DMCA-Alikes Sweep Europe

D4C5CE writes "The number of European countries enacting their ignorance of the sad experiences from Four Years under the DMCA has just risen to 5, as the Upper House (Bundesrat, incidentally) of the German Parliament on Friday failed to veto (sorry, some press releases are only available in heavily spin-doctored German Legalese at this point in time) and is hence considered to have consented to the adoption by the Lower House (Bundestag) of a federal law implementing the dreaded DMCA's European sibling known as EU Copyright Directive 2001/29/EC." Read on for more on the copyright laws being considered around the EU.

D4C5CE continues: "Earlier implementations have been reported from Austria, Denmark, Greece and Italy.
Legal scholars consider the directive itself an invalid "monstrosity", and the German law unconstitutional. In fact, this legislation is viewed as so terribly awful that even from the U.S., the EFF tried to prevent it in a rare intervention overseas.

Declaring that the circumvention rather than the use of Copy Protection is a Crime, the German parliament threatens to make things even worse by adopting a "second stage" with further steps to impose DRM and additional levies later this year, but unsurprisingly, all of the issues that DMCA-style laws have become notorious for are already there: Overbreadth, overprotection of technical measures, and Chilling Effects aplenty.

Record companies eagerly awaiting this "lex Bertelsmann" have already caused ISPs to send out warning letters to P2P users for alleged copyright infringement, and are expected to take legal action against individual users of file-sharing networks, following in the footsteps of RIAA.

Confirming the fears expressed by Alan Cox on Slashdot, computer gurus will soon find no place left to go even on the European side of the pond, and the Free-X "Independence Day" XBox exploit posted by one brave German just in time before this dismal day may well have been one of the very last legal disclosures in this part of the world as well."

Comments

Say it together now....

[Madsci]

Ich bin ein Evil Pawn of Hillary Rosen.

Not Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

The number of European countries enacting their ignorance..

No, it is not ignorance, it is Corporate Control. And don't fool yourself, both left and right alike are controlled by corporations, in almost every country.

Re:Not Ignorance

[kramer2718]

I do agree that this legislation has passed because of the coporate control of the politicians. However, it is the people's ignorance of the issues that has allowed these laws to pass. Of course much of that ignorance is due to corporate control of the media.

I do think that you should be a little careful in saying that both the laft and right are controlled by corporations. For instance, greenpiece and Tim McVey (the left and right respectively) are not controlled by corporations. I think you mean that all politicians are controlled by corporations.

Re:Not Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, good point, I was referring to political parties. I wouldn't be surprised if greenpeace has some corporate influence though, they certainly operate on a 'corporate hierachical model' too (having a global CEO and the like).

Re:Not Ignorance

[Halo1]

I completely agree with you. The FFII unfortunately didn't exist yet when this directive went through the European Parliament and there was (almost?) no organised lobbying or protest. Now the FFII does exist however and is actively working on preventing software patents from being legalised in Europe.

I personally went to the EP for 3 days last week and there really are an incredible amount of MEPs who did not have any idea at all about how bad the current proposal is and who became quite supportive of us after we explained the situation to them. Informing politicians is not the job of the media, but largely of their assistants. Informing the assistants is a job of lobbying groups and individuals.

If you don't contact any politicians or their assistants, you cannot expect them to hear your concerns (although it would be really nice, of course). They vote on about 60 dossiers per week in the EP, so they just don't have the time to go actively looking for information about each and every one of those. Each party has its own specialist for different subjects. The specialists from each faction then create a voting list together, which more often than not is followed blindly by the rest of the faction (since they don't know anything about the dossier).

This is obviously not an ideal situation, since those specialists often have an agenda to push. So informing as many politicians as possible about your point of view is indeed what is necessary. Some will refer you to their local specialist, but most certainly not all of them.

Re:Not Ignorance

[dermond]

left? well depends on what you call "left". social democrats and european green parties are not left. they are center at best....

Re:Not Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

>social democrats and european green parties are not left.

They are. Communist and so on are extreme left...

Re:Not Ignorance

[CrazyDuke]

Actually, extreme bottom left. Communism and Fascism AKA Corporatism are the left and the right (respectively) of Authoritarianism. Communism is not extreme left because communist government does not offer nearly as much support and freedom for its people as, say, a "democrat" or even a "socialist" government.

Re:Not Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

Not so much corporate control in this case as bureaucratic control. All the EU memeber-countries are treaty-bound to pass enabling legislation, implementing the "directives" coming from Brussells. It's a European equivalent to the US Federal Governmenent telling the states what they'll be allowed to do.

too far

[Fux the Pengiun]

WOW. This is too far even for me. I've posted several times on Slashdot in favor of limited DRM, simply out of concern for artists, but from the links the submitter provided, it's obvious the EU has gone too far. Check the "EU Copyright Directive Link".

Violation or suspected violation of international copyright may result in a fine of 2,000 Euros, or imprisionment of a term not to exceed nine months.

Look, I'm all for digital rights, but that's going too far. Jail time? Maybe an overnight stay with Bubba in cell block 3 will convince some college student that piracy is wrong, but this is too much. Ruining somebody's life because they didn't pay Sir Mixalot for downloading "baby got back?" Damn, that's harsh! And I thought Europe would be more enlightened than that. Oh well...just goes to show you...no place is safe these days.

Re:too far

[shepd]

>Look, I'm all for digital rights, but that's going too far. Jail time? Maybe an overnight stay with Bubba in cell block 3 will convince some college student that piracy is wrong, but this is too much. Ruining somebody's life because they didn't pay Sir Mixalot for downloading "baby got back?

9 months and 2,000 euros is nothing. Watch the FBI warning at the end of your next rental if you want to know what real piracy payback is. 5 years of pound me in the ass prison, and $250k fines.

And you supported this? This is pretty standard right now, worldwide, and has been so for, oh, I think at least 2 decades.

Re:too far

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMCA was just a prototype. The media cartels have learned that pesky things like having to prove guilt can reduce the laws' effectiveness.

This is particularly useful in Europe, because many European countries don't (yet) have the same corporate-friendly civil law as Europe. Under UK law, for example, the RIAA would be liable for damages and defense costs whenever it loses one of its frivolous lawsuit against college students who write search engines.

Re:too far

[olman]

The directive simply has no such clause. You didn't even say which memeber state has that gem in their legislation.. Germany?

Re:too far

[jkrise]

And I thought Europe would be more enlightened than that. Oh well...just goes to show you...no place is safe these days.

If you think long and hard enough, maybe you'd come to the conclusion that Asia is the safest place to be in? Less hypocrisy, more actual freedom, more talent, more fulfilment. Time to move?

Let the falmes begin.

Re:too far

[AftanGustur]

Look, I'm all for digital rights, but that's going too far. Jail time? Maybe an overnight stay with Bubba in cell block 3 will convince some college student that piracy is wrong, but this is too much. Ruining somebody's life because they didn't pay Sir Mixalot for downloading "baby got back?"

Specially when you look at the facts, this is just an attemptof badly run megacorporations to enforce their failed business model. Nobody expects all current filesharers to be put in jail because of this (there are millions).

This is just an attempt to use "crime as a copy protection", and for that they are willing to ruin a few peoples lifes.

Today 214 years ago At 3:00 PM (in the year 1789) a crowd of angry citizens stormed the Bastille in Paris, a fortress prison, the Bastille was symbol of the oppression of the people and king Louis the XVI king of France was about to see his last days as the ruler of France.

And all those freedom won on that day are slowly being taken away..

Re:too far

[jez9999]

And non-Latin languages that are horrificly difficult for Westerners to learn. Ah, when will the world speak English? :-) Or a universal translator would do.

Re:too far

[jez9999]

Heh. Why this isn't the worldwide standard by now is beyond me. When my dad told me about this (he's a solicitor), it seemed prefectly logical to me. You sue someone and lose, the logical conclusion is that your case should never have been taken to court, so *of course* you should have to pay the defendent's defence costs. Otherwise you could just take people to court to bankrupt them, right? Unfortunately, this seems to have been overlooked in the US system.

Re:too far

[cpt kangarooski]

Losing HARDLY means that your case never should have gone to court. Only in an egregious case is that true. The truth is that most cases could turn out either way. If a jury could reasonably decide in favor of either party, perhaps you don't want the case brought out of a desire to not backlog the courts, but it was nevertheless a valid dispute. And when judges could go either way, and various levels of the courts reverse themselves, and the appellate votes are split, there is DEFINATELY a valid case. Besides which, unless the case is pretty egregious, and really never had any chance at all, how are the parties supposed to have such great legal minds as to know how things will turn out in advance?

No offense, but your dad seems to have more of a black and white of a view of things than seems healthy for a lawyer.

Re:too far

[iabervon]

Hmm... I suspect that every executive of an RIAA company has personally violated my copyright. I suspect that all of the German legislators have, too. Perhaps you suspect something similar...

Of course, some RIAA companies have been convicted of massive copyright violation in the past (on song lyrics, for which they failed to pay royalties to the owners), so it wouldn't be too surprising if they actually had copyright violations sufficient to put them away for life.

Re:too far

[jez9999]

I never said it was my dad's opinion. It's MY opinion that the 'loser pays winner's costs' (that includes if the defendant loses, too) is by far the most sensible system. Cases where both parties could reasonably win are very rare; most of the time, it's pretty likely that one of the other is going to win, and has the stroner case. If that's the defendant, they should settle out of court. If that's the plaintiff, they should *pay the defendant's legal fees* because they should've realised their case was weak and never brought it to court, causing the defendant emotional stress and financial loss.

OK, it might deter the odd prosecution on cost grounds, but it's a darn sight better than the US alternative, and it's not like we don't already have enough lawsuits, is it??

Re:too far

[jez9999]

Sorry, slight mistake. What I meant to say in that post was: If that's the plaintiff, they should realise their case is weak, and never bring it to court. Great way of deterring frivoulous lawsuits.

Re:too far

[the_2nd_coming]

yeah, I here China is realy great about freedom these days.

Re:too far

[cpt kangarooski]

Well the problem here is that in the US virtually all possible cases are never brought. Those that begin to get anywhere are almost always dropped or settled out of court. Only a teeny tiny fraction of cases ever make it to court to begin with. Of those that are suitable for jury resolution, a fair number could go either way. If they can't, the judge will issue a summary judgment that will stand on appeal.

There really is not a big problem in the US with frivolous suits; it's mostly hype, in part stirred up by deep pocket repeat defendants, often insurance companies.

Re:too far

[jez9999]

Isn't there? If not a problem on a large scale, there _certainly_ seems to be some frivoulous abuse of the US legal system by rich companies, suing (sueing?) people who don't have enough money to defend themselves in court. The defendants know that, even if they win the case, they'll lose lots of money, and so give in even if they could argue their case in defence!

Re:too far

[SRFeldman79]

A lot of the DMCA and the recent European laws are actually in response to an international treaty on copyright. I can try to find which treaty, etc, i just remember reading this is an intellectual property article I was reading on the DMCA (im writing an article on it).

Re:too far

[cpt kangarooski]

Well, at least with regards to copyright cases -- considering the topic of the thread here -- usually the big companies are going to win.

But as per the general issue, how would fees and costs as part of the award help? The case might still go the other way, in which case the defendants will surely be ruined having to pay for the big legal team of the other side, and since most people in court feel they will win (or wouldn't be there -- perhaps regardless of the advice of their more calculating lawyer) it's just going to be an excuse by both sides to rack up huge fees, hoping to stick it to the other side. In the worst cases, regardless of the winner, the lawyers won't get paid, and whatever you might think about them, they need to have a paying job too. And most lawyers don't get rich -- not even most plaintiff's attorneys in tort cases. It's like winning the lotto, or having your stock options shoot through the roof in terms of likelihood.

I don't see your proposal as a solution to there being too much litigation, and I'm not sure that it's bad that there is litigation to begin with. Nor do I see it curing abuses. In fact I think it'll tend to encourage them.

Re:too far

[jez9999]

I don't see your proposal as a solution to there being too much litigation

It's not a proposal, it's the current status of the English legal system, where LESS abuse happens than in America. Apparently I'm not the only one who likes the idea.

But as per the general issue, how would fees and costs as part of the award help?

