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EFF's Cindy Cohn Talks About Patriot Act II
digidave writes "Techfocus.org has an interview with EFF's Legal Director Cindy Cohn, where she talks about the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II'. She talks about what the act is, how it might infringe on your freedoms, where it does right and how ordinary people can make a difference."
Techfocus recently conducted an interview with Cindy Cohn, Legal Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, focusing on the impending debate and strong possibility of enactment of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II.'
Cindy Cohn has worked intensively on issues relating to online privacy and security, one notable case being her work on the U.S. v. Sklyarov case, which found Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov jailed in the US after speaking on security lapses in Adobe's eBook format. Ultimately cleared of wrongdoing, the programmer and his employer (Elcomsoft) are prime examples of where the EFF and Cohn are making a difference. Other notable work includes Bernstein v. Dept. of Justice, a successful case which tested the legality of encryption exportation - and validated the premise that source code is protected under the First Amendment.
Note: Based on the nature of the interview, we have provided the a reference list for readers, which translates the acronym to the actual name. You can view the list in a smaller pop-up window by clicking here
"Under the current draft of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act (DSEA), the Freedom of Information Act is curtailed, allowing the federal government to restrict more documentation of government activities and actions. What are some examples of situations where having the Freedom of Information Act has helped the public?"
It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing? FOIA creates a default rule of accountability that keeps the otherwise secretive government bureaucracy on its toes. It's impossible to be scientific about it, but I believe the fact that sooner or later a decision made will end up on CBS news, TechFocus or even Slashdot probably prevents more stupid and improper actions than all the regulatory laws and policies put together. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
For specific examples, recently I've heard excerpts from the tapes of Nixon during the Watergate period, which I believe were released after a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. But the best evidence for folks concerned about online issues is the FOIA gallery. David Sobel and his colleagues have done amazing work over the years using FOIA. Just in the past year they've unearthed information about a Transportation Security Administration model for profiling passengers, mistakes in use of both the Carnivore e-mail surveillance system and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the government's purchase of information about people from Choicepoint (.pdf), the private profiling service. And that's just this year.
Expanded search warrant powers
"As currently written, the DSEA would make it possible for investigators to attain a search warrant usable anywhere within the country, if the subject is allegedly involved in computer 'hacking.' Currently this is limited to violent offenses - what computer hacking events have the current restrictions failed to curtail, and what sort of precedent would this set by equating computer hacking with violent crime?"
View legal reference window
This provision continues one of the most egregious problems in the original USAPA -- the fact that it ranges far beyond issues related to terrorism and instead appears to be just a law-enforcement wish list. There has been no indication that computer trespass played any role in the 9/11 attacks, or any other act of international terrorism. Yet both USAPA and DSEA (which I call USAPA II) continue the relentless march to increase the scope of the law, to increase the penalties and to reduce the checks and balances against misuse of the law.
But to answer your question, I'm not aware of any situations in which the requirement that search warrants under the federal computer trespass statute (called the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or CFAA) be obtained in the same way as all other search warrants has frustrated a law enfo
Hate PATRIOT Act one? Just wait for the Sequal, PATRIOT Act II, the RETURN. Seriously though, isn't it congress's job to make laws, not the DOJ?
And if you don't comply with the Patriot Act, we'll intercept your communication with a Patriot Missile!
What Natalie from The Facts of Life has to do with Patriot II
God Fucking Damnit
is it gonna be a 3 part trilogy? or are they going to start doing prequals just to make a bit more money?
Land of The Free.
"If I anger a tech support person at my ISP, that employee can maliciously turn over my personal information to the government and I could very well end up being prevented from getting on an airplane or, worse yet, improperly arrested"
:P
HAH! That will teach people from abusing us poor tech support slaves. Finally. This could put an end to all of the people that call us and scream bloody murder & death threats about us because we explain that printer problems are outside of the ISP's scope of support.
Be nice to us - we could send Motherfuckin' Guido after you!
"How can everyday citizens make a difference on this issue? Who can they contact, and what are their best options for protecting their privacy?"
