Slashdot Mirror
Investigating the RIAA's Billion-Dollar Claims
zrosener writes "I've put together a site with a lot of information on the cases. I created
diagrams and explanations of the file sharing systems these students created
that the RIAA is suing them for - and how they are functionally and
technically very similar to Microsoft's tools built right into windows,
and how they are dissimilar from Napster's." Good detective work.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The artists will never see even the tiniest bit of the money. Check out this link and tell me how much of that money you think the actual artists are going to get: the problem with music by steve albini
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Wow...thats bright.
The magnatism of your power lines is out of wack and now you have totaly lost your connection to the net.
Wish they would fix these silly power lines right so the broadband would give us the 2GB capacity.
1) /. server.
2) Claim inflated losses for each potential viewer lost * theoretical maximum recieved from each one.
3) Sue.
4) Profit!
Don't laugh. It's their real-world business model.
Tuition's high enough these days--there's no need for RIAA to go after these kids' with lasers strapped to their lawyers' heads... I wouldn't mind paying for SACD-quality recordings, if only I could buy them easily and efficiently (read: online, one click at a time).
I'll-be-slashdotted-before-5th-post-department.
I mean really, if you're going to submit your own site, there's no excuse for an instant slashdotting.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
People, why aren't we mirroring sites on other high-profile facilities with no bandwidth caps or problems?
Because that would be a violation of the sites' copyrights, and could get OSDN and Slashdot sued.
Any more brain-busters?
why not establish mirrors before you submit to slashdot, especially if it's a self referral?
must like the slashdotting effect.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
aah crap sorry bout the formatting
another try:
This site contains information on the recent lawsuits filed by the RIAA against 4 college students for contributory and direct copyright infringement seeking damages of up to ninety seven billion eight hundred million dollars.
$97,800,000,000
Defendants
Defendant: Daniel Jonathan Peng
Princeton University, Sophomore
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# Analysis of the Complaint - written by Joseph Barillari
# Wake (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Daniel Peng
Daniel Jonathan Peng maintained and developed an application / website called "wake" that allowed users of the website: http://wake.princeton.edu (cached) to search for files shared on Princeton University's Local Area Network. It appears that Wake was a front end to a SMB file spider that searched and catalouged all "shared" files on computers connected to the Princeton's LAN. SMB, also known as Samba, is a file sharing protocol developed originaly by Microsoft. It is a widely used and established technology for sharing files between computers accross a network. RIAA charges include contributory copyright infringement accusing that Peng "has taken a network created for higher learning and academic pursuits and converted it into an emporium of music piracy where copyright infringement is simplified down to the click of a computer mouse", and of direct copyright infringement for "copying and distributing hundreds of sound recordings over his system without the authorization of the copyright owners". Fred Van Lohmann, Senior Intellectual Property Attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, volunteered to represent Peng in court.
Defendant: Jesse Jordan
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Freshman
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# www.chewplastic.com (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Jesse Jordan
Jesse Jordan maintained and developed a website called "chewplastic" that allowed users of the website: http://ww.chewplastic.com (cached) to search for files shared on Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute's Local Area Network. It appears that chewplastic.com deployed an application called "Phynd", also an SMB file spider, to search and catalouge all "shared" files on computers connected to the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute's LAN. RIAA accuses Jesse Jordan of direct and contributory copyright infringement.
Defendant: Aaron Sherman
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Senior
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# www.flatlan.com (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Aaron Sherman under the direction of Mukkai Krishnamoorthy, Associate Proffessor of Computer Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Aaron Sherman under the direction of Associate Proffessor Mukkai Krishnamoorthy developed a network application called FlatLan. It is also an SMB file spider, designed to search and catalouge all "shared" files on computers connected a Local Area Network and capable of searching this catalouge through a web interface. The software was distributed for free and deployed on a many different school networks including Bryant College, Lehigh University, Michigan Tech, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Rice University, University of Texas, and Western New England College. The RIAA accuses Sherman of direct and contributory copyright infrigement. The complaint also states that Sherman "started a commercial enterprise to further profit from thee acts of infringement". The details to Shermans' "commercial enterprise" are shown a cache www.flatlan.com's "Products" page (cached) where he offers to sell "a complete Flatlan suite with unlimited FlatLan client licenses!". Apparently the RIAA took him up on this offer and through "trade association, have themselves purchased from the Defendant his software for $500".
