one centseptensexagintillion, thirty four centsexsexagintilliard, ninety one centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred twenty four centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred six centquinsexagintillion, six hundred eighteen centquattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred forty seven centquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred forty centtresexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty seven centtresexagintillion, two hundred sixty five centdosexagintilliard, five hundred twenty four centdosexagintillion, two hundred eighty four centunsexagintilliard, eight hundred ninety three centunsexagintillion, three hundred four centsexagintilliard, four hundred seventy four centsexagintillion, eight hundred sixty one centnovemquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty four centnovemquinquagintillion, nine hundred forty two centoctoquinquagintilliard, seventy six centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety nine centseptenquinquagintilliard, forty one centseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine centsexquinquagintilliard, four hundred forty seven centsexquinquagintillion, one hundred sixty five centquinquinquagintilliard, eight hundred thirty eight centquinquinquagintillion, two hundred eighty one centquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred ten centtrequinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred thirty one centdoquinquagintilliard, two hundred six centdoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety centunquinquagintilliard, five hundred one centunquinquagintillion, nine hundred fourteen centquinquagintilliard, five hundred twenty seven centquinquagintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemquadragintilliard, two hundred eighty seven centnovemquadragintillion, three hundred seventy centoctoquadragintilliard, three hundred thirty nine centoctoquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy four centseptenquadragintilliard, seven hundred seven centseptenquadragintillion, two hundred six centsexquadragintilliard, sixteen centsexquadragintillion, eight hundred eighty two centquinquadragintilliard, five hundred sixty two centquinquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty seven centquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred four centquattuorquadragintillion, two hundred seventy centtrequadragintilliard, one hundred seventy centtrequadragintillion, three hundred twenty two centdoquadragintilliard, six hundred six centdoquadragintillion, seven hundred twenty seven centunquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty centunquadragintillion, three hundred forty three centquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy nine centquadragintillion, three hundred twenty six centnovemtrigintilliard, four hundred twenty five centnovemtrigintillion, seven hundred thirty centoctotrigintilliard, ninety one centoctotrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred thirteen centseptentrigintillion, seventy seven centsextrigintilliard, seven hundred nineteen centsextrigintillion, three hundred twenty two centquintrigintilliard, four hundred fifty five centquintrigintillion, three hundred ninety four centquattuortrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three centquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred sixty centtretrigintilliard, six hundred six centtretrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centdotrigintilliard, two hundred fourteen centdotrigintillion, three hundred twenty six centuntrigintilliard, six hundred three centuntrigintillion, one hundred fifty six centtrigintilliard, one hundred forty one centtrigintillion, four hundred ninety centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred forty centnovemvigintillion, five hundred fifty seven centoctovigintilliard, six hundred ninety eight centoctovigintillion, fifty five centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred sixty six centseptenvigintillion, two hundred sixty three centsexvigintilliard, forty four centsexvigintillion, four hundred forty seven centquinvigintilliard, five hundred eighty three centquinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty six centquattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred eleven centquattuorvigintillion, five hundred sixteen centtrevigintilliard, four hundred ninety centtrevigintillion, one hundred eighty one centdovigintilliard, one hundred ninety three centdovigintillion, four hundred forty two centunvigintilliard, two hundred thirty six centunvigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine centvigintilliard, four hundred twenty four centvigintillion, one hundred fifty one centnovemdecilliard, eight hundred forty three centnovemdecillion, seven hundred ninety five centoctodecilliard, three hundred eighty nine centoctodecillion, three hundred thirty five centseptendecilliard, seven hundred sixty five centseptendecillion, four hundred thirty two centsexdecilliard, one hundred twenty nine centsexdecillion, nine hundred forty four centquindecilliard, fifty four centquindecillion, eight hundred fifty five centquattuordecilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuordecillion, one hundred fifty five centtredecilliard, eight hundred fifty nine centtredecillion, two hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, four hundred twenty four centdodecillion, five hundred sixty one centundecilliard, eight hundred twenty five centundecillion, one hundred forty six centdecilliard, eight hundred thirteen centdecillion, seven hundred fourteen centnovemtilliard, seven hundred twenty centnovemtillion, six hundred six centoctotilliard, two hundred eighty seven centoctotillion, seven hundred eighty one centseptentilliard, twenty one centseptentillion, two hundred forty centsextilliard, nine hundred twenty three centsextillion, seven hundred eight centquintilliard, twenty one centquintillion, four hundred ninety two centquattuortilliard, two hundred ninety eight centquattuortillion, three hundred forty nine centtretilliard, six hundred thirty five centtretillion, one hundred seventy nine centdotilliard, five hundred twenty seven centdotillion, two hundred seventy centuntilliard, three hundred two centuntillion, nine hundred sixty two centilliard, nine hundred seventy centillion, one hundred fifty six novemnonagintilliard, nine hundred twenty seven novemnonagintillion, six hundred eighty six octononagintilliard, five hundred eleven octononagintillion, six hundred thirty five septennonagintilliard, fifty septennonagintillion, eighty sexnonagintilliard, four hundred seven sexnonagintillion, two hundred eighty two quinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy four quinnonagintillion, two hundred fifty two quattuornonagintilliard, three hundred sixty two quattuornonagintillion, six hundred forty four trenonagintilliard, six hundred ninety five trenonagintillion, seven hundred ten dononagintilliard, seven hundred sixty nine dononagintillion, seven hundred sixty eight unnonagintilliard, eight hundred sixty six unnonagintillion, one hundred thirty seven nonagintilliard, three hundred two nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty nine novemoctogintilliard, three hundred thirteen novemoctogintillion, six hundred nine octooctogintilliard, six hundred seventy four octooctogintillion, three hundred eighty two septenoctogintilliard, seven hundred nineteen septenoctogintillion, seventeen sexoctogintilliard, three hundred eighty five sexoctogintillion, five hundred eight quinoctogintilliard, four hundred eighty four quinoctogintillion, six hundred sixty three quattuoroctogintilliard, three hundred seventy three quattuoroctogintillion, four hundred seventy six treoctogintilliard, one hundred twenty treoctogintillion, eight hundred forty three dooctogintilliard, five hundred sixty seven dooctogintillion, nine hundred eighty three unoctogintilliard, sixty five unoctogintillion, fifty nine octogintilliard, five hundred fifty eight octogintillion, seventy two novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty five novemseptuagintillion, one hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, six hundred thirty seven octoseptuagintillion, five hundred forty four septenseptuagintilliard, two hundred forty septenseptuagintillion, eight hundred seven sexseptuagintilliard, three hundred fifty sexseptuagintillion, six hundred sixty seven quinseptuagintilliard, eighty two quinseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven quattuorseptuagintilliard, two hundred thirty three quattuorseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy nine treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight treseptuagintillion, eight hundred seventy four doseptuagintilliard, nine hundred thirty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred eighty three unseptuagintilliard, five hundred eighty four unseptuagintillion, five hundred twenty three septuagintilliard, ninety five septuagintillion, six hundred thirty eight novemsexagintilliard, nine hundred ninety six novemsexagintillion, one hundred twenty octosexagintilliard, six hundred sixteen octosexagintillion, three hundred eighteen septensexagintilliard, six hundred thirty four septensexagintillion, three hundred ninety one sexsexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty seven sexsexagintillion, one hundred twelve quinsexagintilliard, eighty six quinsexagintillion, four hundred sixty four quattuorsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty four quattuorsexagintillion, six hundred forty nine tresexagintilliard, four hundred seventy tresexagintillion, nine hundred sixty three dosexagintilliard, two hundred thirty dosexagintillion, seventy two unsexagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine unsexagintillion, two hundred sexagintilliard, nine hundred twelve sexagintillion, five hundred eighty six novemquinquagintilliard, one hundred forty seven novemquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty seven octoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred ninety nine octoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two septenquinquagintilliard, four hundred ninety six septenquinquagintillion, seven hundred nine sexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two sexquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty nine quinquinquagintilliard, five hundred three quinquinquagintillion, five hundred thirty five quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred twenty four trequinquagintilliard, four hundred sixteen trequinquagintillion, two hundred two doquinquagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven doquinquagintillion, seven hundred twenty unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty one unquinquagintillion, two hundred forty eight quinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty three quinquagintillion, five hundred ninety two novemquadragintilliard, two hundred two novemquadragintillion, eight hundred twenty eight octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty three octoquadragintillion, three hundred eleven septenquadragintilliard, one hundred forty septenquadragintillion, eight hundred thirty three sexquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty three sexquadragintillion, three hundred two quinquadragintilliard, four hundred thirty three quinquadragintillion, nine hundred seventeen quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety seven quattuorquadragintillion, nine hundred seventy six trequadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety trequadragintillion, three hundred eleven doquadragintilliard, four hundred twenty five doquadragintillion, eight hundred forty three unquadragintilliard, six hundred nineteen unquadragintillion, three hundred fifty quadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty six quadragintillion, seven hundred fifty four novemtrigintilliard, four hundred eighty three novemtrigintillion, eight hundred eleven octotrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four octotrigintillion, four hundred eight septentrigintilliard, eight hundred twelve septentrigintillion, seven hundred sixty three sextrigintilliard, three hundred eighty eight sextrigintillion, eighty four quintrigintilliard, two hundred four quintrigintillion, four hundred fifty one quattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred four quattuortrigintillion, nine hundred twelve tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifty four tretrigintillion, three hundred eighty three dotrigintilliard, eight hundred eighty four dotrigintillion, one hundred eighty untrigintilliard, eight hundred untrigintillion, nine hundred forty five trigintilliard, two hundred seventy five trigintillion, six hundred twenty six novemvigintilliard, six hundred sixty eight novemvigintillion, fifty seven octovigintilliard, six hundred twenty eight octovigintillion, nine hundred fifty four septenvigintilliard, seven hundred sixty three septenvigintillion, three hundred eighty four sexvigintilliard, six hundred forty one sexvigintillion, three hundred five quinvigintilliard, one hundred seven quinvigintillion, seven hundred fifty three quattuorvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy three quattuorvigintillion, two hundred forty seven trevigintilliard, eighty two trevigintillion, four hundred ninety five dovigintilliard, eight hundred four dovigintillion, five hundred thirty three unvigintilliard, three hundred fifty five unvigintillion, seven hundred seventeen vigintilliard, four hundred eighty one vigintillion, nine hundred sixty five novemdecilliard, twenty five novemdecillion, seventy octodecilliard, eight hundred nineteen octodecillion, seven hundred thirty septendecilliard, four hundred sixty six septendecillion, four hundred twenty two sexdecilliard, eight hundred twenty six sexdecillion, one hundred five quindecilliard, six hundred ninety seven quindecillion, five hundred ten quattuordecilliard, five hundred sixty four quattuordecillion, two hundred eighty nine tredecilliard, seven hundred ninety eight tredecillion, nine hundred fifty one dodecilliard, one hundred eighty two dodecillion, one hundred ninety two undecilliard, eight hundred eighty five undecillion, nine hundred seventy six decilliard, three hundred fifty two decillion, two hundred twenty nine nonilliard, fifty three nonillion, eight hundred ninety eight octilliard, nine hundred forty eight octillion, seven hundred thirty seven septilliard, six hundred fourteen septillion, six hundred forty two sextilliard, one hundred thirty nine sextillion, nine hundred ten quintilliard, nine hundred eleven quintillion, five hundred thirty five quadrilliard, eight hundred sixty four quadrillion, five hundred five trilliard, eight hundred eighteen trillion, nine hundred ninety two billiard, six hundred ninety six billion, eight hundred twenty six milliard, two hundred twenty five million, seven hundred fifty four thousand, one hundred eleven

is mersenne prime #21

This is interesting... by craenor · 2003-01-01 06:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

I happen to think that for the most part you have the right to put anything you want on your website. If you want to run a parody of Dow, the Pope or John Lennon, go for it.

However, with that being said. Your ISP doesn't necessarily have to put up with that. They also have a right to decide what content they will host on their servers. If they take offense at your postings or bow to pressure from a corporation or the government, that's well within their right.

They run a business. Just because you want to take a risk with something you choose to write. Doesn't meant they have to take the risk with you.

Re:This is interesting... by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 06:31 · Score: 2

Should the government (or corporations maliciously using the legal system-->therefore government) be able to pressure ISP's about content?
Re:This is interesting... by craenor · 2003-01-01 06:47 · Score: 2

They can certainly try. Bluffing is not against the law. Corporations, government, lobbyists, lawyers, churches, private individuals ... all of these groups will at times attempt to pressure others with legalize, bad press and the like.
Re:This is interesting... by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 06:59 · Score: 2

Ah, but what about frivilous law suits and spurious DMCA ceast and desist letters. You don't see how that might have a chilling effect on speech?
Re:This is interesting... by octalgirl · 2003-01-01 08:06 · Score: 2

Your ISP doesn't necessarily have to put up with that. They also have a right to decide what content they will host on their servers.

You miss the point - they didn't take the site down (a customer of theirs for many years) because they wanted to, they took it down because they were forced to after being hit with the DMCA. The safe harbor provisions in the DMCA makes them take it down, or be sued themselves. To me this all equals web censorship. Whether the site is right or wrong, there were other ways Dow could have approached this - they went for the 'Let's silence our enemy' tactic.
Re:This is interesting... by HiThere · 2003-01-01 09:41 · Score: 2

The Parody site was a bit over the line. They were attempting to confuse the reader into believing that they were DOW. (I was confused. The author of the story was confused. etc. And I had been warned.)

OTOH, the actions of the Yes Men were in no way as reprehensible as the response from DOW. This is similar to the protest at Bhophal. DOW had done what it was legally required to do, so the protest could be seen by DOW as unjust. But it doesn't even compare in magnitude with the response from DOW. Suing the protestors for 10 years income is vile beyond words. These are people that they (via their surrogate, Union Carbide) have already poisoned, and that happened to survive. There is no way to describe how viley malicious I believe the management and legal staff of DOW to be. They are good evidence that corporations should only be chartered for a limited period of time, and that the charters should NOT be renewable. They are good evidence that management of corporations should be held personally responsible for the deeds of the corporation. Probably also the members of the board, who, after all, are charged with oversight.

Corporations that engage in acts as vile as that should have their charters revoked immediately, with forfeiture of all assets. The victims should be paid first (NOT the government, but the people who were injured), and then the stockholders. And this includes confiscating the wealth of the members of the board and the upper-management. Any "golden parachutes" should be included in the confiscation.

Legal? Of couse what I'm proposing isn't legal. Who writes the *** laws that let vile *** get away with things like this? An accident is one thing, but this response is unconsciousable.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:This is interesting... by ftobin · 2003-01-01 13:57 · Score: 2

I take it you don't believe in the value of common carrier laws for telephone providers? Do you think that telephone companies should be able to filter what you talk about on the telephone? Granted, ISP's are not common carriers (yet; there is debate about this), but in my mind, there is great value in having conduits of information not allowed to discriminate based upon the content of the information.

You have to be joking by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:01 · Score: 0

One needs to read only a few lines of "Dow's" response to realize that it's just a very well done frameup, and by the time you're into the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs it's hard to keep from gagging in hysterics.

You can't be serious that anyone would really think that this geniunely came from Dow. Come on.

Re:You have to be joking by EvanED · 2003-01-01 06:46 · Score: 2

Look over this site; I've seen easily half a dozen people who were taken *and posted the dowethics site as an actuial dow release*. I cannot claim innocence here; I was fooled as well. Now, I found it incredible that anyone--even Dow--would come up with that release seriously, but until someone replied saying it was the parody site, that didn't even cross my mind.

The Yes Men could be at fault by fermion · 2003-01-01 06:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

OK people, let take a chill pill and look at the situation. In my opinion a parody should be an original creation, be distinct from the object of satire, and not be deceptive. The Onion is an excellent example of effective and creative satire.

In the case of the "Yes Men" the attempt seems to be using parody and satire to effect social activism. This, in itself, is not a bad or uncommon thing. However, if one is going to do this, one has to make sure the creation is actually satire.

The main tool that they use on the web appears to be 'Reamweaver', a tool to copy a website and modify in small ways. From the Reamweaver website we have
Reamweaver has everything you need to instantly "funhouse-mirror" anyone's website, copying the real-time "look and feel" but letting you change any words, images, etc. that you choose.
and
Use Reamweaver for fun, or, if you like, for lots of fun... by obtaining speaking opportunities on behalf of your adopted organization. Here's how to that:
1. (Optional) Register a domain not too different from your target's domain - e.g. we-forum.org, world-economic-forum.com, wtoo.org, rncommittee.org .
2. Put Reamweaver on your domain.
3. Tell search engines about your domain.
4. When invitations arrive, accept them!
This does not seem to a tool conducive to satire. This appears to be a tool that is to be used to misrepresent, decieve, and ultimately allow an individual to go into the community as the perceived representative of the company under attack.

Social activism is good. Trying to create a better world is good. However, when you invite a person from Dow Chemical to your office, one would expect that the person is actually from dow chemical. Furthermore, I am not sure I would equate the Reamweaver technique to a person who registers a slightly misspelled domain name and then puts up tons of pop ups and installs viruses when some unsuspecting visitors accidently hits the site.

I understand that the intention of the Yes Men are probably just. I understand that they are probably good people,. However, copying someone else's website and representing it as your own is not good. It is one thing to rip other artists CDs for personal use. It is another thing to rip those CDs and then sell the copies. It is yet another thing to rip those CDs change a few seconds, and then represent the tracks as your own. What they are doing might be peaceful disobendience. It does not seem to be satire

