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Unix-Haters Handbook Available Online

prostoalex writes "The Unix-Haters Handbook, publication year 1994, is now available online for free as a single PDF file. Apparently some suburban Seattle company has agreed to host this 3.5MB file on its servers. The anti-foreword is written by no other but Dennis Ritchie, who proclaims: 'Here is my metaphor: your book is a pudding stuffed with apposite observations, many well-conceived. Like excrement, it contains enough undigested nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some. But it is not a tasty pie: it reeks too much of contempt and of envy.'" This is what should happen to more out-of-print books.

99 of 634 comments (clear)

  1. Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by stefanlasiewski · · Score: 5, Funny

    Windows Hater Book, Entry 1.

    A "32-bit multi-threaded Operating System" which freezes for 30 seconds while Adobe Reader 5.0 starts up and downloads a 3.5 MB pdf .

    I guess it is multi-threaded. I mean, I could wiggle the hourglass.

    --
    "Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
    1. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      heh-heh! the gui IS the kernel. the most funny part I read about this was a description of microsoft trying to make a server 2k3 command-line version. "but then you won't be able to use the printing system b/c you need to use all the device drawing stuff ... oh well, we'll keep on trying" . these guys never seem to learn now, do they :-D

    2. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps, but Mozilla is not a "32-bit multithreaded operating system." If it runs in one called "Windows XP" it acts the same as a "Web Browser" called "Internet Explorer," because its using the same program to render the "pdf file," "Acrobat Reader."

    3. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by Narcissus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hope you mean in a non-Windows OS, because that's what the parent was referring to: the operating system, not the browser.

      And even if you mean within Windows, then you'd expect it to hang, too, as it's the operating system that has the problem, not the application.

      You're confusing two different things: an application may hang, that's just dodgy code in the application somewhere (which is what you're referring to) but there is no reason for an operating system to hang. That's dodgy code in the OS, and that would affect all applications equally.

    4. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by Zeinfeld · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Hey guys, you are missing something important, when we were running the unix-haters list at the AI lab WindowsNT did not exist, Windows 3.1 was a toy O/S that did not even pretend to be a serious contender.

      Most of the people who were on the haters list were actually VMS and Multics users, or like me they had used so many different O/S and written bits of them that they were in a position to make comparisons.

      UNIX does come off very baddly compared to the other O/S of its era. The command line interpreter is garbage, the documentation abysmal and as for security - Denis Richie effectively invented the buffer overun bug. C was the first computer language that had dynamic memory allocation without dynamic range checking. Today we are unlearning that mistake with Java and C# which both have memory management and memory bounds checking.

      UNIX is unfortunately not the greatest creation of computer science. The fact that so many youngsters look at the pile of offal uncritically is somewhat disappointing.

      However take a read through the security chapter and then ask yourself whether any of the major security flaws in the UNIX architecture was an impediment to its success? If the answer is no then don't bet on the 'security issue' keeping Windows out of the data center for long. That did not work to keep UNIx replacing real O/S like VMS.

      Security is pretty much like the 'character' issue in elections. The candidate that raised the 'character' issue in the last campaign was the recovering alcoholic with an undeclared criminal conviction for DUI, who had been a director of a company with Enron style accounting, had sold shares and illegally failed to report the sales to the SEC - twice, who had dodged the draft by getting his father to pull strings to parachute him into a draft-safe spot in the Texas national guard and then went AWOL for over a year.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    5. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by the+gnat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I once asked an older coworker and Solaris guru what happened with the Unix-haters list. He told me that it stopped being quite so funny once Windows NT came along.

      I'm certainly not blind to the faults of Unix- there have been many, many failed technologies that were more advanced than the crap we have to work with now. I think the reason so many people profess their love for Unix now is that the remaining alternative is pretty godawful, and many of us have had limited opportunity to work with anything better. You can pine for VMS all you want, but whatever made it such a badass operating system seems to have been discarded in the making of NT.

      Perhaps in twenty years we'll be mocking old MS-bashing Slashdot posts as we attempt to deal with crashing PalmOS Metaverse servers and brag about how our Windows 2020 boxes are *real* computers.

    6. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by Art+Tatum · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Perhaps in twenty years we'll be mocking old MS-bashing Slashdot posts as we attempt to deal with crashing PalmOS Metaverse servers and brag about how our Windows 2020 boxes are *real* computers.

      I doubt it. The reason so many people prefer Linux (or other UNIXes) to Windows is the UNIX design philosophies, the rich history, and the community spirit. Bill Gates has explicitly stated his disdain for all three.

    7. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by malfunct · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the reason so many people like linux is that they can't afford and they can't affect the alternatives. Thats the one truely innovative thing (not that I'm convinced I like it) about linux, the license.

      --

      "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

    8. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by malfunct · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thats because the OS itself is barely more than an abstraction layer on the hardware. Unix was built as hundreds of command files that could pipe input and output between themselves to do complex jobs with small, "correct" pieces.

      --

      "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

    9. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by voodoo1man · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "The reason so many people prefer Linux (or other UNIXes) to Windows is the UNIX design philosophies, the rich history, and the community spirit."
      Maybe you should look beyond your closest social circle to see why "so many" people prefer Unix to Windows. Many (like me) are forced into it because Windows doesn't work, and Unix is the only other thing that comes close to working (and then it's only two and a half flavors that do). How many other operating systems are there that feature decent network support, a graphical interface, and a decade's worth of drivers for pc hardware? Even Macs ship with essentially NeXTSTEP nowadays.

      As far as design philosophies go, read The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD UNIX Operating System. I really wish I had the Unix Haters barf bag when I did. I don't know anyone who prefers technical products on the base of their "rich history." Maybe it's because I live in Calgary, but the Unix "community spirit" is certainly not something I want to identify myself with too closely.

      --

      In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.

    10. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by nathanh · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Thats the one truely innovative thing (not that I'm convinced I like it) about linux, the license.

      I couldn't care less for "innovative" features. I'd just be happy with something that works. This whole freaking "innovation" hoobah was invented by the lawyers in the Microsoft antitrust case and as far as I'm concerned it can stay there.

    11. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by chrismaeda · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A lot of us were actually lispm hackers by then, and unix-haters was a reaction to the AI Lab and LCS decommissioning the lispm's in favor of Suns. The unix-haters list used to be twenex-haters back before hating TOPS-20 became an irrelevant exercise. I also remember back in the day when DWeise posted a note saying that we would all be programming in Windows in 10 years, which nobody believed at the time, because he was talking about Windows 3.0 with "cooperative multitasking..."

      I also helped write part of the book and then went on to be an OS hacker with the CMU Mach project.

    12. Re:Windows Hater Book, Entry 1 by fferreres · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can't afford? The largest part of the microsoft market share is pirated copies of MS Whatever. They don't have to afford it.

      I'd say mostly anybody using Windows ever though of moving to Linux because of the cheap factor. ALL of the moves i've seen fall in unrelated categories:
      - Geek / coolness factor
      - Institutional, tired of MS
      - Wanted to tried / liked it
      - Needed stability

      Nobody learns Linux because of the chepo factor, I can understand some companies liking the cheap factor, but those companies hire guys that do like unixes, the boss in never ever going to learn unix, they will just use gnome and openoffice (or crossover).

