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DeCSS Arguments in CA Supreme Court Case

scubacuda writes "According to News.com, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer called DVD-cracking software DeCSS a tool for "breaking, entering and stealing" during a hearing before the California Supreme Court on Thursday. "The program DeCSS is a burglary tool," Lockyer told the judges, adding that the movie studios lose millions of dollars because of piracy over the Internet. (CopyLeft offers this "burglary tool" on a t-shirt)" If you've forgotten what this case is about, see EFF's page about it.

112 of 531 comments (clear)

  1. Right... by g0at · · Score: 5, Funny

    DeCSS is a burglary tool just like how I'm actually growing dildos in my vegetable garden.

    1. Re:Right... by rgoer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So that's where I dropped my dildo seeds... In any case, is there really such a thing as a "burglary tool?" Is there any kind of precedent for an object being considered, by the courts, to be a "burglary tool?" Is the sale of things like a slim jim for a car restricted? Do you have to show either your locksmiths' license or your burgalry permit to purchase one? Are they even categorized differently than normal "hardware?" Where does the MPAA come up with this crap?

    2. Re:Right... by Shenkerian · · Score: 5, Informative

      I believe many, if not all, states restrict the sales of lockpicks and key-cutting machines. So there is precedent. I don't think it's being appropriately applied here, though.

      --
      You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
    3. Re:Right... by ichimunki · · Score: 4, Informative

      Where does the MPAA come up with this crap?

      Well, the best part is that copyright infringement is not burglary. It's copyright infringement. That's why there are separate laws to cover each kind of offense. :)

      --
      I do not have a signature
    4. Re:Right... by bigbadbuccidaddy · · Score: 2, Funny

      I represent Monsanto and you are illegaly using our genetically engineered dildo seeds without a proper license. Please cease and decist this illegal behavior.

  2. Hrmm by acehole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well... shall we ban any tools that can be used for breaking and entering then?

    * screw drivers
    * crowbars
    * keys
    * bits of metal
    * credit cards

    please, cuff me and send me to the bighouse, i've got a tool shed!

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
    1. Re:Hrmm by MrNemesis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that all those tools have many legitimate uses.

      Despoite being wrong IMO (and most of yours too I imagine), DeCSS is still seen by the masses as being solely for the purposes of theft.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    2. Re:Hrmm by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What it's seen as by the masses is irrelevant. DeCSS or something similar is required if you want to view a DVD that you bought and all you have is a Linux box. This is a legitimate use, just as hammers and shovels and pry bars also have legit uses.

    3. Re:Hrmm by mttlg · · Score: 2
      Don't forget:
      • Soap (for making impressions of keys)
      • Household cleaners (could be used as chemical weapons)
      • Toothbrushes (for making shivs)
      • Mops (lethal when in the hands of Jackie Chan)
      • Surgical gowns (the bad guys always use these as disguises to evade the police)
      Clearly, we need to outlaw all health and cleanliness items for the good of the people. After all, I saw these things used for all kinds of evil purposes in movies, and never for anything positive...
    4. Re:Hrmm by ichimunki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I don't think the masses would even know what you were talking about if you started talking about DeCSS. Hell, half of the masses don't even have the internet at home. A great number of them don't have a computer either. And while DVDs are taking off, I doubt very many folks are going to be able to discuss this past "well, if you want to watch DVDs, why don't you just buy a DVD player, they're like $100 at Target?" Besides, the masses aren't going to be the ones making this decision in the courts. And in this case, we're lucky, judges, by their very nature have far more education and access to the funds to buy computer stuff than the average American, and are therefore, more likely to be able to understand what DeCSS is all about.

      Unfortunately, I'm guessing most of these same judges have themselves or had one of their children download Kazaa, and therefore they've seen that the primary use of P2P seems to be copyright infringement... and then to top that off, they're going to link things like DeCSS as a necessary first-step in that infringement chain. The real question is: can the pro-DeCSS lawyers overcome this impression?

      --
      I do not have a signature
    5. Re:Hrmm by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a legitimate use, just as hammers and shovels and pry bars also have legit uses.

      Not necessarily.

      CSS is an encryption system, designed to ensure that DVDs are played only in players sold in the intended market.

      The MPAA and the DVD consortium make no secret about CSS's existance and their region-encoding scheme, and anyone competent and aware enough to run Linux has no excuse to not know this.

      If CSS is a legitimate tool, and region-encoding / player certification are legal business tools, then DeCSS is not a legitimate use. Even if it's found to be legal and legitimate somewhere, it may still be illegal somewhere else.

      And, AFAIK, public perception is relevant to legal decision. If a noticable majority percieved DeCSS as a free speech issue, few courts would treat it as something else.

    6. Re:Hrmm by mahdi13 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The lawers are just pissed off because what their clients worked hard on for 3 years was reverse engineered by a teenager over spring break =)

      --
      "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
    7. Re:Hrmm by jgerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, just because the MPAA and DVD Consiortium think they can tell me on what device I can watch my legitimate purchase doesn't mean that they actually can. I paid for the DVD, nothing else. The copy protection argument is nonsense. I paid for the right to view this media and dammit I will in whatever form I choose. If I cross the line and copy it for distribution, then you can complain, but until that time they can bite me.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    8. Re:Hrmm by dh003i · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fuck that bullshit. I have the right to watch any DVD I pay for anywhere on any system on of my choosing, using any DVD-viewing tools.

      It's really simple. I buy a DVD. I own that DVD. I thus have the right to watch that DVD, however fucking damn well I please. Let's not let MPAA double-speak confuse the only relevant issue, which is my right to watch a DVD I've purchased on the platform of my choice, using the tools of my choice.

    9. Re:Hrmm by molarmass192 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      IANAL but I imagine stealing a key and then using that key to gain unauthorized access with still be B&E.

      Right, however, in order to VIEW an encrypted DVD you MUST bypass the copyright protections. This is true by definition for any player/platform. DeCSS has a legitimate use for this particular purpose. The fact that it CAN be used to decrypt DVDs for the purpose of copying them is another matter altogether. I'm sure 99.9% of the time DeCSS is used it's used for VIEWING and not COPYING.

      <rant>
      Now that that's said, I think it's pathetic that the MPAA relies on encryption for DVDs. History has shown over and over that ALL encryption that is decryptable is breakable by definition. They should stop this nonsense and start prosecuting when they find copyright theft. Anyhow, most DVD copyright theft is probably a straight rip, encryption included. So in effect, the encryption is utterly useless anyhow.
      </rant>

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    10. Re:Hrmm by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      DeCSS is a tool, just like a hammer, or an alligator.

      More to the point (AFAIC), it's an expression of an algorithm. It's simply a description of a mathematical process.

      Come to think of it, the *source* to DeCSS is not really a tool at all. You can't use the source to watch DVDs. I could maybe see justification for classifying DeCSS binaries like lockpicks and slimjims, but the source is more like the description of how to make a lockpick.

