Slashdot Mirror
The Demise of Model Rocketry?
Mark Lytle writes "Due to restrictions imposed by the rather broad Homeland Security Act, the hobby I suspect many Slashdotters, being technology buffs, grew up with, the Estes Model Rocket is now firmly on the endangered species list. The little cardboard rockets I learned science with in high school are evidently suspected of being potential weapons of mass destruction. Go figure. Perhaps by getting involved, we can stop this sillyness... Anyway, i hope so...."
Read the article! The problem is not the rocket but that shippers won't ship the solid fuel motors any longer because their employees would have to get licenced with the ATFE.
How are you going to build the motors?
Next thing I know my model plane will be considered a spyplane if I mount a video camera on it. Actually, I shouldn't give them ideas.
Wait until they realize what happens when you mix those two together and strike a match!
Little chance of gasoline being outlawed (if it were this whole war business would be out the window), so I guess soap has to go.
Maybe it's for the best, what with the future of the space program in jeopardy and all. Why turn children's eyes to the heavens when they have no chance of ever making it there. Still it's sad that millions of young people will never know the joy of sending live crickets hurtling into the wild blue yonder.
Over this side of the pond getting hold of engines bigger than the Estes D-size is a nightmare, you need to have licences to handle explosives, have your address registered as a storage area for explosives etc before you can even think of buying them. Shipping doesn't appear to be a problem - they stick them in a van and have them driven to you, for a princely sum - but it is an utter fucking nightmare to get hold of the big 'uns.
I don't see why they do it either, D-class motors aren't exactly likely to propel a warhead any significant distance. Then again, we have had the IRA and friends (and enemies!) on our doorstep for over twenty-five years now...
-Mark
also, wasn't 911 carried out with the aid of BOXCUTTERS? Wouldn't it be more sensible to ban scissors than toy rockets?
That was classic intercourse!
Richard Simmons Videos - obviously a terrorist, have you see all those fat people "suffering to the oldies". Excercise is unamerican.
Chess Boards - Obviously the game of chess is nothing more than a war-game simulation with black and white pieces, obviously increasing racial tension.
Linux Operating System and all GNU Products - If I didn't know any better I'd suspect that someone must be funding these "free" projects, obviously since it's not American to give things out for free, it must be terrorism funding.
PokeMon - it's anime, obviously unamerican.
Honorable Mentions Include:
Duke Nuke Um Forever ... silly putty (ain't nothing silly about it)
The Flying/Electric Car
The True OJ Story
And
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
'Nuff said.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
...but when I was a teenager oh so many years ago, we actually did make destructive devices out of model rockets. No guidance system, but boy did they go BOOM when they hit their target (usually wrecked cars at a local junkyard) and the makeshift warhead went BOOM.
However that may be, outlawing them seems to be going a bit too far. A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a bomb or even a crude missile.
There's a boatload of stuff that be used in terrorist acts. Paper can start a fire. Rags and alcohol can also be used. Gasoline can be used to light a subway on fire. But somehow I don't see them banning gasoline or alcohol. So they have to pick on model rockets? A hobby that encourages people to learn about science in a fun way and encourages young minds to consider real careers.
You know, before I went into technology, I used to be a research biologist. Hobbies like Model ROcketry are what kept me interested in science as a kid led me to pursue all science.
You know, if we had recuiters for Pharmaceuticals stading outside of colleges offering new graduates 10.2 million over 3 years, then cancer would have been cured 10 years ago. Why do athletes, that contribute NOTHING to society, get paid the most in our society?
The nuns in my elementary school outlawed paper planes, spitballs, match flipping and other various incendiaries and projectiles decades ago. I hope Sister Mary Discipline claims prior art and stops this madness.
Instead of using the nasty word "Rocket" we should rename the hobby the Vertical Paper Propulsion Game.
But really now, you'd need like, 50 Estes E engines to launch a hand grenade a few feet away. I think a terrorist is more likly to use a pickup truck to get a bomb around.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
It's because, on radar, they look just like stealth nuclear missles - at least until the little parachute pops open, but by then it's DEFCON5 anyway....
I imagine it's because they might be used to disperse chemical agents, though the best I was ever capable of was dispering little model rocket parts.
The Department of Homeland Security has quickly begun to erode your rights. Next thing you know, they'll be measuring the amount of methane gas you expell after a trip to Taco Bell. Those who expell too much will be considered a threat to National Security and incarcerated without legal representation.
Wake up you sheep!
When the going gets tough, the average get conservative - Henry Rollins
Word Axis
Didn't you know? Rocketry, especially model rocketry, is a well known secret art. With some bubble gum, a cardboard tube, an m-80 and some match shavings, we can make "weapons of mass destruction" that can traverse many miles from iraq to the US.
C'mmon. What's the sense in this. Really. Anyone could be as dangerous with a potato gun and be less conspicuous, since you don't have to set it up, aim it and fire. Anyone who wants to make a rocket can make one if they really want to.
Or maybe now we should just restrict banning play stations now that they have technology for guidance systems in them.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I've been launching rockets since I was six. I taught rocketry at a summer camp. Had to explain the facts of the Challenger incident to kids. Launching rockets perked them up and showed that, at least for them, life can go on.
