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More on Oregon and GPS-tracked Gas Taxes
An anonymous reader writes "Wired has an update on Oregon's proposed replacement for their gas tax. Currently two candidates are in development, the first a GPS based system that tracks where a car goes to determine the number of miles driven. The other is a odometer-like device. Both would transmit the data to base stations periodically to determine the tax on a vehicle. There was a previous slashdot article."
I don't get it.
A more important reason is that GPS, which can monitor exactly where a car goes within the state and at what times, eventually could be used to implement different tax rates, according to Whitty.
Followed by:
Whitty said there will be no privacy issues because the machines are being designed to store only the number of miles traveled, not the exact locations visited.
The whole thing sound ludicrous to me. I think people would complain more about getting another bill every month more than raising the gas tax a few cents. I understand that voters have turned down an increase in the tax over the past few years, but this seems like a very stupid way to get around it. Every gas station is going to have to have one of these devices installed. Then the pump will have to be changed so that it will give the user a different price depending on if he has a device or not.
Seems like a high cost plan with lower voter approval to me.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
I'd never want to "be tracked" by anyone when I drive. When do they start sending me speeding tickets because I travelled too many miles in too short a time??
Why not just record the odometer reading during the annual inspection, compare it to last year's reading, and charge accordingly? No violations of privacy and it's a HELL of a lot cheaper than installing GPS in hundreds of thousands of automobiles or retrofitting yet another odometer.
I'd gladly mount the thing inside of a cast-iron safe with an extra layer of Mu-metal to make sure it's safe from any "damage" or "tampering".
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
The problem with an odometer soln is what if I live on the border and drive a lot in say, California. I shouldn't be taxed for that?? Also for the GPS based soln, that is going to be quite costly.
Taxing miles driven? Heck no! Tax the gas used so that a person who drives a fuel efficient hybrid gets an INCENTIVE versus folks (like me) who drive gas guzzling Suburbans.
So what happens when someone from northern california, who is not GPS equipped, routienly crosses the boarder to get gas for 20-30 cents cheaper? This seems like it could be a large problem if neighboring states don't implement a similar system as well.
Free Mac Mini
It's already expensive enough and this will do nothing more than just piss off state residents. Every state is in financial dire straits right now and every state is trying to come up with lame brain ideas on how to keep the beloved status-quo safe.
Time to tighten the belts and do what everyone else on the face of the earth does when the money is less than the year before. Time for cuts in either pay or in the entire employment pool itself. No one is garunteed job security, so why does uncle sam try so damned hard to never fire anyone? Ohhh yeah I forgot ... uncle sam is the only stupid employer to still over pention plans.
Lay um off, change hiring practices, or whatever just quit trying to raise my damned taxes.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
Well, as I commented at 9am when I submitted this story myself (which was rejected) the only FAIR way to do this is to take the mileage calculated by GPS, then multiply by a surcharge based on the EPA estimated fuel economy of the vehicle it's registered to, and calculate the gallons of fuel used. Which gets you EXACTLY back to just adding a per-gallon tax in the first place. How farging stupid IS this idea anyway?
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
You WILL get speeding tickets once this system has been 100% deployed.
You WILL face severe jail time for tampering with such devices.
There WILL be mischarges. Some people will be charged for fewer miles than they drove, some for more.
Challenging the "system" will result in being charged with Odometer tampering, as it will be your only evidence against the charges.
Of course, all this assumes they can manage to get all the cars in the state fitted with these devices.
Something tells me the voters of Oregon will be less than happy, and anyone running on a "Stop tracking where I drive" platform will get elected in a landslide.
This whole thing is either political suicide for the people responsible, or a bait and switch so the voters swallow a tax hike without complaining.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
So instead of using the cheap and efficient method of taxing based on usage by taxing the gas they want every citizen to buy an expensive electronics device which is prone to failure, then put up all the additional collection devices?? WTF for? And besides they will then miss revenue from everyone who travels through the state who is not a resident, or will you get one of these GPS units at the state border and have to turn it in when you leave the state? Overall it sounds like stupid solutions to a non-problem. I can only think that they have alterior motives and wish to implement something big brotherish like England has in London. the British have already admitted to using the city center camera network to nab criminals.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
If you want to reduce emissions and raise tax income, you're simply going to have to raise gas taxes. Tracking drivers like this is not only a potential invasion of privacy (there are other situations in which an odometer reading is significant) but also not infallible, especially if you use the odometer method. It's not like someone isn't going to figure out how to cheat the damn odometer.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Does anyone else find it kind of creepy that, as of late, there have been more new and expanded ideas on tracking vehicle travels? (UK Police Expand License Plate Camera Systems)
What an awesome way to build up unanimous support for a tax hike, eh? Man, a few more stories about this and everybody'll be begging to pay more gas tax. Reminds me of when I was a kid and my dad would tell me to stop crying unless I wanted something to really cry about.
