New and Improved - SmarTruck II

jmoriarty writes "The Army's next generation SmarTruck is on display in Detroit. The original version of the SmarTruck was covered back in May, but the Army now admits that version was 'hardly ready for the real world'. Apparently the real world version needed interchangable nodules, and the absolute must-have for every Slashdotter's vehicle - a 'hacker in a box'."

Comments

heh

[kin_korn_karn]

but can bill murray drive it back from eastern europe?

Re:heh

[neocon]

So how seriously are we supposed to take your analysis of Ari Fleischer and Don Rumsfeld when you can't even be bothered to find out how to spell their names right?

That aside, your proposal makes about zero sense -- as another poster has already mentioned, if the goal was cheap oil, there are a lot of cheaper and easier ways to get there from here, such as lifting the current sanctions on Iraqi oil exports.

Of course, since our goal isn't oil, it's preventing a madman from attacking us with WMD (or providing WMD to others to attack us with), that's not what we're doing.

Re:heh

[Timmeh]

So if WMDs are the issue why aren't we invading North Korea post haste? North Korea with a long, sordid history of selling all kinds of arms to anyone willing to buy? North Korea who is currently trying to restart their nuclear program?

Re:heh

[neocon]

A couple of reasons spring immediately to mind:

• North Korea is immensely dependent on us for food aid and heating oil, which means we have a lot of leverage we don't directly have in Iraq
• North Korea already has at least a few nukes, and better missile technology to use with them, which means that we have to be more careful -- this is exactly the type of situation we hope to avoid in Iraq, if it's not already too late.
• A decade of broken promises and ignored UN resolutions on the part of Iraq show that it is extremely unlikely that a diplomatic solution will do any good -- and we're still giving it a chance.
• Not every international problem needs to be solved the same way -- you guys like to claim that us Conservatives are the ones who see the same answer to every problem, so how do you not see this?

Despite all of these, if North Korea becomes the same level of threat to us as Iraq now is, have no fear that we will act. It has not yet done so, however.

Re:heh

[neocon]

First off, let's repeat the obvious: if our goal was to get oil from Iraq, we would need only to lift the UN sanctions to do so. That we have not done so demonstrates that this is not our goal.

Second, no serious scientist still believes that we will `run out' of oil anytime soon. Many oil fields have been discovered since Hubbert's time, and many existing fields have been shown to have higher capacity than previously believed. More to the point, new discoveries, such as the possibility of extracting oil from tar shoals have greatly increased estimates of the Earth's oil supply.

Are their good reasons (mostly geopolitical) to move away from oil? Sure. Do your chicken-little claims and black-helicopter conspiracy theories make any sense? Sorry, no.

SmarTruck The Next Generation...

[Anonvmous Coward]

"The Army's next generation SmarTruck is on display in Detroit..."

Thought we had a Star Trek parody here.

"Mr Data, when I said 'Fire at Will', I didn't mean for you to be so literal."

Re:SmarTruck The Next Generation...

[Triv]

Apparently the real world version needed interchangable nodules...

Thought we had a Star Trek parody here.

[treknerd] My treklore might be a bit fuzzy, but certain starships were designed this way - most starships from the retrofitted enterprise onward were designed with swappable bridge modules (which was basically an explanation as to why the Enterprise's bridge layout kept changing from movie to movie), but the most striking example of this was the nebula class - nacelles tucked right up under the saucer, shortened vertical engineering section and a huge mission definable pod mounted on its back. Survey mission? slide on a sensor pack. Goin' to war? Add some extra photon torpedo launchers and you're good to go.

They did something like this on DS9 with the runabouts as well, but that was because one episode had all three runabouts on screen at the same time and viewers needed to be able to visually tell the ships apart - one didn't have one, one glowed green and one glowed red (or something like that). Cute.

[/treknerd]

Triv

Re:SmarTruck The Next Generation...

[Anonvmous Coward]

Yeah you're right. You're also right about their motivation. They needed to have a reason why a.) The bridge that was on the top of the ship and b.) why bridges of various ships look so drastically different. They needed them to be different for the audience to know what they're watching.

In Star Trek 2, the Reliant was originaly going to be a Constitution class ship like the Enterprise. That would have been hard for the audience to watch, though, so they designed the Reliant without an engineering hull and a rollbar. Originally, though, the nacelles were going to point upwards like on the Enterprise, but when the design was handed in it was read upside-down. They liked the difference that it made having the nacelles hang from the ship. So they did one more re-design with those features in mind. Clever, eh?

That really waasn't the point of my joke, though. I wasn't commenting on the vehicle itself, just the wording in the article. It has 'SmarTruck', 'the', 'next', and 'generation' in the same line. :)

A great use...

[AltImage]

If I had one of these I would drive through Iraq shouting "All Your Base Are Mine" over the bullhorn.

Re:A great use...

[PW2]

A more effective thing to shout would be to take what you said and switch it around a little, "Mines are all around your base."

Is it me...

[altairmaine]

...or is the military run by 7-year-old boys? In third grade, I too would have been very excited about a truck with missile launchers and a huge artillery system termed "Crusader".

Don't even get me started on the names of operations. "Infinite Justice", anybody? It sounds like something out of the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers.

Re:Is it me...

[bluprint]

...are married with kids, etc

If this is an issue, maybe those people shouldn't be IN the reserves?

Sounds to me like you are pissed at finding out, after joining the reserves or National Guard, you might actually have to go to war. Maybe you should have thought about that before. The purpose of the reserves is not to just provide you with additional monthly income.

Re:Is it me...

[KUHurdler]

You were the same kid I killed in "Risk" every time I've played you. All the land you capture you leave ONE person on... then I go through and kill you all in one turn.

How about we keep our army here in the US protecting and training like they are supposed to. and when we need forces somewhere else, we call up the reserves to perform the duty they were trained to do.

Re:Is it me...

[Bo'Bob'O]

Hey, maybe this is built with the same principal as America's Army. See, next they'll start a TV series with Hulk Hulgen driving the thing around and stoping international bad guys. Then, they'll introduce a whole line of toys, with 'modulus' you can buy to add on to it.
But of course, the very coolest accessory, only seems to be available at your local army recruiter! Bring your dad in to the recruiters office and get the Ultimate Battle Pack for only $59.95!
I wonder if the Crusader comes with a submarine option, or a copter option?

- Tristan

Re:Is it me...

[bobdehnhardt]

Don't even get me started on the names of operations. "Infinite Justice", anybody?

I understand that the other names under consideration included:

• Operation Boot Up Your Ass
  
• Operation Get 'Em, Ray
  
• Operation Dessert Storm
  
• Operation Whatever Dick Said
  
• Operation Hey, You Can't Do That!
  
• Operation Okay, Now We're Really Pissed
  
• Operation Forget About The Economy
  

Re:Is it me...

[Master Bait]

That's what the Army is supposed to be, but I see so much evidence to the contrary -- especially how many reservists went overseas while the regular Army yokels stayed home playing with trucks and pushing paper.

It seems the regular Army is ill-prepared to project power overseas quickly because they always have to wait for the reserves to get called up, assigned and shipped out.

Re:Is it me...

[The Evil Couch]

Personally, I think the regular army is full of cowardly, fat-assed pussys. Everytime something dangerous comes up, such as the war with Afghanistan and the ever-pending war with Iraq, the Army calls up reserves and National Guard to do the real fighting. There are 1.4 million people in the regular armed forces, but when they need a force of 20,000 on the ground in Afghanistan, they call up the reserves. Most of the people in the reserves and National Guard are married with kids, etc. What's up with that?

Speaking as an active duty soldier, I can tell you that you're full of crap. The "real fighting" is over with before the reserves and national guard are done palletizing their gear. 90% of the deployments that the AR and NG gets sent out on, are "peace-keeping missions" ie a show of force so that we maintain a presence in those countries, without having to lose our fighting force and momentum. you honestly think that the army chief of staff would rather send out a group of weekend warriors that has fired their weapons maybe 4 times in the past year than the several divisions of troops that are training on a constant basis? shinseki's dumb, but he's not that stupid.

and before you rear up on your high horse about the AR and NG being married with kids, you're going to have to realize that the vast majority of the regular army, is married with kids, too. in fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find an sergeant or captain or above that's *not* married.

back on topic, I have no idea what the hell they were thinking of when they built that thing. it's not like we couldn't retrofit the stuff we've already got.

Re:Is it me...

[Master Bait]

I agree with you, but I see how keeping a standing 1.4 million Armed forces out of the battlefield is a waste of money when the political agenda calls for oversea's projection of power.

So then you agree that the regular Army is a club of fat-assed cowardly pussies?

Re:Is it me...

[miltimj]

How about we keep our army here in the US protecting and training like they are supposed to. and when we need forces somewhere else, we call up the reserves to perform the duty they were trained to do.