Basic model rockets (not including the larger amateur rockets) can move fast, but I can't see their immediate danger to the public, as the Estes-type rockets stick to the =1 lb. rule, with very little medal, a plastic or balsa wood nose cone, and limited motor impulse, meaning that it can't lift anything huge. Any kid can tell you that a model rocket self-destructs easily when it strikes anything but air.
Now, I can see some yahoo loading up a Big Bertha payload rocket with a few grams of anthrax and trying to spread it over a neighborhood--that's a sad possibility. Much less likely to use these things as missiles as they just can't hold a lot of explosive charge and would only be dangerous enough in a salvo.
Also, model rockets of the store-bought type have basic aerodynamic stability with fins--no electronic guidance. So, even if the motor could burn long enough (which they can't--about 2-10 sec max), you couldn't guide the thing anywhere. The motors are solid, so there's no way to rig the basic rocket as a liquid-fuel missile, either.
I'd be more worried about R/C planes, which can carry more because they generate lift and can be guided over long distances.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
According to the link above:
Amateurs who make their own ammonium perchlorate composite propellants will also need an ATF permit to move ammonium perchlorate composite propellant within the state it is made.
Aren't those considered class 1 explosives as well? I've definitely seen fireworks with more propellant potential than an Estes rocket (just not the aerodynamics.)
Or are all these wussy shipping corporations who would rather piss customers off then deal with a regulation even touching fireworks in the first place? (It's not like they're made in the US, so I assume they get shipped to the netherregions of the US somehow...)
This is stupid. Our government passes all sorts of laws restricting our rights even farther in order to stop terrorism despite the fact that a lot of the terrorist attacks against America have been over seas at our embassies and such places. But the government did such a good job of bolstering people's fears that people are willingly giving away their constitutional rights in order to be "protected from terrorist attacks".
weapon of mass panic (WMP)
is that related to Windows Media Player in any way ?
If you choose to "build your own", you will run into the following road blocks:
1. If you live in an urban / suburban area, such activities are likely to be outright banned.
2. If you live in a rural area, you will likely require some sort of explosives permit. The training, filing time will probably require you become a professional at building rocket engines. You then get the headaches Estes is running into now.
3. In any event, your activities will probably get you "good neighbor" visits from the local sheriff, county police, state troopers, even the ATF or EPA (you are working with environmentally hazardous materials, remember!)
If you decide to go "full steam ahead" in spite of all the above, eventually expect a visit from the people mentioned in #3 above. In these post 9/11 times, expect to receive a long "all expenses-paid" stay in a state or federal prison!
No argument that the changes may be excessive. But to claim the government is equating model rockets and weapons of mass destruction shows deliberate ignorance or a pure attempt to get reader reaction.
What do they really need to be taught?
I just see it as:
"Okay, you see these engines... and now you see this flame. Don't put the engines near flame. Fire Bad."
It's like duh! It's not that hard to transport model rocket engines. But apparently we need to train them to Defcon 5 level Top Secret Marine training so they can drive those engines around without someone fearing a terrorist attack by the amazing Axis of Evil.
Man, the news in the states is reading more and more like a comicbook everyday. With Weapons of Mass Destruction, Axis of Evil, Terrorist attacks, etc. It's just a big farce now.
~ kjrose
An anonymous coward wrote:
> Funny, are these things more dangerous than the guns you americans are so fond of?
My, what an "insightful" remark. I'm simply overwhelmed.
I shot off Estes model rockets in my youth. I think the primary danger of these things is to the operator, not to any site they might be targetting. The range is in the hundreds of feet. A slightly larger scale missile might be dangerous if it could be fitted with a payload and launched in the direction of a school, police HQ or the like. I don't think it's appropriate to ban Estes models however. Actually, how many people even use those things anymore? I thought model rocketry was pretty much dead.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
What they don't want is rocket powered box cutters, imagine the damage they could do.
I for one am glad to see the US government taking such a positive stance on potential problem substances and technologies.
Now is the time to stand up for your rights. Become a member:
www.aclu.org
expect to receive a long "all expenses-paid" stay in a state or federal prison!
a.k.a.: Pound me in the ass prison.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
This makes me wonder what is happening with fireworks then. I know there are a lot of fireworks out there that have quite a bit more explosive force, and potental to be used in other ways. I'd bet on fireworks being banned long before the Estes Rockets.
But, Guess if they do ban the rockets, that means a lot less rocket geeks, and more computer geeks or game programmers. I also wonder how many kids will turn to biology since bugs can be found anywhere and extracting body parts hasn't been outlawed yet.
I just hope they don't outlaw these hobbys for kids, since as you know, Saddam does like to dismember his victims.
How about BIC lighters? Each one containes enough butane to make a nice little bomb! Carry a few on board with you... Well I do not want to give anyone any ideas. The restrictions placed on airline travelers are moronic, because they will only catch morons. So now it seems that the moronic restrictions are going to expand to everyday life. I guess cigarettes should now be deemed a weapon of mass destruction too. Just think of the cancer/children/humanity/whatever...
Yes and No.
