Slashdot Mirror
Mitchell Kapor Leaves Groove Over TIA
Deao writes "Mitchell Kapor, one of the founders of the EFF, has quit Groove. Supposedly he has left to pursue open source software interests, but insiders say he is unhappy with Groove's products forming a crucial part of the Total Information Awareness project. Read all about it at the NYTimes (Free Registration required)."
yeah! even though there were lots of 404s!
Mitchell Kapor was my very best friend (and colleague) at Groove!!
PLEASE, what should I do with my life now ??!
404 File Not Found
The requested URL (yro/03/03/11/1730212.shtml?tid=158) was not found.
If you feel like it, mail the url, and where ya came from to pater@slashdot.org.
by the way, this is likely the worst fp ever?
mod -1 flamebait!
Click here.
fp 4 stef also,who is Mitchell Kapor?
you all look like ESR
try biting your ear while claping your hands... good, now you look like a moron
not the first post. god damn 2 minute-delay between posts. back to my home under the bridge. by the way, what's the deal with all the 'cowboy' stuff around here? i.e. "slow down cowboy!" and "cowboyneal" etc. you know what they said about cowboys...
At least he is consistent (between professional work and philosophy).... Kudos
'ta
fp blah blah blah blhah
http://archives.nytimes.com/2003/03/11/business/11 PRIV.html
I'm glad he's doing what feels right to him but, given the choice, I rather know the inside of the beast then be at its mercy.
-- Insert wisdom here:
SAN FRANCISCO, March 10 -- Mitchell D. Kapor, a personal computer industry software pioneer and a civil liberties activist, has resigned from the board of Groove Networks after learning that the company's software was being used by the Pentagon as part of its development of a domestic surveillance system.
Mr. Kapor would say publicly only that it was a "delicate subject" and that he had resigned to pursue his interests in open source software.
The company acknowledged the resignation last week when it announced that it had received $38 million in additional financing.
"Mr. Kapor resigned from the board to focus 100 percent of his time on nonprofit activities," said a spokesman for Groove Networks, whose software has been used to permit intelligence analysts and law enforcement officials to share data in tests of the surveillance system, Total Information Awareness.
However, a person close to Mr. Kapor said that he was uncomfortable with the fact that Groove Networks' desktop collaboration software was a crucial component of the antiterrorist surveillance software being tested at the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency's Information Awareness Office, an office directed by Vice Adm. John M. Poindexter.
The project has generated controversy since it was started early last year by Admiral Poindexter, the former national security adviser for President Ronald Reagan, whose felony conviction as part of the Iran-contra scandal was reversed because of a Congressional grant of immunity.
The project has been trying to build a prototype computer system that would permit the scanning of hundreds or thousands of databases to look for information patterns that might alert the authorities to the activities of potential terrorists.
Civil liberties activists have argued that such a system, if deployed, could easily be misused in ways that would undercut traditional American privacy values.
"Mitch cares very much about the social impact of technology," said Shari Steele, executive director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group that was co-founded by Mr. Kapor in 1990.
"It's the reason he founded E.F.F.," she said.
Several privacy and security experts said that Mr. Kapor's decision was significant and was indicative of the kinds of clashes between security and privacy that could become increasingly common.
"With the dramatic change of funding availability in the high-tech sector, it's become difficult for companies to turn down the funding opportunities presented by the federal government," said Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. "It does show that some people in the high-tech community, including some of the founders, are not happy with what's happening."
The debate echoes an earlier one that placed scientists at odds with advancing technologies. The war on terror is raising ever more difficult civil liberties issues.
"Computer scientists are going to have the same kinds of battles that physicists did amidst the fallout of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," said Michael Schrage, a senior adviser to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Security Studies Program.
On Feb. 11, House and Senate negotiators agreed that the Total Information Awareness project could not be used against Americans. Congress also agreed to restrict additional research on the program without extensive consultation with Congress.
Congressional negotiators gave the Defense Department 90 days to provide a report to Congress detailing its costs, impact on privacy and civil liberties and likelihood of success against terrorists. All further research on the project would have to stop immediately if the report is not filed by the deadline.
But President Bush can keep the research alive by certifying to Congress that a halt "would endanger the national security of the United States."
The flying hamster of DOOM rains coconuts on your pitiful city.
It's like BoingBoing & The Register put together, with a nice green theme going on. Enjoy your 10 second stay!
"one of the founders of the EFF"
The Extremely Fat Females? I love that site!