Of course they can. In fact, they are the only ones who can. It's through pressure from constituents that folks like Sen. Wyden and Sen. Grassley get the message that they need to stand up to the Administration's excessive proposals and that they will have public support if they do. Put the pressure on and keep it on. And while using our activism engine is useful, don't stop there. Go visit your representatives, talk to them about it. And do the same for members of the Administration when you can.
I posted a few days ago about Getting Involved in the Political Process. This is yet another reason to get involved!
Man Gets 70mpg in Homemade Car-Made from a Mainframe Computer
In the Declaration of Independence, it says that the only purpose of a legitimate government is to protect the rights of its people. Therefore, the U.S. government is not being "legitimate" right now. Serioulsly though, the biggest terrorists are the ones trying to take are personal liberties away because of some vague threat, some idea of dissent. "To criticize your country is to give a hearty handshake and pat on the back" said one guy whose name I can't remember, but it sure is true.
One day we are going to wake up, and wish we were living in Singapore. Slowly we are losing all of the freedoms and rights that make great innovations possible. The Dark Ages are coming ... great thinkers and great innovators cannot function in a society of fear.
Bush, the closest thing to fascist we've ever had.
Just remember what it was like 3 years ago: Economy was good, we had jobs, the President was brokering peace between Israel and Palestine, and our biggest worry was that the President had consentual sex with his adult intern. Oh my.
Today: Economy is crashing, > 6% unemployment
rate is common in urban areas across the country, we're in a questionable and bloody war for oil, the same people who bolstered Saddam into power are in control today, Israel and Palestine aren't even on the map, the Bush administration is silencing political critics, and the government wants to investigate your private life to make sure you are not a terrorist, headed by Big Brother himself.
So much has been lost in just 3 years.
Who will monitor the monitors?
Who will liberate the liberators?
Great! I've been wondering what happened to her ever since she stopped playing Natalie on The Facts of Life...
Oh... CINDY Cohn. Well, forget it.
Patriotism is an act that people take in loyalty to their government. For example, joining the National Guard is a patriotic act. Dictionary.com gives the definition for patriotism as:
Patriotism is an attitude of the individual to the country. Patriotism does not come from the government to the people.
The fact that some many things are coming out of the current administration with the label "patriot" is extremely disconcerting. The consistent redefinition of terms is the hallmark of dictatorship.
Regardless of the merits of the act, the fact that it is mislabeled is cause for concern.
The same is true with the mislabeling of 9/11 as "Patriot Day". The day had nothing to do with American patriotism. The people who died in the terrorist bombing were not acting patriotically. They were being acted on.
Just looking at the definition...the closest thing we have to patriotism on 9/11 is that the fanatics who took over the airplanes held the belief that they were killing Americans for their country and for Islam. Ignoring our own feelings and looking at the words we see that the terrorists killing Americans is closer to the true definition of the word "patriot" than the non action of the victims.
Misusing terms is always a grave cause for concern.
I am not dissing true patriotism. We owe our freedom to people who took the patriotic step to defend freedom. In fact, I would say the misusing of the term is an affront to the true patriot. It dillutes the sacrafices made by American patriots.
I can't help but begin this post with a cynical remark (sorry, but I've had a bad week...) You don't need masses for a job that one man can do... Lee Harvey Oswald thought he was a patriot, too. And the man who murdered Pim Fortyn (a right-wing populist politician from Netherlands; I don't support that kind of politicians, by the way) said he did it for the sake of the country...
Now, what I really wanted to say was, that Josef Goebbels would be proud of the Bush administration's rhetorics. I mean, calling a law that just invites people to be unpatriotic "The Patriot Act"... Another thing that's just impressive was how in the news today, someone from the Pentagon or US government talked about how the Iraqis may have destroyed all their weapons of mass destruction before the war had begun, and he made it sound as if it had been something unspeakable and unheard of ("how dare they?" was the message)...
Please think about it a bit before modding me down. Then my karma at least served some purpose.
Hell is not other people; it is yourself. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Not only that, see:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
amendment 14, section i. It's fairly exact if you ask me. IANAL.
Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
What will become of the USA if we allow the Patriot Act to continue suppressing our freedoms? Think "China" or "Chinese society". The Chinese in Singapore regularly ban "The Economist", a reputable journal. The Chinese will throw you into prison for holding a peaceful demonstration against the government.