Okay, so to summarize: 1) Active duty army is protecting the US by being in the states 2) Active army is training 3) Reserves/NG is training 4) ...but reserves should go do the dirty work abroad as opposed to active duty, which is trained ten times more than the reserves...

That makes zero sense.

50,000 people out of 1.4 million active is hardly leaving one person on each territory.

Re:Is it me...

[miltimj]

Heh, I have to agree, with a few corrections (IMO, of course)..

I agree that the "real fighting" is over by the time they send in the Reserves/NG. However, maybe it's just my (ARNG) unit, but we've been evaluated alongside active duty units and were more superior (though I'm in a Signal unit, so most of it is due to many soldiers having full-time civilian technical jobs).

Thanks for jumping on the pathetic "married with kids" argument -- as if the regular army soldiers aren't "married with kids"! It reminds me of a quote from the lame movie "Speed" where the big guy says "I got kids", and another guy says, "yeah? well I'm single, so does that make me expendable?!?"

I also wonder why they didn't just dump this on the back of the HMMWV as yet another configuration.

Oh, and regarding the "7-year old boys" (parent post)... that's where the Army is now marketing with its "Army of One" campaign.. Coolness factor so it makes it seem more adventurous and fun to be in the Army.

Re:Is it me...

[glesga_kiss]

He. Reminds me of the sceens in Starship Troopers where the kids get shown the guns and other equipment and are encouraged to sign up.

A strong military presence in civilian life has always been a strong element in negative-utopia books and films. It symbolises brain-washing and propaganda, and the desire to have a massive army.

Personally, I think "America's Army" is a bad idea. It's kind of like using "Saving Private Ryan" as a recruitment. How many times do you get fragged in an evenings play of the game? Then you realise you only have one life in reality, so the last thing you want to do it join the military!

Re:Is it me...

[Nehemiah S.]

Wouldn't it be great if you if you were to drive to your nearest military installation and say that to someone's face? That would at least prove that YOU weren't a "cowardly pussy".

Actually, because the army teaches discipline and self-respect, you would probably just get laughed at by anyone in uniform. But drop by your local bowling alley or neighborhood bar and I guarantee that there will be a dozen or so army alumni present who would love to make you regret the fact that you exercised the freedom of speech that their sacrifices bought you.

Anyway your ideas on saving money are duly noted. Keep up the brilliant strategic thinking, please. It provides a source of mirth for those fat-assed cowardly people who actually have to make life or death decisions in order to keep you free.

Re:Is it me...

[Nehemiah S.]

There are only 480,000 active duty soldiers (i don't know where dumbass got 1.4 million). There are 55,000 permanently stationed in Germany, and about 70,000 permanently stationed in Korea. So 1 in 4 of our active duty force is already accounted for, and basically immobile unless absolutely threated by all-out conflict elsewhere.

References available from www.army.mil if you look for 5 minutes or so. Also everything you want to know about US military doctrine, which it might be good to learn something about before you post criticism in public (else you look quite silly to everyone but slashdot moderators).

Re:Is it me...

[Nehemiah S.]

Dude, smoke another joint and relax. There is no need to sound quite so self-righteous, even if you are right. Doubly so since your best argument is a straw man.

Anyway don't feel sorry for the "free education" guys- that is at best a misnomer (i.e. the academy is a $250,000 education, shoved up your ass a penny at a time) and at worst stupid. Everyone who signs up for a service academy knows that they could die for thir country, and those who do it for the free education either don't make it through their plebe year (because they discover how expensive the free education really is) or realize that there are more deeply gratifying motives than personal greed somewhere along the line.

Anyway what you leave out in your diatribe is the people who genuinely want to protect the country they love. When this requires aggression, then aggression is exercised (although force is a much better term to use since aggression is at best a loaded term and also quite inaccurate as a depiction of what motivates the average soldier). Anyway the use of force is quite rare; usually the nation's interests can be served through diplomacy, which only works if the diplomat has either a big stick or a few hundred cruise missiles to back up his words.

Re:Is it me...

[The Evil Couch]

I agree that the "real fighting" is over by the time they send in the Reserves/NG. However, maybe it's just my (ARNG) unit, but we've been evaluated alongside active duty units and were more superior (though I'm in a Signal unit, so most of it is due to many soldiers having full-time civilian technical jobs).

That's a good point that having a technicial civilian job (with an actual IT budget) would naturally make someone in the Signal Corps more proficient. I was thinking of it from an Infantry perspective, because that's what I am. While there are many jobs that can be replicated and done better in the civilian sector, there's no where else to get the type and frequency of training that the Infantry requires other than to go out to the field and lay waste to an objective or practice your patrols.

having an ammo budget that is simply unheard of in the Reserves/NG, I'd say that any line company can out perform their AR/NG counter part. It's simply a matter of training.

Though, I gotta tip my patrol cap to you guys. part time or not, you guys are soldiers and that makes you all right by me. especially if you're kicking the crap out of other units in evals. :D

Pepper Spray

[phorm]

which the military brass now acknowledges was eye-catching with a pop-up pepper spray

CowboyNeil: Hey Taco... those terrorists are getting really close, should we open up fire with the machine guns?
CmdrTaco: Nah 'Neil, let's just use the pepper spray, it worked great on those purse-snatchers back home.

Um yeah... pepper spray is useful, but I can't see it being used in many military situations when a fully-automatic gets the job better and has much more range. Unless they're going for disabling the enemy instead of mortally wounding, but even in that case there are probably things much better than pepper spray, especially considering range.

Re:Pepper Spray

[elixx]

Insert a chemical or biological agent of your choice into a base substance of similar consitency and you have yourself a bringer of mass death on wheels.
The pepper spray bit in the article is just to make you feel Warm And Fuzzy because you know how much They Care.

Re:Pepper Spray

[zulux]

Um yeah... pepper spray is useful, but I can't see it being used in many military situations when a fully-automatic gets the job better and has much more range. Unless they're going for disabling the enemy instead of mortally wounding, but even in that case there are probably things much better than pepper spray, especially considering range.


Non leathal weapons have some neet capabilites: you don't have to worry about firendly-fire. Just zap them all and sort them out at your leasure.

If someone looks suspicious - zap them first and ask questions later. No need to be coy, zap away!

Imagine this: A crowd of anti-american protesters starts protesting when we occupy France. With curent technology, you can do much if you don't want to be a murdurer. With with non-lethal weapons you could zap the whole crowd and process them one at a time - seperating common citiziens from the truly nasty McDonalds/Nike/Hollywood hating French terrorists.

Re:Pepper Spray

[sweetooth]

Pepper spray is probably more usefull against civillians than against terrorists/soldiers. I also wouldn't be surprised if that was the intent. Its probably for use against any non combatant that irritates you and you would get in trouble for killing.

Consider urban warfare. You could be facing attack from soldiers and civillians. While your standard weapons are perfect for mowing down enemy soldiers, there are political implications to mowing down civilians. Unless of course you are Isreal killing Palastenian civillians, then it's just collateral damage. Ok, political bias aside, that's probably the reason for pepper spray.

Geez, at a million bucks a peice that is one overpriced truck.

Re:Pepper Spray

[Tassach]

The military has a lot of interest in non-lethal weapons. There are a lot of situations where lethal force isn't a viable option, and situations where (as you note) you want to disable and capture, not kill, the opposition. Actually pepper spray is one of the more effective non-lethal chemical agents, particuarly in high concentrations and when combined with other disabling agents (tear gas).

Re:Pepper Spray

[MImeKillEr]

I would prefer to shoot gallons and gallons of fire hundreds of yards, but that's just me.

Yeah, but only if they're allowed to play Beavis screaming "Fire! Fire!" over a bullhorn while doing so.

That would be bitchin'!

Re:Pepper Spray

[SerpentMage]

[sarcasm]That is why you have water spray down trucks used throughout the rest of world whenever there are riots[/sarcasm]

I mean if there is one thing that Europe excels at it is riots and how to control them. Not to say that it is a good thing though!

Re:Pepper Spray

[geekoid]

Military grade pepper spray is a lot different then what you get from the store.

Re:Pepper Spray

[Kintanon]

I've never understood the faith people have in pepper spray. At least, not since I was working security for a widespread Panic concert and a biker did a cool trick with one of the security guards pepper spray... He grabbed the pepper spray and sprayed it into his mouth, then chased it with a beer and belched.... You shoulda seen the security guards eyes...

Kintanon

Re:Pepper Spray

[Tassach]

A country's armed forces have ALWAYS been a tool of foreign policy, all the way back to the dawn of recorded history. The legions of Rome in both the Empire and the Republic spent *far* more time building roads, policing the populace of client states, and so forth then they ever spend fighting.