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
  2. Nothing to do with Microsoft... by cperciva · · Score: 4, Informative

    This might be on Microsoft's servers, but it's in Daniel Weise's private webspace (he being one of the three authors). No, this is not an unsubtle attempt at pro-windows propaganda.

    1. Re:Nothing to do with Microsoft... by anotherone · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Maybe he works with windows because he doesn't like Unix?

      No, that's insane, it must be a conspiracy.

      --
      Username taken, please choose another one.
    2. Re:Nothing to do with Microsoft... by DarthWiggle · · Score: 5, Funny

      I parsed the negatives and came up with "this is a subtle attempt at pro-windows propaganda."

      I was about to type that I parsed the negatives and found Jesus, but I thought I'd get modded troll.

      (Pardon me, I'm in the middle of exams, so I'm not entirely in charge of myself.)

  3. Announced on ``The Online Books Page'' a while ago by WillAdams · · Score: 5, Informative

    (I know, 'cause I sent in the note which it listed there ;)

    That's, http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/ for those who aren't familiar with this wonderful site.

    It lists a number of other out-of-print books which're of interest to geeks (and some which are in print such as the .tex source (which one may not process save under specific circumstances) for _The TeXBook_ and _The METAFONT Book_ by Dr. Donald E. Knuth). Books of interest include:

    _Unix Text Processing_
    Norman Walsh's _Making TeX Work_ (which is on Sourceforge)
    Eckel's book on programming Java
    and for those with kids, _The Great Logo Adventure_

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  4. Moz does the same thing... by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Only faster! Now that's Hyper-threading!

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
    1. Re:Moz does the same thing... by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

      And what's the percentage of IE users out there? You still glad you left all those http connections dangling Billy-boy?

      They're spcefications for a reason!

      --
      You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  5. Oh the irony... by Timbo · · Score: 2

    ...the best part of the foreword:

    "As for me? I switched to the Mac. No more grep, no more piping, no more SED scripts."

    1. Re:Oh the irony... by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Reminds me of once at work---a publisher added a page to a chapter which ended on a left, meaning that all the following pages had to be incremented by 2---not that big a deal, even in Quark XPress (and trivial in the books which I do using TeX or FrameMaker), except that the index had already been done. While everyone else in the shop was busy trying to figure out how many people would have to be diverted to manually updating the index I dumped it to Quark XPress Tags, copied that to my Mac running Mac OS X, worked up a four line awk script to increment all page numbers after the new page by 2, processed the file with the script, brought it back into Quark, et voila!

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    2. Re:Oh the irony... by MsGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Applescript is still in OSX.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  6. From the forward by radon28 · · Score: 4, Funny

    "As for me? I switched to the Mac. No more grep, no more piping, no more SED scripts.. "

    Oh well. I guess he really can't escape Unix.

  7. From the preface by coene · · Score: 4, Funny

    From the Preface:

    Modern Unix is a catastrophe. It's the "Un-Operating System": unreliable, unintuitive, unforgiving, unhelpful, and underpowered.

    Now, who has the URL to that Microsoft company picture from the 70's where everyone looks high?

  8. Go Figure by cscx · · Score: 5, Informative

    Dennis Ritchie himself uses Windows NT...

    1. Re:Go Figure by dAzED1 · · Score: 3, Informative
      "My own environment (on PC hardware) actually runs Windows NT, but it is used mainly as a graphics terminal connected to a Plan 9 server, in a way approximately analogous to an X windows client."

      Eh? so what. SOme of us don't think of unix as a place to do gui, but instead as a place to do work ;)

    2. Re:Go Figure by Darth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He uses windows NT to connect to a Plan 9 server. The Plan 9 server is where the work is happening. his NT server is mostly a gui terminal.

      Also, he's in management now. He needs the NT box so he can read all the microsoft format documents he has to interact with for work.

      he mentions these things on the link you, posted. Were you being intentionally misleading, or did you just not read it?

      --
      Darth --
      Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
  9. Where are they now? by Saint+Aardvark · · Score: 5, Funny
    Google to the rescue...

    Simson Garfinkel eventually became a hermit and withdrew from public life after too many people mistook him for Art Garfunkel. He now lives in a cave in southern California.

    Daniel Weise went on to work at Microsoft. He distinguished himself as the first non-Samoan to ever pick up Bob Barker after winning the Showcase Showdown on "The Price Is Right."

    Steve Straussman (no website, sorry -- anyone?) left the Unix-Hater's list after it was revealed that he had fallen in love with a woman who loved Unix. He has come to terms with the past, and now teaches "How to Shell Script in Linux" classes at his local community college.

    John Klossner went on to a successful career making cartoons for Lucas' Skywalker Sound company newsletter, until fired for printing one that suggested an unnatural intimacy between Luke Skywalker and Chewbacca.

    Donald Norman won the coveted "Golden C< Prompt" award and retired from public life.

    Dennis Ritchie became something of a celebrity on the web for his many and varied contributions of photos to Engrish.com.

    Scott Burson became a monk and moved to Iceland.

    Don Hopkins ran for office in Lousiana and lost. He is now a semi-successful insurance salesman, and plays harmonica regularly.

    That was all I could find out about -- anyone got any more?

    1. Re:Where are they now? by WillAdams · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seriously, Simson Garfinkel is now a student, and as such is entering his way cool program sBook (see http://www.sbook5.com for downloads for Mac OS X and Windows---sadly the NeXTstep version isn't given away or maintained any longer, the Windows port is done w/ an older version of the QT library and won't work w/ Pen Services for Windows, crashes) in Apple's Developer's Contest this year.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    2. Re:Where are they now? by The+Ego · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's Steve Strassman (a.k.a. Strass), found here.

      When Apple Dylan was cancelled, Dr Strassman went to work on online gaming. I exchanged one or two emails with him around that time, bemoaning the demise of that project (I still consider Dylan to be one of the best languages around). One of my friend at UCLA (Hi Scott !) used to know Steve from high-school.

      I bought the Unix-Haters handbook then and agree with much of the spirit, despite the details being sometimes dated or missing the whole picture (probably on purpose). Despite that I work on Unix (and run OS X / FreeBSD / OpenBSD / Linux at home) and I prefer it to the alternatives I've seen so far.

  10. Ironic by camt · · Score: 5, Funny

    I find it ironic that in the forward he mentions he switched to a mac to avoid cryptic UNIX things like grep and pipes, etc.

    Now Mac OS X is based on UNIX!

    1. Re:Ironic by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. The unix culture is that if you make the underlying tools simple and generic, you can build better high end tools on top of them than if you just target the high end first and ignore the many layers between that and the hardware. By putting a different user interface on top of unix, Apple is very much legitimizing the unix culture (and admitting that their previous OS'es had unfixable design flaws inside.)

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  11. would care about the /. effect by nuintari · · Score: 4, Funny

    I would care about the server getting slashdotted, but since its microsoft's bandwidth, and this is slashdot, I feel compelled to be a dick and not volunteer a mirror.

    Microsoft has more bandwidth than god anyways.

    --

    --Nuintari

    slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.

    1. Re:would care about the /. effect by PerlGuru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the homepage for the book is on a Microsoft server but the pdf is on a small server where space was donated... this is mentioned in the slashdot blurb but then again who even reads the post let alone the article.

    2. Re:would care about the /. effect by bluephone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm, you're a twit. The complete URL to the FILE is http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/uhh.pdf
      Notice the "microsoft.com" part in there. Is it some unwritten rule to comment before knowing your facts?

      --
      jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
  12. slashdotted by zapp · · Score: 2, Funny

    Since when was it a good idea to post a link to a 3.5mb file hosted on a small suburban server on slashdot? :)

    --
    no comment
  13. It's a good read by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I actually have it in paperback form, and it comes with a Unix barfbag. A lot of the points made in the book are still quite valid, but a lot of them are things that have been fixed in the last 10 years. When placed at the appropriate time, you have to realize that it does a decent job of describing the worst parts of Unix from the views of VMS users, among others. Like /., it makes no pretense of being a balanced view.

    My main gripe is that they confuse the Internet with Unix. So an entire chapter is devoted to Usenet. That was written before spam, I'm sure the author would be able to write even more vitriol in that category.

    I'd love to see it updated, particularly given that so many of the gripes have been addressed and fixed in the world of FS/OSS.

    Probably my favorite quote that really needs an update: "Unix was no designed for the Mac." (page 18 of the PDF)

    Michael

  14. Actually a really good book about Unix by IvyMike · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I read this book when it came out, when I was just a mere youth in the world of Unix. I actually learned a lot about Unix, both the history and actual day-to-day usage. It's clearly authored by a collection of people who love to hate unix and hate to love unix.

    In the intervening nine years, a lot of the criticisms in this book have been addressed. Even at the time it was released, this was becoming true. A lot of the issues in the book have a solution, and its name is "Perl". But don't fool yourself; Unix still sucks in a lot of ways. The chapters criticizing X, for example, are unfortunately far too true today.

    I hope the people who read this get the joke; that only a group of people intimately familiar with Unix could have produced such a book.

    1. Re:Actually a really good book about Unix by The+Ego · · Score: 3, Funny

      A lot of the issues in the book have a solution, and its name is "Perl"

      Oh boy, if Perl is the solution, please, please don't expose me to the problem ! :-)

  15. Re:Dear Microsoft... by jonabbey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Unix Hater's Handbook is a classic, and should be read especially by UNIX/Linux fans. I always used to force my minions^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hstudents to read it (until one of my students kept it) so they would have a better understanding of where UNIX had been, and what aspects of it were suboptimal.

    A lot of what TUHH rags on has long since been improved.. who mucks around with /bin/sh, sed and awk now that we have Perl and Python, after all?

    Other things haven't been improved much on the UNIX side, and TUHH includes some important lessons about why that is, and what the real world benefits and costs of that are.

    I'm glad that this is available in some form again now, but it's not the same without the friendly UNIX Barf Bag bound into the back cover.

  16. unix haters? by Unominous+Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't need to worry about those rabid unix haters, I use Linux. Oh wait...

    --
    "Smoking helps you lose weight - one lung at a time" -- A. E. Neumann
  17. favorite part thus far - Unix & C were a prank by dAzED1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    page 337:

    In an announcement that has stunned the computer industry, Ken Thompson,
    Dennis Ritchie, and Brian Kernighan admitted that the Unix operating
    system and C programming language created by them is an elaborate April
    Fools prank kept alive for more than 20 years. Speaking at the recent
    UnixWorld Software Development Forum, Thompson revealed the following:
    "In 1969, AT&T had just terminated their work with the GE/AT&T
    Multics project. Brian and I had just started working with an early
    release of Pascal from Professor Nichlaus Wirth's ETH labs in Switzerland,
    and we were impressed with its elegant simplicity and
    power. Dennis had just finished reading Bored of the Rings, a hilarious
    National Lampoon parody of the great Tolkien Lord of the Rings
    trilogy. As a lark, we decided to do parodies of the Multics environment
    and Pascal. Dennis and I were responsible for the operating
    environment. We looked at Multics and designed the new system to
    be as complex and cryptic as possible to maximize casual users' frustration
    levels, calling it Unix as a parody of Multics, as well as other
    more risque allusions.
    "Then Dennis and Brian worked on a truly warped version of Pascal,
    called "A." When we found others were actually trying to create real
    programs with A, we quickly added additional cryptic features and
    evolved into B, BCPL, and finally C. We stopped when we got a
    clean compile on the following syntax:
    for(;P("\n"),R=;P("|"))for(e=C;e=P("_"+(* u++/
    8)%2))P("|"+(*u/4)%2);
    "To think that modern programmers would try to use a language that
    allowed such a statement was beyond our comprehension! We actually
    thought of selling this to the Soviets to set their computer science
    progress back 20 or more years. Imagine our surprise when AT&T
    and other U.S. corporations actually began trying to use Unix and C!
    It has taken them 20 years to develop enough expertise to generate
    even marginally useful applications using this 1960s technological
    parody, but we are impressed with the tenacity (if not common sense)
    of the general Unix and C programmer.

  18. Stupid argument by jsse · · Score: 4, Insightful


    The Problem with Hidden Files


    Unix's ls program suppresses file whose name begin with a period (such as .cshrc and .login) by default from directory displays. Attackers exploit this "feature" to hide their system-breaking tools by giving them names that begin with a period. Computer crackers have hidden megabytes of information in unsuspecting user's directories.
    Windows' dir program suppresses file whose are attributed with H (such as...what you see in attrib *.* with H with them) by default from from directory displays. Attackers exploit this "feature" to hide their system-breaking tools by giving them attribute H. Computer crackers have hidden mega bytes of information in unsuspecting user's directories.

    Using file name that contain spaces or control characters is another powerful techniques for hidding files from unsuspecting users. Most trusting users (maybe those who have migrated from the Mac or from MS-Windows) who see a file in their home directory called system who't think twice about it - especially if they can't delete it by typing rm system. "If you can't delete it," they think, "it must be because UNIX was patched to make it so I can't delete this critical system resource."

    Using file names that contain spaces or control characters is another powerful technique for hiding files from unsuspecting users. Most trusting users (maybe those who have migrated from whatever-OS-on-earth) who see a file in their system directory called system.dll won't think twice about it - especially if they can't delete it by typing del system.dll. "If you can't delete it," they think, "it must be because Windows was patched to make it so I can't delete this critical system resource."


    The entire article is stuffed with argument as such. Worth reading only for a laugh.

    1. Re:Stupid argument by tarzan353 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if UNIX sucks, and Windows sucks in the same way, then it's alright for UNIX to suck?

    2. Re:Stupid argument by prmths · · Score: 2, Interesting

      another thing i used to do back in the DOS days is use the ascii character 255 in filenames... it's legal in a filename... but it looks exactly like a space on the console; most people are none the wiser when they saw a file with no name. They didnt know how to delete it if they did notice it... It was funny as hell torturing people with a single file that filled up their entire HD with something they couldnt erase... every system has its insecurities.. no matter how secure you try to make a machine.. someone will find a way to get into it... most of what i read in the book is garbage.. how about this one: redirect C: to A: then someone does format A: and it clears their HD
      or throw in format C: /u /autotest into autoexec.bat
      any system is exploitable.. noone is absolutely safe unless the machines are turned off :P

    3. Re:Stupid argument by SN74S181 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The really disappointing thing is that people like you have to come along and say 'well, but look what WINDOWS does!!!' like the world is trapped in an either/or proposition.

      It's not good that so many people treat Unix like a weapon in an anti-Microsoft holy war. That's just lame.

  19. Foreward by Donald Norman, Apple Computer.. by coene · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, in 1997, Donald Norman of Apple bashes UNIX...

    And now all Apple Systems ship with it!

    I [heart] Irony

  20. This one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/humour/msoft.htm

  21. A HOWTO on fixing Unix's user interface by YetAnotherName · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've got the print version of the book. Witty, clever, and sadly on-target in quite a lot of its observations. (I'm still dismayed to see a greater-than character in front of "From" when it's the first word on a line in an email message. There's just no excuse for that in 2003.) And I'm a die-hard Unix lover (logged on using a Silent 700 when I was in 3rd grade).

    But I was turned off that the Unix Haters mailing list was so exclusive: you had to write some similarly erudite and novel observation on how awful Unix was before you'd be let into the club. Clever invective to be kept a careful few? Sounds a bit fearful to me.

    Regardless, it's been years since the book's been out, and Unix still has many warts. The book (and presumably, the mailing list, although I wouldn't know), could serve as a requirements document on how you'd go about improving Unix in general.

    What did the authors offer as a better UI? No, not Windows. Not Mac. Some arcane LISP machine was usually the machine of choice. Sorry, I live in the real world and have to earn a paycheck.

    1. Re:A HOWTO on fixing Unix's user interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At the time, Lisp machines were very real, produced by several vendors, and extremely well-designed in all aspects of the user experience. They were also very expensive, falling behind in the exponential performance race, and the user had to actually agree with the design principles or curse and fight the machine. But one would do well to study them, just as an example of how the best engineering can fail in the marketplace.

  22. Mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    In case it does get slashdotted, there is a mirror at www.cyruslabs.com/unix-haters/

    It even has an HTML converted version for all of us that hate PDF's.

  23. Some very good points... by Brian_Ellenberger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This documents has many excellent points. When you are a green developer just into college you are sort of brainwashed into the "UNIX is the best. PCs and Macs are just toys compared to the incredible power of UNIX." When I encountered things I just assumed it was my lack of knowledge or understanding. UNIX wouldn't have faults or problems!

    Of course, many of these problem have been resolved since this book was written. Unfortunately, far too many have remained and have many their way into Linux.

    A) Cryptic Command Names. Still there in Linux

    B) "Unix was like Homer, handed down as oral wisdom."

    Man, this is so true. I got most of my UNIX knowledge passed down to me by upperclassmen and professors. It is amazing how much training it takes in UNIX to do something simple in Windows. For example, recursively searching through a subtree for some text in a file.

    C) Terminal Insanity. Still there in many ways. VT100 pops up its ugly head decades after it should have been killed.

    D) The X-Windows Disaster. X-Windows is what first made me question UNIX's superiority. Dang X sucks. Bad. What a mess! "Motif Self-Abuse Kit" made me laugh because my brief experience programming Motif was one of the worst in my life. It was a mess of void pointers and pointers to functions that was an absolute pain to program.

    E) Make "Unfortunately, in their zeal to be general, many
    Unix tools forget about the quick and easy part."

    I've never found a make that I liked. You should not have to spend hours programming the freakin makefile. Nor should you have to debug whitespace because you have an extra space or tab.

    1. Re:Some very good points... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It is amazing how much training it takes in UNIX to do something simple in Windows. For example, recursively searching through a subtree for some text in a file.

      It does take some training. If you're just a casual computer user and never intend to go beyond that stage, you might find that annoying. However, let's compare some similar tasks:

      1. Search all files in dir D for the string "car".
        • Windows: Open a search window, browse until you get to "D", type in the text "car", and maybe click a checkbox that says in essence "search contents of files".
        • Unix: find D -type f -print | xargs grep car
      2. Search all files in dir D for the string "car", as a single word on its own (i.e. excluding "cartography", "cartridge", "Decartes", etc.)
        • Windows: can't be done
        • Unix: find D -type f -print | xargs grep -w car
      3. Search all files in dir D for the string "car", and save the result as a text file.
        • Windows: can't be done
        • Unix: find D -type f -print | xargs grep -l car > some-file
      4. Search all files in dir D for the string "car", and put every matching file into an archive.
        • Windows: can't be done
        • Unix: find D -type f -print | xargs grep -l car | cpio -o > /tmp/myarchive.cpio

      I don't want to belabor the point, but this isn't a reason to hate Unix. It's a way that Unix is different and less useful to some while being more useful to others.

    2. Re:Some very good points... by wotevah · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It is amazing how much training it takes in UNIX to do something simple in Windows. For example, recursively searching through a subtree for some text in a file.

      Toddlers might sometimes wonder why people need to learn so many words and learn to speak in complicated phrases, when it seems that all you really need to do is point and cry to get what you want. Then we grow up.

      The power of Unix is that you can use it to do things that its designers did not (nor did they have to) think about. Your example is flawed in its purpose because you will find it increasingly difficult to do tasks the UI people did not anticipate you would need. Such as doing something with those files you found, rename them to .bak or resize the .gifs or whatever. Until someone writes a Visual Basic program to do it and sells it for 29.95.

    3. Re:Some very good points... by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, we can play tit-for-tat here...

      A) Cryptic Command Names. Still there in Linux

      Sure, there are cryptic commands in Linux, but there are equally cryptic commands in DOS/windows. Start with "dir". Sure, its short for "directory", but imagine someone who has never used a computer before, and they want all the files in a certain place on the computer. Do you think they would ask for a "list" of files? Or a "directory" of files? Once you're in the UI, its not much better. If you use more than one version of windows you'll notice real quick that the File Explorer is completely different from version to version starting with win98 (98 worked like 95's browser with some html extensions)

      B) "Unix was like Homer, handed down as oral wisdom."

      I'll just take a moment to point out that this has been a tried and true method for several millenia now. Your example is pretty moot, since it took several revisions of windows before it could search into the text of files (without buying Microsoft Office and using its Find Fast utility)

      C) Terminal Insanity. Still there in many ways. VT100 pops up its ugly head decades after it should have been killed.

      Have you ever used a UI and wished that someone had added a checkbox for a feature you knew was possible? Added extra blanks in window's Find Files panel/dialog to do boolean searching? Unfortunately, when designing a UI, you're designing the limits of the human's interaction with the system. Someone said "I'll just put one blank there, therefore people can search for only one thing at a time." While the same goes for console user interfaces, things like screen real estate are no longer an issue, the only worry is if the user is willing to type the entire command.

      D) The X-Windows Disaster.

      Do you have a better idea? Something that works portably across many systems? Runs on a thin client over the network? Supports multiple color depths including monochrome? Extensible by modules? Operates transparently locally or remotely?

      Doesn't have a per user licensing restriction? Doesn't use "foundation classes" that change every version of the compiler?

      I hardly call X a disaster, when you consider its goals. I'm sorry you had to use Motif, but nowadays we get to choose from plenty of different widget libraries and languages, and can choose one we like.

      E) Make

      I don't know what you're doing to make using make so hard. Automake is tough, but for a single project, which you dont intend to be porting to other systems, a Makefile containing the targets, the sourcefiles, and the commands to compile each takes about 30-60 seconds of typing per target (especially with copy and paste and variables for compiler options), assuming you know how your source files fit together. If you want to do fancy stuff, buy a book. (See B. Not all wisdom is oral.)

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    4. Re:Some very good points... by Alomex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Toddlers might sometimes wonder why people need to learn so many words and learn to speak in complicated phrases, when it seems that all you really need to do is point and cry to get what you want. Then we grow up.

      This is bullshit. Powerful command line functions does not mean they have to be named cp or mv instead of copy or move. Or that their powerful options have to be turned on using cryptic single character options (something that RMS fixed in GNU btw with long form "--" options).

      It is typical of a unix ditto-head to come back with a lame "it's the user's fault" excuse for any sensible criticism of unix.

    5. Re:Some very good points... by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2, Funny

      Toddlers might sometimes wonder why people need to learn so many words and learn to speak in complicated phrases, when it seems that all you really need to do is point and cry to get what you want. Then we grow up.

      "Growing up" should never be taken as either a positive thing or a way of obtaining enrichment or as a manifestation of intelligence.

      Even as a linguist, an individual who truly loves the power and diversity of language, I'm just delighted to know that a toddler can point and cry to express a wide variety of concepts, from the pleading

      "Can I have the doggie in the window?"

      to the effervescently snappy:

      "Bitch, hold this."

    6. Re:Some very good points... by istartedi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unix makes the easy things hard and the hard things possible.

      Windows makes it hard to condense its design philosophy into a similar statement.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    7. Re:Some very good points... by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's why a major new feature in Windows Server 2003 was a much-improved set of command-line tools.

      That, and XML configuration files for IIS.

      Windows is no longer a joke. Don't laugh at it.

      The Linux community laughed at Windows for the past five years. In that time, it went from a joke to a serious contender.

    8. Re:Some very good points... by iion_tichy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, in Unix or Linux it takes some serious dedication to even find some of the fucking tools, much less understand how they're applied

      Doesn't it all boil down to what you are used to? Watch a not so Computer literate person use windows, and think again if it is really as easy to use as you are taking for granted? We tend to forget that we accumulated our knowledge over years. Only recently I switched a friends screen refresh rate from flickering 60Hz to 85Hz - for me it was dead simple, just right click the screen, but how the heck is a normal user ever supposed to get that idea?
      I think it's possible to use Linux with quite few commands on a similiar level as Windows - all you need is cp, mv, ls, cd?
      It also seems to me that the documentation problem has become much less of an issue with the internet around. If it isn't in the man pages, try Google. I still prefer man pages over the windows help system for dummies, which doesn't even give you an idea of what is going on.

    9. Re:Some very good points... by Alomex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the nice thing about Unix, if you don't like something you can fix it:

      but you see, my job as a user shouldn't be to fix the operating system.

    10. Re:Some very good points... by Alomex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, it should be your job to adapt the system to your needs.

      No. It is not that either.

      For example, in Windows it's quite likely that you change the screen resolution and font size to make it more comfortable to you.

      Actually the vast majority of users never tinker wtih any setting whatsoever. So we better ship a system that would be useful for 95% of the users, and then the remaining 5% out will have to tinker with the system.

      Now you tell me, what would the vast majority of users out there would find easier to comprehend cp or copy? mv or move?

      Which also brings us to another problem with Unix. Default settings assume that you are super-advanced, know-unix-warts-and-all user. Whereas in practice, almost by definition, the average user won't be an expert (in contrast elm get's this right. It defaults to novice, and it is the expert who has to tweak the configuration to make elm more terse).

    11. Re:Some very good points... by Alomex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure you adjust the car seat and the mirrors, you don't adjust the carburator and the timing belt. IMHO the default state of most *nix is to require the novice user to adjust down the carburator from "race mode" to "learning how to operate". If you think about it, these users are the ones that are less qualified to make the choice.

    12. Re:Some very good points... by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's why a major new feature in Windows Server 2003 was a much-improved set of command-line tools.

      "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

      I assure you that most of the people who laugh at windows are doing so with a very critical, cautious eye. Sure, there are a few people on COLA and /. who rant and rave without caring, but as someone who admins servers of several OSes, uses computers of several other OSes, and developed software on quite a few OSes, I've seen the best and worst of each, and everything has quite a lot that could be improvable from the user standpoint.

      That, and XML configuration files for IIS.

      Just one question: "Why?". XML was designed to facilitate interchange between systems. What benefit does anyone get out of this? Sure its human readable, but so are most other text based formats.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  24. Re:Mac OS X is not UNIX by damiam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Neither are Linux or BSD. What's your point?

    --
    It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  25. Re:Hopelessly outdated... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Funny
    How far we've come...
    2377 xclock 0.0% 0:00.08 1 9 14 128K 284K 432K 1.52M
    2323 Clock 0.0% 0:01.75 1 52 83 872K 4.63M 3.24M 40.4M
    MacOSX makes this book obsolete.
  26. Re:Great read! by the+gnat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CLIs in general are *not* intuitive.

    I wouldn't ever claim that they are. I would, however, claim that I can work far faster with a Unix CLI than my Windows coworkers can with their GUI. There will always be exceptions, but I've known many people who found Unix far easier to use once they overcame the initial barrier. I find this usability more important than being intuitive. (By the way, as someone who has always used Macs or Unix systems, I certianly don't find Windows at all intuitve, GUI or no.)

  27. so what if these problems also exist elswhere by dh003i · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, so, I think everyone on /. knows that I like GNU/Linux. So, you expect that what follows is going to be a ranting rave about how much this book sucks, right? Wrong. This book is great, and here's why.

    Many here have pointed out that alot of these very same problems exist elsewhere. Hidden files are a social-engineering security problem on Windows and Mac as well; likewise with undeleteable files.

    So what? Saying, "well, their OS sucks too" doesn't make our OS any better. Since when is it ok for me to accept my own flaws just because everyone else around me also has those same flaws, or others?

    The stuff written in this book shouldn't be seen as MS/Mac propaganda. I think most people who are going to be reading it are GNU/Linux users, and aren't going to be switching anytime soon, irrelevant of how much the authors hate *nix. (btw, if *nix sucks so much, why is Mac basing OSX around it, and why do we keep hearing rumors about MS doing such as well?).

    There are many valid and important criticisms of *nix in that book. We should consider ourselves lucky that this book is narrowly targetted to *nix and doesn't address any of the same problems win Windows and MacOS -- we've received solid constructive criticism which others haven't, and that's a good thing.

  28. Re:Great read! by shellbeach · · Score: 2, Interesting
    1. CLIs in general are *not* intuitive. I mean think about it the current metaphors that the GUIs use. You want to move a file in the real work.. you grab it and put it in another folder. You dont say "move this file to there".

    Qualification: a while a CLI can manage files, its major function is not as a file manager.

    CLIs may not be intuitive, but they are powerful in that they can run commands with various changable options. And they make debugging/testing programs a lot easier.