Note that the Patriot Act curtails the Freedom of Information Act. What happens when government prevents its own citizens from knowing the activities of the government? Think "Chinese government". The Chinese in Beijing covered up the lethal illness called "Sudden Accute Respiratory Syndrome", and this coverup engendered the proliferation of the SARS epidemic to all corners of the globe. Read "China and SARS". Indeed, the majority of Chinese believe that "maintaining social order [is] more important than democracy". This "maintaining social order" means "restricting freedom of speech, press, and assembly". Read "Poll: Hong Kong residents optimistic".
Both Singapore and the USA are modern societies in terms of technology. Yet, most people prefer to live in the USA, not Singapore, because of the openness and freedom in American society. What distinguishes us Americans from the Chinese is our willingness to support freedom of thought and speech and to support openness in our own government. Otherwise, the USA will degenerate into a nation like Singapore or, worse, China.
The cause part of politics is the way it defines/describes/classifies things so generally. The effect is that people going insane picks out little things in the laws that make them look like the worst thing to happen since the invention of fire and the use of it burning people.
Read more here.
If you live in the US, please think about how your government tramples on every idea of freedom, peace and democracy and then adds insult to injury by trying to convince you that, indeed you enjoy the freedom to say and do whatever you want.
A democratic regime would never have its president utter the words "with us or against us".
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
And even if she ain't married already, you better be the child of at least a mythical god to even try with her.
Now, 20 years later, I probably would not have done the same were I in those shoes again. Such acts like the Patriot Act, detainings of people -- many times US Citizens themselves -- on the basis of race, under no basis for charge, new onerous immigration restrictions that make even getting a tourist visa about as easy as winning the lottery if one is unlucky enough to be from a country that's not western European, and other such hypocritical erosions of the consitution have turned me off.
Japan is not perfect, mind you. Its people still have a air of racial superiority about them left from their imperialist warmongering days, and discrimination in employment and all aspects of society is too often blatant for me and other people with too dark of a skin color. But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing. And I feel free to go about my work without fear that the police may be scrutinizing my every move, trying to "prove" my association with terrorist groups.
In short, I fear that Bush and Rumsfeld have done irreparable damage to the United States' image as a bastion of democracy and freedom in the world. Prior to the crackdowns on people in the US under the veil of 9/11, the erosion of the Consitution, and the invasion of Iraq, the United States held both the military power and the moral authority to enforce its opinions, a right it earned through decades of generally magnanimous acts in support of these causes around the world. Today, all this work has been laid to waste because of the shortsighted policies of George Bush and his advisors. The world views the United States, rightly so in my opinion, as hypocrites. It will take a long time (and most likely a new administration) to change that view for the better.
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
It has nothing to do with patriotism. It just makes it much easier for LEA's to get around Constitutional limitations on things like searches, wire taps, midnight disappeances and other nasty things that kept the US from being a police state.
*RANT*
It's pretty simple, actually. All this talk of writting your congressmen, protests -- it's all worthless folks.
What WILL make a diffrence is this:
1) Next chance you get, vote all of these clowns out of office. And for those you can't vote out of office since they are appointed (Ashcroft), vote against those that appointed them.
2) Stop spending money! Since politicions that make and pass laws like these are bought and paid for by corporations for the corporations interests, the best way to nip it in the bud is to stop feeding the machine. Since this war has started, I haven't driven my car. Why? Because I haven't bought any GODAMN GAS.
Flame on.
"The Wright brothers were the first to fly with a heavier-than-air machine, but boy did they have a lousy plane"
The Patriot Act expires in 2005.
Chill out.
My god.
Not if Orrin Hatch gets his way. This head of the Senate Judiciary committee wants to make the Patriot Act permanent. Besides, even if it were temporary, it is still in violation of the Constitution. Don't let the concept of temporary abrogation of your rights fool you. This is a big deal.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Ok, that's all fine and well, and I support your ideas until...
Where do you buy your food? Who raises the meat and vegetables that you eat? How much of that money goes right into the machine (corporations and poltical corporations).