The look on driver's face when whacked with insurance surcharges for all of the above: Priceless
It's far too easy to change an odometer reading to rely on this. Odometers are changed all the time when selling used cars. It's not legal, but for a mechanic it's trivial to remove the panel and change it. Also, like others have said, not all states have inspections, or at least not annual.
Developers: We can use your help.
I can see the spam headlines already :) :)
"This super-absorbant shielding will shield you from those harmful radiowaves, emitted by the super-GPS tracker in your new Oregonian car! Easy to install and saves you gas money! Easy to remove for the state inspection."
Hyperom.com
This needs to be defeated, soundly.
sulli
RTFJ.
If you want a gas tax, why not just tax the gas? That has the additional benefit of taxing people more who drive less efficient vehicles. If Oregon wants to impose additional taxes on gas guzzlers, they can do that by a premium on the vehicle tax. And if they want to give certain classes of vehicles a tax break on gas, they can do that via gas deductions (keep the receipts, submit them).
The traditional solution has simply been to raise the [gas] tax rate, but that approach is always unpopular with voters.
Well, and do they suppose voters are going to be overjoyed by not only being charged lots of taxes for driving, but also to have their every move tracked by GPS? The money comes out of their wallet either way.
On the other hand: heavier vehicles tend to both use more gas and cause more wear and tear on roads than lighter vehicles. Thus, a by-mile tax unfairly charges lighter/more efficient vehicles for usage. It can also be argued that programs to counter the collateral effects of burning gas (for example, clean-air initiatives) need a source of funding, for which the gas tax is a good model.
The cynic in me thinks this is popular because of SUVs, and while the plan has it's merits, it is an irresponsible step towards reversing years of progress made in encouraging people to buy less polluting, more efficient vehicles.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
We have a GPS-based system for Trucks here in Switzerland.
Hrshgn
If it's just a straight mileage tax, it's pretty dumb. It's just like the gas tax, but as the article points out, without the incentives to have a fuel efficient car.
To make any sense at all, they'll have to acknowledge that Portland Transportation is VASTLY different than the rest of the state, particularly outside the Willamette Valley. Portland is a city, and has public transportation (not a great system, but it's at least there.) People have alternatives. And it's got a complex city road system.
The rest of the state is mostly rural, with long highway stretches that aren't nearly as expensive to maintain. There aren't bus alternatives most places. Driving 10 miles a day in Baker City is incomparable to driving 10 miles a day in Portland, in terms of impact on the roads.
They allude in the article of having the ability to tell where you are, so charge more for being part of the downtown rush hour vs. on a logging road that sees 10 cars per day. If they use it, they can possibly have the semblance of a fair system. If not, it's business as usual, where the rest of the state pays for things that mostly benefit Portland.
(I grew up in Corvallis. There's real traffic during home OSU games, for the 4th of July fireworks, and when the Jehovah's Witness convention is in town. That's it. And that's the 4th largest city in the State.)
Oregon's in such a financial free-fall right now, though, that anyone that can come through with a way to generate revenue, quickly, will get seriously listened to. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see a badly written new tax fly through without being scrutinzed.
-- Kate
It's ridiculous to tax the number of miles traveled and not the amount of gas consumed. It's the gas that causes the environmental damage and the huge cost to society. If a massive SUV which guzzles gas and a small fuel efficient car traveled the same distance they would be taxed equally, basically penalizing the person who bought the more environmentally friendly car! This is definitely a bad idea because the idea of a gas tax is to curb excessive gas consumption.
So to review: Traffic Tickets are a selectively enforced tax which will die if they're enforced uniformly against the entire population.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Wouldn't this only tax the residents of the state rather than everyone else who travels through the state enjoying our tax free gas? This is a silly control freak answer that would only cost the residents of the state more money. Unless we charge a toll for all of the out of state drivers coming travelling thru the state. Maybe even make them rent the GPS unit. Other questions would be who else would get to see the data gathered from the GPS system? Your insurance company? Too many holes in this system, I personally prefer privacy!