Theoretically, in a good system (which I admit isn't really in place at the moment), the person with the *BEST CASE* wins (not the best lawyer). So, the loser deserves to lose. Paying the winner's legal fees would help to achieve this, because it wouldn't be a battle of who has the most money anymore; even the 'little guy' can hire an expensive lawyer if he knows he has a good case. With the current system, he can have a good case, WIN, and still lose bigtime, financially. How stupid is that?

And if lawyers don't get rich, why are they so f(&&)U*AUing expensive??

Re:too far

[Hognoxious]

China is realy great about freedom these days.

The freedom to choose whether to be crushed by a tank, beaten to death, shot, or to simply shut up and do as you're told.

Still, Asians and the like don't want democracy, at least that's what their leaders tell us^H^H them.

don't worry everyone

[toddhunter]

It's only laws being passed. Sure it might suck for a while, but ultimately we have the power to fight these laws no matter what they come up with.
It's like they say, never, ever, piss off your system admin

Re:don't worry everyone

[duffhuff]

It's like they say, never, ever, piss off your system admin

I don't know about that dude. It looks like the government is the one with root access, and they aren't afraid to kill -9 a few people to make a point.

Re:don't worry everyone

[toddhunter]

Fair point, although it's kill -1 in the Buddhist countries I suppose.
I see it as the problem with governments keeping up with technology. I mean you still hear them talking about Napster here in Australia. What would they do if/when another internet popped up that didn't need all the infrastructure that they use to control what is going on?
Make it illegal to possess or use I suppose, and thats when the real fun begins to start. It's just a matter of staying one move ahead.

The root cause ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget it's mostly because of the US (and US companies) pressuring Europe into their legislation.

Re:The root cause ?

[tsa]

That's not true, it's the spineless ignorant European politicians that don't stand up to these companies because they are afraid of the wrath of America. When will the EU learn that Europe is a huge continent with a very important market that could have a significant impact on world politics and economics if only they stopped arguing about petty little things and concentrate on important things for once?

Re:The root cause ?

[Troed]

What's the problem? We don't need to produce more children when there already are crowded areas on the Earth. Let them move and work here - that works out just as fine as we producing more children of our own.

Stop looking at individual countries - view the Earth as one big country if you like. That solves a lot of issues people seem to think exists.

Re:The root cause ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe is shrinking? I guess the news of seven new member states, making the EU the largest single trading zone both my population of GDP, didn't make it to FOX News.

The patriotism is cute and all, but get over it already. The US is destined to be third place, behind China and the EU. Now export some of that tobacco you got there, boy.

Re:The root cause ?

[Anonymous Coward]

>That's not true,

Sure it is, the Dictatorship that is America forces their will on all the countries. This week they blackmailed Belgium to change their laws. Disgusting.

Re:The root cause ?

[nutshell42]

Nope, it's European companies whining "*sniff*Want that too, *cry*moving to the US otherwise, *dissolving in tears* thousands of jobs lost.

The next day they have their legislation because noone seems to realize that the corporations would have at least as much to lose as the countries they'd leave

Re:The root cause ?

[tsa]

That is also a little bit more complicated. The Belgian law was not constructed very well. Anybody on earth could use this law to sue everybody else, giving ample room for misuse. But it's certainly a pity that the Belgian gouvernment withdrew it instead of changing it.

Re:The root cause ?

[panurge]

In the case of Germany, Italy and the UK, I imagine it's because so much investment is in the US. The European economy is weakened, perhaps fatally in the long term, by the long period in which so much investment went into US equities because Europe was perceived as stagnant and the US as the engine of growth. European stock markets seem largely to depend on US levels except that (in the case of the UK at least) when the Dow falls the UK markets fall more, when it rises they rise more slowly. This just reflects the financial realities. Europe will fall into line with US commercial law in the hope that this will protect some of its investments.

Although some right-wing republicans will doubtless welcome European dependence on the US economy, it isn't healthy. Having a world economy that depends on events in a single country with about 1/25 of the entire population is far from smart. Having laws written in an attempt to protect the interests of a small number of large corporations is trying to prevent change. The last non-US big highly centralised empire that tried to stop change was the Soviet Union. Remember? Just thirteen years ago?

Re:The root cause ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm really asking myself, why are US and EU constantly trying to strenghten their law control over their patents, technological solutions, trademarks and copyrights?

It seems they are afraid of Eastern countries which are at the moment pressing to catch up with the american and european economy. DMCA & stuff could be a good way to prevent them from being competition.

But I hope they'll be smart enough to accept such laws and declare a zone, free from american and european IT claims. Asia is a huge market, and they'd loose less from isolation and separation than western states.

Btw, if westerners decide to take a free approach, without tight restrictions, they'll probably loose this (economical) war, so it's the only way to go.
As well as robbing countries like Iraq.

Re:The root cause ?

[infolib]

It doesn't help that there's been very few people fighting this from the beginning. Check the EUCD status page. Of the groups listed there, most didn't exist five years ago. Now we are teaming up, making sure we won't be late next time. (The directive was passed spring 2001, no protests)

I believe these organizations are going to make a real difference in the coming years. If you live in Europe, contact the nearest, especially if you are eastern european (We need contacts in the soon-to-be-EU countries)

Re:The root cause ?

[Anonymous Coward]

EU the largest single trading zone both my population of GDP

Considering that both China and India have greater populations than the entire European continent, EU cannot be largest by population. You may say they're countries, not trading zones, but the fact is they have free internal trade and harmonised legislation.

Re:The root cause ?

[JimFromJersey]

Your population is in decline. Your social welfare system is going bankrupt. Your native born population and native culture is being replaced with North Africans and their culture. Soon your vaunted cathedrals, castles, and museums will be abandoned, your EU constitution replaced by Sharia Law. As Islam imposes its ignorance your best and brightest will flee. Its over, we helped save you from the Germans and held the Soviet bear at bay. In the end; however, your own worst enemy was yourselves. Pink Floyd said it best "did you trade ... cold comfort for change, did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a leading role in a cage". You got comfortable, you lost your hunger, you lost your edge. Don't get me wrong, I am not at all happy about this, but that does not change the fact that it is over. As far as China is concerned, people said the same thing about Japan and look what happened. Also, China will never be a World player like Russia, France, UK, US. Why? Because they do not have the kind of global amibition that some western countries have. Why? Because they still view themselves as the middle kingdom, between heaven and earth, with all else being barbarity. Also, China is destined to go the way of the Soviet Union. India will be the dominant asian power by 2010. Having just glanced back at your comment, the part about the news of EU expansion. That is your critical failure, you only look at yesterday and today. It is tomorrow that is important, that is where America lives, it lives in tomorrow. Americans are criticized for not knowing their own history, I would posit that Americans know the difference between knowing their history and being tied to it.

Re:The root cause ?

[sploxx]

Yes, and this it is probably wrong to listen to such arguments, because they want to sell it also to the *local* customers. Why should they therefore go out of europe?
There are many, many consumers in europe.

Re:The root cause ?

[delong]

You got the troll too eh? Doesn't matter that I posted links to articles that quote UN population studies. State the facts and you get the Troll. That's Slashdot for you.

Derek

Re:The root cause ?

[delong]

Thanks for using all your mod points on me before posting as AC. Or maybe the name just fits.

Guess you didn't read the articles I linked. It's easier to live in ignorance I suppose. UN population studies. Europe is set for the trash can, pup. Suck it up, maybe Europe will get over its racist xenophobia and let the brown people move into the EU zone in sufficient numbers to prop up your nanny state pensions.

In the meantime, the United States is slated for 500 million by 2050. That will be twice the population of Europe by then. Maybe you can get a job over here. You'll have to rub elbows with the brown folks though. Probably will have a Hispanic or black man as your boss, which I hope won't offend your European ubermensch cultural sensitivities TOO badly.

Derek

Re:The root cause ?

[Hognoxious]

When will the EU learn that Europe is a huge continent with a very important market that could have a significant impact on world politics and economics

When you can sail from Southampton to Sicily.

In a straight line.

Re:The root cause ?

[Hognoxious]

Ah, the 'universal competence' law. 'Competence', not a word you often associate with Belgium, at least without the prefix 'in'.

A stupid law, created as a political bribe to the Arabs (it's only used to target Americans and Sharon) and a financial one to the lawyers. It also conveniently allowed that communist cow Onkelinx and her ilk a fine opportunity for meaningless grandstanding.

alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[dermond]

... the only alternative is to vote communist here.. at least then we do not have to fear the extention of property rights (here intelectual property).. lg mond.

Re:alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[olethrosdc]

Copyright protection == state control == communism.

Don't you think they have copyrights in, say, Cuba?

Re:alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[dermond]

copyright in cuba
copyright protection = state protection of burgeois interest = capitalism.
protecting the right of people against capitalist interest = no copyright protection = communism.

Re:alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[olethrosdc]

I am sorry, but I fail to understand in what way copyright in Cuba differs from standard copyright law.

Re:alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you think they have copyrights in, say, Cuba?

Hahahaha, thats a fucking classic. I've seen a lot of ignorance concerning Communist and Socialist countries before, but thats a cracker! I bet you think they used to ate babies in East Germany, didn't you?

Re:alternative to light-red/green coalition...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just that, but they ate them alive...

Re:DMCA Sux

[Frymaster]

the dmca is just a thorn. if you wanna be concerned, take a looksee at the grandaddy of intellectual property agreements the world trade organization's trade-related intellectual property rights (trips) schedule.

read up on it. there will come a time when your petty national law will be overridden by the unelected, unaccountable wto... and then the dmca might look good.

Lack of coverage

[kramer2718]

One of the main reasons that the DMCA has caused so little controversy in mainstream American society (no, Slashdot is not mainstream) is that the conventional media has pretty much refused to cover it.

I'm just curious but have any Slashdot readers from Germany, Austria, Denmark, Greece, or Italy noticed any significant coverage in the media of these euro-DMCA laws? Also, what does the local reaction seem to be? Do most people know enough about the issues to care?

Re:Lack of coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

Italy isn't actually the most free country if it comes to news coverage. I think that the average Italian doesn't even know about the issue with Germany. Leaving them wondering why there are so little german tourists this year.

So, I'm pretty sure it isn't covered in Italy.

In Belgium I haven't heard of anything either. although blank cd prices went up a few months ago.

Re:Lack of coverage

[Troed]

Oh there is coverage (Sweden) .. it's along the lines of: "There will be a new law that will make it illegal to decrypt satellite/cable TV you're not subscribing to" and such examples. Joe Public just goes "uh hum .. yeah .. well .. I guess that's good .. I will still keep on doing it".

No one is bringing up the _bad_ examples of what this law can do to you. The law hasn't been enacted in Sweden yet, but when it is I'll probably have to stop helping out in hacking the Xbox in various ways myself.

One note though: Some techies seem to think the Swedish version of this law could be quite lenient .. it depends on if the courts read the exemptions as we do or not. I'm being negative about it, some are being positive.

Re:Lack of coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

aha. The fact that berlusconi owns nearly all the media doesn't mean people don't know what happens. The problem is that what has been said of german tourists is true but we really didn't need to tell that to the world.

Re:Lack of coverage

[olethrosdc]

I am not currently living in Greece, but none of my friends there seem to be aware that the law has passed. I think it has received no coverage whatsoever. I also think that, whatever coverage it does receive would be positive in the sense of 'finally the rights of artists are protected against evil pirates' positive.

Re:Lack of coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Denmark the coverage has also been quite poor outside technical circles. This has led to an over-implementation of the EU Copyright Directive.

I think the only way to push the message through to the general public is by focusing on what implications it will have for them. For example how the law can hamper the competition and thus create higher prices on software, car parts and so on.

Re:Lack of coverage

[Arioch of Chaos]

Actually there have been *some* voices raised against the proposed Swedish law in the press. But in general, they just reported that there would be a change in the law and they made lots of errors in that reporting because journalists cannot be bothered to actually read the laws they're writing about.

Re:Lack of coverage

[vrt3]

Nothing, or virtual nothing, in Belgian media. There is, BTW, very little information on EU-matters in general, even though quite a lot of legislation is passed on EU-level. It's a shame really.

There is, of course, coverage of the top conferences, especially if there are riots. And about the current quarrels between Italy and Germany. But almost nothing about real decisions or lawmaking.

Re:Lack of coverage

[a_n_d_e_r_s]

I am reading the proposal frm the swedish justice department right now - 600 pages whoooa - well I will weite an ansver since I represent 1 out of 104 officials reviewers of the law peoposal.