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    11. Re:Hrmm by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Lets look at your points one at a time:
      The MPAA and the DVD consortium make no secret about CSS's existance and their region-encoding scheme,
      It doesn't say it anywhere on any of the packaging. Not only that, but most consumers aren't aware of it.
      ...and anyone competent and aware enough to run Linux has no excuse to not know this.
      So if I set up a computer for my nephew, you're saying I should lock him into Windows? So we have, according to your arguments, an anti-trust product tie-in. Here we go again ... :-(
      If CSS is a legitimate tool, and region-encoding / player certification are legal business tools, then DeCSS is not a legitimate use
      The legitimacy of one has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the other. The vendor cannot prescribe how I use the product once I've purchased it. I own it, and if I want to use it as a frisbee, that's my choice.
      public perception is relevant to legal decision.
      The law is not a poll. The courts have taken, and will continue to take, decisions that are unpopular with the public at the time, based upon what the law states, not on public opinion. Judges that rule based on solely on public opinion are simply not competent.
      If a noticable majority percieved DeCSS as a free speech issue, few courts would treat it as something else.
      So, if a poll comes out stating that a noticable majority thought that it was ok to discriminate/kill/beat up on (insert group here), the courts would go along with it? Come on... Not to be mean, but you're actually making my point :-)
    12. Re:Hrmm by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Good point. Just like a knife in the kitchen is just a cutting tool, but when I stick it into someone's chest, it becomes a deadly weapon. Even binaries are useless unless they're actually running on the host system, ore one capable of emulating it.

      Maybe they should hook up w. SCO. Look at the commonality:

      1. They both don't want you accessing the source code.
      2. They both want you to pay licensing fees for womething you don't need.
      3. They both have used/are using the same lawyer (Boies).
      4. They both can't come up with a business model to suit changing conditions.
      5. The both are using the courts to try to fatten their bottom lines.
      6. The both love FUD
      7. They both need a serious beating with a clue-stick.
    13. Re:Hrmm by CyberGarp · · Score: 4, Insightful
      IANAL but, for a contract in the United States to binding it requires two things:
      • A signature by both parties
      • An expiration date or term
      When I goto the store and buy a DVD with cash, I didn't sign a damn thing. No contract, NADA. Othewise, I could write contracts on the bottom of rocks that say, "If you picked this up you owe me your first born son."
      --

      I used to wonder what was so holy about a silent night, now I have a child.
    14. Re:Hrmm by Art+Tatum · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If CSS is a legitimate tool, and region-encoding / player certification are legal business tools, then DeCSS is not a legitimate use. Even if it's found to be legal and legitimate somewhere, it may still be illegal somewhere else.

      The only reason DeCSS could be illegal is the circumvention portion of the DMCA. The only thing protected here is copy prevention schemes. Congress specifically got rid of the access prevention protection.

      You can still use access prevention schemes, of course; but it's not a violation of law to bypass one. And CSS only prevents access.

    15. Re:Hrmm by corbettw · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, all a contract needs is an agreement by two parties. For a good overview of contract law, see the Cornell Law Library's overview.

      Briefly, a contract is a legally enforcable promise between two people. The terms of the contract can be pretty much anything, all it takes is both parties' agreement to the terms. If a DVD publisher sells you a DVD with the promise you can play it for your own personal use, with the provisions that you not gain financially by it and that you only play it on previously approved devices, that's fine. Your agreement to those terms is sealed when you promise to pay $20 for that DVD, and then do so.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    16. Re:Hrmm by bigpat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Right, however, in order to VIEW an encrypted DVD you MUST bypass the copyright protections"

      words are legally very meaningful here, really what you meant to say is that you must 'bypass the COPY protections'

      Copyright is a legal right to copy and should have nothing to do with ones ability to copy.

      Most of us here are arguing that one way or another we should be allowed the ability to copy content, while understanding that we don't have right to copy, until the copyright expires, except maybe for personal use once we have purchased a copy.

      This should be a simple case of reason, copyright law gives us a right to copy content after a certain period of time... this right cannot be realized unless we have the ability to copy that content. So, in a very real and basic way copy controls deprive people of their right to copy. The laws that prevent people from circumventing these copy controls are inherently corrupt.

      Corrupt doesn't mean that people were paid off to push these laws through, which may or may not have happened, but they are corrupt laws because they contradict the very basis of our understanding of Copyright. Creators have a time limited right to legally control and profit from the distribution by copy of their work. After this period of time it is part of the public domain and we have a legal right to copy it and distribute it if we please.

      A consistent and equitable law would ban copy controls all together, not seek to outlaw their circumvention.

    17. Re:Hrmm by Kintanon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now, before you get all riled up, think about this. Two people can enter an agreement. I can write a book, and say that I will only sell it to people who will read it only while standing up, facing due north. We can codify that, put it into a contract, and if we both sign it under the right circumstances its binding. You and I have both agreed to exchange money for an object and a right.

      The important point in your statement is the word CONTRACT. You see, I never signed any contract, nor entered into any agreement with anyone when I purchased my DVD. I gave 20$ to the guy behind the register, he put the DVD in a bag, and I left with it. I didn't sign any agreement saying I wouldn't watch the DVD on linux, or smash it with a hammer, or anything.
      So unless I'm actually performing an already illegal act (Like sharpening the edge of the CD/DVD and stabbing people with it, or making copies and selling them) then there's nothing that can stop me from doing what I want with the DVD.
      There is not a legal prohibition against watching DVDs on linux. There is not a law that says I am performing an illegal act. So, since there was no contract, I've violated no contract law, and since it's not illegal to watch a DVD on Linux (I promise you, it's not. I've checked with quite a few lawyers and judges), I'm not doing anything illegal.
      No copyright infringement is taking place as I'm not copying the work nor am I purchasing an illegal copy of the work. No breach of contract as I never entered into any contract, no legal issue at all.
      The only POSSIBLE legal issue is the DMCA issue. And I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually apply to home viewing of a video in this fashion though that hasn't been established by the courts yet.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    18. Re:Hrmm by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Funny
      It's Friday, so it's my turn to feed the trolls :-)

      <troll-feeding mode on>

      1. Not to mention you appear to not understand many of the nasty clauses of the DMCA that are designed just for things like CSS
        The limits of the DMCA are being tested by cases like this ...
      2. this refutation contains some of the most ridiculously pedantic assdrippings I've ever read.
        This is a court case, so we're talking about lawyers. Gotta be pedantic, the whole "when in Rome..." thing :-)
      3. As to that whole Windows comment...what the fuck was all that about?
        Sorry you couldn't figure it out, I'm sure most other readers will be able to, tho...
      4. If we're lucky, you'll have a near-death experience soon ... If we're very lucky, said experience will be the result of someone kicking your ass for being annoying.
        You're welcome to try next time you're in Montreal . Weapon of choice - Canadian Beer. Bet even my dogs can out-drink you.
      <troll-feeding mode off>
    19. Re:Hrmm by Fascist+Christ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The courts have taken, and will continue to take, decisions that are unpopular with the public at the time, based upon what the law states, not on public opinion.

      Thank you so much for saying that! I'm glad there are people who understand how essential this is. Do you realise that there are states who elect their Supreme Court Justices? That is such a big mistake. If they have their jobs for life, they can make unpopular rulings. Since they can't be fired, they can even rule against government officials!

      --
      TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
    20. Re:Hrmm by mbogosian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're arguing the MPAA side - they don't sell you a copy of a movie, they sell you a disc which may have something on it, which may resemble a movie, and which can be used only in approved devices. The Linux side is arguing that they are buying a copy of the movie so that they can watch it on their computer.

      If that's true, then they're effectively licensing the content to you which means that you should be able to make a copy of the content for backup purposes (for which DeCSS may be used as a legitimate tool), and/or the publisher should make available to you that content at cost for the media only should your media ever become damaged or unplayable. As we know they want to legislate against these too. I'm sorry folks, but you're either selling a license or a copy of the content. You can't have it both ways.

      - = - = - = -

      To the Office of the Attorney General for the State of California:

      I am writing in severe distress over what I consider to be an outrage in the State of California Office of the Attorney General.

      Recently, Attorney General Bill Lockyer called certain DVD viewing software "a burglary tool", (see http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-1011326.html). This is coming from the Attorney General of a State at the forefront of the Antitrust Trial against Microsoft.