Hell, for that matter, do you pay for electricity and an ISP? Thank you--your local politican thanks you for the 'donation' (ie-taxes)
at times now and present i've been
asked to kite my flag colors
the simple act of doing such, for me
creates pain.
a time ago i learned the coolness
of flags
many seas lator
i like to make flags
goodish flags, like, strongish
now i like to work a lot, serious hard corps
as in working for me is a Real And Present Danger
for some things, such that
such that trying to paint a simple water coooloure
makes megga double dollar factors relative to slacck
look like a joke, now i type this noise with reason
reason is sea krit
however reason is such, that is my reason, such
that neyt to no rhyme eor every
trying to proctect chill de ren and wo mo en
is work cry now skill level
any way do not talk to me in real time any time soon
please,, that is that is, as,,for me even trying to only listen
with my ears is pain, if you ever ask me to
look with my fingers, weeel yeah that is a game
of chess i can work on. but i do in FACT put the
paawwws in the Back row
so send me your best ada code
xie xie
thank you
danka
bitter she it me never,
Sable jon, a nick name i got from a comic book
Hatch officially retracted his move to enshrine the Pat-riot act. But you can bet that fucker is scheming for another chance at it.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
No, communism in theory is faulty. Marx misunderstood such basic economic concepts as profit maximization, value, and growth. It was a bad theory and therefore it failed. Good theories are sucessful at explaining and predicting. Communism was unable to do this and cannot be considered good theory.
I donated another $20 today. There was a great victory in the RIAA vs. Streamcast and Grokster. Legal fights like this cost money. Please donate whatever you can to the EFF! They are the only thing standing between us and ultra-greedy mega-corps!
Apparently Pim Fortuyn's politics were widely mischaracterized in most media after his asassination. You may find there was a lot more to like about the guy than most people outside of the Netherlends was led to believe.
Meanwhile, this whole WMD was so clearly a pretense to start with that I can't help but laugh as the administration squirms. But as a friend of mine said recently, we will find WMD in Iraq - even if we have to fly them in ourselves. Makes you wonder why they even bother to let it drag out for so long. Maybe there is still a modicum of honor in the current administration (still haven't finished reprogramming Powell, perhaps) that they can't quite get the gumption up to start planting the evidence. Either that or things are still too disorganized over there to pull it off without getting caught in the act.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Maybe I'm blind... but, if this is who you are talking about:
c oh n.jpg
http://techfocus.org/files/interviews/eff/cohn/
you have to lay of the drugs son. Try getting out more.
Personally, I like this one:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Theodore Roosevelt
To the knee-jerk dumbasses: He's a Republican, not a 'crat.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Which is exactly why the Second Amendment is critical. It allows We The People to enforce the First Amendment, and the rest as well.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing?
Right on sir. All too often we look at government in the wrong direction. The constitution does not "grant us" anything, it is used to restrict the governments domain. Similarly, the FOIA does grant the citizen anything, rather, it stifles the governments ability to engage in clandestine affairs.
This is what makes the patriot act V1.0 so insidious, is that it allows the government to move in a clandestine fashion, and in fact violates the Fourth ammendment. The FOIA is beautiful in it's keeping with the ideals of the founding fathers. It limits the governments ability to act without pretense, clandestinely.
It would only make sense that Patriot Act V2.0 would get rid of such a hindrance to the government.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
Send a Free FAX in 2 Clicks!e .cfm?ID =11904&c=206
2
Don't let this go on!!!
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFre
DON"T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU (c/p);
Steganography and honeypot expert Niels Provos may risk four years in prison by completing his Ph.D.
By Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus Apr 14 2003 12:00AM
A University of Michigan graduate student noted for his research into steganography and honeypots -- techniques for concealing messages and detecting hackers, respectively -- says he's been forced to move his research papers and software offshore and prohibit U.S. residents from accessing it, in response to a controversial new state law that makes it a felony to possess software capable of concealing the existence or source of any electronic communication.
"Concealing the existence of communication is my dissertation, and concealing the source of communication takes place in honey nets," says Niels Provos. "So I decided to be proactive about it and move it to another location, and for now just deny anybody from the states to download any of my software."