The review has to be in by middle of september wnd if it can't be stopped it will be law in Sweden at 1 of janurary 2004.

Re:Lack of coverage

[Troed]

Many thanks for that information. Where would you suggest I direct people wanting to know more?

I'm debating this in several public places as well as trying to pursuade politicians - your info could help out immensely.

Re:Lack of coverage

[huey83]

I have to admit that I am pretty overwhelmed by my ignorance of the euro-DMCA laws. I live in Germany and I have never read anything in the mainstream newspapers nor seen anything on tv. There are some places where the issue is discussed (heise.de) but as someone said earlier: that is not mainstream.

It's really weak to have laws passed by old fools (politicians) who don't really know what they're doing. No need to say that our last chancellor didn't know there was an internet. He was in charge until 1998. Bah.

Re:Lack of coverage

[huey83]

[irony]Yeah, right! And we Germans didn't like you anyway. So thanks for taking the blame on this issue.[/irony] (:

Re:Lack of coverage

[smg_mrBlonde]

There has been no coverage in the media at all, in Portugal, eavan thou we will be one of the "sheep" nations to aprove these laws, the only people concerned about this issue (as always) are the computer savy community.
And most p2p users just say they will change ISP, if any information about their personal traffic is divulged to anyone.

Re:Lack of coverage

[RickHunter]

the conventional media has pretty much refused to cover it.

Duh. The "conventional media" is 100% owned and operated by the same companies that are benefiting from this law. Do you REALLY think they're going to speak out against something that gives them all the powers of law enforcement with none of the restrictions?

Re:Lack of coverage

[Anonymous Coward]

There was some news coverage when a proposal was being considered in Finland. It was fairly typical for the mainstream news media - "a law is being considered that has implications blah blah...critics argue that it would cause problems with this and that" etc.

Of course the proposal didn't pass.

Re:Lack of coverage

[faaaz]

I would be glad helping out sending letters to politicians or informing peers. A page with well-articulated arguments against this law would help me in my letter-writing.

I have thoughts scribbled in text-files, but they need more substance.

Re:Lack of coverage

[infolib]

This is not true. In Denmark, the national broadcasting corp (dr.dk) was lobbying against the "anti-circumvention" provisions. They recently had to go to court to secure the right to use harddrives as intermediate storage for the songs they play. Obviously, they don't think it's cool that technical copy restrictions suddenly have legal authority.

Re:Lack of coverage

[a_n_d_e_r_s]

Here is a Wiki about it (in swedish).
Wiki

Other good swedish sites who may or may not bring it up is

EF Sverige Swedish EFF - where we had some discussion about the new law in our internal email lists.

Gnuheter news like Slashdot but in swedish.

Re:Lack of coverage

[C32]

Here in Denmark the coverage has been close to non-existant.
Everything I know about this euro-dmca and it's american counterpart is from reading slashdot and other tech publications on the internet..
Newspapers gloss over the subject in a half-column article somewhere on page 16 :)
Even worse, i'm the only person I know who actually knows that this law exists!
Even geek friends of mine who work as sysadmins and programmers didn't know anything about it until I told them myself. (as for non-technical people I could just as well be speaking swahili, zero comprehension..)

Re:Lack of coverage

[cunta_cinte]

You do not support US regime ?

And why would you ?
It is not your regime is it ?

Re:Lack of coverage

[stephanruby]

What!? Media companies don't tell us about stupid media protection laws. I wonder why they would do such a thing.

Fortunately, Jesus is a myth.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank fucking God this whole religion thing is a sham.

Does not matter

[00_NOP]

In the end it doesn't matter whether this or that member state of the EU adopts the law. Three years after the directive is adopted it is justiciable in the European Court of Justice and states which haven't implemented it in domestic law can be taken to court and their domestic courts have to follow the precedent set by the ECJ.

Re:Does not matter

[Arker]

In the end it doesn't matter whether this or that member state of the EU adopts the law. Three years after the directive is adopted it is justiciable in the European Court of Justice and states which haven't implemented it in domestic law can be taken to court and their domestic courts have to follow the precedent set by the ECJ.

How can this be claimed to be consistent with the ideal of 'democracy' that the eurocrats are always blathering about? An unelected group of beaureacrats draft a 'directive' which the elected representatives of, for instance, Finland reject - and then it's enforced on the Finnish people anyway, against their wishes?

Re:Does not matter

[jkrise]

Three years after the directive is adopted it is justiciable in the European Court of Justice and states which haven't implemented it in domestic law can be taken to court

By the same token, why can't England be forced to adopt the Euro? Looks like such restrictions are only for convenience.

Re:Does not matter

[pork_spies]

Well, there are issues about how this directive could be translated into domestic law - it could be in a hard hitting way or it could be in a softer way.

One the democracy point the issue is this: this matter should have been tackled when the question of principle came up in 2001, not now.

Re:Does not matter

[Arker]

Better late than never.

Re:Does not matter

[Wastl]

An unelected group of beaureacrats draft a 'directive' which the elected representatives of, for instance, Finland reject - and then it's enforced on the Finnish people anyway, against their wishes?

The other elected representatives apparently accepted it, or otherwise it wouldn't have passed. That's probably called majority vote, isn't it?

The major issue is IMHO that the people are not properly informed about the consequences of this law. I'd suspect that, given a large enough number of voters that publicly state that they are against that law, the representatives would have voted against it.

Sebastian

Re:Does not matter

[spyfrog]

This is why it is better to be against the whole EU idea. The truth is that one simple directive (which DOESN'T need to be handled throught anything BUT the Eu commission) is more worth than your countrys constitution.

So when a country join EU they basicly throws democraty out. In my opinion so is it devasting to join a union where a directive from a non-elected commision has more value than the constitution of your country.

Re:Does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we negotiated a clause which said "you are forced to sign up to everything except the Euro and the Social Chapter" in the Maastricht treaty. (Then 5 years later one of the first things Blair did was sign up to the social chapter anyway).

Re:Does not matter

[jez9999]

Um, the problem is that it's representatives voting on the law, and not the people. Democracy by representation is always imperfect, as your 'representative' can never truly represent your views, but on a small scale it can work OK. There does come a point, however, where it becomes utterly useless, and I think that a handful of people claiming to represent the views of *ALL CITIZENS IN EUROPE* is way beyond that point. Perhaps a mayor of a town is a reasonable limit on how far elected representatives should go.

Re:Does not matter

[Snaller]

So it's a good thing the union will break up in 2013...

Re:Does not matter

[pork_spies]

Total garbage. If a law has been passed through the EU that you don't like, it is almost certainly becuase your government and your MEPs voted for it - that's how it works. The bureaucrats (aka Civil Service/Commission) draw up the proposals, but the people who decide whether it becomes law or not are the government ministers and the MEPs. If you only woke up to the fact that it was a bad law today then that is your fault.

Re:Does not matter

[Eric Ass Raymond]

The bureaucrats (aka Civil Service/Commission) draw up the proposals, but the people who decide whether it becomes law or not are the government ministers and the MEPs.

Haha! Ever seen brilliant comedy shows called "Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister?"

Re:Does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

why can't England be forced to adopt the Euro

Perhaps because England is not, has never been nor ever will be a member of the European Union.

PS. If you need it spelled out, try asking some people in the "English" cities of Glasgow, Belfast and Cardiff to explain it to you.

Re:Does not matter

[Arandir]

Because Finland under the EU is not a sovereign nation. If the two senators from Wyoming (for example) don't vote for a law, but all the other US states do, Wyoming doesn't get to opt out.

Re:Does not matter

[Arker]

Because Finland under the EU is not a sovereign nation.

But that's not how it's been sold here, and that's not what the people of Finland agreed to.

If the two senators from Wyoming (for example) don't vote for a law, but all the other US states do, Wyoming doesn't get to opt out.

The idea with the Constitution and Federalism was that Congress would have very limited competency and no authority to intervene except in a few defined areas. Of course we know that federalism was murdered in the US along the way. But when they sold this whole EU idea over here, and to this day, they proclaim loudly that it is not to be a 'United States of Europe' - that the states involved do maintain sovereignty, they just cooperate more. This is the main reason, I suppose, that they've gotten away with setting up such an un-democratic power structure, Brussels isn't supposed to be setting policies for the most part, rather simply establishing frameworks for cooperation and co-development between EU countries.

The farcical level is really sickening sometimes, like when the EU directorates 'recommend' policies like this, the democratic representatives in constituent states sometimes agree and sometimes refuse, but then the refusers are told it doesn't matter they have to follow anyway. It's a scam, and I'm hoping we wake up over here before it's too late.

There are a lot of good aspects to the EU, but the threat of it all going sour looks very real from here.

Is anyone surprised?

[OzPhIsH]

Does this really surprise anyone? Most people don't care about the issues in general, much less this one. Those who do care, and try to be vocal about it are simply paid no attention to by our governments, no matter what the nationality. We're slowly losing the ability to control what we do with our technology, our knowledge, and our lives. I keep waiting for something to give, for that final straw where more than just a few of us stand up and say 'No More!' but it hasn't happened. I fear it won't happen in my life time.

Re:Is anyone surprised?

[jkrise]

I keep waiting for something to give, for that final straw where more than just a few of us stand up and say 'No More!' but it hasn't happened.

If you have seen the light, it's enough for your lifetime. Read Alan Cox's answer to the last question in the referenced article. There's many things you could interest yourself in - don't worry over things you don't control.

Re:Attention

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at least we don't have any concentration camps (yet).

no more MP3 players

[MoFoYa]

[article]"6.1 Makes it illegal to circumvent a protection measure. Note that there is no requirement to show that the person who does the circumvention did it in order to infringe copyright law. Circumventing for the sake of making a copy of a music file you have bought in order to listen to it on your portable MP3 player is just as illegal as circumventing in order to put the music on Napster."

whats the point of creating technology that plays compressed music files to enable us to carry around loads of our (paid for) music in a small package if they make it illegal. the whole idea was to make it easy to listen to all of my CD's anywhere without a huge CD wallet bulging at the seams. the napster phenomenon was a different issue totaly, but now it's twisting MP3's from the beautiful thing they were, to a taboo that can land you in jail.

it's not the technology's fault, it's the users fault. guns don't kill people, people kill people - right? well, MP3 players don't steal MP3's. if i can no longer rip MY CD's and upload them to MY player without pissing off some litigator somewhere, then -- F*#% the bozos.

Re:no more MP3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, I see what they're doing now...

1: People buy LP's
2: People buy the same music on MC to have it in their car
3: People buy the same music on CD to have it in their car
4: People start to carry music with them on mp3 players
5: RIAA makes it illegal to make mp3's from CD's
6: People buy the same music AGAIN on LP's, in order to make legal mp3's
5: PROFIT!!!

The question is, when we all have bought all the LP's, how will they make us buy the MC's again?

Re:no more MP3 players

[olman]

It makes it illegal to circumvent an effective protection measure. I don't think cd-like products qualify.

Re:no more MP3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

"It makes it illegal to circumvent an effective protection measure"

If you can circumvent a protection, haven't you also proved the protection measure to be of no effect?
A locked door which can easily be opened shouldn't be considered a locked door. At least that's what the insurance companies think.
With these laws it's not up to me or you to decide what's effective. Some company can just use a simple shift a -> b encryption and then sue everyone who 'breaks it'. The 'effectiveness' of any protection measure will be your ability to sue and 'imprison' anyone and everyone who questions your 'effective measures'.

Re:no more MP3 players

[lionelhutz_esq]

Art 6(2) EUCD

"Technological measures shall be deemed "effective" where the use of a protected work or other subject-matter is controlled by the rightholders through application of an access control or protection process , such as encryption, scrambling or other transformation of the work or other subject-matter or a copy control mechanism, which achieves the protection objective. "

i read this "effectiveness" not as "effective" in a technical sense, but in a legal one; indeed very effective legal protection for the content holders since they can determine what you can do with your purchase simply by adding ANY protection mechanism.

Re:no more MP3 players

[jez9999]

whats the point of creating technology that plays compressed music files to enable us to carry around loads of our (paid for) music in a small package if they make it illegal.

Actually, that's probably the last thing they'd do. If they made MP3 players illegal, it'd get them a lot of bad press, such is the popularity now of MP3 players. They install them in new cars, for God's sake! MP3 players will probably be one of those things that's technically illegal, but they 'let it happen' anyway.

