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Interview With Ximian's Nat Friedman
Sheepish writes "OSNews features a long and interesting interview with Nat Friedman, of Ximian fame. Nat tells all and talks about the upcoming Ximian Desktop 2 and its differences from Gnome 2, the difficulties of developing the MS Exchange Connector, Linux as a desktop, Mono and plans for Gnome integration, the hundrends of OpenOffice.org changes made to make OOo like a Gnome2 app, and how Ximian feels... about Apple's business. Four screenshots of Ximian Desktop 2 are included too."
Quote: "- Uses MSFT file formats by default, reflecting the reality of most of the documents you will receive. No longer tells you you're about to lose all your data when you save in an MSFT format. "
I'm pleased that XD2 is striving for complete UI consistency. This is something I've always felt was lacking in the overall user experience for linux. Having a coherent set of human interface guidelines ala Apple's materials for OS X can do nothing but help.
I was left salivating after viewing the screenshots and reading about the far reaching changes that were made, especially integrating OpenOffice with the rest of the desktop.
And they're looking into migrating several hundred thousand desktops, especially in Europe. Damn!
Goodbye Bluecurve, Hello Ximian Desktop!
Newsfollow.com
Why is Ximian not supporting Slack?
When KDE is already on version 3
obviously newer and better.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
Well I gotta be honest and say.. from the shots I have seen, and from what I have read, I can't really see what the Ximian Desktop offers Red Hat users over the superb BlueCurve front end on the most recent versions.
Antialiasing, clean & well organised style, custom icons, and specially developed management tools. I really really rate what Red Hat have done, and I could never see myself paying for something like Ximian Desktop to replace BlueCurve.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
It's kinda strange... OSS with it's release-early-release-often idea almost makes it seem like improvements come so slowly, because they flow in a discrete trickle rather than the major leaps that come much further apart (emphasis on "seem")... Ximian's been working behind a black curtain for so long, it makes XD2 seem like such a gargantuan improvement...
Though significantly delayed, XD2 was released when Ximian got everything right... and they have... finally I have a desktop environment that I can proud to show to my consulting customers as a viable option...
-jag
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
Hopefully the week of the June 9, they will also release the complete source code to everything they use to build XD2.
I have 1 Gentoo system at home and 2 Built from scratch machines, and it would be soooo cool to have a ebuild for Gentoo, or at least a Garnome type build script. Especially for their OpenOffice.org version.
After reading this interview I really Can't wait.... Even tried their ftp site, but the XD2 directory is not browseable by an Anonymous Coward!
I recall back when Ximian first started to come out with some slick looking stuff they were much nicer, asthetically speaking, than any linux distro out there. With Bluecurve and the maturation of Gnome 2.xx it seems the need for Ximaina is greatly diminished.
By the looks of things here I see no need to upgrade from RedHat 9.0 with the exception of getting Evolution 1.4. (And actually if it's faster than the butt slow 1.2 version that would be a good upgrade, now that I think about it.)
Quote: KDE has way more options (the clock properties dialog has five tabs!),
Actually it has 6 in KDE version 3.1: General, Timezones, Plain Clock, Analogue Clock, Fuzzy Clock.
For some reason I find that amusing. If you're going to drop some FUD, at least get your facts straight.
I'm guessing 3.2 will have 12 or 24 depending on it's mode.
Just wondering, but has Ximian made a KDE version of their new industrial theme?
Ya see, the beauty of the KDE/Gnome thing is that some KDE apps you can't live without, and some Gnome/GTK apps you can't live without. Gaim and K3b/Kmail spring to mind right off the bat.
I like KDE themes like QTCurve and Keramik/Geramik because it makes the GTK/Gnome/KDE applications look the same. If using this Ximian desktop means that my KDE apps will look out of place, then it doesn't really seem that appealing.
A theme like this seems like it'd be simple to do, so I'd be very curious to see if Ximian has really done a complete job of it.
Sure, even older.
Ximian Desktop 2 is not a complete distro. It's software for a variety of operating systems.
It is (or will be, upon release) available for download free-of-charge. Source is/will be available for all open/free components. Patches are being and will be submitted upstream to maintainers.
Purchasers ($99) get extras including 3rd party (proprietary) software, PLUS 30 days support, PLUS a year's Red Carpet Express high-speed updates.
a.
I wasn't lying, but I wasn't very clear either. What I meant was that GNOME was the first project to have a documented set of human interface guidelines, *and* to have a usability team that enforces those guidelines across the desktop. This has given us a pretty high level of UI consistency, which I think shows. (Now, if this happens to be wrong, I'm still not lying -- I'm just wrong, but I don't think that I am :-).
With all due respect, I strongly disagree with what he says about OSX. I say this because it justy so happens i switched to OSX yesterday. Ive used Linux for years and used gnome, window maker and finallys ettled with kde 3.1. It was so annoying doing all of thw software updates all the time (new GLibc, new libpng, new qt aaagh!) that i swallowed my pride and looked into OSX.
guess what? I got a G3 266 mhz 256 mb ram 4 gig hdd for $100 off ebay. hook that to my vga monitor with an adapter ($10) and get jaguar wt my univ store for $69 and i have spent $180 on a new OSX desktop and $20 for teh shipping total $200.