Yes because in the hands of the right (or in this case wrong) person, they could certainly be used as a "weapons delivery system". They can reach altitudes high enough to distribute chemical or biological agents over a broader area than might otherwise be possible. They are (or at least have been) more inconspicuous than say a crop duster which has also come under scrutiny as a possible delivery method.
No because it is people that kill, not guns. Guns (be they fully automatic assault rifles, handguns, shotguns or hunting rifles), automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives, and many other implements/tools can be and are used to kill people. Do we outlaw automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives? No, of course not. We regulate their use and punish those who use them wrongly. The key is to punish and punish effectively. We Americans have plenty of laws to punish the law breakers, it is just that they are often not enforced or the sentencing is too light thus causing recidivism (IMHO).
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
Kids are indoctrinated with sports from the time they are born. They watch it on TV, they play little league, before JV, before varsity in High School. If a kid isn't a master of a sport before he leaves High School there is no chance of him playing at the College level. And after that there is essentaily no chance of playing in the pros. Compare the above model to how we train Scientists. Senior year in high school, students decide maybe I would like to be a biologist, no maybe chemist, I will just start out undecided.
As a culture we celebrate the wrong things. Who has done more to save lives, increase the well being of everyone and increase our standard of living: Micheal Jorden or the inventor of the MRI
can you name the inventor of the MRI without google?
Free cell phone tracking
... have already won.
No, for real. Now we live in fear, now we are taking liberties away.
Would people before 9/11 have run out of a club screaming and freaking out because someone used mace? Nope.
At a local hobby shop, they now have a sign instructing you to inform the FAA of the approximate day and time of your launches.
For years, people have been launching them on the beach north of Chicago, and some of them can pop up on radar in curious ways. Rather than scrambling a few jets to investigate, they ask that you report launches in advance.
Couldn't resist. Seriously, they can have my model rocket when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
I would imagine that the paranoid US government would see growing tide private-sector rocketry as a major annoyance. They can claim anything from military radar interference to plausible methods of chemical and warhead delivery and use that to stop many legitimate efforts at small-scale and highly innovative engineering. I've read from John Carmack's posts somwhere that Armadillo Aerospace does not publish their flight control software for worry of illegitimate use.
Does anybody know how understanding the post 9/11 government is to private sector rocketry and what hoops you have to go through to get clearance for high altitude flights?
You really don't have the slightest bloody clue what you're talking about.
Northern Ireland is not a province at war these days. Nor has it ever been - there have been serious terrorist problems on the part of both Republican and Loyalist organisations (and no thanks to the support shown by US elements for IRA terrorists), but right now violence is at a low. Unfortunately, it's being supplanted by infighting & organised crime, but it's not now and never has been open warfare. Go and read some bloody history books, ignoramus.
As for "get the hell out of Ireland", talk about a gross oversimplification. Do you honestly believe for one moment that that would solve any problems, bearing in mind that around one million Northern Irish people don't actually want to be part of the Republic?
By the way, what has 1914 got to do with anything? Or do you mean the Easter Rising of 1916, or perhaps the War of Independence of 1919-1922?
The terrorist attacks were a horrible atrocity, and a year and a half later I still can't understand how anyone could willingly commit such a awful crime against humanity.
It's bad enough that 3000 innocents were killed, but the real legacy of the attacks may well be the ongoing erosion of our civil rights by those in power, e.g. the Patriot Act and its forthcoming descendents (Patriot II, TIA, etc.).
What I've been worrying about lately is: how do democracies die? I think using some emergency to convince voters to give up their constitutionally guaranteed civil rights is a great start. It's like the Communist hysteria of the 50's, only potentially worse because of all the technology that can be brought to bear.
The intersection of technology and surveillance was something that needed to be looked at before 9/11 ever happened, but now... I just hope people come to their senses by the time the next election rolls around.
If you want to carry a sharp weapon type thing on a plane, just get a music CD precut it in shape and then sneak it in with some others. Just make sure you are not using a CD-R you don't want to get the RIAA mad at you.
But then again it would be far easier to get a ceramic knife through.
Imagine a society where citizens are not allowed knives, guns, explosives, anything sharp or slightly dangerous. Now imagine someone manages to sneak a gun/knife through the defenses. How much more damage could he cause because the citizens are undefended?
My point is basically that if you increase defense it will keep the amount of damage a terrorist can do around the same - the weapons they have at their disposal will be less, but they will need less to do lots of damage. The way to defeat terrorism is to understand your enemy - find out why they hate you. If you have no fault then God will testify on your behalf whether you die or not. If you have a fault - well, then you know what you need to do. Don't get me wrong, murdering defenseless people is evil, but the question is whether the terrorist hate for good reason. Stop their mouths by being without blame - then when they murder ask why. They will stand condemned by their own words.
Here in india, owning a gun is a nightmare, there are tonnes of documents and it takes ages. If somebody wants to own a gun it is actually a nightmare to do it legally, and guess what terrorists roam with AK-47s.
