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State of 3d Graphics on Wireless Devices
An anonymous reader writes "This
Computer Graphics World Magazine article
discusses the current and future state of 3d graphics on wireless platforms. Apparently Japan is ahead of the game with a relatively standardized 3d render engine. Seems like the main use is for 3d virtual pets and the standard sort of games one might expect. What I'm waiting for is what I believe to be the next step; the one described in, oh, so many sci-fi novels... a personality for my handheld! Imagine, if you will, a
personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
How about they build reasonable networks in the US first! Half the time when I ask "Can you hear me now?" I get a "what?" in reponse.
Keep your 3d graphics, give me a phone that works well and consitantly first.
What I'm waiting for is what I believe to be the next step; the one described in, oh, so many sci-fi novels... a personality for my handheld!
What, are you nuts? A personality? What about huge bouncing boobies?
"Imagine, if you will, a personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
Great. Clippy for my cell phone. Wonderful idea.
Forget 3D on wireless, I just want decent 3D graphics on my PC!
;-)
I really should replace my VooDoo 1 card someday...
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
...is Virtual Valerie CE. Well, that and an attachment to my other battery operated device...
I'll sit this techno fad out...
;-)
Let me know when I can play UT2003 on my cell phone using a 1280x1024 virtual screen that's projected straight into my retinas. Oh yeah, and wireless broadband net access of course.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Until computers/processors begin to approach the complexity of the human brain, you can forget about ...a personality for my handheld! unless you're willing to settle for a souped-up 3D cousin to Clippy(tm).
The level of present 'chatterbots' doesn't even live up to their lowly title.
See www.chatterboxchallenge.com and cry for real AI
I'm saddened that it appears ALL the new wireless phones coming out are active matrix color screens. I personally would prefer form over fashion in this case, and would be happy with a conventional indiglo type displace.
The benefit: greatly increased battery life. Even with the new-fangled lithium-polymer (and soon to be proton-polymer) technology, the full color display are batter wasters!
1) MSAvatar - Where would you like to go today?
2) OpenSourceAvatar - You wanna go somewhere, go there yourself!!
...and it looks like a big, smiling, 3-d paperclip...
I am the man with no sig!
something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
Ever considered human contact? You know "IRL"
I'm done imagining that. No offence to the supporters of such a UI, but it's a lot quicker for me to look down at my watch and see the time than it is for me to look down, see a teddy bear, ask it the time, and listen for it to tell me the time and that it loves me.
Imagine, if you will, a personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?
;)
Is this a dream for the future, or the plot of an upcoming Disney movie..?
until I get a personality like the guy in Mona Lisa Overdrive, or at least the librarian from Snowcrash.
When people say "attitude" what they really mean is that they want the device to be more like a woman. For instance, my friend has an SUV that talks. If he doesn't have his seat belt on it will keep nagging him until he does. Now you want to have a PDA that doesn't respond unless you tell it you are sorry and promise to buy it an upgrade? I blame feminism, and you should too.
Imagine, if you will, a personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
If I punch the touchscreen will the avatar take damage for being such a worthless piece of s***?
Add that feature, and you can bring clippy back.
The ______ Agenda
I'm not getting one before I can play Doom 3 on it. Allright, allright, let's not demand resolutions higher than 1024x768, but at least I want 4xFSAA.
...no one seems to really understand the complexity of what they're asking for. I hear this kind of talk daily, so the author is not to blame; but without even getting into philosophical issues, the idea of AI is so far beyond anything we actually understand right now, that it shouldn't really even be mentioned. Now an interesting and far more feasible idea would be a 3D GUI for our cellphones AND computers. That is both within our reach, and reasonable for increased productivity. Why limit our usage to the flat plane of the screen? There are already 3D GUIs in the works -- a good one would revolutionize computing far more than a cellphone that cracks jokes.
"Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
How long before the average slashdotter talks to no humans in a day, then negative humans?
It's also a lot easier to type './executable', rather than open a folder, find an icon, and double click on it.
Guess which route is more popular?
Hopefully, though, we won't see such idiocy spread to the rest of existance. I mean, with the advent of 'digital' watches, even a moron can tell time accurately and quickly.
Sometime ago, I read an article that had 2 persons talking through graphic interfaces on handheld devices.
