Ostrich Lessons In Oregon?

and if you act now.... by sweeney37 · 2003-07-01 00:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

Get 'em hooked early, then they'll never be able to stop using it.

Mike

Re:and if you act now.... by garcia · 2003-07-01 00:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Please don't take this as a troll, I am just trying to go with the other side...

Why shouldn't they be hooked early? Do you think that businesses are just going to magically stop using MS Office in the near future?

So we are going to have these kids learn Linux and OpenOffice or maybe StarOffice or maybe KOffice and they are going to go about their daily duties with those applications...

They get to an interview... "Do you have experience with MS Excel, MS Word, and MS Access?" "No sir, but I have used Kblah, OOBlah, and StarBlah."

I would LOVE to see interviewers more tech. savvy and understand what those applications are. I doubt that day will come anytime soon. They are just too entrenched.

I think using Linux in schools is a great idea. I also think that MS offering hardware/software to schools is also great. Whereever they can save the money that I end up paying in the end is good for me.

Just my .02
Re:and if you act now.... by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-07-01 01:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

They've been doing that as long as they've owned the market. It's not working any more, i.e., it's getting hard for Microsoft even to give Windows away. For educators, Windows just isn't nearly as good a value proposition[1] as Linux.

[1] Yes, I know that's PHBspeak. It's also intensely ironic.

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Re:and if you act now.... by mmol_6453 · 2003-07-01 01:19 · Score: 5, Interesting

When I was in elementary school (K-6), my schools used Apples and Macs. (Remember that Apple did the whole "charity" thing once, too.) I don't think it had much of an impact on the students. It didn't have any affect on me or anyone I knew. The only reason I'd get a Mac would be to get a piece of that IBM's 970 processor.

Unfortunately, I expect the same will be true of exposure to Linux. Most of the benefits that schools will see in Linux systems will come from the administrative end. To get exposed students interested in running the platform at home, there'll have to be computer clubs and activity groups that take advantage of the benefits of Linux.

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Re:and if you act now.... by thornist · 2003-07-01 01:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

In South Africa they've already done this. In fact the story goes that the Department of Information were making very positive noises about a state pro-open source policy a couple of years ago, and then just a couple of days later Gates had flown out to meet Mbeki and Mbeki was announcing the "generous" gift of free MS software for all South African educational institutions (don't have time to seek out the reference for this story right now).

In South Africa the issue is more than just getting people hooked to the company. Bigger than that for us is the question of being dependent on the US for our IT infrastructure. What happens if South Africa falls into disfavour with the mighty America and we cease to be able to get software or support, but all our data is tied into MS proprietary formats.

Open source is a question of sustainability and survival for countries like mine.
Re:and if you act now.... by SatanicPuppy · 2003-07-01 01:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

Heh. You're taking exactly the wrong tack. Computer literacy is not about which software you know. We deployed StarOffice at a company and they cried and cried and cried because it wasn't MS, nevermind that, when they had been using MS they had to share 5 computers with MS on it. (Gov't agency; get audited all the time.) These people were complete computer idiots. I mean their big problem with the Linux desktop was that they didn't like the fonts.

Turn this around; take an applicant who's just coming in for a job that requires a spreadsheet, a wordprocessor, and some sort of presentation software. What's going to impress you? Someone who just knows MS Office 2k, and gets hysterical when you give them Office 97 or Office XP. Or someone who has a good grounding in something a little different. "Have you ever used Word?" "No, but I've used Writer, Abiword, Islandwrite, and Emacs." Shows you've got flexibility, and that you've done something more than use yer grandmothers computer."

Just my opinion.

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Re:and if you act now.... by tuffy · 2003-07-01 01:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why shouldn't they be hooked early? Do you think that businesses are just going to magically stop using MS Office in the near future?

If the workforce knows an alternative to MS Office, prefers an alternative to MS Office and can get the same job done just as well using an alternative to MS Office, businesses are going to magically use an alternative to MS Office.
Seen WordStar lately?

