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The Demise of Model Rocketry?
Mark Lytle writes "Due to restrictions imposed by the rather broad Homeland Security Act, the hobby I suspect many Slashdotters, being technology buffs, grew up with, the Estes Model Rocket is now firmly on the endangered species list. The little cardboard rockets I learned science with in high school are evidently suspected of being potential weapons of mass destruction. Go figure. Perhaps by getting involved, we can stop this sillyness... Anyway, i hope so...."
Read the article! The problem is not the rocket but that shippers won't ship the solid fuel motors any longer because their employees would have to get licenced with the ATFE.
How are you going to build the motors?
Next thing I know my model plane will be considered a spyplane if I mount a video camera on it. Actually, I shouldn't give them ideas.
Wait until they realize what happens when you mix those two together and strike a match!
Little chance of gasoline being outlawed (if it were this whole war business would be out the window), so I guess soap has to go.
Maybe it's for the best, what with the future of the space program in jeopardy and all. Why turn children's eyes to the heavens when they have no chance of ever making it there. Still it's sad that millions of young people will never know the joy of sending live crickets hurtling into the wild blue yonder.
Over this side of the pond getting hold of engines bigger than the Estes D-size is a nightmare, you need to have licences to handle explosives, have your address registered as a storage area for explosives etc before you can even think of buying them. Shipping doesn't appear to be a problem - they stick them in a van and have them driven to you, for a princely sum - but it is an utter fucking nightmare to get hold of the big 'uns.
I don't see why they do it either, D-class motors aren't exactly likely to propel a warhead any significant distance. Then again, we have had the IRA and friends (and enemies!) on our doorstep for over twenty-five years now...
-Mark
also, wasn't 911 carried out with the aid of BOXCUTTERS? Wouldn't it be more sensible to ban scissors than toy rockets?
That was classic intercourse!
Richard Simmons Videos - obviously a terrorist, have you see all those fat people "suffering to the oldies". Excercise is unamerican.
Chess Boards - Obviously the game of chess is nothing more than a war-game simulation with black and white pieces, obviously increasing racial tension.
Linux Operating System and all GNU Products - If I didn't know any better I'd suspect that someone must be funding these "free" projects, obviously since it's not American to give things out for free, it must be terrorism funding.
PokeMon - it's anime, obviously unamerican.
Honorable Mentions Include:
Duke Nuke Um Forever ... silly putty (ain't nothing silly about it)
The Flying/Electric Car
The True OJ Story
And
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
...but when I was a teenager oh so many years ago, we actually did make destructive devices out of model rockets. No guidance system, but boy did they go BOOM when they hit their target (usually wrecked cars at a local junkyard) and the makeshift warhead went BOOM.
However that may be, outlawing them seems to be going a bit too far. A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a bomb or even a crude missile.
There's a boatload of stuff that be used in terrorist acts. Paper can start a fire. Rags and alcohol can also be used. Gasoline can be used to light a subway on fire. But somehow I don't see them banning gasoline or alcohol. So they have to pick on model rockets? A hobby that encourages people to learn about science in a fun way and encourages young minds to consider real careers.
You know, before I went into technology, I used to be a research biologist. Hobbies like Model ROcketry are what kept me interested in science as a kid led me to pursue all science.
You know, if we had recuiters for Pharmaceuticals stading outside of colleges offering new graduates 10.2 million over 3 years, then cancer would have been cured 10 years ago. Why do athletes, that contribute NOTHING to society, get paid the most in our society?
It's because, on radar, they look just like stealth nuclear missles - at least until the little parachute pops open, but by then it's DEFCON5 anyway....
I imagine it's because they might be used to disperse chemical agents, though the best I was ever capable of was dispering little model rocket parts.
Didn't you know? Rocketry, especially model rocketry, is a well known secret art. With some bubble gum, a cardboard tube, an m-80 and some match shavings, we can make "weapons of mass destruction" that can traverse many miles from iraq to the US.
