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Ostrich Lessons In Oregon?

Posted by Hemos on from the going-for-the-cheap dept.

dalslad writes "Oregon Schools Prove Linux Saves Money, says the headline but this article says "One has to wonder if Northwest school districts took ostrich lessons; they must represent the biggest secret in the Linux community. If their successes occurred in New York, Microsoft would be fighting for 5% of the PC desktop share". Maybe so? I've seen a lot of sites with Linux success stories, but the K12 Linux projects show progress I never knew existed." Yeah, I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step. More importantly, I think the success of the system depends on projects like the K12 Linux project and its like, especially for broader individual usage.

65 of 255 comments (clear)

  1. and if you act now.... by sweeney37 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

    Get 'em hooked early, then they'll never be able to stop using it.

    Mike

    1. Re:and if you act now.... by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please don't take this as a troll, I am just trying to go with the other side...

      Why shouldn't they be hooked early? Do you think that businesses are just going to magically stop using MS Office in the near future?

      So we are going to have these kids learn Linux and OpenOffice or maybe StarOffice or maybe KOffice and they are going to go about their daily duties with those applications...

      They get to an interview... "Do you have experience with MS Excel, MS Word, and MS Access?" "No sir, but I have used Kblah, OOBlah, and StarBlah."

      I would LOVE to see interviewers more tech. savvy and understand what those applications are. I doubt that day will come anytime soon. They are just too entrenched.

      I think using Linux in schools is a great idea. I also think that MS offering hardware/software to schools is also great. Whereever they can save the money that I end up paying in the end is good for me.

      Just my .02

    2. Re:and if you act now.... by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 5, Insightful

      With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

      They've been doing that as long as they've owned the market. It's not working any more, i.e., it's getting hard for Microsoft even to give Windows away. For educators, Windows just isn't nearly as good a value proposition[1] as Linux.

      [1] Yes, I know that's PHBspeak. It's also intensely ironic.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    3. Re:and if you act now.... by mmol_6453 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      When I was in elementary school (K-6), my schools used Apples and Macs. (Remember that Apple did the whole "charity" thing once, too.) I don't think it had much of an impact on the students. It didn't have any affect on me or anyone I knew. The only reason I'd get a Mac would be to get a piece of that IBM's 970 processor.

      Unfortunately, I expect the same will be true of exposure to Linux. Most of the benefits that schools will see in Linux systems will come from the administrative end. To get exposed students interested in running the platform at home, there'll have to be computer clubs and activity groups that take advantage of the benefits of Linux.

      --
      What's this Submit thingy do?
    4. Re:and if you act now.... by thornist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      With Microsoft's desire to have complete market dominance, how long before they start offering schools free, or cut-rate discounts all under the guise of "charity"?

      In South Africa they've already done this. In fact the story goes that the Department of Information were making very positive noises about a state pro-open source policy a couple of years ago, and then just a couple of days later Gates had flown out to meet Mbeki and Mbeki was announcing the "generous" gift of free MS software for all South African educational institutions (don't have time to seek out the reference for this story right now).

      In South Africa the issue is more than just getting people hooked to the company. Bigger than that for us is the question of being dependent on the US for our IT infrastructure. What happens if South Africa falls into disfavour with the mighty America and we cease to be able to get software or support, but all our data is tied into MS proprietary formats.

      Open source is a question of sustainability and survival for countries like mine.

    5. Re:and if you act now.... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Heh. You're taking exactly the wrong tack. Computer literacy is not about which software you know. We deployed StarOffice at a company and they cried and cried and cried because it wasn't MS, nevermind that, when they had been using MS they had to share 5 computers with MS on it. (Gov't agency; get audited all the time.) These people were complete computer idiots. I mean their big problem with the Linux desktop was that they didn't like the fonts.

      Turn this around; take an applicant who's just coming in for a job that requires a spreadsheet, a wordprocessor, and some sort of presentation software. What's going to impress you? Someone who just knows MS Office 2k, and gets hysterical when you give them Office 97 or Office XP. Or someone who has a good grounding in something a little different. "Have you ever used Word?" "No, but I've used Writer, Abiword, Islandwrite, and Emacs." Shows you've got flexibility, and that you've done something more than use yer grandmothers computer."

      Just my opinion.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:and if you act now.... by tuffy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Why shouldn't they be hooked early? Do you think that businesses are just going to magically stop using MS Office in the near future?

      If the workforce knows an alternative to MS Office, prefers an alternative to MS Office and can get the same job done just as well using an alternative to MS Office, businesses are going to magically use an alternative to MS Office.

      Seen WordStar lately?

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

    7. Re:and if you act now.... by fermion · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You are correct to point, but it is a chicken and egg thing.

      Many firms use Windows and Office because a large number of persons, not to mention the owners of the firms, are familiar with the software. This familiarity provides a significant comfort level. This is a great change from 20 years ago where most were not familiar with any microcomputer technology, and so it was truly a wide open game.

      Which leads to how we teach our students? Do we teach them commands and processes by rote, explaining that such and such mouse movements are magic incantations that cause the Lord MS to bless us with text, figures, and presentation, or do we teach them critically that the computer is a tool, just like a microwave oven, and not every one will work the exact same way but there are fundamental similarities.

      I hear the people back in the peanut gallery saying that students are too stupid to learn critical thinking and that may be true. But let me ask you this? Who is the more likely to have a lifetime of employment. A person who believes that the only OS is MS Windows or MacOS, or *nix, or the person who understands that all of these do similar things and is comfortable enough to go into an read a book the week before an interview and then go in a proudly claim they know the system and are willing to work on whatever tool the employer has.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    8. Re:and if you act now.... by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think that a majority of companies are going to stop using MS Office in the near future. But I do think that anyone with experience with one of the other products you cited should be able to figure out the major features of Office with no training whatsoever.