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black

Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:18 · Score: 0

thirty four quadringentoctononagintilliard, six hundred eight quadringentoctononagintillion, eight hundred twenty eight quadringentseptennonagintilliard, two hundred forty nine quadringentseptennonagintillion, eighty five quadringentsexnonagintilliard, one hundred twenty one quadringentsexnonagintillion, five hundred twenty four quadringentquinnonagintilliard, two hundred ninety six quadringentquinnonagintillion, thirty nine quadringentquattuornonagintilliard, five hundred seventy six quadringentquattuornonagintillion, seven hundred forty one quadringenttrenonagintilliard, three hundred thirty one quadringenttrenonagintillion, six hundred seventy two quadringentdononagintilliard, two hundred sixty two quadringentdononagintillion, eight hundred sixty six quadringentunnonagintilliard, eight hundred ninety quadringentunnonagintillion, twenty three quadringentnonagintilliard, eight hundred fifty four quadringentnonagintillion, seven hundred seventy nine quadringentnovemoctogintilliard, forty eight quadringentnovemoctogintillion, nine hundred twenty eight quadringentoctooctogintilliard, three hundred forty four quadringentoctooctogintillion, five hundred quadringentseptenoctogintilliard, six hundred twenty two quadringentseptenoctogintillion, eighty quadringentsexoctogintilliard, nine hundred eighty three quadringentsexoctogintillion, four hundred eleven quadringentquinoctogintilliard, four hundred forty six quadringentquinoctogintillion, four hundred thirty six quadringentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred thirty seven quadringentquattuoroctogintillion, five hundred fifty four quadringenttreoctogintilliard, four hundred fifteen quadringenttreoctogintillion, three hundred seventy quadringentdooctogintilliard, seven hundred fifty three quadringentdooctogintillion, three hundred sixty six quadringentunoctogintilliard, four hundred forty eight quadringentunoctogintillion, six hundred seventy four quadringentoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty three quadringentoctogintillion, five hundred five quadringentnovemseptuagintilliard, eighteen quadringentnovemseptuagintillion, six hundred forty one quadringentoctoseptuagintilliard, four hundred seventy quadringentoctoseptuagintillion, seven hundred nine quadringentseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred thirty two quadringentseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred seventy three quadringentsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy quadringentsexseptuagintillion, six hundred eight quadringentquinseptuagintilliard, three hundred seventy six quadringentquinseptuagintillion, six hundred ninety quadringentquattuorseptuagintilliard, four hundred four quadringentquattuorseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty nine quadringenttreseptuagintilliard, two hundred sixty five quadringenttreseptuagintillion, seven hundred eighty nine quadringentdoseptuagintilliard, six hundred forty seven quadringentdoseptuagintillion, nine hundred ninety three quadringentunseptuagintilliard, seven hundred nine quadringentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred sixty quadringentseptuagintilliard, three hundred fifty eight quadringentseptuagintillion, four hundred sixty nine quadringentnovemsexagintilliard, five hundred fifty two quadringentnovemsexagintillion, three hundred nineteen quadringentoctosexagintilliard, forty five quadringentoctosexagintillion, four hundred eighty four quadringentseptensexagintilliard, nine hundred ten quadringentseptensexagintillion, fifty quadringentsexsexagintilliard, three hundred four quadringentsexsexagintillion, one hundred forty nine quadringentquinsexagintilliard, eight hundred nine quadringentquinsexagintillion, eight hundred eighteen quadringentquattuorsexagintilliard, five hundred forty quadringentquattuorsexagintillion, two hundred eighty three quadringenttresexagintilliard, five hundred seven quadringenttresexagintillion, one hundred fifty nine quadringentdosexagintilliard, six hundred eighty three quadringentdosexagintillion, five hundred sixty two quadringentunsexagintilliard, two hundred thirty two quadringentunsexagintillion, nine hundred forty one quadringentsexagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight quadringentsexagintillion, fifty nine quadringentnovemquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty two quadringentnovemquinquagintillion, two hundred eighty one quadringentoctoquinquagintilliard, three hundred thirty four quadringentoctoquinquagintillion, five hundred forty four quadringentseptenquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty nine quadringentseptenquinquagintillion, seven hundred twenty quadringentsexquinquagintilliard, eight hundred forty nine quadringentsexquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty quadringentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred four quadringentquinquinquagintillion, eight hundred fifty five quadringentquattuorquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety two quadringentquattuorquinquagintillion, seven hundred seventy quadringenttrequinquagintilliard, six hundred twenty six quadringenttrequinquagintillion, fifty four quadringentdoquinquagintilliard, nine hundred eleven quadringentdoquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety three quadringentunquinquagintilliard, five hundred ninety quadringentunquinquagintillion, three hundred eighty nine quadringentquinquagintilliard, sixty quadringentquinquagintillion, seven hundred ninety five quadringentnovemquadragintilliard, nine hundred eighty one quadringentnovemquadragintillion, one hundred sixty three quadringentoctoquadragintilliard, eight hundred thirty eight quadringentoctoquadragintillion, seven hundred twenty one quadringentseptenquadragintilliard, four hundred thirty two quadringentseptenquadragintillion, nine hundred ninety four quadringentsexquadragintilliard, two hundred seventy eight quadringentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred sixty three quadringentquinquadragintilliard, six hundred thirty three quadringentquinquadragintillion, ninety five quadringentquattuorquadragintilliard, three hundred seventy seven quadringentquattuorquadragintillion, four hundred thirty eight quadringenttrequadragintilliard, one hundred ninety four quadringenttrequadragintillion, eight hundred forty four quadringentdoquadragintilliard, eight hundred sixty six quadringentdoquadragintillion, four hundred seventy one quadringentunquadragintilliard, one hundred twenty four quadringentunquadragintillion, nine hundred sixty seven quadringentquadragintilliard, six hundred eighty five quadringentquadragintillion, seven hundred ninety eight quadringentnovemtrigintilliard, eight hundred eighty eight quadringentnovemtrigintillion, one hundred seventy two quadringentoctotrigintilliard, two hundred twelve quadringentoctotrigintillion, thirty three quadringentseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred twenty one quadringentsextrigintilliard, four hundred sixty nine quadringentsextrigintillion, six hundred eighty four quadringentquintrigintilliard, four hundred sixty four quadringentquintrigintillion, nine hundred fifty six quadringentquattuortrigintilliard, one hundred forty six quadringentquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred ninety seven quadringenttretrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four quadringenttretrigintillion, one hundred twenty six quadringentdotrigintilliard, nine hundred twenty one quadringentdotrigintillion, two hundred eighty four quadringentuntrigintilliard, three hundred thirty six quadringentuntrigintillion, two hundred six quadringenttrigintilliard, four hundred sixty three quadringenttrigintillion, three hundred thirteen quadringentnovemvigintilliard, eight hundred fifty nine quadringentnovemvigintillion, five hundred thirty seven quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy seven quadringentoctovigintillion, two hundred quadringentseptenvigintilliard, four hundred sixty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, four hundred forty two quadringentsexvigintilliard, twenty nine quadringentsexvigintillion, sixty four quadringentquinvigintilliard, six hundred eighty one quadringentquinvigintillion, three hundred twenty six quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, eighty seven quadringentquattuorvigintillion, five hundred fifty eight quadringenttrevigintilliard, two hundred fifty seven quadringenttrevigintillion, four hundred eighty eight quadringentdovigintilliard, four hundred seventy quadringentdovigintillion, four hundred eighty nine quadringentunvigintilliard, three hundred eighty four quadringentunvigintillion, two hundred forty three quadringentvigintilliard, nine hundred eighty nine quadringentvigintillion, two hundred seventy quadringentnovemdecilliard, two hundred thirty six quadringentnovemdecillion, eight hundred eighty four quadringentoctodecilliard, nine hundred seventy eight quadringentoctodecillion, six hundred forty three quadringentseptendecilliard, sixty three quadringentseptendecillion, ninety three quadringentsexdecilliard, four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty two quadringentquindecilliard, nine hundred thirty nine quadringentquindecillion, six hundred three quadringentquattuordecilliard, three hundred seventy quadringentquattuordecillion, ten quadringenttredecilliard, five hundred forty six quadringenttredecillion, five hundred ninety five quadringentdodecilliard, three hundred eighty six quadringentdodecillion, three hundred two quadringentundecilliard, nine quadringentundecillion, seventy three quadringentdecilliard, forty three quadringentdecillion, nine hundred forty four quadringentnovemtilliard, four hundred eighty two quadringentnovemtillion, two hundred two quadringentoctotilliard, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotillion, ninety seven quadringentseptentilliard, four hundred six quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred quadringentsextilliard, five hundred ninety seven quadringentsextillion, three hundred thirty quadringentquintilliard, five hundred seventy quadringentquintillion, seven hundred ninety nine quadringentquattuortilliard, five hundred seven quadringentquattuortillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringenttretilliard, nine hundred sixty three quadringenttretillion, one hundred thirty quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred thirty eight quadringentdotillion, seven hundred thirty nine quadringentuntilliard, eight hundred eighty five quadringentuntillion, eighty quadringentilliard, one hundred ninety eight quadringentillion, four hundred sixteen trecentnovemnonagintilliard, two hundred fifty eight trecentnovemnonagintillion, six hundred thirty five trecentoctononagintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentoctononagintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentseptennonagintilliard, nine hundred thirteen trecentseptennonagintillion, forty two trecentsexnonagintilliard, five hundred sixty two trecentsexnonagintillion, nine hundred thirty six trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy nine trecentquinnonagintillion, eight hundred fifty nine trecentquattuornonagintilliard, five hundred eighty seven trecentquattuornonagintillion, four hundred ninety five trecenttrenonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty one trecenttrenonagintillion, thirty one trecentdononagintilliard, one hundred seventy three trecentdononagintillion, seven hundred forty seven trecentunnonagintilliard, seven hundred ninety six trecentunnonagintillion, four hundred eighteen trecentnonagintilliard, eight hundred ninety five trecentnonagintillion, sixty trecentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred one trecentnovemoctogintillion, nine hundred forty one trecentoctooctogintilliard, seven hundred seventeen trecentoctooctogintillion, five hundred six trecentseptenoctogintilliard, one trecentseptenoctogintillion, nine hundred thirty seven trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentsexoctogintillion, four hundred thirty trecentquinoctogintilliard, thirty two trecentquinoctogintillion, three hundred sixty three trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, six hundred thirty one trecentquattuoroctogintillion, nine hundred thirty four trecenttreoctogintilliard, two hundred sixty five trecenttreoctogintillion, seven hundred ninety eight trecentdooctogintilliard, five hundred sixteen trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred thirty six trecentunoctogintilliard, forty seven trecentunoctogintillion, four hundred fifty one trecentoctogintilliard, two hundred nine trecentoctogintillion, eighty nine trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, eight hundred sixty four trecentnovemseptuagintillion, seven hundred seven trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, four hundred thirty trecentoctoseptuagintillion, seven hundred eighty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred sixty two trecentseptenseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety eight trecentsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred seven trecentsexseptuagintillion, thirty eight trecentquinseptuagintilliard, one hundred ninety three trecentquinseptuagintillion, four hundred forty five trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred ninety three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecenttreseptuagintillion, six hundred forty seven trecentdoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred ninety one trecentdoseptuagintillion, eight hundred four trecentunseptuagintilliard, two hundred fifty eight trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, five hundred seventy four trecentseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy three trecentnovemsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty three trecentnovemsexagintillion, nine hundred three trecentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred fifteen trecentoctosexagintillion, seven hundred thirty five trecentseptensexagintilliard, eighty two trecentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred ninety one trecentsexsexagintilliard, twenty nine trecentsexsexagintillion, three hundred ninety two trecentquinsexagintilliard, three hundred fifty nine trecentquinsexagintillion, three hundred fifty two trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, seven hundred fifty eight trecentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred seventeen trecenttresexagintilliard, one hundred eighty five trecenttresexagintillion, nineteen trecentdosexagintilliard, nine hundred forty two trecentdosexagintillion, five hundred fifty four trecentunsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four trecentunsexagintillion, six hundred seventy one trecentsexagintilliard, eight hundred sixty one trecentsexagintillion, seventy four trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred forty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, seven hundred seventy two trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty nine trecentoctoquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine trecentseptenquinquagintillion, six hundred six trecentsexquinquagintilliard, two hundred forty four trecentsexquinquagintillion, nine hundred eleven trecentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred forty trecentquinquinquagintillion, sixty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, one hundred twelve trecenttrequinquagintilliard, eight hundred twenty three trecenttrequinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty four trecentdoquinquagintilliard, ninety five trecentdoquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen trecentunquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty eight trecentunquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty one trecentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty one trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixty one trecentnovemquadragintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentnovemquadragintillion, six hundred four trecentoctoquadragintilliard, thirty four trecentoctoquadragintillion, eight hundred two trecentseptenquadragintilliard, fifty six trecentseptenquadragintillion, four hundred sixty six trecentsexquadragintilliard, eight hundred twenty three trecentsexquadragintillion, one hundred forty three trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred eighteen trecentquinquadragintillion, two hundred fifty five trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred ninety two trecentquattuorquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred eighty trecentdoquadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety one trecentdoquadragintillion, seven hundred forty nine trecentunquadragintilliard, five hundred eighty trecentunquadragintillion, two hundred fifty five trecentquadragintilliard, two hundred sixty three trecentquadragintillion, three hundred twenty three trecentnovemtrigintilliard, three hundred twenty six trecentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred thirty six trecentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred fifty seven trecentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred forty three trecentseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred ninety four trecentseptentrigintillion, one hundred fifty trecentsextrigintilliard, eight hundred forty eight trecentsextrigintillion, nine hundred fifty three trecentquintrigintilliard, nine hundred sixty nine trecentquintrigintillion, nine hundred two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred eighteen trecentquattuortrigintillion, five hundred thirty trecenttretrigintilliard, fifty seven trecenttretrigintillion, eight hundred seventy trecentdotrigintilliard, eight hundred seventy six trecentdotrigintillion, two hundred twenty nine trecentuntrigintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentuntrigintillion, eight hundred three trecenttrigintilliard, three hundred thirty eight trecenttrigintillion, two hundred eighty five trecentnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred thirty five trecentnovemvigintillion, four hundred nineteen trecentoctovigintilliard, two hundred twenty eight trecentoctovigintillion, two hundred fifty nine trecentseptenvigintilliard, twenty two trecentseptenvigintillion, one hundred sixty nine trecentsexvigintilliard, six hundred two trecentsexvigintillion, six hundred sixty five trecentquinvigintilliard, five hundred thirty two trecentquinvigintillion, two hundred ten trecentquattuorvigintilliard, eight hundred thirty four trecentquattuorvigintillion, seven hundred eighty nine trecenttrevigintilliard, six hundred two trecenttrevigintillion, fifty one trecentdovigintilliard, six hundred eighty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunvigintilliard, eleven trecentunvigintillion, four hundred sixty six trecentvigintilliard, seven hundred thirty seven trecentvigintillion, nine hundred eighty one trecentnovemdecilliard, three hundred six trecentnovemdecillion, fifty six trecentoctodecilliard, two hundred forty seven trecentoctodecillion, four hundred eighty trecentseptendecilliard, fifty five trecentseptendecillion, seventy one trecentsexdecilliard, seven hundred eighteen trecentsexdecillion, two hundred fifty trecentquindecilliard, three hundred thirty three trecentquindecillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentquattuordecilliard, five hundred two trecentquattuordecillion, two hundred sixty seven trecenttredecilliard, three hundred seven trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty four trecentdodecilliard, one hundred seventy eight trecentdodecillion, five hundred 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ducentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred ninety eight ducentnovemquadragintillion, four hundred eighty eight ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seventy ducentoctoquadragintillion, twenty seven ducentseptenquadragintilliard, eighty eight ducentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred five ducentsexquadragintilliard, eight hundred forty two ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred forty nine ducentquinquadragintilliard, six hundred five ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred three ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, sixty three ducentquattuorquadragintillion, one hundred ninety four ducenttrequadragintilliard, one hundred ninety one ducenttrequadragintillion, one hundred sixty six ducentdoquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty two ducentdoquadragintillion, one hundred six ducentunquadragintilliard, one hundred seventy six ducentunquadragintillion, one hundred fifty seven ducentquadragintilliard, six hundred nine ducentquadragintillion, three hundred sixty seven ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two 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ducentoctovigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight ducentoctovigintillion, three hundred sixty ducentseptenvigintilliard, three hundred twenty three ducentseptenvigintillion, two ducentsexvigintilliard, two hundred sixty seven ducentsexvigintillion, four hundred thirty four ducentquinvigintilliard, two hundred ninety five ducentquinvigintillion, one hundred ninety four ducentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty five ducentquattuorvigintillion, six hundred seven ducenttrevigintilliard, two hundred eighty ducenttrevigintillion, six hundred sixty one ducentdovigintilliard, two hundred sixty ducentdovigintillion, one hundred nineteen ducentunvigintilliard, three hundred seventy eight ducentunvigintillion, seven hundred nineteen ducentvigintilliard, four hundred five ducentvigintillion, one hundred fifty one ducentnovemdecilliard, four hundred ninety seven ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred fifty five ducentoctodecilliard, one hundred eighty seven ducentoctodecillion, five hundred forty nine ducentseptendecilliard, two hundred fifty two ducentseptendecillion, one hundred thirty four ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred sixty four ducentsexdecillion, three hundred ninety four ducentquindecilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquindecillion, nine hundred sixty three ducentquattuordecilliard, eight hundred fifty three ducentquattuordecillion, nine hundred sixty four ducenttredecilliard, nine hundred thirteen ducenttredecillion, three hundred nine ducentdodecilliard, six hundred ninety seven ducentdodecillion, seven hundred seventy six ducentundecilliard, five hundred thirty three ducentundecillion, three hundred twenty nine ducentdecilliard, four hundred one ducentdecillion, eight hundred twenty two ducentnovemtilliard, one hundred fifty eight ducentnovemtillion, three ducentoctotilliard, one hundred eighty two ducentoctotillion, eight hundred eighty nine ducentseptentilliard, two hundred seventy eight ducentseptentillion, seventy two ducentsextilliard, three hundred sixty eight ducentsextillion, six hundred two ducentquintilliard, one hundred twenty eight ducentquintillion, nine hundred eighty two ducentquattuortilliard, seven hundred ten ducentquattuortillion, three hundred six ducenttretilliard, six hundred eighteen ducenttretillion, one hundred fifteen ducentdotilliard, one hundred eighteen ducentdotillion, nine hundred sixty four ducentuntilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentuntillion, eight hundred ninety three ducentilliard, six hundred fifty seven ducentillion, eight hundred forty five centnovemnonagintilliard, four hundred centnovemnonagintillion, two hundred ninety six centoctononagintilliard, eight hundred sixty centoctononagintillion, twelve centseptennonagintilliard, four hundred twenty centseptennonagintillion, three hundred ninety one centsexnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy six centsexnonagintillion, nine hundred sixty four centquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy centquinnonagintillion, one hundred eighty three centquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty three centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety four centtrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty four centtrenonagintillion, one hundred twelve centdononagintilliard, four hundred eighty four centdononagintillion, five hundred sixty five centunnonagintilliard, five hundred ninety seven centunnonagintillion, three hundred twelve centnonagintilliard, four hundred sixty centnonagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven centnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred ninety eight centnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy seven centoctooctogintilliard, ninety two centoctooctogintillion, seventy one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred six centseptenoctogintillion, seven hundred ten centsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred twenty four centsexoctogintillion, five hundred three centquinoctogintilliard, seven hundred seven centquinoctogintillion, four hundred fifty seven centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred twenty centquattuoroctogintillion, one hundred fifty five centtreoctogintilliard, fifteen centtreoctogintillion, eight hundred ninety nine centdooctogintilliard, five hundred ninety one centdooctogintillion, seven hundred sixty six centunoctogintilliard, two hundred forty four centunoctogintillion, nine hundred fifty seven centoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight centoctogintillion, six centnovemseptuagintilliard, eight hundred two centnovemseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty two centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy six centoctoseptuagintillion, six hundred seventy three centseptenseptuagintilliard, nine hundred twenty centseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred ninety two centsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred ninety five centsexseptuagintillion, four hundred ten centquinseptuagintilliard, one hundred sixty four centquinseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty four centquattuorseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred forty five centtreseptuagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty two centdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred forty nine centdoseptuagintillion, eight hundred three centunseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven centunseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty seven centseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eight centseptuagintillion, four hundred twelve centnovemsexagintilliard, nine hundred twenty five centnovemsexagintillion, five hundred fifty five centoctosexagintilliard, five hundred forty two centoctosexagintillion, eight hundred seventeen centseptensexagintilliard, forty five centseptensexagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexsexagintilliard, four hundred thirty centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred forty six centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty nine centquinsexagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred twenty nine centquattuorsexagintillion, nine hundred sixty centtresexagintilliard, five hundred nineteen centtresexagintillion, two hundred twenty seven centdosexagintilliard, three hundred thirteen centdosexagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven centunsexagintilliard, two hundred ninety one centunsexagintillion, two hundred centsexagintilliard, nine hundred two centsexagintillion, sixty centnovemquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty two centnovemquinquagintillion, sixty centoctoquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two centseptenquinquagintilliard, seventy five centseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety two centsexquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine centsexquinquagintillion, four hundred seventy three centquinquinquagintilliard, six hundred sixty six centquinquinquagintillion, four hundred five centquattuorquinquagintilliard, eight hundred ninety seven centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred twenty seven centtrequinquagintilliard, thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred eleven centdoquinquagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centdoquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy nine centunquinquagintilliard, eight hundred seventy five centunquinquagintillion, six hundred ninety four centquinquagintilliard, three hundred fifteen centquinquagintillion, seventy eight centnovemquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty four centnovemquadragintillion, four hundred twenty centoctoquadragintilliard, fifty five centoctoquadragintillion, six hundred three centseptenquadragintilliard, four hundred sixty nine centseptenquadragintillion, six hundred twenty five centsexquadragintilliard, three hundred nine centsexquadragintillion, three hundred ninety nine centquinquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty three centquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty five centquattuorquadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty two centquattuorquadragintillion, three hundred ten centtrequadragintilliard, four hundred sixty six centtrequadragintillion, four hundred thirty centdoquadragintilliard, thirty nine centdoquadragintillion, one hundred forty six centunquadragintilliard, four hundred sixty five centunquadragintillion, eight hundred five centquadragintilliard, four hundred fifty two centquadragintillion, nine hundred sixty five centnovemtrigintilliard, fourteen centnovemtrigintillion, forty centoctotrigintilliard, nineteen centoctotrigintillion, four hundred twenty three centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred ninety seven centseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two centsextrigintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsextrigintillion, five hundred thirty four centquintrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight centquintrigintillion, two hundred forty eight centquattuortrigintilliard, six hundred twenty four centquattuortrigintillion, six hundred thirty one centtretrigintilliard, nine hundred fifty one centtretrigintillion, four hundred thirty one centdotrigintilliard, four hundred ninety three centdotrigintillion, one hundred eighty eight centuntrigintilliard, one hundred seventy centuntrigintillion, nine hundred five centtrigintilliard, nine hundred seventy two centtrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred eighty centnovemvigintillion, one hundred eleven centoctovigintilliard, eight hundred fifty centoctovigintillion, two hundred eighty one centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred ninety centseptenvigintillion, five hundred fifty nine centsexvigintilliard, seventy three centsexvigintillion, six hundred seventy seven centquinvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy one centquinvigintillion, one hundred eighty seven centquattuorvigintilliard, four hundred thirty two centquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred fourteen centtrevigintilliard, eighty eight centtrevigintillion, six hundred seventy eight centdovigintilliard, six hundred seventy four centdovigintillion, two hundred eighty six centunvigintilliard, three hundred two centunvigintillion, one hundred eight centvigintilliard, two hundred seventy five centvigintillion, one hundred forty nine centnovemdecilliard, two hundred fifty eight centnovemdecillion, four hundred seventy seven centoctodecilliard, one hundred one centoctodecillion, two hundred ninety six centseptendecilliard, four hundred fifty one centseptendecillion, eight hundred thirty three centsexdecilliard, six hundred fifty one centsexdecillion, nine hundred seventy nine centquindecilliard, seven hundred seventeen centquindecillion, three hundred seventy five centquattuordecilliard, one hundred seventy centquattuordecillion, nine hundred centtredecilliard, five hundred five centtredecillion, six hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, six hundred forty five centdodecillion, nine hundred sixty four centundecilliard, six hundred ninety six centundecillion, three hundred fifty five centdecilliard, three hundred thirty one centdecillion, three hundred sixty nine centnovemtilliard, eight hundred nineteen centnovemtillion, two hundred ninety six centoctotilliard, two hundred sixty seven centseptentilliard, three hundred eighty nine centseptentillion, five hundred eighty three centsextilliard, two hundred eighty nine centsextillion, two hundred ninety nine centquintilliard, one hundred twenty six centquintillion, seven hundred thirty eight centquattuortilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuortillion, seven hundred twenty six centtretilliard, nine hundred eighty centtretillion, three hundred twenty five centdotilliard, nine hundred ninety eight centdotillion, nine hundred fifty five centuntilliard, nine hundred ninety seven centuntillion, five hundred one centilliard, one hundred seventy six centillion, six hundred sixty four novemnonagintilliard, two hundred one novemnonagintillion, forty two octononagintilliard, eight hundred eighty eight octononagintillion, five hundred forty six septennonagintilliard, eighty five septennonagintillion, six hundred ninety nine sexnonagintilliard, four hundred forty six sexnonagintillion, four hundred forty two quinnonagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four quinnonagintillion, one hundred ninety five quattuornonagintilliard, two hundred thirty two quattuornonagintillion, nine hundred forty eight trenonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty seven trenonagintillion, four hundred eighty eight dononagintilliard, four hundred ten dononagintillion, five hundred ninety five unnonagintilliard, seven hundred fifty unnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven nonagintilliard, four hundred thirty eight nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty six novemoctogintilliard, three hundred fifty three novemoctogintillion, one hundred nineteen octooctogintilliard, two hundred four octooctogintillion, two hundred ten septenoctogintilliard, eight hundred fifty five septenoctogintillion, eight hundred four sexoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety two sexoctogintillion, four hundred sixty quinoctogintilliard, five hundred eighty two quinoctogintillion, five hundred thirty three quattuoroctogintilliard, eight hundred thirty two quattuoroctogintillion, nine hundred sixty seven treoctogintilliard, seven hundred seventy one treoctogintillion, nine hundred forty six dooctogintilliard, nine hundred eleven dooctogintillion, four hundred fifty nine unoctogintilliard, nine hundred one unoctogintillion, nine hundred twenty one octogintilliard, three hundred twenty four octogintillion, nine hundred eighty four novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight novemseptuagintillion, eight hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, twenty one octoseptuagintillion, one hundred eighty nine septenseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight septenseptuagintillion, two hundred eighty four sexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty one sexseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty one quinseptuagintilliard, five hundred seventy three quinseptuagintillion, one hundred sixty four quattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six quattuorseptuagintillion, three hundred four treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five treseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty doseptuagintilliard, eight hundred sixty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty one unseptuagintilliard, eight hundred twenty three unseptuagintillion, four hundred forty two septuagintilliard, five hundred thirty eight septuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine novemsexagintilliard, five hundred ninety novemsexagintillion, three hundred eighty three octosexagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two octosexagintillion, four hundred twelve septensexagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six septensexagintillion, eight hundred forty sexsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty three sexsexagintillion, four hundred seventy nine quinsexagintilliard, six hundred eleven quinsexagintillion, four hundred nineteen quattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy quattuorsexagintillion, one hundred one tresexagintilliard, seven hundred ninety two tresexagintillion, nine hundred seventy eight dosexagintilliard, three hundred fifty five dosexagintillion, six hundred fifty three unsexagintilliard, six hundred fifty unsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty five sexagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine sexagintillion, one hundred thirty eight novemquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety eight novemquinquagintillion, six hundred fifty four octoquinquagintilliard, two hundred forty six octoquinquagintillion, two hundred twenty five septenquinquagintilliard, three hundred forty six septenquinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty seven sexquinquagintilliard, two hundred seven sexquinquagintillion, five hundred three quinquinquagintilliard, six hundred six quinquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty five quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred fifty six trequinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty eight trequinquagintillion, one hundred twenty seven doquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty three doquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty eight unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventeen unquinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty five quinquagintilliard, nine hundred eighteen quinquagintillion, five hundred twenty seven novemquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy three novemquadragintillion, one hundred sixty four octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred seventy octoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty two septenquadragintilliard, ninety five septenquadragintillion, one hundred eighty one sexquadragintilliard, three hundred twelve sexquadragintillion, nine hundred five quinquadragintilliard, five hundred nineteen quinquadragintillion, two hundred forty two quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ten quattuorquadragintillion, two hundred eighty trequadragintilliard, five hundred seventy three trequadragintillion, twenty three doquadragintilliard, one hundred forty five doquadragintillion, five hundred fifty four unquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety three unquadragintillion, six hundred twenty eight quadragintilliard, four hundred ninety nine quadragintillion, ten novemtrigintilliard, five hundred nine novemtrigintillion, two hundred ninety six octotrigintilliard, fifty five octotrigintillion, eight hundred forty nine septentrigintilliard, seven hundred twelve septentrigintillion, three hundred seventy seven sextrigintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight sextrigintillion, nine hundred eighty four quintrigintilliard, nine hundred twenty one quintrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine quattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred ninety seven quattuortrigintillion, thirty seven tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifteen tretrigintillion, eight hundred ninety seven dotrigintilliard, six hundred seventy four dotrigintillion, one hundred fifty four untrigintilliard, eight hundred thirty untrigintillion, seven hundred eight trigintilliard, six hundred twenty nine trigintillion, one hundred forty five novemvigintilliard, four hundred eighty four novemvigintillion, seven hundred twenty four octovigintilliard, five hundred thirty six octovigintillion, seven hundred twenty four septenvigintilliard, five hundred seventy two septenvigintillion, six hundred twenty two sexvigintilliard, four hundred fifty sexvigintillion, one hundred thirty one quinvigintilliard, four hundred seventy nine quinvigintillion, nine hundred ninety two quattuorvigintilliard, six hundred eighty one quattuorvigintillion, six hundred eighty four trevigintilliard, three hundred ten trevigintillion, four hundred sixty four dovigintilliard, four hundred forty nine dovigintillion, four hundred thirty nine unvigintilliard, twenty two unvigintillion, two hundred fifty vigintilliard, five hundred four vigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine novemdecilliard, two hundred fifty novemdecillion, eight hundred thirty four octodecilliard, seven hundred sixty one octodecillion, eight hundred ninety four septendecilliard, seven hundred eighty eight septendecillion, eight hundred eighty nine sexdecilliard, five hundred fifty two sexdecillion, five hundred twenty seven quindecilliard, eight hundred ninety eight quindecillion, four hundred quattuordecilliard, nine hundred eighty eight quattuordecillion, one hundred ninety six tredecilliard, two hundred tredecillion, fourteen dodecilliard, eight hundred sixty eight dodecillion, five hundred seventy five undecilliard, six hundred forty undecillion, two hundred thirty three decilliard, one hundred thirty six decillion, five hundred nine nonilliard, one hundred forty five nonillion, six hundred twenty eight octilliard, one hundred twenty seven octillion, one hundred ninety one septilliard, three hundred fifty four septillion, eight hundred fifty eight sextilliard, two hundred seventy five sextillion, eighty three quintilliard, nine hundred seven quintillion, eight hundred ninety one quadrilliard, four hundred sixty nine quadrillion, nine hundred seventy nine trilliard, nineteen trillion, four hundred twenty six billiard, two hundred twenty four billion, eight hundred eighty three milliard, seven hundred eighty nine million, four hundred sixty three thousand, five hundred fifty one

is mersenne prime #22
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 06:29 · Score: 2, Flamebait

Oh, God. Copying a website and changing it in small ways for humorous result. That wouldn't be something called parody would it? I've heard of parody. It sounds awful. I hope it's banned. I'm going to write my Congressman asking for a new division of the police force especially designed to break into people's houses looking for this thing called parody. I mean, a company could actually lose PROFIT over a thing like this!
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:35 · Score: 0

You must be the funny guy who ran the "parody" website http://www.paypaI.com right, which "parodied" the graphics and login of http://www.paypal.com ? Damn that was hilarious when you stole all those people's money. Ha ha ha. Information wants to be free!
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:40 · Score: 0

Oh, shit. Copying a website and changing it in small ways for silly result. That wouldn't be something called misrepresentaion would it? I've heard of misrepresentaion. It sounds bad. I hope it's outlawed. I'm going to write my Congressperson asking for a new division of the police force especially designed to bust into people's houses looking for this thing called misrepresentation. I mean, a company could actually lose PROFIT over a thing like this!
-- ...in the Fox News-Wall Street Journal editorial page-Rush Limbaugh echo chamber.--Martin Peretz, New Repubic
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 06:49 · Score: 2

You, sir, have just found the root password to the first ammendment. I commend you. Let's outlaw parody just in case someone uses it for misrepresentation. In fact, hell, outlaw the internet too--I mean people use that for kiddie porn.
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Psion · 2003-01-01 07:10 · Score: 2

Perhaps you could better understand the situation if someone put up the Henry V .009 Child Pornography Photo Archive Web Site. I'm sure everyone who visited would understand that you wouldn't possibly do anything like this and that it must therefore be parody itself! Or would it be something else...?
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:18 · Score: 0

Ummm no, not really.