The Political Programmer
"Computer scientists are going to have the same kinds of battles that physicists did amidst the fallout of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,"
I hadn't actually thought of it this way, but it's a good point. If in the future I find myself coding something dubious for a government or corporation, what is the correct ethical choice?
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
Is this Mitchell a man or a woman? It's hard to keep them straight these days.
"Mitch cares very much about the social impact of technology" - I think that really says it all here. How would you feel knowing that you are the reason certain civil liberties and rights to privacy no longer exist?
On Feb. 11, House and Senate negotiators agreed that the Total Information Awareness project could not be used against Americans
Oh that's OK then. Its not like Americans would send anthrax in the post.
Anybody remember the line that was used on production lines/ development for the atom bomb? "Our job is to build them, not to decide where they fall."
Take heart, folks. Add this one to the tiny corner of the bulletin board labelled "The world is not all bad." People really do sometimes help total strangers, people really do sometimes care about what their work is being used for, and frankly, i'm ALL IN FAVOUR of a guy who can turn around and quit based on what he thinks is an appropriate use of his work. (of course, i might not feel that way if he felt that what he was building SHOULD be spyware and they hadn't been headed there)I'm more willing to respect a belief the less it looks like it's going to mess with other people's- relatively innocent people's- lives. Granted, we can't all pay the rent if we walk off the job for moral reasons, so choose your battles carefully, and we don't all have a widespread fanbase to keep the world aware of what we've just done. (So when you choose them, do it as publicly as possible.) But sometimes, it's worth it, and i'll lead the cheer. Thanks!!!! Good example of what's not all wrong with the world.
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
kapor would have stepped down if he wasn't incredibly wealthy? IIRC he was one of the founders of Lotus...
Is it just me? Or is the irony here almost toxic?
The atomic bomb worked.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
While I respect Kapor's stand, I'd encourage him to stay engaged and voice his opinions.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Fat Chicks in Party Hats. Those of you accustomed to Slashdot spelling and grammar, or the sight of Kate Fent, will feel right at home.
...I hate having to register.
It's just you.
sulli
RTFJ.
Is this Mitchell a man or a woman? It's hard to keep them straight these days
Well, he has a beard, for what it's worth...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
The more damning problem is situations where the feature creep slowly brings on new capabilities. Until one day you look at the big picture and wonder what you had done.
No, it isn't.
Think about it ... some computer science types answered a want ad for the TIA. Did a few interviews and security checks then accepted a job there. What is wrong with these people?
YHBT, and any guy that impersonates a girl gets easy mod points.
_ YouAreSoFuckingDumbMods_ProvideLinksToHornyUglyPer verLosersGetThePornAnyoneCanFindOnline_AndActullyT hinkIAmNotOnlyAWomanAndAmRealButIMightActullySendY ouPicsAsWellAsDoCybersex.Losers
Shit, you don't even have to put any work into it, just state something vague, say something obivious, steal and reword someone elses post, suck someones ass by cracking jokes, act _ be insulted by sexist remarks yet act like a sex object, etc.
So mods I will send you nude pics I find online if you add me to your frends list and mod me up every time. My account name is "$$SexyGirlBitchButReallyAGuyPretendingToBeAWoman
Maybe he's unhappy about certain "modifications" to his core technology?
Just like Zimmerman hinting that newer versions of NAI PGP (post 6.58?) might have issues.
And why he refers to it as a delicate situation.
Just a thought.
Beta only seems to work for Google. Such a shame.
Office + Sharepoint, will kill the market for Groove before they can get one.
This is NOT a troll either, if you dont agree, do a little research. This Office version might actually be worth upgrading to.
Luckily, XEROX and other private companies were around to snatch them up and not let their talents go to waste.
This kind of phenomenon can't be do much good: It doesn't help legitimate national security interests, and scientists and engineers without the means to innovate don't benefit the economy. If young persons decide to avoid engineering or science completely when a perceived immoral government taints those fields, there's even more fallout...
get ready people.
There is a battle for true freedom being waged right here in America. It's gonna get worse, way worse, before it gets better.
Start preparing yourselves, because in 5 years we'll be fighting for our freedoms in ways that haven't been done for hundreds of years.
Those of you who think I'm crazy, wake up! Your government is not the good guys, no matter what Rush and Orielly tell you.
No spin zone my ass.
be prepared for civil (actually revolutionary) war, hope it doesn't come to that.
Thanks to this google link, you don't need to register: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/11/business/11PRIV. html?ex=1047963600&en=b851b67c98e9787e&ei=5062&par tner=GOOGLE
I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
How dare you.