One day, just one day and i have no desire to even use linux on my desktop anymore. The consitency of the interface, commercial softweare support (Office, explorer etc) and the ability to use X and all my favorite linux apps with fink. And bet of all no RPM hell, no new library or dependecy almost everyday.
What really pissed me off was when the new version of some software that is 2megs or so (say gaim) requires a new perl , gtk, glibc and X windows! sheesh. it was so hard to keep the same desktop (mandrak 9.0 in my case) since the stuff would be outdates so quickly. Even if iam a CS major.. i dont like constaly updatiung my OS for every new app and no i dont want to compile everything
That is why i switched and that is thereality of using linux . The biggest reson why people will still use windows --linux is fucking hard to use and maintain on the desktop.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Q: How much does Ximian Connector cost?
A: Ximian Connector software is available as a free download. However, Ximian Connector will not operate without a valid Ximian Connector license file, which may be purchased at the Ximian store. Individual Ximian Connector license files will be sold for $69 dollars/seat. 10-license and 25-license packs will retail for $599 and $1449, respectively. Volume purchase agreements are available. Contact our Sales department for more information on education and corporate programs.
Some interesting claims made for Mono:
/. a number of times, ActiveX, CORBA, DCE etc. have all made claims like this and have met with limited success.
.NET: http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet/FAQ.ht ml.
.NET, managed code cannot generally use classes implemented in Python.
.NET would certainly be doable and useful - but it would also be a lot more work than the current approach."
1. Mono can be the universal component hub, allowing you to use C objects from Python, C++ objects from Perl, and so on.
We've certainly been here before. As has been pointed out on
First there is the inefficiency introduced by constantly translating data (where equivalents exist at all), second the impedance mismatch of languages with quite different call models.
Yes, there's some capability here for scripting code written in low-level languages, but that's quite a different thing from claiming to provide universal, peer-level interoperability.
Note that this isn't the same argument that says that bytecode level interworking is doomed - one is still limited to a rather C#-like subset of features, just as one is to a Java-like subset in a JVM.
Nat goes on to give an example of how Mono is changing things:
This is possible because C#'s language features make it trivial to automatically bind C# objects into other languages. Check out Python Scripting for
OK, let's see what Brian thinks this new Python Dotnet is bringing to the table:
" While a solution like Jython provides "two-way" interoperability, this package only provides "one-way" integration. Meaning, while Python can use types and services implemented in
A Jython-like solution for
Hardly a ringing endorsement of Mono here. Perhaps the last reference will be the proposition that we can't refuse?
Nat says:
There's also a Mono-based JavaScript compiler in the works (MS already has one, of course).
Doesn't the Java world have one of those too? Yes, in fact, it's had one for five years. Rhino is a full Javascript compiler, interpreter and debugger, released by Netscape in April 98 and still developed under the Mozilla banner. Not some also-ran knock-off here, but something used in quite significant products such as the Resin web app server.
So, draw your own conclusions about what real new capabilities Mono will bring to the OSS world.
And don't forget that there is at least one company that will definitely gain from this all this free marketing and "innovation".
I never said there is something wrong with Red Hat, et.al., making a buck from Free Software, you just ASSUMED that. And I doubt you have had had much experience with the "real world" you pretend to know about if you haven't seen what happens to anyone that gets in bed with MicroSoft. Sure, Bill & co have played nice so far with the Mono fools, but we all know that the moment it becomes a "standard" they will be squashed. If you think any differently then you are living in some fantasy world and should get a clue about what Mono is REALLY all about... Miguel taking yet another shortcut ... but this one leads right to hell...
Now will they include baysan filtering in evolution or will I be forced to use tricks to route the mail around in circles? If MSN and netzero can use spam filtering as a mainstay of their advertising and it makes a lot of big press here and is able to be integrated into mozilla, I think it would prove worthwhile to have it integrated in Evolution as well.
I do security
I was more shocked they're using Emacs.
No wonder they don't want to spend a lot of time there.
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
But there was a serious point in there - that Ximian are encouraging people to risk cloning a substantial portion of Microsoft's IP.
Don't forget that Miguel and co. have never been particularly clear about why they are doing this, and what precisely was wrong with established OSS efforts such as Parrot, Guile, Kaffe etc.
What many people have noticed is that
a) baiting MS makes headlines
b) Miguel and co. were too late to appoint themselves leaders of the other projects
We don't have a fundamentally new file selection dialog, but we added some quickbuttons to the stock Gtk one that jump you to your desktop, documents or home directory. This makes it a bit easier to use.
Owen Taylor is allegedly developing a new file manager in Gtk 2.4 that should be much easier to use, and that we expect to see adopted across GNOME very quickly.
From reading the article (for once, I actually did) it seems like Ximian are aiming at the corporate market, rather than home users. Corporates couldn't care less about gaming support, since if you're on one of their machines, you're not being paid to play games.