At issue are the so-called "Super-DMCA" bills under consideration in seven states, which have already become law in six others. Similar in some ways to the federal Digital Millennium Copyright Act -- which made it a crime to distribute software that cracks copy protection schemes -- the state measures appear to target those who would steal pay-per-view cable television shows or defraud broadband providers. Though the bills vary in language and scope, they are patterned after model legislation pushed by the Motion Picture Association of America along with the Broadband and Internet Security Taskforce, the latter a consortium of cable companies and premium channels.
The Super DMCA began quietly passing state legislatures two years ago, but did not come to public attention until last month, when the broad language in some versions of the bill immediately sparked anger from technologists and public interest groups.
http://www.securityfocus.com/printable/news/391
------------------------
C'MON--- fight it!! Can you say POLICED STATE?? I can't and WON'T!!!!
Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country!!
Let's fight this lady's and gentlemen!
If there's no regime change in November 2004, I'm going to put my plans in action for leaving the country. There are better places to live, and if you're young enough and skilled/educated, you can jump through their immigration hoops and get a passport. You know, like what a whole lot of Germans did in the 30s.
IAAL
I'm not flaming you, but I do have a suggestion or two.
First, voting is the *last* thing (literally) you should do to make changes in your political leadership. Voting is the final judgement, but getting involved in the political process is the first thing we should be doing.
I'm not talking about protests or sit-ins or organized campaigns. I'm talking about getting personally involved the EASY way. Call your state, Congressional and Senate reps and make an appointment to talk about 1 issue (this isn't an all-you-can-eat buffet) with the Rep's staffer. Follow up with a brief thank you note and a reminder of what was discussed. Follow up every two weeks with a phone call, and follow up with scheduled meetings as you feel is needed. Rinse and repeat, make it a habit like checking your e-mail.
This isn't rocket science. The methods, tools and customs of political involvement are really old. If you have the intelligence to filter Slashdot comments, you're smart enough to make a political difference.
The only variable here is your commitment to follow through. The EFF can't do it alone.
Peace,
Chuck
...the government needs to know what I buy, what medicine I'm on, who I talk to, who I'm fucking... but not whether or not I own weapons in my home? How does that work, exactly?
My good looks paid for that pool, and my talent filled it with water.
> To the knee-jerk dumbasses: He's a Republican, not a
> 'crat.
Yeah, but how sad is it that you guys have to go all the way back to Roosevelt in order to find an example of a decent human being amid your ranks?
The GOP may have BEEN the "party of Lincoln", and of Teddy Roosevelt as well. But that was over a century ago. In RECENT history, you are the party of the likes of Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, David Duke, Jerry Fallwell, the Bushes, Ashcroft, Cheney, Kenneth Lay, Orrin Hatch, and the rest of their accomplices.
Compared to the offences of ANY of the above, getting a blowjob in the office is praticaly worthy of sainthood.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
"Government isn't the solution to our problems, government IS the problem"
:)
- Reagan.
Now I know he didn't exactly live up to that promise, but you've got to admit, it sounds good
Actually I'd agree, she's hot.
(And you'd better have divine credentials to boot.)
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
http://www.infowars.com
Incorporate in bermuta, why pay taxes to a system that creates such restrictive laws in your choosen career. Get angry that 189000 underpayed H1B vias workes have been deflating your wages for years. The goverment has been treating high tech workers poorly for years, wake up.
> but you've got to admit, it sounds good :)
Yeah, but so do:
"Read my lips: no new taxes!"
and
"I am not a crook."
Both of which make MUCH funnier sound bytes in everything from Hot Shots to Futurama...
(Let's face it... for all his faults, Nixon's head makes a much better comeback, when he is fitted to a robot body and wins the 3000 presidential election, than Reagan ever could have.)
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
That was nifty.. they faaaaaaaaaaade from one color to another... that's neato.
i wonder if this kind of legislation is going to help the government turn our country into enough of an "effective" police state to have a very large impact on the war on drugs. surely the government is growing tired of the inneffectivity of its current efforts. but maybe they just think they need a little bit more power to pull it off?
and here i was hoping they might choose to go the other way, and destroy the black market by giving us back some of our personal freedoms.
please remember that this is nothing more than propagandist speculation. disregard accordingly.
It starts off "We the People..."
*submits blood sample to post
*submits semen sample to post
*submits hair folicles to post
*submits retnal scan to post
*submits facial scan to post
*submits fingerprints to post
*adjusts listening device in dental filling
*salutes Das Fuhrer Ashcroft
Dutifully recites new Pledge of Allegiance:
"In order to protect your safety and liberty we must make you unsafe from your own government and remove as much of your freedom as we see fit. But this does not mean the terrorists and evil-doers have won. SIG HEIL!"
Mod it down, but you need to ask yourself: Do you or have you ever been affiliated with the Communist party?
-1 Overrated (Too many big words for me to comprehend)
"We support the ACLU. We support Amnesty International."
Who is we kimo sabe? The republicans have never supported the ACLU or Amnesty international. In fact they insult people by saying that they are "card carrying members of the aclu".
The republicans support the NRA but they never have and never will support either of the organizations you list.
War is necrophilia.
Have you even been to Singapore? I don't recall the Economist being banned. Yes, porn mags are banned.
"The Chinese in Singapore" : Singapore is a multi-racial society, not a province of China.
"Both Singapore and the USA are modern societies in terms of technology". Yup, and guess which one has a LAW called the DMCA?
Moderators, please stop modding such FUD up.
Be kind. There are too many mean people out there already.
Examples include the periodic banning of "The Economst", arresting people holding a peaceful demonstration against the government, encouraging eugenics (i. e. breeding "smart" people), etc. The former prime minister, Lee Quan Yew, had implemented a policy of eugenics. These and other shocking examples of civil-rights/human-rights violations are described at "Singaporean-statistics web page" by Freedom House. Singapore has a law called the Internal Security Act. It is the Chinese version of the Patriot Act and is a clear violation of civil liberties. Further, most Chinese support the Singaporean laws. They even support the laws that banned or restricted "Time Magazine", "Far Eastern Economic Review", and "The Economist".
Singapore is an example of what the Chinese have done. It is also an example of what the United States must never become.
We Americans must protest the Patriot Act and its variants. We must support civil liberties and human rights. Otherwise, our society will degenerate into a place like Singapore or, worse, China.
Whoever came up with "America, land of the Free" probably didn't think it was sarcastic. It's pretty sad when you have to look to Russia and China as beacons of liberty. Oh, they've got their own problems, but if you graph trends in freedom in the US, Russia, and China, it's not a pretty picture. The so-called evil communists are more free now than the've been in 200 years, while we losers in the US are far *less* free than we've been in... well, ever.
Cheers
-b
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
Apparently Pim Fortuyn's politics were widely mischaracterized [curry.com] in most media after his asassination. You may find there was a lot more to like about the guy than most people outside of the Netherlends was led to believe.
My view of Fortuyn.
Fortuyn was absolutely not a racist or a fascist. Comparing him to Le Pen or so (extreme right wing in France) is stupid. He pointed out there were problems with integration of foreigners in the Netherlands. Well, duh.
But he was a populist. He had great charisma, was a great public speaker, and continuously made the current politicians look ridiculous. He also had a great talent for pointing out problems. The problem was that his "solutions" were extremely vague, naive, brutal and unlikely to work. But what does that matter, the man looked good on tv!... He went from nowhere to a quarter of the poll votes in no time.
Some left wing nut panicked and shot him. This was easy, bodyguards were unknown in Dutch politics, we had a PM that came to work on his bicycle. It's very sad. Love him or hate him, the Fortuyn show was cool to watch.
And there's no way he could have made it as a US politician, btw. He was so blatantly homosexual... there was a tv interview in which he intimated that his boyfriend's sperm tasted differently depending on what he ate the evening before. The fact that everybody considered this obviously irrelevant to politics, and no politician tried to attack his personal life is an important reason why I still love this country.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
Unless the media dubbed what he was saying (I listened to him speak on multiple tv programs, in Dutch) the misconceptions are not as big as the article you posted wants us to believe. He was demonized, I agree, but with reason IMO.
The quotes in the article are greatly toned down, his original remarks were among others that 'Islam is a backward religion', while he might disagree with the way women are treated in some Islamic countries (not all), as do I, calling it a backward religion is basically wrong. But then rightwing populists are usually good at blaming some minorities for everything that has gone wrong , looking for a scapegoat (for hitler it was the jews, these days 'north africans' are the cause of everyone's problems).
While I do agree with some points of the article namely that the media is a very dangerously biased thing which is abused by people with their own agendas as can easily be seen by watching the difference in warreporting by CNN (so very proamerican, not really showing the other side, or when showing something less positive for the 'coalition' they always have a speaker to place a positive spin on it) as opposed to BBC (less so, surprisingly, they are afterall government owned). This article suffers from the same problems, it is not objective either, it is the total opposite of what some people said about Fortuyn. The truth about him lies somewhere in the middle.
"Either that or things are still too disorganized over there to pull it off without getting caught in the act."
if you remember the fake memos from Niger saying that Iraq was trying to aquire uranium:
http://middleeastinfo.org/article2226.html
Even the CIA and state dept distanced themselves from that one, pointing straight at the Whitehouse.
I don't know who I am quoting, but someone defined patriotism slightly different:
patriotism:
A social disease that puts real estate over moral values.
- byns
Sadly as much as a despise our "elected" president the economy isn't truly his fault, it was sliding before he took office and is now simply taking the blame for that.
Really?
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
-- Herbert Spencer
Patriot II: Reloaded
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
What a bunch of lying thugs trying to protect their interest by locking everyone down, stripping away our constitutional rights! It is obvious to us of us with a brain that this is all about maintaining the power to extract dollars from the public and turn them over to ceo's of corporations. As long as it's about the dollar, governments can divide and conquer and control you, if we choose to move away from the dollar, then they can no longer control you.
American Currency is particularly vulnerable, since it is not based on a gold standard; the only reason it's worth what it's worth, is investors mindshare of investing in tresury bonds, once that is gone, freedom is nigh.
...who was on "Facts of Life?"
Natalie Green, I think.
No, wait, that was Mindy Cohn
Forget I said anything.
"Defenestration" is to throw out of a window; what's a word for throwing 'Windows' out of something?
The Patriot Act. (Satire)
--This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
Tell that to all the folks who got pissed at the Dixie Chicks for their comments about Bush and the War...
a Patriot! "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Maybe I missed this one but I'm surprised noone has posted it yet. Our founding fathers had a fairly dim view of a central government's ability to use its power properly.
First of all, Taiwan is also populated by Chinese, and they have grown out of an opressive military regime into a fairly well functioning democracy. You should watch your potentially racist rhetoric there. It sounds like you are saying that Chinese people are naturally against the idea of freedom. "Westerners" lived under opressive monarchical and post-monarchical systems for a long time, and it was a Westerner who created "Fascism."
Second, anyone who decides to make blanket statements about Republicans (such as "no Republican is a member of the ACLU") as a whole is as useless as those say things about "the Democrats." If you just vote for one party because you can't concieve of the other party having anything useful to add, it might mean you only have one good party, more likely it means you are closed-minded. People who believe and vote the party line without looking at the issues are harmful to the essential concept of Democracy.
If you make a deent living in Brazil, you need to hire private security to watch over your family. This is because it is very common for groups (we might call them gangs here in the US) to kidnap family members of well-to-do people and ransom them back. They (the criminals) view it as a Robin Hood/social welfare thing. And the police are powerless to stop it.
Wow, that sounds great. That's real freedom, the freedom to have to pay for the return of your family members over and over.
Although there certainly can be better countries to be in than the US, you don't seem to actually know what they might be. I highly recommend you do some research (perhaps "try before you buy") on some of these other countries before you go off to seek your fortune there.
While it's true that people need to be realitively sure about an environment before laying down their cash, it's equally true that "It's the consumer stupid", meaning that if a consumer feels like he's living in 1984 in 2003, he'll just stop his purchasing behavior, resort to community networking to trade with the remaining, if any, small farmers.
I say the Property Right's control freaks{british and jewish interest} should be booted out of office and change america back into the way the Indians lived.