There are, at last count, 15 people who use linux as a desktop OS. That's 15 potential Groove clients.
All they have to figure out is how to collect a million bucks from each client to stay in business.
Not Mitch Kapor, but Slashdot. You thought Visual Studio ads were bad? Now Slashdot is accepting advertising from the BSA!
The iframe going to google's ad syndicator has the ads. See here
"Boss Stealing Software?
Bust your boss. Report illegal software use."
"Is Your Boss A Weasel?
Stealing software? Report software piracy."
I thought TIA meant Thanks In Advance.
It's a tech company, the only T&A you're gonna find are from the pear-shaped programmers.
When I read this, I momentarily thought he left because he had a Transient Ischemic Attack.
Can anybody else think of overloads for this acronym? TIA for contributions. :)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
why would it be a big deal if they are using the software for collaboration. I'm sure they are using email, telephones and pencils too... If Groove is actually acting as a subcontractor and doing TIA research then I could understand being upset, since TIA is very very very unamerican.
What's next... people boycotting boxcutters?
My boss smelled like cheese. Wheres my front page story?
Does Groove run on Linux? I didnt think so. I think the guy knows his company is screwed, and is looking for a good(bringing him praise from the zealots)reason to back away.
I did a consulting gig recently where I had to network a small conference room. The meeting was to train a group of people how to use Groove to collaborate with each other. I thought it odd at the time that all the people there were government personnel, but now it makes some sense, I guess.
Yes, it is. :)
Well it is a shame that he lost his Groove thang, in the process.
Hey, dumbass, the grandparent posted as AC. So you can quit bitching about karma whoring now.
Important Stuff:
...is of course Chandler, from the Open Source Applications Foundation.
This was featured earlier on Slashdot: Mitch Kapor's Outlook-Killer
I really don't like groove myself as it is cumbersome and slow. The collaboritive methods brought to the table are (as usual) really only good as an "out of the box" system that you obviously have to give up certain desired functionality and features. However, I really don't like the idea of shared files being duplicated everywhere for the obvious reasons of security as well as those of redundant storage and bandwidth usage. The security aspect in case you are wondering goes like this: Imagine country A sharing information with Country B. However, perhaps you do not want said information (the actual hard copy or all the data) to be actually stored there. Therefore they must pull it from a web page or similar type of asynchronous pull. Sure it can be cached and if the argument simply ends there then that would mean that obviously we should never worry about any liberties or freedoms since obviously the cops already limit our choices. Sometimes limiting as much as is possible when referring to vulnerabilities and risks is what can move a system from high risk to low risk. Ok, I admit... I just get annoyed having to synch with every other Groove client and that has colored the views on the rest of their sytem but oh well.
fnord No irony here fnord
Awright bitchez, I'm only going to say this a million times but:
-Linux is teh sux0rz!
-Winders is the sux0rz even more
-All geeks are homos
-Bill Gates is satan
-You all look like ESR
-The only thing worse than looking like ESR is looking like Stallman's manhole
-KDE and GNOME are both turds, Enlightenment for evah!!!
-AdolfHitroll is an ass
-RecipeTroll is da bomb!!!
-Fuck Slashdot for making it harder to do FPs
-Long live the "Naked Posts"!!!!!
-Stupid turd smelling faggotasses!!!!!
-Die Die Die!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, this was not a troll
Paid for by the George W. Bush for president in 2004 campaign
The point here is not the measure of the potential threat, it's the matter of taking action as a matter of principle. It's a valid statement that the two are not morally 'equivalent'- but it IS true (at least in my view) that the two actions are morally parallel in that they do both make a public statement against an actively directed specific use by the government of a specific technology.
When the TIA creeps are sharing your desktop, then you at least have one person who will have said, hey, i worked on this, and this was NOT what we had in mind.
You're right. Practically anything written out there in softwareland could be used to erode rights, could be used to persecute individuals- the question isn't can a hammer be used to break heads? but more importantly, When the company you design hammers for starts selling them to the guys using them to break heads, are you still going to be there designing hammers for them?
Remember, folks, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
6.5.8 was the last source release. Zimmerman has vouched for 7.0.3 See http://www.pgpi.org/files/PRZquitsNAI.txt
Ray Ozzie, ex-Loti and founder of Iris Associates, founded Groove.