With Ximian you get a consistant desktop, with an office suite that's very usable - I work for a charity that does basic computer training, and we're the process of moving from MS Office to Open Office (hacked to look like as much like MS as we can), arguably the best PIM for Linux, and for the larger types software distribution from a central location.
I'll certainly be taking a look at XD2 once it's released.
You are jealous that your sister is looking at other guys?
Creepy +1!
Unfortunately, the casual reader might gain the impression from your post that Microsoft have made the whole of Dotnet public (around 1200 C# classes) rather than just C# and the CLR (around 150 classes).
I'm sure you will be as anxious as I am to clarify the true position, perhaps by mentioning Steve Ballmer's comments from March last year where he states that MS holds patents on Dotnet technologies and that free implementations will not be allowed, or by comparing the MS position with that of Sun and Java, which, under the JSPA explicitly permits free implementations.
I heard it was dying =)
Oh dear, are you sure you were concentrating before?
.NET development platform is essentially a new foundation for program development that gives Microsoft a room to grow for the coming years.
What we are referring to here is the Dotnet Framework. Not just C#, not just the CLR or CLI, but the whole platform - the APIs that people write real applications on. Nobody is disputing that for Mono to be useful, it has to go beyond what has been made public and clone those parts that are private and patented.
The word "liable" is well chosen regarding Mono's position with MS - and those using it will be in just the same position legally as those creating it.
The situation with the Java Platform (to include J2SE, and J2EE if you like) is quite different. Not only are there already multiple vendors and dozens of separate implementations, but the legal position has been set forth in the JSPA (that link again, for the hard of memorizing). No equivalent exists for Dotnet whatsoever.
Thanks for the link regarding Mono's rationale. I encourage everyone to visit this page and evaluate the reasons stated. I'm afraid that when I looked I could only find the following rather contradicatory statements:
There is not really a lot of innovation in this platform: we have seen all of these concepts before, and we are all familiar with how these things work.
What makes the Common Language Infrastructure development platform interesting is that it is a good mix of technologies that have been nicely integrated.
The
Now, regardless of whether the Mono people think that Dotnet is or is not an innovation, I think we are obliged to observe the rationale for their enthusiasm is less than one sentence long and rather vague. Given that Perl and Java could equally well be described as an interesting mix of technologies, that they were around a long time before Dotnet, and that the Mono proponents themselves admit that there is not a lot of real innovation in it, it is very hard to see how this aspirational fragment can add up to a convincing manifesto.
Regarding your analysis of other open source VM efforts, I again find myself unable to discern nuch of a coherent argument in your statements, despite your earnest entreaties. You appear to be against a multiplicity of similar efforts where Perl and Python are concerned, but apparently for multiplicity where Java, Mono and Dotnet are concerned.
I'm not particularly disappointed that you are unaware of original, innovative and preexisting OSS work in this area - the problem is that the Mono developers are unaware of them too, and prefer to subject themselves to Microsoft's leadership rather than work with those that share more compatible goals and methods.
Aside from multiple distribution support, is anyone taken aback about how many companies are essentially peddeling what an admin can do with apt-get/cfengine (with updates to cfengine configs via rsync/ssh) with Debian?
:) Since I follow woody and roll in some of my own updates alongside other users updates, its quite easy to have a 'modern' gnome2 system that has been updated against major security issues.
I too support hundreds of machines, and I find my worst experience is making sure i've got a decent, up to date for bleeding edge kernel handy and a discover database to match it. Nevermind X.
Having a nice automatic installer (autoinstall, heavily hacked, ask for source if you care) and good remote mass administration tools are the two things that make my life easier.
Be weary of supporting these companies, I just don't think they have many peoples best interests in mind if you have a clue handy. Ximian is supporting propretiary file formats (doc!) now, redhat is selling 2 year development cycles (wasn't that a debian complaint a ways back?), and many of them are only selling their 64-bit installers for nearly $1k a pop.
-- dieman - Scott Dier
Slashdot subscribers get to check stories for typos and dupes.
I think the Open Source business model needs more work...
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
File selector dialog. Not file manager. The wrong word came out :-).
While Miguel seems to have developped into a fine programmer, I cannot help but feel very uneasy about someone whose dream once was to work for Microsoft actually leading one of the two main desktop efforts on Linux. Already, the gconf system reaks of Windows register...
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Then remove the "./" entry
Actually, the "./" entry isn't entirely useless (though it is very poor UI design... Motif has a lot to answer for!). Double-clicking on it rescans the current directory, which is useful on occasion - if you've dropped some new files in and want to open those with your app.
Removing it, and replacing it with a "Refresh" button is what's needed.
As far as options, the thing that pisses me off about Gnome is that I can't or its very difficult to change settings, which just pisses me off and I log back into KDE.
Plus, whats up with Gnome's file save/open box? That thing needed work 3 years ago...
That said, XD1 was awesome, and I'm definitly going to give XD2 a try, as soon as they have a Mandrake build.