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Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Re:and if you act now.... by Delphiki · 2003-07-01 01:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

I really don't think it will make too much difference one way or the other as far as getting a job, as long as it's presented right. If you're applying for a non-technical job where you would be using MS software, I doubt they would be impressed by the fact that you knew non-MS alternatives, though I doubt they would hold it against you too much as long as you said that you pointed out that you had experience in very similar programs. On the other hand if people only know open source alternatives and go into a job interview and start trying to convert the interviewer that's probably not going to help them.
Ideally I think schools should have a variety of platforms for students to learn on, including Windows, Linux and OS X. Flexibility means being able to work on a variety of platforms, not just being able to work on a non-MS platform, after all.

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Re:and if you act now.... by tambo · 2003-07-01 01:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

>What's going to impress you? Someone who just
>knows MS Office 2k, and gets hysterical when
>you give them Office 97 or Office XP. Or
>someone who has a good grounding in something a
>little different. "Have you ever used
>Word?" "No, but I've used Writer, Abiword,
>Islandwrite, and Emacs."

Two comments - one you'll sort of like, and one you won't.

Bitter pill first: Familiarity counts. Any application beyond Calculator or Solitaire requires a learning curve - regardless of platform. Even if you know Writer, Abiword, Islandwrite, Emacs, StarOffice, and MS Word, using mail-merge in WordPerfect will still be harder for you (the first few times) than for someone who's only used WordPerfect.

Now here's a helpful suggestion, though rarely-seen on Slashdot: It's most impressive to have as broad a background as possible.

Which of the following candidates would you choose for web admin:
1) The stodgy Microsoft guy who insists on using IIS because that's all he knows; or
2) The wild-haired Linux guy who launches into a tirade when you mention not using Apache; or
3) The guy who has solid experience with both, knows their relative strengths and weaknesses, can provide an expert opinion on which is better suited to your needs, and is comfortable developing for the platform that you choose?

David Stein, Esq.

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Computer over. Virus = very yes.
Re:and if you act now.... by 1u3hr · 2003-07-01 01:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

They get to an interview... "Do you have experience with MS Excel, MS Word, and MS Access?" "No sir, but I have used Kblah, OOBlah, and StarBlah."
Wrong answer, Say "Yes".
If it's a technical job requiring you to have deep knowledge of VBA macros, of course you actually have to study it. Otherwise, using the K* and OO gives you almost exactly the same experience. If lying bothers you, (and this is trivial on the scale of job interview lying), spend an afernoon playing with someone's Windows PC and create and print a few documents, add up your shopping list, sort it alphabetically. You now have all the experience you need to do 99% of real world MSOffice work.
You don't have to "study" MS Office for six years to learn how to write a memo, or add up a column of figures. I worked it out, the closest I came to a computer at school was a pocket calculator.
On your resume, you write "experienced with MS Office and Linux office software". Or reverse the order if you think they'd prefer to hear that. You now have one more ability that may help you get the job.
Re:and if you act now.... by TrekkieGod · 2003-07-01 01:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

heh...if you read the post, you'd understand the point was showing that the person had flexibility.
I laugh at the fact that they actually have courses to teach people how to use word processors and the such, and then I wake up from geek world and take a good look at my parents. I've never had anyone "teach" me how to use word, excel, or anything else, but when I had to use it, I learned it on the go, and wasn't inneficient at it either. To any computer literate person, the skill to figure out a tremendouly easy gui is just intuitive. "hmm...I want a table of contents...hey, look...insert TOC...hmm...it filters through heading types...I guess all I need to do is set up my headings as I type, then click the right radio buttons for the ones that I want to show up in the toc"

If you hire an employee that has experience in a system that makes you be able to think (ie, linux, where you need to figure out how to get things to work--and thus learn how to figure things out), you'll not only get an employee who will be able to figure out word xp in no time flat, you'll get an employee who won't be complaining that he can't do his job because he doesn't know how to use the new, upgraded "word l337" or whatever mycrosoft thinks their new cool name should be.

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Re:and if you act now.... by the+gnat · 2003-07-01 02:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

100% of the interviewers asked "do you know MS Word, MS Excel, and MS Access."

