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Phoenix Unveils Anti-Theft BIOS
linuxwrangler writes "According to articles at PC World, c|net, Internet Week and elsewhere, Phoenix Technology is introducing a new BIOS-based anti-theft system. Every time a TheftGuard equipped machine connects to the internet it pings a server at Phoenix which can instruct the machine to wipe its hard drive, report its location or disable itself. Given that most people don't want to have their every movement tracked and don't want someone else to have the power to wipe their drives, Phoenix figures that corporate clients are the prime customer. I just wonder who is liable when a company sells a surplus laptop on eBay but gets their inventory control screwed up and reports it as stolen..."
It was stolen. Police are investigating.
Last I checked, the BIOS was in a socket. What stops someone from swaping out the bios chip before turning on the box?
If this technology were to fall into the wrong hands (read government, RIAA, others) life could truely suck. I hope it never materializes in its current form, or we could have a rather large problem on our hands.
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
I wonder if that kind of system would be vulnerable to spoofing attacks? That would be a pretty nasty trick to play on someone; erase their hard drive by puting a phoenix spoofing server on their network.
What happens if the user is running Linux? I can't see the bios pinging anything without the help of the host OS. Let alone erasing hard drives. Linux will become the thieves OS of choice. It's my OS of choice when looking at a computer that's been disabled by a virus.
Damn Mozilla!
I logged more hours going back to corporate offices and disabling these "features" and assisting their admins mine out old data then I did installing them. I had to stand there and be told how "God damned stupid all of these features are, and how stupid Dell is for using them, and how stupid you are for working with Dell!!!!". This is when I was 19 and had no more business/customer support experience/skills then a guy serving fries at McDonald's. The shit sucked.
Murphy's Law dictates that the benefits of this idiotic and restrictive measure will be over shadowed by it's rare glitch and/or user incompetence which results in the loss of data.
What happens when your battery dies on the SQl server, and the default settings enact this horrid "feature" and your hard drive is slicked? How bad will it suck when it happens to the CEO's assistant's laptop and she comes storming into your pitiful excuse for a NOC right before you were supposed to go on lunch?
Just imagine (no, not a beowulf!) someone breaking into the Phoenix site and instructing every HD to wipe itself. Now Nimbda looks like a joke...
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Aww! How do we expect to get an "early release" of Doom 4 now?
Why not just encrypt the whole hard drive or the just sensitive data? To the thief, it's as good as it being erased.
Besides, in either case, if the thief were an enterprising individual they could recover the data. Empty hard drive? Just do a low level scan. Encrypted hard drive? Spend lots of time and resources trying to crack the key.
With that, why not go for the least destructive measure? Unless, of course, Phoenix is going for the Mission Impossible market -- this laptop will erase itself in 20 secs...
just a thought: how many corporate (or otherwise) IT admins would actually trust a system that enables someone beyond their control to remotely wipe their hard drive clean?
what if you restrict the pings to the phoenix servers? i'm sure people will put up the IPs eventully.
and what if i completely disconnect it from the internet?
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
In other words, it will traceroute the ip and find out where it is geographically located, and then contact the ISP to find out who was on at that time. If it is reported stolen it shouldn't be that difficult for the police to get a court order to get the ISP to reveal that information.
I would like to report that as a beta tester this new bios has served me flawlessly. I have 100 percent faith that I will never suffer any loss of data on its behalf. For all you skeptics out there I can guarantee....
<CARRIER DISCONNECTED>
Microsoft, the RIAA, and other such organizations have been misusing the words piracy and theft to such an extent lately that the instant i saw anti-theft in the headline my immediate, visceral reaction was to think okay, whatever this is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with preventing theft, and is probably just there to prevent you from fully using your computer, until a split second later when I remembered who Phoenix is, and that if phoenix were selling an "anti-theft" BIOS that would actually be what it is.
-----
I wonder if we're going to just kind of accidentally grow into some kind of wierd, reverse "newspeak", like in 1984, except instead of the government purposefully banning negative words, dodgy politicians, media outlets, and corporate officials will simply misuse all of the negative words there are until they've all lost their meaning in the public mind.
[Sometime in the indeterminate future, New Palestinian Liberation Army breaks into Joe Archetype's house and robs him of all his belongings to sell on the black market to finance their bombing raids, and spraypaints PALESTINE FOREVER on the inside wall. Joe goes next door:]
"Help me! My home has been breached by terrorists!"
"Hm? What's the problem? If you have anti-war protestors in your home, can't you just ask them to leave?"
"This is serious! They've stolen all my furniture!"
"So.. they've made copies of all your furniture? Not very nice of them, i guess, but what's the big deal?"
"ARGH!"
"Maybe you can file a DMCA complaint, i guess."
Something like TheftGuard? It's like saying "TheftGuard is OK. But check out things that are like it, and you'll really be impressed."
When a TheftGuard-equipped system is stolen, the owner provides instructions through the TheftGuard web site. The next time the lost computer connects to the Internet, TheftGuard is activated and either disables the machine, wipes its hard drive, or transmits information on the physical location where the signal originates.
The problem with this seems to be that TheftGuard only performs actions after the stolen computer is connected to the Internet. And by the time that happens (if that happens) it's too late. My understanding is that when computers are stolen, the data on them is what's sought, as it is what's most valuable. And once the data is in the wrong hands, it's too late. The data on it can be copied to another place, and perhaps individual hardware components can be removed and sold. Am I wrong about anything here?
Laura
Well, all you would have to do is a trace route back to the offending computer and you could probably get pretty close. Several routers are registered so that they lat/long are known to various trace route programs, making it easier to pinpoint someone. But even if you don't have a program like that, most host names will have some clue as to what state/city you're in.
In my organization, we have been using Computrace which serves the same function. The software installs into the computer's boot sector and is nearly invisible if you don't know to look for it. It contacts the Computrace NOC frequently over IP or modem and reports it's IP address (or caller ID). We now have a pretty nice log of where all our laptops go. The software isn't capable to destroying or disbling the PC, but it's invisibility and reporting features are enough to make it useful.
Computrace reports having retrieved a number of stolen computers based on the data reported by the software. It's definitely useful for any corporate IT department!
From my experience, CEOs usually have very very fine assistants.
Hey, maybe she is actually very technically capable, and consciously activated the erase-all-data feature just so have an excuse to talk to you, give you a chance to ask for her extension etc. =)
Aww shutup and let me daydream.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
"Since TheftGuard's also in the BIOS, even if you remove the hard drive, we can still track or disable the machine, or wipe the drive," he said. Another trick that can eradicate anti-theft software -- running FDISK to reformat the drive -- also is foiled by TheftGuard's place in the HPA section of the hard drive, which is immune to simple reformatting tools.
Any hard disk forensics person will tell you the wonders of dd and netcat working together. Adjust the dd parameters a tad, and the HBA is no longer a problem. If they think the bad guys don't have access to this knowledge, they're as FDISKed as they seem.
This is seriously stupid, so it must have come from marketing, not the techies.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
A 500V shock direct to the testicles?
Yup, time to tighten up my outbound firewall rules.
the no
This is a far saner, less failure prone solution to "The Problem". I have already seen similar hardware solutions used by a friend who develops commercially sensitive commerce stuff, the laptop's a paperweight without the key-card.
Only keep your keys on a something like a USB keychain rather than proprietary hardware. Then attach it to said employee's security pass so they don't leave it plugged into the laptop (or keep a log that emails you every time the laptop is shut down with the USB key left plugged in).
But alas, I can see the PHBs of the world will demand the Mission Impossible version because it sounds cooler.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
It always amazes me when some student at my campus steals a lab computer and doesn't think that our DHCP server will let us know the next time it gets plugged back in to our network. Over half our stolen computers get recovered that way. Just last night, one was stolen (end of the academic year is always bad for theft) and the kid decides to plug it in in his room. He really should have waited 5 more days to use it and he would have graduated on time. Now he is facing expulsion. Idiots!
Now, just how upset would you be if someone came to your door and said that the laptop you bought on eBay last week was stolen? Granted, you'd try to contact the seller to get your money back, but if he's been even the slightest bit clever about things, you might never find out who it was. Further, even if you *DO* find out who the guy is, you still won't get your money back because he'll probably be doing jailtime in the very near future, if he isn't already. Of course, you can legally sue him, but just how do you think you're going to collect?
Not that I'm saying that theft should be ignored... it shouldn't. But doesn't anyone think that efforts might be better spent on technologies that might enable them to catch the criminals *BEFORE* they exploit someone else?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
now that would be THE anti-theft feature. who would screw with that? /me wonders....
http://music.x757x.org/ - techno dj mixes for your pleasure
...if my network connection is down? Will my machine refuse to boot?
I think some of the technical folks on here have missed the point: A 'ping' signal doesn't have be the regular ICMP ping. It could be any sort of protocol that requests an echo back from the target.
...just my 3 cents worth (Canadian funds :-)
I do think that an awful lot of people on here are getting the point: What happens when I, mister malicious black
hat decides to spend a little money on research material and aquires, by one menas or another, a few of these units for destructive testing and reverse engineering? Now I can spoof the Pheonix server on any given LAN and - proof - Merry Christmas, Bob's your uncle!
I can see the military and paramilitary organizations liking something like this. I'd also be surprised if they don't have something similar under lock and key right now. If I recall, most of the concern over the laptops wasn't over the data on them, but more over how the security procedures when awry. There were one or two that went missing from internal areas that wouldn't have been equipped for travel, but they likely wouldn't have been protected by this system either.
Personally, I think people fall into one of two categories:
1) The stupid/ignorant. These people wouldn't buy this BIOS anyway. They're gonna be hooped when their data gets lost/stolen.
2) The paranoid. These people are probably already using strong encryption, finger print scanners, etc. They're gonna be hooped as well... unless they were paranoid enough to do regular backups! Admittedly, the thief won't have access to the data, but I suspect most of the stolen laptops get wiped shortly after the thief copies the porn off for his own amusement anyway.
I see IT managers loving this because it covers their arses. I see the users either not needing it or not liking it.
-Rob
I see all these posts about sniffing and other attacks but how about the question of how Theftguard's website actually authenticates that YOU are the owner of the pc being reported stolen. What if the data needed is ON the pc or some other easily bypassed measure. This is doomed.
It's cheep security, None of the peripherals seem to be protected and that's the meat of any system.
If you buy a used PC with that system in it you should have the ability to contact the maintainer of the system to work out ownership transfer. There should be no fee for this.
Prediction by MrPredicter:
One week after deployment a copy of the BIOS will be posted to usenet, Seventy Six Milliseconds after that it's cracked, patched and offered on WareZ sites with instructions on how to burn, unplug or desolder and install the new chip.
Fixing the above, off the top of my head:
Hardwired into the motherboard is a distributed encryption device that holds all of the motherboard chips, drives, ram and compatible installed cards in an inactive state until a USB or other device is insterted. The unlocking device needs to have been activated with a PIN prior to insertion so that the secret key inside can encrypt a challenge response with the devices in the computer. The device in the computer should also do realtime transparent encryption of the drives and offer network encryption as it would be trivial to add. Internal keys in the device would be the provence of the local IT security staff, they could not be changed by the user.
One nice feature of this method is that, with a well setup OS each users network presence (data, settings, drives ect) could be transparently encrypted, each PC would be generic with no user or company data stored on the PC just on the network. Other networkable protocols could be implemented. I think Linux is close to part of this done in software.
The device would need to be distributed, that way an attacker would have to compromise every device in the computer to make any use of the computer. Even the ram would not be of use.
It would be possible to do this in a compatible way to protect the addons use extenders/risers that contain the encryption receivers which would be epoxied to circuit cards, drives and ram would slightly reduce cost and void warranties but allow easier upgrades by just adding a riser. The other method is to order specially modified hardware and only the Motherboard needs this. Yes, there are all sorts of drawbacks mostly stability issues and the CPU is stil not protected from theft.
Isn't there some sort of specification for all this, this didn't just come to me a vacuum, well I vacuumed it up, most probably from the cypherpunks mailing list but can't remember.
Total added cost to the PC, too much:
Just hire a damned good degreed security specialist and a retain a good physical security consultantcy and let them work with a team of people to implement a reasonable security system and stick with it. Add to that good training for the security people and rigorous *reoccuring* background checks. Also a mid/upper level management that actually listens to the experts in this is needed, eviserate the dead weight as needed.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
here's another:
;-P
disgruntled fired admin, on his last day, instructs firewall servers to redirect pings to phoenixbios.net: boom! every computer in the company gets an empty harddrive
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It's directly across the road from 106.223.16.96, stupid. Gee whiz, you'll never be a cop.
Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...
So if an evil minded Hax0r gets his hands into Phoenix' server, or manages to get at the keycodes and to redirect the trafic, he can wipe all of any corporations laptops if they adopted this scheme?
That means they're introducing a risc to get their business fscked (or rather formatted) if they depend on those laptops and need to connect them to the internet. I think that's a high price to pay to protect against the theft of a few laptops.
Also it doesn't even work: maybe it's hard to change the BIOS chip (given a replacement BIOS and the right equipment it should be doable), but if the thief is really interested in just the data he simply reads it without conecting the laptop to the internet, or he even removes the harddisk altogether and analyses its contents.
If they really want to protect their data they should go for encrypted filesystems or at least encrypt the sensible data so only authorized persons can access it, problem solved.
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Your average criminal is looking for some fast cash, and doesn't know a damn thing about IP, firewalls or flashing the BIOS.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Somebody hacks into the company and flips the kill switch on all the bios's. Thousdands of laptops, most of them not backed up routinely, are wiped. Ouchy.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
As it stands now, this looks like a bad idea, as expressed multiple times by many of the comments. Besides the technical problems, to me it points to a larger problem that is growing every day: Private businesses trying to provide law enforcement.
Assuming they could get past all the potential technical hurdles regarding security and authentication, we still are basically saying that a private company can alter/damage the contents of a computer legally without any coordination with law enforcement. That scares me.