      Sure, there are going to be some managers/HR-bots who fail to recognize this. But we're not in the business of saving people from their own stupidity. :) Anyways, as the alternatives get more popular, such people are going to be less and less common.

      My advice to a job seeker would be to first point out that OO.o is your primary office suite at home, and if the dude looks at you funny, just tell them that you also have experience with MS Office. Whether it's technically true or not, it may as well be.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    9. Re:and if you act now.... by Delphiki · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I really don't think it will make too much difference one way or the other as far as getting a job, as long as it's presented right. If you're applying for a non-technical job where you would be using MS software, I doubt they would be impressed by the fact that you knew non-MS alternatives, though I doubt they would hold it against you too much as long as you said that you pointed out that you had experience in very similar programs. On the other hand if people only know open source alternatives and go into a job interview and start trying to convert the interviewer that's probably not going to help them.

      Ideally I think schools should have a variety of platforms for students to learn on, including Windows, Linux and OS X. Flexibility means being able to work on a variety of platforms, not just being able to work on a non-MS platform, after all.

      --

      Feel free to mod me "-1 - Angry Jerk".

    10. Re:and if you act now.... by tambo · · Score: 5, Insightful
      >What's going to impress you? Someone who just
      >knows MS Office 2k, and gets hysterical when
      >you give them Office 97 or Office XP. Or
      >someone who has a good grounding in something a
      >little different. "Have you ever used
      >Word?" "No, but I've used Writer, Abiword,
      >Islandwrite, and Emacs."

      Two comments - one you'll sort of like, and one you won't.

      Bitter pill first: Familiarity counts. Any application beyond Calculator or Solitaire requires a learning curve - regardless of platform. Even if you know Writer, Abiword, Islandwrite, Emacs, StarOffice, and MS Word, using mail-merge in WordPerfect will still be harder for you (the first few times) than for someone who's only used WordPerfect.


      Now here's a helpful suggestion, though rarely-seen on Slashdot: It's most impressive to have as broad a background as possible.


      Which of the following candidates would you choose for web admin:
      1) The stodgy Microsoft guy who insists on using IIS because that's all he knows; or
      2) The wild-haired Linux guy who launches into a tirade when you mention not using Apache; or
      3) The guy who has solid experience with both, knows their relative strengths and weaknesses, can provide an expert opinion on which is better suited to your needs, and is comfortable developing for the platform that you choose?

      David Stein, Esq.

      --
      Computer over. Virus = very yes.
    11. Re:and if you act now.... by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      They get to an interview... "Do you have experience with MS Excel, MS Word, and MS Access?" "No sir, but I have used Kblah, OOBlah, and StarBlah."

      Wrong answer, Say "Yes".

      If it's a technical job requiring you to have deep knowledge of VBA macros, of course you actually have to study it. Otherwise, using the K* and OO gives you almost exactly the same experience. If lying bothers you, (and this is trivial on the scale of job interview lying), spend an afernoon playing with someone's Windows PC and create and print a few documents, add up your shopping list, sort it alphabetically. You now have all the experience you need to do 99% of real world MSOffice work.

      You don't have to "study" MS Office for six years to learn how to write a memo, or add up a column of figures. I worked it out, the closest I came to a computer at school was a pocket calculator.

      On your resume, you write "experienced with MS Office and Linux office software". Or reverse the order if you think they'd prefer to hear that. You now have one more ability that may help you get the job.

    12. Re:and if you act now.... by TrekkieGod · · Score: 5, Insightful
      heh...if you read the post, you'd understand the point was showing that the person had flexibility.

      I laugh at the fact that they actually have courses to teach people how to use word processors and the such, and then I wake up from geek world and take a good look at my parents. I've never had anyone "teach" me how to use word, excel, or anything else, but when I had to use it, I learned it on the go, and wasn't inneficient at it either. To any computer literate person, the skill to figure out a tremendouly easy gui is just intuitive. "hmm...I want a table of contents...hey, look...insert TOC...hmm...it filters through heading types...I guess all I need to do is set up my headings as I type, then click the right radio buttons for the ones that I want to show up in the toc"

      If you hire an employee that has experience in a system that makes you be able to think (ie, linux, where you need to figure out how to get things to work--and thus learn how to figure things out), you'll not only get an employee who will be able to figure out word xp in no time flat, you'll get an employee who won't be complaining that he can't do his job because he doesn't know how to use the new, upgraded "word l337" or whatever mycrosoft thinks their new cool name should be.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    13. Re:and if you act now.... by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When I was in elementary school (K-6), my schools used Apples and Macs.....It didn't have any affect on me or anyone I knew..... Unfortunately, I expect the same will be true of exposure to Linux. Most of the benefits that schools will see in Linux systems will come from the administrative end.

      your school didn't have the ability to at the beginning of the semester to hand you a free and legal MAC. with linux... here you go, a full legal copy of the OS...Oh and have a copy of the Office Suite too...

      This one tiny little thing is what will make it work better than apple could have EVER done. the kids get it for absolutely free...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    14. Re:and if you act now.... by the+gnat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      100% of the interviewers asked "do you know MS Word, MS Excel, and MS Access."