What makes this parody is the fact that they didn't commit any crime (like posting childporn) in Dow's name.

What they DID was make a statement in the companies name that was so honest that anyone with two braincells should have realized that there was no way Dow would have said that.

Okay, fuckedcompany.com fell for it but then we're talking about PUD here.
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 07:23 · Score: 2

The government should go after the people who put up a kiddie porn site, of course. As long as they can do it without stepping on my rights. On the other hand, the government would do more damage than good attempting to regulate misrepresentation. Who gets to decide what crosses the line and what doesn't? In most cases, the government is not competant to decide it. Outright fraud is slightly different, but that violates other laws.
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by herbierobinson · 2003-01-01 21:41 · Score: 2

But they didn't try to claim the web site was their own. They tried to make people think it was DOW's! Other posters have already pointed out that the Yes Men's descriptions of DOW's response to the Bhopal disaster appear to be much more accurate than DOW's own public statements.

--
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 07:06 · Score: 0

They would be fine if they put a disclaimer on the page somewhere that says "this is a parody". They didn't, because their hatred for DOW chemical led them to intentionally try to trick people into thinking that DOW chemical said the things in the press release. If you don't see how this is wrong, please send me your real name and address so I can start sending fraudulent letters to people signed with your name and company logo.

I don't give a damn about DOW's profits, but I do think that they deserve to be afforded the same rights you and I possess.
Re:The Yes Men could be at fault by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-02 08:04 · Score: 2

Corporations deserve the same rights as human beings?

But there is another problem with your reasoning. Where is the bright line between parody and misrepresentation? If there is only a gray area, you are going to have to wind up banning otherwise legal speech in order to protect Dow. That's not worth it.

no dow = no computer. no greenpeace = better world by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:09 · Score: -1, Flamebait

Without dow, you freaks wouldnt have computers, PDAs, cars, and blowup dolls.

Greenpeace does NOTHING good. Only thing Greenpeace does is suck the dick of PETA. PETA, the other company.

Shut the hell up, this all happened years ago. 20,000 people died. More thans that will die in car accidents today. I dont see the tree hugging bastards trying to make the roads safer.

I hate hippies

Potential Profits by Alien54 · 2003-01-01 06:10 · Score: 1

Another example of the corporate concern with possible and potential profits taking precicence over any sense of ethics.

the mafioso mentality continues to spread. It must be nice as a stock holder, to have someone like this, who will make money for you without any heavy duty ethical pondering on you part.

Flush the toilet before it backs up ..... oops, too late.

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"

Didja all catch... by FFFish · 2003-01-01 06:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

...that bit about DOW suing the families that were destroyed/hurt by their Bhopal disaster?

A bunch of women marched on DOW HQ in India, delivering some of the contanimated soil and water from Bhopal. The protest lasted two peaceful hours. A single DOW employee greeted them.

DOW is now suing them for the equivalent of US$10K -- a helluva lot of money, particularly in India -- for "lost wages" because of the "work disruption."

Disgusting. First they slaughter hundreds and thousands of employees and families through cost-cutting, undertraining, and poor plant maintenance; then they refuse to clean up the mess; then they sue the very people who were hurt by the accident.

Sometimes it would be e'er so nice to be able to punish CEOs as if they'd committed the crimes themselves.

--

--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.

Re:Didja all catch... by Lysol · 2003-01-01 06:25 · Score: 2

Yah, and for compensation for the deaths, UC only paid out around $300-$400 each. Beyond sad.

Of course, you have to wonder what part the Indian govt. had to do with all this. I mean, they closed the case in '91 or whenever it was and stated that they thought it was fair.

Dow's corporate free speech thing is a load of garbage. However, one has to wonder, even tho they aren't the best, they bought someone else that did something and i'm not sure how i feel about them having to do deal with it. On the other hand, it only seems natural and a way to make them look like they really do care if they went in and pre-emptively made things better..

But of course, they is rarely the case for any global entity.
Re:Didja all catch... by j3110 · 2003-01-01 06:58 · Score: 2

You can, and it doesn't have to be an American citizen that got it either. As long as the board members are in the US, you can bring them up on charges. They'll pin them on an Indian exec, but the company will have to hold it's head in shame from the publicity. That's why there are conspiracy crimes (conspiracy to commit murder etc.) and accessory crimes (even if they know what would happen, they are accessories since they have the power to stop it).

--
Karma Clown
Re:Didja all catch... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:00 · Score: 0

I think the funny thing is that the world press went along with this eco-terrorist attack against the chemical industry. The evidence of sabotage, while quite clear, was supressed.
The Bhopal plant was creating fertilizer. You know, the stuff used to prevent mass starvation by increasing food crops. However, mass starvation is a wonderfull tool for maintining power.
Now let the slashtards reply.
Re:Didja all catch... by MrResistor · 2003-01-01 07:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

When Dow bought UC, they bought their messes too, just like if you marry someone with bad credit.

Interesting point about the Indian government, though.

--
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Re:Didja all catch... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:21 · Score: 0

Any links to your statement of sabotage? It's the first time I heard about it.

But even IF it was Sabotage the fact remains that the soil got contaminated and that people died. Dow (or UC) should have cleaned up the mess and stuck the bill to whoever did the sabotage (if there was one).
Re:Didja all catch... by sedmonds · 2003-01-01 07:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

1> Union Carbide plant suffers catastrophic incident, resulting in hundreds and thousands of injuries to employees and families.

2> Dow Chemical purchases Union Carbide plant.

3> Dow Chemical CEO should pe bunished for the accident.

What are you smoking to get that conclusion from the first two events?

Yes, its horrible that people were injured and died as a result of the industrial accident. Its pretty rotten to sue the victims and their families for disrupting work.

Its disturbing that idiots will personal harm to the officers and representatives of Dow for an accident which occured at a plant BEFORE THEY OWNED IT.

Even so, holding a CEO responsible for every occurance involving every job site is insane. In cases where the CEO had prior knowledge, sure, but making the assumption that every officer of every company knows every detail of business in a company employing tens of thousands worldwide is laughable.

It may look a lot nicer on your 5 o'clock news to see corporate officer Joe hauled away in handcuffs, but it doesn't satisfy justice pinning everything on just the officers. Justice is satisfied by the prosecution of the offenders. Those who commited crimes, or exercised -unreasonable- negligence.
Re:Didja all catch... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:52 · Score: 0

I'm glad some people are actually reading the news behind this and rather than getting all involved with the lawyer speak and usual slashdotter obession with DMCA, actually getting annoyed about this companies disgracefull actions.
One thing you should all be doing if this shocks you is emailing your finance guys at work and asking them to check that your pension fund doesnt invest in this company, and if you cant be bothered to do that, its no good complaining about the excesses of corporate america...
Re:Didja all catch... by FFFish · 2003-01-01 08:12 · Score: 2

Good plan. Mod this feller up!

--

--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Re:Didja all catch... by j+h+woodyatt · 2003-01-01 09:14 · Score: 1

| 1> Union Carbide plant suffers catastrophic incident, resulting in
| hundreds and thousands of injuries to employees and families.
|
| 2> Dow Chemical purchases Union Carbide plant.
|
| 3> Dow Chemical CEO should pe bunished for the accident.
|
| What are you smoking to get that conclusion from the first two events?

DOW Chemical didn't just purchase the plant. They purchased the entire company- including all its liabilities as well as its assets.

Is this whole "corporate enterprise" thing a new concept to you?

--

--
jhw
Re:Didja all catch... by HiThere · 2003-01-01 09:20 · Score: 2

Who sued the survivors because they protested?

That b*d should be hung by his feet. Low over an anthill.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Didja all catch... by kaphka · 2003-01-01 09:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

...that bit about DOW suing the families that were destroyed/hurt by their Bhopal disaster?
How do we know that that story isn't another "parody"? I can find no reference to it outside of Greenpeace (which is not high on my list of reliable news sources,) and it seems even more absurd than The Yes Men's original forged press release.

Half of the "informative" posts on this article cite anti-Dow hoaxes as "facts," and use them to justify their opposition to Dow's attempts to suppress hoaxes. If that doesn't prove libel, I don't know what could.

(Having said that, I can't see what any of this has to do with the DMCA. But hey, libel cases are expensive. Why bother suing, when you can just say the magic words and make any website dissappear?)

--
MSK
Re:Didja all catch... by sedmonds · 2003-01-01 10:56 · Score: 1

So by your thinking then any industrial accident would result in that company never being sold again? Who would purchase a company if doing so meant that it was legally their fault the accident happened in the first place? And would these companies never again have a CEO? Of course not, thats just plain stupid.

If Joe Blow became the CEO of Ford tomorrow, would that mean that he should be prosecuted for exploding pinto's? Of course not, thats fucking ridiculus. Joe blow had nothing to do with any phase of the exploding pinto. It happened before he became CEO.

If Chrysler purchased Ford tomorrow, should Jurgen E Schrempp be personally prosecuted, either criminally or civilly, for the exploding pinto's? Of course not, no sane human being would claim he should.

So why is it you seem to think that the CEO of Dow should be punished for an accident which occured before Dow purchased Union Carbide? I truly don't understand how he had any involvement whatsoever in the incident.

Yes, Dow did sign on for the liabilities of the former Union Carbide. But that does absolutely nothing for justifying why the CEO of Dow should be held personally responsible for the Union Carbide accident.
Re:Didja all catch... by snol · 2003-01-01 13:15 · Score: 1

Perhaps what you're missing is that it's rare for ANY person to be civilly or criminally prosecuted for the actions of a corporation. The disincentive for corporations to do illegal things is almost always a fine or lawsuit against the corporation itself - part of the miracle called "limited liability." Owners' (shareholders') and only consequence when their company behaves badly is that their stock is devalued; CEOs stand to lose their jobs if the consequences to the shareholders are bad enough.

I believe what the original poster was getting at was that this system of punishment for misbehaving corporations is often an ineffective deterrent to bad behavior; it would be better if those responsible for the bad decisions were punished as individuals more often.

btw I don't think he specifically said it was the CEO of Dow that should be punished.
Re:Didja all catch... by FFFish · 2003-01-01 13:44 · Score: 2

Indeed, I meant the CEO of UC should be in the clink. But, noooo, the bastard got away with mass murder.

--

--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Re:Didja all catch... by Mike+A. · 2003-01-01 14:08 · Score: 1

Mass manslaughter, actually. Murder requires the specific intent to kill - negligence that results in death is called manslaughter.

--

--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
Re:Didja all catch... by Black+Copter+Control · 2003-01-01 14:46 · Score: 2

3> Dow Chemical CEO should pe bunished for the accident.
What are you smoking to get that conclusion from the first two events?
Yes, its horrible that people were injured and died as a result of the industrial accident. Its pretty rotten to sue the victims and their families for disrupting work......
First of all: The victims didn't disrupt work .. other than for the one employee who came out to talk to them (his choice).
It's not the accident that I consider Dow to be responsible for: It's their continuing refusal to scoop the poo resulting from their industrial 'accident'. People are still dying by the chemicals released at Bhopal. Dow inherited responsibility for those continuing deaths. In suing the survivers, they are now wilfully adding to the woes of the victims of Bhopal.
I am not my dog, but if my dog dumps shit on my neighbour's property, and I refuse to pick it up, then I'm the one who's going to get the ticket, not my dog.
Union Carbide refused to clean up their mess. Dow, in merging with UC, also absorbed UC's responsibility. The CEO of Dow gets millions of dollars a year to take responsibility for the actions of the company. It's time for him to earn his keep.

--
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Re:Didja all catch... by code+shady · 2003-01-01 15:43 · Score: 1

You must not
have looked very hard.

The bhopal disater is a well documented, widley known example of a horrible environmental disater.
--

--
Look out honey cause I'm usin' technology
Ain't got time to make no apologies
Re:Didja all catch... by TheMidget · 2003-01-02 00:22 · Score: 1

(Having said that, I can't see what any of this has to do with the DMCA. But hey, libel cases are expensive. Why bother suing, when you can just say the magic words and make any website dissappear?)
Next hoax: send a fake DMCA letter to the provider of the real dow site. If spun right, this could be mucho fun (just pretend that dow-chemical.com is the real site, and dow is the forgery...). Caution: Use an open proxy when pulling this off. Indeed impersonating a lawyer is a serious crime in most jurisdictions...

Something is up here... by BesigedB · 2003-01-01 06:14 · Score: 1

If I posted this on my isp's webspace I would be the one to get in shit, not the ISP so forcing them to close down.

Its another case of a big company killing off an enemy/rival who cannt fight back, and the world will be worse for it.

Re:Something is up here... by GigsVT · 2003-01-01 07:42 · Score: 1

You apparently haven't read the DMCA. If your ISP gets a DMCA complaint, to avoid liability, they must take your site down, until you respond to the complaint.

The anti-circumvention clause isn't the only part people don't like about the DMCA.

--
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.

"peaceful protest" by eyeball · 2003-01-01 06:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

... of 200 women survivors from Bhopal delivered toxic waste from the abandoned Carbide factory back to Dow's Indian headquarters in Bombay...

From reading between the lines of the article, it appears that they are suing the protesters, and not all the survivors, for what sounds like an irresponsible protest rather than a peaceful one. If someone showed up at my company's door with deadly chemicals, we'd have to shut the place down for security reasons, at a cost to the business.

Dow may be wrong or negligent in compensating the survivors, but protesters causing a business to loose money to gain their attention or try and get them to change their action is about as effective as spanking a child when they don't eat their peas. They're just going to grow up hating those that spank them.

--

_______
2B1ASK1

Re:"peaceful protest" by phorm · 2003-01-01 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

If someone showed up at my company's door with deadly chemicals, we'd have to shut the place down for security reasons, at a cost to the business.

However, Dow is dumping those same chemicals on somebody else's doorstep. They're just being nice enough to return them for analysis...
Re:"peaceful protest" by bheerssen · 2003-01-01 07:01 · Score: 1

You shouldn't anthropomorphize corporations so much. It only encourages them ;)

But seriously, what other way is there to get a corporation's attention? Corporations, by their very nature, are only interested in making money. Sometimes by every means available, however nefarious, as is the case regarding Union Carbide in Bhopal. In order to effect social justice and corporate responsibilty, the corporation must be penalized fiscally or they will never change. The profit motive is lacking otherwise. And that, sadly, is the only motive that corporations respond to.

--
(Score: -1, Stupid)
Re:"peaceful protest" by nsuccorso · 2003-01-01 08:50 · Score: 0

Dow may be wrong or negligent in compensating the survivors, but protesters causing a business to loose money to gain their attention or try and get them to change their action is about as effective as spanking a child when they don't eat their peas.

Actually, they were completely unsuccessfuly at getting the business to loose money from their coffers to clean up the mess caused by Union Carbide. The money remained securely where it was before. Therefore, the basis for you criticism seems to be voided!
Re:"peaceful protest" by eyeball · 2003-01-01 09:54 · Score: 1

However, Dow is dumping those same chemicals on somebody else's doorstep. They're just being nice enough to return them for analysis...

My mom always taught me that two wrongs don't make a right.

--

_______
2B1ASK1
Re:"peaceful protest" by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:57 · Score: 0

What would you do if (this is conjecture):

(1) A chemical comapny turns up at your HOME.
(2) A chemical company dumps chemical waste in your GARDEN, STREET, LIVING ROOM, BEDROOM and DRINKING WATER (if that seems unrealistic, think of the fumes from a chemical spill - you can't escape).
(3) You have nowhere else to go, you are in abject poverty. You breathe the fumes for several days trying to salvage your life's posessions and work out what's going on.
(4) Everyone else living under your roof dies from chemical poisoning, somehow you survive but are crippled for live - say blind in one eye, and your lungs don't work so well now, it hurts to stand and you occasionally cough up blood.

? What would you do now ?

Get a lawyer? You don't have the money.

Scream blue murder to the press? They're not interested, being on the payroll of the corporation.

Something tells me you're living in such a state of isolation that you don't understand the magnitude of the events that took place.

Turning up on the doorstep of the chemical company (with some of those chemicals) would just about be the only thing you *could* do.

Would you like fries with your Big Mac?
Re:"peaceful protest" by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:10 · Score: 0

But then wouldn't the sit-ins during the civil rights era also be considered irresponsible protests? What about the bus boycotts?
Re:"peaceful protest" by Siriaan · 2003-01-01 10:20 · Score: 1

Exactly how did those deadly chemicals come about in the first place? We're not talking about some disgruntled employee who got fired for stealing office stationery dumping some industrial weedkiller on the front lawn, these peopl have had their live completely ruined by the negligence and sheer inhumanity of a company that refuses to take responsibility for their own messes. By acknowledging that the soil is contaminated and deadly, they also confound their guilt by tacitly admitting that there genuinely has been a ecological disaster.

As for other courses of action, what the hell else are these people supposed to do? Likely they have absolutely no money to fight a legal battle and are up against a MASSIVE corporation who is probably quite adept at silencing negative publicity.

How dare you suggest that this is irresponsible. A company losing some business compared to HUNDREDS of people losing their lives? What choice do these people have?
Re:"peaceful protest" by Blue+Stone · 2003-01-01 10:59 · Score: 1

"If someone showed up at my company's door with deadly chemicals, we'd have to shut the place down for security reasons, at a cost to the business."

What if they were your deadly chemicals and they were just returning your property to you, because you left it on their doorstep, and...well, didn't really give a fuck?

I can only describe this action by Dow, as the act of cunts. I have nothing but contempt for them.

--
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
Re:"peaceful protest" by mgblst · 2003-01-01 15:21 · Score: 2

From reading between the lines of the article, it appears that they are suing the protesters, and not all the survivors, for what sounds like an irresponsible protest rather than a peaceful one. If someone showed up at my company's door with deadly chemicals, we'd have to shut the place down for security reasons, at a cost to the business.

You can't see the irony in this. So you would have to shut your business down for security reasons. What about the people whose land is filled with these chemicals, what the fuck do they shut down, there houses?

Who the fuck modded this post up, or has Dow somehow taken over this website too!
Re:"peaceful protest" by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 16:42 · Score: 2

I don't get it. Dow dumps chemicals, they get sued by the people they've harmed. Those people turn around and dump contaminated soil on Dow, and they shouldn't be sued?

Sorry, being poor doesn't mean you get to torture the rich.
Re:"peaceful protest" by sg_oneill · 2003-01-01 19:28 · Score: 2

I can only describe this action by Dow, as the act of c*nts. I have nothing but contempt for them.

Bravo. While I normally would avoid such a word, strangely this is really the only way to honestly describe it.

Dow chemicals really are c*nts. They chose to be. I say someone shut THEM down.

Hey isn't it amazing , in a few countries in the world, you can get brutally executed for killing people. But not if your a corporation, even if you cop 800 victims.

--
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Re:"peaceful protest" by mgblst · 2003-01-02 02:00 · Score: 2

Yeah, they both did exactly the same thing, didn't they. The protestors were trying to make a point, that although Dow was "beaten", there are huge tracks of land still unusable, so they dump a small amount of the poisoned land on Dow. They did not create the poisoned land, in fact, they were really just returning Dow's chemicals to Dow.

Can you not see the difference, or are you being deliberatly obtuse?

Perhaps Dow should be forced to clean up the mess, no matter how much money it costs, and no matter how much they try to buy off the government.
Re:"peaceful protest" by tanner_andrews · 2003-01-02 04:48 · Score: 1

...they are suing the protesters, and not all the survivors, for what sounds like an irresponsible protest rather than a peaceful one. If someone showed up at my company's door with deadly chemicals, we'd have to shut the place down for security reasons, at a cost to the business.

Well said.!
If I dump poison in your back yard, and you bring some of the contaminated soil back to my office, I am certainly damaged in that my business is disrupted. I would reasonably expect my legal staff to attempt to recover from you. It's what the legal staff does, after all.
However, there may be a problem in quantifying the damage. Since the business did not shut down, and only one employee even came out to see the protest, and that only for a short time, it is going to be rather a stretch to show damages in of $10,000.

--
Tilt at windmills. Occasionally one will fall over out of sheer surprise.

I am truly disgusted by theolein · 2003-01-01 06:16 · Score: 2

Dow chemical suing people who have a yearly income of $1000 for $10000 after the tragedy in Bhopal (which still hasn't been cleaned up) is so low and disgusting that one wonders what kind of snarling inhuman lunatics run that company.

It is this kind of thing that breeds terrorists and whips up frenzy amongst people who have no recourse to medical care, much less fat corporate lawyers.

I can't carry on because I am absolutely speechless with disgust at those fucking bastards.

Re:I am truly disgusted by Artifex · 2003-01-01 07:44 · Score: 2

Dow chemical suing people who have a yearly income of $1000 for $10000 after the tragedy in Bhopal (which still hasn't been cleaned up) is so low and disgusting that one wonders what kind of snarling inhuman lunatics run that company.

Greenpeace has their own spin, but. as has been stated by others here, Dow probably had to spend money to clean up the chemicals the protestors brought with them, etc.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Did those protestors think about how they were spreading the environmental impact by collecting chemicals from one location and potentially contaminating another? Or just about what good press they would get?

I can't carry on because I am absolutely speechless with disgust at those fucking bastards.

Which ones? The ones who, having made a mistake, half-assedly tried to clean it up and then abandoned their work, or the ones deliberately trying to cause (or at least threaten) environmental harm not only to the culprit but to anyone nearby?

I'm disgusted by Greenpeace's role in this. They've figuratively gone from trying to block Japanese whalers to dragging whale carcasses into a city and leaving them in front of a building where the whalers have offices, not caring that it's a public street and others would have to clean up their mess.

The protesters' attitudes might have been summarized by "they messed up our backyard, let's mess up theirs," but where does that lead, except to two messed up backyards?

--
Get off my launchpad!
Re:I am truly disgusted by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:06 · Score: 0

Dow is suing the protestors, who were members of greenpeace. They probably aren't even from the area. How do you know the income of the greenpeace protestors that they flew in just for that protest?
Re:I am truly disgusted by HiThere · 2003-01-01 10:04 · Score: 2

No. This is the kind of thing that causes ordinary people to feel that the terrorists are justified.

If you can't protest, what are your choices?

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Play a little devils advocate. by bm_luethke · 2003-01-01 06:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

First off there seems to have been a genreal uproar over dows "response" link, notice even the author raelised it was a parody and not in any way from dow, so you can't really fault dow for that peice (though the author says " While writing this submission I noticed that I have become a victim of The Yes Men and "Dow's" response is actually one of their parodies! :-) The story is still valid " - umm, dow didn't write it but lets hate them for it anyway? plenty of reason to hate dow but using a parody to hate them really weakens your position.)

I don't really know why the copyright violations in this are DMCA, it seems that normal copyright and trademarks cover thier violations, and yes they are violations. They were before DMCA and still will be if the DMCA is repealed. Though this should not have forced the whole site down, just the removeal of the copyrighted/trademarked images (hey, make some parody version of them - that's legal, but you can't just copy thier images and pretend to be them). Plus they quote cybersquatting statutes, they don't really seem to be cybersquatting (though using dow-chemical is iffy on copyright, had they used something like dow-chemical-sucks they would have easily been in the parody/protest stuff, but they seemed to have intentionally tried to fool someone into thinking they were dow to get them there).

And lastly "Dow has committed a reprehensible act, even for corporate America, by suing the survivors for ten years of income ($10,000) for protesting Dow's failure to clean up the mess." No, even according to the greenpeace article the survivors carried contamited material to thier site - that's not legal. While I greatly sympathise with them (and definatly think they got screwed royally) that doesn't give you the right to do that. As neither does being rich give someone the right to pollute with impunity. Much like in the US many protestors seem to think that the first amendment gives them the right to trasspass and destroy property, it doesn't - gather on public land all you want, don't block traffic and not only are you legal but you garner much more sympathy.

In sum, they have a very legitimate complaint, dow chemical did some VERY bad stuff and deserve to be raped in court, and never have and probably never will. But that doesn't give you the right (in the US, or apparently india either) to do whatever you feel (eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth isn't in the constitution). Plus my final complaint is that we have only heard one side, greenpeace isn't really know for being exactly unbiased and giving complete stories. There are much more effective ways to try and get something, they failed, now all they do is make people much less sympathetic overall to their cause (maybe it makes them feel better though).

--
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it

Re:Play a little devils advocate. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:22 · Score: 0

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forty six quadringentquattuortrigintillion, nine hundred ninety seven quadringenttretrigintilliard, one hundred ninety four quadringenttretrigintillion, one hundred twenty six quadringentdotrigintilliard, nine hundred twenty one quadringentdotrigintillion, two hundred eighty four quadringentuntrigintilliard, three hundred thirty six quadringentuntrigintillion, two hundred six quadringenttrigintilliard, four hundred sixty three quadringenttrigintillion, three hundred thirteen quadringentnovemvigintilliard, eight hundred fifty nine quadringentnovemvigintillion, five hundred thirty seven quadringentoctovigintilliard, five hundred seventy seven quadringentoctovigintillion, two hundred quadringentseptenvigintilliard, four hundred sixty two quadringentseptenvigintillion, four hundred forty two quadringentsexvigintilliard, twenty nine quadringentsexvigintillion, sixty four quadringentquinvigintilliard, six hundred eighty one quadringentquinvigintillion, three hundred twenty six quadringentquattuorvigintilliard, eighty seven quadringentquattuorvigintillion, five hundred fifty eight quadringenttrevigintilliard, two hundred fifty seven quadringenttrevigintillion, four hundred eighty eight quadringentdovigintilliard, four hundred seventy quadringentdovigintillion, four hundred eighty nine quadringentunvigintilliard, three hundred eighty four quadringentunvigintillion, two hundred forty three quadringentvigintilliard, nine hundred eighty nine quadringentvigintillion, two hundred seventy quadringentnovemdecilliard, two hundred thirty six quadringentnovemdecillion, eight hundred eighty four quadringentoctodecilliard, nine hundred seventy eight quadringentoctodecillion, six hundred forty three quadringentseptendecilliard, sixty three quadringentseptendecillion, ninety three quadringentsexdecilliard, four quadringentsexdecillion, four hundred twenty two quadringentquindecilliard, nine hundred thirty nine quadringentquindecillion, six hundred three quadringentquattuordecilliard, three hundred seventy quadringentquattuordecillion, ten quadringenttredecilliard, five hundred forty six quadringenttredecillion, five hundred ninety five quadringentdodecilliard, three hundred eighty six quadringentdodecillion, three hundred two quadringentundecilliard, nine quadringentundecillion, seventy three quadringentdecilliard, forty three quadringentdecillion, nine hundred forty four quadringentnovemtilliard, four hundred eighty two quadringentnovemtillion, two hundred two quadringentoctotilliard, five hundred fifty nine quadringentoctotillion, ninety seven quadringentseptentilliard, four hundred six quadringentseptentillion, seven hundred quadringentsextilliard, five hundred ninety seven quadringentsextillion, three hundred thirty quadringentquintilliard, five hundred seventy quadringentquintillion, seven hundred ninety nine quadringentquattuortilliard, five hundred seven quadringentquattuortillion, eight hundred thirty two quadringenttretilliard, nine hundred sixty three quadringenttretillion, one hundred thirty quadringentdotilliard, nine hundred thirty eight quadringentdotillion, seven hundred thirty nine quadringentuntilliard, eight hundred eighty five quadringentuntillion, eighty quadringentilliard, one hundred ninety eight quadringentillion, four hundred sixteen trecentnovemnonagintilliard, two hundred fifty eight trecentnovemnonagintillion, six hundred thirty five trecentoctononagintilliard, one hundred ninety four trecentoctononagintillion, five hundred twenty two trecentseptennonagintilliard, nine hundred thirteen trecentseptennonagintillion, forty two trecentsexnonagintilliard, five hundred sixty two trecentsexnonagintillion, nine hundred thirty six trecentquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy nine trecentquinnonagintillion, eight hundred fifty nine trecentquattuornonagintilliard, five hundred eighty seven trecentquattuornonagintillion, four hundred ninety five trecenttrenonagintilliard, seven hundred twenty one trecenttrenonagintillion, thirty one trecentdononagintilliard, one hundred seventy three trecentdononagintillion, seven hundred forty seven trecentunnonagintilliard, seven hundred ninety six trecentunnonagintillion, four hundred eighteen trecentnonagintilliard, eight hundred ninety five trecentnonagintillion, sixty trecentnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred one trecentnovemoctogintillion, nine hundred forty one trecentoctooctogintilliard, seven hundred seventeen trecentoctooctogintillion, five hundred six trecentseptenoctogintilliard, one trecentseptenoctogintillion, nine hundred thirty seven trecentsexoctogintilliard, one hundred fifty two trecentsexoctogintillion, four hundred thirty trecentquinoctogintilliard, thirty two trecentquinoctogintillion, three hundred sixty three trecentquattuoroctogintilliard, six hundred thirty one trecentquattuoroctogintillion, nine hundred thirty four trecenttreoctogintilliard, two hundred sixty five trecenttreoctogintillion, seven hundred ninety eight trecentdooctogintilliard, five hundred sixteen trecentdooctogintillion, two hundred thirty six trecentunoctogintilliard, forty seven trecentunoctogintillion, four hundred fifty one trecentoctogintilliard, two hundred nine trecentoctogintillion, eighty nine trecentnovemseptuagintilliard, eight hundred sixty four trecentnovemseptuagintillion, seven hundred seven trecentoctoseptuagintilliard, four hundred thirty trecentoctoseptuagintillion, seven hundred eighty trecentseptenseptuagintilliard, three hundred sixty two trecentseptenseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety eight trecentsexseptuagintilliard, three hundred seven trecentsexseptuagintillion, thirty eight trecentquinseptuagintilliard, one hundred ninety three trecentquinseptuagintillion, four hundred forty five trecentquattuorseptuagintilliard, four hundred eighty six trecentquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred ninety three trecenttreseptuagintilliard, seven hundred fifty six trecenttreseptuagintillion, six hundred forty seven trecentdoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred ninety one trecentdoseptuagintillion, eight hundred four trecentunseptuagintilliard, two hundred fifty eight trecentunseptuagintillion, seven hundred seventy five trecentseptuagintilliard, five hundred seventy four trecentseptuagintillion, nine hundred seventy three trecentnovemsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty three trecentnovemsexagintillion, nine hundred three trecentoctosexagintilliard, three hundred fifteen trecentoctosexagintillion, seven hundred thirty five trecentseptensexagintilliard, eighty two trecentseptensexagintillion, eight hundred ninety one trecentsexsexagintilliard, twenty nine trecentsexsexagintillion, three hundred ninety two trecentquinsexagintilliard, three hundred fifty nine trecentquinsexagintillion, three hundred fifty two trecentquattuorsexagintilliard, seven hundred fifty eight trecentquattuorsexagintillion, six hundred seventeen trecenttresexagintilliard, one hundred eighty five trecenttresexagintillion, nineteen trecentdosexagintilliard, nine hundred forty two trecentdosexagintillion, five hundred fifty four trecentunsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four trecentunsexagintillion, six hundred seventy one trecentsexagintilliard, eight hundred sixty one trecentsexagintillion, seventy four trecentnovemquinquagintilliard, five hundred forty eight trecentnovemquinquagintillion, seven hundred seventy two trecentoctoquinquagintilliard, four hundred thirty nine trecentoctoquinquagintillion, eight hundred eighty trecentseptenquinquagintilliard, seven hundred twenty nine trecentseptenquinquagintillion, six hundred six trecentsexquinquagintilliard, two hundred forty four trecentsexquinquagintillion, nine hundred eleven trecentquinquinquagintilliard, nine hundred forty trecentquinquinquagintillion, sixty six trecentquattuorquinquagintilliard, six hundred eighty trecentquattuorquinquagintillion, one hundred twelve trecenttrequinquagintilliard, eight hundred twenty three trecenttrequinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty four trecentdoquinquagintilliard, ninety five trecentdoquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixteen trecentunquinquagintilliard, four hundred fifty eight trecentunquinquagintillion, two hundred sixty one trecentquinquagintilliard, seven hundred sixty one trecentquinquagintillion, eight hundred sixty one trecentnovemquadragintilliard, seven hundred forty six trecentnovemquadragintillion, six hundred four trecentoctoquadragintilliard, thirty four trecentoctoquadragintillion, eight hundred two trecentseptenquadragintilliard, fifty six trecentseptenquadragintillion, four hundred sixty six trecentsexquadragintilliard, eight hundred twenty three trecentsexquadragintillion, one hundred forty three trecentquinquadragintilliard, seven hundred eighteen trecentquinquadragintillion, two hundred fifty five trecentquattuorquadragintilliard, four hundred ninety two trecentquattuorquadragintillion, seven hundred eighty four trecenttrequadragintilliard, seven hundred seventy nine trecenttrequadragintillion, three hundred eighty trecentdoquadragintilliard, nine hundred ninety one trecentdoquadragintillion, seven hundred forty nine trecentunquadragintilliard, five hundred eighty trecentunquadragintillion, two hundred fifty five trecentquadragintilliard, two hundred sixty three trecentquadragintillion, three hundred twenty three trecentnovemtrigintilliard, three hundred twenty six trecentnovemtrigintillion, five hundred thirty six trecentoctotrigintilliard, four hundred fifty seven trecentoctotrigintillion, seven hundred forty three trecentseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred ninety four trecentseptentrigintillion, one hundred fifty trecentsextrigintilliard, eight hundred forty eight trecentsextrigintillion, nine hundred fifty three trecentquintrigintilliard, nine hundred sixty nine trecentquintrigintillion, nine hundred two trecentquattuortrigintilliard, eight hundred eighteen trecentquattuortrigintillion, five hundred thirty trecenttretrigintilliard, fifty seven trecenttretrigintillion, eight hundred seventy trecentdotrigintilliard, eight hundred seventy six trecentdotrigintillion, two hundred twenty nine trecentuntrigintilliard, three hundred twenty nine trecentuntrigintillion, eight hundred three trecenttrigintilliard, three hundred thirty eight trecenttrigintillion, two hundred eighty five trecentnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred thirty five trecentnovemvigintillion, four hundred nineteen trecentoctovigintilliard, two hundred twenty eight trecentoctovigintillion, two hundred fifty nine trecentseptenvigintilliard, twenty two trecentseptenvigintillion, one hundred sixty nine trecentsexvigintilliard, six hundred two trecentsexvigintillion, six hundred sixty five trecentquinvigintilliard, five hundred thirty two trecentquinvigintillion, two hundred ten trecentquattuorvigintilliard, eight hundred thirty four trecentquattuorvigintillion, seven hundred eighty nine trecenttrevigintilliard, six hundred two trecenttrevigintillion, fifty one trecentdovigintilliard, six hundred eighty six trecentdovigintillion, five hundred forty six trecentunvigintilliard, eleven trecentunvigintillion, four hundred sixty six trecentvigintilliard, seven hundred thirty seven trecentvigintillion, nine hundred eighty one trecentnovemdecilliard, three hundred six trecentnovemdecillion, fifty six trecentoctodecilliard, two hundred forty seven trecentoctodecillion, four hundred eighty trecentseptendecilliard, fifty five trecentseptendecillion, seventy one trecentsexdecilliard, seven hundred eighteen trecentsexdecillion, two hundred fifty trecentquindecilliard, three hundred thirty three trecentquindecillion, seven hundred thirty seven trecentquattuordecilliard, five hundred two trecentquattuordecillion, two hundred sixty seven trecenttredecilliard, three hundred seven trecenttredecillion, three hundred forty four trecentdodecilliard, one hundred seventy eight trecentdodecillion, five hundred twelve trecentundecilliard, nine hundred fifty trecentundecillion, seven hundred thirty eight trecentdecilliard, five hundred ninety four trecentdecillion, three hundred thirty trecentnovemtilliard, six hundred eighty four trecentnovemtillion, three hundred forty trecentoctotilliard, eight hundred two trecentoctotillion, six hundred ninety eight trecentseptentilliard, two hundred twenty eight trecentseptentillion, nine hundred sixty three trecentsextilliard, nine hundred eighty six trecentsextillion, five hundred sixty two trecentquintilliard, seven hundred thirty two trecentquintillion, five hundred ninety seven trecentquattuortilliard, one hundred seventy five trecentquattuortillion, three hundred seventy two trecenttretilliard, eighty seven trecenttretillion, two hundred ninety five trecentdotilliard, six hundred forty nine trecentdotillion, seventy two trecentuntilliard, eight hundred thirty trecentuntillion, two hundred eighty nine trecentilliard, seven hundred forty nine trecentillion, seven hundred seventy one ducentnovemnonagintilliard, three hundred fifty eight ducentnovemnonagintillion, three hundred thirty ducentoctononagintilliard, eight hundred sixty seven ducentoctononagintillion, nine hundred fifty one ducentseptennonagintilliard, five hundred eight ducentseptennonagintillion, seven hundred ten ducentsexnonagintilliard, eight hundred fifty nine ducentsexnonagintillion, two hundred sixteen ducentquinnonagintilliard, seven hundred forty three ducentquinnonagintillion, two hundred eighteen ducentquattuornonagintilliard, five hundred twenty two ducentquattuornonagintillion, nine hundred eighteen ducenttrenonagintilliard, eight hundred eleven ducenttrenonagintillion, six hundred seventy ducentdononagintilliard, six hundred thirty seven ducentdononagintillion, four hundred forty eight ducentunnonagintilliard, four hundred ninety six ducentunnonagintillion, four hundred ninety eight ducentnonagintilliard, five hundred forty nine ducentnonagintillion, ninety four ducentnovemoctogintilliard, four hundred thirty ducentnovemoctogintillion, five hundred forty one ducentoctooctogintilliard, two hundred seventy seven ducentoctooctogintillion, four hundred forty four ducentseptenoctogintilliard, seventy nine ducentseptenoctogintillion, four hundred seven ducentsexoctogintilliard, nine hundred eighty nine ducentsexoctogintillion, five hundred thirty nine ducentquinoctogintilliard, eight hundred fifty seven ducentquinoctogintillion, four hundred sixty nine ducentquattuoroctogintilliard, four hundred fifty two ducentquattuoroctogintillion, seven hundred seventy two ducenttreoctogintilliard, one hundred thirty two ducenttreoctogintillion, one hundred sixty six ducentdooctogintilliard, five hundred eighty ducentdooctogintillion, eight hundred eighty five ducentunoctogintilliard, seven hundred fifty four ducentunoctogintillion, three hundred sixty ducentoctogintilliard, four hundred seventy seven ducentoctogintillion, four hundred eight ducentnovemseptuagintilliard, eight hundred forty two ducentnovemseptuagintillion, nine hundred thirteen ducentoctoseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty seven ducentoctoseptuagintillion, two hundred ninety two ducentseptenseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty eight ducentseptenseptuagintillion, six hundred ninety six ducentsexseptuagintilliard, eight hundred ninety seven ducentsexseptuagintillion, four hundred ninety six ducentquinseptuagintilliard, one hundred forty one ducentquinseptuagintillion, six hundred fourteen ducentquattuorseptuagintilliard, nine hundred nineteen ducentquattuorseptuagintillion, seven hundred thirty nine ducenttreseptuagintilliard, eight hundred forty five ducenttreseptuagintillion, four hundred thirty two ducentdoseptuagintilliard, eight hundred thirty five ducentdoseptuagintillion, eight hundred ninety four ducentunseptuagintilliard, three hundred twenty four ducentunseptuagintillion, four hundred seventy three ducentseptuagintilliard, six hundred one ducentseptuagintillion, three hundred eighty seven ducentnovemsexagintilliard, six hundred nine ducentnovemsexagintillion, six hundred forty three ducentoctosexagintilliard, seven hundred fifty ducentoctosexagintillion, five hundred fourteen ducentseptensexagintilliard, six hundred ninety nine ducentseptensexagintillion, two hundred fifteen ducentsexsexagintilliard, thirty two ducentsexsexagintillion, six hundred eighty three ducentquinsexagintilliard, seven hundred forty four ducentquinsexagintillion, five hundred twenty seven ducentquattuorsexagintilliard, seventy one ducentquattuorsexagintillion, seven hundred eighteen ducenttresexagintilliard, six hundred eighty four ducenttresexagintillion, ninety one ducentdosexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty two ducentdosexagintillion, one hundred seventy ducentunsexagintilliard, nine hundred forty eight ducentunsexagintillion, three hundred sixty nine ducentsexagintilliard, three hundred ninety six ducentsexagintillion, two hundred eighty ducentnovemquinquagintilliard, sixty one ducentnovemquinquagintillion, one hundred eighty four ducentoctoquinquagintilliard, five hundred ninety three ducentoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty six ducentseptenquinquagintilliard, one hundred forty three ducentseptenquinquagintillion, five hundred eighty nine ducentsexquinquagintilliard, sixty eight ducentsexquinquagintillion, eight hundred eleven ducentquinquinquagintilliard, one hundred ninety ducentquinquinquagintillion, two hundred fifty three ducentquattuorquinquagintilliard, one hundred one ducentquattuorquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy three ducenttrequinquagintilliard, five hundred ninety five ducenttrequinquagintillion, three hundred nineteen ducentdoquinquagintilliard, one hundred fifty six ducentdoquinquagintillion, one hundred seven ducentunquinquagintilliard, three hundred nineteen ducentunquinquagintillion, one hundred ninety six ducentquinquagintilliard, seventy one ducentquinquagintillion, one hundred fifty ducentnovemquadragintilliard, five hundred ninety eight ducentnovemquadragintillion, four hundred eighty eight ducentoctoquadragintilliard, seventy ducentoctoquadragintillion, twenty seven ducentseptenquadragintilliard, eighty eight ducentseptenquadragintillion, seven hundred five ducentsexquadragintilliard, eight hundred forty two ducentsexquadragintillion, seven hundred forty nine ducentquinquadragintilliard, six hundred five ducentquinquadragintillion, two hundred three ducentquattuorquadragintilliard, sixty three ducentquattuorquadragintillion, one hundred ninety four ducenttrequadragintilliard, one hundred ninety one ducenttrequadragintillion, one hundred sixty six ducentdoquadragintilliard, nine hundred twenty two ducentdoquadragintillion, one hundred six ducentunquadragintilliard, one hundred seventy six ducentunquadragintillion, one hundred fifty seven ducentquadragintilliard, six hundred nine ducentquadragintillion, three hundred sixty seven ducentnovemtrigintilliard, two hundred forty one ducentnovemtrigintillion, nine hundred forty eight ducentoctotrigintilliard, one hundred sixty ducentoctotrigintillion, six hundred twenty five ducentseptentrigintilliard, nine hundred eighty nine ducentseptentrigintillion, thirty two ducentsextrigintilliard, one hundred twenty seven ducentsextrigintillion, nine hundred eighty four ducentquintrigintilliard, seven hundred forty eight ducentquintrigintillion, eighty one ducentquattuortrigintilliard, seventy five ducentquattuortrigintillion, three hundred twenty four ducenttretrigintilliard, three hundred eighty two ducenttretrigintillion, six hundred thirty two ducentdotrigintilliard, ninety three ducentdotrigintillion, nine hundred thirteen ducentuntrigintilliard, seven hundred ninety six ducentuntrigintillion, four hundred forty four ducenttrigintilliard, six hundred sixty five ducenttrigintillion, seven hundred ducentnovemvigintilliard, six hundred one ducentnovemvigintillion, three hundred ninety one ducentoctovigintilliard, two hundred seventy eight ducentoctovigintillion, three hundred sixty ducentseptenvigintilliard, three hundred twenty three ducentseptenvigintillion, two ducentsexvigintilliard, two hundred sixty seven ducentsexvigintillion, four hundred thirty four ducentquinvigintilliard, two hundred ninety five ducentquinvigintillion, one hundred ninety four ducentquattuorvigintilliard, three hundred twenty five ducentquattuorvigintillion, six hundred seven ducenttrevigintilliard, two hundred eighty ducenttrevigintillion, six hundred sixty one ducentdovigintilliard, two hundred sixty ducentdovigintillion, one hundred nineteen ducentunvigintilliard, three hundred seventy eight ducentunvigintillion, seven hundred nineteen ducentvigintilliard, four hundred five ducentvigintillion, one hundred fifty one ducentnovemdecilliard, four hundred ninety seven ducentnovemdecillion, five hundred fifty five ducentoctodecilliard, one hundred eighty seven ducentoctodecillion, five hundred forty nine ducentseptendecilliard, two hundred fifty two ducentseptendecillion, one hundred thirty four ducentsexdecilliard, two hundred sixty four ducentsexdecillion, three hundred ninety four ducentquindecilliard, six hundred forty five ducentquindecillion, nine hundred sixty three ducentquattuordecilliard, eight hundred fifty three ducentquattuordecillion, nine hundred sixty four ducenttredecilliard, nine hundred thirteen ducenttredecillion, three hundred nine ducentdodecilliard, six hundred ninety seven ducentdodecillion, seven hundred seventy six ducentundecilliard, five hundred thirty three ducentundecillion, three hundred twenty nine ducentdecilliard, four hundred one ducentdecillion, eight hundred twenty two ducentnovemtilliard, one hundred fifty eight ducentnovemtillion, three ducentoctotilliard, one hundred eighty two ducentoctotillion, eight hundred eighty nine ducentseptentilliard, two hundred seventy eight ducentseptentillion, seventy two ducentsextilliard, three hundred sixty eight ducentsextillion, six hundred two ducentquintilliard, one hundred twenty eight ducentquintillion, nine hundred eighty two ducentquattuortilliard, seven hundred ten ducentquattuortillion, three hundred six ducenttretilliard, six hundred eighteen ducenttretillion, one hundred fifteen ducentdotilliard, one hundred eighteen ducentdotillion, nine hundred sixty four ducentuntilliard, one hundred thirty one ducentuntillion, eight hundred ninety three ducentilliard, six hundred fifty seven ducentillion, eight hundred forty five centnovemnonagintilliard, four hundred centnovemnonagintillion, two hundred ninety six centoctononagintilliard, eight hundred sixty centoctononagintillion, twelve centseptennonagintilliard, four hundred twenty centseptennonagintillion, three hundred ninety one centsexnonagintilliard, three hundred seventy six centsexnonagintillion, nine hundred sixty four centquinnonagintilliard, six hundred seventy centquinnonagintillion, one hundred eighty three centquattuornonagintilliard, nine hundred eighty three centquattuornonagintillion, five hundred ninety four centtrenonagintilliard, nine hundred fifty four centtrenonagintillion, one hundred twelve centdononagintilliard, four hundred eighty four centdononagintillion, five hundred sixty five centunnonagintilliard, five hundred ninety seven centunnonagintillion, three hundred twelve centnonagintilliard, four hundred sixty centnonagintillion, seven hundred thirty seven centnovemoctogintilliard, seven hundred ninety eight centnovemoctogintillion, seven hundred seventy seven centoctooctogintilliard, ninety two centoctooctogintillion, seventy one centseptenoctogintilliard, seven hundred six centseptenoctogintillion, seven hundred ten centsexoctogintilliard, eight hundred twenty four centsexoctogintillion, five hundred three centquinoctogintilliard, seven hundred seven centquinoctogintillion, four hundred fifty seven centquattuoroctogintilliard, two hundred twenty centquattuoroctogintillion, one hundred fifty five centtreoctogintilliard, fifteen centtreoctogintillion, eight hundred ninety nine centdooctogintilliard, five hundred ninety one centdooctogintillion, seven hundred sixty six centunoctogintilliard, two hundred forty four centunoctogintillion, nine hundred fifty seven centoctogintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight centoctogintillion, six centnovemseptuagintilliard, eight hundred two centnovemseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty two centoctoseptuagintilliard, nine hundred seventy six centoctoseptuagintillion, six hundred seventy three centseptenseptuagintilliard, nine hundred twenty centseptenseptuagintillion, three hundred ninety two centsexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred ninety five centsexseptuagintillion, four hundred ten centquinseptuagintilliard, one hundred sixty four centquinseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty four centquattuorseptuagintilliard, seven hundred seventy six centquattuorseptuagintillion, four hundred forty five centtreseptuagintilliard, six hundred seventy one centtreseptuagintillion, two hundred twenty two centdoseptuagintilliard, one hundred forty nine centdoseptuagintillion, eight hundred three centunseptuagintilliard, six hundred fifty seven centunseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty seven centseptuagintilliard, seven hundred eight centseptuagintillion, four hundred twelve centnovemsexagintilliard, nine hundred twenty five centnovemsexagintillion, five hundred fifty five centoctosexagintilliard, five hundred forty two centoctosexagintillion, eight hundred seventeen centseptensexagintilliard, forty five centseptensexagintillion, five hundred seventy two centsexsexagintilliard, four hundred thirty centsexsexagintillion, eight hundred forty six centquinsexagintilliard, three hundred eighty nine centquinsexagintillion, nine hundred eighty eight centquattuorsexagintilliard, one hundred twenty nine centquattuorsexagintillion, nine hundred sixty centtresexagintilliard, five hundred nineteen centtresexagintillion, two hundred twenty seven centdosexagintilliard, three hundred thirteen centdosexagintillion, nine hundred eighty seven centunsexagintilliard, two hundred ninety one centunsexagintillion, two hundred centsexagintilliard, nine hundred two centsexagintillion, sixty centnovemquinquagintilliard, eight hundred eighty two centnovemquinquagintillion, sixty centoctoquinquagintilliard, seven hundred thirty three centoctoquinquagintillion, seven hundred sixty two centseptenquinquagintilliard, seventy five centseptenquinquagintillion, eight hundred ninety two centsexquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety nine centsexquinquagintillion, four hundred seventy three centquinquinquagintilliard, six hundred sixty six centquinquinquagintillion, four hundred five centquattuorquinquagintilliard, eight hundred ninety seven centquattuorquinquagintillion, four hundred twenty seven centtrequinquagintilliard, thirty five centtrequinquagintillion, eight hundred eleven centdoquinquagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six centdoquinquagintillion, eight hundred seventy nine centunquinquagintilliard, eight hundred seventy five centunquinquagintillion, six hundred ninety four centquinquagintilliard, three hundred fifteen centquinquagintillion, seventy eight centnovemquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty four centnovemquadragintillion, four hundred twenty centoctoquadragintilliard, fifty five centoctoquadragintillion, six hundred three centseptenquadragintilliard, four hundred sixty nine centseptenquadragintillion, six hundred twenty five centsexquadragintilliard, three hundred nine centsexquadragintillion, three hundred ninety nine centquinquadragintilliard, six hundred fifty three centquinquadragintillion, nine hundred fifty five centquattuorquadragintilliard, nine hundred thirty two centquattuorquadragintillion, three hundred ten centtrequadragintilliard, four hundred sixty six centtrequadragintillion, four hundred thirty centdoquadragintilliard, thirty nine centdoquadragintillion, one hundred forty six centunquadragintilliard, four hundred sixty five centunquadragintillion, eight hundred five centquadragintilliard, four hundred fifty two centquadragintillion, nine hundred sixty five centnovemtrigintilliard, fourteen centnovemtrigintillion, forty centoctotrigintilliard, nineteen centoctotrigintillion, four hundred twenty three centseptentrigintilliard, eight hundred ninety seven centseptentrigintillion, five hundred fifty two centsextrigintilliard, six hundred seventy five centsextrigintillion, five hundred thirty four centquintrigintilliard, seven hundred sixty eight centquintrigintillion, two hundred forty eight centquattuortrigintilliard, six hundred twenty four centquattuortrigintillion, six hundred thirty one centtretrigintilliard, nine hundred fifty one centtretrigintillion, four hundred thirty one centdotrigintilliard, four hundred ninety three centdotrigintillion, one hundred eighty eight centuntrigintilliard, one hundred seventy centuntrigintillion, nine hundred five centtrigintilliard, nine hundred seventy two centtrigintillion, five hundred eighty eight centnovemvigintilliard, seven hundred eighty centnovemvigintillion, one hundred eleven centoctovigintilliard, eight hundred fifty centoctovigintillion, two hundred eighty one centseptenvigintilliard, one hundred ninety centseptenvigintillion, five hundred fifty nine centsexvigintilliard, seventy three centsexvigintillion, six hundred seventy seven centquinvigintilliard, seven hundred seventy one centquinvigintillion, one hundred eighty seven centquattuorvigintilliard, four hundred thirty two centquattuorvigintillion, eight hundred fourteen centtrevigintilliard, eighty eight centtrevigintillion, six hundred seventy eight centdovigintilliard, six hundred seventy four centdovigintillion, two hundred eighty six centunvigintilliard, three hundred two centunvigintillion, one hundred eight centvigintilliard, two hundred seventy five centvigintillion, one hundred forty nine centnovemdecilliard, two hundred fifty eight centnovemdecillion, four hundred seventy seven centoctodecilliard, one hundred one centoctodecillion, two hundred ninety six centseptendecilliard, four hundred fifty one centseptendecillion, eight hundred thirty three centsexdecilliard, six hundred fifty one centsexdecillion, nine hundred seventy nine centquindecilliard, seven hundred seventeen centquindecillion, three hundred seventy five centquattuordecilliard, one hundred seventy centquattuordecillion, nine hundred centtredecilliard, five hundred five centtredecillion, six hundred seventy three centdodecilliard, six hundred forty five centdodecillion, nine hundred sixty four centundecilliard, six hundred ninety six centundecillion, three hundred fifty five centdecilliard, three hundred thirty one centdecillion, three hundred sixty nine centnovemtilliard, eight hundred nineteen centnovemtillion, two hundred ninety six centoctotilliard, two hundred sixty seven centseptentilliard, three hundred eighty nine centseptentillion, five hundred eighty three centsextilliard, two hundred eighty nine centsextillion, two hundred ninety nine centquintilliard, one hundred twenty six centquintillion, seven hundred thirty eight centquattuortilliard, three hundred forty five centquattuortillion, seven hundred twenty six centtretilliard, nine hundred eighty centtretillion, three hundred twenty five centdotilliard, nine hundred ninety eight centdotillion, nine hundred fifty five centuntilliard, nine hundred ninety seven centuntillion, five hundred one centilliard, one hundred seventy six centillion, six hundred sixty four novemnonagintilliard, two hundred one novemnonagintillion, forty two octononagintilliard, eight hundred eighty eight octononagintillion, five hundred forty six septennonagintilliard, eighty five septennonagintillion, six hundred ninety nine sexnonagintilliard, four hundred forty six sexnonagintillion, four hundred forty two quinnonagintilliard, eight hundred thirty four quinnonagintillion, one hundred ninety five quattuornonagintilliard, two hundred thirty two quattuornonagintillion, nine hundred forty eight trenonagintilliard, seven hundred eighty seven trenonagintillion, four hundred eighty eight dononagintilliard, four hundred ten dononagintillion, five hundred ninety five unnonagintilliard, seven hundred fifty unnonagintillion, one hundred ninety seven nonagintilliard, four hundred thirty eight nonagintillion, seven hundred eighty six novemoctogintilliard, three hundred fifty three novemoctogintillion, one hundred nineteen octooctogintilliard, two hundred four octooctogintillion, two hundred ten septenoctogintilliard, eight hundred fifty five septenoctogintillion, eight hundred four sexoctogintilliard, six hundred ninety two sexoctogintillion, four hundred sixty quinoctogintilliard, five hundred eighty two quinoctogintillion, five hundred thirty three quattuoroctogintilliard, eight hundred thirty two quattuoroctogintillion, nine hundred sixty seven treoctogintilliard, seven hundred seventy one treoctogintillion, nine hundred forty six dooctogintilliard, nine hundred eleven dooctogintillion, four hundred fifty nine unoctogintilliard, nine hundred one unoctogintillion, nine hundred twenty one octogintilliard, three hundred twenty four octogintillion, nine hundred eighty four novemseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight novemseptuagintillion, eight hundred ten octoseptuagintilliard, twenty one octoseptuagintillion, one hundred eighty nine septenseptuagintilliard, nine hundred sixty eight septenseptuagintillion, two hundred eighty four sexseptuagintilliard, nine hundred forty one sexseptuagintillion, three hundred thirty one quinseptuagintilliard, five hundred seventy three quinseptuagintillion, one hundred sixty four quattuorseptuagintilliard, fifty six quattuorseptuagintillion, three hundred four treseptuagintilliard, seven hundred twenty five treseptuagintillion, four hundred eighty doseptuagintilliard, eight hundred sixty eight doseptuagintillion, nine hundred twenty one unseptuagintilliard, eight hundred twenty three unseptuagintillion, four hundred forty two septuagintilliard, five hundred thirty eight septuagintillion, one hundred ninety nine novemsexagintilliard, five hundred ninety novemsexagintillion, three hundred eighty three octosexagintilliard, eight hundred fifty two octosexagintillion, four hundred twelve septensexagintilliard, seven hundred eighty six septensexagintillion, eight hundred forty sexsexagintilliard, eight hundred thirty three sexsexagintillion, four hundred seventy nine quinsexagintilliard, six hundred eleven quinsexagintillion, four hundred nineteen quattuorsexagintilliard, nine hundred seventy quattuorsexagintillion, one hundred one tresexagintilliard, seven hundred ninety two tresexagintillion, nine hundred seventy eight dosexagintilliard, three hundred fifty five dosexagintillion, six hundred fifty three unsexagintilliard, six hundred fifty unsexagintillion, seven hundred fifty five sexagintilliard, three hundred twenty nine sexagintillion, one hundred thirty eight novemquinquagintilliard, two hundred ninety eight novemquinquagintillion, six hundred fifty four octoquinquagintilliard, two hundred forty six octoquinquagintillion, two hundred twenty five septenquinquagintilliard, three hundred forty six septenquinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty seven sexquinquagintilliard, two hundred seven sexquinquagintillion, five hundred three quinquinquagintilliard, six hundred six quinquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty quattuorquinquagintilliard, seven hundred forty five quattuorquinquagintillion, nine hundred fifty six trequinquagintilliard, nine hundred fifty eight trequinquagintillion, one hundred twenty seven doquinquagintilliard, three hundred eighty three doquinquagintillion, seven hundred forty eight unquinquagintilliard, seven hundred seventeen unquinquagintillion, eight hundred twenty five quinquagintilliard, nine hundred eighteen quinquagintillion, five hundred twenty seven novemquadragintilliard, four hundred seventy three novemquadragintillion, one hundred sixty four octoquadragintilliard, nine hundred seventy octoquadragintillion, five hundred eighty two septenquadragintilliard, ninety five septenquadragintillion, one hundred eighty one sexquadragintilliard, three hundred twelve sexquadragintillion, nine hundred five quinquadragintilliard, five hundred nineteen quinquadragintillion, two hundred forty two quattuorquadragintilliard, seven hundred ten quattuorquadragintillion, two hundred eighty trequadragintilliard, five hundred seventy three trequadragintillion, twenty three doquadragintilliard, one hundred forty five doquadragintillion, five hundred fifty four unquadragintilliard, seven hundred ninety three unquadragintillion, six hundred twenty eight quadragintilliard, four hundred ninety nine quadragintillion, ten novemtrigintilliard, five hundred nine novemtrigintillion, two hundred ninety six octotrigintilliard, fifty five octotrigintillion, eight hundred forty nine septentrigintilliard, seven hundred twelve septentrigintillion, three hundred seventy seven sextrigintilliard, nine hundred seventy eight sextrigintillion, nine hundred eighty four quintrigintilliard, nine hundred twenty one quintrigintillion, eight hundred thirty nine quattuortrigintilliard, nine hundred ninety seven quattuortrigintillion, thirty seven tretrigintilliard, four hundred fifteen tretrigintillion, eight hundred ninety seven dotrigintilliard, six hundred seventy four dotrigintillion, one hundred fifty four untrigintilliard, eight hundred thirty untrigintillion, seven hundred eight trigintilliard, six hundred twenty nine trigintillion, one hundred forty five novemvigintilliard, four hundred eighty four novemvigintillion, seven hundred twenty four octovigintilliard, five hundred thirty six octovigintillion, seven hundred twenty four septenvigintilliard, five hundred seventy two septenvigintillion, six hundred twenty two sexvigintilliard, four hundred fifty sexvigintillion, one hundred thirty one quinvigintilliard, four hundred seventy nine quinvigintillion, nine hundred ninety two quattuorvigintilliard, six hundred eighty one quattuorvigintillion, six hundred eighty four trevigintilliard, three hundred ten trevigintillion, four hundred sixty four dovigintilliard, four hundred forty nine dovigintillion, four hundred thirty nine unvigintilliard, twenty two unvigintillion, two hundred fifty vigintilliard, five hundred four vigintillion, eight hundred fifty nine novemdecilliard, two hundred fifty novemdecillion, eight hundred thirty four octodecilliard, seven hundred sixty one octodecillion, eight hundred ninety four septendecilliard, seven hundred eighty eight septendecillion, eight hundred eighty nine sexdecilliard, five hundred fifty two sexdecillion, five hundred twenty seven quindecilliard, eight hundred ninety eight quindecillion, four hundred quattuordecilliard, nine hundred eighty eight quattuordecillion, one hundred ninety six tredecilliard, two hundred tredecillion, fourteen dodecilliard, eight hundred sixty eight dodecillion, five hundred seventy five undecilliard, six hundred forty undecillion, two hundred thirty three decilliard, one hundred thirty six decillion, five hundred nine nonilliard, one hundred forty five nonillion, six hundred twenty eight octilliard, one hundred twenty seven octillion, one hundred ninety one septilliard, three hundred fifty four septillion, eight hundred fifty eight sextilliard, two hundred seventy five sextillion, eighty three quintilliard, nine hundred seven quintillion, eight hundred ninety one quadrilliard, four hundred sixty nine quadrillion, nine hundred seventy nine trilliard, nineteen trillion, four hundred twenty six billiard, two hundred twenty four billion, eight hundred eighty three milliard, seven hundred eighty nine million, four hundred sixty three thousand, five hundred fifty one

is mersenne prime #22
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by EvanED · 2003-01-01 07:06 · Score: 2

I'm just pissed off that no actual newspapers seem to have covered this story... a search for "Bhopal" at nytimes.com, cnn.com, msnbc.com, washingtonpost.com, latimes.com, and Proquest (through Penn State; search terms "Bhopol AND PDN(>12/01/2002) AND PDN(01/01/2003)") yielded no relavant results. I want to know what happened... why are people hushing this up?
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by bm_luethke · 2003-01-01 07:25 · Score: 1

Well, the way I see it three reasons.

One) there is a conspiracy. This is the least likely, too many news sources out there to only have greenpeace reporting it. I would beleive conspiracy if many were running it and the three big + cnn + fox were not running it, but I can't believe that any group has that much worldwide influence.

two) thier slow. This is possible. News in india probably is not very high on thier lists unless it's REALLY bad (such as the original contamination). I would buy this

three) misrepresentation. As I said greenpeace isn't really known for unbiased reporting and telling the whole story. Maybe they blew it out of proportion or misreported it.

Most likely I would guess a little bit of two and three, the contamination happened a while ago, out of most people memories. It takes time to fully research what they have (and I bet if they ran mostly false reports on dow they would rightfully sue). And I bet that there is more to this story than what they are saying (from both sides).

--
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by EvanED · 2003-01-01 07:37 · Score: 2

Well, the slow argument doesn't really hold water in my opinion; the march took place December 2.

Anyone know of Indian newspapers?
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by HiThere · 2003-01-01 09:57 · Score: 2

Too many news sources? I had heard that most of the media was owned by seven corps, but more recently I was told that there had been some mergers and it was now down to five. Still sure that there are too many sources for a conspiracy to be practical?

Then try it this way. The people in control of major corporations tend to see the other people in control of major corporations as their peers, and they don't want to annoy them too much. No conspiracy needed. Just peer group pressure. Sometimes someone will be obnoxious, and print something that annoys one of his competitors or enemies. But not usually. That sound more plausible? Do you think that denying this effect sounds plausible at all? I suppose the only question would be "How strong an effect is is?"

Another example of orchestrated media events is reporting on Israeli/Palestinian events in the US vs. Europe. I understand that the press in the US is dependably biased in favor of Israel, where in Europe it is dependably biased in favor of the Palestinians. If so, this would be an interesting thing to research the causes of. Genuine conspiracy is probably unlikely, but theories about group coordination without explicit agreements could probably be applied. (Consider the "bird flocks" in Tierra.)

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:57 · Score: 0

> No, even according to the greenpeace article the survivors carried contamited material to thier site - that's not legal.

They were carrying Dow's OWN CHEMICALS from the mess around their homes to Dow's offices. That's just courtesy.

If you put a bunch of toxic crap in my backyard, and I take some of it back to you, you have no right to complain!

As for legality, if it's illegal on a small scale, it must be much more illegal on a larger scale, so fix the big problem first. Then hey, presto, there's no waste left for anyone to carry around.
Re:Play a little devils advocate. by bm_luethke · 2003-01-01 13:46 · Score: 1

no, no, no, you misunderstood what I said. The poster talked about a google search, I seriously doubt that all the web news sources are owned by five companies. Most of the large media companies are owned by a very small amount of companies, but by no means are THAT many owned by five companies (i mean there are PLENTY of non-mainstream news companies), a google search should have turned up plenty of resources.

--
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it

Thing needs help by somebaudy · 2003-01-01 06:23 · Score: 1

Feel like defending the right to parody, free speech, etc? Grab your Paypal and push that loading bar to the right.

--
http://www.somebaudy.com

Toss this nutjob in prison. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:25 · Score: -1, Troll

The guy running that site that was shutdown is a criminal under the DMCA and he needs to be punished harshly for this severe infraction. Folks, the law is the law and as such must be obeyed at all times, minus the exemptions for government employees and media corporations of course. This is a socialist country and you are here to serve the state. Before you start complaining, socialist systems have been proven to be the best. Anyone who belittles anyone in the ruling class needs to be punished. Just pay your taxes, obey and support all laws, and shut the hell up.

Umm... by Spazntwich · 2003-01-01 06:26 · Score: 1

Is anyone else more than a little confused about what is and isn't a parody in all of this?

Dow killed lots of people and released a press release about it and now people have made a parody of it but the parody supposedly infringed on the DMCA and DOW released another press release but that was just a parody but DOW is really suing people but that's a parody of a parody and now the DMCA has grown arms and a mouth and is devouring babies?

Re:Umm... by Profane+Motherfucker · 2003-01-01 06:52 · Score: 1

Not just babies. Entire fucking villages! The DMCA will be, according to some extremely fucking well-placed sources, classified as a weapon of mass destruction. Anyone carrying documents invoking it, or viewing PDF files related to it across international borders will be circumsized and anally raped, as they are Enemies of the State.

You heard it here first. I scooped that Drudge Motherfucker too.

Dow's Responses by backtick · 2003-01-01 06:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

Far be it from me to think walking away from an ecological disaster is a good thing, but from what I can see, according to both the US and Indian courts, Dow has done everything they said they'd do relating to this, and everything the lawsuits against them said they had to do.

The paid ~$500 million to the Indian Government for ongoing cleanup, to create a medical program for anyone who lives in the affected area, and to cover things like ongoing monitoring of the chemical creep. They also paid out an additional ~$20 million to build and maintain a new hospital specifically in the area to handle any related medical claims. They also added an additional ~$55 million dollars to the hospital support funds when they bought out UCI.

They actually have paid out far more than the lawsuits against them in US courts originally stated (where the Indian government received a ruling for ~$350 million). I think all told that Dow has produced over $600 million for cleanup and ongoing support and healthcare.

All in all, most of the cleanup, treatment and monitoring of chemical contamination in the area is supposed to be handled by the Indian Government, not by Dow directly. If those hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent somewhere else, are people asking the government (or whoever they've appointed to handle the situation) where it's going?

This is especially apt as many of the court cases have focused on Dow's liability, and the majority still uphold the 'reasonable doubt' that Dow was criminally liable (which is why they still haven't tried very hard to get Warren Anderson shipped their for homicide charges), and even some went so far as to support the findings of 3rd party teams that the chemical release was a result of a deliberate act by a disgruntled worker.

Now, it's been 18 years, and I don't personally have any knowledge of anything to do with Bhopal beyond what I can read. However, based on that information, I think a lot of this is the result of PR by Greenpeace and others who conveniently ignore the things that Dow *has* done.

As an aside, I don't work for Dow, have any relatives who work for Dow, or own stock in Dow (unless one of those pathetic 401k funds that are basically WORTHLESS right now has shares, in which case I don't give a damn). I just see a lot of knee-jerk reactions and wonder if a lot of people who 'know about bhopal' have ever done more than read 1 website or less? Could Dow be a tool of Satan designed to make life on Earth a living hell, run completely by unfeeling demons who want to kill and maim innocent people? Sure. Is it probably that black-and-white? I really doubt it. It's only fair to research both sides.

Re:Dow's Responses by Gatsby137 · 2003-01-01 07:34 · Score: 2, Informative

I found this document while Googling for more info on the Bhopal disaster--it's more or less the story of the disaster and the ensuing legal mess from Union Carbide/Dow's point-of-view. (Google lets us view it as HTML here .)
I tend to agree with the above poster. I'm not usually one to defend a corporation, but it looks like Dow did make an awful lot of reparations. The actual truth of the matter, I'm sure, is obscured far beyond our ability to discern it, particularly by a few minutes of Googling. Cheers, Mike V.
Re:Dow's Responses by Psion · 2003-01-01 07:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

[applauds]
Excellent post! I have little doubt that Greenpeace is once again playing fast and loose with the facts to further their political agenda against multinational corporations. It's just a shame that so many people buy into the notion that Greenpeace is an unbiased guardian when even one of the founders of the organization now says of it, "They're using environmental rhetoric to cloak agendas like class warfare and anti-corporatism that, in fact, have almost nothing to do with ecology."

And now the info in your post, if true, shows they're up to the same old tricks with Dow.

Yep, we do have to keep an eye on corporations and make a point to highlight grievous activity...that's what gave The Yes Men "parody" such legs. But we also need to keep an eye on activist groups like Greenpeace and be every bit as suspicious of their propaganda.
Re:Dow's Responses by HiThere · 2003-01-01 09:27 · Score: 2

Very nice. But I'm not sure that an expert from Union Carbide counts as disinterested testimony.

And none of this justifies suing the survivors for 10 years income because they protested. I don't care that DOW may have felt that the protest was unjust. It was no where near as unjust as the reaction. It makes me wish that the entire upper management of the corp would be taken out and mutilated. In a way that left them unable to speak coherently or feed themselves. Permanently.

If they can't understand that the survivors may be desperate, and that they have some responsibility for **EFFECTIVE** relief, then they can't be counted as humans. Yeah, they paid some money. So? Their responsibility wasn't to pay money, their responsibility was to ameliorate the damage that they had, at minimum, contributed to. (The safety standards by which the plant was operated were unconsciousable. Legal, I believe, and so *** what!)

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Dow's Responses by greenrd · 2003-01-01 10:23 · Score: 2

The paid ~$500 million to the Indian Government for ongoing cleanup, to create a medical program for anyone who lives in the affected area, and to cover things like ongoing monitoring of the chemical creep. They also paid out an additional ~$20 million to build and maintain a new hospital specifically in the area to handle any related medical claims. They also added an additional ~$55 million dollars to the hospital support funds when they bought out UCI.
Well, that's good if true. But that's not enough. Let's see what Greenpeace says:
The survivors have never received adequate compensation for their debilitating illnesses and even 18 years after the disaster, the polluted site of the abandoned factory, bleeds poisons daily into the groundwater of local residents.

And in more detail from their myths and realities page:
In the criminal proceedings in courts in India, preceding the settlement, UC and members of its senior staff (including Chairman Warren Anderson) refused to appear in court or obey court orders. Warren Anderson and UC were notified as absconders by the court.
This settlement was made without any consultation with the survivors. The survivors petitioned the court against the settlement. The court ruled that the settlement did not remove criminal liability from UC, UCIL and senior staff mentioned in the initial criminal case.
These figures should be compared to $108 million that Monsanto Company was ordered to pay the family of a single chemical worker who died due to benzene exposure or the $2.5 billion offered by Johns Manville Corporation for about 60,000 claimants of injury caused by exposure to asbestos. (5)
As per the current settlement, the average claimant (the gas affected who put in a claim for compensation) receive approximately $300-$500, which in most cases does not pay for medical bills.
...
# Myth. An independent investigation claimed that a disgruntled employee caused the incident.
Reality. Even though UC has had an opportunity in court to provide information on this sabotage theory, originally presented by Arthur D. Little (ADL), and thus resolve the case, it has failed to do so. However, the corporation still promotes this argument. When this theory was proposed in an international seminar, there was widespread condemnation by experts. A safety specialist with the World Bank noted that he "was shocked when [he] heard that ADL people were promoting the "sabotage" theory for Bhopal at the Institution of Chemical Engineers conference in London." (12)

See also this page on Carbide/Dow's ongoing negligence with respect to poisoning of water supplies.
I don't know much about Bhopal so I thought it best to quote directly, but I couldn't let such one-sided bullshit stand unchallenged.
Are you by any chance an astroturfer working for Dow? Maybe you're not, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of the pro-Dow arguments here came from astroturfers.
(If ad homenim arguments can be used against Greenpeace, I don't see why I shouldn't use ad homenim arguments right back!)

--
Female Prison Rape in NY
Re:Dow's Responses by canadian_right · 2003-01-01 11:34 · Score: 2

Green Peace was once a great organization, but they are now just fanatics, that do indeed, play fast and lose with facts. It has become so bad that one of the founders, Bob Hunter, actually quit the GreenPeace quite a while back. More recently, Green Peace has been prattling on about the "Great Bear Rain Forest" here in BC and how the forest companies are cutting it down. Despite the fact that the forest companies are cutting down old growth forests as fast as they can, there is NO "Great Bear Rain Forest". Green Peace made it up because it looks good on billboards.

--
Anarchists never rule
Re:Dow's Responses by mgblst · 2003-01-01 15:29 · Score: 2

Fascinating account of what has happened. But, I can't see anywhere in your post, where you discuss what happened to those responsible? No one was jailed because of this tragedy, and it is quite possible that the people involved are still working at Dow. If you are happy with this outcome, then could you please move next to one of their plants? thanks, J.
Re:Dow's Responses by digbat · 2003-01-01 16:00 · Score: 1

The New Scientist provides a little more information about the legal actions and negligence issues. It strikes me that DOW knew about the Bhopal events before they bought UC. DOW seem to want to continue to avoid responsibility for the effects of their commercial activities just as UC did before.

The compensation that the Bhopal victims have had so far wouldn't keep many of us in food and clothes for a month. What compensation would UC or DOW have paid if this had happened in the USA?

digbat

--
Mostly harmless

Whither Globalization? by teetam · 2003-01-01 06:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

I grew up in India and whenever I think back to the Bhopal tragedy, I still feel nauseated. American politicians today who scream about Iraq gassing its own people should take a look at this.

A negligent American company releases poisonous gases in a third-world country and kills or injures tens of thousands of (dark-skinned) people. You would think the world would be outraged.

No. Suddenly, Dow chemicals was no longer a global company - it was an American company, run by American citizens who are bound only by American laws! The Indians had to struggle very hard to bring these people to court - it is still not over, 18 years after the 'accident'.

Globalization is a wonderful thing, but only if all such aspects are dealt with. People tend to forget that free markets in countries like the USA work well only when the companies are governed by law and regulated by watchdog organizations. While the West aggressively pushes for global free markets, they don't seem to realize that there is no global law and no global watchdog or regulatory body.

What Dow chemicals did is an extremity, but there are many other simpler violations. Think about it - Coke sells cans in USA, among hundreds of other countries. That is great. But, how many of these countries have proper recycling facilities? Many third world countries are being pressurized by the world bank to open up to MNCs and are they are all becoming dumping grounds for these multi national companies. Heck, most of these countries don't even have proper drinking water for its population, but Coke and Pepsi are available everywhere!

--
All your favorite sites in one place!

Re:Whither Globalization? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:39 · Score: 0

The difference between Dow and Iraq is one of intent. Hussein did it PURPOSELY to kill those people. Dow did it accidentally. Does that mean they are blame free? Of course not, but it's the same line between manslaughter and murder. Different crimes with different consequences, yet both result in someone else's death.

People always point to globalization as a problem. Globalization already happened. It's over. The real problem is corporatism. Do you know how many globalization protestors eat chinese food and never realize that's globalization too?
Re:Whither Globalization? by teetam · 2003-01-01 06:50 · Score: 2

I am not protesting globalization. As I said, it is a wonderful thing.
What I am concerned about is why steps are not being taken by the advocates of globalization to ensure corporations and its executives are held responsible for its actions?
Why is Nike able to get away with sweat shops in Indonesia where people work in inhuman conditions?
Why are the other junk food companies are held responsible for the amount of garbage they generate?
Are there effective pollution checks in place all over the world, just like in the West?
Sure, most of the responsibility lies with that country itself. But, let's face it - some of these countries haven't even solved their basic problems of food and water yet!
In the place of corporate appeasement, if the West starts to have real capitalism, may be these things will be resolved. Till then, companies will use "globalization" as an excuse for circumventing wage laws, pollution control laws and consumer safety laws.

--
All your favorite sites in one place!
Re:Whither Globalization? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:41 · Score: 0

Without minimizing the horror of the tragedy, it is useful to remember what actually happened.

The plant at Bhopal was owned and operated by Union Carbide India, Ltd (UCIL). UCIL was, in turn, owned 50.9% by Union Carbide of the US with the remaining 49.1% owned by Indian financial institutions and Indian private citizens.

The plant was managed and staffed by Indian citizens.

Sometime in the early AM of December 3rd, 1984, one of those Indian citizens operating the plant either by accident or on purpose (according to investigators) triggered the release of the gas which killed thousands.

There were no Americans in the plant at the time of the gas release.

To paraphrase you: This is a case of negligent, third-world, brown-skinned operator releasing poison gases in his own third-world country, killing or injuring thousands of dark-skinned people. You'd think the world would be outraged.
Re:Whither Globalization? by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 09:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

American politicians today who scream about Iraq gassing its own people should take a look at this.

A negligent American company releases poisonous gases in a third-world country and kills or injures tens of thousands of (dark-skinned) people. You would think the world would be outraged.

Your comparison between Carbide and Hussein is morally bankrupt.

There is a very large difference between the negligence (if there was actual negligence) of Carbide and murderous intent of Saddam Hussein to commit genocide. Carbide certainly did NOT go out and say 'let's kill off a bunch of folks using MIC to cut down on these local protests'.

There is also the fact that the UCarbide plant in West Va, had problems with MIC accidents as well. The concept that Carbide was doing anything in India because it felt that Indians were less worthy than Americans is speculative, to say the least.

UC does bear a great deal of responsibility for what happened in India. But it was not genocide, murder, chemical warefare or any other such act. It was an unintended industrial accident of unprecidented impact.

Maybe UC was negligent in it's operations of the Bhopal plant - but the fact is that best practice standards then and now are two very different things. And the fact is that ultimately that local management of a chemical plant is in the best position to address safety issues. That local management must share a great deal of the responsibility for what happened, including ultimately the leaky valve that was the immediate cause of the accident. That local management was Indian.
Re:Whither Globalization? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:23 · Score: 0

So CEO's in the US are a bunch of dangerous, incompetent fools?

While Saddam Hussein could be persuaded *not* to gas people, it would be impossiblew to stop a bumbling fool as long as they are in a position where their cack-handed mistakes can kill or injure thousandes.

Well, I hope I've got that right...
Re:Whither Globalization? by HiThere · 2003-01-01 09:45 · Score: 2

I see. And DOW sued the protesters by accident?

And yes, globalization is a problem. It doesn't need to be, but it's being managed by the centralizers of authority, and they want to steal everyones rights and wealth. They are after the power to control, and don't care who gets hurt in the process. Corporatism is only a part of the problem.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Whither Globalization? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:24 · Score: 0

If you murder someone who accidentally killed your father, you're going to jail, too.
Re:Whither Globalization? by Patman · 2003-01-01 13:30 · Score: 2

No. Suddenly, Dow chemicals was no longer a global company - it was an American company, run by American citizens who are bound only by American laws! The Indians had to struggle very hard to bring these people to court - it is still not over, 18 years after the 'accident'

You mean Union Carbide, right?

Dow Chemical purchased Union Carbide *sixteen years* after the accident. Regardless of their current policies, I fail to see how that makes Dow Chemical responsible for it.

USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's new? by WIAKywbfatw · 2003-01-01 06:43 · Score: 1, Flamebait

The United States is the world's biggest polluter. This isn't trolling. This isn't flaming. This is fact.

Four percent of the world's population, 25 percent of the pollution. Way to go, USA.

Recent American achievements in the "who cares if your kids got asthma?" race:

Torpedoing any serious effort to curb greenhouse gas emissions in the 1997 Kyoto agreement (thanks, Bill Clinton).
Later reneging on America's commitment to ratify that agreement, despite the fact that 178 other nations have done so (thanks, George W. Bush).
Failing to tackle arsenic pollution in its own drinking water (currently at levels way above those that would be illegal in Europe and elsewhere) until 2004 (thanks again, Bill).
Attempting to reverse that legislation, only to have it blow up in his face (thanks again, Dubya).
Allowing Alcoa, the world's third largest Aluminium maker, to profit from a loophole in Texas environmental laws by further polluting that state with 60,000 tons of sulphur dioxide each year (from which Paul O'Neill, Dubya's Secretary to the Treasury profited).
Cutting funding for research into cleaner, more fuel efficient cars by 28% (Dubya again).
Reversing an age-old bi-partisan policy of demanding more fuel effieciency from car makers (Bill again).
Carrying on that policy (Dubya again).
Exempting SUVs from having to meet the same minimum mileage requirements of other cars (Bill again).
Cancelling the 2004 deadline for car makers to develop prototype high-mileage cars (Dubya again).
Breaking a campaign promise to invest $100 million into rain forest conservation (Dubya again).
Vetoing a proposal to increase public access to information about the potential consequences of chemical plant accidents (Dubya again).
Refusing to honour an international accord to enforce a 1972 treaty banning germ warfare (Dubya again).
Cutting $500 million from the Environmental Protection Agency's budget (Dubya again).
Ignoring campaign promises to regulate carbon dioxide emissions (Dubya again).
Proposing the opening up of previously unspoilt national monuments in Alaska and elsewhere in the hunt for yet more coal, oil and gas (Dubya again).
Permitting oil and gas developments off the coast of Florida and in Montana forests (Dubya again).
Attempting to reverse legislation protecting 60 million acres of national forest from logging and road building (Dubya again).
Promoting the development of "mini-nukes, in direct violation of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (Dubya again).
The list goes on and on.

Not only is the US the world's biggest polluter, it's also the world's biggest consumer. Per capita, Americans use more energy, more oil, more gas than any other nation in the world.

Even the most patriotic simpleton has got to see that this isn't something to be proud of - if nothing else, the shit's going to hit the fan sooner or later. Why not try and do something about it?

--

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:51 · Score: 0

You just don't get it, do ya Scott?

It's simple really. We use up all the oil, THEN we release our new super energy source only available from the United States, and BOOYAH! 3rd subjugation for the next 100 years!

Re:no dow = no computer. no greenpeace = better wo by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 06:55 · Score: 0

Sad twat!

How many people... by RenQuanta · 2003-01-01 07:01 · Score: 2

...are going to use the Greenpeace letter generator to send a complain to the Dow CEO? It'd be interesting to get a gauge on how much mail he'll be getting...

Re:How many people... by HiThere · 2003-01-01 10:19 · Score: 2

I did. I find the actions of DOW (not speaking here of Union Carbide) vile beyond description. I wish I could write vile beyond belief, but there have been too many examples.

To me, DOWs responsibility is to clean up the place where the people live, not to pay money to the govt. Paying money to the govt. counts as paying protection money. Cleaning up the area counts as helping people. And suing people who protest their not being ethical strikes me as about as low as it's legally permissible to get. (Morals and ethics don't figure in here. DOWs reaction to the whole mess has been without any consideration of morals or ethics.)

Union Carbide had an accident while running a plant that was unsafe. Bad. Very bad. But not especially morally cuplable (except for the cost cutting that shorted the safety standards). Perhaps they had some reason to believe that the money they paid the Indian Govt. would be used to remediate the damages (OK, so I egnage in fantasy occasionally). But they were bought by DOW. DOW bought the liabilites as well as the credits, but this doesn't really count the moral baggage (unless they kept the same management...I didn't check, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt). But after all this time the site is still polluted, and people are still forced to live there. This is no credit to the Indian govt., and they were the people that the protest should have been aimed at, really. But it was aimed at DOW. This is understandable by any normal person. It may well have been unjust, I'm not certain. But it was reasonable. DOW had not made restitution to those that it (i.e. Union Carbide) had injured. And it's response was to sue them for 10 years income.

A company that would do this deserves to have it's charter yanked immediately. It deserves to be obliterated, to be sold at auction. And the management deserves 20 years in solitary. Plus confiscation of all assets (for distribution to the *other* stockholders to recompense them for their losses).

Not that I think this will happen, but anyone who cares so little for people shouldn't be allowed to encounter them. And luxury is clearly inappropriate.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

In Soviet America by DarkKnightRadick · 2003-01-01 07:02 · Score: 0, Troll

The Corporation says "FUCK OFF!"

--
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)

This is the best part of DOW... by Hott+of+the+World · 2003-01-01 07:07 · Score: 2

"we firmly believe that those who violate the right to Corporate Free Speech have no place on a commercial network like the internet.

It's another example of our committment to Living. Improved Daily. With an internet shaped by Corporate Free Speech.

Just another example of some PR manager having his head too far up his ass.

--
| - | - |

Look up the history of. . . ` by kfg · 2003-01-01 07:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

the Virgina Colony. The Hudson Bay Trading Company. The East Indian Trading Company. Etc.

The framers of the Constitution knew damn well what corporations "would become." They had *already* become them.

Provisions were made in the Constitution and legislative law to deal with this issue. Great essays were written on the subject by learned minds such as Thomas Jefferson. 50 years later such matters were still uppermost in the minds of America's great social philosopher's, such as Thoreau.

Our forefather's weren't idiots, weren't ignorant and weren't "cavemen." Their world was, in many respects, "more like our own than our own."

Stock markets, insurance companies, leveraged buyouts and hostile takeovers, all done on a global scale, were already a century or more of old news before the first shot of the revolution was fired on the green at Lexington.

For God's sake man, Jefferson and Adams were *lawyers* and had actually participated in such actions. They learned their loathing of them first hand.

So what went wrong?

Well, let me put it to you this way. Do *you* still do business with these large corporations, giving them the money and power to buy law? Traded a little freedom for luxury items and security maybe?

I forget who it was, but an ancient historian, commenting on the aculturation of the Britons under Roman rule, wrote something along these lines:

"And so, the gullible natives, eventually came to call their slavery "culture.""

Ring any bells close to home?

That's the problem with republicanism, don't you see. The problems start at the top, more often than not, but *responsibiltiy* always, always, alway, falls to the bottom.

People don't want responsibility. They want a Big Mac while bopping to the latest Brittney Spears "tune."

KFG

Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by dazed-n-confused · 2003-01-01 08:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I forget who it was, but an ancient historian, commenting on the aculturation of the Britons under Roman rule, wrote something along these lines: "And so, the gullible natives, eventually came to call their slavery "culture.""

Tacitus, Agricola (hagiography of his father-in-law, a Roman governor of Britain), s.21.

"To accustom to rest and repose through the charms of luxury a population scattered and barbarous and therefore inclined to war, Agricola gave private encouragement and public aid to the building of temples, courts of justice and dwelling-houses, praising the energetic, and reproving the indolent. Thus an honourable rivalry took the place of compulsion. He likewise provided a liberal education for the sons of the chiefs, and showed such a preference for the natural powers of the Britons over the industry of the Gauls that they who lately disdained the tongue of Rome now coveted its eloquence. Hence, too, a liking sprang up for our style of dress, and the "toga" became fashionable. Step by step they were led to things which dispose to vice, the lounge, the bath, the elegant banquet. All this in their ignorance they called civilisation, when it was but a part of their servitude."
Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by dacarr · 2003-01-01 08:38 · Score: 2

They want a Big Mac while bopping to the latest Brittney Spears "tune."
Make sure you put a TM after that word "tune", lest you get in trouble by the RIAA.

--
This sig no verb.
Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:23 · Score: 0

"People don't want responsibility. They want a Big Mac while bopping to the latest Brittney Spears "tune."

Who are you to tell them different?
As an U.S. citizen you are free to like any type of food, music, or OS that you want regardless of taste.
Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:15 · Score: 0

Yes, you are absolutely free to like whatever you want. BUT just as you are completely free to buy these products, you are also completely responsible for the results. A person who eats meat is on the same moral level as the butcher.
Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by fermion · 2003-01-01 11:10 · Score: 2

In general you are correct. All of us have the responsibility, and many have the opportunity, to make decisions that will help create the world we say we want. This is especially true in the somewhat capitalistic society in which many of us live.
There ate two issues that you miss. First, income is generally distributed unevenly. The few who have the largest share of the income, and who could make the most difference, have a vested interest in continuing the policies that made them rich and minimizing policies that might make others rich at their expense. The very many at the bottom generally have no real choice. The can either eat at Burger King or McDonalds. For instance, many lower income neighborhoods do not have a big grocery store, but the do have several fast food places, within walking distance. As such, it is cheaper to go a fast food place than to pay the relatively high prices at the corner store.
Second, the consequences of certain decisions are often purposely obfuscated to the consumer. For instance, parents feed McDonalds to their kids because the commercials equate taking your kids to McDonalds to love for your kid. Parents buy huge SUVs because they have been made so afraid of the outside world that destroying the environment seems to be the only way to save their kid from imminent death. We laugh at the folly of organic food while forgetting that so much or food is imported, and we really don't know what pesticides were used in foreign grown foods.
There are many other reasons why the bulk of the responsibility should be placed on the powerful elite. Yes, it is true that we as customers should try very hard to make decisions that won't harm us. However, we as citizens also need to put pressure on out representatives not push the FUD that forces otherwise rational people to choose irrational things.

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Re:Look up the history of. . . ` by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 14:32 · Score: 0

"A person who eats meat is on the same moral level as the butcher."

What about the poor helpless plants?
They can't even get up and walk.
At night I can still hear the screams...

Oh my God what have I done?

LOL by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:08 · Score: 0

I don't know if you're responsible for some of the other anti-michael posts lately, but I just wanted to say "thanks". Anyone that continually harasses that whining, flamebaiting pile of pseudoliberal pus is a hero to me.

To reiterate: michael is a whining, flamebaiting cunt. Just look at cetan's journal for proof.

Free Speech by Henry+V+.009 · 2003-01-01 07:13 · Score: 2

A lot of people don't understand the concept, so I'll explain. Everyone in America can think of at least 10 good laws about speech that would improve society. I know I can. Ban hate speech, ban those psychic ball-gazing frauds, ban tobacco advertisements, and so on. And those would be good laws. In my opinion.

Unfortunately, everyone else has a different set of good laws for restricting speech. And I probably don't agree with most of them. The only way to come to agreement on how we restrict speech will therefore be through our elected officials.

The founders understood that. And they also understood that the government bodies they were setting up simply wouldn't be perfect enough to be trusted with making these kind of laws. For that reason they put up a fence around that area of the law. The First Ammendment establishes that the government can't make laws regarding speech, and that it can't make laws regarding religion. Sure, some good might be accomplished if the fence wasn't there, but eventually the damage would outweigh the good.

So everytime you see some piece of speech that you think shouldn't be allowed, restrain yourself. Don't call for it to be banned. The government isn't smart enough to be messing around in there. Protecting that speech protects your speech.

Re:Free Speech by VB · 2003-01-01 08:07 · Score: 1

Succinctly put... While it's important that speech issued about corporations should not be false and libelous, restricting speech ends there.

"...we firmly believe that those who violate the right to Corporate Free Speech have no place on a commercial network like the internet. "

It's unfortunate that in Dow's quoted official statement they mistake the Internet for a commercial network, when it was actually funded from government funds as a public network; which should maintain public free speech protection, rather than "Corporate Free Speech" protection -- whatever the hell that is.

It's a shame the YesMen infringed on Dow's copyrights in their parody, but pretty disturbing that Dow lawyers were able to effectively shut down their ISP. I'd love to see a list of Dow products I can boycott. Any one have such a list?

--
www.dedserius.com
VB != VisualBasic

This is a good thing. by forii · 2003-01-01 07:16 · Score: 2

RTMark sent out spam. Unsolicited mass email. Whether it was a political rant, a parody, or "INCREASE YOUR PENIS SIZE" doesn't matter, I didn't ask for it, I didn't want it, and it still arrived in my (and many other people's) mailbox.

I sent a message to RTMark's ISP (The Thing), complaining about the message, and that it violated their Terms of Service. This isn't the first time that I have received spam from RTMark, or is it the first time that I have complained about it, and yet it had not stopped. If The Thing refused to do anything about it, or if they condoned it, then they are no better than a bunch of worthless spammers, and I'm glad that Verio cut them off.

Re:This is a good thing. by tanner_andrews · 2003-01-02 05:07 · Score: 1

...no better than a bunch of worthless spammers, and I'm glad that Verio cut them off.

If Verio cut someone off for spamming, that alone ought to be considered newsworthy here on slashdot. Normally, Verio seems to be a spam support network.

--
Tilt at windmills. Occasionally one will fall over out of sheer surprise.

More info on the DOW shanagans... by Gortbusters.org · 2003-01-01 07:21 · Score: 0

Take a look here for the recent revealing of the hoax.

Don't forget the original press release when the hoax started.

--
--------
Free your mind.

My letter to Dow by octalgirl · 2003-01-01 07:25 · Score: 2

Don't ya just love the web? Here's the link to instantly write a letter to Dow.

And here's what I just sent them:

As the new CEO and President of Dow Chemical Company, I am stunned at your actions against the survivors of the Bhopal, India industrial tragedy. Dow has been a respected name in corporate America for so many years. But this incomprehensible treatment of the poor and sick, when you should be doing everything in your power to make things right, to offer aid and rebuilding, health care and clean up, changes my vision of Dow and its executives and my family and I have lost all respect.

Once again the almighty dollar rules a corporation rather than the fundamental care of the people who once supported it. It matters not that this incident occurred under Union Carbide, you knew this when you bought them.

You know quite well that if this had happened in the U.S., this would have been fixed by now. To attack a poor and innocent people, those that have lost many family and still struggle to survive, shows your true bully side. To think that you would do this because they dared to perform a peaceful protest is nothing more than shocking to me. Dow was always such a respected name.

When you add to that your treatment of the parody site Dow-chemical and the whole YesMen fiasco, to use such an ill-gotten law as the DMCA to silence the web and force the take down of not only a web site, but also an entire ISP is unfathomable. It shows that your new stance is to merely silence those who would dare stand up to you, and this is nothing more than a cartelish, mob mentality than can no longer have respect.

I implore you to correct this. To drop your charges against the poor and suffering of India, and to drop your charges against a parody web site, which under the US copyright law, it is perfectly legal to parody just about anything.

I have begun my march to inform those in my family and my place of work of your actions. Others are doing the same. Will you sue me too just to silence me?

I grew up with the name of Dow and have always believed it be an important and respected company. Unless these serious issues are corrected, I can no longer ignore the truth, nor can I think of Dow with any high regard.

Take note that I am writing this to you via the convience of the web. Yes, the Internet is a wonderful and rich thing which allows us to recieve such information and respond accordingly, even on New Year's Day. The DMCA does nothing but silence this information. But I include my own salutation, because I do not agree with the one built into this online form.

With utmost sincerity,

A very aware U.S. citizen-
(name here)

Re:My letter to Dow by HiThere · 2003-01-01 10:23 · Score: 2

Thank you.
I am too upset with DOWs actions to allow myself to even customize the letter.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Re:Another vote against "The Yes Men" by MacAndrew · 2003-01-01 07:27 · Score: 2

Not that Dow is squeaky clean ... but that's beside the point. You don't get a free pass to break whatever law no matter how good your cause, even for civil disobedience. Worst of all, it is so unnecessary.

The "parody" site is deliberately misleading, and downright offensive. When I looked for at least a disclaimer, I find instead "Copyright © The Dow Company." The entire site appears to be structured similarly. This insults our intelligence. What, the critics' argument aren't good enough to stand alone? We won't appreciate it unless fooled?

The only reason I was studying the site for hints was the warning I received in advance. Their domain name dowethics adds nicely to the fakery -- certainly it is a plausible name for a corporation to operate.

Parody can be protected speech, but not automatically. Impersonation and falsehood are not protected -- else it would be impossible to prosecute con men. Here, it doesn't even matter if they're telling the truth -- they can't pretend to be Dow. No brainer.

well.... by stinky+wizzleteats · 2003-01-01 07:29 · Score: 2

I never find myself on this side of the argument, but the only thing I see here which is not steaming troll meat is the Dow DMCA complaint, which is actually pretty reasonable. The owner of the dow-chemical domain is not named George Dow-Chemical, images and text WERE taken from the dow web site without their permission, and all of this was used to deceive the public as to the intents and actions of Dow.

One could actually make a pretty good argument that those opposed to the DMCA wish only to plagarize and deceive, based on the actions of these parodists. For this reason, I cannot support their efforts. Freedom of information is too important to me.

Re:well.... by nagora · 2003-01-01 07:59 · Score: 2

and all of this was used to deceive the public as to the intents and actions of Dow.
I think you mean "make clear to the public the real intents and actions of Dow", don't you? That is the point of satire and I don't see any reason why mass murderers should be allowed to hide behind something as trivial as copyright laws to protect them from having their actions brought to larger attention.
TWW

--
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:well.... by stinky+wizzleteats · 2003-01-01 08:12 · Score: 2

You misunderstand. I in no way oppose anyone saying anything. But saying something while misrepresenting yourself as the party you are attempting to criticize is cowardly and illegal.

Discussing the actions of Dow is one thing. Doing so with a domain name and web site format intended to deceive the viewer as to the source of the material is quite another.

I happen to agree with you with regard to the behavior of Dow, but giving the Dows of the world more ammunition to shut down public participation by clearly attemtpting to deceive the public is no way to effectively protest it.
Re:well.... by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 08:52 · Score: 2

I don't see any reason why mass murderers should be allowed to hide behind something as trivial as copyright laws to protect them from having their actions brought to larger attention.

In what regard are these mass murderers? Certainly Dow had no involvement with or ability to alter the circumstances involving Bhopal befire the fact. And to be honest I really doubt that there are any people that were involved with the Bhopal incident still with UC at the time of its acquisition by Dow.

If you are talking about some form of corporate responsibility, well, yes. Certainly the UC of 1984 was responsible for this disaster. And they paid the price for it, both financial and in the courts of public opinion. Dow must continue to assume the liabilities associated with this as a corporation because of their acquisition of UC.

As for murder, I have my doubts that it applies in this case. Murder involves intent to kill somebody. Nobody has any evidence that anyone at UC said 'let's kill off a bunch of folks in India'. Calling this murder really shows that you have no interest in presenting the facts fairly.
Re:well.... by Grax · 2003-01-01 15:04 · Score: 1

I am fully in favor to satire and parody but it must be marked as such. Somewhere on the page it should say "This is parody site. Not endorsed by Dow Chemical Company"

Their site says "Copyright The Dow Company". They've basically turned over ownership of their parody to Dow and now they deserve whatever Dow wants to do to them.

I do not, however, approve of how the situation was handled with respect to pulling the entire internet connection.

--
Coding Blog
Re:well.... by nagora · 2003-01-02 01:08 · Score: 2

And to be honest I really doubt that there are any people that were involved with the Bhopal incident still with UC at the time of its acquisition by Dow.
There is the question of how Anderson was able to live in luxury in America while it was know that there was a warrent out for his arrest; I seriously doubt that Dow did not know of the existance of the warrent or of his whereabouts.
And they paid the price for it, both financial and in the courts of public opinion.
I wish I could belive you are joking. The price they paid was a pittance both in terms of the absoulte level of compensation (less than 3000 dollars per death and 500 per survivor - many of whom were crippled for life, with many claims still soutstanding today due to legal teams determined to sit out the victim's willpower or lifespans) and in the relative sense of what it would have cost if the same "accident" had happened in the US.
Murder involves intent to kill somebody.
Given that the state of the site was well know to the people in charge who had a responsibility to ensure the safety of their workers and that the western workers, mainly management, were alerted very early on that they had to get out of the area quick while the Indian workers and their families were told nothing untill well after 20000 of them had received leathel doses of various compounds, it is really pushing it to say that there was anything truely accidental about most of these deaths.
Nobody has any evidence that anyone at UC said 'let's kill off a bunch of folks in India'
As I said above, there is a lot of evidence that plenty of people at UC said "Who gives a fuck if a bunch of folks in India get killed off?" which, for the Indians at least, amounts to the same thing.
TWW

--
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:well.... by nagora · 2003-01-02 01:24 · Score: 2

Dow said, in their complaint that
"The violation of Dow' s invaluable copyrights is causing and will continue to cause Dow to suffer irreparable damage as long as the website remains operational."
given that we are talking about an action that resulted in nine 9/11's I think that Dow's statement shows how important this parody is; we are not just dealing with a little joke or jibe at the expense of a few overpaid suits - this isn't just a Dilbert cartoon. This is a massive issue of far greater importance than Dow's copyright. The fact that this is the first thing in 18 years that has actually hurt someone responsible for the deaths of 20000 people shows just why it was important not to weakly disclaim the content.
Put it this way: if the same material had appeared in The Onion, would it have stung Dow so badly? Would they have even cared? If not then it wouldn't have been worth doing.
Plus, of course, there are the questions: what would you think if your family had lost two or three members and been given 3000 dollars each for your trouble while the people responsible had just gone home and were living in luxury on a pension generated by the same company that killed so many of your friends and relations? What if you had had to bury children in unnamed graves because their entire families had been wiped out leaving no one that knew their names? Would you give a toss about Dow's silly little copyright?
TWW

--
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:well.... by Grax · 2003-01-02 01:41 · Score: 1

I'm not denying the severity of the problem caused by Dow Chemical. Assuming the facts quoted here and on the Greenpeace site to be accurate I believe the Dow Chemical Company should be brought up on felony murder charges and put to death (corporate charter revoked and assets sold at auction. Some previous cases have shown that corporations have some of the same rights as individuals, it follows that they also have the same responsibilities.) in addition to certain responsible individuals also being brought up on murder charges.

Given the magnitude of the problem I am certain that US jurisdiction can be claimed for some charges, possibly conspiracy to commit murder (not to mention existing charges that exist in India) and the corporation and certain decision makers should be tried for their crimes.

(IANAL. I just watch Law and Order on ocassion.)

--
Coding Blog

A link to a Register Article about the issue. by tres3 · 2003-01-01 07:35 · Score: 2, Informative

I tried to send this to the story gods at slashdot as an amendment to my posting of this story. I guess that it didn't get there in time or they chose not to amend my submission (Although it was edited from the way I submitted it). Anyway here is a link to The Register's article.

--
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!

Re:A link to a Register Article about the issue. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 13:40 · Score: 0

Just one link in your comment? Did the link shitting monster go to bed for the night? Jesus Christ. Look at that fucking thing. There's so many fucking links its impossible to tell just what the fuck is going on. You get an F.

UNION CARBIDE, NOT DOW!!! by MacAndrew · 2003-01-01 07:40 · Score: 2

Please everyone, condemn the right party.

** Dow bought Union Carbide 2 years ago. **

Dow is 100% liable for Union Carbide obligations, that comes with the purchase, but did not "kill" anybody at Bhopal in 1984 -- nearly 20 years ago.

greenpeace by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 07:41 · Score: -1, Troll

I was really into this article, until greenpeace was mentioned. Buncha wackos.

Re:greenpeace by grishnav · 2003-01-01 10:38 · Score: 1

Agreed.

But out concern here at /. isn't really with the environmental issues (though, some /.ers may have concern with that), but rather with the free speeach issues.

DOW didn't do anything wrong; however... by StupidKatz · 2003-01-01 07:46 · Score: 2

In truth, DOW did nothing wrong. They should, however, clean up the messes that Union Carbide left behind.

Frankly, I'd hardly call delivering TOXIC WASTE to a public place a "peaceful protest". I never really liked Greenpeace, and this reminds me why.

Re:DOW didn't do anything wrong; however... by phorm · 2003-01-01 09:00 · Score: 1

Depends on how it was delivered I suppose. I don't think they were throwing at anyone... if they calmly handed it over in a radiation-sealed container it wouldn't be a huge deal (I'm hoping they didn't just carry the stuff bare handed over there).
Re:DOW didn't do anything wrong; however... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:19 · Score: 0

DOW *did* buy the company (all it's assets, and all it's liabilities). Or didn't the CEO of DOW know about this?
Re:DOW didn't do anything wrong; however... by Platinum+Dragon · 2003-01-01 11:29 · Score: 1

I never really liked Greenpeace, and this reminds me why.

Except this wasn't a Greenpeace action. This was 200 women, who live on the land contaminated by the Union Carbide accident, trying to get someone, anyone (preferably the company that purchased the polluter, and thus took up its liabilities and responsibilities) to put in some money and help clean up the land. The government clearly failed to do it, despite getting money from Dow already according to some other posters.

What else are they supposed to do? I don't think this is the first protest that has taken place, and if that land is still toxic waste, someone has clearly failed in their responsibility to clean it up. Why should the Indian government have to do it, when Union Carbide made the mess? Since Dow bought Union Carbide, isn't Dow responsible?

Milton Friedman forbid we hold corporations responsible for anything but making money...

--

Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 07:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Per capita, Americans use more energy, more oil, more gas than any other nation in the world.

That sort of automatically follows from the fact that America has the highest GDP and GDP/capita, doesn't it?

Personally I agree with you that the US should be doing a lot more to control it's greenhouse gas emissions. But tirades that ignore the fact that there are other sources of pullution in this world, and in fact the US is not doing that badly in terms of pullution per GDP do little to address the overall problem.

If you look at statistics like pollution / GDP, which is a much more indicitive measure of how a society is handling pollution issues, America is not the highest in the world, and isn't even close. For example if you look at lb. of sulfur dioxide emissions per $1000 USD GDP we have the following as the top polluters.

Poland
Greece
Australia
Canada
Turkey
Czech
China
Russia

In fact the situation with pollution in China is so bad that 8 of the 10 most polluted cities in the world are in China.

China, with a GDP equal to about 10% of the US GDP releases 13% of the world's CO2 vs. the US's 23%. That is a factor of more than 5 per GDP dollar greater than the US. At this rate, and China's rate of economic growth it is estimated that China will be the #1 CO2 emitter by the end of the decade. By 2020 China is expected to be emitting more CO2 than the US, Japan and Canada combined.

Yes, the US is the largest consumer of economic resources, and the largest polluter in the world. Be even if the US were to freeze it's CO2 emissions at 1990 levels, it would little to impact world CO2 levels or growth of those levels. That growth is coming from places outside the US. And even worse is the efficiency of that growth in terms of pollution per GDP dollar.

The SPAM issue by tres3 · 2003-01-01 07:58 · Score: 1

I was unaware of the SPAM side of this story. I read slashdot almost everyday but somehow missed the earlier story about this. (The earlier story did not contain any info about Dow suing the survivors though.) Back to the SPAM issue. It seems that the issue of SPAM is being considered on Capital Hill by some of our politicians. Although no serious bills are yet being considered there is one form of SPAM that will never be regulated: political speech. That is what RTMark's SPAM was -- political speech. This will never be squelched as it would not be in the interests of politicians to silence themselves or the Political Action Committees (PACs) that speak for them and/or against their opponents. What I'm saying is: This type of SPAM will never go away.

There are grounds for a serious First Amendment lawsuit here against any ISP that limited your ability to speak out politically. Unfortunately there are also grounds for a corporation to sue for sending out regular SPAM as well since the Supreme Court has often upheld the rights of corporations to engage in "Free Speech". I know. I know. What the corporations are speeching about never seems to be free.

--
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!

Re:The SPAM issue by forii · 2003-01-01 08:09 · Score: 1

Spam should not be regulated by the government. That said, nobody can force an ISP to carry a site, and if The Thing will not crack down on abuses under them (that go against their own stated TOS), then I'm glad that someone is cracking down on The Thing.

If RTMark wants to spam again, maybe they can go through some Chinese ISPs like the other spammers have to.

More Green Crap?? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:01 · Score: -1, Troll

Here its Jan 1st and we're already starting to drown in more green crap. I'm really sick of hearing about environmental news that is totally unfounded and I'm NOT going to believe any green news let alone any news from a green site. I thought everyone here was along my beliefs that anything that comes from a tree hugger's mouth is shit.

(Yes this is a intentional troll to make fun of the browns here).

Off Topic (right topic this time) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:03 · Score: -1, Troll

Thank-you Slashdot, I was losing faith.

Adam's Family by anarchima · 2003-01-01 08:05 · Score: 1

Yes, I thought "The Thing" was in reference to the Adam's family (you know: dum, dum, dum! dum dum! dum dum ... No? Oh...). Of course then I read the article and...

--
The Welkin: Online Music Reviews

Didn't you read my submission... by tres3 · 2003-01-01 08:09 · Score: 1

At first I was lured into thinking that this was Dow's response too. Then I started paying attention and even pointed out the fact in my submission that this (where you quoted from) was actually part of the parody site.

Pay attention. It's a two step process.
First -- Engage Brain.
Then -- Engage Mouth.

--
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!

Re:Didn't you read my submission... by VB · 2003-01-01 09:01 · Score: 1

So, you're saying they didn't get TheThing shut down?

But at the beginning of December, Wolfgang Staehle, owner and director of The Thing, was notified by his service provider, Verio, that The Thing's Internet connection would be severed on Feb. 28, 2003.

Perhaps it is a two-step process:
First - Load;
Second - Shoot.

Happy New Year. Thanks for the post. Glad I've been better informed by your posting it.

--
www.dedserius.com
VB != VisualBasic
Re:Didn't you read my submission... by Hott+of+the+World · 2003-01-01 10:30 · Score: 2

But then it wouldnt be slashdot...

--
| - | - |
Re:Didn't you read my submission... by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 16:20 · Score: 2

Wrong order of events though, Dow never asked for The Thing to be shut down.

Dow simply asked Verio that it see to it that the site was removed from the web. Verio called The Thing, but they had gone home for the night. (Make a note... if you ever plan on running an ISP that hosts contraversial content, have somebody on your admin staff carry a beeper!.) Since The Thing couldn't/wouldn't help get the site down, Verio had to do it the only way they had to power to do, which was unplug the thing as a whole.

Verio didn't like having to do that, especially because it made them look like they wanted to take down hundreds of sites that had nothing to do with this situation. So, Verio decided they wanted to get out of this mess, so they used an out clause in their contract with The Thing.

Dow only wanted one site shut down... it's Verio who's walking out on The Thing as a whole.

Might as well go after Universal Pictures too by Powercntrl · 2003-01-01 08:12 · Score: 1

The movie Problem Child 2 has a scene where LaWanda Dumore is going through Junior's file which has most of his shenanigans from the first movie and also reveals... He's the one resposible for the Union Carbide plant explosion.

Of course, when you're a movie studio, your right to parody is backed up by your high priced lawyers.

--

---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.

Didn't you read my submission... by tres3 · 2003-01-01 08:14 · Score: 1

From a response below...

At first I was lured into thinking that this was Dow's response too. Then I started paying attention and even pointed out the fact in my submission that this (where you quoted from) was actually part of the parody site.

Pay attention. It's a two step process.
First -- Engage Brain.
Then -- Engage Mouth.

--
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!

Thank you, that's the very passage. . . by kfg · 2003-01-01 08:15 · Score: 1

I was indeed thinking of. Sounds rather distressingly like the state of the modern "wage earner," don'nit?

KFG

Corrections re Clinton by MacAndrew · 2003-01-01 08:16 · Score: 2

I'm no Clinton cheerleader, but I'm fairly sure every single one of your attributions to him is false. Also bear in mind that the President cannot single-handedly enact every policy.

* Torpedoing any serious effort to curb greenhouse gas emissions in the 1997 Kyoto agreement (thanks, Bill Clinton).

Bush torpedoed Kyoto immediately after taking office.

* Failing to tackle arsenic pollution in its own drinking water (currently at levels way above those that would be illegal in Europe and elsewhere) until 2004 (thanks again, Bill).

* Attempting to reverse that legislation, only to have it blow up in his face (thanks again, Dubya).

President Bush deserves the blame for repudiating action on arsenic permanently, Clinton for leaving it until the 11th hour. At least Clinton put it on the table -- Bush never will because of the mining interests.

* Reversing an age-old bi-partisan policy of demanding more fuel effieciency from car makers (Bill again).

Age-old? CAFE has been essentially frozen since President Reagan. Clinton might have failed to raise it, but in face of a very hostile Congress.

* Exempting SUVs from having to meet the same minimum mileage requirements of other cars (Bill again).

No. The "exemption" (lower standard actually) was practically why SUV's and minivans were invented in the eighties, not the other way around. Notice how station wagons, subject to car standards, disappeared long ago? The lax standard was intended to favor pickups in rural areas and the like, not a fleet of urban vehicles. Cheap fuel prices and style perferences have accelerated adoption of SUV's.

Is this guy Related to Hitler? by Newer+Guy · 2003-01-01 08:34 · Score: 2

"We are being portrayed as a heartless giant which doesn't care about the 20,000 lives lost due to Bhopal over the years," said Dow President and CEO Michael D. Parker. "But this just isn't true. Many individuals within Dow feel tremendous sorrow about the Bhopal disaster, and many individuals within Dow would like the corporation to admit its responsibility, so that the public can then decide on the best course of action, as is appropriate in any democracy. "Unfortunately, we have responsibilities to our shareholders and our industry colleagues that make action on Bhopal impossible. And being clear about this has been a very big step." This Parker guy is truly evil. He has no conflict whatsoever about what he's doing . He even admits it within his comments. "Many others" might be outraged that Dow is responsible for the deaths and suffering of thousands and thousands of people, but not Mr. Parker! The fact then Dow is (then) able to use the DMCA to cut off discussion of their nightmarish deeds gives the perfect example of why this evil law needs to be overturned.... NOW!!!

Re:Is this guy Related to Hitler? by HiThere · 2003-01-01 10:29 · Score: 3, Informative

That was the spoof site. They didn't actually say that, they merely lived it.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

How does it feel to be sheep? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:40 · Score: 0

Why do you think that people have less rights than corporations?

Corporate US can breathe easier knowing people like you are there to jerk their knees to defend them.

Why don't you say "Baaa Baaa" after every post just to remind yourself of what you do and why?

I'll tell you why by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 08:44 · Score: 0

Because we're better and smarter than the rest of the world.

I laugh at you and your envy.

A "just kidding" notice on The Onion by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 08:45 · Score: 2

Their own FAQ starts off with...

"The Onion is a satirical weekly publication published 47 times a year on Thursdays."

Also on the same page:
"The Onion uses invented names in all its stories, except in cases where public figures are being satirized. Any other use of real names is accidental and coincidental."

I am the author/submitter and... by tres3 · 2003-01-01 08:51 · Score: 1

Although Dow's response is a parody the story is still valid because the story is about DOW using the DMCA to force Verio to terminate service to The Thing, RTMark, and The Yes Men. The copyright and trademark issues may or may not be valid regardless of the DMCA but it is the DMCA that provides DOW with a means to have the upstream provider cancel their service.

Next: the protestors are being sued for interrupting work at the DOW offices in India not for transporting pollutants back to the corporate source.

Finally: a more recent poster lays a pretty good foundation that DOW has paid everything that the courts have ordered and then some.

Conclusion: This is slashdot!! It's not like this is an unbiased group of people here -- anymore than Greenpeace or The Yes Men. What we do here on slashdot is discuss, argue, debate, criticize, demean, curse, and provide links to more information so that we can all become better informed. Thanks for your contribution!

In response to your response below as to why it is being covered up on the Internet how about this fact: it happened in 1984. Back then the Internet was for government and Universities only -- NOT news organizations.

--
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!

Re:I am the author/submitter and... by bm_luethke · 2003-01-01 14:00 · Score: 1

Although Dow's response is a parody the story is still valid because the story is about DOW using the DMCA to force Verio to terminate service to The Thing, RTMark, and The Yes Men.

The problem is that nearly the entierty of you r argument about this being evil is not from dow. Just because the DMCA was invoked does it make it bad, in this case it was already covered under traditional copyright law. If the links provided in the beginning had been valid then I would agree with what you said, the single response that is actually from dow is actually rather valid.

Finally: a more recent poster lays a pretty good foundation that DOW has paid everything that the courts have ordered and then some.

umm, ok - you just seemed to give an argument against what you said and has nothing to do with what I said (or at least what I meant, maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been). I actually agree with greenpeace (and beleive me when I say that is about the only time I will say this in my life) that DOW got off easy, the courts did not fine them NEAR what they should (and hence the "get away with it" line).

Conclusion: This is slashdot!!

ohh, so since this is slashdot we should be happy to have misinformation spread around? I suppose that means reposts == slashdot == good also? Or any of the other myriad stuff one typically wades through to get anything usefull? The problem I had was just that, intentional or not, you seemed to beleive greenpeace totally correct and used "evidence" that you even knew was a farce to prove a point.

--
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it

Dow complaint seems valid by geekee · 2003-01-01 08:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

If anyone bothers to read the Dow complaint pdf, they'll note that Dow is suing for trademark infringement, and for sqatting on dow-chemical.com. I don't know what the law says about using a companies trademarks in a parody, but I can see where they'd have a case. Their website name claim is clearly valid as well. If you're going to make a parody site, you should do so within the law. I can see why their ISP dropped them.

--
Vote for Pedro

Re:Dow complaint seems valid by grishnav · 2003-01-01 10:35 · Score: 1

A lawful use of a trademark as a parody must comment on or inform the original use of the mark by the mark's owner. from http://articles.corporate.findlaw.com/articles/fil e/articles/dlo/dlo000012/title/Subject/topic/Intel lectual%20Property%20Law_Trademark/filename/intell ectualpropertylaw_1_237 They were commenting on the actions of Down, and therefore, were legally using the marks (just as long as the disclaimed it all somewhere). Now, were they selling T-Shirts, or worse, gases, no.
Re:Dow complaint seems valid by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 15:59 · Score: 2

(just as long as the disclaimed it all somewhere)

Fatal Error: Disclaimer not found.

So let me get this straight... by Newer+Guy · 2003-01-01 08:52 · Score: 2

1 Dow contaminates the soil. 2 The women scoop up the souil that DOW HAS CONTAMINATED and brings it back to Dow. 3 Dow sues the women for returing the soil that THEY (Dow) contaminated. And you think that Dow's right here? Expect to get a call form ther president offering you a job, 'cause you're no better then him!

Re:So let me get this straight... by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 09:31 · Score: 2

And you think that Dow's right here?

Yes, I do. The waste was not delivered to Dow as a corporation in some abstract sense - it wss delivered to a bunch of poor working stiffs trying to make a living. The fact that they work for Dow does NOT make them a free target for an assualt like this.

I was going to, but. . . by kfg · 2003-01-01 08:58 · Score: 3, Funny

I was afraid the symbol might be trademarked and I'd get sued for using it in an unapproved fashion.

KFG

How the DMCA got involved by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 09:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

This kind of misrepresentation and use of Dow's trademarks in a way that makes people thing The Yes Men's site belonged to Dow has always been illegal under assorted trademark and copyright laws, and has nothing to do with the DMCA.

Where the DMCA kicks in is the takedown provisions. Dow called Verio and said "Get this off the Web now!" and Verio was required to honor that request. Verio tried calling The Thing, but they weren't available because they had shut down for the day and didn't leave anyway to contact anyone in control. Verio had no way to delete the site other than to pull their whole line, so they did.

Eventually The Thing pulled the illegal site, and Verio restored access. However, because The Thing caused this whole mess by not having somebody on call who could respond to the takedown demand, they downtime was theirs even though Verio is taking the blame. Verio has now decided they don't want to do business with The Thing anymore, because they don't like being blamed for their customer's inactions.

MOD PARENT DOWN -1 OFF-TOPIC by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 09:11 · Score: 2

Sorry, what you say is true, but even people who are truely the first poster aren't allowed to say "First Post!" without being modded down.

Unfortunately for him... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:15 · Score: 0

The CEO of DOW is probably the same bloke that was CEO of Union Carbide..!

Well, maybe not, but don't you think that the CEO of DOW didn't know of it? And, knowing of these actions, did he reduce compensation/fire the ass of the CEO of Union Carbide?

No? then he's still culpable. Remember, CEOs get post of money, because the buck stops there, and he's in a demanding job. Correct?

Should ink manufacturers get in too? by abe+ferlman · 2003-01-01 09:39 · Score: 2

Just think of all the middle men who are critical to you saying anything in print, but who are being left out of the veto chain.

Ink manufacturers, paper manufacturers, font foundries, phone companies, monitor manufacturers, disk manufacturers, etc.

I didn't click the EULA on the fscking first amendment, so I'd appreciate it if the government would stop writing laws that give corporations the right to decide whether my speech is reasonable or not. If it's a business they're running, they should stick to their business and stay out of mine.

--
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...

Re:Should ink manufacturers get in too? by antistuff · 2003-01-01 14:10 · Score: 1

can you please explain your sig

--
Mess Stuff Up
Re:Should ink manufacturers get in too? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 16:01 · Score: 0

can you please explain your sig

Sure, but I'm posting anonymously since this is obviously off topic here.

It's a response to the idea that the GPL (General Public License - see www.gnu.org for info) is "viral" so we should use a different license for free software - the one most often offered as an alternative is the BSD license, because it allows the creation of non-free derivative works (hence, the derivative works don't catch the "freedom virus", get it?)

But the only difference between the GPL license and the BSD license is that with the BSD license, you are allowed to make a derivative work and stop others from redistributing the combined work, but with the GPL you are not.

So the only advantage of the BSD license is that you are free to restrict the freedoms of others by making closed-source and patent-encumbered derivative works, but that this freedom is non-viral; that is, for any derivative work in question, once you've used the freedom, it's all gone- there's none left for anyone else.
Re:Should ink manufacturers get in too? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 17:41 · Score: 0

Now that youve explained it, its kinda funny.

This organization is getting sued, too by release7 · 2003-01-01 09:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

It ain't easy doing battle with the big boys.

This owners of this web site, www.slaverready.com is also getting sued. Not for the content of the site but because the logo on the site supposedly infringes on Labor Ready's logo. What a bunch of BS.

You may not be able to fight city hall but you can't fight corporations without getting crushed.

--

<a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>

Good. by Chris+Johnson · 2003-01-01 09:43 · Score: 2

Let's see them thrown in jail with lots of publicity- provided the WHOLE story is told.

In news today, terrorist group The Yes Men are threatened with jail for impersonating representatives of Dow Chemical. The Yes Men sent email and built a web site parodying Dow's recent lawsuit against Bhopal survivors.
The lawsuit was brought when 200 women survivors of the Bhopal chemical disaster brought toxic waste to Dow corporate offices in Bombay. The protest was said to be peaceful and nonviolent. Under Indian law, Dow inherits responsibility for criminal acts of Union Carbide, which it acquired. The survivors have been in fruitless negotiations with Dow headquarters in Mumbai for over a year, in efforts to persuade the company to undertake cleanup of the disaster site.
The disaster of almost 20 years ago left tonnes of toxic waste on the plant site, which still remains and is leaching into the ground water of the area. Union Carbide did not clean up the toxic waste, though they did pay a settlement to the Indian government in 1989 that amounted to a few hundred dollars for each person affected, injured or killed by the continuing disaster. Health care costs for those living in the area with the toxic waste have rapidly passed this figure. Dow has expressed its regret and states that it cannot justify the expense of a cleanup of the disaster site.
Back in the US, the Yes Men are looking at jail sentences for their activities- which largely consist of putting cruder words in the mouths of Dow representatives to justify actions Dow is actually taking. The lesson for all of us- it's not what you say, it's how you say it!
Over to you, Binky...

And that's not a parody at all...
:)

Troll Alert! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 09:46 · Score: 0

I think you're trolling at this point, but:

(1) You're saying that Dow employees are not representatives of Dow because they're "poor working stiffs"?

(2) What "assault"? Returning Dow property (spilled chemicals) to a Dow office?

What the fuck?

Do you as a person expect to be able to walk down the street, randomly shooting pedestrians - and when the police turn up claim to be a "poor working stiff"? ("Oh! well, that's alright then, carry on shooting people".)

No. This would not happen.

So why should Dow have the manufactured freedom to kill thousands of people and escape any responsibility for their actions?

Re:Troll Alert! by MWoody · 2003-01-01 13:15 · Score: 2

(I hesitate to respond, as I suspect this is some sort of weird reverse-psychology troll, but WTF)

OK, so when you, as an American (I'm assuming), are assassinated for our actions overseas by a random terrorist, I certainly hope your relatives feel the same way. We certainly hope they won't go crying that you were just an innocent civilian/working stiff who just happened to belong to the organization/country with which the killers had a problem. After all, if you had problems with the conduct of the organization as a whole, you'd have moved/quit.

The simple fact is that corporations the size of DOW employ tens of thousands of people, the vast majority of which are not only innocent, but most likely completely unaware of any corporate misconduct. There are people here who deserve to have biological waste shoveled down their pants, but the chance of them being the same people who have to accept this crap when it's dropped on their workplace doorstep are very slim.
Re:Troll Alert! by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 14:27 · Score: 2

(1) You're saying that Dow employees are not representatives of Dow because they're "poor working stiffs"?

Yup. They had NOTHING to do with the decisions made by Union Carbide some 25-30 years ago when this Bhopal facility was being planned. Making some low level employee of one company accountable for the actions of another company acquired in a financial transaction is the most perverse, twisted notion I have ever encountered.

(2) What "assault"? Returning Dow property (spilled chemicals) to a Dow office?

Yup. Somebody dropping chemical waste into my immediate environment surely qualifies as an assault on me.

Do you as a person expect to be able to walk down the street, randomly shooting pedestrians

Nope. Now please explain to me how this has anything with a receptionist working for Dow in India.

So why should Dow have the manufactured freedom to kill thousands of people and escape any responsibility for their actions?

Dow didn't kill any of these people. A company that Dow acquired 2 years ago in a financial transaction made some mistakes - and Dow now inherits the liabilities associated with those mistakes.

That does not justify criminal acts against Dow in any way.
Re:Troll Alert! by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 14:39 · Score: 2

After all, if you had problems with the conduct of the organization as a whole, you'd have moved/quit.

So if some terrorist decides that my country has offended him in some gross way, and kills me because I happen to be a citizen of that country, it is my fault for not leaving that country?

Are you totally cracked? Insane? Nuts?

Sure, there are plenty of things I don't agree with in the way my country conducts itself. But does that mean I must leave the country? What a crock! Haven't you ever heard of the concept of trying to change things as a constructive member of society?

The fact of the matter is that there will ALWAYS be somebody that has an axe to grind against any large organization. There is no country on Earth that is satisfactory to every human on the face of the planet. So if you feel this action is ok, then we are consigned to random violence and anarchy forever.

The question is how are you going to resolve the problem. Is killing randown citizens (and yes children who have no say in where they live) the answer? If you think yes, then you have eschewed every civilized principle that seperates modern man from primitive.
Re:Troll Alert! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 16:17 · Score: 0

You probably missed some of the back story of why the protestors delived the contaminated dirt to Dow so let me fill you in. Dow chemical has held the position that the soil was perfectly safe for living on and growing things on so they refused to pay for the clean up of the soil, The people who live in the affected area are too poor to fight Dow in the legal arena so they think, "hey, if Dow thinks this soil is perfectly fine and safe they won't mind if we give them some of it." Now cut to where Dow is sueing the people who delivered the dirt for trying to poison them with the contaminated dirt, now try to notice the comical irony.
Re:Troll Alert! by ReaperOfSouls · 2003-01-01 17:02 · Score: 1

Yup. They had NOTHING to do with the decisions made by Union Carbide some 25-30 years ago when this Bhopal facility was being planned.

Correct, but they are now responsible for the enviornmental impact, that the plant has caused. If you choose to work for a corperation that does not own up to its responsibilities and are aware of this, ethically you are as guilty as the CEO.

Making some low level employee of one company accountable for the actions of another company acquired in a financial transaction is the most perverse, twisted notion I have ever encountered.

No one made the single Dow employee that ventured out in the to Bombay parking lot acountable. Neither did any of the protesters hurl the tainted soil at the "poor working stiff". There was no physical attack of any sort. Nor was the the employee halled of in shackles because of the sins of his employer.

Yup. Somebody dropping chemical waste into my immediate environment surely qualifies as an assault on me.

The protesters were not inside the building. They didn't scoop up the tainted soil and plop it on any one's desk. They didn't drop bits in the coffee filters. In essance, for the past two years, the protesters, have been forced to live in the waste that dow is so fearful of. And obviously that was the point of the protest. The protesters brought a sample of the tainted soil as a symbol, if the company's employees would not have anything to do with it, why should those souls have to live in it?

The point of the matter is that Dow does not feel it is responsible for the results of negligence and ineptitue that its purchased company commited. If Dow had just purchased UC rescently and pledged to clean up the mess, I would agree that they have no copablility here, but the fact of the matter is that they have owned UC for nearly two years. They have made no efferts to clean up the mess and completely renounced any responsibility in cleaning up the mess.

Dow didn't kill any of these people. A company that Dow acquired 2 years ago in a financial transaction made some mistakes - and Dow now inherits the liabilities associated with those mistakes.

Yes you are correct, they did not kill the anyone due to the original spill, but in the the past 2 years they have, through negligence, continued to forgo the oppertinuty to make right what was the responsibility of the company it purchased. As you stated, they now own the liability of UC, which they currently deny responibility for.

That does not justify criminal acts against Dow in any way.

There were no criminal charges brough forward. Dow is suing for time lost. It is a tort, not a criminal acusation. If they were violent, or destructive in this case, Dow's actions would not be so deplorable. The fact of the matter is they did not stand in the way of Dow going about its business. Peacefully protesting the criminal neglect commited by a corperation should always be protected.

Bottom line. Dow bought UC, because of its profit potential. Actually last year Dow's revenues raised nearly 5%. The survivors of the tragedy, cannot sue UC. UC is now part of dow, and because of that fact dow is now responsible for cleaning up.

--
Shameless self promotion : The Misadvetures of the in
Re:Troll Alert! by MWoody · 2003-01-01 19:02 · Score: 1

It was sarcasm. Read the parent (by Anonymous Coward, unless I've screwed up my reply). Read my reply. Take an English class. Realize we agree.

Swept away by Forgotten · 2003-01-01 09:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

The amazing thing to me is that no mainstream media seems to have picked up that astonishing, week-old "Dow sues protestors" story. It doesn't seem to exist outside of indie and activist sites. Guess that's not the sort of anniversary they want to allude to this time of year? Another reason to hate xmas, I suppose - it makes the media even more useless than it usually is.

Re:Swept away by LostCluster · 2003-01-01 16:33 · Score: 2

Either that, or the other explanation that's been floated around here.

Since only the indie and activist sites are reporting it, is it just an urban legend? I'd assume that the major networks would have sent an intern to dig for any additional information beyond these less-than-reliable websites. However, if that intern came back with "Dow says they didn't file such a lawsuit, and I can't seem to find anybody who other than the activist sites you gave methat say otherwise." I doubt the story would make it into a 30 minute newscast.

"Web rumor turns out to not have any proof behind it" doesn't exactly make the news.

UNION CARBIDE, NOT DOW!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:05 · Score: 0

The Bhopal accident occurred at a Union Carbide plant.

Dow Chemical bought Union Carbide two years ago. DOW CHEMICAL HAS A GOOD SAFETY HISTORY AND WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE BHOPAL ACCIDENT.

Their current actions are reprehensible, but Dow Chemical DID NOT kill anyone in Bhopal.

Two wrongs, three wrongs? by phorm · 2003-01-01 10:14 · Score: 1

But three lefts make a right... and vise versa.
I guess 3 wrong turns would make a right also? :-)

good points, but not entirely true by Stu+Charlton · 2003-01-01 10:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

" leveraged buyouts and hostile takeovers , all done on a global scale, were already a century or more of old news before the first shot of the revolution was fired on the green at Lexington."

This isn't entirely true. Large-scale corporations (the size of Hudson Bay or East Indian, which were exceptions) didn't really emerge until the late 1800's.

Another note is the fundamental disconnect in power between management and shareholder. Certainly businesses started with owners that "hired hands" to run the place. But eventually (WW2 and beyond) management rose as a distinct discipline and practice. Management held a tremendous amount of what could be almost called "illegitimate" power.. that is, until the backlash of hostile takeovers of the 1970's and 80's. Hostile takeovers before this time were quite rare... and it's really what started the whole "maximize shareholder value" fad we hear about today -- if you don't keep your stock price up, you'll get raided.

--
-Stu

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by jtcampbell · 2003-01-01 10:32 · Score: 1

This analysis of the situation in China is completely bogus.
China happends to have approximately 3 times the population of the USA - yet still only produces 13% of the CO2 emissions versus 20% for the USA.
A more "fair" comaprison pollution/GDP Per Capita, as opposed to your comparison of pollution/gross GDP.

Much more than 800... they were 2000 or 4000 ppl! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 10:37 · Score: 0

I can't recall for sure if 2000 or 4000 were killed, but surely it was not "only" 800.

The way things go one of these days Union Carbide will be invited to India again.

And how, for God's sake, can someone be so stupid (not to mention other things) as to actually buy such installation?

Ever since that terrible incident I've been avoiding Union Carbide (Eveready) products. Dow now has a fan, too.

You know, the average American can be a very fair guy, very reasonable, well-intentioned, even non-belligerant... these corporations, though, create your image throughout the world.

Think Ferenghi.

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by NexusTw1n · 2003-01-01 10:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yes, the US is the largest consumer of economic resources, and the largest polluter in the world. Be even if the US were to freeze it's CO2 emissions at 1990 levels, it would little to impact world CO2 levels or growth of those levels. That growth is coming from places outside the US

Nonsense.

According to the UN :

"China has, despite economic growth estimated at 36 per cent, managed to reduce it carbon dioxide emissions by 17 per cent since 1996/97. "

"A study by scientists at the Lawrence Berkley National Laboratory in California concludes that China's C02 emissions are already 400 to 900 million tonnes below what was expected in 2000 which is approximately equivalent to all C02 emissions from Canada, at the low end of the range, or Germany, at the high end of the estimate. "

"In the United States, which at 23 per cent has the highest share of global C02 emissions, levels of the greenhouse gas have grown from 4.8 billion tonnes in 1990 to over 5.4 tonnes in 1998

China is doing all it can to reduce its emissions, the US is still increasing its pollution."

Like much of the world, China is doing something about C02, which is a good job, because the US's refusal to work with the Kyoto Protocol is embarrassing.

Source

--
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein

you're statistics are selective by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 11:08 · Score: 0

First of all, the Communist Bloc in eastern Europe and Soviet Russia polluted the world far worse, and killed far more people as a result, than the USA ever has. Ever heard of Chernobyl? How about Romania? Siberia?

Second, take a look at your car mileage statistics, vs. car safety. When auto manufacturers were mandated to create lighter cars, accident fatalities went UP. That's one reason SUV's are so popular: the large body protects the occupants far better than your pathetic little Echo.

You don't want people to be safe. You just want them to be equally miserable.

Dow's influence in Michigan Dioxin cleanup... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 12:10 · Score: 0

fails so far.

Look closely at what the outgoing Michigan Governor intended to do: preferentially decide
that maximum dioxin levels should be doubled
just for Dow's sake.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5 61 87-2002Dec30.html

Downhill from here by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 12:27 · Score: 0

Corruption, Greed and Presidents with Sub-100 IQs have become so commonplace in the US that in 100 years American will be another pissy minicountry with the same sort of importance as Pakistan. Dow should stick to slowly killing women with leaky breast implants. Sure the devil has some nice live-flaying devices ready for Dow executives when they step in front of a bus, or their shamed kids push them. and who can blame them?

i'm a linux user by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 12:44 · Score: 0

i don't obey laws

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 12:50 · Score: 2

According to the UN...

A number of sources claim this data is phoney. In particular China is widely believed to be underreporting coal consumption. In fact, the combined reduction in CO2 emissions and increase in economic activity that China is claiming is without precedent in world history, and as such is extremely unlikely to be anything close to the truth.

Here is what the WWF says about China's greenhouse gas status:

Overview

The 1990s was the hottest decade in the past millennium. CO2 emissions worldwide are now around 12 times higher than they were in 1900 as the world burns increasing quantities of coal, oil and gas for energy. The global temperature build-up is seriously disrupting the natural balance of the world's climate, creating more extreme weather conditions and putting one-third of the world's forests at risk, as well as the species that depend on forests for their survival.

China currently accounts for 13% of the global carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, ranking second after the US. Although China signed the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, commitments have yet to be made in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. In the past two decades, China has experienced massive economic development and social change. With an average economic growth rate of 9% per year, the energy system plays a central role in shaping development in industry, agriculture, and the service sectors.

China has achieved considerable progress in improving energy efficiency and CO2 emissions reduction. However, 70% of energy production is still dependent on coal, and demand for automobiles is growing fast. China¦s challenge will be to shift its energy mix into a cleaner path, particularly in the development and dissemination of new and renewable energy technologies, and promoting structural change for more efficient energy use.

Basic facts

* China is set to overtake the US (at 21%) as the biggest producer of greenhouse gases by 2025 unless current trends are modified.

* 7 of the world's 10 most polluted cities are in China

* economic losses and health costs due to pollution alone are equal to 8% of China's GDP (source: the World Bank)

* acid rain in China is widespread, causing severe damage to crops and forests

* more than 70% of China's energy production is from burning coal

Key threats

* Use of unsustainable energy sources, such as coal and oil, which leads to air and water pollution and global warming

* Non-sustainable consumption patterns and wasteful use of energy

Another interesting that seems to slip through the cracks is that the "former Soviet Union" countries emit more greehouse gases than the US does.

And here is another good one - while the US emissions grew 5% over the period of 1995-2001, The emissions per GDP went down 11%.

Also you might want to look at the other signatories of the Kyoto convention, and what their performance is. For example Japan has been recently averaging a 1.1% growth in greenhouse gas emissions per year - and that's for a country that is essentially economically stagnant.

Nevertheless... by Mike+A. · 2003-01-01 13:33 · Score: 1

when Down acquired Union Carbide, they acquired all of Union Carbide's unmet responsibilities. Trying to keep the assets of Union Carbide and ignore the liabilities is grossly irresponsible - that is to say, typical corporate behavior.

--

--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?

Groups are merely collections of people..... by Subspace · 2003-01-01 13:43 · Score: 1

A corporation is a group of people that do have individual rights. They can choose to exercise those rights as a group.

True, but that doesn't imply that a group itself should have similar rights independent of the members.

Show me in the Constitution - or in any amendment - where such an idea can be derived.

In looking just at the amendments, I see many references to rights granted to person(s)/people:

"...right of the people peaceably to assemble..."

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons..."

"No person shall be held to answer..."

"...nor shall any person be subject..."

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

"All persons born or naturalized...are citizens of the United States.... nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property...nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Nothing much said in there nor implied about collections or groups of people. (Save the Senate and House.)

Now I grant that we (the People) can grant collections... groups... businesses... corporations... certain rights and responsibilities - as well we should. But nothing in Constitutional Law states that the rights of a collection... group... business... etc.... trumps the rights of a person.

The day that the Constitution acknowledges a corporation over an individual, I'll leave this land for a free country.

Re:Groups are merely collections of people..... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 06:34 · Score: 0

>> The day that the Constitution acknowledges a corporation over an individual, I'll leave this land for a free country.

How about Disney's corporate ownership of a dead individual's creation (e.g. Walt's Mickey Mouse)?
Re:Groups are merely collections of people..... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 18:05 · Score: 0

The day that the Constitution acknowledges a corporation over an individual, I'll leave this land for a free country.

Let me know when you find one.

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by the+eric+conspiracy · 2003-01-01 14:09 · Score: 2

A more "fair" comaprison pollution/GDP Per Capita, as opposed to your comparison of pollution/gross GDP.

That is just not right. Per capita comparisons in greenhouse gas production do not reflect the real, important goal - sustainable economic development. Sure, China has a much lower per capita greenhouse gas consumption - but China as is still a developing country with a rapidly growing economy.

The real goal is minimization of energy consumption per dollar of GDP, not just stopping CO2 emissions. That we could do (at great human cost) by simply turning everything off. If we cut emissions per $ GDP, we can actually improve the human condition.

blah blah blah USA sucks blah blah wah by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 14:16 · Score: 0

That's what you get when you produce 26% of the world's goods. With 4% of its population, no less.

Time to get your statistics straight, and try looking at the whole picture next time, instead of just what you want to see.

Re:Another vote against "The Yes Men" by Grax · 2003-01-01 14:56 · Score: 1

by putting Copyright The Dow Company haven't they turned over their rights to the "parody" to Dow, who I assume would want to exercise those rights by taking it offline?

--
Coding Blog

THIS IS ALL A HOAX, MORON by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 15:03 · Score: 0

Way to kneejerk to the beat, bonehead.

Meanwhile . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 15:26 · Score: 0

The guy that used to own my house killed a bunch of people . . .

Re:Another vote against "The Yes Men" by MacAndrew · 2003-01-01 15:28 · Score: 1

Cute. :) Well, Dow did exercise their rights regardless.

Boycott Dow?? by Black+Copter+Control · 2003-01-01 16:26 · Score: 3, Informative

Dow is a Corporation. As such, they don't really respond to moral issues -- only financial issues that fall out of moral upsets. Saying "oh, Dow are nasty people" won't do much to get their attention. Cutting Dow purchases by 10%, on the other hand, would.

If you want to get Dow's attention, tell people to stop buying their produ cts, and tell them why. At the end of Dow's 2001 financial report, they have a partial list of Dow and associated company trademarks.

I peeled out that data, paired it with the company name, and then sorted the result.. If you want to boycott Dow products, these names would probably be a good start.

I'll also place a copy of this list on my website ( http://www.bcgreen.com/dow/trademarks.html) where I can update it as necessary. (147 references so far).
damn lameness filters force reformatting.

Affinity :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Amerchol :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Amplify :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Aspun :: The Dow Chemical Company
Attane :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Betabrace :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc.
Betadamp :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc. | | Betafoam :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc.
Betaguard :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc. | | Betamate :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc.
Betaseal :: Essex Specialty Products, Inc. | | Blox :: The Dow Chemical Company
Calibre :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Carbowax :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Cellosize :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Confirm :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Covelle :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Cyracure :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
D.E.H. :: The Dow Chemical Company | | D.E.N. :: The Dow Chemical Company
D.E.R. :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Daxad :: Hampshire Chemical Corp.
Derakane :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Derakane Momentum :: The Dow Chemical Company
Dithane :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Dow :: The Dow Chemical Company
Dowex :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Dowfax :: The Dow Chemical Company
Dowflake :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Dowlex :: The Dow Chemical Company
Dowper :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Dowtherm :: The Dow Chemical Company
Drytech :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Dursban :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Elite :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Emerge :: The Dow Chemical Company
Envision :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Ethafoam :: The Dow Chemical Company
Ethocel :: The Dow Chemical Company | | FilmTec :: FilmTec Corporation
FirstRate :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Flexomer :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Fortress :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Fulcrum :: The Dow Chemical Company
Garlon :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Gas/Spec :: INEOS plc
Glyphomax :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Goal :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Grandstand :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Great Stuff :: Flexible Products Company
Hamposyl :: Hampshire Chemical Corp. | | Immotus :: The Dow Chemical Company
Insite :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Inspire :: The Dow Chemical Company
Insta-stik :: Flexible Products Company | | Instill :: The Dow Chemical Company
Intacta :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Integral :: The Dow Chemical Company
Intrepid :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Isonate :: The Dow Chemical Company
Isoplast :: The Dow Chemical Company | | LP Oxo :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Lamdex :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Lifespan :: The Dow Chemical Company
Liquidow :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Lontrel :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Lorsban :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Magnum :: The Dow Chemical Company
Maxicheck :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Maxistab :: The Dow Chemical Company
Meteor :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Methocel :: The Dow Chemical Company
Mimic :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Mustang :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Mycogen :: Mycogen Corporation | | Neocar :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Opticite :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Optim :: The Dow Chemical Company
PAX System :: Michelin North America, Inc. | | Papi :: The Dow Chemical Company
Peladow :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Pellethane :: The Dow Chemical Company
PhytoGen :: PhytoGen Seed Company | | Polyox :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Polyphobe :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Prevail :: The Dow Chemical Company
Primacor :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Procite :: The Dow Chemical Company
Pulse :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Quash :: The Dow Chemical Company
Questra :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Redi-Link :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Responsible Care :: American Chemistry Council | | Retain :: The Dow Chemical Company
Safe- Tainer :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Saran :: The Dow Chemical Company
Saranex :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Sentricon :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Shac :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Si-Link :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
SiLK :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Spectrim :: The Dow Chemical Company
Spider :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Starane :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Stinger :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Strandfoam :: The Dow Chemical Company
Strongarm :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Styrofoam :: The Dow Chemical Company
Styron :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Styron A-Tech :: The Dow Chemical Company
Syltherm :: Dow Corning Corporation | | Synergy :: The Dow Chemical Company
Syntegra :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Tanklite :: The Dow Chemical Company
Telone :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Tergitol :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
The Enhancer :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Thermax :: The Dow Chemical Company
Tone :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Tordon :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Tracer Naturalyte :: Dow AgroSciences LLC | | Treflan :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Trenchcoat :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Triton :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Trycite :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Trymer :: The Dow Chemical Company
Tuflin :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Tyril :: The Dow Chemical Company
UCAR :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | UCAT :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
UCON :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Ucartherm :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Unigard :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Unipol :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Unipurge :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries | | Unival :: Union Carbide Corporation, & subsidiaries
Versene :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Vikane :: Dow AgroSciences LLC
Voracor :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Voralast :: The Dow Chemical Company
Voralux :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Voranate :: The Dow Chemical Company
Voranol :: The Dow Chemical Company | | Voranol Voractiv :: The Dow Chemical Company
Vydyne :: Solutia Inc. | | Woodstalk :: Dow BioProducts Ltd.
Zetabon :: The Dow Chemical Company

--
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.

Re:USA - the world's biggest polluter. So what's n by sg_oneill · 2003-01-01 19:36 · Score: 2

To the dickhead mod who moded that as -1 flamebait, grow up. It's a well researched informative post, and most importantly it's true.

*Man* the danger of computers deciding who gets moderation is that sometimes assholes get the trigger.

--
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.

DMC eh? by jeeryg_flashaccess · 2003-01-01 19:43 · Score: 1

So the dow-checmical.com website was put up only to be taken down a short time later. Hmmm, they could have planned THAT better...and they did!

Reamweaver seems to serve a malicious purpose to those who use it for that. Consider that it may have been their intent to "violate" the DMCA just to get exposure (PRESS coverage).

So what is the question that every activist should be asking themselves right now? It's...

"How can the DMCA help my cause?"

--
Life is like pants... fit in or you don't fit in.

DOW & VERIO ARE BUTT BUDDIES by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 19:43 · Score: 0

Both dow and verio(who supports spam wholeheartedly) can suck my cock. They are fucking evil bastards who should be wiped from the face of the earth. Dow should have been put out of business after Bhopal. They are obviously beyond the law after all their payoffs. Verio, get a conscience.

I am sick and tired of big business telling the citizens of the world how to live. I hope the protesters go in and burn down every DOW office building in India. And force their govt to keep Dow out.

SATAN GIVES CRUMMY BLOW JOBS

read this (supposed) dow chemicals internal memo by jean-guy69 · 2003-01-01 21:08 · Score: 1

Dow Addresses Bhopal Outwage, Explains Position

cynism at its best...

is this for real ?

Its been Said before, but by DjMd · 2003-01-01 22:07 · Score: 1, Redundant

The website was an affront to our right to Free Speech, and we immediately contacted the upstream provider for this false website, gently requesting that our rights be protected.

The provider, Verio, graciously complied with our letter citing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Not only did they shut down Dow-Chemical.com, but as a good corporate citizen, they agreed to shut down an entire network (Thing.net) of websites many of which, while unrelated to dow-chemical.com,

The web site was an "affront to our right to Free Speech".

So something someone else said was an affront to their right to free speech? How the hell is that possible? You can talk about slander and liable, but saying something on a web site is affecting their right to free speech?

"Not only did they shut down Dow-Chemical.com, but as a good corporate citizen", I don't have much to say here but good corporate citizen? God that just sends chills down my spine. Thank god for those corporate citizens who kowtow to their corporate betters.

"appear to serve no commercial purpose, being dedicated to the unproductive analysis and critique of society and corporate behaviour. "

How dare they! Serve no commercial purpose!

But the worst is the statement of what they do instead of serving a commercial purpose. Analysis and critique of society and corporate behavior?

All I can say is Thank God people do that! What the hell is wrong with Dow for saying any of that?

I used to think that freedom of speech was one of those protections for the little guy (individual), to keep the big guy(corps, and gov) from squelching his point of view.

America is truely becoming a corporate state, and this is just sad.

Sorry if its a tad over the top, up at 4 am will do that.

--
DJMD - The fourth man - Planetary

Here's a theme song... by herbierobinson · 2003-01-01 22:12 · Score: 2

I thought it was out of date, but sadly, it isn't.

Our House is Burnin' (2:57)

A fusion of African, Japanese and Classic Blues rhythms.
Lyrics. download mp3 (2.6MB).

--
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us

Actually by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-01 23:13 · Score: 0

You are missing the point, ignorant fool. We are not telling you what to eat/listen to. We are trying to provide a wake up call for people (not unlike yourself) to think about who/what they are supporting when they buy a McDonalds hamburger, or a music album. For some reason (personal, i suspect) you think we want to insult someone for liking McDonalds and Brittany spears. LOL!

I smell a liberal.

SCREW THE DMCA AND ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT! by DSL-Admin · 2003-01-02 02:45 · Score: 1

DMCA = Fat Angry Politicans who want more money and who are too chickenshit to earn it, so they steal it by whining like a little baby until they get their way... Another example of this crappy country's ability to get even worse..

Re:SCREW THE DMCA AND ALL THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT! by DSL-Admin · 2003-01-02 04:05 · Score: 1

Obviously. that was flamebait and a joke// I love to piss people off... now, on with the if you don't like then leave comments

IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 04:57 · Score: -1

Union Carbide sues YOU!

How is it written? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 05:39 · Score: 0

O , man, remember youre dust.

And to dust you shall return.

You, too, as white as you might be, are made out of mud.

Silly!

Dow indoctrination, "perception is reality" by mcdude · 2003-01-02 07:35 · Score: 1

When I graduated from college in 1991, I took a job as a programmer at Dow Chemical. At that time, they sent all new hires to a week-long indoctrination course, consisting mostly of how to carefully word memos and email so that The Company could not be harmed if the memos were brought up in court. This was during the time when their silicone breast implants were failing and customers were suing (and winning).

At first it all sounded like good business sense but gradually I realized what they were saying. One session drilled home the idea that "perception equals reality" - and therefore, if can make the public to PERCEIVE them as being safe and clean, and all will be good.

In other words, don't fix the problem, just word things so that The Company looks like it's doing the right thing, and so that they cannot be held liable for damages that it caused.

framers tried to do it in the failed 11th Amenment by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 21:33 · Score: 0

The complete story of how the corporations assumed legal status of human beings, with the 'right to lie' et al is given in
http://www.thomhartmann.com
http://www.reclai mdemocracy.org
These are good reads. It tells of Nike's current court case over their lying PR blitz about cleaning up their sweat shops, and they are not trying to prove they are not lying, but are in fact saying they have a right to lie just like humans.

363 comments