      As a consumer, I choose my purchases carefully and exercise my rights to the fullest extent of the law. I refuse to run any Microsoft product on my home computers. Instead, I run Linux. I enjoy viewing DVDs that I have purchased legally on my computer. Software such as DeCSS allows me to do that. By referring to it as "a burglary tool" Bill Lockyer is effectively calling me a burglar for watching my own DVDs, to which I take great offense. I am hereby revoking any support I have of Mr. Lockyer and will be sure to educate anyone I know about his efforts to restrict the rights of consumers.

      The MPAA is behaving very much like the software industry did (erroneously) in the 80's and early 90's. They have effectively attempted to enforce a "license" on the consumer restricting where, when and how material stored on media such as DVDs can be viewed. However, if my DVD wears but or becomes scratched and unviewable, then neither the publisher nor the MPAA will replace that media. I have to go out and purchase a new copy (effectively an additional license) at full price.

      They can't have it both ways. They must either eliminate the use of the effective license, or they must allow copying for purposes of backup and/or replacement of destroyed media at zero profit to the consumer. Any failure to do so constitutes theft against the consumers of California and this Nation. By supporting them, Mr. Lockyer may be counted among them as an accessory.

  3. Name calling? by absurdhero · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It looks like the industry is so desperate, they have to resort to name calling and hollow accusations. What a sad state of affairs.

    1. Re:Name calling? by aborchers · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It looks like the industry is so desperate, they have to resort to name calling and hollow accusations. What a sad state of affairs.

      I expect this kind of nonsense from "the industry". What's terrifying is they have a DA doing their name calling for them!

      --
      Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
  4. This again??? by Bull999999 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Didn't they use the same exact argument when VRCs came out?

    --
    1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
    1. Re:This again??? by krystal_blade · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, the argument against "Vicious Rectal Colonizing" is what spawned the revision of personal property laws versus the common good.

      That argument still gets around from time to time though.

      krystal_blade

      --
      It will be easy to motivate our fellow man; there is hardly anything people treasure more than not being annihilated.
    2. Re:This again??? by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Funny

      No. The VCR was compared to The Boston Strangler. This is just compared to a burglary tool.

      Clearly the motion picture industry's attitude is softening a little.

    3. Re:This again??? by red_gnom · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Lockyer told the judges, adding that the movie studios lose millions of dollars because of piracy over the Internet."

      Well, the statistics do not seem to back this statement up. It looks that the movie industry is doing better then ever:

      YEARLY BOX OFFICE

      In year 2002 they grossed $9,135 millions.
      In year 2000 $7,661 millions.
      In year 1996 $5,911 millions.
      So the number of downloads mast be increasing their profits, and if it is so, I think they should repay some money to the downloading community for advertising and marketing activities.

  5. Doesn't it seem odd... by Nu11.org · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That a tool that allows people to copy their DVD's for their own purposes is "a tool for burglary", yet a gun which allows people to kill other people is a "right"? Null

    1. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by Hypocritical+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

      That a tool that allows people to copy their DVD's for their own purposes is "a tool for burglary", yet a gun which allows people to kill other people is a "right"?

      This makes me so angry I want to go shoot someone!

      --
      If you liked licking my balls, add me to your foes list!
    2. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by fobbman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Software doesn't pirate DVDs...PEOPLE pirate DVDs.

    3. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by s20451 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Although this seems like a troll, it really isn't. In recent years, both before and after Sept. 11, the US government has passed a raft of legislation curtailing and limiting the 1st Amendment, to the general apathy of the population. Meanwhile, any suggestion of curtailing the 2nd Amendment, however mild, is met with howls of protest.

      Wouldn't it be nice if the ACLU was as politically powerful as the NRA?

      Disclaimer: I am a Canadian.

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
    4. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      any suggestion of curtailing the 2nd Amendment, however mild, is met with howls of protest.

      If faced with creeping tyranny, wouldn't you want to be armed, just in case?

    5. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by TamMan2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Didn't help the iraqis...

      Disclamer: I am not against the 2nd amendment, it is just that that argument is freakin' weak...

      --
      "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
    6. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by scubacuda · · Score: 5, Informative
      While funny (and applicable), that story is bogus.

      Claim: Questioned about the wisdom of teaching Boy Scouts to use firearms, a US General points out the difference between being equipped to do something and doing it.

      Status: False.

      Example: [Collected on the Internet, 1999]

      This is an extract of an National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Army Lieutenant General Reinwald about sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop on his military installation.

      Interviewer: "So, LTG Reinwald, what are you going to do with these young boys on their adventure holiday?"

      LTG Reinwald: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."

      Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"

      LTG Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

      Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"

      LTG Reinwald: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm."

      Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

      LTG Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

      End of the interview

      Origins: As great a tale as this is, it's pure fabrication. It began life in 1999, purportedly about an "LTG Reinwald" of the US Army. In 2001 it reappeared, this time attributed to "Marine Corps General Reinwald."

      The U.S. Army denies that there is a Lieutenant General Reinwald and chalks the whole thing up as a hoax. (Which is as logic dictated all along; if an armed forces spokesperson ever gave voice to a sexist remark likening a female interviewer to a prostitute, that officer would soon be called upon to make a very public apology as well as face charges within ranks for conduct unbecoming.)

      National Public Radio had this to say about the matter:

      We are aware of an erroneous story posted on the Free Republic Website, and possibly elsewhere, which mentions a supposed interview between an unnamed NPR reporter and a U.S Army Lieutenant General Reinwald. The story is false -- the dialogue mentioned was not an NPR interview, and it never aired on any NPR program.

      Those who like their guns and who believe responsible gun ownership begins with teaching young people the right way to handle firearms at an early age have a great fondness for this story. As well they should, because this anecdote illustrates in a humorous way the difference between having the ability to do something and that ability dictating life choices.

      The "Reinwald" story existed as a joke as far back as October 1997 when it appeared on a number of web pages in the following form:

      Excerpt from a recent live radio interview on one of the regional Welsh stations:

      A female newscaster is interviewing the leader of a Youth club:

      Interviewer: So, Mr. Jones, what are you going to do with these children on this adventure holiday?

      Mr Jones: We're going to teach them climbing, abseiling, canoeing, archery, shooting...

      Interviewer: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible isn't it?

      Jones: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range.

      Interviewer: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

      Jones: I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm.

      Interviewer: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

      Jones: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one are you?

      Needless to say, the interview was terminated almost immediately.

      Notice the differences that have taken place between the two tellings:

      * "Abseiling" has been taken out of the Americanized version (probably because whoever altered the text didn't know it was a r

    7. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by dameron · · Score: 4, Insightful
      >>any suggestion of curtailing the 2nd Amendment, however mild, is met with howls of protest.

      >If faced with creeping tyranny, wouldn't you want to be armed, just in case?

      To paraphrase a jurist I heard on the radio recently, the 2nd Amendment isn't our great bulwark against tyrany, the 1st Amendment is.

      The upcoming stealth FCC media consolidation deregulation poses a far, far greater threat to democracy than the most rabid gun control advocate.

      -dameron

    8. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bullsh*t.

      It's not the weapons, it's the training.

      If it were Russian soldiers or Viet Cong instead of clueless civilians, the US Army would take such a beating that it cry "wee wee wee" all the way home.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:Doesn't it seem odd... by knobmaker · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You have very little chance of fighting off a determined gov through ownership of civilian weapons.

      This is a popular view, and makes it more comfortable to accept the idea of domination by powerful police and military organizations. I believe it to be incorrect.