Just make an aluminum-foil hat for your car. Seems easy enough to me. :-)
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
Why? If you want to collect taxes based on miles driven, do the "odometer reading at license renewal" thing. Better yet, pick a substance like say, gasoline, that is roughly proportional to distnace driven and tax it. Wow! Why use a techincal solution when a simple one works? "We don't want to raise gasoline taxes by 2 cents - the voters might get angry! No,wait, let's make them all install $100 devices with a $100 install fee and annual certification fee instead!" What happens if the power to the device dies? Would a simple blown fuse or snipped wire save you hundreds of dollars? (What about out-of-state drivers?) Will it be a criminal charge to be driving with a blown accessories fuse? Will my pocket GPS scrambler save me hundreds of dollars? Maybe that'll be an add-on feature of new radar detectors... Will the petroleum consumption police require you to fill out a form if you fail to use your car in any 3-month period, certifying that you did in fact park it? Better yet, would the GPS prove you were driving on municipal roads so Oregon has to share these revenues with the appropriate city and county governments? Can I open a shortcut across my property and get a state subsidy for it? My driveway needs repaving... maybe I can set up GPS braodcast simulator that tells any nearby vehicles they drove on my private road. Truly a "Galactically stupid" idea.
Tracking miles driven by cars isn't the right solution to calculate gas consumption taxes. Assuming privacy rights can be trampled on freely, the right solution for that is having a little transmitter in the car that is read when the car comes to a gas station to refuel, the gas pump logging the amount of gas delivered for each car. That penalizes SUV users and heavy drivers, and gives a break to low-consumption cars and people who don't drive much.
Tracking miles driven by cars is really a solution to figure out road maintenance taxes. For an overall taxe rate per car, the standard odometer can be logged by mechanics at the yearly car checkup and reported to the authorities. No need for exensive computer equipment to do that, just a law to force mechanics to report their findings. If the state wants a better granularity, like who uses the best roads and how much (to know which roads require more maintaining, and to tax users of good roads more), then I guess an onboard GPS would be useful. Otherwise, I reckon it'd be overkill.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Gas tax is the easiest, simplest, error-free way to generate revenue.
Doing a GPS or other device-required method introduces points of failure, ways to cheat the system, etc. etc.
"People" using "unnecessary" quotes should be "shot".
ODOT's website plainly states that there will be NO RETRO FITTING on cars. [pdf format]
Cool! I can drive for free in Oregon and get cheaper gas. I sure won't have one of those dumb devices in my car, as I live in California. NOW JUST IN: The State of California makes it illegal to buy gas in Oregon, as too many Californias were crossing the border to avoid the excessive California gas tax. Suggested remedy: Install GPS in all vehicles and calculate miles driven. DOH!
The gas tax already encourages density. The property tax also does this.
Drive car A. Siphon gas from Car A to car B. Refill Car B at station. Repeat. or Fill Car A, the gas truck, with enormous quantities of fuel. Sell fuel to cars B, C, D, and E Two Blocks away at your house. Repeat. This is just silly.
The people of Oregon, in their infinite wisdom, have repeatedly rejected a gas tax increase. The government tries various methods to get around this rejection.
Let's put it another way. The people have decided the government already has enough money and refuse to give them more. The government thinking up new and innovative ways to screw citizens out of their hard earned money ignores the basic fact that they were already told no.
No means no, damn it!
Make sure taxes collected for a specific reason are spent for that reason and not put into the general fund. I bet the gasoline tax was implemented to provide the funds to maintain the roads and highways. How much is collected? How much is actually spent on road maintanence? Ask your elected officials to account for the missing money.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Portland sits right on the border of Washington and Oregon. Because of lower property prices & taxes, a lot of people live in Vancouver, Washington and commute to Portland every day...Any Portland residents will know how I-5 looks every afternoon with the thousands of WA residents heading back across the border. This seems unfair because WA will not / may not have the system and so WA residents will purchase gas in OR where it will finally be cheaper, and yet probably not pay taxes on it. Unless, of course, they have a default rate, in which case, we're back to the simpler system of just having a flat rate on the gas to begin with...
Also, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but is anyone considering the costs of administering this system? That may well eat up all of the [anticipated] increased revenue.
On your second point, I wonder if the truckers unions and lobby have anything to do with this. Presumably they would be against any kind of gas tax since this has to be one of their chief operating expenses. And I would think that an 18 wheeler would put a lot more wear and tear on the roads than even the biggest SUV. But with the GPS system, they could base their operations out of another state even though they might travel extensively within Oregon.