So fucking what? Lie through your teeth, and tell them "oh, yeah, sure." You'll never be put into a situation where they're testing your prowess with the Word table wizard, and timing you. I never actually use Word or Excel, but I put them on my resume anyway because it's buzzword-compliant and because I'm confident that I can figure out how to do anything quickly enough that no one will notice I'm winging it. It's not like padding your resume with C++ or Fortran - I've seen this done.

If you're technically competent, you should be able to pick up any application like Word in seconds. The problem with the tech industry is that people learn an interface rather than concepts, sort of like Pavlovian training rather than actual learning. I've worked as a full-time programmer and as a senior tech-support goon, and I've seen many people who were fine as long as they didn't stray from what they knew. There's nothing more pathetic than a Windows support technician sitting down in front of a Macintosh (OS 9!) and looking helpless. I'd far rather have someone less knowledgeable but willing and able to learn anything.
Re:and if you act now.... by woozlewuzzle · 2003-07-01 02:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think we're talking K-12 here. The purpose of K-12 is to teach kids to think and how to learn - it isn't a job prep school, it's a life-prep school. In the final 2 years of high school, there will be kids who go directly into the job market for whatever reason. A percentage of these will require specific computer skills (many will need to know how to make change). It would be nice for these kids to learn the current standard (MS Office) - but it really isn't the (public) school's responsibility to provide that. For all the students younger than that, learning a specific product won't help them much, since that product won't be de riguer when they get out of high school. Of course, those that go on to college will be even more removed from the current computing environment. Teach the kids how to use a computer, how to figure out how to use a product (Contextual menus, help files, interface hints) - they can brush up on specific technologies when they're ready to get a job. It's like the complaint that schools use Macs, but Autocad isn't available on the Mac, so they need to switch to PCs - How many 6th graders are quitting school to take a job that requires Autocad skills? Is the correct solution to teach them autocad earlier?
Re:and if you act now.... by 4of12 · 2003-07-01 03:23 · Score: 4, Funny

If you have your choice, then (3) is obviously the right answer.

People from category (1) and (2) don't need to be paid as much as people from category (3).

Finally, if you have a server room cage to contain person (2) to keep him away from scaring the upper management, he can do wonders with the computer, and will work unbelievable hours to prove that his FOSS LAMP application on a trashy Pentium II can outperform god's own webserver.

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"Provided by the management for your protection."

Schools aren't the defining factor? by binarytoaster · 2003-07-01 00:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yeah, I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.
Remember way back when, when Apple donated a bunch of Macs to the schools? Yeah, then the parents all bought Macs for compatibility and because their kids knew how to use them.

That was when computers were new; however, teaching them how to use Linux at a young age can affect how they decide later on. Now when they see Linux, they won't think "Ugh, I'm not going to be able to use it, so even if it is free..." - they'll be thinking "Hmm, I learned how to do this in school, maybe I'll try it at home."

This is a nice step...

Re:Schools aren't the defining factor? by gregfortune · 2003-07-01 01:10 · Score: 3, Informative

And that's the same factor that influenced the adoption of UNIX systems in the 70's and early 80's. The universities received their copies free or at drastically reduced costs and then students demanded UNIX like environments when they entered the workplace.

I teach UNIX/Linux at the local university and I've heard the last line in your comment verbatiam from several students each quarter. If we can get kids started on it even earlier.....

My Wife and Kids (slightly OT) by under_score · 2003-07-01 00:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

Linux is great. I personally use it as a server (along with FreeBSD), and I have RH8 running in a desktop configuration. However, I still haven't completely rid myself of Windows because I am lacking certain types of software that will run on Linux. Dreamweaver for myself and my wife, and a multitude of educational games for our kids.

So I have a question... what is available to replace this type of software? I haven't heard of _any_ educational games for kids! Is there some other way that I can solve this problem?

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Re:My Wife and Kids (slightly OT) by moorg · 2003-07-01 01:11 · Score: 5, Informative

This article includes references to educational linux software. Overall it's a great article.