Re:no more MP3 players

[olman]

Still not convinced corrupting the audio stream in a CD qualifies. Seeing how it plays in regular CD player. In any case, it's up to the member states to actually pass laws to implement the directive. Finnish parliament took a time out since the directive is controversial (oh really?) wrt consumer rights. So the national laws are more or less reasonable than the directive text depending on the bone layer thickness quotient.

Re:no more MP3 players

[lionelhutz_esq]

as for "effectiveness" and member states implementations: for instance, 95a(2)UrhG german is basically a literal translation of 6.2 eucd which itself is quite detailed. i would think that quite a few member states would stick to its wording. in any case, css is certainly protected by the law (but not by technology). in other words, by using css end users have the right to pay and the obligation to adhere to the rules prescribed by the content holder.

Re:no more MP3 players

[PhilHibbs]

If you can circumvent a protection, haven't you also proved the protection measure to be of no effect?

Many have said this, and all would be laughed out of court when trying to pull a technicality like this. I refute it this: by having to create a specific device to circumvent it, you have demonstrated that it is effective. Locks are effective because you have to get a set of lockpicks to bypass them. The only difference is that lockpicks aren't illegal, but circumvention devices are.

Re:DMCA Sux

[I don't want to spen]

By "... it should burn. Along with any Bill ... to do ... with technology" , am I right in assuming you include Mr. Gates?

Re:I AM TAKING OVER #GNAA

[Anonymous Coward]

are you sure? how would the EFNet admins feel about your abuse of their network?

we have setup countermeasures and according to our tests, are oblivious to any lame bot attacks.

go fist yourself

MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Very concise and non-arguable.

Re:DMCA Sux

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates? technology? Nah. The only place where you can see "technology" in a Microsoft product is when the word is used somewhere for marketing reasons.

Re:Attention

[RedCard]

This is a wake up call all you Europe fan-boys who piss and moan about the United States:
There's no safe-haven in the world from this type of B.S., face it. America ain't so bad.

You've got that backwards. This is fodder for people who piss and moan about the united states. These type of laws were pioneered in the US, and it is (to a large degree) US interests that have helped to push these laws overseas.

The US has, in the past, threatened to walk out of international talks because other participants refused to consider the implementation of DMCA-esque laws.

Because the US says so....

[kaltkalt]

We (the USA) produce most of the world's copyrighted material, and we give out billions of dollars each year to other countries for free. If we want them to pass a law that favors us, they will all do it. They have little choice. If we decide applejuice needs to be outlawed, we'll get (via bribes and threats) every country in the world to outlaw it. What the US wants, it gets. As an American, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Were we wanting rational things, I suppose I'd be somewhat happy and maybe even a bit proud (in an egocentric sorta way).

Anyway, that's all this is. Sorta like drug laws. We want it to be illegal, so we'll pay for everyone else to make it illegal. End of story.

Re:Because the US says so....

[Troed]

and we give out billions of dollars each year to other countries for free.

Say what? Of all the developed countries you give out the _least_ amount of money compared to the BNP ..

Re:Because the US says so....

[Anonymous Coward]

& when they do give it to them, they extract it out of them again with tarrifs and large protected markets for US companies. See: Africa, South America, Asia.

Re:Because the US says so....

[Cardinal Biggles]

We (the USA) produce most of the world's copyrighted material, and we give out billions of dollars each year to other countries for free.

I wonder why even intelligent Americans always seem to be convinced their country is the biggest single source of aid to poor countries. It's clear that this isn't true (Europe spends many, many times more on foreign aid than the US, as does Japan), yet Americans all think they're the great benefactors of the world...

The key to the USA's global dominance is that they don't give away billions like Europe does, but spend trillions on the military instead.

And, of course, their "divide and conquer" tactic against the EU has been working extremely well for many years now.

Re:Because the US says so....

[fleafan]

Uhm...no matter what the percentage is, it still amounts to billions of dollars. You seem to want to turn this discussion into an anti-american debate not even understanding that the parent poster actually was critisizing the USA. Who modded his as interesting?

Re:Because the US says so....

[Scrameustache]

We (the USA) produce most of the world's copyrighted material, and we give out billions of dollars each year to other countries for free.

Er, no, and no.

You produce most of the world's internationaly distributed copyright material (wich is a minority of the total of copyrighted material).

And you loan billions of dollars, with a lot of strings attached.

Re:Because the US says so....

[kaltkalt]

The loans are illusory, as the "strings" are instantly snapped as soon as the receivee country gets the money. It's understood that they don't have to pay us back. We'll let it slide if they don't argue with us and enforce our laws on their people.

Re:Because the US says so....

[Anonymous Coward]

How much did you give to the EU states, again?

Why the waste of bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at the comments that have been posted so far, most appear to be around the "America vs Europe" contest that is ongoing on Slashdot, or "Who do we blame for this?" along with the usually lame trolls.

How about instead, people put some thought into the possibilities of beating some sort of system and what the actual outcome of such regulation would be? There are a lot of clever people in this community and occasionally it's nice to hear what one of them has to say.

1. Will it just be the large coporates who put out DRM protecred media meaing that people who do not get the share of the consumers wallet.

2. Is this going to be like prohibition in the '20s where speakeasy joints for music trading spring up around the world.

3. How practical is it to build an encrypted freenet or something entirely separate from the regular 'Internet' which would allow a sort haven from this type of legislation?

4. Will we just end up as a fractional online society where certain geographical areas of the world (Far East, emerging African states) continue to pump out copies by the ton?

Anyone care to put in a serious comment?

Nah! This is /. after all...

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[Troed]

You're seing a lot of "America vs Europe" because the US recently pissed the whole world off.

Europeans seem to think democracy consists of something else besides bombing the crap out of everyone you don't like.

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it is Anti-Americanism. So now you have a label for it. So what? Doesn't change the fact that the U.S are assholes both with regards to their Foreign Policy and their internal afairs.

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Will it just be the large coporates who put out DRM protecred media meaing that people who do not get the share of the consumers wallet."

My current tack with people I talk to about this is to point out that using a DRM-based system requires a trust framework and slamming together a couple of hot issues means I can use the inability of governments to tackle spam as a method of pointing out flaws in any system that requires trust in a corporation. I occasionally throw in a comment about Enron, too, just for laughs.

"Is this going to be like prohibition in the '20s where speakeasy joints for music trading spring up around the world."

One of the funnier aspects of P2P is that I view it as the inevitable answer to years of artificial price-fixing and marginal deceptive practices on the part of the content providers themselves, and that any industry not agile enough to weather a killer application or learn to embrace and extend should be killed off. This is, after all, the basis behind a free market economy...consumers shouldn't be blamed when niche markets disappear.

"How practical is it to build an encrypted freenet or something entirely separate from the regular 'Internet' which would allow a sort haven from this type of legislation?"

Something I _love_ the idea of would be a country that could completely opt out of any national rules of data retention and transfer. Any country that could float a business model based on data that could be kept out of the reachy of the shadowy world of intelligence gathering could find itself in the same position as Switzerland with regard to banking, and might even manage to play off the other countries against each other. However, the big problem is the conditional entry into the WTO, requests from the IMF, etc...

Yes, this would in essence become an 'outlaw' state, but then anything that doesn't fall into the desired model of the G8 nations will eventually become 'outlawed'.

"Will we just end up as a fractional online society where certain geographical areas of the world (Far East, emerging African states) continue to pump out copies by the ton?"

Nicely spotted. One thing that amused me about the nature of warfare in this bit of the century is the ridiculous emphasis on technology; for those that follow this kind of thing, the non-lethal weaponry 'field tested' in Mogadishu failed miserably because they underestimated the ferocity and ingenuity of a motivated people working with whatever they had to hand.

Personally I'm geared up for making analogue copies of CDs when DRM comes along simply because the technology _needs_ to be stopped. This will be an untolerable level of social control practiced by corporations and sanctioned by government. Name one other area where this has been a successful relationship.

OD (In disguise)

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[KjetilK]

How about instead, people put some thought into the possibilities of beating some sort of system and what the actual outcome of such regulation would be?

I think we need to hack up some way to keep a cashflow going from end-user to creators, be it music, film, software or underlying technological infrastructure.

I think it is counterproductive to insist on control of copies, or private monopolies, enforced with copyrights or patents. However, those who do the job need to eat, and it is also counterproductive to force them to sell auxillary products (e.g. sell a t-shirt to fund writing music), or make money through advertising (I'd like to see the death of todays advertising business).

It is therefore we must focus on getting the money from the end user to the creator with the least possible resistance.

We could draw up a standard where payment information could be included as metadata in web pages, Ogg files or software. The applications that is used to view or play keep track of what you're viewing, and every week or month, it presents you with a list of what you've done in the past week or month, and what payment is requested by the author or artist. Most likely, the payment is passed as a voluntary (anonymous) micropayment.

If we can get this working, and hackers and independent artists start making a living from it, we'll see some opposition, but I think that we would be in a much better position to argue that *AA is just protecting old style business models, worth no protection.

But I think it is the only way we can do it: Provide a new business model, that can be seen to be sustainable.

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[jafac]

Let's remember that the DMCA arose from the effort to harmonize Copyright Law throughout all the industrialized nations, in the whole Globalization effort of the 1990's. This was decided in the UN first, supported by the Content Gentry, and pushed through in Congress to comply with what the Globalization community wanted.

The reason why DMCA smells so bad is because it was concieved for the purpose of abdicating US sovreignity to the "global" entity. It wasn't designed to be compliant to our Consitution, or our values. Because Globalization itself, is all about eliminating Nations, and joining them all together, which, on it's surface sounds nice, unless we all end up joined together in a fascist dictatorship run by corporations.

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

"bombing the crap out of everyone you don't like."

So where do you live again? Also, I could be confused because I'm an American but weren't there few European countries in the Coalition?

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only European countries that contributed anything more than words to the "coallition" were the UK and Poland, and Poland is not in the EU (yet).

Poland have admitted doing it for the oil, and as for the UK, well I'm not sure exactly what Blair was thinking. The lack of weapons finds has seriously undermined his credibility and trust with the British electorate.

Re:Why the waste of bandwidth?

[cunta_cinte]

"Europeans seem to think democracy consists of something else besides bombing the crap out of everyone you don't like."

Don't like ?
It is a bit more than that - we don't like you and when was the last time you were bombed by US ?

In any case, who gives a fuck what Europeans think.
Given their track record from the last 100 years, I am glad we are not liked there...
We must be doing something right.

I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[aepervius]

This is more or less a flamebait of the most transparent form. Mode me troll if you wish, but moderator, most of the time on slashdot I see post on how EU has less liberty than US because of free pseech law. And now that ? Get real. This isn't funny at ALL. Even with a bad humor you should not find this flame bait funny.

Very simple solution to all of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop buying music. Stop buying movies. Buy books. Or learn to meditate. Or go to a walk.

That's the way to fight this thing. Don't buy anything. Until they make it mandatory to buy music, because "THE ARTIST MUST GET PAID" (nevermind the benevolent record company).

Re:Very simple solution to all of this

[Anonymous Coward]

You say, "Buy Books." Do you think book publishers didn't have anything to do with copyright extentions and extreme IP law? Because they publish books they are all lovey-dovey?

Re:Very simple solution to all of this

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy secondhand books for quite cheap.

This law is mostly aimed at digital world, because the traditional methods of business don't seem to work here due to the great freedom, so the solution is to remove the freedom to make it like meatspace.

Re:So, tell me

[Anonymous Coward]

Good question. Lets ask the poster of cid #6432438

What an amazing mess.

[headbulb]

I found the magic pot-o-gold, and the lepercons don't want me to tell you about. So what they are going to do is sue me and then the press will have a hay-day. Then everyone will know there's a pot-o-gold and go after it. I must say this napster(the beginning and being continued with p2p) thing looks alot like that. Instead of inticing us with things such as, lower price's, offering extras (for example a free watch with a album named time) not using the money given to them to alienate their customers. But instead they choose to be gready... now look at the mess they are in.

It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[kaip]

The EU Copyright Directive is not the only worry. EU is also considering IPR Enforcement Directive which would add even more DMCA-like protections to technical measures. IPR Enforcement Directive would also introduce a "conviction of shame": if you are found guilty of rights infringment you must publish the judgement in a publication chosen by the rights owner at your own cost. See a statement by Electronic Frontier Finland on the proposed directive.

(For what it is worth, the Finnish parliament did not pass the national implementation of the EU Copyright Directive.)

Re:It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[Rogerborg]

I remember hearing a BBC article on the difference betwee the Finnish and British governments. You (yes, you, Joe Public, even Joe Foreigner) can just walk in off the street to the residence of the Finnish Prime Minister, and ask to see any government related document. And they don't peer at you in a suspicious manner and tell you they'll get back to you in two years after checking your security clearance, they smile and fetch it straight away, and get you coffee while you're waiting. For example, they fetched some of the personal correspondance between Tony Blair and the Finnish Prime Minister, the actual original letters, and just handed them over, no questions, no bullshit.

Contrast with asking for copies of the same correspondance in the UK. The UK Freedom of Information act gives you every right to see them, but when the BBC asked for them, they were given the run around, passed from department to department in Whitehall, each one of which expressed amazement that anyone would ask for this. They were eventually fobbed off by being told that such correspondance was classified, too secret to be seen. They said that they'd already seen it, and that it talked mostly about football. This produced outright disbelief, and vague threats about carrying out "further investigation" on the reporter.

I think that sums up the spectrum in Europe. In some places, there is a genuine openness and willingness to trust Joe Public. In others, the citizen is treated with suspicion and disdain.

My hope is that we move towards the Finnish position. My fear is that we'll all end up more like Britain.

Re:It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sheesh, the German Basic Law, and the Napoleanic codes chucked into the bin?by illiterate legislation tickers. Sad really.

Re:It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[LeftOfCentre]

You can read more about this principle, which is actually part of the constitution since hundreds of years ago in both Sweden and Finland, here.

Re:It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[infolib]

would add even more DMCA-like protections to technical measures.

That's unfortunately a blunder in the EFF statement. Read the directive yourself. The article in question is article 21:

"technical device" means any technology, [...] designed for the manufacture of authentic goods and the incorporation therein of elements which are manifestly identifiable by customers and consumers and which make it easier to recognise the goods as being authentic.

So, for instance, unless, say, CSS is "manifestly identifiable by customers" "to recognise the goods as being authentic" deCSS doesn't fall under this provision.

Re:It is not only the EuroDMCA...

[Rogerborg]

Er, thinking about it, the BBC article was probably actually about Sweden, as I believe the letters mentioned Sven Goran Ericsson. They probably talked about Finland having the same principle in law, which is where I made the association here.

Many thanks!

Re:Oh well

[kauttapiste]

Where's your vaunted freedom now, mmm?

Hahaha, we have freedom still in 66.7% of EU!! How's that for freedom!

Amerika and 33.3% of EU suxx!

:-)

Didn't learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say they learned all too well from our experience with the DMCA. Our opinion of the DMCA means nothing to those in power, nor to those pushing for DMCA-like laws. I know it will come as a big surprise, but none of the copyright holders nor politicians have been intimidated by a bunch of whiners on /.

This is exactly what the copyright holders want, and is exactly what the copyright holders' donations bought them.

When I read and discuss this here, I'm unable to imagine how the DMCA and its ilk continue getting support. But then I leave my house and talk to ordinary people, and they have no idea what the DMCA is nor how it impacts them. And, amazingly, if they do know they usually parrot some of the "pirating is bad" BS they hear in the press.

You'll be surprised, but millions will probably actually be intimidated by the upcoming prosecutions by the RIAA of individuals downloading music, and they will stop. Remember, these are the same Average Joes that believe Microsoft can track their email and Bill Gates will send them thousands of dollars for forwarding chain letters.

Re:Didn't learn?

[infolib]

none of the copyright holders nor politicians have been intimidated by a bunch of whiners on/.

So are you going to join one of the organisations fighting this?

Re:Didn't learn?

[Drakker]

Actualy, Microsoft do track their email, cuz Average Joe uses hotmail, its the only true _free_ email right? ;)

Re:Didn't learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

I already gave more than $500 this year and the same last year to the EFF, for a variety of causes.

From the directive

[Anonymous Coward]

In cases where rightholders have already received payment in some other form, for instance as part of a licence fee, no specific or separate payment may be due.

Doesn't this mean that you can make mp3s of all the CDs you own? The rightholders have already received payment in some form.

Re:Oh well

[Troed]

Oh even with the EUCD in place we have a lot more freedom (and better democrazy) in most of Europe than in the states. It's amazing how many americans don't realise that just because _you_ have a constitution and a bill of rights doesn't mean that no one else has equivalents - or that they might be implemented better for the citizens ..

(I mean, most of what you have is based on what France had/has .. )

Re:How to avoid imprisonment.

[MunchMunch]

Boy, if this wasn't flamebait, I don't know what is. But since I've got an itchy trigger finger tonight--

Step One: Read the post for mention of illegally downloading MP3s.

Unless the post contains a message advocating the illegal download of MP3s, JUST SAY NO.

Step Two: Repeat step one.

If you just can't reply to the content of the post, don't vector into unpopular or notorious self-serving viewpoints to merely provoke a reaction. If you refrain, you will be a fully functioning member of intellectual society, and the author's post will be better for it too. You expect attention for writing your viewpoints? Well, so does the author.

But hey--The best way to teach is through example: Most people would agree with you, Mr. Coward, that some economic system should be in place to compensate artists for their work. Kindly explain how potential jailtime and bankruptcy for a single illegal download accomplishes this.

I don't know what each of the EU member contries have for their own 'constitution,' but I think we all share the concept of fair punishment for legal infractions. By degree, this seems a lot more like Hammurabi's code than any civil and enlightened legislation.

Countries became prosperous...

[Anonymous Coward]

... based on systematic intellectual property violations, reverse engineering and circumvention, take your peak, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, you name it. I guess they will put themselves behind those laws and continue to surf the wave. It's not the developed countries I am so concerned about, it is the enormous technology gap that will continue to grow between those countries and the less fortunate ones.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[The Bungi]

You may not like it, but it's true. Continue whining about it, but it's true. It may get modded down, but it's true. And your spelling suxx. You must be European.

Re:Oh well

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, actually, it is funny. At the very least, it's "irony", which to most is viewed as a form of (often wry) humor. So, yes, it IS funny... just because you don't "get it" doesn't make it otherwise.

A brilliant idea

[SubliminalLove]

I just had the greatest idea. The law states that you get up to nine months in prison for violation, right?

Okay, everyone in Germany needs to turn themselves in for... oh, say, copying a CD that had some sort of protection on it. I can't wait to see the innovations they come up with for storing five million new pale and obese felons.

Before someone else says it

[SubliminalLove]

Hey moron, if you'd RTFA you'd know that the prison sentence isn't mandatory. They'll just charge everyone ten grand and walk with millions. Jeeze, don't you even think before you post this garbage? :)

Australia has one too...

[chriskenrick]

Even tech literate Aussies don't seem to know this, but we already adopted our own DMCA-alike.

See here for details.

Re:Australia has one too...

[Anonymous Coward]

So is there any reasonable country left where I could move once the rest of Europe has implemented the EUCD as well?

What's the status of Canada and New Zealand?

Re: Why pay?

[on]

...and they'll do what when everyone refuse to pay?

Re: loophole

[on]

In other words: If it's easy to circumvent the protection measure, it's legal?

When was circumventing copy protected material a problem? :-)

Please, grow up

[WIAKywbfatw]

Yeah, criticise aepervius's poor spelling. Let him know how badly it "suxx".

Apart from the US spelling of "humor" the only mispelt word in his entire post is the typo of "speech". Granted, his grammar might not be perfect but, as English most probably isn't his first language, that's excusable.

I'd like to see your French, German or Spanish grammar stand up to a rigorous inspection but I doubt that you're able to speak any foreign languages at all.

Stop being a petty little man and grow up.

Re:Please, grow up

[The Bungi]

Stop being a petty little man and grow up

I'll do that as soon as I stop seeing "I don't like what this guy is saying, so please mod him down" replies. It doesn't get any more petty and childish than that. Aside from the whining your friend aspervius (whatever) didn't provide a single valid point as to why my post was "flamebait". It just was, apparently.

And do me a favor and stop playing Super Dork - Defender Of The Lame Post. Thanks.

Re:Please, grow up

[WIAKywbfatw]

"Petty and childish"? You're original post was just a "suxx to be European" rant and you have the gall to call someone else petty and childish?

Wonder why that post was modded down as both a troll and flamebait. Because it was a troll and flamebait. That somebody pointed it out and that others moderated it as such isn't surprising and it certainly isn't anything new - the same thing happens to a couple of posts on almost every story.

Do you really think that your post wouldn't have been moderated down if aspervius hadn't written anything? Do you not think that any of the people who modded it down have brains of their own and were able to come to their own conclusions as to how (if at all) it should be moderated? Do you really not understand why it is a troll or why it is flamebait? Do you not understand what those words mean?

The very fact that pointing out the obvious reduces you to the level of personal attacks indicates how mature you are. "Super Dork - Defender Of The Lame Post"? Wow. I am so hurt. How will I ever recover from your vicious barb?

Don't want to be moderated down? Well, post more sensible comments then. Better still, if this is as intelligent and as coherent as your posts get then stop posting altogether.

Re:Please, grow up

[lee7guy]

flamebait (http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/gDefiniti on/0,294236,sid26_gci212128,00.html)

On the Internet, flamebait is a "posting" or note on a Web site discussion forum, an online bulletin board, a Usenet newsgroup, or other public forum that is intended to elicit the extremely strong responses characteristic of flaming and active public discussions. To be effective, flamebait should be a bit subtle (but not too subtle) so that potential flamers will "take the bait." This term is similar to troll, which is an effort to get a reaction from readers but not necessarily for the purpose of eliciting flames.

Sometimes flamebait is used just to get a discussion started.

troll (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_g ci213222,0.html)

As used on the Internet:

1) As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar "bait." In a real example, a Usenet newsgroup contributor mentioned the discovery of an ancient African carving containing a list of prime numbers. The contributor further listed some of the prime numbers found and included some numbers that, in fact, are not prime numbers. Other contributors then sent serious replies, correcting the list of prime numbers cited.

Take your pick.

Re:Please, grow up

[The Bungi]

have brains of their own

You must be new here.

reduces you to the level of personal attacks

I guess "petty little man" doesn't count.

Don't want to be moderated down?

You misunderstand me. I don't care one flying fuck about moderation. What I do find extremely annoying is people whose replies consist entirely of "I don't like what he's saying, plz mod him down, k? thx". If you're going to respond and flame or praise me in broken English (or Esperanto for all I care), great. Let's get it on. If all you can do is ask for divine intervention in broken English then we have a problem. Either vote with your flame and tell me that I suck, or get some moderator points and play god. Anything else is just a waste of pixels, bandwidth and keyboard lubricant.

Well, post more sensible comments then

Really. "Sensible"? As in "agreeable"? Well, of course. But then I wouldn't have to "worry" about moderation, now would I?

MP3s are a German invention too

[hughk]

This is particularly a shame because the inventor of the MP3 was the Fraunhofer Institute in Germany, a publicly funded research institute.

MP3 players are popular in Germany, particularly now for cars (MP3/CD) where the compression means you don't need large and inconvenient changers.

Bertelsmann are big though and control distribution rights for both souznd and video products in Germany. They have been lobbying for the implementation of this rule.

However, the real problem is that it is an EU directive. Unless countries can prove a get out under subsidiarity, they must implement the directives or risk a large fine.

The other problem is the multi-region DVD players on sale. This will certainly stop under this technical measures clause. Shame for all those people who want to look at non-region 2 DVDs, for example that large immigrant population from the former Soviet Union.

America and Europe .. two sides of the same pond?

[jkrise]

At the risk of being modded Flamebait... it does appear that both continents are inevitably compelled to act similarly. Instances - Iraq, NATO, DMCA, MS anti-trust case etc.. Presently the US seems to have the upper hand, in that it can act more independently, and care less about repercussions from pissing off own citizens...

OTOH, Europe adopting this attitude (London traffic monitoring, inaction against Corporations, resistance to Euro, etc..) is sickening, given it's history and respect to tradition. LinuxTAGs moves against SCO is the only bright spot so far.

The court of the Sun King is now in Brussels....

[hughk]

Sorry, the EU now ruled from Brussels/Strasburg. The commission and the parliamentarians are now surrounded by corporate lobbying groups - much like the nobles in the royal courts of old.

The one thing about the Berlesconi incident (another publisher with alleged crooked links) is that it did prove that there is some life in the Parliament.

Re:Oh well

[delong]

Hahaha, we have freedom still in 66.7% of EU!! How's that for freedom!

And how do you know you still have freedom in 66.7% of the EU? The little man behind the camera on the streetcorner told you so? Or the unelected Eurocrat in Brussels? :P~~~~~~~

Derek

Do you really think...

[SlashChick]

Do you really think that you could even get 5 people, let alone 5 million people, to turn themselves in?

If you have a felony on your record, you'll find it very hard to get a job, get credit for a mortgage or car loan, or anything else. That risk alone (and the risk of going to jail) will scare many people away from even thinking about turning themselves in, even if they have done something against the law.

On the other hand, if you can prove via statistics that 90% of the population has copied at least one CD or downloaded an illegal MP3, you might have a great case on your hands... without the risk of so many people being carted off to jail.

Re:Do you really think...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in the EU. You only have to declare certain crimes if you're applying to work in certain positions. E.g. a sex offence if you're applying to work with children or vulnerable people.

Re:Do you really think...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure? When you're applying for postgrad studies (UK) and fill in the application form, you are required to tick a box where you indicate if you have a criminal record or not.

Now, somebody with IP-related offenses would probably have a hard time working for a body that has accumulated 'trade-secrets', i.e. not trust-worthy in any sense.

Re:Do you really think...

[Anonymous Coward]

It might have been true where he is located... but remember that criminal law is one area where the EU has very little to do, so I would expect that there would be a lot of variance on how much effect a felony has on your future prospects.

Re:Do you really think...

[Tackhead]

> Do you really think that you could even get 5 people, let alone 5 million people, to turn themselves in?

Sure. What would be even more interesting would be - could you get your local cops to charge you? ;-)

That would create an interesting paradox - show up at your local police station, confess to having downloaded 100 MP3z and having burned them to CD for long road trips.

What good is a law when nobody enforces it?

(And for that matter, what's the statute of limitations on the DMCA? Will we eventually have an annual DMCA-hack-liberation-day when the coolest hacks of the $STATUTEOFLIMITATION years ago can be publicly acknowledged? :)

Re:Do you really think...

[Ashtead]

My guess is that ordinary police would ask you to take a hike. The police probably does prioritize situations where life and limb is at stake. They'd be more interested in catching you speeding on that road trip if anything.

Possibly the Economic Crime unit would have more interest in you, but then again, it may depend on whether you are worth their while.

Besides, isn't these laws primarily civil, not criminal anyways?

Re:Oh well

[Anonymous Coward]

looks like we have some heavy euro-moderation going on here. where are the U.S. mods??

Re:DMCA Sux

[Wastl]

the world trade organization's trade-related intellectual property rights (trips) schedule [wto.org]

What is really funny is that the World Trade Organization apparently considers itself as a "not for profit organization", with it's .org TLD.

Sebastian

I think...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. it is time for a REVOLUTION! Stand up, Germans, and fight for your right to information! Zeit für eine Revolution! Lassen wir das mit uns machen?

Re:DMCA Sux

[lee7guy]

They are only in it for drugs and chicks. Profit is an unfortunate side effect.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently our "communist" education system has managed to teach us how to capatalise the first letter of each sentence. It also teaches us what Communism is.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[blane.bramble]

insanely high taxes,

Between 21% and 40% for the majority of the population. Maybe not insanely low, but not insanely high.

communist health care

The right to free health care is a bad thing?

no right to bear arms

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

This is not necessarily the right to private ownership of arms - it can be argued this is the right for the state to have an armed militia (normally called an Army!). Not everyone views gun ownership as a good thing anyway.

forced conscription

National Service dropped in 1962 I believe.

unbelievable regulation of motor vehicles and communications

I am informed by friends in California that vehicles over here would be regulated off the roads there. Communications is as open as in the US.

rampant trade protectionism

No more and no less than in the US. That's why there are regular "trade wars" between US and European industries - you protect yours, we protect ours...

and now europe's getting its own DMCA

Sadly it looks like this may be the case. But guess which nation much of the lobbying is coming from.

Re:How to avoid imprisonment.

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't see you hand over your cash at the counter, so I suspect that you pirated that Copyright item. Thats a fine of 2000 Euro please.

No, it's competition, but the downside.

[MickLinux]

My brother predicted this, about 4 years back. Essentially, he said that America had been the vanguard (note the past-perfect tense) of justice; this made American business more profitable, and meant that if other countries wanted to keep up, they had to have some reasonable fraction of the same kind of justice.

But as our ignoring the constitution accelerated, it became clear that American justice was not functioning properly, and American business immediately began to hurt. So my brother saw that this was going to happen [remember, 4 years ago we were still in the boom], and predicted that we would see petty dictatorships rise everywhere. Indeed, it happens.

Oh, well. It is indeed a sad day. Europe had the chance to become the leader of justice, and indeed when Lithuania was considering entering, I considered it more of an advantage than a disadvantage, provided that there was good will.

After all, more free trade is better than less free trade. More natural rights is better than more granted rights. Better for the economy, better for the human condition, better, even, for morality.

It seemed there was more of all that. Now I begin to wonder.

abc asd�������asd ������asd��������sadsdadsa������

[Anonymous Coward]

sdffff sdf

1. moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
2. 
   If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

fuck them

[Leahar]

fuck the uk is on the list bastards oh well it may be unlawfull but so are drugs and underage drinking and everyone does them any way i'll be ingnoring it and do you realy think the police will give a flying fuck if i brake that rule still its a bitch i wont be able to get mod chips etc any more

if i could i would fucking move planet the human race aint all its cracked up to be

WTO...

[Jaysyn]

All of the sudden the WTO rioters don't seem so crazy.

Jaysyn

Re:WTO...

[jez9999]

Yes, they do. Because they claim to be protesting 'against globalization', which is such a wishy washy phrase, no wonder nobody listens to them. Now they have a list of damn good reasons to hate the WTO, maybe they could start producing some when asked by journalists.

Re:WTO...

[Jaysyn]

Oops, I meant protestors. Not rioters, the rioters are a little crazy.

Jaysyn

Go to Iran

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that Iran is a quite liberal country, so moving there might be an option to seriously consider.

IT won't make a difference

[Cackmobile]

I am living in the UK. I went on Saturday down to my local markets and bougth from a stall in plain view of everyone Terminator 3 (really naff btw), charlies angels and dark blue. The police here don't even enforce current copyright laws. What a joke!!

Re:IT won't make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

"The police here don't even enforce current copyright laws"

It's not the remit of the police to handle such stuff, but Her Majesty's Customs and Excise. And as such there might have been one in the line behind you when you made your purchases.

The police have been involved in operations before, but they're generally 'muscle' to handle prisoners and loot; essentially it follows the same model as the 'drug war' in this country in terms that they're looking for distributors rather than consumers.

OD (In disguise)

Re:America and Europe .. two sides of the same pon

[jez9999]

At the risk of being modded Flamebait

I think you should be modded -1 Plain Wrong.

it does appear that both continents are inevitably compelled to act similarly. Instances - Iraq

Ahem... what?? Iraq was an example of one of the biggest splits of opinion between the US and certain EU countries ever!!!

, NATO

Again, Iraq caused quite a big split in NATO too.

, DMCA

I'll give you this one. The EU's copying the dumb US law word for word.

, MS anti-trust case

Eh? The US didn't get anywhere against Microsoft with their legal action, but it seems Europe might.

Presently the US seems to have the upper hand, in that it can act more independently, and care less about repercussions from pissing off own citizens...

I totally disagree. They're introducing most of the ridiculous, fascist laws *first* as a template for other countries! They hardly seem scared of citizens rising up and revolting.

Europe adopting this attitude(resistance to Euro) is sickening

How is resisting the Euro helping corporations? If anything it's the PEOPLE of Britain that are against the Euro, and the multinational corps that would be helped most by it, which is probably why Labour is all for it (the corps have massive influence over our 'government').

What can we do?

[MrWorf]

In reality, mostly nothing. The goverments don't seem to care about its citizens. I've tried contacting mine (sweden) and all I know is that someone opened it (since their email client respected my request for read receipt) but nothing more.

And EU is a lot worse ... Just look at the software patent issue. Apparently the EU body that is working on devising such things don't care about the input from the people for whom they are creating the laws.

It stinks...

But, as some has said here, it doesn't really matter (yet) since the police does have more important things to do. However, that doesn't stop the businessindustries own "police" (RIAA, BSA, etc etc etc) to act on their own, with or without apparent support of the law.

What about the European supporters?

[MyNameIsFred]

No question the US government companies have backed such legislation. But there are many large European companies that also back this legislation. To blame the US and only the US is naive. Take for example one of the world's biggest media companies, Vivendi-Universal, its a French company. Or Murdoch and his media conglomerate, he's an Australian...

Re:What about the European supporters?

[JonnyCalcutta]

Take for example one of the world's biggest media companies, Vivendi-Universal, its a French company.

And along with another French company, Suez, they control 40% of the worlds water supplies. America might lead with the fake free-market spin, but there are just as many European corporations happy to tag along (or even take the lead).

Re:What about the European supporters?

[MrOrn]

Or Murdoch and his media conglomerate, he's an Australian

That should read was an Australian; Murdoch is a US citizen as of about 10 years ago.

Freisler anyone? (Re:too far)

[mousse-man]

Seen from the side that even a "suspected violation" can get you fined, the Germans have just proven they follow some 60 year old traditions again.

And with German lawyers very triggerhappy to send out cease-and-desist letters, it won't get any better. Luckily, we don't have any of this crap one country south yet.

Re:Freisler anyone? (Re:too far)

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhat absurdly, German lawyers can send out cease-and-desist letters for violations of copyrights owned by anyone, not just their clients.

This is actually a result of a wider principle that german lawyers can act on criminal stuff even if the victim is unknown, which doesn't sound so absurd, so it's difficult to get rid of the parasites.

Them or us ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's face it; there is no "them or us".
If internet has done /anything/ it is showing people of different backgrounds that we're pretty much alike. I, like you undoubtedly, have met people from all over the world, chatted with them a bit, and wondered where all there "misunderstandings" like that cold-war came from, since they're not that different from me.
What gives birth to these "misunderstandings" is "them or us" thinking. It breeds fear, and promotes the wrong kind of people into power.

If slashdot shows anything, it's that there are "likeminded" people in almost every country in the world. Some more agreeable, some less, but all in all it shows, that no matter how much we /want/ to be different, we aren't all that different at all.

Perhaps one day the ideal of a global village will become truth, a village where everyone realizes that everybody is somebodies direct neightbour, and there is no such thing as "our" freedom, or "their" freedom, but only freedom of "the people". If such a thing ever is to happen, it's seeds are sown now, where you can converse with people all over the planet, and see for yourself that you can like someone in Taiwan even better then your real life neighbour.
To see this idea bloom is the main reason for free speech and digital freedom, and is far more important then copying some music and the (loss of) riches associated with that.

I write this as a fervent anti-USA fanboy, because I don't like what your country does (promote horrid fast-food chains, promote dumb commercial television/channels, spread the belief that once you have a lot of money it doesn't matter how you got it, and overpromoted godawfull pop-music). But never be mistaken that you (if you're an american) and I could sit down ,person to person ,and have a normal conversation about just about everything. Sure there would be disagreement, but that's ok, but I think there would also be alot of things we would agree on, since it's a lot harder to severely dislike a person then an objectified country and everything it supposedly stands for.
If your somewhat Free software inclined, I would probably agree more with you then one of my fellow countrymen, who wouldn't know eroding freedom if it jumped up and bit him in the ass.

All this "them or us" thinking leads to one thing, and that's FUD on a national level. Only when a large part of the populations are capable of thinking and making decisions for themselves, and will not buy into demonization of other countries (I'm not talking about *BSD evangelisation here), will true freedom for all be feasible.
So next time when a headline tells about eroding freedoms, don't think "well, at least it's not 'us' that have to worry about that, let 'them' worry", ultimately it's 'our' freedom it's about, whether you like it our not.

And always remember,
"Bad facts make bad laws"

Re:Them or us ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I was thinking that what Slashdot shows us is the exact opposite: people can develop different opinions and bicker endlessly about the most insignificant things.

Re:Them or us ?

[analog_line]

I write this as a fervent anti-USA fanboy, because I don't like what your country does (promote horrid fast-food chains, promote dumb commercial television/channels, spread the belief that once you have a lot of money it doesn't matter how you got it, and overpromoted godawfull pop-music).

Last I checked the US government doesn't come over to a European nation with an armored brigade and force people at gunpoint to go into McDonalds, buy Coke, watch American-style TV, or make people buy music they don't want to hear. You'll need to have a chat with your fellow citizens about that, as they wouldn't eat the food, buy the drinks, watch the TV/movies, or buy the music unless THEY WANTED TO. Hell, even in hideously authoritarian countries with dictators supported by America, if they're allowed to have music, you're generally not seeing press gangs out there pushing people into record stores and making them buy Britney Spears albums instead of saintly local "artists". If your fellow citizens didn't want all the cultural shit we make available, they wouldn't buy it. While I may not like most of it myself, I have no sympathy for those who buy into the obviously fake American lifestyle our corporations are selling. It's your damage for buying it. The last thing the world needs is a War on American Culture to compete for Dumbest Thing Ever with America's own War on Drugs.

And greed isn't an American export. Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, all have that down pat. What, you just jealous that America is better at being greedy than you are? Suit yourself.

Re:Them or us ?

[qtp]

There is a "them or us" and there always will be. The internet does promise that the definitions of "Them" and "Us" may no longer correspond with national borders. Sorry, but the concept of "the other" is not likely to disappear anytime soon.

I write this as a fervent anti-USA fanboy, because I don't like what your country does (promote horrid fast-food chains, promote dumb commercial television/channels, spread the belief that once you have a lot of money it doesn't matter how you got it, and overpromoted godawfull pop-music).

The US government is not in any way causing the citizens of foriegn countries to consume that crap. Many "Americans" have just as strong a dislike for what corporate culture has foisted upon us and the world as you do.

If you are so sure that Europeans are not guilty of promoting "godawfull pop-music", please listen to the songs entered in the Eurovision Song Contest and see if you still stand by that part of your argument.

New Dutch copy laws

[Pflipp]

Here's another one for you... Our company (0 employees, no xerox) recently got a bill for 45 euro's for "an estimated number of copies made of copy-protected work". Seems like some Dutch organisation is now capable on sending these bills on behalf of ...yeah, of who?

My "company" helps starting artists to get a visible spot on the web to showcase and sell their art. So if there's any organisation that should be on the receiving side of this law, it should be ours. However, the information only goes as far as that we're supposed to either pay or complain.

It is very unclear who benefits from this, but it immediately reminded me of American music industry lobby practices. Luckily for us, this stupid law didn't apply to other forms of copy than "xerox". I'm still pretty stupified by the fact that this law could just exist in Holland, and in fact I'm still trying to forget this.

Re:New Dutch copy laws

[silentbozo]

Wow, they've outsourced corporate welfare. Now, instead of having bureaucrats dinging you with excessive taxes, you can now experience the joy of having spammer/telemarketer/collection agency scum knocking at your door to collect "usage fees", payable direct to your local megacorporation.

What do we have to do, band together and form a corporation to sue them before they sue us? And we have elected governments for what then? :P

Re:New Dutch copy laws

[ReinoutS]

The union of small- and medium business (MKB) as well as the workers' union for independents (FNV Zelfstandigen) have put out statements that call to refuse paying this levy. It seems all is not lost...

Clearly undemocratic

[stewby18]

I mean, that's almost as bad as if there were some sort of confederation of semi-independent regions (let's call them "states") somewhere, and there were some kind of directive (let's call it a "law", or maybe a "constitutional ammendment") that some "states" could be forced to adopt just because some group of people, or most of the other "states", thought it was a good idea.

I'm not sure where you are getting "unelected" from, but the idea that you are pretty much stuck with what the majority wants even if you don't like it, is basically central to the entire concept of democracy.

Re:Clearly undemocratic

[Tackhead]

> I'm not sure where you are getting "unelected" from, but the idea that you are pretty much stuck with what the majority wants even if you don't like it, is basically central to the entire concept of democracy.

Thankfully, it is not central to the concept of a representative republic.

The two systems have much in common, but there are fundamental philosophical differences between them.

Stupid Americans and their DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

er... oops.

Re:Oh well

[silentbozo]

Depending on which state you live in, you may also have a state constitution and bill of rights that give you unique rights that may not exist in other states (ie, unequivocal right to bear arms.) Same as the EU may eventually end up (ie, many local charters, subservient to a federal charter), if they decide to go the federal republic route.

On paper, the US system works fine. That the government infested with lobbyists and monied special interests is not a problem that is limited to the US, although we might have cornered the market on an apathetic, under-educated electorate.

Regarding other people's comments that the US is to blame, Europe has it's own share of media megacorps that are gunning for any advantage they can get away with (ie, Vivendi, Bertelsmann.) Germany also seems to have a problem with lawyers that can sue on behalf of clients that haven't hired them (remember KIllustrator?)

More Freedom?

[The Cydonian]

Freedom has, obviously, many connotations, but let me stick to one, namely economic freedom, ignoring for the moment, the bigger and more directly-affecting political freedom.

In the just concluded free trade negotiations between the US and Singapore, one of the sticking points (pun shamelessly lifted from countless news reports) was the so-called "Wrigley Clause":- the legalisation of sale of gum on "medical" grounds. Singapore, paranoid about its sparkingly clean and efficient subway doors getting stuck with bubble gum, had earlier banned the sale of gum in the island. (Note that it was always sale of gum, not gum per se; import of gum for personal consumption was never banned.)

Now, the ban, IMHO, is as short-sighted as it gets, but it was Singapore's choice, Singaporeans can ban whatever they want. Curiously enough, it turned out to be a stumbling block in the negotiations, which, apparently led to this creative loophole of "medically-sanctioned" gum. I mean, when was the last time a doctor prescribed bubble gum for you?

Then again, to put it in the larger perspective, Singapore lately has begun trying to loosen itself up in earnest, what with other restrictions being eased. Also, to clarify my position, I'm all for free trade; for sure, cities like Singapore, which have historically been entrepots, can only gain from FTA's.

But let's underscore a key subtext in all of this:- for all you know, this could very well be a dramatic demonstration of corporate America's lobbying power.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in the US the right for free public speech is the topmost right -- just after the copyright laws.

So in the US, you can say everything, be it racistic, discriminating or whatever and you can insult people as you like, *unless* you violate someone's copyright or patent rights. This is a real, great achievement you can be proud of.

i wouldn't worry about it

[ReLik]

due to the eu the next world war (or should it now be called a 'civil war') will take place. i`m guessing within the next 2 decades. seeing as when a country joins the eu they're going to be bound by a constitution meaning they cannot EVER leave the eu. which means the eu can only break apart when either ALL countries agree (not gunna happen) or if there's a war, which there will be.

the eu is a big dictatorship in the making, they're taking over countries with a "one size fits all" attitude, with disreguard for national identity, suddenly everyone is "european" not "german", "french" or "belgian" etc.

the eu should be one thing, a free-trade market. that's what these countries signed up for, and suddenly they're being told they're going to be one big federal state like the US. they're making the EU into a single country through the back door.

every couple of days i see a new law being passed or proposed by the eu which restricts peoples rights, it's the exact opposite of the US - the us was for freedom for the ppl, the EU is freedom for the politicians.

you only have to look at the laws proposed by the EU to see how bad it is, regardless of whether or not they're passed, the fact that EU politicians want to have a common foreign policy etc shows just how disgusting this is.

the norwegians aren't being pushed into cos they have a source of finance, same with lichenstein, i think switzerland along with great britain aren't swallowing their shit.

this will end in tears, it will end in a war, maybe before then it'll end in a US - EU cold-war II situation.

Re:i wouldn't worry about it

[nutshell42]

Nice try

Unfortunately for trolls everywhere it *is* possible to leave the Union according to the new constitution

you only have to look at the laws proposed by the EU to see how bad it is

You know that most stuff you see currently had to be passed unanimously by the heads of state or the appropriate ministers respectively, don't you?

Re:i wouldn't worry about it

[ReLik]

actually. you are incorrect. once you join the eu under the constition, you cannot leave. ever.

and the heads of state are owned by europe anyway, which is why no peoples can trust their leaders.

nub.

Re:i wouldn't worry about it

[nutshell42]

Draft

TREATY ESTABLISHING A CONSTITUTION FOR EUROPE

TITLE IX: UNION MEMBERSHIP

Article 59: Voluntary withdrawal from the Union

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the European Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

Re:i wouldn't worry about it

[ReLik]

Nice try. But that isn't in the constitution. The creators of the Constitutional Convention want to delete this article completely, stopping it from every getting into the constitution.

A quote from them themselves:
"we propose this article to be deleted. In our view, the nature of the Union is not compatible with such an exit clause. This is why it has not been inserted on the current treaties. Besides, being the Union the result of the will of sovereign States, no one questions their right to withdraw from the Union. The 1969 Viena [sic] Convention on the "Law of Treaties" provides already for this situation. And the Constitution is, for all legal effects, an international treaty"

Fact is it won't get into the constitution because excuses are being made for why it is not necessary, but those excuses don't actually hold any weight. Until the final draft of the constitution you will see all kinds of disgusting shit 'taken out' from the draft, and then you'll see them in the final draft again. It's to make people feel at ease with the situation, to think they're in control of it, and then suddenly it's in through the back door and it's too late, public opinion thinks it's great and you're stuck there for a generation or two before a civil war breaks out.

We signed up to the free-trade agreement. We don't want nor need anything else. What's the point in getting into the centre of the EU so we can have a bigger say over how we're run, when we could simply not be in the EU and have 100% control of how we're run.

The DMCA will never reach outside the US

[gosand]

I seem to remember non-Americans stating right here on Slashdot that the DMCA was a US problem, because nothing like that would ever pass on their shores. They would never stand for it!

Well, let's see it Europeans.

I was really hoping you were right.

Re:The DMCA will never reach outside the US

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you already gave up on fighting the DMCA back in the States? Shame on you.

Re:The DMCA will never reach outside the US

[Arandir]

This is Slashdot. You know the drill. Stick your head in the sand and chant "US is Great Satan." This is the land of the double standard.

All you need to know: [US|Microsoft|RIAA|MPAA|corporations] are [evil|great satan|fascist] and only [GPL|Linux|socialism] will save us.

Jebus f'ing christ -- ITS THE WTO!

[SubtleNuance]

Do you know that the DMCA is the result of a treaty passed by the WIPO (itself a cousin of WTO)? When you see people, protesting in the streets to end the WTO treaties -- THE DMCA IS JUST ONE UNDEMOCRATIC, ANTI-CITIZEN products of the WTO!!

For all the times on /. ive posted this link, and other bits that let people know exactly where the DMCA is coming from -- no one seems to put two and two together.

Please read below:anti-dmca.org/faq_local.html

For the Pro-public domain crowd at /., who dont support overbearing copyright law, do you realize, that the people who are protesting in the streets -- the world over -- against the WTO are on your side ? This /. crowd, being very in-tune with IP and Technology are just one small group, angry and frustrated with the DMCA. The DMCA is a PRODUCT of un-democratic bodies like the WTO -- literally funded by massive multi-nationals -- who are re-writing international relations in order to entrench their power. The DMCA is just ONE MINOR aspect of this effort.

The USA's corrupt, plutocratic government is only partly responsible for the DMCA, in reality, they have empowered the bureaucracy to take their weight and allow it to be wielded by the Lobbyists and Lawyers of International Capitalists.

It doesnt matter if you think Im a crazed (i am not) anti-capitalist (i am), the reality is that Corporate Bodies are very literally writing international treaties, that are later enforced in the domestically in the USA, Canada, Australia, EU etc etc etc. The WTO is staffed / funded by the International Plutocrats... * THEY * are responsible for the DMCA -- your corrupt Congress is only an after-thought in the DMCA effort.. and all the rest.

Re:Jebus f'ing christ -- ITS THE WTO!

[Abcd1234]

Erm... if this is true, why is it that Canada has no such law, either enacted or drafted for legislation? Sure, we have a few somewhat draconian laws (levies on blank media being the most obvious), but nothing so onerous as the DMCA.

Re:Jebus f'ing christ -- ITS THE WTO!