In my opinion, your adminstration has gone mad.My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Obviously model rocketry needs engines so that the hobbyist can test their designs, or check if they glued together the prefab cutouts properly. Because there is demand, this restriction opens up some business opportunities. Certain less popular shippers, like Airborne, could hire employees with proper security clearance and advertise the fact. A small surcharge could be added to help defray the added employee cost. Local rocketry enthusiast could work part time building model rocket engines for their friends. There are companies that supply kit that allow you to construct model rocket engines. These could be shipped without the propellent, which could be then be obtained locally. This would allow the individual to build the engines.
Of course, some of the above solutions my be worse than the problem, resulting in kids blowing off fingers and damaging eyes, but it is all in the name of fear based legislation!
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
A nice broad, sweeping, law always seems to be a great idea for people involved in legislative groupthink and there is real irony in the this example.
Considering the many, well-understood, and readily-available ways of the creating the means for blowing up--hint: *never* apply heat or spark to vaporized gasoline--a legal dragnet that impedes access to things as innocuous as model rocket moters is pure irony.
You've got to laugh imagining some bearded guy shouting at another, 'put away that fertilizer and help me scrape out nine-thousand number threes!'
We have proof positive that our government is run by people who were expected to make laws for Disneyland.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
it was great to see the way the nation reacted by coming together and helping each other out in the days following the attack, but everything more recent than about two weeks after has just been getting worse. we have been dishonoring the memories of those who lost their lives for no good reason by slowly whittling away the freedoms that made the usa something we could be proud of, and by breeding fears of another attack.
the plain simple truth is: terrorism most likely will not affect you! certainly the entire country mourns for the losses families suffered, but how many people were really directly effected by either knowing well someone who died, or witnessing the event? i think that it's well and good for americans to be upset by such events, and to help each other out when they happen, but until it happens again, remember that most of the threats we're supposed to be cowering in fear over aren't really that bad, don't affect a very large area, and are very unlikely to affect you directly.
thank you.
(no offense meant to the parent)
track7.org has all kinds of interesting stuff!
20 years ago, I was the only kid I knew who was into rockets. And two of the above three things didn't exist yet. You think it's gotten any more popular since then?
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.
Oh, come on, people!!!
The conclusions drawn were reactionary. I don't see any reason why there would be any problem with getting bondable & insurable people to transport these "mostly harmless" Estes engines. What to gunsmiths and black-powder enthusiasts do? So, UPS *might not* ship them? No where does it say that UPS will STOP shipping.
This is nothing but pure "churn"
ScottKin
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
Wish I had mod points.
This is exactly how I feel as well. Science, which often takes more work than sports, should be celebrated.
Teachers at all levels need to be paid better as well. The "Well, I'm only an average programmer, so I'll teach instead" mentality/expectation needs to be reversed.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
Having skipped arson 101, could someone tell me what happens when you mix gasoline and soap and light it?
It's better known as "napalm".
in the hands of the right person, they could certainly be used as a "weapons delivery system". They can reach altitudes high enough to distribute chemical or biological agents
I hate to be the one to point this out, but if you have produced chemical or biological agents and you are still using a 12-year-old's toy as a weapons delivery system, you are such an incompetent terrorist that you deserve the misfire your under-powered, chemical-agent-laden hobby rocket is going to produce shortly before those chemical agents are sitributed to a very small area surrounding your person.
-----[0_o]-----
We are not amused.
(no offense meant to the parent)
I understand no offense was intended, but I do disagree with you.
I think it would be rather selfish of us to think of only ourselves. I mean, think of it, on 9/11, did you think to yourself, "Thank goodness it wasn't me on one of those planes. I know this could have been prevented with tighter airport security, but that would have inconvienieced me. I certainly hope they don't start tightening airport security now."?
So many people complain about how inscure Microsoft software is, but then complain about our country making it's self more secure. Personally, I'd rather have a secure country than secure software...
Never argue with an idiot. They will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
This is about the handling and shipment of hazmat (hazerdous materials). Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant can be quite destructive and we have decided that in order to transport it you should have a permit. Ghastly isn't it?
What the fuck: I can purchase 1,000 rounds of 30-06 ammunition, along with a few pounds of power for reloading, but they think that a few Estes model rocket engines are dangerous.
[sarcasm]
Outlawing boxcutters I could understand, but this?
[\sarcasm]
From what I read in the article about the increased requirements for background checks and permits for shipping these low-class propellent explosives, I would have say that it looks like it will impact america's favorite patriotic display as well: fireworks.
Bush, the killer of the 4th of July...
-Chris
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
Although it's sad that we might not be allowed to launch a model rocket again, the real crime here is that our young/unborn children may never get the chance to do it. I have fond childhood memories of rocketry with my dad; I always hoped I could share the same thing with my child some day.
[figz@figz figz]$ kill -9 `ps -ef | awk '$1=="figz" { print $2 }'`
I've done simular things in my past, but to do what you did you had to go beyound what a simple model rocket engine can do. Adding black power to the nose of a rocket isn't in NAR regs last time I checked.
When I was a teen we got into a war with the local model airplane group. I shot down one plane(it was cool but really it was a damn lucky shot) with my home made missle. Wasn't able to repeat the act as they were able to easily dodge the missles. We were just wasting black power.