C'mmon. What's the sense in this. Really. Anyone could be as dangerous with a potato gun and be less conspicuous, since you don't have to set it up, aim it and fire. Anyone who wants to make a rocket can make one if they really want to.
Or maybe now we should just restrict banning play stations now that they have technology for guidance systems in them.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I've been launching rockets since I was six. I taught rocketry at a summer camp. Had to explain the facts of the Challenger incident to kids. Launching rockets perked them up and showed that, at least for them, life can go on.
Basic model rockets (not including the larger amateur rockets) can move fast, but I can't see their immediate danger to the public, as the Estes-type rockets stick to the =1 lb. rule, with very little medal, a plastic or balsa wood nose cone, and limited motor impulse, meaning that it can't lift anything huge. Any kid can tell you that a model rocket self-destructs easily when it strikes anything but air.
Now, I can see some yahoo loading up a Big Bertha payload rocket with a few grams of anthrax and trying to spread it over a neighborhood--that's a sad possibility. Much less likely to use these things as missiles as they just can't hold a lot of explosive charge and would only be dangerous enough in a salvo.
Also, model rockets of the store-bought type have basic aerodynamic stability with fins--no electronic guidance. So, even if the motor could burn long enough (which they can't--about 2-10 sec max), you couldn't guide the thing anywhere. The motors are solid, so there's no way to rig the basic rocket as a liquid-fuel missile, either.
I'd be more worried about R/C planes, which can carry more because they generate lift and can be guided over long distances.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Aren't those considered class 1 explosives as well? I've definitely seen fireworks with more propellant potential than an Estes rocket (just not the aerodynamics.)
Or are all these wussy shipping corporations who would rather piss customers off then deal with a regulation even touching fireworks in the first place? (It's not like they're made in the US, so I assume they get shipped to the netherregions of the US somehow...)
This is stupid. Our government passes all sorts of laws restricting our rights even farther in order to stop terrorism despite the fact that a lot of the terrorist attacks against America have been over seas at our embassies and such places. But the government did such a good job of bolstering people's fears that people are willingly giving away their constitutional rights in order to be "protected from terrorist attacks".
If you choose to "build your own", you will run into the following road blocks:
1. If you live in an urban / suburban area, such activities are likely to be outright banned.
2. If you live in a rural area, you will likely require some sort of explosives permit. The training, filing time will probably require you become a professional at building rocket engines. You then get the headaches Estes is running into now.
3. In any event, your activities will probably get you "good neighbor" visits from the local sheriff, county police, state troopers, even the ATF or EPA (you are working with environmentally hazardous materials, remember!)
If you decide to go "full steam ahead" in spite of all the above, eventually expect a visit from the people mentioned in #3 above. In these post 9/11 times, expect to receive a long "all expenses-paid" stay in a state or federal prison!
No argument that the changes may be excessive. But to claim the government is equating model rockets and weapons of mass destruction shows deliberate ignorance or a pure attempt to get reader reaction.
What do they really need to be taught?
I just see it as:
"Okay, you see these engines... and now you see this flame. Don't put the engines near flame. Fire Bad."
It's like duh! It's not that hard to transport model rocket engines. But apparently we need to train them to Defcon 5 level Top Secret Marine training so they can drive those engines around without someone fearing a terrorist attack by the amazing Axis of Evil.
Man, the news in the states is reading more and more like a comicbook everyday. With Weapons of Mass Destruction, Axis of Evil, Terrorist attacks, etc. It's just a big farce now.
~ kjrose
What they don't want is rocket powered box cutters, imagine the damage they could do.
I for one am glad to see the US government taking such a positive stance on potential problem substances and technologies.
Now is the time to stand up for your rights. Become a member:
www.aclu.org
How about BIC lighters? Each one containes enough butane to make a nice little bomb! Carry a few on board with you... Well I do not want to give anyone any ideas. The restrictions placed on airline travelers are moronic, because they will only catch morons. So now it seems that the moronic restrictions are going to expand to everyday life. I guess cigarettes should now be deemed a weapon of mass destruction too. Just think of the cancer/children/humanity/whatever...