      First of all, an uprising in America would not take the form of such Hollywood scenarios as Red Dawn. It would in all likelihood begin in the urban centers. Urban fighting is very different from fighting in open country, particularly if the people in power count the urban infrastructure as part of their assets. In other words, the American government is very unlikely to drop battlefield nukes on Manhattan, because they'd be destroying their own possessions. This scenario applies to many other aspects of a popular American uprising-- from powerplants to factories to transportation. The military would be constrained in its use of overwhelming force by the practical problems of occupying its own country.

      Secondly, harassing tactics could prove so expensive that the authorities might be forced to negotiate with the insurgents. This has happened thousands of times in human history-- an inferior force has forced concessions from a superior force because it's cheaper than fighting a war.

      Finally, proponents of the "resistance is futile" viewpoint seem to assume that American soldiers are robots who would feel no misgivings about crushing their own people. I think that's nonsense. Members of our military have grown up with the idea that this is a free country, and that freedom is a good thing. A sizable portion of them would, in my opinion, mutiny-- if asked to kill their own people. These mutineers would provide both military expertise and powerful weapons to the insurgents.

      History provides numerous examples of disarmed people who were tyrannized by their own leaders. Far fewer examples can be found of this happening to armed people. Remember the American Revolution. The idea that the American rabble might defeat trained British troops and their mercenaries was an idea so ridiculous that few in England took it seriously. Until it was too late.

  6. Breaking, entering, and stealing? by shish · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It may break encryption, but entering and stealing? WTF???

    --
    I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  7. No surprise by DrTentacle · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Bunner said he originally posted the code so that people could use it to play their DVDs on the Linux operating system, a practice that was all but impossible at the time.


    Unfortunately, with no large corporate backing at the time, legitimate uses such as this would of course be ignored. When large corporates think they are losing money, the government will come down on their side time after time.

    Let's hope that uses such as this can be viewed as more legitimate now that the OSS movement has some large backers - IBM and the like.
  8. Likewise.... by freeze128 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Gasoline is a tool for ARSON!

  9. Field of Dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you grow them, they will cum.

  10. Just to spite them... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wish someone released a divx of the court procedings.

  11. Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by Sigurd_Fafnersbane · · Score: 5, Informative

    Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD, you need it to be able to decode its content.

    Making a bit by bit copy of a DVD will play flawlessly in any DVD player, no problem. The problem comes when you want to build your own DVD player, then you need DeCSS.

    1. Re:Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by Sigurd_Fafnersbane · · Score: 5, Informative

      One could add that having DeCSS would enable you to rip a DVD and make a un-encrypted copy. In this respect it could be used for circumventing the copy protection. Nevertheless I will risk the claim that 99.9% of the people using DeCSS is doing so to watch DVDs they have purchased for their hard earned cash.

      If you wanted a pirated version it is easier to download one than to make one yourself;-)

    2. Re:Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can copy the vob file to your HDD and play it back with powerdvd or other licensed DVD playback softwares.

      So you could go ahead and trade around the encrypted movie and watch it, no problem.

      Even with a super duper mega unbreakable encryption, you could still framegrab the video and encode it into divx or whatever. You're downsampling and losing quality either way, it's really six of one, half dozen of the other.

      This doesnt stop movie trading, it just prevents the MPAA from collecting CSS licensing for DVD playback devices, and takes away their power to impose region locks on the movies.

      It's a strawman argument to protect their artificial regional targetted marketting.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    3. Re:Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by Poeir · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem here is that consumer DVD burners can't burn to track 0, where the keys to the encryption are kept; so when you burn a bit-by-bit copy, it's encrypted with no key, and therefore useless.

      I don't have any idea what a professional DVD burner would cost.

      --
      Sigs are like bumper stickers.
    4. Re:Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by visualight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If that's true, then why was there ever a problem in the first place? Surely this was brought up so many times back when this first started with 2600. Even the MPAA must realize that DeCSS is not necessary for copying DVD's. So while the MPAA and their bribed politicians are claiming it's a burglary tool in court, the reason they went to court in the first place is probably something else. Like that fact that with DeCSS you can watch a movie on an UNLICENSED player.

      For the MPAA (though they won't say this in court), this has nothing to do with copy prevention, but everything to do with the when, where, and how you watch a film you paid for. Obviously this is important to them or they wouldn't have dreamed up Region Codes.

      How the hell do you get to be a State Attorney General and not have the mental ability to see straight through this?

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    5. Re:Again, you dont need DeCSS to copy a DVD by Alsee · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't have any idea what a professional DVD burner would cost.

      With all of the competing formats it's a real pain to search out the proper drives. You need a drive that can write DVD-R(A). The A stands for authoring. I don't have a price quote on them, but I'm pretty sure these drives can be had for under $1000 now. There are cheap drives around $100 to $200 that claim "authoring", but it's hard to verify whether or not they actually support DVD-R(A).

      Any time you see DVD-R it generally actually means DVD-R(G). the G stands for general. The (G) discs are crippled in that one of the sectors is destroyed. I really hate industry conspiracies that cripple products. There is no reason to ever buy a disk with a destroyed sector over an un damaged disk. Yet no manufacturers sell undamaged DVD-R(G) disks. Everyone buys damaged disks because that's all that's on the shelves.

      You need to get DVD-R(A) disks. These use a different dye that can't be recorded on by "ordinary" DVD burner lasers. They are usually a several dollars a piece because very few are made/sold. I did once come across a dozzen or so on e-bay for under a dollar each.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  12. Slim Jims by L.+VeGas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can buy slim jims at my local auto parts store.

    1. Re:Slim Jims by FroMan · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, we all know slim jims are only used for nefarious purposes. I mean, their advertising is totally reeking of it. "Break into a slim jim" and you have a huge muscular guy who is a wrestler (which coincidentally looks like a thug) who shouts that phrase. I'd have to say slim jims should be illegal. Regular beef jerky for everyone. None of that sausage crap.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    2. Re:Slim Jims by sean23007 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can buy Slim Jims at my local gas station.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
  13. Fuck you, Lockyer. by sulli · · Score: 2, Insightful

    California consistently votes Democratic and we get this? Okay, he's sucking on the teat of Hollywood, but still.

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
  14. So what? by arth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A crowbar, a credit card, a bottle opener and a screwdriver are also burglary tools, but the legitimate uses are real, which is one darn good reason why the tools are available to the public.

    Same with DeCSS -- you can use it to facilitate illegal copying, or you can use it for legitimate purposes, like creating backups, viewing the media on devices lacking a built-in DeCSS equivalent, copy short excerpts you are entitled to for journalistic or educational purposes under fair use, or exercising your public right to copy the works once the copyrights expire.

    1. Re:So what? by corbettw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Same with DeCSS -- you can use it to facilitate illegal copying, or you can use it for legitimate purposes, like creating backups, viewing the media on devices lacking a built-in DeCSS equivalent, copy short excerpts you are entitled to for journalistic or educational purposes under fair use, or exercising your public right to copy the works once the copyrights expire."

      The problem with this is that it can be argued you don't need DeCSS do any of this. Let's look at each one, one a time.

      Creating backups: The MPAA and DVD publishers can argue that you do not have the right to make "backups", which are really just copies of their content. You can't make a "backup" of a book, same thing with a movie or TV show.

      Viewing on non-CSS compliant devices: It can be argued that these devices are not properly licensed, therefore viewing DVDs on them is illegale according to the terms of the contract you have with the DVD publisher (see my previous comment).

      Fair use copying by journalists or students: Most providers will provide at no or little cost (usually just the shipping cost) excerpts of their content for editorial purposes. It may not be as convenient to write to a publisher for excerpts, but since they provide an alternative this use doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

      Copying works after copyright expires: Haa-ha-ha-ha! Copyrights expire?? Yeah, right. <wipes tears of laughter from eyes> Seriously, though, when the copyright on a work expires, the previous holder of that copyright is under no legal, or moral, compulsion to make it easy, or even possible, for you to make copies of the work.

      You might think DeCSS is a harmless tool that only allows people who have legimately purchased content to view that content, and I'm even inclined to agree with that, but the truth is there's no way you can spin it to win in court. Every "legimate" use of DeCSS can be too easily countered in front of the judge.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  15. I love this "logic" by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok, so DeCSS is a "buglary tool", fine. And its not legal to make a "buglary tool"? Riiight. If that's the case, then why stop there? How many languages has this thing been written in? Start outlawing the languages because you can make "buglary tools", hell, why stop there, just get rid of computers! Or wait, I have it! Eliminate all traces of human thought, seems to be working well for the California AG.

  16. Politics, duh. by mjmalone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Lockyer, who's gearing up to run for governor next year, appeared on the side of the DVD Copy Control Association"

    Of course he is on the side of the DVD Copy Control Association, he is on the side of the movie studios... They have deeper pockets and are more likely to win him the election then the technogeeks in silicon valley's burst bubble...

  17. Logical Conclusion by cybermace5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Computers are a tool for burglary, let's ban those.

    --
    ...
  18. Number of daily downloads by BigGar' · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From Yahoo News:
    However, in one indication of the money that is at stake, Lockyer cited estimates that as many as 350,000 movies are illegally downloaded from the Internet every day.

    Does this even sound reasonable?
    If each move filled a cd at 700MB then they're claiming that 245TB of movies are downloaded on a daily basis. That seems a tad high to me.

    --


    Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
    1. Re:Number of daily downloads by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Worldwide?

      Take all the irc channels, ftp pubs, kazaa, usenet. Say 1000 sources with 350 downloads per day.

      It sounds about right. No doubt he also includes legitimate downloads like divx.com in his math.

      Also realize, though that 99% of that is porn. The number gets pretty realistic, conservative even.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  19. CSS doesn't control Piracy by More+Trouble · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you want to "pirate", aka make unauthorized copies, of a DVD, just image it. CSS doesn't hinder you one iota. That's not what it's for. It's for forcing users to use licensed players. And, more over, it's to force users to obey region encoding. Neither of these have anything to do with movie's intellectual property.

    :w

  20. Re:So that's how... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Funny
    those bastards got into my house and stole my Do It Yourself Masturbation Kit (tm).

    They stole your hand? That's got to hurt...

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  21. I've always said: by cavemanf16 · · Score: 2, Funny

    If the RIAA and MPAA don't want to let their movies and music get copied, then simply don't distribute it enmasse to untrusted sources via 8-track, cassette tape, LP, CD, CD-ROM, DVD, etc! It's as easy as that!

    Oh, wait... no one wants to go spend $20 to take themselves and a significant other to the movie theatre for one showing of "The Hot Chick," but they'll rent it or buy it on DVD for the EXACT SAME PRICE for multiple viewings? Guess my idea of "customer value" should have been thrown out a long time ago along with my ideas that are counter-culture to the new socialism: Sue companies to get rich!

    Silly me.

  22. He's a whore for Big Entertainment by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bill "Nightschool" Lockyer is so set on being governor of California that he'll not only carry the Entertainment industry's water, he'll draw it a warm bath and tuck it in bed. Entertainment makes lots of political donations in California.

  23. Its a necessary tool. by haystor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The argument needs to be made that the tool is necessary to provide backups of data as the physical media will deteriorate before the copyright expires. After all, the purchaser has a license to the copyright material its not just physical ownership of the disk.

    Of course the MPAA could argue that copyright expiration is so far in the future that any consideration of post-expiration is ridiculous. And I might agree.

    --
    t
  24. The Boston Strangler Returns by Effugas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone."
    --Jack Valenti, head of the MPAA, in congressional testimony.

    Who's burglarizing who? I buy a car, I get the keys. Ford doesn't have the right to tell me where I can drive; I bought the car, and I bought its keys. If they come in and take the keys away from me, am I not the victim of burlary?

    Too much intellectual property handwaving. Sellers don't have authority over buyer's uses, as some rather racist folks in whitebred towns discovered as their old homes were bought up by upwardly mobile *gasp* minorities.

    --Dan

  25. He must have missed some of his law classes by mocm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    when he confuses copyright infringement with burglary and theft. This is an alarming show of incompetence by this attorney general.
    His incompetence in IT matters could have been excused, but seems to be on the same level.

    --
    ***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
  26. Actually, you got my point exactly... by Nu11.org · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It wasn't meant as a flame against guns. It was meant as a flame against hypocrisy.

    Null

  27. Confusing Burglary with Circumvention by Anti+Frozt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mr. Lockyer seems to be confusing the act of Burglary with that of Circumvention. DeCSS is not a tool for stealing or copying DVDs, but a tool for decoding a DVD for use in a DVD player, i.e. one created for Linux.

    This would be like accusing someone who breaks into a car, but doesn't take anything, of grand theft auto. I think Mr. Lockyer needs to spend a few more years in Law School or at least read over the criminal legislation.

    --
    In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
  28. The irony, as they say, is priceless. by janda · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The advertisement I got when I come into the comments page was for the Intel C++ compilter.

    If DeCSS is a burglery tool, Intel, Microsoft, and other assembler/compiler makers should be charged with "aiding and abetting".

    --
    Karma: Food Fight (Mostly affected by Date Plate).
  29. Not a PIRACY tool at all by horace · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Am I right in thinking that there is no need ot use a tool like DeCSS to copy a DVD? I believe you can just make a bit for bit copy of the DVD which is less likely to alarm the punters.

    There are contantly stories mentioning DeCSS and file sharing in the same breath as piracy. While both may be in conflict with the law they are quite different and everything should be done to explain the differences between the two. ie

    File sharing/DeCSS = personal, between friends, not for profit.

    Piracy = for profit, doesn't use MP3s, doesn't need DeCSS, run by gangsters

    The case against the latter is much stronger and more legitimate. Confusion between the two is very damaging and widespread.

    DeCSS just overcomes a measure designed to reduce free trade in DVDs to allow the maintenance of differential pricing and irritate peole who travel a lot.

    1. Re:Not a PIRACY tool at all by praedor · · Score: 2, Informative

      To VIEW your DVDs on your computer generally requires decryption software to view it. THIS was the main reason DeCSS was written, remember? So that people could watch the legally purchased and owned DVDs on their totally legal and legit linux systems.


      Copying is also legal and legit for backup purposes. Period. This you CAN do with the correct burner in bit-by-bit manner but such are not in general custody of most users. Copying is peripheral to DeCSS in the first place, just FUD-talk by MPAA criminals and their mob lawyers.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
  30. Unrelated comments? by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Funny

    "The program DeCSS is a burglary tool," Lockyer told the judges, adding that the movie studios lose millions of dollars because of piracy over the Internet.

    Do those statements have anythiong to do with each other? how about this one - "Cheese is smelly and horrible", says Bob Blob, adding that millions of people worldwide are starving.

  31. Piracy is such a harsh word by scubacuda · · Score: 5, Funny
    I prefer to call it

    (hand over one eye)

    ARRRRRR-chiving!

    1. Re:Piracy is such a harsh word by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hi, maybe I can help you. I run an offsite backup service, tailored for your DVD backups. If you send me a backup copy of your DVD collection, then I will store it for you, free of charge...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  32. Don't panic. by grub · · Score: 4, Funny


    It's only a matter of time before SCO decides they own the rights to all motion picture technology and tries to sue the RIAA.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  33. Not purchase: license by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2, Informative

    Who's burglarizing who? I buy a car, I get the keys. Ford doesn't have the right to tell me where I can drive; I bought the car, and I bought its keys. If they come in and take the keys away from me, am I not the victim of burlary?


    The industry's point of view (and backed up by law) is not that they've sold you something, but that you've bought a license. Which means that they get to tell you the terms by which you can use it.

    1. Re:Not purchase: license by Effugas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not as backed up by law as you think it might be, or there wouldn't continue to be fights about Right of First Sale that the industry kept losing (i.e. sales of used CDs and DVDs.)

      The industry can think what they want; the moment they put their product in a retail outlet, apply sales tax appropriate for a consumer good, and advertise using slogans like "Buy it today!" (Blockbuster), they sold it.

      Imagine if every purchase you made came with a list of conditions. Imagine how often you'd ignore that list.

      --Dan

    2. Re:Not purchase: license by idlethought · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No license agreement signed, no license agreement visible before purchase. No license agreement. If someone wants to sell me something with additional terms they need to tell me before I buy it. So where on a region 1 DVD does it say "You are only licensed to play this DVD within North America or on a Region 1 licensed DVD player"?

    3. Re:Not purchase: license by Poeir · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey, great! I can't find part I of my Fellowship of the Ring DVD, I think it was lost during the move, where do I send for another piece of media so I can still use my license?

      --
      Sigs are like bumper stickers.
  34. A huge piece of what's wrong with our legal system by reverendG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think that a huge piece of what's wrong with our legal system is the blurring of facts, charging issues with emotion, and obscuring real issues. By saying things like "burglary tool", Lockyer is taking a piece of software and equating it with something the violates the security of an everyday middle class citizen. Admittedly, this is exactly how you should sway a jury in today's legal system. This is also why today's legal system is so fsck'd up.

    The truth of the matter is that DeCSS is no more a burglary tool than a Dremel tool, and a middle class jury, who doesn't sit on media corporation boards, isn't going to give a damn about this case. The only way to make them care is to charge the issue with the illusion that someone is going to be "breaking, entering, and stealing" into their house to abduct their kids.

    Unfortunately, although Lockyer is successfully relating the issue to something that the jury may be able to comprehend, he's also hopelessly obscuring the truth, and most middle class people aren't going to know the difference between a codec and a hole in the ground, so they aren't going to be able to discern the deliberate obfuscation.

    Judges should be educated about technology before trying cases like this, and then prevent counsel from either side from making misleading statements like this. This would greatly even the playing field in the legal arena, and probably stop many of the misinterpretations of the DMCA. If all judges who deal with technology could be educated to at least being literate with the terminology, they would be able to dismiss legal actions that try to use the DMCA in a way that it wasn't intended (if there is such a thing).

    --

    Why should I argue rationally with someone being irrational? I'll just mock them instead.
  35. so now it's a trade secret? by anonymous+loser · · Score: 5, Interesting
    An interesting point from the news.com article:
    During Thursday's hearing, DVD CCA attorney Robert Sugarman told the seven-judge panel that the software is designed "to allow individuals to steal a trade secret and, by virtue of that, hack into a system that protects the trade secrets of motion picture makers."

    How did this go from stealing copyrights to stealing trade secrets all of a sudden? Exactly what part of the DVD is a trade secret? It can't possibly be the encryption, because nobody's interested in that part, they want the content. The content itself is certainly no trade secret, since it is widely distributed and available to anyone with a Blockbuster card.

  36. Re:Foolish analogies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Okay kids, now I'm not a fan of the way IP is handled in the US either. But seriously...DeCSS is not a pencil. It is a tool designed to remove copyright protection from someone's IP.


    Yo... but CSS restricts fair use. Perhaps DeCSS is the slimjim that breaks into your car when you lock yourself out. MM.. make that a rental car even. You don't own the car, but you have the right to enter it (even if you don't have the keys at the moment), so it's hardly breaking and entering. Nor is it stealing when someone uses DeCSS to watch their DVD on a linux box.

    The govt shouldn't be trying to outlaw DeCSS. Everyone I know that uses DeCSS owns DVD's. They give the MPAA money. I, OTOH, prefer to watch movies that I download. I give the MPAA no money. Way to go after the bad guys MPAA. Way to stop piracy.
  37. O/T: Your Sig by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Funny
    EULA? I'm compliant. I made my changes to it and clicked "AGREE".

    I've wondered about that. The old version of windows update allowed you to agree to the EULA displayed in a box before the text had loaded, so I agreed to an empty EULA. Another version used an editable text box for the EULA. I replaced it with text stating that a 51% share in Microsoft Corporation became my property as a result of accepting the conditions, and clicked Okay. This leaves us with two options. For a contract to be legally binding, it must be legally binding for both parties so either EULAs are not legally binding, or I own MS. If the second is true then Balmer, you are so fired.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  38. Re:Good point. by JJahn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unfortunately, both the Democrats and Republicans brought us the PATRIOT act.

  39. copyright by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since DeCSS is an implementation of a mathamatical concept, and is not the ONLY way of ripping data off of a DVD, isn't this a way of squashing one's competitors? Main purpose of DeCSS is the viewing of the DVD, not the copy of it. So, if DeCSS is not permitted by the Courts, doesn't that setup a monopoly? Where is the FTC when you need them. Only way this would be a valid argument if the equation was copyrighted and it was a copyright infringement case. (Which makes me think of copyrighting A + B = C.... Hummmmm)

    --

    In God we trust, all others require data.

  40. Re:Foolish analogies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good post, but it's more muddled than that.

    When I buy a DVD, I've bought a DVD. I haven't licensed it.

    However, I can't play my property on my Linux-based computer. Enter DeCSS, which allows me to use my property in a way I see fit.

    Now, wait for it.. Wait for it.. Here's the problem.

    All this digital crap. Perfect copies and all that.

    Because you can theoretically make a perfect copy of a DVD, and give it to your friend, while still keeping your current property, DVDs don't fit into old school 'property'.

    This wasn't what people were thinking of when laws and precedents were drawn up a century or two ago. Back then, if you bought, say, a can of yams from some farmer, the farmer was confident you couldn't use them and give them to someone else at the same time.

    You could give em to a friend, sure, but you wouldn't have any yams. You *could* try to both utilize the yams, and copy them, but humans are analog and made an imperfect, rather brown and smelly copy of the yams.

    Yeah, I just woke up. Uh, right.

    Let me try to rephrase that. Old School == You couldn't give away your property for free and still hold that property. Thus, no one really cared much if you gave it away. If you wanted that property again, you'd have to buy it again.

    New school == "Here's a copy. Go home and watch it, and I'll watch the original here, and we'll make funny comments to each other over the phone."

    Or some shit like that. Bah, damn the man, eat more broccoli, carrot juice consitutes murder.

  41. Rhetoric by nanojath · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Unfortunately, this is just a typical, if escalated, example of the rhetoric the supporters of intellectual property insanity (read: multimedia conglomerates) are pushing. Try and have a discussion here about copyright without seeing people bicker over the fact that illegal duplication of copyrighted material is not legally "stealing" (in my opinion it's not morally equivalent either although it's in the ballpark and a lot more so if you are bootlegging for money).


    The basic reality, and it does represent a problem for the business models of the mediaopolies, is that the vast majority of people don't take the transgression of illegal, non-commercial duplication seriously as a crime.


    And this is the thing: I think copyright law is a good thing, by and large, it creates a lot of economic activity and can protect and enrich the artist who is wise enough not to give up that right, but the DMCA is a whole other thing. Controlling access to "burglars' tools" is one thing, but this is more like telling me I'm not allowed to go to the hardware store and get a duplicate key made for my own house.

    --

    It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

  42. Re:Foolish analogies by ExRex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Crap.

    CSS has not a whit to do with piracy. Piracy is the bogey man that the MPAA trots out to camoflage its agenda. CSS is about control of when you can watch a movie.

    Without CSS the DVD consortium wouldn't have "officially licensed" decoders. And without those licensed decoders they couldn't carve the world up into zones. Those Intl zones keep a European DVD from playing in the US. More importantly, from the MPAA's point of view, it quashes the possibility of an Int'l gray market. Everybody has to by the disks in their own zone. No one can send them to their relatives "back home" and expect them to play.

    CSS is there purely as a legal manoeuvre: "See, we have encryption!" The real point is to keep as absolute control of every disk and, ultimately, every viewing of that disk as is humanly possible.

    Disney's decaying DVDs are the next step. You can expect the price of regular Disney DVDs to go way up once the decaying ones hit the market.

    --
    The closer you are to the code, the happier you are. - Ancient Geek Proverb
  43. Different Media by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually you can do a bit by bit copy, but not with an off the shelf DVD burner, and not with off the shelf media.

    There are two types of DVD discs (not talking about + and - here) DVD A and DVD G, which stand for 'Authoring' and 'General use' respectivly. The DVD G media is missing a physical ring on the inside of the disc that hold the encryption key. A DVD G drive won't even write the key. If the key is pysically in the wrong place, guess what? the disc won't work.

    Still if they're gonna ban DeCSS (and they shouldn't) they should have a group writting DVD player apps for every platform with a DVD drive.

  44. Hahahahhaha by dh003i · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yea, sure. Just like the EULA's on software. Oh, wait, those are having trouble being upheld in court.

    If the consumer perceives it as being a sale, and isn't told otherwise, then it's a sale. As in, they now own that DVD in the same sense that they own a book they buy.

    Not only is their license invalid, and thus it's just an ordinary sale, like the sale of a book, but their license is also completely unenforcible, which means irrelevant. Encorfing their license would mean violating the privacy of millions of Americans and stepping into their homes, to prevent them from watching DVD's on GNU/Linux. No court is going to allow that. So, in other words, the MPAA's "license" is moot on two terms.

  45. Arrogance, insanity, or both? by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So let me get this straight. I can sit in my home, with a DVD I purchased in full, and by the act of playing that DVD on my Linux computer, I have forcibly invaded the private premises of the media industry and stolen their property?

    We've known for years that words like piracy and theft are intended to have an emotional effect, (unless, of course, groups of Scandanavian teenagers are storming container ships on the open sea and stealing DVDs) but burglary?!

    The only support for the application of the concept of burglary is phrases such as "hacking into mechanisms to protect trade secrets". Does this indicate that the man who may one day be governor of California believes that a copy of a DVD is to be considered the private property and premises of the MPAA?! And what trade secret is violated by skipping the forced commercials at the beginning of the video? It is shocking that someone would walk into a courtroom and have the gall to suggest that a DVD in my own home represents homestead rights and privileges of the MPAA! Regardless of the outcome, I have to wonder about a world where someone would even attempt to make a point so utterly devoid of reason.

    Can somebody please tell me that he is just being stupid? Please, someone post something about attributing to evil that which can be explained by incompetence. I really need something like that to get me through the day.

  46. dumb. by Telastyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't decss do the same thing your dvd player does to decrypt dvds? How can it be an illegal tool then? - unless of course any company making and selling a dvd player is doing something illegal...

  47. Re:Good point. by Dante333 · · Score: 2, Informative

    And the DMCA. It passed 99-0 in the Senate back in 1998.

  48. Yeah! by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Funny
    God damn DECSS! If it weren't for that, all those copies of "The Matrix, Reloaded" wouldn't be on the Internet right now.

    What? er... nevermind.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  49. AAAARRRGGHHH!!! by wurp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can't believe so many people have replied to this, and not pointed out -- DeCSS IS NOT ABOUT COPYING DVDs!!!

    DeCSS is about watching DVDs that I paid for on machines not approved by the MPAA, for example my two linux machines.

    It also gives you back the fair use rights that the movie industry is trying so hard to steal, but the primary use for DeCSS is to watch movies on linux.

    The only way DeCSS even helps DVD copying is that it allows you to do lossy compression you couldn't otherwise do. DVD "copy protection" doesn't in the least keep you from copying a DVD. I can easily copy a DVD and view it without using any unapproved decryptor.

    1. Re:AAAARRRGGHHH!!! by Overzeetop · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, DeCSS circumvents a copy-protection feature of a commerically produced DVD which inadvertantly prevents the end user of a purchased product from a legal use of said product.

      Before you cry foul, the "feature" was intended to prevent the viewing of a DVD on an unauthorized system (one which has no macrovision or region encoding, for example, which is TRUE for region 1 DVDs based on current law, AFAIK).

      Nonetheless, you have purchased a product - not a licence. If your DVD breaks in five years, they will not replace it for a nominal media cost, nor will they send you new media should your system change (OTOH, microsoft used to send you 3.5" floppies if you licenced their software and you got it delivered on CD).

      Once you've bought it, you should be able to do anything you want to with it, as long as the product (physical disc and information therein) stays with you and, arguably, your immediate family. You can even use it to shim up that door frame that's a bit out of whack. Of course, if it doens't work to shim the door frame, you won't get your money back, as it's not the intended use of the product. If , even with DeCSS it doesn't work on your PC - once again - you won't get your money back. If you put it in your DVD player and it doesn't work, you can take it back and get a replacement, because that IS the intended use.

      Try this analogy: you may purchase a lock from Quickset, sit on your living room floor, and pick the lock all you want. You are circumventing their mechanism without a licenced key, but it's your lock and your home. The law has not been broken.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  50. Wrong by Pendersempai · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are no juries in a state Supreme Court. He was making the argument to a justice, who can be expected to understand issues enough not to fall for such rhetoric.

    The "middle-class jury" you so disparagingly reference is not making any major policy changes; they're deciding on findings of fact and leaving the actual legal maneuverings to the trial judge. Beyond that, most sweeping decisions are appealed.

    Judges should be educated about technology before trying cases like this, and then prevent counsel from either side from making misleading statements like this.

    To a large extent, judges ARE educated about technology before trying cases like this. And why should they "prevent counsel from either side from making misleading statements like this" when they could simply RECOGNIZE them as misleading and NOT BE MISLED?

    Yes, the system may have its faults, but the ignorance of your post makes it abundantly clear that you're not one to prescribe fixes.

  51. Copyleft now a defendant?! by Superfreaker · · Score: 4, Funny

    Did anyone notice this:
    "Well the inevitable has happened, Copyleft is now named as a defendant in the DVD-CCA case in California. "

    Just for selling a shirt with the code printed on it?! I can't compile a shirt!

    'Begin lameness
    I know the shirt is soft wear, but this is ridiculous

  52. A lockpick is a burglary too by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And locksmiths use lockpics, or other special devices to open up locations where keys have been lost, etc. But, lockpicks are used by burglars, burglars are criminals and locksmiths use lockpicks, so that must mean that locksmiths are criminals.

    Geeze... doesn't this sound like basic High-School logic courses? Just because once group uses a tool for a purpose does not make the tool criminal, and does not make other groups using the tool criminals.

    Meanwhile... a warrant is out for the inventor of the coathanger, after it was discovered that this device could also be used as a tool for burglarizing vehicles...

  53. California residents READ THIS! by Greg+Lindahl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Go immediately to:

    http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm

    and enter a consumer complaint. I said that I owned a DVD player and some DVDs, and that the California Attourney General's office was trying to prevent me from watching the DVD on my Linux computer.

  54. I was there by legal_tinker · · Score: 2

    My commentary is at Bricoleur.
    -Alex

  55. fugitive fermentation of an individual brain... by gessel · · Score: 2

    The whole question is moot. The DMCA is unconstitutional because it is contrary to the clear intent of the framers in drafting a clause to grant a temporary and embarrassing monopoly to inventors to further the progress of science and the useful arts. Bill Lockyer's comments indicate his ignorance of constitutional law, and the substitution thereof by media industry tripe: DeCSS cannot be "burglary tool" because there cannot be a "theft" of an idea because an idea cannot be owned, not in these United States.

    DeCSS my be illegal, but if such proscription is found to be necessary to promote the progress of science and the useful art, no matter how absurd such a conclusion obviously is, it would be illegal as a guerrilla anti-trust tool, not as a tool of theft.

    Contitutional law is guided by the writings of the framers of the contitution, which illuminate their intent in drafting. Thomas Jefferson was our third president, our first Patent Examiner, and the author of the Declaration of American Independence.

    Thomas Jefferson to Isaac McPherson

    13 Aug. 1813 Writings 13:333--35

    It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new an

  56. What next, rape and murder? by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "breaking, entering and stealing"

    This abuse of words without regard to their meaning (but with regard to emotional effect) is getting alarming. According to them, you can perform B&E in your own house if you do something wrong with a DVD.

    It amounts to "A and B are crimes. B sounds much worse, so let's call all the A crimes B crimes so they look like worse fiends."

    "The program DeCSS is a burglary tool,"

    If this is the case, then I suppose it is a short matter of time before DeCSS is claimed to be a weapon used in crimes of murder and rape.

    If this keeps up, sometime next year, some MPAA or RIAA flack will be the first to accuse a disc pirate of committing genocide.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  57. Bill Lockyer's Contributors by w_mute · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Take this with a grain of salt if you will. But on the list of his 2001-02 campaign contributors:

    RIAA - $15,000.00
    Sony Pictures Ent. Inc. - $5,000.00
    Howard S. Welinsky (Warner Brothers Sr. VP) - $4,000.00
    MPAA - $2,000.00
    Paramount Pictures Group - $2,500.00
    The Walt Disney Company - $2,500.00
    Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation - $2,000.00
    Universal Studios, Inc. - $2,000.00
    Alan F. Horn (Warner Brothers CEO) - $1,000.00
    MGM And UA Services Company - $1000.00

    Note that these amounts are only a small portion of about $12 million US in contributions. The largest portion of contributions comes from other big business (Telecom, etc), law firms, and casinos.

    -Greg

  58. Improper analogies by SpeedBump0619 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are so many metaphors for DeCSS being thrown around that I hardly know where to start. Most of these seem to be subtlely incorrect, not implying the proper levels of ownership and copyright respect. Consider:

    DeCSS:DVD::Crowbar:House
    Close, but no cigar. We presume that for this use of a crowbar to be legal you must own or have rights to access the house. It is unclear which is meant simply because a house bears no resemblance to intelectual property. In other words, this house is real property...it can only be in the hands of one person at a time, that person has the right to access his property.

    DeCSS:DVD::Criminal:Victim
    Not even close. Besides the fact that DeCSS is a process and Criminal is a person, A criminal's victim is presumed to have rights. What rights does a DVD posses? None. As with the previous one, this analogy *also* fails because of the differing nature of intellectual property and IP crimes to real property and real property crimes (theft).

    Hmm, so what *are* the properties of the items with which we want to relate?

    IP:
    the property held by IP owner (the content)

    protection method:
    CSS, a protective wrapper around IP stored within a DVD.

    circumvention method:
    DeCSS, a utility to allow access to "wrapped" IP

    content media storage:
    DVD

    content access method:
    DVD player

    the DVD represents two distinct things. Both the protected media and the right to access it are conveyed by the ownership of a DVD. This is an important distinction. No, i'd go so far as to say it is *the* important distinction. Consider the implications of it being otherwise.

    Consider a theatre. The provision of media and the right to access it are separated (ticket and auditorium). I would expect it to be *clearly* indicated if purchasing the ticket (right to watch) did not also purchase access (access to watch). Wouldn't you? I suspect that ownership under every law in every common law county implies both rights simultaneously. Not doing so probably requires a special contract which specifically retracts the right to access for the property.

    Since I have never signed (nor have I even seen) such a restricting contract governing my ownership of my DVD's, I must assume that my purchase of a DVD includes both the right to watch and access to watch.

    The owners of the IP contained in DVD's are trying to obscure the fact that they want the courts to revoke an implied right. These IP owners want to separate these two rights, placing the right to watch with the DVD and the right to access with the dvd player. Where did I give up my *standard* (IP) property rights which would allow this?

    Lets try a more coherent comparison. We need to find a system where right to access and right to view are separable. I posit that the standard book is a fine example. Suppose:

    I enter a book store, pick up a book, read the first page and decide I'd like to buy it to finish reading it. I go to the counter with the book and pay for it, getting a polite "thank you" from the store owner. When I get home, I go sit in my favorite chair, open the book to find that all the pages are blank. In confusion I search the book for the reading instructions. Finding none I call the bookstore, where I am informed that I can only read the book under a special kind of light. The bookstore just happens to have those lights installed. The store owner kindly offers to sell me a lamp so I can read my book, seeming confused at my annoyance. I however look online and find out that a massive tacheon flux through the book causes the ink to become visible for 24 hours. I do a bit more research and find a diagram showing how to create a tacheon emmitter using duct tape and chicken wire. Now, I can read my book. Have I committed a crime?

    IP:
    the content of the book.

    protection method:
    special ink

    circumvention method:
    tacheon emmitter

    content storage media:
    book

    content acc

  59. Trade secret law by Hamster+Lover · · Score: 2, Informative

    After reading the article (!), I stepped over to Google and looked up the law regarding trade secrets.

    WHAT FACTORS DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING IS A "TRADE SECRET"?

    the extent to which the information is known outside the business;

    the extent to which it is known to those inside the business, i.e., by the employees;

    the precautions taken by the holder of the trade secret to guard the secrecy of the information;
    the savings effected and the value to the holder in having the information as against competitors;
    the amount of effort or money expended in obtaining and developing the information;

    the amount of time and expense it would take for others to acquire and duplicate the information.

    Ok, so how does any of this relate to the dissemination of a trade secret? As near as I can tell from my scouring on the web, reverse engineering a trade secret is a complete defense, meaning if the information was obtained by independant means then there is not much you can do about it. With DeCSS, the information was reverse engineered and became common knowledge so there is no basis for trade secret protection anymore. I don't see how the MPAA has any case here for an apparent trade secret that was legally reverse engineered and the information placed in the public domain.

    What do I know, I am not a lawyer.

  60. Self Serving Language by s4f · · Score: 2, Insightful

    >Lockyer told the judges, adding that the movie studios lose millions of dollars because of piracy over the Internet.
    This entitlement attitude really pisses me off, it has for many years.

    They didn't lose a dime. They may not have made a dime, but they have no right to assume I'd pay for something just because I'd take it for free.