I'm not that familiar with the intricacies of interstate trucking, so maybe this isn't a feasible option anyway, but just a thought.
In this case, it sounds like somebody got a GPS for their birthday and now they're looking for problems to apply it to. Along comes the "gas tax by any other name" and well gee, using a GPS would be the perfect solution.
Furthermore, removing the gas tax will lower the price of gas, which will encourage more consumption. Which means more trucks and further reductions in average efficiency of vehicles purchased each year. Trucks are heavier, and create more wear per mile driven on the roads when compared to lighter, more fuel-efficient cars.
Why would you create an incentive for people to drive more in heavier vehicles if you are having problems keeping roads repaired? It just makes no sense.
Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?
It seems to me that the GPS idea is part of Oregon government corruption. The idea cannot work for the reasons mentioned at the end of this article: Airplanes are safe, but laws often crash. Why are they proposing something that cannot work? Probably someone is using the idea to make money.
For more about problems in the government of Oregon, see this: Complicated methods corrupt Oregon government. Basically, people who want to use government to make money have found the perfect way to prevent negative court judgements: The Judiciary in Oregon is not allowed enough money to do its job. Try calling the Oregon Court of Appeals in Oregon on any Friday and you will find that they are closed because they don't have enough money to stay open 5 days a week. With a limited Judiciary, those who want corruption can accomplish almost anything.
The corruption uses other methods, some of which are mentioned in the articles.
Yes it is illegal in Oregon for the average consumer to pump their own gas, because they might spill a little as opposed to the highly trained pumping engineer that you meet at your gas station every fillup (who loves spilling gas down the side of my car)
Lets see, adding custom hardware into my car (500 dollars) adding a reading mechanism to each pump (500 dollars). Ammount that I pay in gas taxes every year (10K miles, 50/MPG, 200 gallons) probably about $70. So it will take about 10 years for them to even break even (or maybe worse, make me pay for the upfront costs through higher car/gas prices)
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
Oregon has several problems when it comes to gas. One which I'm sure nobody has bothered to consider when thinking up this new idea. By charging Oregonians for the amount driven, people from outside the state are immediately excluded from the tax. All the sudden people who commute in to Portland from Vancouver, stop paying taxes in Oregon. This is the same way in which we (in Oregon) get screwed by not having a sales tax (made up for with huge income tax); only Oregonians get taxed for resources used by everyone.
Also, if they wanted to offset the hit from an increased gas tax, they could consider firing all the pump jockies and letting us pump our own damn gas. Sure the occasional backwoods hick or yuppie dumbass will end up lightimg him/herself on fire, but if it saves us money, isn't it all for the better?
A cheap handheld consumer GPS has an accuracy of about 15 feet... but will show movement even smaller than that. Meaning: You can't trust the exact coordinates more than 15 feet, but relative to each other in an area, the coordinates are more accurate.. if you move 5 feet west, the gps will usually show yuo 5 feet west of wherever it said you were the previous time... it's not like the numbers jump around a 15 foot radius while yuo stand still.
As the other poster said, you can see which lane you used on the highway. I can tell if I'm in my front or back yard.
What happens if you run out of gas and need to fill a can up or somthing ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
precisely why the OR gooberment doubled the registration costs for ZLEV cars, because they don't "pay their fair share" or gas taxes...
When the Oregon legislature first tried to balance the state budget, they made public announcements that schools and police were to face heavy cuts unless a tax increase was immediately enacted (as one writer put it, "15,000 state employees, and the 200 you choose to fire are cops?").
Of course, being scared of their own tails, they couldn't just vote in a tax increase; they put it to a ballot measure. People being what they are, the tax increase was voted down, and the budgets got cut.
The prevailing opinion among people I've talked to is that it was a scare tactic: tell horror stories so that voters will be afraid of NOT increasing taxes, then let them do it, thus avoiding any responsibility for the increase. I never thought of it before, but maybe this round of idiocy is the same sort of thing.
Hamster
What happens when they stop using gasoline to power vehicles?
"OK, we won't track your every motion and create a database of every place you've ever been. We'll just charge you twice as much for gass."
To which the population replies "Thank God."
My question is, if the whole planet now sounds like Ford Prefect is somewhere in the area, where's my electric thumb and my copy of that book with the "Don't Panic" cover?
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA