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Illicit Leaky Capacitors Killing Motherboards
mcd7756 writes "The IEEE Spectrum magazine has an article about how capacitors made with a stolen formula for the electrolyte are leaking and causing motherboards to fail. Some computer manufacturers are admitting to the problem; others are hiding it."
I have a feeling that this is the case with many Abit motherboards. I have been the proud failure of two electrolyte leaking boards.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/04/175121 0&mode=flat
"Indeed, those who have repaired the damaged boards say that they have encountered crippled motherboards from Micro-Star International, ASUSTek Computer, Gigabyte Technology, and others."
;)
Well shit, and I thought the woolly jumper I wore when I built my box killed it. Now I don't have to feel so bad about sending our broken mobos back and claiming it arrived that way! (I'm joking, I'm joking! Nobody tell Dell or the Cowboy gets it.
Good thing my computer is from 97.
HTTP/1.1 400
That was fun, all Abit. The caps develop a bulge
:-)
on top and after a while they leak the stuff out.
Spontaneous reboots, blue screens and all sorts of fun.
I'm just glad it wasn't me doing the replacing
To quote: "The large volumes of passive content in any electronic device means that you have that many more chances for a product to fail". I can see that motherboards that pop are going to be a major pain in the backside, particularly for us small system builders, but what other devices use these suspect capacitors? aircraft? cars? lifts? phones? routers? Anyone care to speculate?
other than this is just further proof of the lenghts corporations will go to in order to make more money. Theft, lies, deceit, are all perfectly acceptable business practices these days, especially in east Asia.
This story has been circulating around for a long time, but this article is a good update on what's going on. I was very surprised to read that manufacturers actually threatened that guy who put a list of problem boards on his website.
You know, this is an all-too-disturbing trend. If you look at the behavior of media-giants, RIAA, MPAA, and now computer hardware makers - they'd all like to see us just locked in our homes, doing what they want us to do, seeing only what they want us to see, and not having any communication with anyone else... because if we can communicate with other people (i.e. by publishing a list of boards that are prone to failure), we'll realize just how badly we're being taken. That would eat into profits, and therefore should be made illegal. Heaven forbid consumers are allowed to make informed decisions..
Starting to sound like Soviet Russia?
This shows that quality comes at a cost. If you truly want to get good quality goods, don't expect to keep forcing the market to make cheaper and cheaper products.
Why would a company steal a formula such as this? so they ddn't have to pay as much for the 'real deal' and then henceforth could sell at a cheaper price and undercut others. When this happens quality suffers.
It has happened in many other industries and frank, I'm surprised it hasn't yet happened in something as stressed and pushed-cheaper as the motherboard and other componentry markets.
Rampant commercialism is causing problems like this
Tech Support : Is there a capacitor leaking on your motherboard ?
Customer : What ???? How dare you talk about my moma like that, tell me right now, who's that #@&*%$ capacitor ?
getSexySig();
It's starting to sound rather like America, and exactly the sort of capitalistic tyrany the founding fathers were afraid their republic could turn into.
You see, the difference is, in Soviet Russia the government owned the means of production.
In America the means of production are in private hands ( the very definition of capitalism) but own the government.
A subtle difference to the man on the street perhaps. After all, at serf level tyrany is tryany, but it isn't fair to slander it with the label of the great "evil empire." It's pure laissez-faire capitalism and a "free" wage slave is still a slave.
KFG
From the article:
"Zogbi cites tests by Japanese manufacturers that indicate the capacitor's lifetimes are half or less of the 4000 hours of continuous ripple current they are rated for."
4000 hours for the good capacitors? That's like 6 months of continuous usage. Surely shome mistake?
The batch of SunRay 1 terminals (first generation?) that Sun recalled due to a power supply problem have the faulty capacitors. They were the same brand of capacitors as some dual-CPU MSI motherboards we had that died.
At the time, I also wondered what other devices may have these faulty aluminium electrolytic capacitors, but it appears the answer is not many; probably due to their cost, they seem to be restricted to high frequency switched mode power supplies.
This is old news! (Sep. 2002) I submitted this to /. some time ago, but it was rejected...WTF?
Links to original (and informative) articles are Faulty capacitors and Passive Component Industry report.
In fairness most of the products affected carry a "Made in Tiawan" warning!
Didn't they mean to say that "Leaking Capacitors Muck up Fotherboards"?
Coca-cola's formula still hasn't been figured out last I checked. Its protected solely as a trade secret, which means anyone who could figure it out by reverse-engineering a can of soda could legally sell an identical soda. I think that would be a little more popular target for a chemical analysis.
Even if you can both figure out what's in Coke and get the proportions right, you still have to figure out a cost-effective manufacturing process which produces that result.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Coca-cola's formula still hasn't been figured out last I checked.
...or, instead of reverse engineering Coke, you could just drink a soda that tastes better.
Coke's real secret formula has nothing to do with any chemistry or anything that goes into the can. It has everything to do with what goes on the can, on the billboards, on the TV commercials, in the product placement, and in the minds of consumers. Coke's success is all about marketing, not about the product.
-Rob
Basically anything that uses a switching power supply or a switching voltage regulator is at risk IMO. That covers most consumer and commercial equipment other than stuff that's physically too small to have one of these caps, or that handles only audio/radio.
I am just curious if the Asus or Abit motherboards that I own might be affected ??
All the failed capacators seem to be from the company JPCON. On my motherboard (that also failed) they are branded JACKCON.
So if you board has these capacators, I'd keep an eye on them.
It's been well established that the ECUs in the '90-'94 turbo Eclipses and Talons (DSMs) were made with substandard capacitors which would leak after several years causing the exact problems outlined here. Traces on the board would be destroyed and teh things would be left useless.
The difference? Mitsubish *never* acknowledged the problem. They just fixed it under the covers in '95 and never told anyone about it. Nice, huh?
Thomas Dorris
My old EP-8KTA+ suffered from this problem. I gave it to a friend who's an electronics freak and he checked out out.. said he's gonna try and replace the capacitors. I wonder if he'll get it to work again.
The effects were that first, I couldn't get it to run with my old power supply. Somehow the mainboard failed to switch it on. I had to use one that would switch on when u switched the power button on the backside. Then it just failed to work alltogether...Ah well.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
I've already lost a MOBO to these leaky capacitors. It really pissed me off, since it wasn't even a year old. And yes, it was an Abit board. I will never cheap out again.
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
Power Supplies also use low ESR electrolytic capacitors. I'll bet some of the bad capacitors turn up in power supplies too.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
However, I'm glad that this is happening to boards that end up in the hands of tech-savvy individuals that can spot the problem. People who buy ABIT, Asus, etc... boards expect a lot from the product that they recieve and are usuially knowledgeable about the equipment that they run.
I could only imagine if this happened to a major computer company, how it would be swept under the rug (which it may already have been). I see that IBM is named in the article, so at least they are willing to accept the failures. IBM is one of the only computer makers that I trust anymore after the way that they handled their hard drive failure issues. Yes, they tried to fix the problem by changing the uptime specs, but in the end, they got the problem worked out without too much hassle to customers (hardware zealots excluded).
I would like to know if this problem has been documented by any users that aren't using products from the manufacturers listed in the article and their expierence with the equipment, service and support.
I don't keep a lid on my coffee so when I walk around I look busy -me
High-Reliability motherboards don't use electrolytic capacitors for their onboard power supplies anyway. You'll only find these types on the typical built like crap (found in the majority of PC's built today)high volume motherboards. 5000 hour lifetime is what you'll find for typical ratings on low esr and long life electrolytic capacitors. This is only 200 days of continuous use.
High-Rel designs use very low esr tantalum caps. like these T530 Series
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
The issue with electrolytic capacitors is this:
All capacitors have what is called an equivelent series resistance, or ESR (great: now we have 2 TLAs that are overloaded in context: RMS and ESR... )
The ESR only matters when there is a current flow through the device - a static voltage does not create (much of ) a static current flow - that is rather the definition of a capacitor. So if you are putting a DC voltage across the device all is well.
However, if what you are putting across the device is NOT DC, but rather DC with an AC component on top of it, then there will be a current flow as the capacitor tries to hold the voltage constant (again, that's rather the point).
However, due to the ESR, some of that current will cause heating of the device (power = I*I*R).
In caps with the good electrolytic, nothing much happens. In caps with the bad electrolytic, the electrolytic breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen, as well as boiling into steam. Pressure builds, and eventually the cap leaks. Since the other stuff in the electrolytic is caustic, your PC board traces rot away.
Now, at low ripple currents, this does not happen very fast, and any cap will have a long lifespan. However, as you approach the limit of the cap, the heating becomes the dominant factor, and the cap will cook itself fairly quickly.
That's where that 4000 hours comes from - that is not the cap running with a few tens of milliamps of current ripple across it, that is the cap getting amperes of current rammed down its throat, and running very hot.
That's also why you use tantalum caps wherever possible - tant's don't have an electrolyte, they use a very spongy tantalum slug with lots of surface area. They don't have quite the capacitance per unit volume that electrolytics have, but they don't leak, either. (but they do blow up real good (sic) when you exceed their rated voltage!)
www.eFax.com are spammers
I had a simalar experience with Compaq. It was on an older system (PII/300mhz) a few years back. I was on my computer one night, about to call it quits and I hear a loud POP! About 20 seconds later the computer crashed and went black. It did that often though, so I didn't think anything oddly of it. I assumed the pop was a tree branch or something.