You may also try looking at the Linux Journal topic Linux in Education.

In addition, there is a Knoppix remaster that's intended for schools.

Have you tried Wine?

Education = diversity of experience by Gefiltefish11 · 2003-07-01 00:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think it's well-agreed that most MS users are that way because of simple familiarity. Your run-of-the-mill user wouldn't port to Linux or another platform (even apple, as easy as it is to use) because they all seem foreign and counter-intuitive (this because intuition is based on repeated experience).

Because of this, it seems critical to catch kids early, before they become pigeon-holed into one particular OS (or any software package). Rather than using Linux exclusively, perhaps a revolving curriculum would be most helpful --Linux, MS, Apple, etc. Provide the variety of experiences that helps kids to learn the similarities among systems that makes for general intuition rather than intuition that is product-specific.

Personally involved in Oregon (portland) linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-01 01:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

I was personally involved in pushing for linux use in school networks, and met with huge amounts of resistance - especailly immediately after that point at which MS threatened to audit Portland public schools with their gestapo license enforcement crap. I swear to honest god someone on the school board was getting paid off or some shit.

We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us.

I wonder why MS isn't offering these cut rates to schools like they do to countries and organizations that are threatening to use OSS.

Fuckers.

Has anyone tried reading the article? by John+Harrison · 2003-07-01 01:04 · Score: 4, Funny

It reads like a bad babblefish translation. I expected better from Linux Journal. While one of the headings in the article asks, "Can You Explain the Oregon Legislature?" I would ask of Linux Journal, "Can You Explain Who Edits This Stuff?"

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Maybe... by Infernon · 2003-07-01 01:12 · Score: 3, Interesting

I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.

Maybe it won't be the sole factor, but it sure as hell is going to make a huge difference. Think of all of the lucky kids who are getting to know Linux at a young age and take that knowledge and (hopefully) preference into adulthood.

linux educational software... by WPIDalamar · 2003-07-01 01:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

I work for an educational software company... and I've never heard of anyone asking for linux versions of any of our products. If you want companies to make linux versions, you need to get on the ball and ask for them... hint hint...

Impressive by YeeHaW_Jelte · 2003-07-01 01:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

With K12 linux, I found this especially impressive:

"On the server side, two Compaq servers--a 933MHz dual-processor ML370 and a 1GHz dual-processor ML350--run Red Hat Linux and support about 220 concurrent users. "

220 users! Thats 220 times the price difference between a thin and a 'fat' client, minus the servers.

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I am setting this up for a school next week by codepunk · 2003-07-01 01:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

I donate my time to set up a terminal server environment and other linux goodies for school. Next week I am going to work on converting a under funded christian school and the week after content filtering solution for a public school. Linux is making alot of headway in these projects and I really enjoy showing them what can be done with a simple download.

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Sometimes you don't want attention? by Build6 · 2003-07-01 01:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

Does anyone else think these guys now have a big bulls-eye painted on them? I'm no historian, but from what I remember of revolts that weren't crushed (heads on sticks, bodies swinging from gallows, babies thrown onto bonfires etc.) is that there needs to be a critical mass before being able to withstand the (lethal) reactions of any oppressive tyrant. One single village aflame with the spirit of revolution pretty quickly becomes aflame in a physical sense when the imperial troops arrive.

Some new MS "education initiative" for those special school districts? Something else? How hard is it to replace the education board with different membership with different ... priorities?

Then again, maybe I'm just operating under FUD/paranoia... .

MainBrain School by ErikSev · 2003-07-01 01:43 · Score: 3, Informative

Just a quick and shameless plug, MainBrain allows schools to set up an amazing website which lets parents check grades, attendance, discipline, and all sorts of other information. It runs on Linux, using Perl and MySQL.

Check this school administration software and let me know what you think.

More important than that by bahamat · 2003-07-01 01:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

People will natually want to use the computer system they grew up with. My mom first used to learn about computers with a System 5 Macintosh, and she still swears by them even though she's been using a PC for the past 10 years. She still wishes it were a mac, she just knows they're far too expensive. Today's generation of people using computers really have only known MS products. There's comfort there, and better the devil you know than the one you don't.