    What CLI's are not good for is general file management, which is one reason why modern linux distros come with GUI file managers and why I use one for managing my files. But if anyone removed the terminals and shells from my computer I'd go insane - I'm always cursing the CLI (or what passes for it) in Win2K at work and wishing there was a decent implementation of BASH for windows ...

  29. Re:favorite part thus far - Unix & C were a pr by minus_273 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Full April fools prank: http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/joke/c.htm

    --
    The war with islam is a war on the beast
    The war on terror is a war for peace
  30. so, why didn't you do something about it? by g4dget · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Most of the people who were on the haters list were actually VMS and Multics users, or like me they had used so many different O/S and written bits of them that they were in a position to make comparisons.

    I think this is part of the blinders that you and other people had on at the time. You hacked operating systems and because hacking some particular OS was great fun for you, you thought it was great for users. But for users, none of that mattered.

    UNIX does come off very baddly compared to the other O/S of its era.

    Maybe from the point of view of a Multics kernel hacker. From the point of view of a user, it looked pretty sweet in comparison to those aging, messy behemoths.

    [Lack of security] did not work to keep UNIx replacing real O/S like VMS.

    You are confusing the presence of security features with security. VMS had plenty of security features, it just managed to be even less secure than UNIX at the time (a pretty amazing feat).

    Denis Richie effectively invented the buffer overun bug. C was the first computer language that had dynamic memory allocation without dynamic range checking.

    Fortran had dynamic memory allocation, which was widely used (too bad it wasn't standardized) and no bounds checking. So did BCPL. So did many Pascal compilers (and not all Pascal compilers offered bounds checking). So, for that matter, did assembly language.

    UNIX is unfortunately not the greatest creation of computer science. The fact that so many youngsters look at the pile of offal uncritically is somewhat disappointing.

    The whole UHH book, as well as your posting, reek of arrogance and ignorance. Do you really think people who chose UNIX at the time weren't aware of the problems that the UHH points out? They (myself included) chose UNIX nevertheless because, in the end, it was still better for getting real work done than the alternatives.

    What the world could have used was some rolling-up of sleeves and efforts to do better, either by bringing those fabulous other systems to workstation-class hardware, or by at least porting over bits and pieces of them (shells, programming languages, etc.). But, in the end, your emperor had no clothes: while people like you whined and complaied a lot, when it came down to it, you apparently really didn't know how to do any better.

    1. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by g4dget · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Sort of like people chose Windows now, because it is now better for getting real work done than the alternatives, right ?

      An obvious but incorrect analogy. First, Windows isn't displacing for UNIX/Linux at all--UNIX/Linux is going strong, in spite of Microsoft's business tactics. Second, most people don't explicitly choose Windows at all, they just get it by default.

      So, how UNIX displaced VMS/Multics isn't at all analogous to the relationship between Windows and UNIX/Linux today. And the thing I criticize Microsoft for isn't primarily the quality of their software, it's that they are not playing on a level playing field. If they were, then I think market forces would take care of Microsoft's software quality issues one way or another.

    2. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sort of like people chose Windows now, because it is now better for getting real work done than the alternatives, right ?
      Yeah, right. The only reason I use Windows (Win95c) is because my PII-266 is just barely too wimpy to run XFree86 at Windows' GUI speeds. I would've played around with it more, but I only have the one computer, and the CD-ROM broke soon after I installed Redhat this last time and I have no cash to replace it--I'm stuck with what I've got for now, and I can't afford to spend a day without a computer fixing a LILO problem with no CD-ROM to reinstall with. Mind you, I'm working on a second PC now, and it's not going to run Windows at all. Furthermore, I would say that 80% of what I do on my computer is through Cygwin. If I'd had more cash, I would've had a dedicated Linux computer years ago.

      What do you call real work, anyway? Displaying slides with powerpoint? Use latex and build them using the slides document class. You'll end up with a PDF that you can run on any machine. Writing code? Give me a break, use cat and ctrl+d or vim. Can you even compile something on Windows by default without having to buy an extra compiler or install Cygwin? About the only real use Windows has on modern computers is using some SSH program to hook into a Unix or Linux machine to do real work, and that doesn't even work right sometimes because Windows periodically crashes itself.

      Try disabling virtual memory in Windows some day. You know what it does? It fucking freezes when it hits the memory barrier...how's that for an unchecked buffer. Now shut virtual memory back on. Do you have any idea how it works, other than ``it uses the hard drive to store memory pages''? Here's how it works: it uses hard drive space until it doesn't have anymore left, then it offers to empty your recycle bin for 16KB of space. My personal belief is that it doesn't ever free memory pages. That way you can guarantee a reboot every couple of days when it bumps up against virtual memory barriers, and Windows _right_ after a reboot works ok. Ever made a FAT32 partition larger than 2GB? 4GB? 8GB? There are two different types of FAT32 partitions as told by fdisk, and they aren't documented anywhere. Make a partition about 18GB large and put about 5GB of files in it. Right click on a deep folder and hit properties. The filesize count will roll over when it gets to be about 4GB.

      Windows has so many issues with it that it won't ever be used for ``real work,'' and Microsoft will eventually run out of new computer users to win over with advertising.
    3. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Goody! Old 1980's flameware predicted.....Puting up my lawn chair and expecting a great show.

      I am so sick of the modern VIM vs Emacs flamewars.

      I remember reading the book when I was first learning Linux. Linux was very hard and awkward at first. Especially back then in 97. A simple concept as a sdk meaning just a compiler and not an ide was strange and a negative for me. Now I laugh at this. I did not understand the concept of using an editor and using a compiler to turn it into code. This was because I was brainwashed with Windows. I understand the weaknesses now of this thinking.

      The arguments about Unix are old in this book and lot of them base it on the"Unix is so hard and broken..." phases.

      Well I have never used VMS so please excuse my ignorance but doesn't VMS have like 200 options just for the set command?

      Isn't VMS also written in C?

      Didn't unix come out first and of course be behind?

      Doesn't Linux/Unix today have journaling filesystems, raw i/o, clustering, smp support, etc that VMS advocates claimed that only there OS had?

      Also does VMS have the everything is a file metaphore like Unix? If not then its a disadvantage to adminster.

      VMS also suffers from X because its the only gui that is standard like Unix. It really sucks and I chuckled at that section. With modern hardware today its somewhat bareable.

      Linux has changed and its alot easier to use.

      For hacking and customizing its the best available. The Windows registry blows and I can not customize Windows like i can with Linux.

      I remember posting a very old post here back in the 20th century before kde was even stable.I stated that unix commands were designed due to limited hardware and offered no real advantage over gui's. They are more powerfull and barely needed for regular desktop use today. I was wrong and the desktop is also here finally for those who fear the CLI.

      As far as I can tell the disadvantages are gone and no other os is as easy to both use as well as hack and customize as Linux/Unix.

    4. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by edhall · · Score: 2, Interesting
      What the world could have used was some rolling-up of sleeves and efforts to do better, either by bringing those fabulous other systems to workstation-class hardware, or by at least porting over bits and pieces of them (shells, programming languages, etc.).

      Dennis Ritchie did just that: witness Plan 9 and Inferno. Or even those versions of Research Unix after V7. Unfortunately, the focus of AT&T and later Lucent was on commercialization, so the innovations found in these products were essentially inaccessible to the communities who could most appreciate and further them.

      It's a sad fact that the original creators of Unix had very little to do with its evolution after 1980 or so.

      -Ed
    5. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by chamenos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      that's like saying volkswagons are lousy because the volkswagon beetle is so outdated. i understand you only have windows 95 to base your conclusions on, but a more fair comparison would be to use windows XP. i've left a computer which runs windows XP for a few weeks at a time without any problems, encoding divx movies and windows XP uses NTFS, not FAT.

    6. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by aurelian · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What do you call real work, anyway? Displaying slides with powerpoint? Use latex and build them using the slides document class.

      Have you ever actually tried doing that? I did once. Using scissors and glue and photocopying onto acetate was actually more efficient.

    7. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by Aidtopia · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are confusing the presence of security features with security. VMS had plenty of security features, it just managed to be even less secure than UNIX at the time (a pretty amazing feat).

      Could you elaborate on this? I was a VMS fan and system manager for a few years, and I've never heard these allegations.

    8. Re:so, why didn't you do something about it? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well I have never used VMS so please excuse my ignorance but doesn't VMS have like 200 options just for the set command?

      I don't remember that being the case. I certainly remember extensive issues in Unix trying to set environment variables and shell variables and finding that each of the different shells seemed to treat what is a pretty simple concept entirely differently.

      At least in VMS you could always ask for HELP. In Unix you can't even consult the manual until you pretty much know what you are looking for.

      Isn't VMS also written in C?

      No, VMS predates C becoming a mainstream language. VMS is written mostly in Bliss32. There are parts of the O/S written in every one of the VAX supported languages however. The engineers apparently did this to ensure that DEC had to ship the runtime for every language with the o/S.

      Didn't unix come out first and of course be behind?

      Not really, the very first version of UNIX did come out before VMS, however there was no significant use of UNIX until the BSD release which was developed on a VAX which had originally shiped with VMS loaded.

      Also does VMS have the everything is a file metaphore like Unix? If not then its a disadvantage to adminster.

      No, VMS does not make that mistake. Things that are not usefully described as files are not represented as files.

      As far as I can tell the disadvantages are gone and no other os is as easy to both use as well as hack and customize as Linux/Unix.

      But as you yourself admit, you have no knowledge of the alternatives so how can you claim to have an informed opinion?

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
  31. macho bullshit attitude by dh003i · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The comment of one macho veteran Slashdotter have so annoyed me that I think it deserves being a main-comment for criticism:

    There are no such things as "rm disasters". There are only mistakes, stop making them, or at least think before you execute.

    Exactly the kind of bullshit macho attitude I was talking about.

    Why don't you try doing that if you're a car company, and sell a car that can so easily be fucked up? Oh, yea, instead of having an out of-the-way hard break lever, we put a hard-break button right next to the defog button...but don't fucking bitch at us if you accidentally press the hard-break button (which is right next to the defog button) when trying to defog your windows, and your car spins around and crashes on an icy road.

    Does that kind of bullshit macho attitude apply for companies making airplanes? When people making airplaies discovered that slats switches were being turned on accidentally, did they say:

    "Yea, so what the slats extention switch can be accidentally turned on by an unintentional movement, possibly causing passenter-injury. Tell the pilots to be more careful and not fuck up."

    No, they didn't. They said,

    "Ok, so this is a problem. Why don't we cover the slats switch with a spherical clear cover that has to be unhinged before extending slats -- that way, they won't get extended at 500mph and cause the plane to trolly."

    Just because many of these problems are socialogical not technological doesn't mean they're not problems. People are not robots. People fuck up -- quite a bit actually. To you perfect people writing a reply to this boldly telling me that people shouldn't "fuck up", how many times did you have to use backspace in writing that response?

    1. Re:macho bullshit attitude by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There may not be any room for it -- but it *still* happens. Period. End of discussion. It's a statistical certainty. Even among sys admin root-users as nearly-perfect as (apparently) yourself will eventually fuck up. It is a statistical *certainty*.

      Also, you seem to assume htat user's individual documents aren't important. Well, they are. And individual users certainly aren't as perfect as you.

      When making something, it is simply *bad engineering* to not consider social phenomena. Technically, there would be nothing wrong with a monitor 40 inches wide and 5 inches high. But the monitor is still fucked up crappy design, because people do not have such a wide field of vision.

      I'd really like to see you design airplaines. Maybe fighter planes. Just to make sure pilots are *extra careful*, the button for "drop bombs" should be right next to the button for "lower landing-gear". So what if they blow up the runway, right. Pilots are supposed to be perfect and should *not* fuck up.

  32. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  33. Bullshit macho attitude by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The comment of one macho veteran Slashdotter have so annoyed me that I think it deserves being a main-comment for criticism:

    There are no such things as "rm disasters". There are only mistakes, stop making them, or at least think before you execute.

    Exactly the kind of bullshit macho attitude I was talking about.

    Why don't you try doing that if you're a car company, and sell a car that can so easily be fucked up? Oh, yea, instead of having an out of-the-way hard break lever, we put a hard-break button right next to the defog button...but don't fucking bitch at us if you accidentally press the hard-break button (which is right next to the defog button) when trying to defog your windows, and your car spins around and crashes on an icy road.

    Does that kind of bullshit macho attitude apply for companies making airplanes? When people making airplaies discovered that slats switches were being turned on accidentally, did they say:

    "Yea, so what the slats extention switch can be accidentally turned on by an unintentional movement, possibly causing passenter-injury. Tell the pilots to be more careful and not fuck up."

    No, they didn't. They said,

    "Ok, so this is a problem. Why don't we cover the slats switch with a spherical clear cover that has to be unhinged before extending slats -- that way, they won't get extended at 500mph and cause the plane to trolly."

    Just because many of these problems are socialogical not technological doesn't mean they're not problems. People are not robots. People fuck up -- quite a bit actually. To you perfect people writing a reply to this boldly telling me that people shouldn't "fuck up", how many times did you have to use backspace in writing that response?

    1. Re:Bullshit macho attitude by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you give the computer a command it should execute it.

      No. The purpose of the computer should be to on average allow the user to get work done as fast as possible. If -- because the computer stupidly executed a destructive typo -- it destroys a days worth of work, it has completely defeated it's purpose: to allow work to be done faster. Part of the way to resolve this is simply to have more intelligent command-line options. Command line options that perform destructive tasks should use letters that are *physically* *far* appart from the letters used to invoke harmless command-line options.

      How often is someone going to 'rm -rf /"? Not very often at all. (in fact, in such a scenario, it would probably be more intelligent to simply reformat that partition). But, in 9/10 times where someone types 'rm -rf /boot', they really meant to type 'rm -rf ./boot'. Period. Now, wouldn't it make sense to have some way of specifying directories that you *don't* want to delete recursively, and prompting the rm-command to prompt hte user "are you sure" for such important directories? Also, libtrash as a default library to intercept such destructive commands and move things to a trashcan would be good

      User error is user error and not the computers fault, you are free to add checks but it doesn't make the statement made any less true.

      Correct. A truly careless user will tend to fuck things up, even if you prompt him "really want to recursively delete entire home directory?" (shorter is better...the longer a message, the less likely the user will read it). However, you can at least put a speedbump along the road to oblivion. It might actually stop a semi-conscious user from deleting all their important info, and save them time. This is good.

      Why? Because the best program that allows the user to get his/her job done the fastest. A program that increases the likelihood that the user will spend 5-10 minutes finding backups and restoring information is bad. Bad, because those 5-10 minutes are wasted. Then the user is pissed off. And his concentration is broken. Odds are, the rest of that users day are going to be unproductive. See "Joel on Software".

      cryptic, and difficult to use for a reason

      What reason would that be? So raving technocrats can scream, "RTFM, bitch whore!"? The GNU/Linux command line is like it is to allow for enormous power, allowing users to do things the program-creators never conceived of. That end-goal does not require that it be so easy for users to shoot themselves in the foot because they were a little bit sleepy one day.

    2. Re:Bullshit macho attitude by fmaxwell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So what you're saying is that the computer shouldn't respond to a command giving to it? You use the word "stupidly" as if the computer can think; until quantum mechanics/physics and energy become everyday run of the mill topics saying something like "because the computer stupidly executed a destructive typo" is a silly statement.

      How hard can it be? MS-DOS has done this kind of thing for over a decade:

      C:> del *.*
      Are you sure (Y/N)?

      Unix stupidly defaults to a "don't ask no matter what" mentality. It will delete every file on the OS with one command and not so much as even ask if you are sure.

      Right that's why "rm -i" exist. "Request confirmation before attempting to remove each file, regardless of the file's permissions, or whether or not the standard input device is a terminal. The -i option overrides any previous -f options."

      That sounds really great. I want to delete hundreds of files in a directory and I have a choice of the default delete-everything-without-asking or ask-me-for-each-file. What if I want to delete 553 log files with the name *log and I accidentally hit [Carriage Return] rather than the "L" key?

      With power comes responsibility, that's just the way life is.

      Bull****! It's an operating system, not the launch codes for nuclear missiles. An OS should be written so that it has reasonable safeguards. How is rm * so much more "powerful" than del *.*? It's not. The only difference is that the former will delete everything without even asking while the latter has some minimal safeguards built in.

      The original poster was 100% correct. Get over it and move on.

    3. Re:Bullshit macho attitude by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 4, Insightful


      How often is someone going to 'rm -rf /"?

      I do it a lot.

      But that's because I use chroot a lot ;-)

      But as is always my policy when doing large rm's, I begin with an ls of the same arguments first so that I can see what it will delete, then arrow-up to the command again and change the 'ls' to 'rm' to do it for real.


      Correct. A truly careless user will tend to fuck things up, even if you prompt him "really want to recursively delete entire home directory?" (shorter is better...the longer a message, the less likely the user will read it). However, you can at least put a speedbump along the road to oblivion. It might actually stop a semi-conscious user from deleting all their important info, and save them time. This is good.

      The "are you sure y/n" method is ONLY useful if it is an uncommon message. If you are always prompted for each and every time you attempt to use the command, then automatically saying "yes" becomes part of your automatic unthinking processes, and it doesn't help matters to have the message there. It has to be a message that when it appears indicates something DIFFERENT from normal is happening. For this reason I never bother with aliasing "rm" to "rm -i" like a lot of people do. It's a useless step that just trains you to hold down the 'y' key after doing an 'rm' command.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  34. Re:favorite part thus far - Unix & C were a pr by lamber45 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This was a hoax. In fact, the C code given does not compile, and I don't see how it would compile under any reasonable compiler that would ever have been built. Even after wrapping the code in a main() function and adding appropriate functions, gcc still chokes on R=; (empty Rvalue) and the second for loop (no increment step). The comma-operator, the and-operator, the bitwise operators, hex constants: any language that gives you a lot of control over your data-structures and how you access them needs these one way or another. Sure, Ada is perhaps more readable. In fact, perl can be made a lot more readable than C, even though it, like about a dozen other languages, borrows its operators straight out of K&R, precedent included.

  35. I guess I could have said this: by istartedi · · Score: 5, Funny

    Unix makes easy tasks hard and hard tasks possible. Windows makes easy tasks easy and hard tasks $29.95.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  36. Re:You too.. by antiher0 · · Score: 2

    Microsoft Research actually employs some of the most respected figures in the computer industry today. Ever heard of Jim Gray? Probably not, because it seems you like to spout off without trying to properly investigate your complaints. Anyways, I'm sure you've heard of such a thing as a "relational database". He shared an award with 8 other folks for inventing it. If you care to actually do some reading before you show off your ignorance, perhaps you should visit MS Research. Microsoft actually funnels tons of money to R&D. It's critical to their continued existence. (incidentally, Jim Gray's site is here)

  37. uhh... WRONG! by TheRealRamone · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ken Thompson invented Unix so that he could continue playing spacewar.

  38. Re:unix lovers/haters commands by QuMa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    - find . -name test.txt (why not just allow 'find test.txt')

    Because that'd be ambigious. That could mean both find all files in test.txt, or as you wanted find files with name test.txt. Making behaviour like that depend on what's on disk is generally a very bad idea. If you use it a lot, put "alias fi='find . -name'" in your shells rc-file.

  39. Re:pretty funny by black+mariah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously, these people had no idea either how to use UNIX or who was using UNIX and why.

    Actually, I think they could all use UNIX perfectly and were making a rather humorous point. Or I could be missing something.

    --
    'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
  40. Re:You too.. by The+Bungi · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't worry - they can afford it. They sell software. You know? For money.

  41. Re:favorite part thus far - Unix & C were a pr by DarkHelmet · · Score: 3, Funny
    And that level of cryptic fashion was not broken until Larry Wall invented Perl a few years later.

    Later, a fellow by the name of Rob Malda helped fashion SlashCode, a piece of code so bloated and confusing that it could disable a whole server.

    --
    /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
  42. HAHAHA by Rhinobird · · Score: 2, Funny
    I got down to the mail chapter and the quote there almost made Mountain Dew spew from my nasal orafice.

    Not having sendmail is like not having VD.
    --Ron Heiby
    Former moderator, comp.newprod
    --
    If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
  43. Best quote by yem · · Score: 2, Funny

    From Donald A. Norman's foreword:
    "If this book doesn't kill Unix, nothing will."

    --
    No, I did not read the f***ing article!
  44. Ahem by Doktor+Memory · · Score: 2, Informative

    It might behoove you to actually read the introduction to the book and the bios of the authors. The people who wrote it were not circa-2002 pro-Microsoft trolls; they were circa-1991 VMS and Multics refugees who as a rule knew more about operating system design and engineering than you'll ever learn.

    Also, pointing out that idiotic mistakes such as "hidden" files have been perpetuated by newer operating systems does not negate the point that it was an idiotic mistake. (Quite the opposite, actually.)

    --

    News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.

  45. Summary by ddilling · · Score: 2, Funny

    For those who don't have time to read the whole thing, I provide this handy summary which (true to the unix philosophy) is 90 percent "good enough":

    Unix has no versioning file system.

    If you want the other ten percent of complaints, you'll just have to read it yourself, but that summary will get you pretty much the whole thing otherwise.

    --
    Mahnamahna!
  46. Mirror by serutan · · Score: 2, Informative

    The MS link is broken now, but the pdf is also available here.