Building a PC Equal to XBox for the Same Price or Less?

Lonnold asks: "Every time the topic of Linux on the XBox and/or XBox modding comes up, some one always responds, 'I can build a better PC from scratch, why waste time modding a game console?' So that's my challenge, can anyone demonstrate that it is cheaper to build a PC comparable to the XBox specs?"

Comments

Before anyone tries...

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the price point? X-box + modchip = ~$220 USD now, right?

f to the pizay

Impossible

[GigsVT]

build a PC comparable to the XBox specs

There's no way you could find hardware that will only run signed binaries on the open market. Only an idiot would buy such crippled hardware, and the company that came out with it would go under quickly, unless maybe they were some kind of monopoly or something.

Re:Impossible

[PFAK]

That's not what the article writer is asking.

He is asking if you can build something with similiar hardware for cheaper or the same price that's NOT crippled.

Um, loss leader anyone?

[ByronEllis]

Well, since Microsoft is taking a loss on the XBox hardware so you might not be able to accomplish that. Its pretty standard Gillette-style marketing practice (give the razor away and make a killing on the blades).

Of course the 'killing on the blades' part is proving to be more difficult than they anticipated, but so it goes.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[charlie763]

Don't forget that they are having these systems built with some specialized hardware (e.g. it's motherboard), which costs mad loot!

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[larry bagina]

do you have secret internal memos from microsoft that states that, or are you just repeating the conventional wisdom?

The XBox isn't cutting edge -- it's made from 1-2 year old components, and they drop in price rather fast.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

But Microsoft cut the price of the Xbox by a 1/4.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[ivan256]

Of course the 'killing on the blades' part is proving to be more difficult than they anticipated, but so it goes.

Perhaps they overlooked the fact that blades wear out, but game discs don't. You can't trade razor blades with friends or sell them back to "Razor Stop" and replace them with other used blades unless you like pain.

We won't even get into the fact that Gilette using existing patent law to protect their business model and didn't have to lobby congress for new protections that didn't exist to prevent reverse engineering.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[cdrudge]

I posted this in a previous dicussion when someone asked almost the exact same question.

Q: How long will Microsoft support a platform that seems destined to be in the red for the next few years? After all, you have invested $3.5 billion on the Xbox and are still losing money on the sale of each unit.

A: We are being smart about bringing the cost of producing the Xbox console down. We can decide to not make it a long investment business and price it to get a better return, but this is a 10-, 15- and 20-year investment.

Source: Interview with Robbie Bach, chief Xbox officer (CXO) and vice-president of the Home & Entertainment Division at Microsoft Corp. June 16th, 2003. (It looks like the canada.com link is no longer working, but you can read the article here.)

The Register also had a recent article that puts the loss per sale figure at around $150. While PC costs have dropped over the last year or two, so has the X-box price. They also have to recoup serious development and advertising fees. MSFT has over $3.5 billion wrapped up in X-box so far.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[ByronEllis]

No, of course I don't, and Microsoft (or anyone else for that matter) isn't obligated/inclined to report this information. The business model is simply The Way It Is Done and you are correct---the stuff is a couple of years old now and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their loss per unit is maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of what is was originally (IIRC the expected loss per unit at launch was something like $100-$150 so that would make the loss somewhere between $30-$75 now).

Unfortunately, Microsoft gets to buy in bulk and has a relatively close relationship with their manufacturer, something Joe Consumer doesn't get which compounds the problem of building a machine with the same price point.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[jafuser]

I think a lot of people are not getting this point.

- Microsoft is a big company who can buy in bulk
- They are losing money on each Xbox
- They would have used less costly hardware if it existed
- A DIY PC will most likely not have as small of a footprint as an Xbox (yeah, leave the jokes aside).

Many of the posts in this article fail to meet the sub $200 price, and even on top of that, they often leave out 5.1 sound AND how about a graphics chipset which is at least comparable to the Xbox? Geforce 4 MX is *NOT* anywhere in the same league as the Xbox chipset.

The parent poster is correct. It is very highly UNLIKELY that a less expensive alternative will be found which compares to a loss leader product.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[Glonoinha]

-MSFT has over $3.5 billion wrapped up in X-box so far.

Maybe Microsoft should have named it the XBox.com

Only a .com could piss away $3.5B in two years and have nothing to show for it one more year after that.

Re:Um, loss leader anyone?

[cdrudge]

I think it would be interesting to see how much Sony used when they first came out with the PS. At that time, Sony was the new guy going against Sega and Nintendo. While a chunk of the $3.5b went to development, I'd imagine that a bigger chunk has gone towards marketing. It doesn't matter how superior the system is or isn't, if it doesn't get marketed well, it will fail.

form factor

[wharrislv]

I'd really like to see any suggestions make specific reference to both the form factor and the noise issue. I'm imaging that the major desire to mod the xbox is that it fits in well with a home theatre landscape...its not so much the price anymore. Even though the xbox is huge (lol) its still a hell of a lot smaller and quiter and cooler than a typical cheap pc.

Lets see here

[Glonoinha]

CPU : PIII 733MHz w/ 128k cache
RAM : 64M
Video card : GeForce 3ti or maybe even a low end GF4.
Sound card : Regular ol' sound card.
Media : CD/DVD reader.
Hard drive : 8G

$220 without a floppy drive, keyboard, or OS? I think we can probably do that pretty easy, or should I say yes, very easy. Probably do twice as much performance (Celeron 1.4GHz or even higher cpu, twice as much memory, hard drive space) for $250.