It's quite interesting China was covering this up, what scares the hell out of the average person is the fact that the recently passed legislation allows for the usa to legally cover up such an incident and based on past coverup behavior, this world in the presence of nice biological weapons, makes one wonder if the usa or any other government should be legally allowed to exist.
The American flag has 13 stripes, one for each of the original colonies. What conspiracy has led Slashdot to have a 12-striped flag as a story icon?
One of the problems with Chinese thinking is that the Chinese consider Americans or, in general, Westerners to be only "Whites" or "Blacks". The Chinese do not consider, say, Vietnamese to be Americans. So, to the Chinese, praising Americans means praising only "Whites" or "Blacks". The Chinese way of thinking is racist. This observation is another reason why Westerners are radically different from non-Westerners like the Chinese. For the record, when we Americans praise Western society, we are praising all the ethnic groups in Western society. Let's stop thinking and acting like the Chinese, okay? This matter is not an issue of race but is an issue of culture.
The critic further writes, " First of all, Taiwan is also populated by Chinese, and they have grown out of an opressive military regime into a fairly well functioning democracy ".
Let's consider the following.
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Do we really want the USA to become like Taiwan, the Chinese "democracy"? Thanks, but no thanks.The constitution of the Chinese living in Taiwan supports the integration of both Tibet and Mongolia into mainland China. While Tibetans suffer and die at the hands of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the Chinese in Taiwan support integrating Tibet into "One China".
The Chinese son of the chairman of a powerful conglomerate in Taiwan has joined with the son of Jiang Zemin, the butcher of Tibet, to build an advanced silicon-wafer factory in Shanghai. (reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture")
Senior Chinese military officials retired from the Taiwanese military have gone to mainland China and given military secrets about the American F-16 fighter jet to the Beijing government. (reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture")
The Chinese from "poor, little, scared" Taiwan have invested more than $50 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. How did this phenomenon happen? Immediately, after the Tienanman Square incident back in June 4, 1989, the American government and businesses curtailed investments in mainland China. The Taiwanese (and the other Chinese in Hong Kong) seized this window of opportunity and accelerated investments into mainland China. The rate of investments from Taiwan into China has skyrocketed to the present levels; investments continue to grow at double-digit rates.
In 1999, the "Wall Street Journal" reported that of all the Chinese arrested and convicted of stealing American military technology to give to Beijing, the majority of these Chinese came from Taiwan. Please read "Crypto Smuggle Scheme Busted" for an example of Chinese (from Taiwan) who were recently arrested for attempting to smuggle American military technology to mainland China.
Hatch counters that "much of the public is misinformed" about TIA. "It would be a shame to prevent the mere research into this potentially valuable area of technology, which may aid in defending our homeland, out of fear that someday the technology could potentially be misused,"
The mere fact that this technology is considered to be researched and possible deployed is pure treason and adbandonment of every priciple our constitution and Bill of Rights stands for! What a freakin joker this Hatch fellow is.
Now I have it on my hard drive along with my other 62,000 pictures of babes...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Wow, the parent post is one of the best things I've ever read here on Slashdot-- thoughtful, rational, clear-headed, refreshing-- and I thank you for posting it.
Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
You forget the size of the country. The country is around, roughly, the size of one of our states.
How easy would it be for foreigners to find weapons of mass destruction in, say, Illinois, if the country wanted to hide them? That's a lot of space to search.
Keep in mind that saddam had plenty of time and reason to hide them, and no requirement that they be quickly readied for employment. In fact, he would have had every reason to stock them with the idea that they wouldn't be needed until such a time that he had a critical mass of them. (no pun intended.)
As do
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!"
and
"I took the initiative in creating the Internet"
Politicians lie, its what they do.
Oh, and Al Gore did not claim to invent the internet. You who say otherwise are just dittoheads taking a poorly-worded statement out of context. So FOAD.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
nice flame pal.
But seriously, your link to the Gore quote includes word for word exactly what I said, doesn't it? Yeah, egg on my face... huh?
Bush is evil as hell, but so was Clinton. Don't pretend that the umpteen wars he got us involved in were any more legitimate than the Bush ones. Granted, they were smaller, but are the thousands of people he killed any less dead?