I've always said that Linux on the desktop is not harder, it's only different. It's just different, so they complain. Linux is different so it's too hard. Mac is different so it's too dumbed down. It's just lame excuses from people unwilling to change. If kids grow up learning Linux they'll stick with it their entire lives. Just as youngsters in the 80's loved UNIX and when they grew up and got IT jobs they brought it into business. Truth is, people are sheep. They'll follow and do pretty much whatever they're told. The best progress into the world of home and business can be made in schools. If children grow up riding on a penguin they'll stick with it.

Re:Flexibility vs Practicality by awakened+tech · 2003-07-01 02:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually I think exactly the opposite is true. A large company with hundreds (or thousands) of staff can say "that's our Word guy and that's our Excel guy". Having worked for and ran my own small company I know that you can't afford single speciality people in a small group, everybody has to much in a do a bit of everything, therefore the wider their knowledge base the better.

I'd go as far as to say that if I was employing somebody to work in my 10 person company and they said they only had experience of a very small number of specific programs the interview would be over there and then.

This true in all industries, for example take a carpenters. If you have a hundred staff you can have one carpenter who specialised in door frames. If you have 5 carpenters you need them to be able to do more than the one specific task (unless of course your company only makes door frames!)

Re:Linux isn't feasible for education by gentgeen · 2003-07-01 02:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

It all comes down to what the kids and teachers are using the computers for. I'm a teacher at a small charter school. We house about 250-300 students between the middle and high school grades. We have a lab for the middle school and a lab for the high school. Each teacher has a computer in the room. All of the computers in the building are WinXP, including the servers. The majority of the time kids are in the lab they are using either MS Office or the Internet. We have some educational software, but not a lot. That is a lot of tech money wasted in my eyes.

I set up a K12LTSP server in my classroom with a total of 8 terminals. Although the kids spend some time crying about it. (This is an old computer, this isn't MS blah, etc), once they say that it did the same things -- No more crying. If fact many kids have come to use my computer instead using the ones in the lab.

It really just comes down to what you use it for. If the teacher's/students are not using a lot of the special software, why pay all the extra cash. Why not set up 1 lab with Windows/Mac for the software and one with K12LTSP for Internet, Office apps, etc. You just saved yourself 50% of your budget.

P.S. - Linux does have some great ed games and apps (see the Seul/Edu Application Index. They are just a little harder to find then"Mathblaser"

It's a good start... by Kyouryuu · 2003-07-01 03:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

I've personally been witness to one Oregon school district that has switched over to K12LTSP. Over last summer, we built a hundred of those thin-client computers. Let me be the first to tell you, walking into that computer lab today and seeing all of those kids on those computers with Linux and enjoying it would put to rest any concern over the need for Microsoft. Who needs PowerPoint? They've got the OpenOffice equivalent. Why pay thousands for a site license for Adobe Photoshop when The Gimp is free? The whole thing is basically free, of course, which means saved cash in an already strapped sector of the government. In this district alone, over $20,000 is saved annually. That's $20,000 that could be used to keep class sizes small, hire a new teacher, or update textbooks. In this economy, particularly one where schools are complaining everyday about lack of funding, every dollar saved is worth it. I see these other school districts with their pricy Dells and shiny iMacs and wonder just how much cash they blew through that they didn't need to. I don't insinuate that they didn't receive a steep discount, but I would be surprised if their technology spending for their labs was lower than this district. A thousand here, a thousand there - all of those little expenses lead to our state's current financial crisis. Based on the success of Linux in Oregon schools, open-source proponents had moved to pass a bill by the Oregon legislature that would mandate the state consider open-source solutions prior to spending the big bucks for Microsoft. Alas, despite widespread support, the representative from Wood Village shot down the bill and refused to let it be heard, citing verbatim the same reasons the huge tech firms - adamant in their lobby to stop the bill - had argued. The bill eventually died. Proponents mourned. Personally, I didn't see it as an open-source "power grab." I saw it as a way to hold the government accountable for its technology spending. The government should choose the most economical means of getting the job done and not waste taxpayer dollars on extravagant operating systems when all they need is simple word processing or whatnot. If that economical approach is open-source, so be it. If Microsoft decides to just hand over their wares for free, so be it. But always keep them on edge. It's clear this sort of thing scares Microsoft and a bit of fear is always a good thing if it means getting cheaper rates. The fact that the bill died showed Oregon's government is not ready to be held accountable for its decisions when it comes to technology spending. Consequently, I hear the same legislature is trying to up our taxes again in November. Go figure.