Re:Lets see here

[seinman]

Scratch that "regular old sound card..." the Xbox does 5.1 digital audio. I don't think your bargin bin sound card can handle that one, can it?

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

The XBOX games cost $50, $75 or more EACH. PC games are free, except for the occasional unbreakable CD-KEY (breakable meaning there's no way around using the game without a cd-key).

PC wins hands down.

Re:Lets see here

[crisco]

pricewatch:

geforce 3ti: $63
celeron 1.3GHz(*): $40
mboard(**): $58
64MB: $9
20GB: $45
Case, power: $11
DVD Drive: $31
controller ??

(*)Much lower than Pentium III in the 733 to 900 range
(**)Probably cheaper motherboads, searched for one that listed the Celeron at 1.3GHz

Total $257

Cheaper buying used stuff, or if you can get everything from one place, but you're going to be hard pressed to get below the xbox price unless you come across some sweet deals. You're right, higher CPU performance is cheaper. The vid chip in the xbox is somewhat geforce3 era but does some stuff that is only now showing up in pc graphics cards.

Re:Lets see here

[ameoba]

Who needs bargain bin cards? Many mid-range motherboards come with 5.1 sound on them these days.

Re:Lets see here

[photon317]

What would really make this interesting would be if someone would make it possible to run x-box games on such a box. Assuming the same graphics and sound chips the games should almost run unmodified, would just take a little bit of compatibility layer and perhaps a copy of the xbox rom?

Re:Lets see here

[zonker]

i'd think you'd need a processor that had a little better memory bandwidth though seeing as how the xbox has a unified memory architecture. i suppose this all depends on whether we are talking about a machine that could run actual xbox code or a similar machine that could run games similar to an xbox. it is my belief (unfounded maybe) that the xbox is a little underpowered on the cpu end but makes up for it with its ability to access the ram and gpu very quickly, moreso than a cheap celeron and standard gforce card would be able to do. i dunno though, since that is pure speculation...

Re:Lets see here

[a_peckover]

Not if you want to use a Celeron processor, they don't. The only boards that do Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding are N-Force 2 boards and they only support AMD processors.

Re:Lets see here

[Hast]

You probably won't see that happening very soon. The XBox is after all a UMA machine and is not not quite "a PC in a box".

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

yea cuz its impossible to find Athlon processors for under $50 huh? Frys had a mb and XP 2000 for $59 here, granted it didn't do 5.1 but I can't see it killing your price, espically since an athlonXP2000 would kill that 733.

Re:Lets see here

[bofkentucky]

you just need to decode D5.1, not encode, right?

Re:Lets see here

[a_peckover]

Not if you want to match the XBox. The XBox can take a game's positional audio and encode it in to a Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream on the fly, thanks to nVidia's Soundstorm technology. You can then connect the XBox to your surround sound equipment and play your games with full Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.

The same technology can be found on nVidia's nForce motherboards. PC soundcards just have 6 (5 speakers plus subwoofer) connectors on the back.

Re:Lets see here

[zero_offset]

As somebody else mentioned, it actually has Dolby 5.1 surround sound audio, but you're also missing a controller, the OS (sure you could get Linux for free, but then you'd have the problem of only having three decent games to play on it), as well as a GeForce that does HDTV, not to mention the capability of making your DVD player remotely controllable for only $25 (I suppose this last might be doable on a PC these days, I've seen it mentioned, I just don't know what it costs or what the remotes come with).

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

The XBox can take a game's positional audio and encode it in to a Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream on the fly, thanks to nVidia's Soundstorm technology.

You mean nVidia's Dolby Digital encoder, right? Just because they gave it some fancy name doesn't mean it's anything special, or tha nobody else has done it before.

Re:Lets see here

[mcgroarty]

Having 64MB of UMA isn't as good as having far more main core memory paired with a video card with 64MB or more.

Very few games bang on the texture or models with the CPU, so the AGP bus isn't really a choke point.

Re:Lets see here

[a_peckover]

Hmmmmm, done before where ? Okay, they gave it a fancy but I don't see any other motherboard chipsets or soundcards supporting Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding. If I am wrong, and such alternative products are available, I would certainly like to know.

Re:Lets see here

[Glonoinha]

My SoundBlaster Audigy does 5.1, easy.
Cool technology : yes.
Exclusive to the XBox : no.

Re:Lets see here

[jafuser]

I thought the XBox itself doesn't have an OS installed, and that the OS comes on each disc?

Re:Lets see here

[rkz]

5.1 sound cards are cheaper than a pack of cigs. look here

Re:Lets see here

[Glonoinha]

I thought the whole purpose of this exercise was a cheap Linux box. The only reason a /.'er admits to buying an XBox is to a) buy something MS is selling at a loss, and b) try and run Linux on it ... you mean the XBox plays games too?

Granted it wasn't explicitly stated in the OP, but I honestly thought the whole purpose of buying a $200 XBox (plus the cost of the mod chip) was to run Linux, particularly as one of many in a cluster (cheap supercomputer, in theory.)

Re:Lets see here

[Glonoinha]

The purpose (as I understand it) of this exercise is to see if hardware prices have come down enough that modding an XBox to run Linux is no longer profitable - meaning if we can build a machine of the same power for the same price it no longer holds the magic 'powerful machines really cheap because MicroSoft is selling them at a loss'.

We are not trying to recreate the game playing functionality of the XBox using today's PC hardware, we are trying to recreate the Linux platform available on a modded XBox cheaper than (or as cheap as) a modded XBox.

Thus Dolby 5.1 and playing moview on the DVD are not the primary concern - running Linux on wicked cheap ($250) machines is the primary concern.

Given that, dropping the uberSound and uberVideo in exchange for a faster CPU, faster NIC, more memory ... I think that we are now at that point if the intent is a machine that can be used for grunt work (Beowulf Cluster!). As a game / multimedia entertainment machine, it appears we are not there quite yet.

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

Scratch that "regular old sound card..." the Xbox does 5.1 digital audio. I don't think your bargin bin sound card can handle that one, can it?

Bargain bin sound cards have 5.1 digital audio these days. As do most motherboards.

Re:Lets see here

[zero_offset]

The xbox runs a modified version of Windows 2000.

Re:Lets see here

[zero_offset]

The original article said it is cheaper to build a PC comparable to the XBox specs?

Things like Dolby 5.1 surround-sound are part of the spec, and a big part of what the device can do, so I have to disagree strongly. Also kindly note that the wicked-cheap XBox now sells for only $170, so your target just moved farther away. :)

Re:Lets see here

[GeekWade]

I don't see why this would be too terribly difficult. The xbox is after all x86 with fixed ROM and hardware specs. One would think the folks like Bochs, VMWare, VirtualPC should be able to tweak some code to make it work. Drivers would need to be written and the ROM hacked, but that should be nothing to the xbox community. Actually if the guys at Plex86 could make it work it would be better, fake the proprietary stuff and let x86 calls run native.

My $.02

-Wade

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

The Audigy does 5.1, yes, but not Dolby Digital encoding. With Dolby Digital encoding, only one cable is required to connect to a Dolby Digital capable receiver, compared to several for analog 5.1.

Re:Lets see here

[DNS-and-BIND]

Does this include a controller? What about a bundled game?

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

Not an exact comparision, but I'm typing this on an AthlonXP 2000+ with 512MB ram & a 30GB HD. I'm about to replace the CDrom I temp. installed with a DVD/CD-RW drive. The MB has built-in 100Mbit ethernet, sound (D5.1), and video.

Total cost? I bought the basic unit with cpu, brand new, off eBay for $115. $55 for the ram, 30 to 40 GB drives are ~$50, the DVD/CD-RW ~$60. So total cost ready to hook to your monitor/KB/mouse and install Linux or (my fav) FreeBSD is ~$280. Drop the combo drive in favor of a plain DVD makes it ~$250. Granted, the video is only an S3 ProSavageDDR shared memory unit, but it's really not too bad, esp. factoring in the cost.

John Farmer

Re:Lets see here

[a_peckover]

That is 5.1 sound, not Dolby Digital 5.1. There's a world of difference.

Re:Lets see here

[ameoba]

Shit...

Future Crew's Second Reality did Dolby encoding on a fucking Gravis Ultrasound back in 92-94 on my 486.

Re:Lets see here

[Troed]

Xbox games will be up and playing on PCs within 5 months.

Xbox "emulator"

Re:Lets see here

[Anonymous Coward]

there's really no comparison here...the XBox is the XBox and the PC is the PC...different. alot of games on the Xbox don't come out on the PC...if they do, they utilize mouse and keyboard for gameplay(usually) PC games are usually cheaper (even if you aren't a pirate, ARGH!), but they require lots of time and hard-drive space to install/configure. it's all a matter of what you want and what you can do without...preference. to me, all consoles are an evil monopoly...different games/hardware for different systems. When they make a PS2 emulator that runs on linux that runs on XBox, i'll buy an XBox. it'll be even sweeter if i can use a PS2 controller! until then, i'll just use a PC.

Re:Lets see here

[smithmc]

Total $257

Um, does this include the cost of a Windows 2000 license? (Not sure whether or not I'm joking here...)

Re:Lets see here

[crisco]

good point.

If we're going to get nitpicky about xbox equivalancy (and I was about some of it, talking about exact graphics equivalents and the like) we have to include either the OS on the PC or the steps to get Linux on the xbox. Now that the software only mod is public we don't have to factor in a modchip if we want to run Linux on it. Now we can start thinking about labor costs - building the low cost PC we're talking about vs whatever mod we want to do with the xbox.

I really think it comes down to the purpose of the machine, you can't really build an xbox equivalent for the money. But if you want a general purpose computational machine, you can do better building a cheap Duron or Athlon or even Celeron machine. And it plays games too.

Including lawyers fees?

[anthony_dipierro]

Is this with or without the cost of defending yourself from a DMCA lawsuit?

Re:Including lawyers fees?

[cfallin]

Sorry if I'm going against the conventional Slashbot wisdom here, but what exactly about building a standard PC (note the original question - comparable specs, not an exact replica) is illegal under the DMCA?

Last I checked, it was quite easy to legally pick up a few PC parts and slap them in a case...

Re:Including lawyers fees?

[anthony_dipierro]

Sorry if I'm going against the conventional Slashbot wisdom here, but what exactly about building a standard PC (note the original question - comparable specs, not an exact replica) is illegal under the DMCA?

I was referring to the potential illegality of modding an X-box to run Linux.

Walmart PC

[MBCook]

Easy:

1. Go to walmart.com
2. Get a Microtel SYSMAR550 PC With 1.2 GHz Duron (without OS) for $200
3. Done

This PC has 128mb of ram (vs X-Box's 64), a 1.2 ghz processor (vs X-Box's 700mhz), 20 gig hard drive (vs X-Box's 8 gig).

It's worse than the X-Box because it doesn't include a monitor (where on the X-Box you can use a TV) and it doesn't have the 3D graphics. Also, it lacks the DVD drive.

It's BETTER than the X-Box in most ways, and you could give it a new graphics card and a DVD drive, but you already get a keyboard and mouse (would cost $20 maybe + $20 for a USB->X-Box adaptor) so it's entirely possible. The Microtel also has parallel and serial ports, audio in, speakers, and it has 2 PCI slots (it would take one to upgrade the graphics) so you could still put in a TV tuner or something.

So for $200 you get a VERY nice PC (compared to anything I have, MORE than enough to do anything including games, all you'd need is a better graphics card). Compare that to $178 for an X-Box (according to Walmart.com) and you have your comparision.

You could do much better if you were to go for that MS pays (since they take a hit on every X-Box, as has already been pointed out).

Re:Walmart PC

[Anonym0us Cow Herd]

3. Done

Didn't you mean...

3. Profit!

Re:Walmart PC

[greenhide]

So for $200 you get a VERY nice PC

Unless Microtel has significantly changed its business plan (make really, really crappy computers for dirt cheap), you are *NOT* buying a nice PC. The Microtel that I used -- and granted, it has been a few years -- was a total piece of junk.

I think that a lot of people in this discussion are assuming that once you've met the basic specs -- a certain speed CPU, a certain amount of ram, a certain amount of hard drive space -- that they've created the equivalent of the XBox. I've never used the XBox myself, but one thing I haven't heard anyone complaining about is software or hardware glitches with the XBox. The XBox appears, at least, to have been specially engineered to perform extremely well and to have a high reliability. There's not that kind of guarantee with bargain basement (like, the scary basement where all the dead bodies are) computer systems, or with systems kludged together with the cheapest possible hardware available.

It's been established elsewhere that MS is probably losing money on the hardware costs of the XBox. My guess is they've taken a cue from their current software licenses = Profit! business model. If they could make the XBox with better specs for less, they probably would. Don't take this as advice from me to Mod the XBox illegally -- hear that, Mr. Gates? I warned 'em! -- but right now it's probably not cheaper to build your own.

Oh dear god

[nickgrieve]

This is utterly pointless. Who cares?

the x-box/Linux thing is not, and has not and never will be about a cheap PC, it about getting Linux to run on something its not supposed to.

as for a $PC $x-box they are different beasts, one has a Mobo that does USB/RS232/Parallel/eth/etc... the other is a 3D accelerator card with a cpu onboard...

Your asking if people can find a substitute for apple juice made from oranges.

Re:Oh dear god

[budn3kkid]

This is utterly pointless. Who cares?
Some people do, either for the sake of comparison/analysis or just feeling like taking a jab at M$ for building something cheaper than what they're selling, which DON'T require a mod-chip.

the x-box/Linux thing is not, and has not and never will be about a cheap PC, it about getting Linux to run on something its not supposed to.

Ok, how about the other way around? Building a cheaper XBox from readily available PC parts to run using XBox's firmware bios? To run XBox games 'out-of-the-box' so to speak, just by popping in the XBox DVD disc. Any takers? :)
(Of course, bonus M$ Lawyers coming after your a$$ bundled FOC hehe)

as for a $PC $x-box they are different beasts, one has a Mobo that does USB/RS232/Parallel/eth/etc... the other is a 3D accelerator card with a cpu onboard...

How about an AMD CPU on-board an nVidia nForce2 mobo? that would work... :)

Your asking if people can find a substitute for apple juice made from oranges.
Not if said apple-juice is made from genetically engineered oranges!

BuDn3kkID

Re:Oh dear god

[agendi]

If Microsoft are selling them at such a loss (which I believe they admit that they are) wouldn't the best thing that we can do be to all go out and buy one and turn it into a linux-based router or firewall or coffee machine etc. and help reduce MS profit margins? Don't buy a single game, sell (give away) the ones that it comes with by default (if it does these days) thereby denying futher cuts from the games that others might buy for new.

Just a thought. btw I have an XBox and think they are pretty neat - they introduced me to the world of console gaming and that can't be all that bad. Right?

Something comparable

[Alpha27]

Here are some recommendations for your comparable box.

• Shuttle SV-25 $185: case with 150W power suppley; motherboard with tv-out; nic; audio (surround sound); keyboard/video/mouse connections
• memory chip 64MB: $13
• hard drive 20GB: $50
• cpu celeron 700-1,400 Mhz: $40

Total comes to about $290.

An Xbox is a modified celeron 733, with 64MB and 8GB HD. Not sure about the nic built into an xbox, I have a PS2. =)

You could also check out the walmart machines which use the VIA boards/chips and sell as low as $200.

Note, the shuttle tends to be higher price than buying a seperate case and board, so I would say shop around.

Re:Something comparable

[Hast]

Not sure about the nic built into an xbox, I have a PS2.

The XBox has a built in NIC. (10/100)

And if you want to get really comparative you should provide RGB-out and SPDIF asd well. (It cost a little extra on the XBox to get that, but the quality is quite different.)

Its even cheaper

[metalhed77]

If you visit www.xbox.com its only $179 , a bit harder to beat now eh? Plus the xbox has multimedia features, a special video card for instance, that makes it ideal for home theater use. That being said, you can always build it for less at www.pricewatch.com , of course it'll be butt fugly with a nasty case, and probably not as quiet.

Re:Its even cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

You're still stuck with a single purpose MICROSOFT piece of hardware that does nothing but plays stupid video games (name one videogame on xbox that makes it worth the trouble... in fact name ANY game on ANY console that makes ANY OF THEM WORTH THE TROUBLE).

Re:Its even cheaper

[ameoba]

The big problem with a modded xbox is that it's only got 64MB of memory, and you can't upgrade that. A modern desktop distro is going to want to use 128MB or more. With only 64MB of ram, the machine's not good for doing much of anything too interesting.

Re:Its even cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to go install one of the Redhat/Mandrake/[Insert bloat here] distros, then yes, 64MB is going to be quite low. But if you're going to do something specific, then you can cut all of that bloat out, and install a purpose built distro or slackware/debian type distros where you only install what you want.

Re:Its even cheaper

[sean1121]

The problem is that out of the box the xbox isn't that useful, for $179 all you get is the hardware. At the minimum you'll need a mod chip which will run you about $50 + shipping, so the price is now up to $229. Also, you'll need more than the one controller that comes with it (unless you like playing with yourself!) so thats another $30 a piece. And if you want to play any games on your liberated xbox thats another $50 * # of games. The real price is much closer to $250 - $300.

Re:Its even cheaper

[Mikey-San]

You don't need a mod chip to run unsigned code on an Xbox:

http://www.inquirerinside.com/default.aspx?artic le =8942

-$50, Uninformed

Re:Its even cheaper

[DNS-and-BIND]

64 megs is plenty. Especially under linux, for pete's sake...

pricewatch

[enigmatichmachine]

you can get a duron 950 128 megs ram, surround sound speakers, tv out, eth. modem, cdrom, 20 gig drive for 180 pluss shipping. thats identical to an x box in terms of price, signifigantly faster. and it doesn't have that ugly x box logo all over it...
oh, and a year from now its 20 bucks to double its speed, thats a big part too.

Re:pricewatch

[ameoba]

You forgot the video; I doubt anything at that price point is going to have worthwhile onboard video, so you're going to want to drop another $50 or so to get a better GPU.

Try this...

[Anonymous Coward]

From NewEgg.com:

* MSI motherboard w/ generic "3D" video - $50
* Athlon XP 1700+ CPU - $45
* Kingston 128MB SDRAM - $24
* Seagate Barracuda 30GB 7200RPM drive - $50
* Dynapower METIS ATX Mid-Tower /w 300watt PSU - $22
* NEC 52x CD-ROM drive - $15

~ $206.

This isn't skimping on things here - you can probably get a cheaper CPU, hard drive as well. FYI, a DVD drive is only $15 more.

And this configuration should pretty much blow the Xbox out of the water for anything *but* games. And if you're thinking about modding the Xbox you probably won't be playing games on it.

Re:Try this...

[KurdtX]

* MSI motherboard w/ generic "3D" video - $50
* Athlon XP 1700+ CPU - $45
* Kingston 128MB SDRAM - $24
* Seagate Barracuda 30GB 7200RPM drive - $50
* Dynapower METIS ATX Mid-Tower /w 300watt PSU - $22
* NEC 52x CD-ROM drive - $15

Realizing you don't have to make Linux run on something "just 'cause it's there" - $priceless

Here's the problem...

[maunleon]

PC games are made to run on a PC.. they usually assume keyboards, mice, etc. They get launched from an OS with a generic user interface.

XBox games are made to run from an appliance-type PC.

So, even if you were to create a PC as cheap as the X-box, unless it ran X-Box games, you would be crippled by the PC games. I may be okay with a large computer next to my TV, but I really do not want a keyboard there as well, just to launch and manage games.

Re:Here's the problem...

[XO]

So, what is the problem with running X-Box games on the PC? Since the X-Box is just a slightly modified PC.. what stops a regular PC from running X-Box games? hmm...

Re:Here's the problem...

[TriCCer]

A largely specialised gpu from nvidia with slightly different instructions than the standard models (extra cpu time to convert) for one thing.

Can the XBox play DVDs w/o additional hardware?

[lightspawn]

I thought you needed to buy the remote for that.

Re:Can the XBox play DVDs w/o additional hardware?

[Hast]

Yes, you need the remote. Or you need to mod it.

Re:Can the XBox play DVDs w/o additional hardware?

[MBCook]

Yes, you need the remote to buy DVDs, but the drive is a DVD drive so if you were to run Linux on it you could play DVDs that way or just read data DVDs. I'm just trying to make things the same for the hardware, not neccessarily the software.

Your sig

[Synic]

Only people who suck at vi and emacs would say such a thing.

Re:Your sig

[tundog]

I've been using vi for a lot of embedded programming lately. Is there a way to cut and paste without having to cut the entire line (e.g. just cut and paste a word from one line into the middle of another line)?

Re:Your sig

[aridhol]

Move to the beginning of the word, then either 'dw' for cut or 'yw' for copy, then go to the new location and 'p'.

Re:Your sig

[GigsVT]

In addition to the dw yw that the other poster pointed out, try hitting v. You will then be in visual mode where you can use the nav keys to select what you want to cut or copy, then after selecting hit y or d. This also works with multiline selections, so you don't have to count lines.

Why not build a Dreamcast-Like PC

[sirmikester]

In the spirit of recreating an xbox, why don't we also recreate a Dreamcast-like PC setup. Its development community was just about as active as the xbox's is today, plus it ran windows CE.. Its hardware specs were: - 128 Bit custom hitachi cpu (equivalent of Pentium II?) - NEC PowerVR2 Graphics card (I'm sure you can an equivalent at a used computer parts store) - 16 megs of ram - 12x cdrom - no harddrive - add on modem/network card. IMHO I think all would cost about 20 bucks, but getting it to run would suck... i guess you could use Knoppix!

Re:Why not build a Dreamcast-Like PC

[Praetor11]

add on modem/network card.

Hello, the modem was built in-- you only had to add the network card! And people said the Dreamcast wasn't any good..... haha

Re:Why not build a Dreamcast-Like PC

[sirmikester]

Fine, add 50 cents to the above price

You Go

[blazerw11]

This is utterly pointless. Who cares?