It sounds like a wonderful interface, but doesn't it ultimately come down to bandwidth?
A good 3D rendered graphic is BIG! The devices are getting more powerful, but the bandwith hasn't. But then technology does improve each day, eh?
Here I come to save the da... *thud*
I gotta get me a shorter cape.
Why wouldn't you want it ... wouldn't it be neat to play Quake Or somthing of the sort on your Cellphone. This would also mean you could use nifty 3D menus (kinda like the Gamecube has) Plus it brings room for enhancements.
Personally I think it's a good idea
Solosoft.org - Your Online Resource to Nothing
A great big gaping 3D gay asshole.
(But the mac faggots will take the nuts too)
many would rather have the board space used to enhance telephone range/reception, if given the choice.
Now I personally like a well-rounded telephone/PDA/etc (why I purchased a P800), but I could see that many would rather have a phone with better reception -- I note that my p800 is larger than my v60, and does not get as good reception using the same network in the same areas.
"Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
...I don't want to have ANYTHING to do with it!!!
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
new life for Microsoft Bob...
never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
voice recognition, audio response, and handwriting recognition all go to the top of my list as things to improve productivity.
I would picture a 3D GUI, properly set up, as giving me virtually infinite "desktop space" compared with all the flat icons stacked on top of each other right now. I would love to have a single area where there were related documents were stacked on top of each other, for example. I suppose I picture something akin to my desk at work, with shelves and drawers, etc... .
As I said, it would have to be a good one, and I must admit I haven't yet seen a 3D GUI I'd replace my home computer GUI with. Something just doesn't feel quite right. Like it's not fluid enough yet. Maybe I'm too hopeful?
"Owning a computer is like having your very own TV -- with a built in radio!" - Ed Helms
Make my avatar a split personality, with my hand on the switch - Belldandy when I feel good and Faye Valentine when I wanna be baaad.
but come on, a touch of attitude?
Do you really need more reasons to be mad at your PDA?
Just give Joe a PDA that sasses back and watch as he chucks it across the room into the wall at 50 miles per hour. Actually, that'd be awesome for Palm et al--more broken pdas yields more pda replacements...
Just think, video game future becomes reality... and we can have Rockman, Gutsman, Cutman, etc. on our PDA's to hack into the network for us!
(If you haven't yet played Rockman.EXE/Mega Man Battle Network, I recommend it.)
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
I guess I certainly see having more space be a benefit.
I don't like the multiple desktop switching much because it's too hard for me to keep track of stuff, you know out of site out of mind.
I guess if I had a 3d space where each of the desktops were layed out in front of me in sort of a half circle where I could see all of them at once, and choose to zoom in on one that would be helpfull.
the UI I definitely don't want to see is the one from that damn movie...what was it...err..Minority Report.
heh, it almost ruined the movie for me, everytime I saw him working it I was thinking to myself, god you must get really tired working an interface like that...how would some really old person use it like my grandma
c
My sister works on the Avatar technology that is mentioned in this article (at Haptek), and I must say that it is pretty stunning in real life. I haven't seen it on the handhelds, but using it on the PC is pretty damn good looking - much higher res and more believable mouth movement for speech than I have seen anywhere else. And I must say that it is always fun to have it try and pronounce impossible words :) When I first saw it, it definitely made me flash to "Snow Crash".
First Falcon-1 to orbit, then Falcon-9. Then I can die a happy man.
Apparently Japan is ahead of the game with a relatively standardized 3d render engine.
OpenGL is perfectly suited to 3D rendering on handelds, with the caveat that software rendering for OpenGL, which is to say, Mesa, has not been seriously optimized for this purpose. This is only because there hasn't been much manpower focussed on the job, to date. What's needed is some more thinking like this.
After all, it's just a matter of programming.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
I don't think so. It would be a great idea, but so would the Matrix being real.... and we are just no where near that in technology. I've tried both HAL and HAL with ALICE and they suck. The conversations are not at all intelligent - unless you consider having a conversation with a 3 year old intelligent. I've even downloaded plugins for HAL that was supposed to make it smarter, as well as I took advantage of it's "learn from text" and had it "read" a text version of "The Network Encyclopedia" which afterwards I asked it "What is a toekn ring" and it replied by opening up "google" and doing a search for token ring - lame laME LAME!