Yes and No.
Yes because in the hands of the right (or in this case wrong) person, they could certainly be used as a "weapons delivery system". They can reach altitudes high enough to distribute chemical or biological agents over a broader area than might otherwise be possible. They are (or at least have been) more inconspicuous than say a crop duster which has also come under scrutiny as a possible delivery method.
No because it is people that kill, not guns. Guns (be they fully automatic assault rifles, handguns, shotguns or hunting rifles), automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives, and many other implements/tools can be and are used to kill people. Do we outlaw automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives? No, of course not. We regulate their use and punish those who use them wrongly. The key is to punish and punish effectively. We Americans have plenty of laws to punish the law breakers, it is just that they are often not enforced or the sentencing is too light thus causing recidivism (IMHO).
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
Kids are indoctrinated with sports from the time they are born. They watch it on TV, they play little league, before JV, before varsity in High School. If a kid isn't a master of a sport before he leaves High School there is no chance of him playing at the College level. And after that there is essentaily no chance of playing in the pros. Compare the above model to how we train Scientists. Senior year in high school, students decide maybe I would like to be a biologist, no maybe chemist, I will just start out undecided.
As a culture we celebrate the wrong things. Who has done more to save lives, increase the well being of everyone and increase our standard of living: Micheal Jorden or the inventor of the MRI
can you name the inventor of the MRI without google?
Free cell phone tracking
... have already won.
No, for real. Now we live in fear, now we are taking liberties away.
Would people before 9/11 have run out of a club screaming and freaking out because someone used mace? Nope.
At a local hobby shop, they now have a sign instructing you to inform the FAA of the approximate day and time of your launches.
For years, people have been launching them on the beach north of Chicago, and some of them can pop up on radar in curious ways. Rather than scrambling a few jets to investigate, they ask that you report launches in advance.
The terrorist attacks were a horrible atrocity, and a year and a half later I still can't understand how anyone could willingly commit such a awful crime against humanity.
It's bad enough that 3000 innocents were killed, but the real legacy of the attacks may well be the ongoing erosion of our civil rights by those in power, e.g. the Patriot Act and its forthcoming descendents (Patriot II, TIA, etc.).
What I've been worrying about lately is: how do democracies die? I think using some emergency to convince voters to give up their constitutionally guaranteed civil rights is a great start. It's like the Communist hysteria of the 50's, only potentially worse because of all the technology that can be brought to bear.
The intersection of technology and surveillance was something that needed to be looked at before 9/11 ever happened, but now... I just hope people come to their senses by the time the next election rolls around.
Imagine a society where citizens are not allowed knives, guns, explosives, anything sharp or slightly dangerous. Now imagine someone manages to sneak a gun/knife through the defenses. How much more damage could he cause because the citizens are undefended?
My point is basically that if you increase defense it will keep the amount of damage a terrorist can do around the same - the weapons they have at their disposal will be less, but they will need less to do lots of damage. The way to defeat terrorism is to understand your enemy - find out why they hate you. If you have no fault then God will testify on your behalf whether you die or not. If you have a fault - well, then you know what you need to do. Don't get me wrong, murdering defenseless people is evil, but the question is whether the terrorist hate for good reason. Stop their mouths by being without blame - then when they murder ask why. They will stand condemned by their own words.
Here in india, owning a gun is a nightmare, there are tonnes of documents and it takes ages. If somebody wants to own a gun it is actually a nightmare to do it legally, and guess what terrorists roam with AK-47s.