Yeah and anybody else who's curious about something that I and the parent poster think is boring, just don't post your questions where we might be able to see it and not care enough about your pointless question that we feel the need to point out how pointless your questions is and how we really don't care about it.

Whatever, I don't care, it's all pointless.

Re:You Go

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you being sar-carstic or something, my son? That's one of my least favorite things, that happens to be. Sar-carsm.

I was walking a dog, and this bloke, he comes to me and says, "Nice day, innit?" But it wasn't. It wasn't a nice day. It was a little bit cloudy. Which makes him very sar-carstic. So acting as if nothing would happen, I took his head, right, put it in me mouth, right, acting dead casual-like, clamped me teeth, and BIT HIS HEAD OFF!! Cause I hate people being sar-carstic. /obscure brit comedy

Re:You Go

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder it's obscure, that was about as funny as testicular cancer.

Re:You Go

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

Thanks, at this point I need to call procurement and ask for a new monitor without coffee and snot on it. Coffee stings coming out your nose, did you know that?

Re:You Go

[Placido]

Yeah and anybody else who's curious about something that I and the parent poster think is boring, just don't post your questions where we might be able to see it and not care enough about your pointless question that we feel the need to point out how pointless your questions is and how we really don't care about it.

Whatever, I don't care, it's all pointless.

Good point!


Sorry.

Pretty darn close.

[zsazsa]

$276 for a system specced out at Newegg.com (yes, there are cheaper places online, but none as reputable). The kicker is video - most of the posts I've seen on this thread have generic onboard video, which is easily outclassed by the Xbox. This system would have been competitive pricewise if it didn't need a GF3/GF4 class video card with TV out.

Here's the specs. Here's a mirrored copy of the cart if you feel like shopping.

Dynapower Model# METIS CS-I3ALB.701 (Light-Blue) ATX MID-TOWER CASE w/ 300W POWER SUPPLY -2 x USB RETAIL : $22.00
Aopen Internal EIDE 16X DVD ROM / 40X Max CD-ROM Drive Beige RETAIL : $28.00
Seagate 30GB 7200rpm EIDE Hard Drive Barracuda V ST330013A - OEM : $50.00
SimpleTech (Simple Technologies) 128MB DDR PC2100 - OEM : $22.00
ECS K7S5A PRO USB 2.0 SiS® 735 SOCKET A MOTHERBOARD - RETAIL Back Plate Included : $47.00
AMD DURON 1.2GHZ Socket A PGA Processor -OEM : $34.00
VGA CHAINTECH A-GX20 TI-4200 64MB 8X VGA & TV-OUT. RETAIL BOX : $95.00

Subtotal : $298.00

It's pretty nice, but nothing beats getting a nice computer in a pretty box and with a fun controller for $179, subsidized by Bill Gates himself.

Re:Pretty darn close.

[Anonymous Coward]

The kicker is video

XBox GPU isn't supported under Linux, so that's a non-issue.

I'll try...

[benjamindees]

Socket 370 Motherboard: $25

Celeron 733: $32

128MB Memory: $32

nVidia Geforce 4: $47

DVD-ROM: $28

Case w/ 300W PS: $23

20GB 7200 RPM HD: $57

4 Channel Sound Card: $8

Total: $252

Of course, the XBox has a 5.1 channel sound card, but, other than that, this box would be superior. Not as cheap, though.

Re:I'll try...

[tigersha]

THat is a Geforce 4 MX; which is a crap video card. Due to marketing by NVidia the MX is about as fast as a Geforce 2. Buy a Ti

Re:I'll try...

[legojenn]

Due to marketing by NVidia the MX is about as fast as a Geforce 2.

I'm confused. How does marketing cause the card to run slower?

Re:I'll try...

[tigersha]

When NVidia brought out the Geforce 4 they had 2 series of cards: the 440 MX and Ti cards (the 4200, 4400 and 4600). The Ti cards were (and still are) pretty fast. The differenc elies mostly in the clockspeed. The MX cards, however, are pretty much the same as the previous Geforce 2/3 things with a higher clockspeed. But NVidia called them all Geforce 4 for some reason.

Re:I'll try...

[benjamindees]

Okay, for anyone who actually wants this system to work, it needs DDR Memory for $23 instead of that stuff above.

It also needs a $6 heat sink.

And, if you want it to really be comparable to the XBox, you need a $5 network card.

Re:I'll try...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm confused. How does marketing cause the card to run slower

don't you get it?

marketing causes the mice to run slower...you know...the ones that create the energy in the MX cards...

My attempt.

[MoOsEb0y]

Coming from newegg.com,

METIS CS-I3ALB.701 (Light-Blue) ATX MID-TOWER CASE w/ 300W POWER SUPPLY -2 x USB RETAIL
$22.00

Seagate 30GB 7200rpm EIDE Hard Drive Barracuda V ST330013A - OEM
$50.00

SimpleTech (Simple Technologies) 128MB DDR PC2100 - OEM
$22.00

Shuttle Motherboard for AMD processors Micro ATX, Model MN31N - Retail (nForce2 Chipset with a geforce 4 onboard)
$90.00

AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.1GHz 200MHz Bus Socket A PGA Processor
$35.00

Coolermaster DP5-6I11A HSF
$4

Total:
$223.00

Re:My attempt.

[Anonymous Coward]

The onboard geforce4 actually performs more like a geforce2... so you will really want to replace that with a real AGP card (probably a fast geforce2 or a ff4 ti4200).

Also, you can cut about $20 from the motherboard if you went for something like an A7N8X... admittedly not uATX, but you didn't get a uATX case so that doesn't matter much.

Forgetting something?

[MoOsEb0y]

Like maybe a heatsink and fan for your processor? You did list an OEM processor after all.

Re:Forgetting something?

[zsazsa]

Crap! So that's why I've been frying CPUs left and right....

Easy - buy a Mac

[skinfitz]

Oh no - wait...

Re:Easy - buy a Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

How can this be off topic dickhead mac owning moderator?

Umm, the Xbox plays games

[zaad]

It seems odd that people are leaving out this very important fact. Sure, you can build faster PC's for just a tad over the price of the Xbox. But what you can't do on your spiffy new PC is to play the console games that you can on your modded Xbox.

So with a modded Xbox, you get a pretty decent gaming console (with a game controller - no one seemed to factor this into their price either), a multimedia system (especially if you buy the remote), or a Linux box (probably for playing MAME games - 64MB of RAM isn't spiff-o-riffic if you plan to run X).

This is not even mentioning the "sticking it to Microsoft" coolness factor too.

Either way, there are reason why you might consider modding a Xbox instead of building a PC.

Re:Umm, the Xbox plays games

[Atrahasis]

64MB is plenty to run X. As long as you don't run KDE or Gnome, that is.

Re:Umm, the Xbox plays games

[snowtigger]

Maybe slightly offtopic, but I thougt people might be interested anyway. I was when i first heard of this

64MB of RAM isn't spiff-o-riffic if you plan to run X

Right. But if you use the XBox as a server (ie no display physically connected), you do not need an X server running on the XBox. It only runs on the client side, such as your workstation/PC/whatever.

As long as the X libraries as installed on the XBox, it can send the windows over the network wherever you want

Missing something...

[shepd]

XBOX Controller + USB adapter cable: $30
USB plate (to match XBOXes 4 ports): $10
Ability to start a game right away without hassle: Priceless...

Re:Missing something...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need a USB adapter cable - XBox plugs are USB anyway - they even use the same wire colours. Grab a few standard USB cables, cut and paste the ends onto you desired hardware.

Nforce Based System For Under $179

[docstrange]

Ok, it's a geforce MX, but heck...... it's close enough and has more cpu / ram / hd than a xbox for the same price.

$59 - Nforce Board - Has onboard 5.1 Sound/ Network / Geforce Graphics - Pricewatch.com

$30 - Athlon 1.1ghz - Pricewatch.com

$13 - PC2100 DDR 128MB - Pricewatch.com

$48 - 40GB Drive - Pricewatch.com

$151 and all we need is a Power supply. I know of a lot of cheap power supplies for less than the remainder.

Re:Nforce Based System For Under $179

[emo boy]

and a case. and some fans if you're smart.

err...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you know how to get a P3/4/Athlon to work with the xbox bus architecture, you're screwed. That's the killer part of the xbox - it's busses are more twisted than Bush's foreign policy.

You might as well ask me to mix you a white russian using nothing but house bricks and rusty nails.

X-Box games are free too

[DrSkwid]

and they come on DVD so more content for free = better value

no cd-keys to fanny about with either

Try a smaller distro

[BoomerSooner]

Slackware 3.3! I run it on a 486/25 w/8MB RAM and 125MB HD. XWindows and all.

Didn't Comodore64 already do this?

[ivanmarsh]

8^)

I don't think that covers it

[Da VinMan]

Umm... where is your DVD drive and game controller? Also, does the Nforce board have a TV out?

Not as easy as it looks is it?!

Re:I don't think that covers it

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you might want a case to put all those parts into. :)

Read the OP

[Glonoinha]

First sentence : "Every time the topic of Linux on the XBox ..."

This isn't about recreating the gaming experience of the XBox on a cheap PC. It is about no longer needing to buy the $220 XBox + mod chip to run Linux.

Hence leaving out the 5.1 sound and a uberVideo subsystem (both of which are pretty much wasted on an XBox running Linux - by and large.)

Re:Read the OP

[dissy]

> Hence leaving out the 5.1 sound and a uberVideo subsystem (both of which are
> pretty much wasted on an XBox running Linux - by and large.)

Why would those be wasted on a linux kernel running on a video game console?
Those piece of hardware are the REASON you are running linux on the thing in the first place.

If you were only putting linux on it to use as a server or a workstation, then yes, but that would be stupid as hell.
If you want a server, build a server. If you want a workstation, build a workstation.

The reason to put linux on an xbox, is to play games on your xbox.

Lets put it this way.
How many people right now can write code for the xbox? Very very few.
How many people right now can write a linux game? Lots.

SO, by putting linux on an xbox, you have changed the answer to the first question to match that of the second.

But it would be very hard to play a video game with no video card or sound card, as you suggest :)

Re:Read the OP

[Glonoinha]

What games can effectively be played on Linux on the XBox?

This is a serious question, BTW, and I do not know the answer.

Heck for all I know the game of 'run Linux on an XBox' is the best game of all /grin

Re:Read the OP

[dissy]

> What games can effectively be played on Linux on the XBox?

Well since linux doesnt yet run on an unmod'ed xbox, none of course.

Again, i said, if one knows how to program for linux, and knows how to make games, one can MAKE games for the xbox.

Instead of reverse engeneering the xbox controller, you read /dev/js0-3 just like now. Instead of figuring out how to access the dvd through the drm chips, you just read/write to /dev/cdrom

Right now noone can use linux on the xbox, so of course noone has made any games for it. Thats like asking what games have people coded that run on super-new-unreleased-cuz-hardware-doesnt-exist-con sole-system-3000
If it doesnt exist, none :)

The point of a console system is you take your cd (or dvd in this case) to a buddys house, drop it in his console, and play.
Linux on the xbox would allow thousands upon thousands of developers to do that. Right now not only is it expensive cost wise, but its expensive learning wise, as you are forced to use an os or kernel MS provides, so you have to learn how to use it. Granted being a form of windows im sure alot of people already know how to code for it, but this is slashdot. (I can write linux software, i can not write windows software, thus why I would want linux on xbox)

For an example, I have used the Sega Dreamcast linux kernel ports for just this reason. My first game (just a testing the waters kinda thing) was a rewrite of dopewars for linux on dreamcast.
Granted thats a stupid game, but I did it without making a dime or spending one, unlike how MS wants game development to proceed.

Re:Read the OP

[Joe Tie.]

Why would those be wasted on a linux kernel running on a video game console?

No 3D accelerated drivers for NVIDIA's hardware in the xbox.

The reason to put linux on an xbox, is to play games on your xbox.

I agree, which is why I personally don't care about Linux on the xbox, beyond the 'Huh, that's neat' appeal.

Pointless points

[kupci]

Getting linux to run on something it's not supposed to? nah, it's about "hacking". One of the cool things about Linux is it's ability to run on a variety of platforms, from handhelds to mainframes to TiVo boxes to you name it. So "not supposed to run on" is not part of the Linux vocabulary.

Secondly, getting an x-box for $179 and using that as a cheap pc is definitely a draw

Thirdly, the x-box does have a network interface, for online gaming.

thoughts on the xbox

[bagofcrap]

some random thoughts on this: "..comparable to the XBox..." depends on what you mean by comparable. On specs only, it seems most posts seem to go somewhere like 30-80 over $200. If you give and take a bit, better hd, lesser gfx, you can get right around $200, plus $30 for a controller if you'd like one. xbox is now $179.99, plus $4.99 for 007:AUF rental (for software mod... assume you have a comp with a cd-bootable drive and an ide setup), is $184.98, round up to $200 after tax(8%).

• the 5.1 sound setup - some of us are stuck in a 2 speaker world, some of aren't, but price of a 5.1 decode is cheap.
• the 64 ram issue - on the xbox it is shared system/video which confers its own advantages and disadvantages
• the tv out - I'd say this is the part that does it, unless you can find a cheap tv-out geforce2 comparable card.

y'know, if only there was a cheap compu-tar that could run windows games, then i could get rid of my windows partition... microsoft could make it, throw win2k or xp, call it an xp-box... err hold on...

seriously though, it seems that normal windows games on an xbox without too much work would be its greatest attraction... throw a keyboard less full screen launcher, sort of like win3.1 had, a dedicated windows gaming box... no more games argument for keeping a windows partition on your desktop.

although ps2 and xbox would now be in direct competition with xbox->everquest (ignoring linux->wine->everquest for now) vs ps2->everquest

Very Similar to XBOX sytem

[satterth]

These are Canadain prices, and for ease of installation I went with a non-solder mod chip.

Here they are (PC)

$ 99.00 ASUS A7N266-vm

$ 45.50 AMD Duron 1.1 GHz , 200FSB, Integ 192K, Socket A, OEM

$ 18.00 DDR 266MHZ PC2100 128MB

$ 64.00 Maxtor 20gb 5400rpm ata100

$ 29.95 Atx SuperCase 132 with Front USB 300w

$ 44.99 Artec dhi-g40 16x dvd ide cd rom

$ 29.00 Logitech WingMan Action USB Gamepad

$330.44 TOTAL

And the Xbox and mod chip

$250.00 Xbox Console

$ 90.00 No-solder Mod Chip

$340.00 TOTAL

By the time you factor in a MOD chip prices are quite similar.

but wait.......

[Anonymous Coward]

The real question is, is anyone able to get a PC (cheap or otherwise) to PLAY XBox games?

Lots of people have PCs, right specs or otherwise, where's the XBox "enabler" software ??? (emulator doesn't sound right in this context)

I want to play Xbox games on my existing PC!!! Let me worry if I've got the right specs.

what about the software ?

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

all those nifty PC with gaming power comparable to the xbox will need an OS in order to run.

even if you go with gnu/linux, it'll nedd wineX (which costs money) or the machine will have limited gaming capabilities.

Re:what about the software ?

[Anonymous Coward]

...the point is to run linux on the thing.

WINE (yeah, the real deal) doesn't cost anything, just download and install the latest tarball every month.

Wal-Mart

[BenTheDewpendent]

Walmart has those under $200 lindows boxes avaialble here

• 1.2Ghz
  
• 128MB Ram
  
• 20Gig HD
  
• CD-ROM
  
  • 
    I'ts missing a couple things yes but its still a decent system for the price.

Console games

[yerricde]

But what you can't do on your spiffy new PC is to play the console games that you can on your modded Xbox.

On a PC with similar specs to the Xbox (plus a PlayStation controller and a PS->PC adapter such as the EMS USB2, which handles two controllers), I can play dumps of at least all my NES, Game Boy, Super NES, and GBA games. There are more NES and Super NES games in my neighbor's collection than Xbox-exclusive titles in existence.

So with a modded Xbox, you get ... a multimedia system (especially if you buy the remote)

Multi? It's just a DVD player. It can't play DivX, VCD, or Flash movies without a mod chip.

You're forgetting something...

[HomerNet]

...Microsoft is eating a $200-300 loss on ever Xbox console they "sell." (more like "give away")