Ave Molech Setting
If I was moderating you'd get my vote! I'm in Canada and coverage in my part of the country actually isn't that bad--of course things in places like the mountains or in Tumbleweed sask. are dismal if you want digital ANYTHING. Beyond that, customer service is ATROCIOUS (thank God my service has been pretty reliable)!
Affordability, reliability, good service--THAT is what is foremost in my mind with wireless technology right now. What good are polyphonic ringtones, fancy colour screens, digital cameras, 3-d graphics and so on in my cellphone if I can't TALK on the damn thing half the time? If I wanted to play games on a tiny screen or take crappy snapshots I'd buy a gameboy and a $50 digital camera.
3-D graphics? No thanks--I'll stick to my trusty, sturdy little Nokia 5165. Its little monochrome LCD is easy to read and has a good backlight. I can talk on it, send text messages with it, use caller ID and store my numbers and email addresses on it. It has some simple games that evoke fond memories of the Atari 2600. I rarely need to charge it more than once a week. Calls after 6 and on weekends are flat rate.
I'll be interested in bells and whistles when they don't chop my battery life to bits, cause the phone to lock up or allow viruses and worms to mess things up and there is acually USEFUL internet content, service and coverage out there. I'll be even MORE interested when the monthly phone bill stays under $100.
Would you prefer the "Max Headroom" obnoxious type, or the "Al" helpful-in-a-vague-sort-of-way type?
Or perhaps you would appreciate the "Kitt" state-the-blatantly-obvious type.
- OrbNobz
This post provides tactile feedback. Put on your PowerGlove and touch it!
I don't know the "Full-Bodied Characters" but I know who Talking Heads is. I'm sure David Byrne will be pleased to hear that his band is so important to the future of wireless technology.
"Imagine, if you will, a personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
Bonzo buddy for wince!
The two main standards currently under development are OpenGL ES by the Khronos group and the JSR-184 headed by Nokia. If you read through the list of participating companies, you'll notice a good bit of overlap; we can expect the two APIs to play quite nicely together.
Mobile 3D hardware will also be coming probably sooner than what most people think. Some Ericsson researchers will be giving a SIGGRAPH talk on the subject ("Graphics for the Masses: A Hardware Rasterization Architecture for Mobile Phones") even if nothing more than the title is known at this time.
While all mobile devices will have to make their own compromises on functionality, battery life, weight and cost, almost all of them are capable of running 3D graphics when the software is carefully constructed. Many modern software rendering techniques are based on dynamically generated/compiled code, and the processes are very similar to what happens inside 3D hardware. As these libraries will also be fairly small, they will not add cost or weight to the devices themselves. 3D chips will be reserved to those more keen on playing games on the road.
The technology is definitely coming, now all we need to do is invent the killer application. Ideas anyone?
Jouni
Jouni Mannonen | Game Designer, Consultant
VirtuaGirl already makes this for the desktop. If they manage to port it they should get a lot of business :)
The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
So some scriptkiddy can create a virus which switchs the personality from 'loving pda' to 'evil bitch' which wakes you up at midnight!
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Damn, I just got a new phone with the new VooDoo 3DFX Mobile and Nvidia comes out with their new Nvidia GeForceMobile ARP983X-412. As soon as you buy it, it's obsolete! Can't wait for that new ATi All-In-Phone Pro 1002-AX next month! I hear it does circles!
As was the hit of last years SIGGRAPH, Haptek had a great 'boobies bouncing' demo. I don't see it on the site but I remember watching it and I was great (dispite the embarassment of the Intel Corporate types).
But check out this game available for ARM handhelds. Its available here, and is actually pretty cool. I'm not sure if someone has already ported Quake to ARM processors (I'd be very surprised if they haven't), but the current crop of ARM processors seem to be high powered enough to run demanding applications.
Oh yeah, the yet in the subject refers to the fact that ARM devices are making the push to the wireless space in a big way.
your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?)
Perhaps you mean daily endeavors? Or perhaps it was a Freudian slip.. perhaps what you really were referring to is the people you devour daily! Your horrible secret is out now, CmdrTaco!
The truth is out there! I want to believe! And stuff!
In other news, would it really be so hard to implement a spell checker for Slashdot? Spellcheck.net has a nice interface for web-based ones..
Or are you just of the opinion that doing so would ruin the reputation of the community?
The push on Cell Phones almost seams contradictary at times. I have a Sprint PCS vision phone, with a list of features as long as my arm, and I know how to use three of them. Maybe. It's not that I can't figure it out, it's that the phones are not condusive to such things.
3D graphics wouldn't be so hard to do in this environment, assuming they stick with the little screens and the bad interfaces. I know that my phone can actually have some pretty cool games, but the actual buttons on the phone, or the "control stick" as well, are about as accurate as using a half-chewed pretzel on an older PDA. Especially if you have fingers larger than your average six-year old.
I'd have to agree that it'd be nice to see work done on the networks. My phone has a habit of wandering out of it's calling coverage (a tower less than a mile away) if held sideways or at an angle (say, against your ear. But how often will that happen). The push for more features that would imply something a little larger and nicer is in opposition to a smaller package you're finding phones in. Unless they all start to look like PDA's, or better yet, Game Boys, I just see this as another feature to add $5 to my bill that I'll never use.
What really irks me with all these fancy schmancy geforce fx based latops coming around the bend is that NO ONE has plans for dual headed 3d accelerated lap tops.
I'm not talking about your stupid "LCD + VGA" or "LCD + S Video" junk here, I want good ole dual VGA out. Not only is dual monitor the way god himself intended, but how in the world are we supposed to use the badass stereoscopic vision gear that slowly trickles down the pipeline?
I really want to order a nice stereoscopic headset, but theres nothing I can plug it into these days! Unless I go Evangelion style and invest in half a mile of power cable.
Maybe the world just spites me.
Myren
Do we really want to see this? Well, I guess on Slashdot, a Microsoft flop is something people do want to see...
Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
I have enough crap in my life to deal without having to cope with appliances giving me 'attitude'.
An 'attitude' from a PDA based on near-current technology would surely be as intolerable as a bad attitude from, say, an employee or manservant with the IQ of an imbecile (slow, insufficient memory, poor software) who frequently forgets things, falls asleep just when you need him (flat battery syndrome) and even has occasional fits (locks up neeeding a cold reset).
If the technology improves to the point where the PDA is clever enough and reliable enough that we can more or less turn over to it the responsibility for running our lives (for this to happen it needs to be intelligent in the sense of creative, proactive and insightful) - then maybe we can put up with attitude.
Actually, if that were to happen we'd deserve it.
I mean, really, have you heard of an 'end-all/be-all' voice recognition system? When voice recognition systems can match the speed of typing and be accurate, -then- we can mess with all these concepts such as avatars.
Sure, some day we may be assaulted by commercial avatars that refer to me by name, but dammit, I want to be able to say "Fuck off" and have them understand it!
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
... they need models of their specific user: how the user likes to use the device, what knowledge of the device the user has, what the user is trying to do with the device presently, what emotional state the user is in, etc. A model of this type with minimalist presentation would be far superior to a pretty 3D visualization in helping the assistant do its job.
note that by this hypothesis a personal assistant should collect plenty of data about the user before ever interdicting - as opposed to making an immediate clippy-like interruption of the user's activities. appearing only in the proper context will also positively impact how the user feels about the assitant. if the assistant's first impression is "an annoyance that interrupts me when i am trying to do something" it will likely be shut off and never get a chance ot help the user. on the otherhand, if the assitant only appears when the user definitly needs help, he will viewed as "a friend that helps me when i am stuck" and will likely be given more chances to help the user in the future.
btw, i am a 3D animator by profession and a computer scientist by education and i still think that a fancy 3D model is not the right tool for the job.
Now that would be quite cool to have on the phone's display.
;-)
Another option would be to allow people to send pictures of their faces to their friends' phones which could be used as a skin for the avatar when talking to them on the phone. If it could lip sync to the sound and be controlled remotely (ie, the other person presses a key to make their representation smile or frown etc) then that would be real cool
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
Top 10 phrases spoken by cell-phone avatars:
10. "No, I dont know the way there, why dont you just stop and ask directions?"
9. "You really need to clean out your pores."
8. "Just because I'm small enough to fit in your mouth doesn't mean you have to actually show everyone."
7. "How would I know where the charger is?"
6. "Hooweee, when yo' mamma sees yo' bill, she gonna whup yo' ass!"
5. "an-NUN-ci-ate!"
4. "Elf is about to die. Hah! Get it? Bah, kids these days."
3. "Whoa dude, that is NOT an earpiece!"
2. "What, you think I enjoy being that close to your crotch?"
And the Number One phrase spoken by cell-phone avatars....
"Stop looking at me and watch the #@$@#$ road!"
It's not gonna happen soon. The problem with the US, compared to most of Europe and Asia, is it's too damn big and empty. There are many areas with low population density, and cell transmitters cost money. The economic return on 100% coverage does not justify the cost. Canada is probably in the same boat.
yes .. built in avatar eh?
to help you with your tasks... eh?
sounds like another paperclip to me
-judging another only defines yourself
"We're trying to make things move in 3D, in a limited environment--that's the challenge."
Good god, could there POSSIBLY be ANY better candidate for this than old demoscene programmers that built 3D raytrace engines from scratch in assembly on 386/33 boxen that ran at 30fps?! That was the first thought that popped into my mind, at least. I imagine that these are probably much more powerful than a 386 anyway. Find some of the old (school|skool) demosceners and set them to work. I bet they'd create some really impressive stuff.
[insert witty comment here]
Yeah I can do with out 3d, I'd rather have next gen data connectivity (GSM's EDGE for instance).
But, I wouldn't get caught dead playing a frickin' game on my phone anyways. BLOOP BLEEP BLOOP...
Before looking into 3d graphics, I think there's a much more fundamental necessity that needs to be addressed : A purpose for handhelds!
Sure, they're light, they store text and run cutesy little windows applications, but what the hell are they used for, that a 20$ Casio Organizer can't do ?
If I wanted to play games on a 500$ PDA, I'd whack myself in the face and pick up my GameboyAdvance instead. PDA's are NOT computers, they are "Portable Digital Assistants". Playing games on a PDA is even dumber than running MAME on your TI-82 super calculator (because the TI-82 calculator belongs to a student who probably enjoys tetris during those long lectures). If you can afford a beefy PDA that can run games, you can probably afford a dedicated portable game console and save the thousands of game programmers who are forced to cope with substandard hardware and low-low graphics resolution and colour gamut.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
We all want this because we have no friends.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
a personalized avatar or something that can interact with you and perhaps assist you in your daily endevours (with a touch of attitude?).."
Me: OK phone, time to call that hot chick about tonight...
Phone: No, you should call your mother first!
Me: What? No! Hot chick time, please.
Phone: Your mom has called five times and left messages that you've never returned.
Me: So what - she can wait - get me the hot chick, I'm ultra horny!
Phone: You shouldn't treat your mom that way! I'm half inclined to delete that wanton harlot's name and number from my database. I think I'll call her and tell her what you've been up to. Or, maybe I'll do a conference call and let all your hot chicks find out about each other!
Me: Don't you dare you little piece of....
Phone: [click] Talk to the hand...
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
So any bets on how long it takes MS to come up with a 3D paperclip...?
I have seen Doom being played on the Sony Ericsson P800. The controls are a little hard to get use to, but still fun.
I'd want the name of mine to be Holly...
They do take advantage of the cardbus slot, but yes are 33Mhz. I see no performance difference between an AGP 32MX on a G4 tower 500 G4 vs My PowerBook G3 (upgraded to 550G4) with the card I have been beta testing for villagetronic for two months now.
Still, games, visuals are a lot faster on my cinema display on the left (32MB card commented on here) and my onboard 8MB ATI adapted on the right. Both displays are 17" Apple displays. I CAN, hook up two displays to the card using an ADC splitter or DVi splitter and just use virtual desktop software to use the real estate from both monitors.
Margi also makes a PCMCIA card that works with many displays I beleive their offerings are Matrox based. It's not as high end as this card coming out though.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
BOFH excuse #247:
Due to Federal Budget problems we have been forced to cut back on the number of users able to access the system at one time. (namely none allowed....)
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