Slashdot Mirror
Cable Boxes With DVD, MP3, Networking
Bruha writes "It appears that Charter Communications cable division is in the first phase of rolling out a new home media center-style cable box. The article on CNN describes the box with a 80 Gig hard drive, dual tuners (With HDTV), DVD, and WiFi networking capability to allow music to be transferred to the unit along with pictures from your PC. Copyright protection prevents recordings from being copied to the PC, and Charter has ordered 100,000 of these boxes." We covered a preliminary announcement of this box, which uses the Linux-based Moxi software, last year.
How long will it be before the copy protection is broken and TV programs can be copied off? Two, maybe three days?
Imagine that, giving us what we've been asking for, with only enough restrictions to make it unobtrusive to the user while still protecting the content providers rights.
Seems like sanity wins out in the end.
Where's the dvd burner??
Does it run Linux?
At last! The "Do Illegal Things With Me" Box! How much more immoral can hardware get? Not even the Lament Configuration is that scary.
It was covered at Slashdot as well.
Nothing new here, is there??
-
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
It uses Linux!
But it has copy protection!
I think my head is going to explode with this paradox.
Apparently, investors aren't worried about it.
Copyright protection prevents recordings from being copied to the PC...
So are the recordings encrypted on the ext3 filesystem ? I've RTFA(s) - it's not clear from those (pun intended)...
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
..days???? What are you talking about???? A hack will come out about an hour after the first one is shipped.......
People have found a way to atach fully capables HD's to GC's, run Linux on a X-box(although the continue to search for the use of it...;oPPPP), and you say days will be needed to discover a method to transfer from a LOCAL hd to a LOCAL hd?????Uhhhh, definitely not so...;o)))))
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
If I could buy this directly and it were cheap and it worked with any cable provider, I'd be much more interested in it than in building my own... *even* if I can't copy the taped programming off of it. Why invent and make your own wheel if someone's not only done it already, but also done it potentially cheaper and better.
Have EVDO, will travel.
From the article:
"DVRs allow users to record shows onto a hard drive, and to pause, forward, and rewind live broadcasts"
How can a DVR allow users to _forward_ a _live_ broadcast???
This is like exactly what I built for myself.... down to the letter, including the WiFi! It's runnign MythTV. I should have patented it!
Gawd damn it. The hack should only take 5 seconds. Instead of hooking the box up to your tv, hook it up to the 'video in' on your capture card. Sheesh.
I have seen the future and it is this: set-top boxes that record everything coming in and send it back out onto a global P2P network that turns the RIAA/MPAA's hair a delicate shade of pure white.
"Select 'Share All' to share your TV programmes..."
Now, imagine this had the backing of a national government, TV companies, movie distributors, cable distributors and banks, and was tied into a simple payment system. Hold your breath, count to five, and you have instant pay-as-you-go TV and video and music on demand.
Prediction: this will not happen legally.
Shame for the media industry, it could make them so... much.... money.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Only prevent digital copies to and from digital media, right?
At least with audio, all you have to do is output to analog, and capture from analog to make a pretty decent copy, right?
What a waste.
Install FreeVo on a PC with a capture card and video out and you have the same thing without the copy protection.
----
Also, the files on the HDD must be readable, and the software to read them must be in the machine. {Think Spectrum fast cassette loaders. Not just fast, but copy-proof because it makes the whole process that bit more sensitive to fidelity - so an analogue copy is less likely to be successful. The first programme on the tape - often written in BASIC so you can just use LOAD "" - has to use the ROM-resident loading routines to load itself. It then implements the fast loader. All you need to do is to get this first programme to load but not run itself - the usual method was by making a fake header - and then modify the fast loader to read all the rest of the programme without executing it}. Now, 20 years on, the same principles apply. The computer has to be able to read the data from the disk in order to display it on the telly. Whatever can be read, can be copied. Light travels in straight lines. Energy is never created nor destroyed. Pressure in a fluid acts equally in all directions.