Should you leave yours? probably not. Phone lines are pretty generic, and there are a lot of other people whom you're helping by working to get phone connection up and running 24/7. If you were developing a wiretapping device, AND the government were purchasing it en masse to use on citizens, AND if your particular company were determined to help out the TIA in every possible way, AND you felt very strongly about this... AND you had taken a public stand on the issue in the past... maybe so. Integrity issues and all. But you did give me stuff to think about. (nonsarcastic.) Thanks. I respect what he did because i know that i'd have to really think about it before i left MY job...
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
... from http://www.kapor.com/homepages/mkapor/Bio299.html
For the past 15 years, Mr. Kapor has been an investor in high-technology start-up companies (through Kapor Enterprises, Inc.) and advisor to entrepreneurs. He was a founding investor of several successful start-up companies, including UUNET Technology and Real Networks. He is a director of Real Networks (RNWK), Allaire Corporation (ALLR), and Groove Networks, a new startup founded by Ray Ozzie, the developer of Lotus Notes.
Being a director of Real networks that got into so many privacy issues, I am not sure what he has done to prevent?
appropriate, considering the topic
Microsoft is one of the major Groove investors. Groove technology is heavily based on MS tech. So consider this: is Groove a skunkworks for MS? Will the "issues" prompting this guy's departure make its way onto the MS platform, not necessarily as Groove products, but bundled with the OS?
I think that's silly. What other products, other than operating system software, does the TIA use? Are the makers of all those other products also committing an ethical breach?
I believe that contributing to free/open source software is ethically good. Making the world a better place is a good thing. Generosity is a good thing. If your main concern in distributing free software that you write is: how can I manipulate the licence terms to hurt those people that I don't like, then your ethical system is in serious need of debugging.
There is a good pragmatic reason why the Free Software and Open Source rules forbid us to put restrictions into our licences forbidding our enemies from using our software. If we did that, then a software distribution containing software from thousands of different authors (like Red Hat) would have a combined enemies list that would probably prohibit just about everybody from using the software. But beyond that, I also think such restrictions are unethical.
Doug Moen.
I have written a truly remarkable program which this sig is too small to contain.
Most of us are either apathetic or whores ...
... now there are people who will embrace such a system despite its dangers, but to think most will not do it for purely selfish reasons is naive.
Everyone smart enough to participate in a project like this understands that if a true fascist government ever took over these kinds systems would be used by them to squash any opposition. It helps prevent terrorism, and it makes an oppressive government which can not be effectively opposed possible. It goes against everything US stood for in its past
After all, most of the "communist Dictators" get their software from US companies.
The govt may pass laws to monitor everything electronic, but it's still a free society--if enough techs refuse to work on such projects then maybe they won't happen...or at least be so screwed up they won't work.
Maybe CmdrTaco could devote a part of the YRO dept to blacklisting programmers that work on projects that are against our civil rights! Then the Open source groups could refuse patches from them, employers could refuse employment, girls could refuse to date them, etc.
Office is not groupware. Just a suite of applications strapped together.
...another moist groove?
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Oh wow! I'll alert the media.
I don't know how it is now, though it didn't at least in the beginning seem to be built for very large groups of collaborators (something which I myself am interested in). You couldn't use it to say, assemble thousands of pieces of information, I think.
But if you say compiled a weakened encryption algorithm into it and promoted its use by seeding it or maybe making it part of an OS, maybe even having it report back to homebase occasionally on how it is used, then yes it could be a very strong big brotherish tool, good for all kinds of law enforcement things. Think of distributed keyboard loggers.
So, my questions:
1) How can we know it ISN'T poisoned in one of these ways. Kapor has been around the block a few hundred times and I doubt he would quickly quit something so quickly.
2) How can all other collaboration software binaries be tested for poisoning if indeed the strategy has become to just poison every groupware tool around there.
3) Being paranoid as we should when we are talking about private communications and the government, we should assume that a lack of clear and detailed response from both Kapor and his equals the existence of a gag order.
4) TO CONTINUE #2 above, how can we safeguard ourselves against similarly poisoned rpms in distro cdroms/ftpsites? Should easier to use sandboxes be developed to guard against this kind of problem?
The obvious question no one seems to ask
is *how* Groove software will be used in
TIA.
If DOD uses linux, linux is still open source
and auditable. It's not going to collaborate
automatically with DOD/TIA/DOJ.
If DOD/DOJ/TIA uses Groove, will it be
the copies in the Pentagon or the copies in
**your** office?
Sure, you can be sure they WILL NOT SHARE the
results. Poindexter says so.
you lick the perenium, you dirty bastard. that's some filthy fucking shit. i've seen her pussy, and it ain't kosher... dingleberryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, nasty poo-poo!!! she's got dingleberryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, funky doo-doo