Defendant: Joseph Nievelt
Michigan Technological University, hell of a coder
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
As with so many other legal issues, it's a question of intent. With student-written file sharing systems, you are intentionally sharing your files with the whole world. With Windows File Sharing, you are unintentionally sharing your files with the whole world.
> Because that would be a violation of the sites'
> copyrights, and could get OSDN and Slashdot sued.
>
>Any more brain-busters?
Exactly. This is why google no longer caches pages...err...never mind.
So if google cache is OK, why would this be any different?
This site contains information on the recent lawsuits filed by the RIAA against 4 college students for contributory and direct copyright infringement seeking damages of up to ninety seven billion eight hundred million dollars.
$97,800,000,000
Defendants
Defendant: Daniel Jonathan Peng
Princeton University, Sophomore
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# Analysis of the Complaint - written by Joseph Barillari
# Wake (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Daniel Peng
Daniel Jonathan Peng maintained and developed an application / website called "wake" that allowed users of the website: http://wake.princeton.edu (cached) to search for files shared on Princeton University's Local Area Network. It appears that Wake was a front end to a SMB file spider that searched and catalouged all "shared" files on computers connected to the Princeton's LAN. SMB, also known as Samba, is a file sharing protocol developed originaly by Microsoft. It is a widely used and established technology for sharing files between computers accross a network. RIAA charges include contributory copyright infringement accusing that Peng "has taken a network created for higher learning and academic pursuits and converted it into an emporium of music piracy where copyright infringement is simplified down to the click of a computer mouse", and of direct copyright infringement for "copying and distributing hundreds of sound recordings over his system without the authorization of the copyright owners". Fred Van Lohmann, Senior Intellectual Property Attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, volunteered to represent Peng in court.
Defendant: Jesse Jordan
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Freshman
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# www.chewplastic.com (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Jesse Jordan
Jesse Jordan maintained and developed a website called "chewplastic" that allowed users of the website: http://ww.chewplastic.com (cached) to search for files shared on Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute's Local Area Network. It appears that chewplastic.com deployed an application called "Phynd", also an SMB file spider, to search and catalouge all "shared" files on computers connected to the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute's LAN. RIAA accuses Jesse Jordan of direct and contributory copyright infringement.
Defendant: Aaron Sherman
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Senior
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# www.flatlan.com (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Aaron Sherman under the direction of Mukkai Krishnamoorthy, Associate Proffessor of Computer Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Aaron Sherman under the direction of Associate Proffessor Mukkai Krishnamoorthy developed a network application called FlatLan. It is also an SMB file spider, designed to search and catalouge all "shared" files on computers connected a Local Area Network and capable of searching this catalouge through a web interface. The software was distributed for free and deployed on a many different school networks including Bryant College, Lehigh University, Michigan Tech, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Rice University, University of Texas, and Western New England College. The RIAA accuses Sherman of direct and contributory copyright infrigement. The complaint also states that Sherman "started a commercial enterprise to further profit from thee acts of infringement". The details to Shermans' "commercial enterprise" are shown a cache www.flatlan.com's "Products" page (cached) where he offers to sell "a complete Flatlan suite with unlimited FlatLan client licenses!". Apparently the RIAA took him up on this offer and through "trade association, have themselves purchased from the Defendant his software for $500".
Defendant: Joseph Nievelt
Michigan Technological University, hell of a coder
Quick Links
# Complaint - hosted by findlaw.com
# www.mtu.flatlan.com (Cached / Mirrored) - created by Joseph Ni
Well, I haven't been able to read your site, as the server of course has been slashdotted, but I gather you have collated a list of similarities between the software in questions, and (legal) software which has already been out for a while.
Given that you made the effort to prepare this work, I suggest that you take it the final step and send it to the lawyers in charge of defending the students against this lawsuit by the RIAA, or if they have none yet, try to get it to their hands.
Oh, one more thing. You might want to send it anonymously; you never know, you might be sued next. (I'm only half-joking).
Pete Wilson, Ex-Gov California claimed a billions for all the Illegal Aliens syphoning off California's wealth before his cronies could get to it. It was tossed, this will be too. However it does tend to make people think twice, while they will win, the RIAA will make them drain their bank accounts for legal fees. Defense funds will form and they too will suffer. The idea is to make everyone in favor of trading suffer somehow. Even if they lose this time the next time there will be fewer willing to donate. The Artists need to understand the the Record companies are not their friends. The make more without the even if they don't have a gold record
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've put together a site with a lot of information on the cases...