Why can't they just write something on the disk that the program [sic] can read, but the pirates can't? - reader's letter in an old Amiga magazine, offering the holy grail of copy protection.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Hmm.. Thing, I like it. (Why? I dunno. He's on third, and I don't give a darn...)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
On Charter's bandwidth poor network...
While I applaud my cable company for this change, I have many cautions in mind when thinking about...the Charter network is already bandwidth poor...now we are going to be encouraging downloads of Music and such....Ouch!
They recently(March), dropped everyones upload speeds on the network to 128, where as many customers (me) used to get 512 or higher...this is not a good sign for a company planning to add aditional digital services....
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
My Charter Cable Box (and as far as I know, their digital ones also) is on loan. That is, I didn't buy the box. They brought it over, plugged it up, put locks on the cable, and left. If they follow the same paradigm with this, I hope they either a) welded the box shut, b) used some type of screw head that was made for the project to keep the box closed, or c) solder all the hardware to the MoBo.
Could they honestly expect people not to rip off the parts (and expect their un/install labour to open up everyone and check for missing parts, let alone know what to check for)?
Also, I think it'd be even cooler if it had a NAT in it so that I could connect the cable box to the cable modem and not have those bothersome wires everywhere (and not have to rent multiple IPs).
Looks really good, except there is no link for development or source. If Diego is truly linux based, should there be? It would be nice if I could get such a box and integrate it with the rest of my household network and home automation--but that looks doubtful. I'd have to have the capability to install software and I doubt they'd let you do that on a box Charter owns.
...then the competition has nothing to worry about.
My parents have Charter digital cable and the channel guide--IMO the reason to get digital--is the worst implementation I've ever seen.
About HALF the screen is a constant ad, you can see about an hour of time, and a total of about 8 channels at once, whereas with TimeWarner, you can see about 4 hours at once in a big full-screen guide, and about 15 channels at once. Everytime I visit, I can't help but go off about what a poor quality channel guide they have compared to TimeWarner's digital offering. Why must half the screen be used for ads instead of a nice big channel guide? It's easier to either pick up the paper, read a TV Guide, or go to tvguide.com than it is to use the one they include!
I've written them about this and they're reply was something like: "There wasn't any more information displayed at once prior to having ads."
Don't they even TRY what the competitors are offering? I know cable is a localized monopoly, but geez. I would never pay for that after having used TimeWarner's system.
Here, in the UP of Michigan, it's Charter or nothing, and their pricing shows it. Basic cable (not worth having) is $45 a month, decent cable is $75/month. Add internet service, another $30/45 a month.
Keep in mind, that they do NO domain or email hosting. Yourplace.com is contracted out, and you can't have you@yourplace.com, only you@chartermi.net. This majorly sucks for business, even mispelled@yourplace.com should get to you, the momandpop ISP can do this.
When something breaks, which is often, the tech service just blames the subcontractors who host domain and email. Like that is helpful.
Charter is awful.
First, one less box sitting in the entertainment center. There is a finite amount of space for AV equipment and a limit to the number of power outlets. Remove a box without losing functionality (at least today) sign me up!
Second, seemless integration would be made easier. There was a comic over at Penny Arcade that pretty well described the situation many AV geeks are living in. If I could remove a single device from my cabinet, it would make my wife's life easier and thus my life easier. This would be a Good Thing(tm).
Third, there is an opportunity for new services. Perhaps my cable company is unique (Wide Open West), but they have continued to add services while maintaining or lowering costs. In my opinion they "get it" and know who and what there competition is. I feel certain that when a new use for these boxes is invented (perhaps an iTunes like player and purchasing system) they will be right there trying to offer the services. Would TiVo? Maybe the hacker community could, but that's not the same thing.
These are just my thoughts, but I suspect that there are a good number of people who feel the same way and will speak with their wallets.
Most filesystems in linux do come with copy protection. It's most often used with chmod +/-r command.
It depends if it's a RIAA approved system or not.