My friends and I ended up designing a semi-wire gide missle using fishing line and a hand held launcher. It wasn't easy to guide(sic) the rocket. You had to fire across the path of the plane and if you ran like hell while trying to drag the wire in the path of the plane you could take it out, if you were lucky and fast enough. It wasn't explosive it used the wire to rip the plane in half. Odd enough the guys flying the planes never called the law on us. I think they just took it as a challenge. They only lost 3 more planes, all repaired, while we must of shot off nearly 30 attempts over that summer and lost or destroyed most of the rockets. As "wars" go I'd say we lost.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
Expect more kids to lose hands as the rising cost of proven motors drives them to switch to basement-brewed bombs.
Does this mean I'm gonna get busted for stockpiling the little card board tubes from paper towel and toilet paper rolls?
I just went out and bought some estes engines, I guess I should go buy some more quick.
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
For instance, I could say that since we allow the government to regulate the operation of motor vehicles, it is only a matter of time before the government regulates all aspects of life.
It is because roads are funded with public money and the public uses those roads that the government has any right of regulation for vehicles. We allow the government to regulate the operation of motor vehicles only on public roads or public property in the US. You can drive at any age, drive vehicles of any type or drive vehicles of any condition on your own property. You can have a vehicle shipped by common carrier to any location in the US. As long as you do not operate the vehicle on pubic roads or property you do not have to register, insure or jump through any other regulatory hoops for that vehicle.
Now, you ask where do we draw the line? We don't draw the line. The politicians you have elected do. This is a republic, not a democracy and therefore if you are concerned with this problem, contact your representative and find out where he or she stands. I hope you know who your representative is.
Wrong, We draw the lines. Don't contact your government representative to "find out where he or she stands". Contact them to let them know where you as a constituent stand. If your government representative does not represent you and your interests, align with like-minded people and work for getting your reprehensive replaced. Quit allowing the horse to drive the cart. The people selecting representatives, not people abdicating their responsibilities and passively taking on the values of the government, run a republic.
"I for one am glad to see the US government taking such a positive stance on potential problem substances and technologies."
Spoken like a true coward.
"Oh help me government, save me from the potential dangers in life! Please, for God sake! Ban shit now, before it's too late! But please, for the Love of God, don't stop doing all the jacked up things you've done to make me a target. Please don't! I just want to be less free, I don't really want you to do anything that could make me less a target."
Show me an effect without cause and then I'll believe in chaos.
Why do we hate Islamic nations?
I was under the impression that it was because we valued freedom above all, and they stood for the antithesis of this. Perhaps someone could explain to me exactly how we can fight them by restricting our own freedom? If we allow our freedom to be taken in the name of freedom, then the terrorists have won already.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Goddard Space Flight Center, outside D.C., had the longest running series of model rocket launches in the country. The twice-a-month launches were well run and closely supervised, but Goddard suspended the program after 9/11. It's a shame; one of my son's earliest memories is a "girl with a green rocket" he saw at a launch I took him to when he was a toddler, and he was excited about flying his own rocket. Now we have to drive 100 miles farther to get to an organized launch.
Mr. Heston
You have the wrong guy; I work for a living.
please tell us what many guns "aren't designed for killing at all"
Go do your own research.
I will give you a couple of hints, though. There are many other examples, but I'll let you find them yourself. Look up target rifles and you'll find that they have numerous characteristics that make them far from ideal as weapons, both the styles used in shooting competitions and the styles used in athletic competitions, such as biathlons. Do some reading on the design features incorporated into common .22 caliber sport rifles and you'll see that their ability to kill anything is not on the list of design criteria.
On the flip side, do some research into what features are desirable for guns intended to be used as weapons, particularly anti-personnel weapons, and then take a look at which firearms incorporate those features. What you'll find is that very few of them do.
Like any other piece of technological equipment, guns are designed for specific applications, and they're most effective when used as intended. And, the point here is, *many* of those applications don't include killing people, so blanket statements that "a gun's sole purpose is to kill" are simply ill-informed.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Really, I learned a lot more in undergraduate genetics, microbiology, botany and orgainic chemistry courses on how to be a terrorist than I did by launching model rockets.
Got Botulism? It might take a while to isolate and identify the proper strain, but terrorists don't have the marketing department breathing down their necks to meet a shipping date. They're patient if they have to be. Once identified, it's just a matter of culturing and refining the toxin.
Got Ricin? Yes, the lovely castor bean plant (ricinus communis) produces a rather nice toxin. Readily available through many plant stores. A bit of applied organic chemistry lab work, and you too can get the desired organic compound.
Got GB Nerve gas? Malathion (an readily available and highly used insecticide) and the first component of the binary nerve gas GB are very similar. Any organic chemist worth his money would be able to do some work to make it exactly similar. The other component is isopropol alcohol. You can find that in any drugstore.
Got FAE? Why bother with ANFO (ammonium-nitrate fuel-oil, the fertilizer bomb that has been used in many, many places) truck bombs? A little bit of applied mechanical engineering and you to can have explosives on par with low-yield nuclear weapons. Sure, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide may be a bit hard to source, but you can use others to get a similar result.
Or, as was demonstrated by one nutcase in South Korea, all it takes is a determined individual with gasoline to kill many people on a subway.
Model rockets? Give me a break. Next on the list: slingshots.
Between the Patriot Act, Digital Millenium Copyright Act and the recent MicroSoft purchase of the justice system; is there room for innovation in the US?
Will we see innovation move offshore (along with the jobs) to places like Europe and Asia.
The new restrictions will insure that those currently on top, stay on top; but they may also insure that all of us go down.
They use nitro fuel, which is already under some restrictions, with more to follow..
I guess hobby's are dangerous..
Information is dangerous, independent thought must be abolished too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Folks - this seems to me a temporary move until the powers that be at UPS find a way to do the following:
a) comply with the law
b) cover the costs of complying with that law
c) make a profit on the ironic side effects of that law
So just think - soon, the UPS will be offering a special "hazmat" transport service that transports items like these. The downside - it'll cost more...and thus the items transported will cost more. The question is, are there enough people doing model rocketry (and other similarly affected cargo) to make a profit?
Lawmakers think they have good intentions at heart - and while I think the laws they are recently proposing/passing are extreme reactions to an extreme event, some of them do make sense to respond to the demands of increased security. It's a tough balance - and sometimes, rather than making the laws more specific, it's better for ingenious Americans to find a way to make a profit...and provide a valuable service - while allowing the Government to do their job - protect us.
That being said - I oppose many parts of the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts - simply because there's no way to bypass an individual's privacy and liberties...something both of these acts threaten to do....
This is the type of comment that, given appropriate airtime, could really help George Bush, John Ashcroft, Don Rumsfeld, and Tom Ridge plan a beautiful future for this country. In fact, I bet they have a team out looking for examples of ridiculous statements like this one made against counterterrorism efforts, as material to use in debates when rational people challenge the equally polarized and ridiculous statements the Administration makes in support of its counterterrorism agenda.
The people affected by the 9/11 attack were much more diverse than those of us who worked in lower Manhattan and had our lives turned upside down for a few months afterward. If one counts those people who were affected by the U.S. equity markets being shut down for four days, airline travel interruptions that lasted for weeks, and telecommunications in and out of the northeast being disrupted for months, the circle is much, much larger. And this was one incident, of which there will certainly be more. Contrary to what misterhaan thinks, if you are an American citizen, terrorism will most likely affect you, eventually if it hasn't already.
All that being said, I don't believe stocking up on duct tape, developing comprehensive data surveillance systems, or banning model rockets are appropriate responses to the problem. But I support better airline and customs security, better immigration systems, and the Patriot Act, among other things, as necessary steps to avoid the type of lifestyle currently enjoyed in places like Israel and Afghanistan.
That fire was caused by an improperly stored oxygen generator, which was also incorrectly marked as inactive. ie: The person shipping it (an internal parts transfer for the airline) screwed up.
There are upwards of fifty of these devices in every commercial airliner flying in the world at this moment (some 2-3000 aircraft over the U.S. alone), with none of THEM going off accidentally.
If someone can properly ship me a steak in dry ice, there should be no problem getting a properly packaged C5 engine to me.
No more road flares either, I take it?
Butane does not create a very good pressure wave when combusted, especially not compared to the black powder used in most rocket engines. It is liquid in the lighters, but must be oxygenated to combust well. That is why butane is used to make flames in lighters and torches, not explosives. As a kid we used to blow up lighters by throwing them in fires (don't try this at home hehe). They typically make a large flame (1m long) or fireball (~1/4m diameter) for less than 1/10 second and fly a few meters in the air. A truckload of lighters would make a bigger fireball, possible break some windows and produce a neat rumble, but wouldn't take down buildings or spread some WMD very far. And it would take a lot of work to make sure all that butane had plenty of oxygen to burn quickly. Otherwise it would just burn like a large gas fireplace.
I used to fly model rockets years ago, and really enjoyed it.
About 4 years ago, though, I got into remote control (RC) airplanes. That hobby kicks ass. It's not all that expensive, as far as hobbies go. You can get into it for less than $500, then your additional costs are minor if you don't wreck your plane much.
It's absolutely amazing what a good RC pilot can do with his airplane. The thrust to weight ratio of these planes is well over 1, so it's possible to hover the airplanes in midair.
Having flown both standard sized and model aircraft, I can tell you that the skills you need to develop for both are roughly the same. Flying model airplanes is a shitload cheaper and less likely to get you killed, though.
My biggest regret is that I didn't get into the hobby sooner. As with most things, the younger you are when you start, the better you'll be.
If you're interested, go by any good airplane hobby shop, and there will be some airplane geek there who can tell you how to get started. Better yet, just go to the hobby shop to look around, then ask them where the local model airplane fields are. An airfield will be run by a club that has people who can give you good advice on how to get started and train you how to fly. Plus, you'll get a really good chance to see what you're getting into, if there are some decent pilots showing off.
One word of advice regarding flying: It's a crapload harder than it looks. Everyone thinks that they'll be flying their first time out. In reality, you'll likely not be flying by yourself for your first 5 outings. Take things slowly, and you won't have to do a lot of plane rebuilding.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
I really doubt someone wanting to do trouble would use a model rocket of all things. If you go with the typical stock you get from a hobby shop, you are limited to 16 ounces of payload (IIRC) and maybe 3000 feet or so.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
How about BIC lighters? Each one containes enough butane to make a nice little bomb!
First off.. not nearly enough butane to do any damage. Second they are already restricted. You maye carry up to two (2) butane style lighters on board an aircraft. The complete list of what is/isnt allowed can be found here
http://cryptome.org/tsa021403.txt
The relevant text is:
(9) Lighters (maximum of two, fueled with non-refillable liquefied gas (Bic-type) or absorbed liquid (Zippo-type).
(10) Matches (maximum of four books, strike on cover, book type).
If privacy had a tombstone it would read "We did it for your own good" . -- John Twelve Hawks
When I was young, my preferred place to set off model rockets was in a field across the street from the Isreali embassy in DC. In retrospect, probably not such a good idea, and definately not such a good idea now...
spreer
Actually, cedar shake shingle roofs are/were quite fashionable in certain high-dollar housing developments in the southern and western US. Unfortunately, if they are not re-treated with fire retardants on a regular basis (and, tell me, just how fire safety conscious do you think your average yuppie homeowner is?) they quickly become little better than palm frond thatching at resisting fire.
I think it was in 1983 that a mixture of shake shingles (not maintained), freezing temperatures (for SOME reason, people here in South Texas think that if you drip your faucets, the uninsulated pipes won't freeze, of course the Fire Dept won't be able to get adequate flow to fight fires either) and New Year's Eve (Bubba's kids just HAVE to shoot fireworks, weather AND County Ordinances be damned) resulted in a fire that I witnessed. It burned about 50% of a relatively new suburban subdivision to the ground (estimated average home price in the range of $85-95,000 for a "tract home").
Never discount the stupidity of "normal" people living in large metropolitan areas.
utter rubbish
As a part-time employee of a hobby shop, I can tell you that model rocketry as a hobby is practically dead. In a community of ~200,000 potential customers, I can count on one hand the number of times anyone purchased model rockets as a hobby. However, many area teachers still purchase bulk orders (we're talking hundreds of dollars worth) of rockets and engines for their science classes.
If rocket-propelled explosive warheads are outlawed, only outlaws will have rocket-propelled explosive warheads.
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Give me a break. Why not show a picture of a Chevy Cavalier? The odds are far greater that the car will run your ass over in the parking lot, than that any terrorist-related act will impact you.
Does anyone actually take Tom Ridge seriously? Tape up your windows and keep a first aid kit at hand? That reminds me of the "nuclear attack" drill in the Army: Lie down in the the lowest spot you can find and cover your eyes.
Canada has more guns per person than the United States, but they have less than 50 gun-related deaths per year. Why is that? It's because the Canadians don't live in fear. Yoda had it right, fear *does* lead to hate, and to violence as well.
The European countries, primarily Britain, Germany, and Italy, have faced their share of terrorism over the years. None of those countries became police states.
We're all blissfully driving our SUVs around, fat, dumb and happy, and wondering why so many people think of us as spoiled, scared, pathetic, naiive idiots. In a similar fashion, our children will grow up and wonder why everyone else around the world laughs at us when we call ourselves the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
Before you jump to conclusions, I was an infantry officer in the US Army, I'm not a liberal, and I don't eat granola for breakfast. I'm just sick of watching this country slide further into slack-jawed idiocy.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
misterhaan wrote:
:)
> why is it that so many people believe that we need to be
> any more careful now than we needed to be a year and a
> half ago? i most certainly say that we do not!
There is nothing wrong with ordinary people being reasonably careful and observant. If everyone drove like that, it would save a lot of lives. The problem is being fearful. People who build a plastic bubble around their homes out of plastic sheeting and duct tape are being fearful, not careful.
Being fearful only helps a terrorist control you. Please note that "terrorist" has nothing to do with blowing up things, but rather using terror to control people (either blowing things up, or telling people some evil "terrorist" might blow them up). Oppressive governments almost always rule by fear.
> it was great to see the way the nation reacted by coming
> together and helping each other out in the days following
> the attack,
America is great not because of its bombs or military, but because of the compassion and courage of its people. On September 11, 2001, terrorists killed thousands, but compassion and courage saved tens of thousands.
> we have been dishonoring the memories of those who
> lost their lives for no good reason
And the lives lost for the best of reasons, to save others. Don't forget Flight 93. Or the firefighters.
> by slowly whittling away the freedoms that made the usa
> something we could be proud of, and by breeding fears
> of another attack.
There *was* another terror attack, just this weekend, in Chicago. Only no Al Qaeda members were involved. Yes, the moronic security guard that sprayed the crowd with pepper spray is responsible, as is the owner of the club that violated every fire code in the book. But the government and the media are also responsible for the fear they have been breeding with their stupid terror alerts (based on lies to begin with). Terror and panic killed those poor people, and turned that club into the same horror that the World Trade Center became. Department of Homeland Insecurity: this is the fruit of your color-coded crying of "Wolf!".
> the plain simple truth is: terrorism most likely will not
> affect you!
As long as you define "terrorism" as a real Al Qaeda attack (blowing up stuff, hijacking planes, assassinations, etc.) you are quite right. The average American is far more likely to die from auto accidents or medical malpractice.
Al Qaeda are at heart bullies and thugs. Bullies don't bother those who stand up to them, and ever since Flight 93 and the capture of the shoe-bomber, Al Qaeda has seemed reluctant, even too chicken, to bother with airborne attacks in the US itself. Airplane hijacking has ceased to work with Flight 93, so Al Qaeda appears (from my personal observations of the news) to have moved on to other kinds of attacks outside the US.
The fear of terrorist attacks is a concern for the average American. If fear is getting to you (you feel an irrational desire to buy lots of duct tape and/or have nightmares about attacks), you need to do something about it. Start by turning off CNN (or whatever sensationalist news source you watch) and get your news from places that are less sensationalist, and more balanced. Combat your fear with facts. And if you still have problems, you might want to get some professional help. Living in constant fear is not good for you, even if it never gets to the point of giving you a heart attack.
> remember that most of the threats we're supposed to be
> cowering in fear over aren't really that bad, don't affect a
> very large area, and are very unlikely to affect you
> directly.
>
> thank you.
No, thank you for doing your part to calm people.
"The path of peace is yours to discover for eternity."
Japanese version of "Mothra" (1961)
Actually, model rocket motors are unbelievably safe. You can literally set them on fire, and nothing will happen (Yes, I tried). Few things except an actual igniter can set them off; they're made to require a certain pressure and heat level that is otherwise very hard to reach.
The notion that a free citizen can have a harmless hobby like model rocketry effectively destroyed by a not-very-well-thought-out law certainly should indicate something about the treatment the government dishes out.
A politician (or a group of them) passed a knee-jerk law to make it appear as though they were doing something relevant and productive in order to glean votes, and the citizens pay the price.
Look at most of the post 911 "security" legislation to see what I mean.
A politician is perfectly happy to shaft citizens to further his career... Haven't you ever heard of "screwing your way to the top"?
Maybe I needed to elaborate more in my post, but the connection I was trying to show is certainly not "flamebait". Sheesh.
Murphy was an optimist.
I fly model planes as a hobby. Quite frankly, even for dangerous than a rocket, is a plane. For 150 dollars I have can put a plane in the air with a camera that can take pictures, clear pictures, from several hundred feet in the air. Did I mention it only costs a few bucks to put LEDS on it and fly it at night? Banning model rockets is silly, They won't lift much reliably.
-enigmabomb-
Some people tell me I am sleeping my life away, I simply tell them I am living my dreams.
Yeah, and it's not really this mythical substance everyone makes it out to be. Really, napalm is just sticky gasoline. It worked so well in vietnam because they could spray the shit everywhere and it would stick to the jungle and burn it down. It's really not any more volatile or dangerous than regular gasoline. There are actually more ways to make napalm than you can count, but they all involve, you guessed it, gasoline and a thickening agent. Styrofoam, soap, and supposedly even orange juice concentrate (though that was from the Anarchist's cookbook so I dunno if it's true) will all work.
Model railroaders can tell you that rail fanning (the act of watching trains do train-things in their natural habitats such as yards) is in danger, too.
Many railfans are being harassed by police who have a lot of pointed questions when they see a sixty-year old man in a Casey Jones hat pointing binoculars at empty boxcars.
I would hope that you'd call the FBI regardless of whether the guy was of Arab descent.
The fact that oil is mostly priced in dollars and that everybody is dependent on it is a good portion of what makes the dollar so strong. If too many people price their oil in euros, the dollar loses demand and may inflate a whole lot due to the sudden oversupply of currency.
This might be the dumbest argument I've ever seen. Congratulations.
The opposite of progress is congress
Of interest to this discussion from Defense Tech:
HAMAS TOYS WITH DEATH
A leading Palestinian militant has been killed by, of all things, a remote-controlled toy plane. Hamas chieftain Nidal Farahat and others had been working on a way to load explosives onto such toys and use them as weapons of terror.
On Sunday, Farahat appeared to fall victim to his own designs. He and five other Hamas operatives died in a Gaza City car bombing. A toy plane was found inside the vehicle.
"This is an assassination done by Israel," Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, a leader of Hamas, told the New York Times.
In January, DebkaFile claimed that Yasser Arafat was arranging for the deployment of new weapons: "Model planes packed with explosives and operated by remote control."
Last month, Palestinian toy importers in Jerusalem and Ramallah were told to order hundreds of these toys for distribution to Palestinian children in hospitals. Subsidies from European Union member-governments could legitimately be allocated to this humanitarian purpose. The model airplanes were purchased in Europe and shipped quite openly to the Palestinian shopkeepers.
According to our sources, not a single toy reached an injured Palestinian child. The model planes were sent to Palestinian workshops for conversion into miniature air bombers with explosive payloads.
DebkaFile estimated that the modified toys could fly for about a kilometer, and an altitude of 300 meters.
posted: 5:14 PM
- i fart in your general direction -
I love the taste of napalm in the morning... part of a balanced breakfast!
-- Tim Buchheim