:)
Apparently, you haven't yet heard of the Slashdot Effect. Still, with a Slashdot User ID of 518655, I guess you're still a newbie. No offense, of course!
I think not:
SMB!=Samba.
Likening SMB spiders to Windows' search is a pretty big jump, IMO. I can't get to the demonstration of linked near the bottom of the site, though (http://zacker.no-ip.org/slipperyslope). Was there a good explanation there?
Also, is there a legend for all of the icons used in the pictures?
Furthermore, it's not that hard to setup IIS to limit bandwidth or concurrent users so that you don't take the server down. In Apache just install Apache::Throttle and configure as well. Either way, the worst case scenario is that during a spike some users receive a "Try again later", while other users who have already established a connection can keep using the site at a reasonable speed.
Even if you don't have access to your web server, configuring a web application server (such as Tomcat, Cold Fusion, or ASP.NET) to limit connections before it goes into a "low bandwidth" or "static" mode (kind of like CNN did during 9/11). I know a lot of these sites are personal sites, but most seem to be PHP or Perl sites which assumes that a coder of some sorts is involved.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
SMB = Server Message Block, Not Samba.
h tm l
http://www.ossir.org/ftp/supports/96/netbios-3.
I hope the rest of the information in the article was better researched.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
What is this? Logic? Examination of the lawsuit and using factual meterial instead of simply pulling a random number out of the air??? Sue him! He's violating the DMCA is some way which we will figure out later after the lawsuit has been prepared and filed! Sue him!
There are a lot of problems with Albini's article. One is that he lists a fairly good selling band as example, a poor selling band (and there are much much more of them than ones that are in Albini's words "hits") would end up costing their company money (only 10,000 copies sold, still quite a few, and the company is in the hole $700,000), even though the band ends up with their advance and publishing money (they do get publishing money, in Albini's case the song writers get $.07 per song per album sold minus ascap fees, if we assume 10 songs then the writers are getting $150,000). So really the bottom line assuming entire band write all the songs should read $400,000/(number of members in the band). Another thing that Albini's rant quite starkly portrays is that touring looses money, in this case $875.00. Thats right you go on the road (and work very hard) you end up with less money at the end. Thus the idea that the recordings should be free and people should only be paid to perform simply doesn't fly. What Albini was trying to say here is that Big Record Companies (eg Warner, Sony) are a rip off, and Small Artist Run Places (in this case specifically Touch And Go, I think he was pissed about the Butthole Surfers going to Warner) will make the artist more money. Ask Albini what he thinks of Shawn Fanning or the like getting rich on the backs of Slint, Low, Big Black, The Pixies, or even Bush and he will tell you another story.
"So if google cache is OK, why would this be any different?"
a.) Google just provides the link and the info, not the poster's interpretation of it. Not sure if you've noticed, but pretty often the article description is way off from what's posted on the site being linked to.
b.) You have to approach Google to get Indexed. Not the casae with Slashdot. With Slashdot, people run around the web and look for stories.
c.) The point of using Google is to go find the site, cache is intended to be used in case the info's gone or if the server's down. Slashdot, on the other hand, would be causing the server outage. If the target site generates ad-revenue, they're going to have a beef with it, especially if Slashdot's ads appear in the cache. Illegal? No. Sticky issue? Well you don't want to piss off the people hosting the interesting content, right?
Then there's the whole matter of hosting the bandwidth. The reason why Slashdot doesn't get slashdotted is because it's minimal imagery and server load etc. A good chunk of the sites we end up on have lots of graphics etc. Slashdot can either host them and require significantly more bandwidth (more ads as a result?) or not host the images and end up in the trouble mentioned in point 3.
Could it be done? On a technical level yes. Can it be done to everybody's satisfaction? Possibly, but it takes more work than just setting up a mirror server.
I think Slashdot's doing just fine having the users that made it in paste the info.
I thought it said 'investigating the RIAA's billion dollar crimes.'
Karma: Excellent^(-t/Tau), Tau=Wittiness/Trollishness
The tuition price comment was a joke- everyone knows students at Princeton, RPI, etc can afford another few billion added to their debtload
What I'm asking to pay for is a higher quality recording than is available from audio CD or mp3.
The recording industry has high quality masters for practically all recorded songs, and the RIAA has more choices than just (1) Dying from piracy, or (2) turning against its customers.
I'll buy higher quality recordings (yeah, even with DRM) for the same reason you, (or that guy down the street) has an two thousand dollar turntable-- I like the way it sounds.
Hi, not to be too picky, but you've got a factual error about SMB about 11 lines from top. "SMB, also known as Samba, " but SMB = server message block protocol. Samba is an SMB talking application that can use SMB from unix and other systems, but Samba != SMB, like Internet Explorer != HTTP.
AHAHAH i slashdotted myself then took a nap... i was tired! sorry -Zack
Oh. Looks like it was a typo ...
From here --
Only 98 billion dollars? Carry on!(I still wonder if they'll take a check. Or how about PayPal?)
Any good legal team would know that a countersuit is in order in this case. They can sue and recover all of their legal fees straight from the RIAA. Do to the "in the press" nature of the lawsuits, these students can file suit for harrassment, defamation of character, etc. It should be easy to win this case assuming there are no hitches in the initial RIAA claims.
Besides, I bet there are some lawyers who would do this pro bono since it is a high profile case dealing with students who most certainly can't afford it.
and my next study is going to be invapor computing.
This is an experimental study into how to reach the next level of computing called "vapor computing" the idea behind it is to so over stress your sytem that you turn your computer into vapor. Thus reaching the next phase of computing power, vapor computing. Please help me in this by going to my site and constantly hitting refresh. My webserver is only in the liqued phase of computing right now.
Wish they would fix these silly power lines right so the broadband would give us the 2GB capacity.
You think you've got it bad? Hell, my service only puts out 60 Baud and all I seem to get is 010101010101010101010...
The basis used by the RIAA for calculating damages in all these cases is fundamentally absurd. They take the number of copies, multiply by the highest recent retail they can find, and draw a big red circle around the result.
In order to accurately estimate the true damages, a little flashback to microeconomics class is in order.
Recall that for the combination of any given product and any given consumer, there is a price below which the consumer will buy it (sometimes that price will be zero or lower, but there is a price).
There is also a price below which the seller will not sell it.
The space between these two prices is where purchase transactions are viable.
So, in order to calculate the losses, we need two things:
The second of these is naturally much more complicated. Different buyers have different price thresholds. Across a population, the aggregate of these prices can be approximated with a function (I'll spare the math). This function can be estimated by using price elasticity data that sellers accumulate as part of their normal market analysis. Of course, it differs in different demographics so it's important to use a demographic that matches the arena in which the pirated material is distributed.
Once you have these two things, you can calculate the real losses quite simply. Say there were 1000 copies of something that the seller was willing to discount to $20 and had never sold for more than $30. Say further that the buyer curve for the distribution demographic was nice and simple, ranging from $0 to $50, with 80% below $20. Treating everything higher than $30 as $30 (since that's the highest price the product had been available for), you'd get something like $5000 in actual losses (forgive me, my back-of-the-napkin calculus is not good).
Meanwhile, the RIAA would claim that the loss was $30000, 6 times higher than reality.
The difference is explained by copies in the hands of people who would not have otherwise bought the product for a price at which the manufacturer was willing to sell it, and which therefore do not represent a legitimate market.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
thats funny, on my ADSL, i've had pretty much non-stop hits since the floppy enterprise article, and it's never seemed to slow my downstream rate.
/.'d"
and i have have some pictures on my site, as well as in some of the articles mirrored
Maybe he did it for bragging rights.
"Hey man, i got
the ladies love that.
If anybody's interested in checking out the RPI student paper's stance on this mess, check it out here.
Lots of letters to the editor and a few articles.
I'd just like to point out a misnomer in the linked article that "SMB is a file sharing protocol developed originaly by Microsoft". As alluded to in Samba's History, SMB was originally invented by Digital Equipment Corporation.
Hello RIAA, are you tired of beating up on little boys in college yet? I'm not trying to insinuate that you're bullies, just that there's some serious meat out there for you.
NetIQ has had a product called MP3 checker available for years, which does essentially the same thing as Wake, Phynd, and all the others. It even prints out a pretty list for you so that you don't have to run it over and over again.
Like I said, I know you're not just a bunch of effeminate bullies, so it won't phase you at all that NetIQ is a partner of Microsoft. Go sue!
Why should I argue rationally with someone being irrational? I'll just mock them instead.
I just wanted to let all /.ers know that one of the defendents in this case, Jesse Jordan of Rensselaer has set up a furom for discussion of the lawsuit and whatever else. Find it at http://www.chewplastic.com/bb
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
You should let Phish and other bands like them know about that, if they have any free time from counting their money. Touring can be very lucrative if you do it constantly and you are good.
Most bands on major labels end up costing money rather than making it. That's what happens when you spend hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars on every album.
Primus spent five grand on their first album and ten grand on their second; even their third album, which was released on a major label and had a couple of videos, only cost thirty grand (I'm sure the videos cost extra). They didn't need to sell a million records to make money.
Like the fact that Peng's site was lauded in the Princeton newspaper as a great way to get music for free. And like the fact that these guys were making a ton of music available from their own computers.
*Whoops*
Say the name of that site five times fast, in a thick Southern accent.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
they do get publishing money, in Albini's case the song writers get $.07 per song per album sold minus ascap fees, if we assume 10 songs then the writers are getting $150,000
And they may not even get that. To the best of my knowledte, before a songwriter publishes a song, there is no reliable way to check whether or not that song infringes the copyright in another musical work. George Harrison got burned by this.
How do you solve the problem of accidental infringement?
Ask Albini what he thinks of Shawn Fanning or the like getting rich on the backs of Slint, Low, Big Black, The Pixies, or even Bush and he will tell you another story.
President Bush hasn't really done much about copyright. Or is there another Bush that I don't know about?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I suggest to introduce into the legal system the notion that in case the plaintiff loses, he has to pay the defendant exactly the amount he is sueing for.
That would give a natural limit to such amounts.
-Max
What I noticed about the software/services described here is that 1) they could be extremely useful to large organizations (e.g. General Motors) for locating existing resources within the company WAN and 2) they are all to some extent research projects.
I think this is a pretty clear-cut case of the RIAA attempting to hinder technological progress in defence of its business model.
They're not going to win, though. This software is useful for all sorts of things, not just music piracy. It infringes as much as Google does.
This suit is bullying, plain and simple. I just hope the defendants have good lawyers.
And I hope the RIAA gets busted for barratry over this.
Bush - the band
Oh thanks. I had forgotten about Bush.
jackass
What does jackass have to do with Bush or any of the other bands you listed?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I fail to see how RIAA claimed damages could total $90 some billion. In fact, I might venture that a monetary value cannot be assigned to losses because of these reasons:
(note: I know there are alternatives to MP3 but the desire for simplicity in my explanations prevailed)
1. The RIAA would have the burdon of proof that all logged transfers of MP3 files in their calculations were copyright violations and not students within fair use (i.e. students owned the CD and didn't want to spend time ripping).
2. The RIAA would have the burdon of proof that each and every copyright violation (see #1) resulted in a lost sale. Many who download MP3 files never would purchase CDs anyway, whether or not MP3 technology existed. In essence, the RIAA has to prove that the customer in each case would have actually bought a CD, had it not been for the search engine.
3. The RIAA would have to demonstrate that the purpose of the software was for music trading. It seems to me that this "spider" indexed everything. From the description of the software, it doesnt seem to be exclusively for media files. Media files are indexed along with all other content, as the software doesn't know whether an MP3 file is for a garage band posting their stuff or a video file is of someone dumping soap into a fountain to make it bubbly. Same goes for software - People may very well want to check out what the Computer Science department is chugging out.
Hopefully whoever presides over this case will throw it out as frivolous. In my opinion, this is similar to somebody suing "Perfect Kitchen Silverware Company", because someone was murdered with a knife manufactured by the company.
Fair call, both realisticly are parasites. Both are competing for the same thing. One leverages money and connections (sociopolitical) the other uses technology and a corrupt spinoff of the Hacker Ethic. 'Information want's to be free' becomes 'Music wants to be free'. Hogwash. The victims are the Artists. Of the two The Record Companies at least provide backing for a vision. The P2P sharing only robs the robbers (RIAA etc) who will gobble up the profits from a Hit Record and claim it was all used for 'Return on Investment' the costs of putting the record out and losses form failures of others. I remember Amiee Mann (Till Tuesday) on NPR a few weeks ago talking about how Her one hit record still hasn't paid Her a dime.
I was in the Music industry for 10 years before I turned Hacker, it's true. The record companies just eat up all the money. Bands that make money do it from touring. A hit album is just free publicity. Don't expect to see a dime from it. Kim Thayil of Soundgarden once told me that he was making more as a Cook then what he got off their record.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
"This site contains information on the recent lawsuits filed by the RIAA against 4 college students for contributory and direct copyright infringement seeking damages of up to ninety seven billion eight hundred million dollars."
It was much funnier when Dr. Evil said it.