yup.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-01 03:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

I dunno.. seemed like when I went through school (K-12) it was pretty much all Apple computers .. Apple IIe, IIgs, Mac classic, Power macs, etc..

Did using that platform cause me (or my peers) great pains when using Windows? nah..

Why not?

Simple -- the concepts are the same. Both platforms (as well as Linux) have word processors, spreadsheets, games, databases, etc. Nowadays, both can access web content, email, multimedia titles, etc.

So whats my point? Schools are for EDUCATION. K-12 schools should NOT be thought of as a place to train youngsters for the job market. By not providing a microsoft centric platform, it will force the student to separate concepts of computing from the implimentation/interface of computing.

Unfortunately, like many have noted (and I have experienced) so much computer 'training' is simply telling people to click this icon, type in this text and presto, it works. Essentially, training consist of learning the interface, but not really learning the concepts. As a result, when the interface changes, instead of seeing similar concepts between different platforms, these individuals are completely dumbfounded and need to be 'reprogrammed'.

Sure, when a student gets to college or a trade school, they should learn the applications that will ultimately get them a job. However, by understanding that there is more than just one way to accomplish a task will undoubtedly provide more flexibility in their thinking patterns and increase their overall producitivity to the organization (easier to train on a new platform, able to think of concepts instead of "cookbook step by step instructions", etc..)

Ostriches? I think not! by Doug+Loss · 2003-07-01 04:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

Folks, let me tell you how it is. I lead SEUL/edu. Right now, I'm with Paul Nelson and Eric Harrison (and a bunch of kids from Riverside High School in Portland), representing K12LTSP, and Harry McGregor of the Open Source Education Foundation at the National Educational Computing Conference in Seattle. We're doing the evangelism where it's needed, in the educational community, rather than were it isn't, in the Linux community. Linux folks already are convinced of its usefulness, but folks in education need persuasion.

That's one of the reasons you may think we're being very quiet--we're not talking directly to you! But if you're interested in what's actually going on with open resources in education, go to any of the websites above, or to Schoolforge and look around and follow the links.

Another reason is that whenever we've submitted links about such things to /. (I asked Paul about this a minute ago, and his experience has been the same as mine) they have been rejected. If you're not interested in telling people about what's being done, don't expect them to know about it! We've stopped submitting our stories here, since they're never used. We try to use our energy more constructively now, but submitting our stories to educational journals, etc.

I use more and more GNU instead of Linux by sisukapalli1 · 2003-07-01 04:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

This may sound like a flamebait, but here is the reason... I use windows and cygwin at work (mainly tools such as xemacs, gcc, perl, jdk, mozilla, latex)... The underlying OS is more or less irrelevant it seems. Linux is nowhere in here, but GNU/OSS is everywhere. Of course, sometimes it is still way better to boot up in the linux partition (though some of our work *needs* to be done on windows).

In this context, may be it is the introduction of tools to youngsters is more important than the underlying OS. For instance, compare xemacs with wordpad or textpad or the latest $29 shareware text editor with obnoxious alerts about registering. May be show how it is better to write a "structured document" versus highlight and the standard way of selecting a font size and strength of some text in a document. May be show how tabbed browsing in mozilla or opera is good... Most of the die hard fans of systems such as emacs/mozilla/perl/latex are fans because these tools do things "better" in some way... If kids are shown that "there is more than one way to do it", they may really be ready to experiment with new software.

S

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