So I come back the next day to turn on the computer. Nothing. It's dead Jim. So of course I open it up to see what's wrong. When I open it up, I saw the outside casing of a capacitor laying on the floor of the case, and noticed an odd indention in the case. Aparently a capcitor near the CPU on the MOBO just blew itself off the night before and put a dent in the case! I found on the MOBO where the capacitor was, and it had greatly expanded.
Now it get funny. So I call compaq, thinking that I can ask for a new capacitor, because it seemed to be an odd one that I didn't have a spare of. I call up and I say, I need to get a new part for my motherboard. He asks me what the problem is, not listening to my question. I said the computer won't turn on because of a problem with the MOBO. He took that as a cue to run me through making sure all the cables were plugged in, etc... At one point he thought I had it in sleep mode. Moron.
Anyway, he is like, well I want you to do this- and I said "well I can't really do that I know the problem is a capacitor on the motherboard gone bad". He tells me to hit the sleep button again, making sure everything is plugged in. I say I can't do that because the computer is taken apart on my desk. (to get to anything on those you had to take half of the Chasis apart to get to the mobo, which was now laying on the desk). He seemed rather taken back by the fact that I had even opened up the case, let alone taken out the mobo.
So he says to me "didn't you see the warrentee stickers" I said yea, but how else was I supposed to put in a Voodoo 2 instead of your crappy Rage card, and more memory. He seemed to think I was supposed to send it in for that. Anyway, he wouldn't send me a capacitor. And told me to get my warrenty stuff in order and then call them.
Morons at compaq. When I build systems for people, I expect them to take them apart. It's not like I overclocked it or anything.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
The early graphite-colored AirPort Base Stations had a very widespread nasty problem of failing because of two capacitors failing - two Lelon capacitors. Apple acknowledged the problem within a certain serial number range (PW940XXXXXXX through PW952XXXXXX), and fixed the problem for customers out of warranty. However, Apple continued using the same apparently-faulty Lelon caps, and graphite base stations continute to fail. All that's needed is to replace these two capacitors; see this site for background information, and a picture of the Lelon capacitor compared to others. It's significantly smaller, considering the voltage and capacitance ratings, than other similar capacitors. Since it's a Lelon (one of the brands mentioned in the article), and because one of the supposed benefits of the secret electrolyte was to be able to make the caps smaller, it now seems clear what went on here. Apple hasn't made the graphite base stations for some time now, but they kept using the same faulty Lelon caps until the very end.
For anyone who wants to repair their base station - the symptom is all red lights, continuing to power cycle, and perhaps even a faint hissing noise coming from the failed capacitors - I recommend Radio Shack 35V 220uF electrolytics (272-1029). They're small enough that the base station doesn't have to be modified (the hardest part of some of the suggested replacements), and seem to work fine. I've replaced a few with these now, and they've all been working like a charm.
A couple of years ago when i used to work on tech support for Packard Bell machines, we started getting people phoning up saying "my computer smells of fish" - most of them also complained that their computer was no longer working. Turned out the capacitors on the power supply were leaking - and for some reason the electrolyte smelled of fish.
I think maybe they just used cod liver oil or something.
--
cHris
I opened up my machine sometime in December in order to inspect it for this very problem. Because I'd read in the previous slashdot article that Abit motherboards had experienced this problem, and my motherboard was (is) an Abit KT7-Raid (non -A flavor), I was particularly curious. Sure enough, two capacitors had clearly bulged open and were leaking paste, and three more were on their way towards failing. Interestingly, I hadn't had any observable symptoms whatsoever; I just checked the board on a whim.
I consulted the Abit website, and at the time they required the original 'invoice' from the motherboard if you wanted to have them repair the problem for free. If you have that paperwork, RMA'ing the board should not be too troublesome. I really didn't think I could find my old paperwork for this board. Abit offers to repair motherboards without original invoices for a charge of (as I recall) $25.00US. I think you have to pay shipping one way.
I considered using the services of the guy linked to in the previous slashdot article, but his prices were about in line with Abit's. That didn't really help any -- for the amount of money he wanted, I could just have just had Abit do it. I could also have just as easily replaced the board for $45.00 plus shipping on Ebay, but it probably would have just failed all over again.
I felt I could replace the capacitors myself, and as it turns out, I was right. Here's my advice to anyone who wants to try to do this repair themselves:
Good luck. Don't blame me if you scew something up, burn something out, or get someone killed. Send it back to the manufacturer if you're not up to the task, or don't have much experience in such matters. There is a touch to this sort of repair that comes from practice, I think, and the only way to develop it is to get your hands dirty. Or burnt. Or something. Previous to this, I had only a little experience with this sort of rework, so don't be too shy.
Besides, Natalie Portman demands a guy with trained fingers.