In my opinion, your adminstration has gone mad.My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Obviously model rocketry needs engines so that the hobbyist can test their designs, or check if they glued together the prefab cutouts properly. Because there is demand, this restriction opens up some business opportunities. Certain less popular shippers, like Airborne, could hire employees with proper security clearance and advertise the fact. A small surcharge could be added to help defray the added employee cost. Local rocketry enthusiast could work part time building model rocket engines for their friends. There are companies that supply kit that allow you to construct model rocket engines. These could be shipped without the propellent, which could be then be obtained locally. This would allow the individual to build the engines.
Of course, some of the above solutions my be worse than the problem, resulting in kids blowing off fingers and damaging eyes, but it is all in the name of fear based legislation!
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
it was great to see the way the nation reacted by coming together and helping each other out in the days following the attack, but everything more recent than about two weeks after has just been getting worse. we have been dishonoring the memories of those who lost their lives for no good reason by slowly whittling away the freedoms that made the usa something we could be proud of, and by breeding fears of another attack.
the plain simple truth is: terrorism most likely will not affect you! certainly the entire country mourns for the losses families suffered, but how many people were really directly effected by either knowing well someone who died, or witnessing the event? i think that it's well and good for americans to be upset by such events, and to help each other out when they happen, but until it happens again, remember that most of the threats we're supposed to be cowering in fear over aren't really that bad, don't affect a very large area, and are very unlikely to affect you directly.
thank you.
(no offense meant to the parent)
track7.org has all kinds of interesting stuff!
There are lots of hoops. A great deal depends on how high you will go, proximity to airports and military bases, the size of the missile, a whole lot of stuff.
I used to launch small amateur rockets and I remember having to organize things with the FAA for the window of time I would be in the comercial air space. Basically it's like filing a flight plan with a flight controller. They verify that is a safe window when you are not as likely to shoot down a plane.
Once you go above a certain altitude, however, you enter military air space and you have a whole other animal to deal with. They ask the tough questions like "why do you want to launch this missile?"
All in all, I only built about 3 rockets that went higher than commercial airspace. These flew to about 100-200 thousand feet above sea level. (100,000; 120,000; 180,000 to be exact) It took me more time getting all the permissions I needed to launch the darn things than it did to engineer them.
Other hurdles are the handling of the propellants, the little tasty bit of info about solid rocket propellants is that it is difficult to design a solid fuel motor that doesn't explode on the launch pad. Also, there is the fact that in a lot of counties you have to have a fire marshall present when you are handling the explosives.
It's a tough hobby from a legal sense, and probably rightly so. Even from behind a bunker of sand bags, I have been knocked flat on my back from the concussion of a solid rocket explosion that was 300 yards away from me. In my earliest attempt at making a high performance rocket I actually had one explode and later found pieces of shrapnel ebedded in asphalt farther DOWNRANGE of my position. So it is rought with danger, failures are catastrophic, and if you aren't very very careful you will die if you try to build one of these.
Also, I had built rockets with a useful payload of up to 3 kg, more than enough to load up enough explosives to blow up a building, not that I would of course.
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
Wish I had mod points.
This is exactly how I feel as well. Science, which often takes more work than sports, should be celebrated.
Teachers at all levels need to be paid better as well. The "Well, I'm only an average programmer, so I'll teach instead" mentality/expectation needs to be reversed.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
in the hands of the right person, they could certainly be used as a "weapons delivery system". They can reach altitudes high enough to distribute chemical or biological agents
I hate to be the one to point this out, but if you have produced chemical or biological agents and you are still using a 12-year-old's toy as a weapons delivery system, you are such an incompetent terrorist that you deserve the misfire your under-powered, chemical-agent-laden hobby rocket is going to produce shortly before those chemical agents are sitributed to a very small area surrounding your person.
-----[0_o]-----
We are not amused.
I've done simular things in my past, but to do what you did you had to go beyound what a simple model rocket engine can do. Adding black power to the nose of a rocket isn't in NAR regs last time I checked.
When I was a teen we got into a war with the local model airplane group. I shot down one plane(it was cool but really it was a damn lucky shot) with my home made missle. Wasn't able to repeat the act as they were able to easily dodge the missles. We were just wasting black power.
My friends and I ended up designing a semi-wire gide missle using fishing line and a hand held launcher. It wasn't easy to guide(sic) the rocket. You had to fire across the path of the plane and if you ran like hell while trying to drag the wire in the path of the plane you could take it out, if you were lucky and fast enough. It wasn't explosive it used the wire to rip the plane in half. Odd enough the guys flying the planes never called the law on us. I think they just took it as a challenge. They only lost 3 more planes, all repaired, while we must of shot off nearly 30 attempts over that summer and lost or destroyed most of the rockets. As "wars" go I'd say we lost.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
Really, I learned a lot more in undergraduate genetics, microbiology, botany and orgainic chemistry courses on how to be a terrorist than I did by launching model rockets.
Got Botulism? It might take a while to isolate and identify the proper strain, but terrorists don't have the marketing department breathing down their necks to meet a shipping date. They're patient if they have to be. Once identified, it's just a matter of culturing and refining the toxin.
Got Ricin? Yes, the lovely castor bean plant (ricinus communis) produces a rather nice toxin. Readily available through many plant stores. A bit of applied organic chemistry lab work, and you too can get the desired organic compound.
Got GB Nerve gas? Malathion (an readily available and highly used insecticide) and the first component of the binary nerve gas GB are very similar. Any organic chemist worth his money would be able to do some work to make it exactly similar. The other component is isopropol alcohol. You can find that in any drugstore.
Got FAE? Why bother with ANFO (ammonium-nitrate fuel-oil, the fertilizer bomb that has been used in many, many places) truck bombs? A little bit of applied mechanical engineering and you to can have explosives on par with low-yield nuclear weapons. Sure, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide may be a bit hard to source, but you can use others to get a similar result.
Or, as was demonstrated by one nutcase in South Korea, all it takes is a determined individual with gasoline to kill many people on a subway.
Model rockets? Give me a break. Next on the list: slingshots.
How about BIC lighters? Each one containes enough butane to make a nice little bomb!
First off.. not nearly enough butane to do any damage. Second they are already restricted. You maye carry up to two (2) butane style lighters on board an aircraft. The complete list of what is/isnt allowed can be found here
http://cryptome.org/tsa021403.txt
The relevant text is:
(9) Lighters (maximum of two, fueled with non-refillable liquefied gas (Bic-type) or absorbed liquid (Zippo-type).
(10) Matches (maximum of four books, strike on cover, book type).
If privacy had a tombstone it would read "We did it for your own good" . -- John Twelve Hawks
Give me a break. Why not show a picture of a Chevy Cavalier? The odds are far greater that the car will run your ass over in the parking lot, than that any terrorist-related act will impact you.
Does anyone actually take Tom Ridge seriously? Tape up your windows and keep a first aid kit at hand? That reminds me of the "nuclear attack" drill in the Army: Lie down in the the lowest spot you can find and cover your eyes.
Canada has more guns per person than the United States, but they have less than 50 gun-related deaths per year. Why is that? It's because the Canadians don't live in fear. Yoda had it right, fear *does* lead to hate, and to violence as well.
The European countries, primarily Britain, Germany, and Italy, have faced their share of terrorism over the years. None of those countries became police states.
We're all blissfully driving our SUVs around, fat, dumb and happy, and wondering why so many people think of us as spoiled, scared, pathetic, naiive idiots. In a similar fashion, our children will grow up and wonder why everyone else around the world laughs at us when we call ourselves the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
Before you jump to conclusions, I was an infantry officer in the US Army, I'm not a liberal, and I don't eat granola for breakfast. I'm just sick of watching this country slide further into slack-jawed idiocy.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Model railroaders can tell you that rail fanning (the act of watching trains do train-things in their natural habitats such as yards) is in danger, too.
Many railfans are being harassed by police who have a lot of pointed questions when they see a sixty-year old man in a Casey Jones hat pointing binoculars at empty boxcars.