[Anonymous Coward]

this is true. there is no debate -- and canada HAS signed this treaty.

Re:Jebus f'ing christ -- ITS THE WTO!

[Abcd1234]

Incidentally, the site you linked to says this:

Some believed further U.S. legislation was necessary to implement U.S. adherence to the treaty.

Note, the phrase "some believed". Now, as I mentioned in another post, Canada currently does not have a DMCA-like law, nor is there one in the works (that I know of, I'd love to be proven wrong). Which begs the question, what exactly does this supposed new WIPO treaty require? The site you linked to doesn't appear to have the text of the particular treaty available which references DMCA-like laws (again, I'd love a link to it). And without the text, we cannot know what is required of the member states. Now, coming back to Canada, perhaps it is the case that it is up to the government to decide whether existing laws regarding copyright, et al, are sufficient to meet treaty obligations (the above text implies that). And if that is indeed the case, I wonder why it is that some countries feel the ned to ammend/pass new legislation (eg, the US) and some do not (eg, Canada).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the WTO or WIPO, but I really do wonder what the situation is regarding this treaty, and if I should be paying close attention in case Canada gets strong-armed into attempting to implement a DMCA-like law.

Re:Jebus f'ing christ -- ITS THE WTO!

[Rares Marian]

Canada has one but the acronym came from the million monkey office so I can't remember what it's called. www.dibona.org has it I believe.

Re:Attention

[analog_line]

The US has, in the past, threatened to walk out of international talks because other participants refused to consider the implementation of DMCA-esque laws.

To which I wonder why anyone cares if they believe the US only wants to increase their dominance through those talks? I should think further isolating America would serve the purpose of European politicians quite satisfactorily.

But isn't "international consensus" good?

[Anonymous Coward]

And "unilateralism" bad.

What's the difference between the WTO overprotecting copyrights and the UN overprotecting wacko rulers and terrorists? (well, except for that fact one's only about money, not lives...)

Even Charles de Gaulle called the UN a "useless organization run by petty dictators" and usually ignored it totally.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[SubtleNuance]

If you include the money, paid out-of-pocket by Americans for their health care, and add the two, the US moves up pretty fast in the "most taxed" list (top 5 i thought)...

Americans look down their nose at europe/canada; "You pay Soooooo much tax" but then dont consider EXACTLY what programs are offered.

Subvert the DMCA like the Corp's Do!

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that all one would have to do to force a change in DMCA laws is create a virus, copyright the code, then sue the antivirus companies when they reverse engineer it in order to update there anti-virus definitions.

Of course, you'd have to be willing to go to jail, but you'd leave jail a wealthy person.

Re:Subvert the DMCA like the Corp's Do!

[Anonymous Coward]

you'd leave jail with a bunghole like this.

Europe: Stand up to the US and WTO.

[Maul]

I'm a US citizen, and I do not like seeing this happen in other countries.

Other countries need to stand up to the United States and the WTO, and say "no." I'm sure most people in Europe do not want Europe to become exactly like the United States.

Tell your politicians that you do not want the European Union to turn into the "United States East," which it is slowly (maybe not so slowly anymore) becoming.

This "DMCA in Europe" is likely being pushed through by the WTO, which seems to serve the interests of giant corps who would like nothing more than to see Europe turn into a mirror of what the US has become.

I was rather refreshed to see France stand up and say "NO" to Bush on Iraq. I'd enjoy it even more if other countries in Europe started following suit and saying "NO" to the US and US-Style legislation.

Crap like the DMCA is bad enough in the US. It doesn't need to go overseas.

Re:Europe: Stand up to the US and WTO.

[cunta_cinte]

Not only you are so stupid it is scary, your own website is just as brain-dead as you are.

Why DMCA must be attacked in the USA

[argoff]

The real guage of the success of the DMCA will be in the USA. If it rises in the USA, there will effectively be economic pressures to make it rise everywhere - if it fails in the USA it the same pressures will cause it to fail everywhere. The reason for this is simple - the US was the first to get a tase of the information age, and was the first to feel the heat from copyrights effectively becoming unenforcable.

Who is the bigger fool...

[Moby-One GNUbie]

The fool, or the fool who follows him?

That's the last straw

[Kphrak]

I've had enough of draconian legislation that infringes on my rights online. I'm moving to Europe!

Oh...wait...

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your spelling of "sucks" sucks

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Rip!ey]

No more and no less than in the US. That's why there are regular "trade wars" between US and European industries - you protect yours, we protect ours...

While the rest of the world suffers for it ...

The EUCD, EU enlargement and DVD region codes

[A Godfather]

On May 1st 2004, the three Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, will join the European Union (EU). These countries, as former USSR republics, belong to DVD region 4, while all the other members in 2004 will belong to DVD region 2.

From the very beginning, the EU has been about the creation of a single market and the removal of internal barriers against the circulation of people, goods, services, and capital. So if a good is legally in the EU, it is free to move anywhere within the EU without any restriction.

What will happen with DVDs? Manufacturers of DVD players are supposed to sell their products only in the area covered by the applicable region code. The same goes for the disks themselves. Thus manufacturers will try to prevent the free circulation of goods (DVD and players) between the Baltic countries and the other members, because these countries are in another DVD region.

Isn't that likely to render the DVD region coding scheme simply illegal under the EU internal market rules, since it amounts to voluntary fragmentation of EU markets? And if so, won't the circumvention of the region code, illegal under the EUCD, be authorised because the region coding itself would be illegal?

DMCA in Canada?

[GoofyBoy]

Anyone have any status of DMCA like laws here in Canada?

You people just dont get it.

[nurb432]

We have lost. Its just a matter of cleaning up the mess.

The rights of the people are pretty much gone. While we believe some still exist, that is only because we either have not noticed, or 'they' haven't decided to remove them officially.

Its all down hill from here. If more people would have stood up when it mattered we might not be in this boat now, on the river to total control.

DMCA = "Gesetz zur Regelung des Urheberrechts..."

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual name of the law that has been approved in the Bundestag and -rat is called the "Gesetzes zur Regelung des Urheberrechts in der Informationsgesellschaft", which essentially translates to "DMCA".

Yes, it contains legal protection against circumventing "reasonalble technical means" of protection as long as the work is labeled as being protected (indeed, some means of protection would go unnoticed if they weren't labeled as being there ;)

However it does allow for private backup copies and describes in which cases the explicit authorization to use copyrighted works is not required.

The law is at:

http://dip.bundestag.de/btd/15/000/1500038.pdf

(German law -- really tough, and only describes what paragraphs are being changed, so by itself it is of little use).

Here is the summary:

"
Im Urheberrechtsgesetz wird mit dem neuen 19a das Recht der öffentlichen
Zugänglichmachung" eingeführt. Ferner werden die sog. Schrankenregelungen
des Urheberrechtsgesetzes den Vorgaben der Richtlinie angepasst. Die Schrankenregelungen
bestimmen, in welchen Fällen Urheber es hinnehmen müssen,
dass ihre Werke ohne ihre ausdrückliche Zustimmung genutzt werden. Das Urheberrechtsgesetz
ist hier nur in ganz geringfügigem Umfang zu ändern. Es
wird klargestellt, dass auch die digitale Privatkopie zulässig ist. Außerdem werden
wirksame technische Schutzmaßnahmen" vor Umgehung geschützt. Hiermit
schützen Rechtsinhaber in der digitalen Welt Inhalte vor der Nutzung ohne
ihre Einwilligung. Wer technische Schutzmaßnahmen verwendet, muss darauf
durch entsprechende Kennzeichnung hinweisen.
Ferner regelt das Gesetz, dass ausübende Künstler - wie z. B. Musiker und
Schauspieler - hinsichtlich ihrer Darbietungen nicht nur das von der Richtlinie
zwingend vorgegebene neue Recht der öffentlichen Zugänglichmachung" als
Ausschließlichkeitsrecht erhalten, sondern auch insgesamt hinsichtlich ihrer
Rechtsstellung den Urhebern angenähert werden.
"

Vote with the wallet

[Captain Igloo]

The German DMCA replica has one little positive aspect: copy-protected media MUST be labeled as such. This means, it must be visible to the purchaser BEFORE opening the package or breaking the seal that the CD/DVD/whatever has copy protection.

Therefore, it is easier now to refuse buying crappy products. Of course, this helps only if you are not so spineless as to let the big media companies force copy protection down your throat. Be an educated customer, or you get what you deserve!

A portion of our show we call ... "Whaaaaaa?"

[BorgCopyeditor]

The number of European countries enacting their ignorance of the sad experiences from Four Years under the DMCA

I've read this about three times, and I still don't understand how what it says is supposed to connect with what it's trying to say.

Fascinating stuff

[beavis88]

Thanks for the link - I had no idea this type of law had been around for such a long time.

It ain't over till it's over

[argoff]

I disagree, freedom begets progress and progress needs freedom. It's just like 1850, US society simply couldn't move forward with the industrial revolution unless we got rid of slavery first. Near the end, slavery laws were harsher than they had ever been in the history of human kind - the sign of a desperate people trying to make an unworkable system work. The same is true with the DMCA today. IMHO, our society simply can't move forward into the information age with the current copyright system in place. People are desperately trying to force it, but they are not leading the way into the future - they are only desperately reacting to forces like free (not as in beer) software, the internet, and similar such forces in general. They are not in the drivers seat anymore, that's all there is too it.

Fantasy

[nurb432]

That is a Fantasy world at this point. Not faulting you for being idealistic, but the cold hard facts is the 'system' is in control.

If you don't believe me, look around at the restrictions and laws being placed on what is supposed to be guaranteed in the constitution.

Look around at all the people being jailed or harassed because they flew the flag sideways, or because they disclosed 'restricted' knowledge ( that wasn't restricted yesterday.. )

Don't get me wrong I will defend the USA as my home to the end, and what it *stood* for. I just don't agree with the direction we are heading. However we are not alone, its a worldwide progression into the depths of total control of its people.

As a side note I totally disagree on the slavery comment. But to comment on that would be even more OT then this was..

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[blane.bramble]

While the rest of the world suffers for it ...

Certainly much of the 'third world' does. But unless you can get everyone to play by the same set of rules, it's unlikely to change - look at how closed the Japanese market is to outside investment (and influence). No-one can afford to play fair if one single nation/trade block refuses.

[OT] Slashcode bug

[orkysoft]

If you encounter this problem, you could post a message in the discussion, and Slashcode will remove all your moderations for that discussion.

America vs Europe

[neves]

These laws follow the usual pattern of pro-corporate legislation. They usually are approved first in USA, then they try to apply it in all the developed countries. Suddenly all countrys that don't follow it are not serious ones. They will have to have similar laws to enter WTO

Good point...

[qtp]

The "anti-globalization" lobby is as wrong minded as the WTO. Globalization of markets is going to happen no matter what is done to prevent it, and the WTO protesters have continuosly failed to accept that argument.

The flaws in the WTO lie in pushing a vision of corporate control over international market regulations that prevents governments from protecting thier people from contaminated foodstuffs, poor quality products and unfair business practices.

The WTO should not exist as a decision making body, but not for the reasons given by the anti-globalization lobby.

Ich bin ein Internet Censor!

[Anonymous Coward]

A revolution is always only three missed meals away, except in Germany, of course where the Volk is conditioned to stand far worse abuse...

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[cunta_cinte]

Yeah, this is called freedom.
I get to decide when and how much money I will spend on my healt-care.

What , you want people to have a choice as far as copying copyrigthed music is concerned but you don't want them to have any choice in such matters as their own health ?

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You appear to be a known troll, sir! What's that? What's that noise? Ohhhh...that noise is the righteous power of Jesus! Coming to deliver to you, sir, a RIGHTEOUS SMACKDOWN! Yes, that's correct, Jesus is going to deliver to you a righteous smackdown! Enjoy!

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[SubtleNuance]

heheh in your case, choice == money to buy care... what do those without money do? die?

THAT is the basic difference... the rest of the world has (via their democratic institutions) decided that THEY are better with universal and equal care FOR ALL. THAT is OUR choice.

get it? Do you know what Social Democracy is?

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is pure nonsense, US healthcare institutions are required by law to afford help to anyone with a life-threatening condition.

Re:I am sorry but how could this be modded funny ?

[Anonymous Coward]

and "Life Threatening" is what, a bullet wound? Eye injury? Broken leg? Throat infection? What do they do if they simply get sick?