      So fucking what? Lie through your teeth, and tell them "oh, yeah, sure." You'll never be put into a situation where they're testing your prowess with the Word table wizard, and timing you. I never actually use Word or Excel, but I put them on my resume anyway because it's buzzword-compliant and because I'm confident that I can figure out how to do anything quickly enough that no one will notice I'm winging it. It's not like padding your resume with C++ or Fortran - I've seen this done.

      If you're technically competent, you should be able to pick up any application like Word in seconds. The problem with the tech industry is that people learn an interface rather than concepts, sort of like Pavlovian training rather than actual learning. I've worked as a full-time programmer and as a senior tech-support goon, and I've seen many people who were fine as long as they didn't stray from what they knew. There's nothing more pathetic than a Windows support technician sitting down in front of a Macintosh (OS 9!) and looking helpless. I'd far rather have someone less knowledgeable but willing and able to learn anything.

    15. Re:and if you act now.... by woozlewuzzle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think we're talking K-12 here. The purpose of K-12 is to teach kids to think and how to learn - it isn't a job prep school, it's a life-prep school. In the final 2 years of high school, there will be kids who go directly into the job market for whatever reason. A percentage of these will require specific computer skills (many will need to know how to make change). It would be nice for these kids to learn the current standard (MS Office) - but it really isn't the (public) school's responsibility to provide that. For all the students younger than that, learning a specific product won't help them much, since that product won't be de riguer when they get out of high school. Of course, those that go on to college will be even more removed from the current computing environment. Teach the kids how to use a computer, how to figure out how to use a product (Contextual menus, help files, interface hints) - they can brush up on specific technologies when they're ready to get a job. It's like the complaint that schools use Macs, but Autocad isn't available on the Mac, so they need to switch to PCs - How many 6th graders are quitting school to take a job that requires Autocad skills? Is the correct solution to teach them autocad earlier?

    16. Re:and if you act now.... by Kubla+Khan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While i agree with you , if the person in question is remotely technical, if not this just doesnt work. The average computer user is practically authistic when it comes to application use. Hide a toolbar , move a button, in some cases delete their desktop icon so they have to hunt in the start menu, and that it. The sky has fallen in, the computer has broken, and if you admit that you are responsible god help you. The average, I write memos word user learnt to use it by rote. They dont understand the concepts and principles and they dont want to. Expecting them to adjust to a new user interface intuitively is a pipe dream. Give them a nice little day long class and some printouts and cheatsheets to bring back to their desk and then you have a hope.

      --
      "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree"
    17. Re:and if you act now.... by aallan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anyway, I doubt insubordination is a quality any employer is looking for...

      So what? Being patronising is not a quality I'm looking for in an employer. It goes both ways, there are some people you just don't want to work for...

      If I asked someone to demonstrate a skill they listed on their resume and they acted as though this task was beneath them, I'd scratch them off my list immediately.

      Depends what sort of job and what sort of skill, if I'm interviewing someone for a job that is primarily coding I'd never ask them to demonstrate their MS Office proficiency (listed on the resume or not). I'd be far more interested in figuring out if they knew how to code, and I wouldn't do this by asking they to write some C++, Java, Perl or whatever language we're looking for, I'd ask them to talk me through how they'd solve the problem. Perhaps I might ask if they had a free hand which lnaguage they'd attack the problem in...

      Appropriate questions are the key, an employer asking in-appropriate questions, or demanding that you prove you know how to do something trivial or unrelated to the core of the skills you need for the job, suggests that you should run, not walk, towards the nearest exit.

      Al.
      --
      The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
    18. Re:and if you act now.... by ajs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wrong answer still, though I think you're closer than some others.

      When interviewing for a job, you should know the tools that the job requires. If you are looking for office jobs, you should know the tools used in those jobs, and if that's MS Office you should learn MS Office, and learn it well.

      That's also beside the point of the original thread. What should be used in K12 is any tools that teach the basics that you will need to move on to college or independant learning later in life. You should not be using MS Word as a (sole) example word processor absolutely because it's likely to be the one they'll use later on. They should be using something that will make them learn the basic skills of modern tools, and then switch to something else on another platform.

      Schools should have PCs with Linux, PCs with Windows, Macs with MacOS, and anything else new or old they can get their hands on. The art of maintaining diverse platforms should be the key hiring criteria in K12 IT admins these days, because a) you should be able to take any freebies that come your way and b) you should be able to keep a diverse environment that makes kids keep learing new things while they're able to pick up these things MUCH faster than adults!

      If you need to interview for jobs that require MS Office (or some other) skills after you get out of High School there are dozens of little 2-week certificate courses you can take that range from $100 to thousands and then there's simply getting a computer that comes with Office and trying it out. If you're poor, you can even find assistance programs that will teach you these skills for free!

      What you can't find easily is a tool that makes you 14 years old again so that you can learn to learn.

    19. Re:and if you act now.... by 4of12 · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you have your choice, then (3) is obviously the right answer.

      People from category (1) and (2) don't need to be paid as much as people from category (3).

      Finally, if you have a server room cage to contain person (2) to keep him away from scaring the upper management, he can do wonders with the computer, and will work unbelievable hours to prove that his FOSS LAMP application on a trashy Pentium II can outperform god's own webserver.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    20. Re:and if you act now.... by nolife · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So we are going to have these kids learn Linux and OpenOffice or maybe StarOffice or maybe KOffice and they are going to go about their daily duties with those applications...

      School and learning is not supposed to be about very specific things. The goal is for you to be able to think for yourself and learn and use problem solving skills. Learning one very specific software package is NOT going to be an advantage to you later in life. Have you ever worked in an office that did not have at least 5 applications that were not "mainstream" or some oddball accounting package or invoicing system? How are people able to pick up on those? Trying different things and exploring are how people learn to learn.

      When I fininshed HS in 1988 we still had typewriters and Apple IIe's. I doubt I am the only one from that time frame that has been successful in IT now.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
  2. Schools aren't the defining factor? by binarytoaster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah, I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.
    Remember way back when, when Apple donated a bunch of Macs to the schools? Yeah, then the parents all bought Macs for compatibility and because their kids knew how to use them.

    That was when computers were new; however, teaching them how to use Linux at a young age can affect how they decide later on. Now when they see Linux, they won't think "Ugh, I'm not going to be able to use it, so even if it is free..." - they'll be thinking "Hmm, I learned how to do this in school, maybe I'll try it at home."

    This is a nice step...

    1. Re:Schools aren't the defining factor? by gregfortune · · Score: 3, Informative

      And that's the same factor that influenced the adoption of UNIX systems in the 70's and early 80's. The universities received their copies free or at drastically reduced costs and then students demanded UNIX like environments when they entered the workplace.

      I teach UNIX/Linux at the local university and I've heard the last line in your comment verbatiam from several students each quarter. If we can get kids started on it even earlier.....

    2. Re:Schools aren't the defining factor? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Remember way back when, when Apple donated a bunch of Macs to the schools? Yeah, then the parents all bought Macs for compatibility and because their kids knew how to use them.

      Heh, yeah, I remember those days. All the kids would say "c'mon Dad, buy a Mac" and Dad would say "What the hell's a Mac? I'm buying an IBM like we use a work".

      You raise a crucial point. I think it's important to remember that kids don't have money. And, although Linux, OO, etc. are all free, the hardware they run on isn't. So long as you have parents buying the hardware, it's gonna come with all the usual MS crap pre-installed.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    3. Re:Schools aren't the defining factor? by Geekbot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "You raise a crucial point. I think it's important to remember that kids don't have money. And, although Linux, OO, etc. are all free, the hardware they run on isn't. So long as you have parents buying the hardware, it's gonna come with all the usual MS crap pre-installed."

      This was brought up earlier in the comments. And it is about the only real negative point made and maybe the easiest to refute. You point out a comparison to Macs but say that parents are going to buy the systems and get what they have at work. Well, that's fine, because their *86 compatible computer is going to also run Linux. The kid can just pop in a CD for linux without even installing anything.

      I agree in the point that this is why Mac vs. PC in schools went nowhere. However, the two are not very comparable because of that difference: that linux will run on dad's Windows box and will run even without a regular OS installation set up.

  3. Linux in Public Schools. by taliver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course having Linux in Public Schools will make Linux appear everywhere. Just look at Apple's success with the same strategy.

    The problem becomes one of kids thinking that Linux is a "training" computer environment, and that when they "grow up" they get to use a real environment.

    --

    I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!

  4. My Wife and Kids (slightly OT) by under_score · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Linux is great. I personally use it as a server (along with FreeBSD), and I have RH8 running in a desktop configuration. However, I still haven't completely rid myself of Windows because I am lacking certain types of software that will run on Linux. Dreamweaver for myself and my wife, and a multitude of educational games for our kids.

    So I have a question... what is available to replace this type of software? I haven't heard of _any_ educational games for kids! Is there some other way that I can solve this problem?

    --
    Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
    1. Re:My Wife and Kids (slightly OT) by moorg · · Score: 5, Informative

      This article includes references to educational linux software. Overall it's a great article.

      You may also try looking at the Linux Journal topic Linux in Education.

      In addition, there is a Knoppix remaster that's intended for schools.

      Have you tried Wine?

  5. Education = diversity of experience by Gefiltefish11 · · Score: 5, Insightful


    I think it's well-agreed that most MS users are that way because of simple familiarity. Your run-of-the-mill user wouldn't port to Linux or another platform (even apple, as easy as it is to use) because they all seem foreign and counter-intuitive (this because intuition is based on repeated experience).

    Because of this, it seems critical to catch kids early, before they become pigeon-holed into one particular OS (or any software package). Rather than using Linux exclusively, perhaps a revolving curriculum would be most helpful --Linux, MS, Apple, etc. Provide the variety of experiences that helps kids to learn the similarities among systems that makes for general intuition rather than intuition that is product-specific.

  6. Personally involved in Oregon (portland) linux... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was personally involved in pushing for linux use in school networks, and met with huge amounts of resistance - especailly immediately after that point at which MS threatened to audit Portland public schools with their gestapo license enforcement crap. I swear to honest god someone on the school board was getting paid off or some shit.

    We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us.

    I wonder why MS isn't offering these cut rates to schools like they do to countries and organizations that are threatening to use OSS.

    Fuckers.

  7. Re:Oregon, Slashdot, Microsoft and Google...??? by MrSkunk · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ummm, did you actually try that search, or are you just trying to spread some FUD? I just searched google for 'Oregon Microsoft Slashdot' and I got 4,230 results.

    If you want to find info on slashdot related to oregon and slashdot, then you can search for 'Oregon Microsoft site:slashdot.org'. That returns 244 results.

  8. Has anyone tried reading the article? by John+Harrison · · Score: 4, Funny

    It reads like a bad babblefish translation. I expected better from Linux Journal. While one of the headings in the article asks, "Can You Explain the Oregon Legislature?" I would ask of Linux Journal, "Can You Explain Who Edits This Stuff?"

    --
    Lasers Controlled Games!
    1. Re:Has anyone tried reading the article? by mausmalone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it may be written poorly, but it's extremely biased, that meets my expectations about Linux Journal. Not an attack on Linux, but I wouldn't read Windows magazine for news either. Or MacAddict *shudder*. As a rule of thumb, I don't trust news reported by evangelists.

      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
  9. Maybe... by Infernon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't think that the schools are going to prove to be the sole factor in Linux on the desktop, but it's a good step.

    Maybe it won't be the sole factor, but it sure as hell is going to make a huge difference. Think of all of the lucky kids who are getting to know Linux at a young age and take that knowledge and (hopefully) preference into adulthood.

    1. Re:Maybe... by mausmalone · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Think of all of the lucky kids who are getting to know Linux at a young age and take that knowledge and (hopefully) preference into adulthood.


      This, of course, assumes that Linux is a good thing. And that these kids will get a chance to know it. Every Windows PC at a school needs to be locked down to prevent tampering and just general mis-use by curious do-it-yourself kids. What makes Linux any different than OSX or Windows if the kids are only allowed to launch certain applications, and never allowed to use the actual underlying OS tools? Basically, we're getting kids acclimated to various program launchers, which is by far the easiest part of an OS to learn. The OSX dock is anything but intuitive, but even that only takes like 2 minutes of messing around with it to figure it out.

      And as far as Linux being a good thing, I'm tired of that being assumed. Linux is an OS with pros and cons, just like every other OS, and instead of immediately assuming that world + dog should be using it we should look specifically at the students and discuss what the positive and negative effects of a Linux shift are.

      I will agree, though, that there is no excuse for running Windows for firewall and routing, and Linux would work well for their web and application servers. The low price tag is moot (as these schools already have licenses to MS products, you don't get your money back for switching), but the stability and speed is a huge advantage.
      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
  10. linux educational software... by WPIDalamar · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I work for an educational software company... and I've never heard of anyone asking for linux versions of any of our products. If you want companies to make linux versions, you need to get on the ball and ask for them... hint hint...

  11. Re:Linux isn't feasible for education by lederhosen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Computers are not needed for small kids.
    It is better for them to learn some math,
    or more important their language.

  12. how about Universities? by bigjnsa500 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have been banging my head up against a wall for about 2 years now trying to get our University to at least make some sort of switchover to Linux servers/desktops. I mean, you don't need Windows to just check email and run telnet apps. Needless to say, they signed a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract extension to Microsloth.

    --
    This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
  13. Impressive by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With K12 linux, I found this especially impressive:

    "On the server side, two Compaq servers--a 933MHz dual-processor ML370 and a 1GHz dual-processor ML350--run Red Hat Linux and support about 220 concurrent users. "

    220 users! Thats 220 times the price difference between a thin and a 'fat' client, minus the servers.

    --

    ---
    "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
    1. Re:Impressive by mindriot · · Score: 2, Insightful
      220 would pretty much do it for half a highschool

      No no no. You're missing the important keyword concurrent. Even for a high school with about 2,000 students, this should be enough with current computing needs. You'll hardly have more than that amount of students using the system at the same time.

  14. I am setting this up for a school next week by codepunk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I donate my time to set up a terminal server environment and other linux goodies for school. Next week I am going to work on converting a under funded christian school and the week after content filtering solution for a public school. Linux is making alot of headway in these projects and I really enjoy showing them what can be done with a simple download.

    --


    Got Code?
  15. Sometimes you don't want attention? by Build6 · · Score: 3, Interesting


    Does anyone else think these guys now have a big bulls-eye painted on them? I'm no historian, but from what I remember of revolts that weren't crushed (heads on sticks, bodies swinging from gallows, babies thrown onto bonfires etc.) is that there needs to be a critical mass before being able to withstand the (lethal) reactions of any oppressive tyrant. One single village aflame with the spirit of revolution pretty quickly becomes aflame in a physical sense when the imperial troops arrive.

    Some new MS "education initiative" for those special school districts? Something else? How hard is it to replace the education board with different membership with different ... priorities?

    Then again, maybe I'm just operating under FUD/paranoia... .

  16. MainBrain School by ErikSev · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just a quick and shameless plug, MainBrain allows schools to set up an amazing website which lets parents check grades, attendance, discipline, and all sorts of other information. It runs on Linux, using Perl and MySQL.

    Check this school administration software and let me know what you think.

    1. Re:MainBrain School by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with software like that.. espically the type that screams all over it "I'm horribly Expensive!!!!" because of the lack of pricing on the site and the tell-tale... "see if you qualify for a grant" meaning... there is no way in hell you can afford this... let's see if the govt will flit the bill...

      I'm sure you think your software is worth $24,000.00 but the schools don't.. Sell it for $1000.00 max and you will get customers...

      It's nice, I'll give you that... but from what I can see from the website... I know it's too damn expensive... no private school will ever be able to afford it... espically parochial schools.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  17. Young and fluent... by da5idnetlimit.com · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can see the problem...

    They learn some math.
    Then the Langage.
    Then the parents come to you and asks why their child only speaks in perl 8)

    --
    It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
  18. More important than that by bahamat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People will natually want to use the computer system they grew up with. My mom first used to learn about computers with a System 5 Macintosh, and she still swears by them even though she's been using a PC for the past 10 years. She still wishes it were a mac, she just knows they're far too expensive. Today's generation of people using computers really have only known MS products. There's comfort there, and better the devil you know than the one you don't.

    I've always said that Linux on the desktop is not harder, it's only different. It's just different, so they complain. Linux is different so it's too hard. Mac is different so it's too dumbed down. It's just lame excuses from people unwilling to change. If kids grow up learning Linux they'll stick with it their entire lives. Just as youngsters in the 80's loved UNIX and when they grew up and got IT jobs they brought it into business. Truth is, people are sheep. They'll follow and do pretty much whatever they're told. The best progress into the world of home and business can be made in schools. If children grow up riding on a penguin they'll stick with it.

    1. Re:More important than that by delphi125 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      She still wishes it were a mac, she just knows they're far too expensive

      First of all a disclaimer: I am not a Mac fanatic, indeed I haven't used one for about 15 years. Also I don't use Linux at either work (tho I would love a Kylix contract!) or play (hmm maybe NWN now?). But I think to claim Macs are too expensive (despite the fact that I can't afford one) is unfair.

      Why? Well unless your mother is desperate to play the latest games or needs fast compilation/rendering/whatever, a Mac will last a bit longer. Browsing, word processing, e-mail etc. should run fine. The PC I had running in 1995 was as fast as anything since; I've probably bought 3 complete systems since. Now, as a nerd, that is fine, but it would have been cheaper in the long run to invest in a Mac if all I had wanted to do was surf etc.

      In summary, my point is not against you, but our mothers who have been convinced they need to upgrade their PCs. They need a stable OS (and hardware) instead.

  19. Re:Personally involved in Oregon (portland) linux. by roystgnr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We installed linux at a few schools anyway, on their network cores, only to come back later and see that the admins had come around and installed win2k right behind us.

    You installed software (on "network cores", no less) behind the systems administrators' backs, and you were expecting something different to happen?

  20. Re:Flexibility vs Practicality by awakened+tech · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually I think exactly the opposite is true. A large company with hundreds (or thousands) of staff can say "that's our Word guy and that's our Excel guy". Having worked for and ran my own small company I know that you can't afford single speciality people in a small group, everybody has to much in a do a bit of everything, therefore the wider their knowledge base the better.

    I'd go as far as to say that if I was employing somebody to work in my 10 person company and they said they only had experience of a very small number of specific programs the interview would be over there and then.

    This true in all industries, for example take a carpenters. If you have a hundred staff you can have one carpenter who specialised in door frames. If you have 5 carpenters you need them to be able to do more than the one specific task (unless of course your company only makes door frames!)

  21. But who takes schools seriously? by okvol · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of my daughters had a computer class in grades 1 through 6, in a decent funded public school. They had Apple IIs and Macs. They would only allow the Macs to emulate the Apple IIs to be fair to the students. I seriously doubt any student graduated and went on to recommend Apple IIs.

    The sad part is that no one cares about the level of tech in the public schools. This would be good news if it meant anything.

    --
    cabg x3 is a life changing event...
  22. Maintaing your country's independance..... by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read your post, and though this will surprise you, I agree with your position and sympathize with you. I'm one of those evil right wing Americans that you hear so much about that likes the fact that we're the dominant power in the world right now.

    So you might be shocked to learn that I completely agree with you. Open source software can help you. And if I were in your position, I wouldn't want to become beholden to one company's product no matter WHERE it comes from. An open, standards based information infrastructure is vital for that. China isn't developing Red Flag Linux to spur their software industry so much as to maintain their competitiveness with the US.

    In fact, you're going to love this. I'm rooting for you here. And for everyone else across the world adopting OSS instead of MS products for their nation's needs. Why?

    It isn't that I hate Microsoft. Far from it. On many levels, I truly admire Gates and his company. I'd like to see them stay successful.

    What I don't want to see them do is dominate EVERYTHING. I want to see Apple succeed. And SGI. And Red Hat. And SuSe, etc, etc. I want OSS to be widely adopted across the world so that open standards rule the day. I have no problem with incredible numbers of people using MS stuff. This is heresy here to say this, but MS, unlike the past, makes a lot of good software now. I just want that software to use those same open standards that others use. I want other software to be able to interact and operate with MS software. Massive OSS use across the world can ensure that. When I go to a bank website, I want Mozilla to work too, not just IE.

    So thornist, I say good luck to your country in it's quest for building a strong, open infrastructure. It's good for you, and frankly, it's good for us too.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  23. They didnt hide it.. by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While they may not have been on the front page, K12 has been discussed on here, distrowatch, OSnews, and several educational slanted open source sites ( that I fail to remember the name of at the moment )...

    It wasnt a secret by a long shot.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  24. Re:Flexibility vs Practicality by miu · · Score: 2, Informative
    Small businesses (read 1-10 people) tend to be a bit more practical. They're specifically interested in whether you can do the particular job they need you to do.

    I've had the opposite experience, small businesses need someone who can wear lots of different hats, large companies are more likely to need a highly skilled specialist.

    --

    [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
  25. It's no supprise! by Pontiac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After the Big screwing Microsoft tried to hand NW schools I'm not supprised there is a bigger push for open source software in NW school districts.
    You have a limited shoe string budget to keep the school running.. To the left we have MS asking for a cool half mill a year to license ALL your PC's regardless of OS they really run. On the right we have OSS software.. You make the call.

    --
    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
  26. Re:Linux isn't feasible for education by gentgeen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It all comes down to what the kids and teachers are using the computers for. I'm a teacher at a small charter school. We house about 250-300 students between the middle and high school grades. We have a lab for the middle school and a lab for the high school. Each teacher has a computer in the room. All of the computers in the building are WinXP, including the servers. The majority of the time kids are in the lab they are using either MS Office or the Internet. We have some educational software, but not a lot. That is a lot of tech money wasted in my eyes.

    I set up a K12LTSP server in my classroom with a total of 8 terminals. Although the kids spend some time crying about it. (This is an old computer, this isn't MS blah, etc), once they say that it did the same things -- No more crying. If fact many kids have come to use my computer instead using the ones in the lab.

    It really just comes down to what you use it for. If the teacher's/students are not using a lot of the special software, why pay all the extra cash. Why not set up 1 lab with Windows/Mac for the software and one with K12LTSP for Internet, Office apps, etc. You just saved yourself 50% of your budget.

    P.S. - Linux does have some great ed games and apps (see the Seul/Edu Application Index. They are just a little harder to find then"Mathblaser"

  27. ended with SQL Server 2000 testimonial? by slashkitty · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Did anyone notice the testimonial at the end? The "Grant Tracking System which had previously been developed with state funds at the office of the Governor." A quick check at GovermentDomain.com shows this description for the app:
    Front end is developed in Microsoft Access 97. The database runs on SQL Server 2000 The online portion of the application requires a windows NT Web Server running IIS 4.0
    It doesn't look like the reporter did the research on this example.
    --
    -- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
  28. It's a good start... by Kyouryuu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've personally been witness to one Oregon school district that has switched over to K12LTSP. Over last summer, we built a hundred of those thin-client computers. Let me be the first to tell you, walking into that computer lab today and seeing all of those kids on those computers with Linux and enjoying it would put to rest any concern over the need for Microsoft. Who needs PowerPoint? They've got the OpenOffice equivalent. Why pay thousands for a site license for Adobe Photoshop when The Gimp is free? The whole thing is basically free, of course, which means saved cash in an already strapped sector of the government. In this district alone, over $20,000 is saved annually. That's $20,000 that could be used to keep class sizes small, hire a new teacher, or update textbooks. In this economy, particularly one where schools are complaining everyday about lack of funding, every dollar saved is worth it. I see these other school districts with their pricy Dells and shiny iMacs and wonder just how much cash they blew through that they didn't need to. I don't insinuate that they didn't receive a steep discount, but I would be surprised if their technology spending for their labs was lower than this district. A thousand here, a thousand there - all of those little expenses lead to our state's current financial crisis. Based on the success of Linux in Oregon schools, open-source proponents had moved to pass a bill by the Oregon legislature that would mandate the state consider open-source solutions prior to spending the big bucks for Microsoft. Alas, despite widespread support, the representative from Wood Village shot down the bill and refused to let it be heard, citing verbatim the same reasons the huge tech firms - adamant in their lobby to stop the bill - had argued. The bill eventually died. Proponents mourned. Personally, I didn't see it as an open-source "power grab." I saw it as a way to hold the government accountable for its technology spending. The government should choose the most economical means of getting the job done and not waste taxpayer dollars on extravagant operating systems when all they need is simple word processing or whatnot. If that economical approach is open-source, so be it. If Microsoft decides to just hand over their wares for free, so be it. But always keep them on edge. It's clear this sort of thing scares Microsoft and a bit of fear is always a good thing if it means getting cheaper rates. The fact that the bill died showed Oregon's government is not ready to be held accountable for its decisions when it comes to technology spending. Consequently, I hear the same legislature is trying to up our taxes again in November. Go figure.

  29. Resistance in Leadership and Peers by runswithd6s · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I had once helped a couple friends install Linux systems at a small extension high school, one of them was a teacher railroaded into the part-time IT Coordinator position. Even though we had successfully deployed a stable, secure, low-maintenance, low-cost Linux environment, his peers were committed to causing his eventual resignation.

    Windows was the only "real" answer for his peers, even while staring into the eye of a year of success with Linux. A year of success. Sometimes you simply cannot win against the engrained "religious" beliefs of some computer users, especially those people who influence financial and policy decisions in your work place.

    --
    assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
  30. Re:Personally involved in Oregon (portland) linux. by MoronBob · · Score: 2, Informative

    I am a unix admin for the largest k12 school district in Colorado and am meeting stiff resistance to the use of Open Source here. Most of the critics here are astonished to learn that the majority of the internet's web sites run on an "Open Source" product called apache. The district as a whole seems to shun anything not from MicroSoft or Novell. However a colleague and I are starting a Pilot Project using Linux and Open Source at the charter schools within the district. Most of them are very progressive minded and interested in exploring alternatives to the norm. We are installing a terminal server from the K12 linux terminal server project, squid proxy servers, Star Office and Open Office. Open Source is not a panacea but meets some of the needs of cash strapped schools and districts. This district like many others is currently facing budget problems that will eventually force it to rethink its position on open source. Fiscal responsibility is required of those who are stewards of public funds. When many governments and school districts start to show significant savings by the use of open source it will be very difficult to justify using expensive software. I for one plan on being ready to help school districts and governments make the migration to open source.

    --
    Telecommuting! What about socialization?
  31. yup.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I dunno.. seemed like when I went through school (K-12) it was pretty much all Apple computers .. Apple IIe, IIgs, Mac classic, Power macs, etc..

    Did using that platform cause me (or my peers) great pains when using Windows? nah..

    Why not?

    Simple -- the concepts are the same. Both platforms (as well as Linux) have word processors, spreadsheets, games, databases, etc. Nowadays, both can access web content, email, multimedia titles, etc.

    So whats my point? Schools are for EDUCATION. K-12 schools should NOT be thought of as a place to train youngsters for the job market. By not providing a microsoft centric platform, it will force the student to separate concepts of computing from the implimentation/interface of computing.

    Unfortunately, like many have noted (and I have experienced) so much computer 'training' is simply telling people to click this icon, type in this text and presto, it works. Essentially, training consist of learning the interface, but not really learning the concepts. As a result, when the interface changes, instead of seeing similar concepts between different platforms, these individuals are completely dumbfounded and need to be 'reprogrammed'.

    Sure, when a student gets to college or a trade school, they should learn the applications that will ultimately get them a job. However, by understanding that there is more than just one way to accomplish a task will undoubtedly provide more flexibility in their thinking patterns and increase their overall producitivity to the organization (easier to train on a new platform, able to think of concepts instead of "cookbook step by step instructions", etc..)

  32. Ostriches? I think not! by Doug+Loss · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Folks, let me tell you how it is. I lead SEUL/edu. Right now, I'm with Paul Nelson and Eric Harrison (and a bunch of kids from Riverside High School in Portland), representing K12LTSP, and Harry McGregor of the Open Source Education Foundation at the National Educational Computing Conference in Seattle. We're doing the evangelism where it's needed, in the educational community, rather than were it isn't, in the Linux community. Linux folks already are convinced of its usefulness, but folks in education need persuasion.

    That's one of the reasons you may think we're being very quiet--we're not talking directly to you! But if you're interested in what's actually going on with open resources in education, go to any of the websites above, or to Schoolforge and look around and follow the links.

    Another reason is that whenever we've submitted links about such things to /. (I asked Paul about this a minute ago, and his experience has been the same as mine) they have been rejected. If you're not interested in telling people about what's being done, don't expect them to know about it! We've stopped submitting our stories here, since they're never used. We try to use our energy more constructively now, but submitting our stories to educational journals, etc.

  33. Tech Cadre by descil · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was the CEO of a NW Oregon company called 'Tech Cadre' for less than a year. Tech Cadre has some interesting properties that a lot of companies don't possess. For one thing, no employee can possibly last more than four years, and none have yet lasted more than three. The company does its firing, then waits several months before hiring anyone new - although at times it loses half its workforce in one of these three-month changeovers.

    Tech Cadre is an in-school business, and all of the employees are students. They do webdesign, and some very good web design, along with other support for clients. I'm no longer an employee nor an employer, but I still recognize them as what they are: the best of their kind. The business is completely run and funded by students and the work they do, is completely volunteer-based, and is currently in the process of moving partially from Windows to Linux. The Tech Cadre also supports Milwaukie High School in its computing efforts, and has plans to put Linux in the classroom as well - in some places, these plans are already in effect.

    You see, we the students already know what K12 needs. It doesn't need Linux or Windows, it needs both. Even in the Tech Cadre, a group of nerds who hates Macintoshes, we run a few Macs in order to keep part of our customer base satisfied. We run Windows for the same reason and for real world experience, and Linux to keep our servers running. A monopoly on either side of the wire is pointless - a company should never buy into just one OS, despite the technical knowledge needed to run two or three. Each operating system has its place and a tremendous value, and the Tech Cadre recognizes that. Can you professionals recognize the same thing that a group of amateurs does?

    Tech Cadre

  34. Re:Flexibility vs Practicality by czth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So flexibility matters, but specific skills matter far, far more if that's what the recruiter wants. (for developers: imagine you went to an interview, said I know C++, and the recruiter said 'brilliant, that shows you're flexible 'cos we only do java here' :-)

    That's basically how it happened for me at an interview with Trilogy in Austin, Texas (second set of interviews, "Microsoft style", they flew me down there for a long weekend, tour, several interviews, etc.). They knew I didn't know Java, so any interview questions specific to programming were asked in C++. They knew I'd be able to pick up Java. As it happens, I was offered the job but wasn't all that sure about taking it (mainly because I wasn't all that sure that I liked Java), despite the decent benefits and salary. Before I could make up my mind they had to withdraw the offer as they were letting people go (but I'm told reliably by someone that worked there that if I had accepted sooner I'd have been hired).

    czth

  35. I use more and more GNU instead of Linux by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This may sound like a flamebait, but here is the reason... I use windows and cygwin at work (mainly tools such as xemacs, gcc, perl, jdk, mozilla, latex)... The underlying OS is more or less irrelevant it seems. Linux is nowhere in here, but GNU/OSS is everywhere. Of course, sometimes it is still way better to boot up in the linux partition (though some of our work *needs* to be done on windows).

    In this context, may be it is the introduction of tools to youngsters is more important than the underlying OS. For instance, compare xemacs with wordpad or textpad or the latest $29 shareware text editor with obnoxious alerts about registering. May be show how it is better to write a "structured document" versus highlight and the standard way of selecting a font size and strength of some text in a document. May be show how tabbed browsing in mozilla or opera is good... Most of the die hard fans of systems such as emacs/mozilla/perl/latex are fans because these tools do things "better" in some way... If kids are shown that "there is more than one way to do it", they may really be ready to experiment with new software.

    S

  36. A little background by lilbudda · · Score: 2, Informative

    What the /. community doesn't know is the politics and current situation going on in Oregon. Oregon, silicon forest, has the worst unemployment rate of the country. Second, and due to that, being we only have income and property tax (no sales!), the legislature is facing huge budget crunches. Criminals are being let out, school years are the shortest in the country and a whole host of other services are being axed. Government and schools need to save $$ wherever possible and I think linux could lead the way... check out my article at http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback21.html