Re:Pepper Spray

[Tassach]

Not all pepper sprays are created equal. The active ingredient in Pepper spray is capsaicin, which occurs naturally in peppers. The cheap-ass crap normally peddled to civilians has a fairly low concentration of capsaicin (often 1%) and is typically delivered in a water or mineral oil base -- both of which are natural antidotes to the effects of capsaicin. The good stuff that the military gets is mixed with CS or CN tear gas and has very high concentrations (10% - 25%) of capsaicin. This combination of agents is highly effective - each agent enhances the effect of the other.

Wow!

[GMontag]

This is deceptively like taking a standard flatbed truck, with no fancy cab interior, providing an easy way to link the cab to the bed (oh, like say a data and power cable or 2), then tossing on/in any old modular box for the mission...

Humm, didn't we do this with the HEMTT series? The MTV series, hell even the old 2.5 ton series (complete with "modular" 5 ton wrecker for mobility to/from the motorpool), the list goes on.

Oh, just noticed from the article, they cost more. Wow, some innovation.

$400 Toilet Seat

[core plexus]

I'd love to see a list of the components they used for this thing. I'm guessing, having been in the Army, that it's way overbuilt, and when it gets to the field, the troops will hate it. And, it won't be long before someone figures out a low-tch way to defeat the "gee-whiz" factor, just as happened in Bosnia. (See Fooling High-Tech with kerosene lanters, aluminum foil, and other household items).

Over-exposed schoolgirl victim of high-tech bullying

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[Skyshadow]

And, it won't be long before someone figures out a low-tch way to defeat the "gee-whiz" factor, just as happened in Bosnia.

Looking at the thing and seeing no apparent armor added, I would venture a guess that the "low tech" method of defeating this thing would be to pump a couple of rounds into it with an AK-47.

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[SerpentMage]

What I am wondering about is why they did not even use a Hummer as a basis. A chevy? Come on people who was designing this thing?

I seriously think somebody had too much time and money and watched too much Discovery Channel...

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[geekoid]

the hummer has a diferent mission, and is disgned for such. I would wager the hummer would have to be changed to much.

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

IIRC, there is a variant of the hummer set up for ambulance duty, whether it was produced or not I don't know. However, it had a flat bed that would be capable of handling the nodules and would certainly be a better chassis than a *snicker* quad-cab chevy...

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[miltimj]

There's at least a dozen variations of the HMMWV, and the ambulance is definitely one of them. Heck, I've been in one.

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[Chanc_Gorkon]

GM OWNS AM General. The new H2 from Hummer is based on a combo of the Suburban and Tahoe Chassis. Much more behaved on the road, but not much. The specs on the H2 for ground clearance are also not exactly correct. Most of them are underrated and it can do more then advertised. It also starts out at around 49,000 versus 100,000 for the H1 which is still being made. I may be able to attain a H2 some point in my life. The H1 costs more then my house!

Re:$400 Toilet Seat

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

Technically, a Jeep is a Chrysler too. Jeep still has their own cadre of crack smoking engineers, however. Likewise, Hummer is pretty distinct from GM in the engineering dept, except for that aberration known as the H2. That thing is the placenta of Hummers, since it only popped out because of the H1 Hummer.

Hmmm

[Anixamander]

Apparently the real world version needed interchangable nodules, and the absolute must-have for every Slashdotter's vehicle - a 'hacker in a box'."

I suppose this gives new meaning to the term "wardriving."

Re:Hmmm

[Anixamander]

Upon further review, and not to be overly pedantic here, but I think the proper term should be "Cracker in a Box."

I'm guessing the Army thought that term sounded too Ritzy.

Re:Hmmm

[Angry White Guy]

Naw, this is the new, ethnically friendly military. Cracker is a banned word.

Maybe It's Just That I'm A Canadian. . .

[Farley Mullet]

. . .but a news conference featuring a marching color guard and a military band playing patriotic songs such as "God Bless America" to introduce a truck seems straight outta the Simpsons. Like an inanimate carbon rod getting a medal from the president or something.

Re:Maybe It's Just That I'm A Canadian. . .

[los furtive]

Careful, the truck might hear you!

Re:Maybe It's Just That I'm A Canadian. . .

[binner1]

All I could think was: "Hey, G.I. Joe had vehicles like this in the 80's!!"

-Ben

Re:Maybe It's Just That I'm A Canadian. . .

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

Have you ever seen the episode with the Canyonero SUV? It's pretty much like that.

Re:Maybe It's Just That I'm A Canadian. . .

[IHateEverybody]

Does it has a red ball on top of its antenna so you can find it quicker in the parking lot?

Not mention where's the fuzzy dice? The dice! The dice!

Hmm.

[cascino]

From the article:
The military said it has no plans to produce the truck any time soon
It's a publicity stunt, nothing more.
Is anyone else a little skeptical of the "read all e-mails sent near the truck" capability? Have they not heard of encryption?

Re:Hmm.

[Kymermosst]

Is anyone else a little skeptical of the "read all e-mails sent near the truck" capability? Have they not heard of encryption?

Maybe they are using van Eck (Tempest) phreaking. (Google it if you don't know what it is.)

If one could capture what was on someone else's monitor, a computer could OCR it easy enough. A computer could probably locate the signal, as well. This would provide for the possibility of an automatic capture system.

Also, since you generally don't type e-mail in encrypted form, it's irrelevent.

This is just speculation, mind you.

Re:Hmm.

[SerpentMage]

A publicity stunt? Ok, But to prove what? How to beat the Discovery channel Monster garage crew?

Lets put it this way. If my army had to rely on this thing, I would be thinking of moving.

Oh wait I already did from Canada to Switzerland. ;)

some of this sounds like fantasy.

[joshsisk]

It includes a computer program linked with surveillance equipment to monitor what people in the area around the vehicle are saying in e-mail

Excuse me? Why do you need a truck to monitor email? Wouldn't it be safer to monitor email from afar?

Re:some of this sounds like fantasy.

[_ph1ux_]

ah... but it can also send email. didnt you read the article?

Re:some of this sounds like fantasy.

[_ph1ux_]

sarcasm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
The use of sarcasm.

Re:some of this sounds like fantasy.

[addaon]

I wonder if this refers to tempest, which requires physical proximity... any thoughts?

Have to Pay for CNN Video

[notestein]

The most stunning thing I learned reading this article is that you now have to pay to watch CNN video clips.

What are they thinking?

Smartruck Site

[bkruiser]

http://www.smartruck2.com/

Does anyone else feel a bit worried?

[Valar]

I mean, it is obvious this thing wasn't really intended for a desert. I mean, the hacker in a box thing, and all the modifications to fight off crowds. We already had one story recently about drones being used over US air, and we all know about Tempest and Carnivore. I think it is clear that this thing is designed to either operate in America or other countries similarly structured, not against any target the administration is likely to publicly attack (i.e. 'heathen desert living primitive terrorist types').

Re:Does anyone else feel a bit worried?

[YrWrstNtmr]

I mean, it is obvious this thing wasn't really intended for a desert.

And not every military mission is in a desert. Just about every country on the planet have some land that is not desert.

And I think it is clear that this thing is designed to either operate in America or other countries similarly structured, not against any target the administration is likely to publicly attack (i.e. 'heathen desert living primitive terrorist types').

I think it is clear you have no clue as to the many, many types of missions that are carried out by the military (US and otherwise).

What's the point?

[mike_mgo]

To me this just seems up there with the color coding terror warning system; something to make it look like the people in charge are making us safer but without any real effect.

What role would this truck ever really play in the army? It seems to me that the curent Humvee is probably modular enough to perform any of the tasks that the SmarTruck is designed for.

Oh well, who really expects common sense from the government, if it's for the army of course its a good idea.

Re:What's the point?

[glesga_kiss]

The point is simple. Building it made lots of money for a few companies that have "links" with people in the military who make decissions on these things...

Re:What's the point?

[nucal]

Cab houses 3-D mapping system and communication system dubbed 'hacker in a box' that could monitor e-mail in area, send e-mail or destroy enemy communication system.

Come on - with this kind of power, the US Army can SPAM Iraq into submission ...

Re:What's the point?

[sweetooth]

How? It's not like Saddam is reading his email to begin with.

Re:What's the point?

[YrWrstNtmr]

What role would this truck ever really play in the army?

Who knows? Has the senior Army leadership clued you into the plans they have for this? Light pickups and Blazers are very common in the military. Why not outfit them for tasks where they can be useful?

It seems to me that the curent Humvee is probably modular enough to perform any of the tasks that the SmarTruck is designed for.

Starting with a reliable platform (current pickup/SUV) brings a lot to the table. Parts availability, repairs, fix it anywhere.
The HUMVEE is a 30 year old design. Not perfect for many missions. Maybe, just maybe, a new (or additional) platform should be looked at. The only way to stay ahead is to keep trying new things.

Re:What's the point?

[JonWan]

How about we just /. their server ?

Re:What's the point?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Yes it is. But a design based on a current SUV/pickup might be easier to get parts/repairs for out in the boonies.
Oops...its only about 20 years old. Went into design in 1983.

Re:What's the point?

[_ph1ux_]

"To me this just seems up there with the color coding terror warning system; something to make it look like the people in charge are making us safer but without any real effect"

This is something I have thought a lot about and discussed at length.

It's a theory I call Bureaucracy of Mediocrity. It goes something like this - feel free to add or debunk, as you like

Short Version:

The government is full of useless mediocre people who continually pass laws and do activities that serve no real purpose other than to make themselves appear to be accomplishing something.

Long Version:

Basically there has been a very large influx of mediocre people who have been given, and sought out, jobs within the government system.

There are several reasons for this. First it started as a "sensitive exercise" in which the government was required to consider all sorts of people for the positions they offered. This means that the government needed to hire in people who were not necessarily the best qualified for the positions. I am not going to go into affirmative action or anything like that right now - but it's pretty evident that there are many government workers that are driftwood. People who work there - but don't actually work.

Anyway, the point is that now we have a large bureaucratic system filled with people of mediocre quality who are just trying to look like they are doing something, trying to make themselves feel like they are important.

A perfect example of this is the back patting "atta-boy" behavior of senators and other congress critters after the September 11 terrorist attacks. They held a ceremony and talked about the heroics of each other and the mayor of New York. The mayor of New York - rudy guilliani - was in now way a "hero"... he was just doing his job. He didn't do any extraordinary thing. He didn't personally rescue someone from crisis while at personal risk.

These people just want it to look as though they are doing something important and accomplishing something in their work.

The other major behavior of people in government positions is to hide behind bureaucracy. The more difficult and convoluted they make any process - the less likely they would actually have to do any work. It really is this simple - people are lazy, and many government workers are just milking the system and doing "gestures of accomplishment" where they do something which is utterly meaningless so as to look as though they are actually doing something.

Anyway - you get the point. But its this mentality and lack of any true thoughtful work that gives us such lame things like the color coded terror warning.

What the fuck is a high state of alert anyway. There is no such thing. If you are alert - you are alert. If you're missing things, then you obviously are not alert. There are not different stages of alert. (And I am not referring to the alertness of a personal individual - I am talking about the alertness of a systems, group or body - such as a nation)

Re:What's the point?

[vrt3]

Actually it kinda reminds me of the way the A-Team used to rebuild their van in every episode.

Re:What's the point?

[psych031337]

Humvee a 30yo design? Do you have any references for that? I think the first Humvees were built around 1982 or 1981. So took them another 10 years to get from blueprint to prototype? And I thought the german army was a bunch of lazy bastards...

mental masturbation?

[ldspartan]

Sounds and looks like designers having fun with themselves. Lines like 'we wanted to make something which would make people know that we mean business' lead me to believe that this is not a deployable vehicle. Even if it was, why use a commercial pick-up platform? The military has several wheeled, all-terrain platforms that are suitable to this job (armored personel carriers spring to mind).

So, I at least think that its just more standard auto-show fluff.

--
Phil

Useful?

[Skyshadow]

Okay, who else wouldn't want to drive one of these things into a combat zone?

Look, it's got some nice bells and whistles, but hand me an RPG or drive this over a mine and all it'll be good for in the future is roasting marshmallows. Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to mount this sort of electronic warfare gear onto Humvees or (better yet) APCs? Which vehicle would you rather have when even the Somali militia opens up on you, much less anyone with training?

The general quoted in the interview acknowledged that there was no mission in mind for the first generation SmarTruck. Well, that's the mission for this thing? A next-gen friendly casualty generator?

Re:Useful?

[Surak]

Look, it's got some nice bells and whistles, but hand me an RPG or drive this over a mine and all it'll be good for in the future is roasting marshmallows.

It's an anti-terrorism device. It isn't INTENDED to be used in areas where your enemy has an RPG or has planted mines. It's intended use is places like New York City or Detroit or Los Angeles -- against ordinary citizens.

If that doesn't frighten you, I don't know what will.

Re:Useful?

[SerpentMage]

Ok, fine, but I think somebody has been watching too much RoboCop!

Terrorists usually attack by:
1) Blowing themselves up
2) Blowing a truck up
3) Blowing a building up

Now as sad as these terrorists are, how exactly is this supposed to stop terrorists blowing things up?

Outside of that people have not been reduced to chaotic factors shown so often in movies.

Re:Useful?

[geekoid]

all ground vehicals, including tanks, are just targets. Tanks look great moving across a flat desert, towards an ill-equipt foe, but that same senerio with any country near are technology level of the US would end very badly for the tanks.

Re:Useful?

[Zemran]

I would rather convert one into a camper van and go touring :) I think it would turn some heads :)

Re:Useful?

[BurntHombre]

Ah, Slashdot...where every poster is an expert on military, politics, law, religion, science and legos.

Do you think it's possible that there may be some people involved in this project, perhaps even a majority, who know a helluva lot more about the military equipment than you? Or that they have in fact considered that this vehicle is not ideal for a RPG- or mine-laden environments?

Re:Useful?

[torpor]

You idiot.

A terrorist is someone who kills by doing something that is *not* usual.

Saying a terrorist is 'usually' something is completely misunderstanding the nature of the problem.

This truck is scarey. It's an urban-assault vehicle intended for use in Western Democracies.

There is no other battlefield for it.

Re:Useful?

[SerpentMage]

Me idiot??? Na ja...

Sept 11 was an exception to the rule of terrorists. If you look at Eta, IRA, Isalamic Radicals, and other groups they either resort to kidnappings, isolated murders or bombs. Why bombs? Because bombs are effective, simple to implement and can be done in a split second without damage control. A bomb has a huge element of surprise, without requiring much external intervention.

So please next time take a look at what terrorists have done!

Re:Useful?

[Minna Kirai]

Probably just an Anti-Personell mine. AP mines have a pale fraction of the power in an anti-tank mine (which are too large for most humans to carry).
Pieces of HMMVW would rain a kilometer away if it parked on an AT.

(Still, it is important for light, infantry-mobility vehicles to have some survivablity too)

Re:Useful?

[Minna Kirai]

Yes, but a vehicle with high mobility and lots of supressive firepower (an M60 on the back) will be less likely to find an RPG targeting it at all.

The new truck looks like strictly behind-the-lines support (either C&C, ELINT/COMINT, or launching a handful of smart missiles at BVR targets).

You must have really clever soldiers...

[fantomas]

Hmm, reminds me of a story I heard regarding the much-maligned SA80 rifle over here in the UK.. apparently top brass invited over Mr Kalashnikov one day (designer of AK47 fame). Mr K. had a good look at the SA80 and turned to the generals and said "You must have really clever soldiers".

Ultimate show of military might

[dr_dank]

SmarTruckII could just sit and listen, send bogus e-mails to confuse an enemy, or, if it is not amused, kill the enemy communications system altogether.

The US military has discovered the destructive power of Slashdotting. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Only the Government.....

[MadBurner]

Only our goverment would be willing to drive into battle in a Chevy.

Re:Only the Government.....

[los furtive]

The old Canadian Forces 5/4 ton was a Chevy.

Whatever

[kruczkowski]

Remeber when the HUMVE came out? everyone thought it was the best thing in the world.

I worked with the Army. I went to an exercize for a month, and I can tell you that they are the bigist peace of shit on wheels. Everywere the Army goes they break down. Insted of driving them in a convoy, they had to put them on a train, why? Becouse the commanders said they won't last the 12 hour drive. Everyone I talked to said they were shit.

Why? becouse the Army buys the cheapest part to run them, and the solderiers don't care about them. Like my father said, back in the day when the jeep was your life, you took are of it. Now when it breaks down, they get a replacement. Thats nice until you notice your motorpool is many miles away.

Besides the cool versions like this one, only the commanders get. Who don't drive them becouse they perfer ther nice Audi and Volvo rentacars. (Yes the commanders did ditch there tactical vechicals to drive around in new A8's)

It scares me a little about this Iraq situation. The Army people now days don't know anything. It's sad I think, and I hope they don't go into war, becouse there heads are so stuck up (we *did* kick ass in afganistan, _but_ with the help of the Birts and Canadians) I could go on more about why I feel this way. But I'll save my breath.

Remeber, Sadam is no dumb ass. The read dumbasses are the young officers who think they can kick anyones ass.

Needless to say I don't work for the Army anymoe for this reason.

Re:Whatever

[LordYUK]

"Remeber, Sadam is no dumb ass. The read dumbasses are the young officers who think they can kick anyones ass.

Needless to say I don't work for the Army anymoe for this reason."

This guy is obviously an expert on "dumb" and "ass" having been one most of his life.

Re:Whatever

[ksw2]

It scares me a little about this Iraq situation. The Army people now days don't know anything. It's sad I think, and I hope they don't go into war, becouse there heads are so stuck up (we *did* kick ass in afganistan, _but_ with the help of the Birts and Canadians) I could go on more about why I feel this way. But I'll save my breath.

This is quite possibly the most uninformed statement I've ever read on Slashdot. And... surprise! It's got a score of 5.

If you honestly think we're relying on the likes of Canada to protect our nation, you are absolutely insane.

Re:Whatever

[Dr Caleb]

And your response was quite uninformed as well. ..with the help of the Brits and Canadians.. was the key there.

PPCLI (Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry) was to be awarded a US Congressional Medal for its work in Afganistan, the first such honour since the PPCLI served in Korea. The JTF2 (Joint Task Force 2 - Canadian Commandos, comparing them to Navy Seals is comparing a Pit Bull to a German Shepard) were also given citations to their sniper squad for work done in southern Afganistan.

The US did not rely on it's friends, but it did get help. If you think you can go it alone, then you're absolutely insane.

Re:Whatever

[Fapestniegd]

I was *in* the Army and for the most part, I agree with everything above. However If you have a crafty supply seargent running the parts section of the motor pool this can be circumvented. We had awesome parts from high performance glow-plugs to tires. Our HMMWVs could bark the tires (Not easily done in a full time 4W drive vehicle) And they almost never broke down. So if you had the right man for the job (someone willing to put in the extra hours to find the right part numbers and requisition them) HMMWVs rock! Like everything else in the Army, It's all about the people.

Re:Whatever

[gol64738]

are you kidding? i've found the HUMVEE to be an extremely reliable vehicle!
while stationed in northern Saudi Arabia during the whole Desert Shield/Storm thing, we would take these things out into the desert and make jumps.

wow, we could hit a jump doing about 80 and be airborne for 3-4 seconds!

be careful when jumping these things though, it's real easy to hit your head on the inside middle turret handle when coming down for landing.

we basically tried to drive these things into the ground, but the worst case scenario was a broken axle on a single HUMVEE.

Re:Whatever

[miltimj]

From my experience, HMMWVs rock. I've driven over everything with them, including small trees and boulders. Four-wheel independent suspension and eight-feet wide, baby.

They take a licking and keep on ticking. I've never had a problem with them -- oh yeah, but that's also because we take care of them.

It's honestly really too bad that the people you were around weren't doing their jobs. Don't fault the vehicle for the operator's negligence. The HMMWV is an amazing and versatile vehicle.

The Army people now days don't know anything.

I gotta believe this is nothing more than a troll... you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

But I'll save my breath.

Please, do.

Re:Whatever

[infolib]

(we *did* kick ass in afganistan, _but_ with the help of the Birts and Canadians)

I don't know much about the Afghani war, but I think you forget to mention the Northern Alliance. After all they had been fighting the Taleban for years and were the ones who did most of the (dangerous) groundwork. The Taleban would have lasted a lot longer without an experienced up-and-running enemy ready to channel US support.

You should also mention how many Taleban supporting warlords were probably pretty easily bought off during the conflict. After all, their odds got a lot worse when the US joined the conflict.

Re:Whatever

[ksw2]

The US did not rely on it's friends, but it did get help. If you think you can go it alone, then you're absolutely insane.

As a former member of special operations (in the US), this point is not lost on me. To the contrary, I thought it was rather obvious. However, the orignal poster was attempting to make the case that the United States Army is in shambles, and wouldn't be anything without relying on "foreign aid". This, as you now, is bullshit... (and probably reflects the views of someone who was !honorably discharged.)

Re:Whatever

[Minna Kirai]

(we *did* kick ass in afganistan, _but_ with the help of the Birts and Canadians)

With the help of the Afghans, really ("Northern Alliance" they called them). They supplied the men on the ground, 99.99% of the force, and 100% of the people who got shot (until 2 months had gone by, and anything resembling a "war" was already done)

The US put up some bomber pilots, and occasional SOF spotters.

We only viewed the war as easy because it wasn't our guys charging on horseback to get chewed up by AA fire.

Important questions unanswered:

[Hayzeus]

Like how much for leather? Is there a towing option? You'd think CNN might dig a little deeper...

No

[Synn]

I'm an American and it's tacky as hell.

damn slow connection...

[muyuubyou]

1977 Honda Accord

This was supposed to be in parent... but I clicked by accident

Prior Art

[RDW]

Of course, a superior Top Secret heavy-duty vehicle with interchangeable mission 'nodules' has already been developed.

Civilians can buy something like this already

[bubblegoose]

There's a company in PA called IBIS TEK that modifies a GM SUV and it is legal to buy in the U.S.

You can buy a sensor package and NBC protection. It becomes a problem when you mount the .50-caliber M2 machine gun or a MK-19, 40-mm grenade launcher, which hides inside the cargo area.

It will set you back $500,000, but the cool thing is the quote from IBIS TEK "the average deer hunter in Pennsylvania could operate the system if he or she had a minimal amount of computer experience."
I guess that includes me :-)

No no, not TNG

[schon]

This is obviously a movie parody (note the roman numerals in the title..)

"SmarTruck II - The Wrath of Saddam"

Hmm, doesn't quite have the same ring as "Wrath of Khan"..

I wouldn't watch it anyway.. William Shatner parodying Bush might make my head explode.

Re:Hmmm...

[rhost89]

Acctually, someones pockets were lined with this project. More fleecing of Americans hard earned tax dollars.

"The prototype vehicle cost between $500,000 and $1 million"

For a chevy silvarado and some PC's and other equipment they probably could have stripped from a mothballed apache helicopter, and a estimated price gap of a half a million for its budget, yes its most definitly vapor.

Damnit... now I want back in!

[Kymermosst]

I just got my Honorable discharge a month ago.

This would have been a fun project to work on, even if it is just someone's research idea that will never come to pass. It would have been damn fun to be the test driver or T.C. for this thing.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:What about troops and other costs?

[Tassach]

You are assuming that they will have one chassis and multiple payload modules. This is the wrong idea. They will probably have more chassis units than payload modules; that way, if the truck goes tango-uniform, you rip off the payload module and stick it on a replacement chassis and send the broken chassis back to the depot for servicing. This also means you only have to keep one set of spare parts, tools, service manuals, etc on hand to repair the damn things, instead of having to duplicate everything 8 times over.

Gah!

[TerryAtWork]

More US technomilitary fetish.

This isn't going to stop them from wrapping it up in Iraq in 3 days, though.

Interior Features

[bmcphall]

According to the Smart Truck IIhomepage:

The center console of the vehicle houses the rear view video display, joystick controls, driver GPS Display, mobile satellite phone, AM/FM/CD stereo system, and cellular phone mount.

What!?! No cupholder?

Coyote is Much Better

[Lev13than]

The SmartTruck looks like something Mattel invented... Why they decided to put it on a truck cab instead of a modified Hummer is beyond me.

In any event, there is already a great vehicle system on the market: the Canadian Forces' Coyote, part of their LAV platform of vehicles (insert gratuitious Canadian army jokes here). This system is so successful that it has been picked up the US Army under the Stryker name. Plus, it has the advantage of looking like it belongs on a battlefield and not some kid's sandbox.

Some specs for the Coyote:
Length: 6.39 m
Width: 2.50 m
Height: 2.69 m
Maximum speed: 100 km/hr
Range: 660 km
Weight: 14.4 t
Gradient: maximum 60%
Side slope: maximum 30%
Minimum turn diameter: 15.6 m
Trench crossing: 2.06 m
Fording
shallow: 1.3m
deep: 1.0m
3 configurations:
Command (51 vehicles)
Battlegroup (120 vehicles)
Brigade (32 vehicles)
Armament:
25-mm stabilized M242 chain gun
7.62-mm stabilized coaxial machine-gun
7.62-mm top-turret mounted machine- gun
76-mm smoke/fragmentation grenade launcher
Sights:
Daytime optical
Thermal Imagery (TI)
Generation III Image Intensification (II)
Surveillance System:
Battlefield
Surveillance Radar
Thermal Imager
Daylight camera
Laser Rangefinder

Winch: Front-mounted 6,800 kg dynamic pull
self-recovery winch
Engine: 275 hp Detroit Diesel 6V53T
Transmission: 5 forward gears, 1 reverse
Transfer case: 2 speed
Suspension: Independent Rear 4 wheels
torsion bar
Front 4 wheels strut
Wheels: 8 wheels (4 or 8 wheel drive)
Tires: Michelin XML
Brakes: Power (air)
Electrical system: 28 V
Batteries: 2 x 12 V automotive, 6 x 12V
auxiliary
Alternator: 300 A

Not every weapon is designed to fight Iraq.

[MyNameIsFred]

One of the big issues facing the U.S. military is it doesn't have a clue where the next battle will be. Three years ago would anybody have predicted that we would go to war in Afghanistan? Consequently, the military has to have a capability to fight anywhere, and certainly having a capability to fight in an urban environment makes sense. And for those following the news, the military's big concern in Iraq is not desert fighting, but urban warfare. Why do you think the Marines and the Army have been training heavily in their urban warfare training centers. I'm not saying the military should buy this thing, but I am glad that they're thinking about what to do and how to do it. The alternative being, "if something happens, I sure hope we have the right weapons..."

Re:Not every weapon is designed to fight Iraq.

[miltimj]

Three years ago would anybody have predicted that we would go to war in Afghanistan?

Three years ago, I was sitting in a military science class where my professor (Lieutenant Colonel and Green Beret/Special Forces) said, "you're going to go to training for regular land warfare, but remember this... this guy is the one we'll really be fighting". He put up a couple of quotes of Osama Bin Laden (who I had never heard of at the time). I couldn't believe that someone believed what he did and what he said, and figured that maybe my prof was overreacting. ...until later that year.

I want to be a marketing consultant for the Army

[Sebbo]

Hey, that's a really smar idea!

Not yet. the future of military automotive

[Animats]

The Army has been looking for commercial alternatives to the HUMMV. There are prototypes, but nothing that's gone into volume production.

There's the COMBATT truck (a GMC pickup with a lift job and some armor). Rod Millen Racing has built dune-buggy type vehicles for the military (they look like Somali technicals, but perform like Baja trucks.) There are other prototypes around.

GM has a military product line, based on pickup or Suburban platforms. Except for the Rod Millen vehicles, all this stuff is for rear areas; if you have to follow tanks around, you need a HUMMV.

More news photos...

[TheSHAD0W]

http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=smartru ck&c=news_photos

(working link to Smartruck II page) http://www.smartruck2.com

UAV

[quitcherbitchen]

In another twist, the vehicle can house an unmanned dronelike small aircraft that can hover over a nearby area and send live video back to the vehicle.

I wonder if they are referring to this thing which was supposedly licensed by the military. Slashdot covered it a while back.

jesus christ... cost?

[Hadlock]

i'll try not to be a troll here, i'm really trying.

umm what the fuck? we went from a $500 40 hp, 4wd jeep that seemed to do a pretty damn good job of transporting 4 humans up a 40 degree incline with no problem. they are inherently simple, and weigh nothing. with today's design/production technology, they'd weigh less and cary more, and probably be stackable.

enter the 1980's. we get $100,000 hummers. they hold exactly the same number of people, don't accelerate any faster, and aren't any better at navigating the offroad. they also weigh two tons.

i like the idea of mass producing an F-250/350 for certian needs, like a portable rocket launcher, but you do not need 6-10 wheeled F-550's that cost 100,000 a piece. there's no reason the truck needs more than 200 hp, and there's no reason why you can't use slightly beefed up suspension parts for this sort of job out of the ford/chevy/dodge parts box to cut prices down to the 12,000-20,000 price range. i can understand the price inflating with a bed-mounted rocket launcher, but the initial cost of the chassis is unbelivably absurd. what ever happened tt back to basics?

Re:jesus christ... cost?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Transporting 4 humans is no longer the mission. Drone launch, intel, crowd control, riot supression...all this takes equipment. Equipment is heavy. More horsepower needed to haul it.
If you've ever seen a HUMVEE haul a duece and a half out of frame deep mud, you'd understand the difference.

Modularity. Designing in the ability to swap boxes for different missions adds cost and weight.

Finally...from the article:
The military said it has no plans to produce the truck any time soon, although Bran Ferren, a designer of SmarTruck II, said that if an order came through it could be put in production in a year.

Re:jesus christ... cost?

[GooberToo]

there's no reason the truck needs more than 200 hp

Bzzz. That's just plain wrong.

They need 300+ hp for good reason. First, they carry heavy equipment and people. Secondly, some of the terrain these things may need to run in may be at high elevation. If they need to run at 10,000-15,000+ feet, that alone will considerably effect available hp. Then, plan on some wear and tear. Add an the scotching heat or other such horrible environments where the airfilter is resticting air flow. Now, allow for minor par failure (stuck lifter or valve, etc), you're no where near 300hp.

After it's all said and done, if you allow for realistic use, wear/tear and operating conditions, the surplus hp is needed. ZERO question about it. Period.

I'd sure hate to be a soldier stuck in a crappy vehicle that you under-designed. Doomed from the start to say the least.

Re:jesus christ... cost?

[demo9orgon]

Hey, you noticed all the GoldBricking and showmanship. That's what this is really about. It might also go that extra-mile when high-school kids are herded into an auditorium to watch recruitment videos made using it. All the shop-doodz might get wood and talk about making their own war-buggy, and the chess-headz would probably cookup stats for it so they could play with one in an RPG game or try to draw one for a extra-credit in their cad class, and all the welfare kids would probably be hoping for a scholarship so they wouldn't have to join up to get into college and eat.

Of those that enlist with this kind of thing in mind, 99.9% of them won't realize that they'll probably never see one in actual use; maybe in a motorpool, or maybe if they're not passing out in formation at a parade as a general drives past them in one, but that's about it.

If any intelligence gathering unit showed up with something like this, it would be RPG bait. Little kids would be told to roll grenades under it, and could you imagine getting it ready for inspection?! There would be a pissed off captain somewhere yelling,
"Sick Call!! The whole damn platoon!?!"

Field work is much more successful when they just (skunkworks local 151) rework several large delivery trucks, paint them up with the words, "Delivery" or "Plumbing" in the native language of the area, hire the local piraiah who can't get laid and doesn't have any friends and still lives at home playing video games or programming(holy shit, I just described 90% of slashdot!) to drive the damn thing, and spend the day driving around with electronic vacuum cleaners feeding hard-drives and tape recorders. Nobody would say a word, and the job would get done. The biggest retrofit would be to tear off the metallic top over the cargo area and setup an RF neutral one using fiberglass...no biggie, what, all of $2500 to $5000 per vehicle, and maybe all of $200 to the driver for as long as you need them, when you need them.

Crap...I'm probably screwing up posting this, I certainly hope nobody in the "Axis of Evil" is reading slashdot right now...

Cheers

Re:I saw this one

[rherbert]

I doubt you would laugh if you thought of the US military as your enemy, because you'd likely be dead or captive soon.

And why wouldn't it be cost effective? It's considerably cheaper than the $4.3 million for an M1A1 Abrams Battle Tank.

Who else thinks that the bumpers looks cool ?

[forged]

Now if only the army would release these as spares, I'd be on the list to get them with the floodlights ;)

It Blends Right In!

[1stflight]

Oh no that thing doesn't stand out in the slightest! I'm sure it's camoflauge works great... in a Mad Max world.

Re:What? There's no other urban areas in world?

[Mr.Phil]

What if we fight France of somebody next time? Think that M1 Abrams is going to fit through all those streets in Nice?

I'm sure they could make it fit, those things can push through and over pretty much anything. And anyway, France still has alot of little white flags, used once, left over from WW2. (just kidding)

Cool toy to waste taxmoney, but...

[intnsred]

I thought the U.S. Army was part of the Department of "Defense"[sic]. As such shouldn't the Army's goal be to defend the US from foreign enemies?

With the Posse Comitatus Act still supposedly intact, why does the Army need a vehicle that is obviously aimed at use against a civilian populace?

Or is the Posse Comitatus Act, like our Bill of Rights and getting honest answers from administration officials, yet another casualty of the War on Terror?

Big Brother's Jeep

[ChaosMt]

Did anyone actually *read* this article?!?!!! It's supposedly designed to intercept (spy) on local email, spoof email (propaganda) and last destroy communications.

"In the cab of the truck are housed a 3-D mapping system and a communications system that Fuller described as "hacker in a box." It includes a computer program linked with surveillance equipment to monitor what people in the area around the vehicle are saying in e-mail. SmarTruckII could just sit and listen, send bogus e-mails to confuse an enemy, or, if it is not amused, kill the enemy communications system altogether."

I'm surprised not to see the typicial out-of-control, knee-jerk reaction from the slashdot crowd to this.

Re:Big Brother's Jeep

[Gothmolly]

Because you CAN'T just wirelessly "snoop" on emails. This is a press release, written for technical PHBs, and apparently, Slashdotters named ChaosMt. For Chrissake, the guy used the words "if it is not amused". Its obviously just marketing spin.

Don't get all excited! Sheesh!

[aengblom]

The prototype vehicle cost between $500,000 and $1 million, Fuller said, although she said it is tough to estimate precisely because it involved partnerships with several firms.

The military said it has no plans to produce the truck any time soon, although Bran Ferren, a designer of SmarTruck II, said that if an order came through it could be put in production in a year.

As I read it, after Sept. 11 some military command folks said--wow, that changes a lot.

They concluded the military might need some new ideas for lightweight vehicles and told some researches to play around with what they could come up with.

This isn't going to the battlefield--it's a prototype of a number of new ideas. And if one of those ideas can save an American soldiers life it's well worth it in U.S. Military (as well as Political) economics.

Soldiers are expensive to train (and thus lose) and its even more expensive to explain their death to the public.

hate to be a spoilsport...

[zogger]

..hate to be a spoilsport but a huge amount of the latest military training and equipment developed and deployed is intended for domestic use. This is an involved topic not readily addressed in a few posts, but doing some research it becomes *fairly* apparent.

Part of my own personal research is talking to active or retired or semi recently quit members of various US "forces". I have heard some rather disturbing *things* along these lines. Very disturbing. Here's one just at random, a lot of training now revolves around indoctrination that US civilians have no constitutional "right" to bear arms. Another is training for manning roadblocks and for doing house to house searches in regards firearms confiscation.

The model states health emergency act is an eye opener as well. You can see/guess what's coming and it ain't nice. Forced... everything. Reading on "less than lethal" weaponry you can find out more, microwave beam weapons, sonic weapons, various gasses, etc, all designed for mass riot control, and to deflect any immediate criticism that it's only for "foreigners" overseas someplace in some war, these weapons are being provided to US police forces as well. Another clue is the intense militarization of US police forces, emphasizing military styled training and hiring ex military personnel over traditional policing and maintaining that police are civilians. Nowadays police refer to non police as "civilians", noting therefore they are "not". It's a mindset and series of occurrences that should be setting off a lot of alarm bells in people's minds now.

It's also a big clue why the army has started on adopting a lot more wheeled armor over tracked, much easier to use in cities and on roads. Yes, easier to transport as well, but still...

Re:hate to be a spoilsport...

[zazas_mmmm]

It's also a big clue why the army has started on adopting a lot more wheeled armor over tracked, much easier to use in cities and on roads. Yes, easier to transport as well, but still...

Not to insinuate that you're paranoid, but shouldn't our military's weapons fit the terrain that most wars are being fought these days? Urban terror/guerilla warfare is very common these days (see Chechnya, Israel, etc.). I would be more inclined to believe that this is the motivating factor for the military developing more wheeled armor vehicles.

You can keep waiting for the military to take over American cities, but my suspicion is that martial law is still a ways off.

Urban assult vehicle - this included Bagdad

[wowbagger]

This is an Urban Assult Vehicle, but that does not necessarily mean they are planning a raid on New York.

Remember, if we HAVE to go into Iraq|Afganistan|Bosnia|... we will be fighting in the cities. The last Gulf War was an anomaly - this time, Saddam will allow us to take all the sand we want. However, if we want to move into the cities, then we will pay dearly.

So, you want a vehicle designed to fight in a city. Any city - Bagdad, Prague, Paris, Wichita, it doesn't matter.

That said - some of the moves being made to prepare for citizen suppression scare the crap out of me. I expect that by the time I am ready to retire, we will be living in what Civilization calls a "Corporate Republic".

Re:Urban assult vehicle - this included Bagdad

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

This thing would be worse than useless in a city war. If you think that it could navigate rubble strewn streets, collapsed building debris, and intentional barricades then you are sorely wrong. This thing will suck in the open, but it will be a deathtrap in town.

Full Metal Challenge?

[docbrown42]

Damn, that truck looks like one of the entries on FMC.

Re:Hmmm...

[geekoid]

please take some business economic classes before spouting off like that. if you have 4 people, each maing 50,000 a year involved in this project, that would be 400,000* dollars right there.

*it cost more a company more for there workers then there "base pay".

Crusader?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you know nothing about military equipment, especialy field artillery.

1.) The Crusader is a smaller system then the current Paladin system that has been in use since around the 1950's. Yes we are talking the 1950's

2.) 1 Crusader can send out more rounds in one minute then a entire battery of Paladins. A battery usualy consists of 6 to 9 Paladins.

3.) The crew of a Crusader is 1/2 the size of the Paladin crew. Most of the system is using computers compared to Paladin which has 100% no computers. (this does not count fire direction control) The Crusader has proven to also be more accurate in shooting as well.

4.) The Secretary of the Army had recommeneded that we keep the system since people who deal with Field Artillery already have a prototype of the system running and are using it in the field. They are impressed with it, and it has been proven to be more reliable then the current systems we have in place. Rumsfield said no no no so they had to cancel the program. Total bullshit since Rumsfield has no clue on how field artillery works.

5.) A round from a aircraft, or a rocket that does equal amount of damage cost over $1K, a round from a Crusader costs under $100. Oh and these smart rounds we always hear about are also made for Field Artillery systems and are just as effective.

6.) To move a Paladin battery it would take like 10 C5 airplanes to deploy them. For the same firepower you can move 2 Crusaders on 1 C-5.

7.) A lighter model can be airdropped into combat, current we have no decent system in field artillery that can be dropped into combat. Oh and the Paladin weighs more then the Crusader.

Overall I have no clue why they dropped the Crusader. The project was running under budget, and within 10 years would have started saving billions of dollars on what we are currently using. Besides we already spent several millions to build the system.

A direct link so you can brush up on your bullshitting skillz
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/cr usader/

This comes from someone who use to be in the Field Artillery and also lives 10 miles from the Field Artiller Training School for the Army.

Re:Crusader?

[glesga_kiss]

Overall I have no clue why they dropped the Crusader. The project was running under budget

I think you answered your own question. There is a huge amount of corruption in military spending. The arms companies wouldn't have been profiting much from the old system.

Re:Crusader?

[Minna Kirai]

There's so much wrong here, I won't go through it all. Just the first complete error/lie:

1.) The Crusader is a smaller system then the current Paladin system that has been in use since around the 1950's. Yes we are talking the 1950's

First, the word is has no place after "Crusader", which is a purely hypothetical machine that has never even been prototyped. (A non-drivable gun doesn't count)

Second (as it says on the page you link), the Crusader was initially planned for 60t, although the designers slimmed it down to 38t once it was clear they were going to be cancelled. But the Paladin is 32t! Which one is "smaller" again?

Most of the strongest objections to the Crusader system were made towards the 60t proposal(it looks a lot more reasonable if you believe that it could get down to 38. But that's such a drastic change, I'd hardly call it the same system). Such a massive platform would have dismal, dismal ground mobility. It can't cross a river, bridges would rarely hold it. Fuel consumption like 10 gallons per mile for both the gun and the ammo-hauler would require 5 fueltime trucks just to keep it in gas.

Logistically it would never make sense, even the smaller version is barely worth it. It's like this: do you use a constant stream of large, slow, vulnerable propeller aircraft to land Crusaders, munitions, and fuel 30 miles short of the target, so they can scatter shells around a position the target was reportedly located 10 minutes ago?

Or just use a constant stream of F-18s to carry iron bombs directly ontop of the enemy, allowing each pilot to eyeball the target before unloading on it? There's no real need to use a whole separate system to for the last leg of the "power projection" journey.

Artillery can only be deployed if you have secure ground adjacent to the enemy. To secure that ground, you've either got to drive in from friendly terrain (a long trip, if there even is any friendly country nearby), or use strong air-power to secure the LZ. And if you've got strong air-power, you may as well use it to prosecute the rest of the enemy targets while the ground-forces are unpacking. And the way US air-power is shaping up, by the time the artillery has fully set up, they won't have any targets left.

direction control) The Crusader has proven to also be more accurate in shooting as well.

The limiting factor in US military firing isn't accuracy of shooting, it's accuracy of targeting Yes, it would be way cool if a Ranger could sight on a hostile tank column, squeeze a button on his OICW and instantly upload imagery and coordinates to a Crusader that launches a MLSI (Multiple-Launch Single Impact) barrage that lands 20 seconds later.

But that means 2 expensive ground assets, which while prehaps very tough, can't fly and are thus vulnerable to counterattack and slow to redeploy against new targets. More realistically, we'd just have a UAV that flys for 72 hours at a stretch call in a flight of F-35s from offshore to detonate a single AGM on each tank.

Sure, there are situations were you'd value the standoff ability of the Crusader- that they, unlike a plane, can hold position near the enemy for weeks on end and instantly start firing if the targets begin advancing. But the low chance of the US ever getting into a situation like that, the inflexible deployablity of heavy artillery, and the cost of developing yet another unproven high-tech system

This comes from someone who use to be in the Field Artillery and also lives 10 miles from the Field Artiller Training School for the Army.

Good of you to reveal your bias. Having invested your military career in artillery, you don't want to percieve it as a waste. Thus you'll optimistically assume that your training was worthwhile, and there will be a place for artillery on the future battlefield. Projects which reinforce this view you support- others can be ignored.

Cavalrymen felt the same way in 1915- they mostly got machine-gunned.
Artillery crews in 2015 will be luckier- they'll mostly just get bored.

Re:$400 Toilet Seat for $500000 turd

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

Sorry, I forgot to put this title on my post.

Re:Conspriacy theories

[smack_attack]

Decisions are never made by bureaucracy; and I doubt 500 federal workers were crammed into a meeting between Chevron, Enron and the Taliban. The difference between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact in this case is that the facts are in plain view, they are just ignored by the major media outlets. You can whisper that Clinton handed technology over to North Korea (which is true) and the news will be the lead story, but try yelling about Afghanistan president Karzai's ties to UNOCAL and to the Bush oil team and you will only find the facts in independent media.

The game is not about just lying, it's about lying and denouncing the truth as conspiracy, leftist propoganda and an agenda of the peaceniks.

Big media is nothing more than a weapon of mass distrAction.

Re:... cost?

[miltimj]

The key with the HMMWVs is configuration. They're much more useful than little jeeps.

they hold exactly the same number of people, don't accelerate any faster, and aren't any better at navigating the offroad

Not really -- HMMWVs have a 10-passenger configuration. We have a configuration in my unit that basically is a mobile cell phone antenna on the back of a HMMWV, and it tops out at about 55 mph down a hill. Very, very heavy, but important equipment to keep the military communicating.

They have pickups and blazers, but they just can't do the job. (and are actually the replacement for jeeps, not the HMMWV).

Re:Conspriacy theories

[smack_attack]

Here's another conspiracy or whatever you want to call it dealing with the Afghan-big-Oil connection.

Still playing catch-up to German vehicle designs

[Ashurbanipal]

It looks like the old-school Mercedes Unimog, only at higher cost, less manueverability, less ground clearance, less flexibility, and crappy fuel economy... A 1968 Mog with a 6-cylinder diesel engine can pull a 16-ton howitzer.

On the other hand, it might be competitive with the new reconstituted Unimog.

in this instance....

[zogger]

...in this instance I was being polite and non vulgar. the actual term used by the "officers" is "F*****g civvies" said as one word. It's a sort of different mindset, but it helps ya get a good handle on what's going on.

I'll tell ya just one of my sources for info, one that really affected me. I have a relative, young guy, entered the army as a career. Half way through to a pension,10 years, his last posting was as a trainer at west point. He quit, even after they offered him a pretty substantial re-upping bonus. His reason was he didn't want anything to do with going to war on the US civilian population. Literally going to war is how he phrased it. I mean he was that blatant and open about it, it was quite clear. He is and was pretty non-political, typical young guy interests of cars, girls, sports, etc. What he was seeing and hearing (and being ordered to teach others in his training) was enough for him to chuck out a career and pension, etc and go back to civilian life cold and just look for any other job.

Just a FWIW

And what's the extra cost of supplying that?

[Spamalamadingdong]

All that excess horsepower has to be fed. It needs fuel, which has to come in via the supply lines. Every one of these gas-sucking monsters adds to the non-fighting mass of supply clerks, drivers and ships required to actually get the fighting part of the army to its engagements.

Which is why the lack of a diesel-hybrid drivetrain for this so-called SmartTruck makes it one of the dumbest things to come down the pike in a long time. Burning less fuel cuts down on the supply chain bulk and cost, and then you get added benefits of less noise and heat (lower observability) and possible stealth modes when running on the traction battery alone (slow, but you don't sneak around in a hurry) make all kinds of tactics possible. Yet this has been ignored.

Re:And what's the extra cost of supplying that?

[GooberToo]

Compared to the 4-12 m/g you get from a hummer, this thing should be great.

As for stealth, well, if you really need stealth, that's why they have soldiers with feet. AFAIK, that's the only official "stealth" activities that is part of our fighting doctrine. Everything else is "low profile", "low visability", etc.

Besides, as I read the article, this is not part of a forward fighting force. This, in turn, further removes demand on the supply line. This vehicle is supposed to be a support* vehicle as is.

Support = rear guard, scouting, patrol, chemical & biological detection, etc. Doesn't really appear to be targeting primary attack vehicle or even APC type stuff. It's basically a multifunction service/patrol vehicle.

Prior art!

[ian stevens]

Put a black car and a black helicopter in that van, and you'd have the truck from The Highwayman TV series. Now if they could only get Jacko to drive it, the USA would be all set.

ian.

Nice, but...

[sporadek]

...how many cupholders do I get for that $500K? I only saw two in the picture.

I worked on this vehicle

[streak]

My company is the one that the govt. contracted to build this vehicle.
Yes, I did work on it.
Yes it is very impressive.

If you have any questions, reply to this.

The truck is the cheapest part..

[xixax]

Chev Silevrado: $35,000 (max rrp)
SmarTurckII: $750,000 (est.)

$715,000 buys a ot of spare Silverados to make up for the lack of modularity. I know it's not quite as simple as that, but I suspect that they are "solving" a problem that doesn't really exist.

Xix.

yep

[zogger]

yep...and no

Information I have is that a huge amount of psych profiling is going on inside the government, both the alleged "civil" branches and the military. Those that would "play ball" with any edicts-ANY edicts-will remain inside CONUS. Ones that are still useful waging war overseas will BE overseas once it starts to "get hairy". Backup forces for internal use will come from some of the newer NATO member states,primarily the old warsaw pact nations, and perhaps some other places, notably mexico.

Humans are humans. In the 20th century the amount of people killed by their own governments is way more than people killed by foreign governments in warfare, ie, nation invading another nation. Every one of those goons taking part in the demonization and persecution of their own people was "someone's father, son, brother, uncle", etc, but they all just "followed orders" when it got down to it. It happened. It's just data.

Obviously not "everyone" would go along with it, but "enough" would. I know too many people now in both the military and in the police(ex now of course) who have quit and gotten out for these and some other reasons, their basic reasons are "they don't like what they are seeing". The older guys are more than a bit concerned over how things have changed. I can't really recreate from memory all the conversations I have had, but that's really it in simple fashion.

YMMV of course, but these are some of the reasons I write as I do, I have to, by what my research and personal anecdotals are leading me towards as analysis. If it was different I would state as such, and write differently. I don't enjoy stating such, but I think it is important enough to take the time to do so when the occassion presents itself.

couple of urls for anyone's perusal, first is to some articles from aid & abet, a publication by and for police, guard and active duty, all of whom recognize the dangers I am speaking of, and have themselves gone out on a limb to comment about what they know:
http://www.uhuh.com/guns/aid-abet/aa-index. htm

another good resource from alex jone's infowars.com site
http://infowars.com/videos.html#takeover

think of it more as a wakeup call than an indictment, as forewarned is forearmed, my purpose isn't to "dis" anyone

one reply for AC, thank you for comments and you are welcome

here ya go

[zogger]

enjoy

one reply for an AC

thank you and you are welcome for the comments

BTW,I don't do drugs or drink. Data is data, deal with it if you choose to, or ignore it. Your call, not mine.

wow, that was funny

[zogger]

--tell ya what mr funny troll, why don't you tell your theory to the surviving relatives of the people who wound up here. Or perhaps, some of these folks survivors might interest you. Too far away to find them? Then maybe some of the survivors from this area might be more convenient to find. Maybe you live closer to the midwest, this might be of interest.

Despotism starts slow. A war with another country they can "believe in". anything closer to home just 'can't happen". People just "can't believe they would do that"

History shows "they do"

Anything else is just a little too hard to comprehend for most people. "Bad stuff" is only on TV, it doesn't really exist. There's a term used, I didn't invent it but it's accurate for this phenomenon, it's called "cognitive dissonance".

When I was a younger man, I watched 5 cops stomp another young man to death. His "crime" was exercising his first amendment in public, definetly non violently, as I was right there, maybe 10 yards away, watched the whole deal go down. It never even made it to the newspaper, no one was ever charged. No pictures exist, cameras on the scene got confiscated.

They were laughing as they did it

I won't forget

one reply for an AC, thanks for the comments and you are welcome

Re:Hmmm...

[technix4beos]

Last time I checked, 50,000/yr * 4 == 200,000/yr. and not 400,000.

Re:Hmmm...

[Minna Kirai]

And just like he said (marked with an *), corporations spend a big percentage of an employee's wages in other costs to support him: giving him tools, a desk, a roof and heat/AC. Plus administrative support, and a little left over for corporate profit... and if not doubling the price, it's climbing upwards.

Re:Nice for Chevy's Ad guys...

[Minna Kirai]

Um, Stingers are anti-air weapons, ok? This truck doesn't fly (yet).

(Sure, a Stinger has enough power to destroy it. But so would a $2k LAW)

Re:What about troops and other costs?

[Minna Kirai]

The trucks wouldn't be reconfigured very often, crews would be assigned to the same vehicle for long periods. Not many will be idled.

The cost savings comes from using the same replacement parts (and mechanic training) to keep all 8 of those configurations maintained.

(The same principle is at work in the JSF, which comes in different AF/Navy/Marines configurations, but on the same airframe)