Basically, this is sort of a computer version of low-jack. Which is cool. But in this version, it would be as if you could call up the low-jack people, have the car disabled, get a report of where the car is and take care of the matter yourself. Of course, as far as I can tell, low-jack doesn't work that way. My roommate can't find my documentation for the low-jack, make a phone call and leave me stranded just to play a joke.
I'd like to see this system in place. I for one sure would be happier to know that if somebody stole one of my laptops there was some method out there to recover it. But that's a job for the police, not some big business. Sure, Phoenix can build tools that I might buy that would assist the police, but I'd want to be dang sure that they can't do anything to one of my machines until the cops tell them it's all right. And the cops can't tell them that until I've filed a police report and asked them to do it.
Yes, I know that law enforcement has a long way to go to really get a handle on computer based crimes, and at the moment are pretty impotent in catching the bad guys. But what I don't like seeing is big faceless corporations coming in and picking up the slack.
The Internet is generally stupid
Every time I open a system case, I feel like stealing the BIOS. Screw the CPU(s), memory, video card(s) and hard drive(s), just gimme that BIOS chip!
OLPC Australia
a computer gets stolen, thieve removes the harddrive, sticks it into a second computer (with an older BIOS) ..... and reads the disk.
How does this Hot New Protection from Phoenix protect business information/secrets ?
a full-disk encryption seems to be more effective
Oh gee, like thats gonna be REAL popular with people.. How long will it take an enterprising young 14-year-old to write a little hack that sits on a network, opens promiscuous mode on a NIC, watches for calls to Phoenix's verification IP, and answers back with a smurfed "AAGH! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!" reply before Phoenix, Inc. has a chance to?
And I, for one, don't want the operation of my machine to be wholly dependent upon whether or not it's connected to a public network.
Stupid idea, if you ask me.
You want PC security? A note on the wall that says "If you screw with this machine, I'll know, and i'm quite capable of kicking your ass, having you fired, or both." will do the trick nicely.
Seriously..When I was in HS, the guy who ran the computer room was massively anti-piracy. If he even *suspected* you were using pirated shit in the lab, he'd confiscate your disk and literally staple it to the wall. Got the point across.
Bowie J. Poag
You are both correct, although the original poster added an unnecessary "i" in his usage.
However, while english accepts the plural "viruses", the technically correct plural form of "Virus" is "Viri". We are of course going with the Nominative plural form of the the latin noun Virus (meaning Poison). But you probably already new this fact and the fact that many english words are derived from latin (focus, foci would be another example of the same situation).
singular
-us
-i
-o
-um
-o
plural
-i
-orum
-is
-os
-is
You should make sure you know what you are talking about before you go slamming someone for being pretentious. Its possible he's just better educated than you are.
-rt
I think the main problem with computer theft is not the loss of some more or less cheap piece of hardware. That can be replaced easily. The major damage is that you'll lose your data. But security measurs like the harddisk security features that are stored in a hard disks firmware make it very hard to get access to the data. Especially considering that a normal thief is not an IT expert.
If industrial espionage is concerned then your enemy has enough knowledge to do bad things when he has real phyical access to the machine. So a BIOS won't help much to keep an expert away from my data if I don't do additional measures.
What would be really helpful against data loss is a BIOS that goes on strike if I don't do backups of my data frequently... but that leads us to the problem that there is no easy way of backing up 80 Gigabytes on a 3.5 inch floppy...
Let's face it, the thief who steals it won't have the problem, it'll be the poor sap daft enough to buy it at the end of the chain. Just like the stolen coded (i.e. not-working) car radios which get sold at the local pub/garage sale/car boot sale - who's going to have all the necessary gear to check it at the time of purchase.
By the time the buyer realises, the thief is long gone - it just moves the problem, doesn't eliminate it. Just like the car immobiliser law brought in here in Western Australia - all cars have to have them. So now we get people being attacked near their cars or in the house so the thief can get the keys.
Go permanent? In your dreams and my worst nightmares.
Likewise, it doesn't take more than a little research to find someone who can make "Phoenix Theft-Guard Protected" stickers for your laptop for a few pennies a pop.
Personally, I'd go with the "This Laptop is GPS enabled and filled with C4 explosives set to go off when reported stolen. Enjoy life with your three out of ten fingers."
No, no, no.. It's inelegant to extend a latin root by just adding extra "i"s.. To be true to the spirit of the language, surely it would be more appropriate to proceed thusly:
4 viruses = viriv
9 viruses = virix
1001 viruses = virmi
etc..
Some guy in the Phoenix marketing has a brilliant idea ! Let's "market" the bios so that every year the user is forced to buy a "security upgrade" and let's call it a "security feature". At worse we'll blame either pirates like some other big company does, or we'll blame hackers. I hear the master hacker is hiding in caves...
It seems obvious to me they want to extract more money out of customers by crippling the bios rather then by really improving it.