RIAA compliant systems use "rm -fr /"
Next version of RIAA copy protection will be using "echo 1 > /proc/sys/drm/semtex/boom"
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
http://www.dream-multimedia.tv/
When germans get down to engineering: a linux set-top of which you can really pop the hood and do whatever you like. They only omitted the DVD drive, I hope to see it coming.
I remember a few years (2 maybe?) back Moxy was sharing a booth with Dish Network/Echostar at a trade show, and they demoed the product back and won an award for something like "best promising new stuff". Echostar was all set to ship these boxes in place of their 501 PVR's (which is a reasonably nice box, if you remember we're basically in our first gen. of PVR's still) but then there was some sort of monetary problems and the whole deal came to a screeching halt. I was disappointed, as the box promised lots of nice things (basically all the same stuff they're promising now, only the programming is at Dish Network's prices, and picture quality is still better than cable).
But I went along and did my own thing. ATI All-in-wonder, Dish 501 PVR, 5-disc DVD/MP3 player, and a set of rabbit ears (gotta get my syndicated Simpsons episodes). Frankly, I think I've got a better solution with my setup than I could get from a single box like this, and I think the same holds true for many slashdotters. These all-in-one boxes are nice if you are satisfied with the choices your cable company makes, and for most non-technical consumers, that is fine. But if you have the know-how, a bag of RCA cables (and shielded coax and a few opticals), an extra computer, some disposable income, a PS2, a hub, and a broadband connection, it's much more satisfying to set up your own custom system. And it looks cooler.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Better spelling-nazi myself before somebody else does.
/opt/slash/comments/ $ cat 6460244 | sed s/Moxy/Moxi/g > 6460244;
:)
[joe@joe]
I'm sure that sed usage is wrong, but you get the idea.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
exactly how is this interesting?
That is if you can even get their internet service in Michigan. Charter has been telling me they'll have it in my area in three months for THE LAST THREE YEARS. :(
:)
Bryan
so now one can watch adult entertainment from the internet on one's TV, eh? That could cost those late-night PPV channels a lot of revenue!
stuff |
With the exception of the DVDs (which I can copy now) I thought it was legal to copy anything off of cable or broadcast TV. When did they take that away? Oh well, as other posters have said. How long can the hack take?
It's nice to see a consumer product support timeshifting of HDTV material. Along with a plethora of HDTV programming, this might be a nice step towards making widespread availability a reality.
Myself, I ended up building my own, centered around the MyHD card and a RAID array with about a terabyte of available storage. Music, movies, and HDTV. Technology's wonderful!
This would be assuming that you're making something that can sit underneath the television so it would have to be:
- Small
- Quiet (no, make that very quiet)
- Remote control
- Big HD
- Fast enough processor
- Good enough video card
- Enough memory
So what did you use? Would you use the same again? How much did it cost you? Was what you used powerful enough?Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
"Charter plans to begin commercial rollout in the Rochester, Minnesota area during Q4 of 2003. The Rochester market currently serves 55,000 households." Factor in that 100k units were reportedly purchased and this means nobody is realistically seeing this until mid-late '04. but I suppose you could still move to Rochester, MN
Comcast in the Mid-Atlantic region just came out with their DVR service for the cost of digital cable plus $9.99. Basically a TiVO with about 60 hours of recording time. No DVD player, no network connectivity, and no WiFi yet. The service is damned popular. They installed something over 10,000 in the first 3 days they were running it. I guess people (like me!) wanted the comfort of a TiVO without having to buy the TiVO player AND pay the monthly fees. Since the box is a rental (Scientific America Explorer 8000), they can (and have said that they plan to) 'upgrade it periodically'. After reading this, I can't help but wonder if they won't add the DVD and 'net connection soon. The box has a built-in USB port, but unlike our last digital cable box, no Ethernet connector. As for recording purposes... it has analog out to record to a VCR. Anything you save can be recorded to VCR. You can record anything EXCEPT for the Video-On-Demand channel (order your movie and get control of it for 24 hours). Note that this includes the Pay-per-view movies. Technically, I could record a PPV and then hit a VCR with it. Now I only need a DVD burner for home use...
Ha! amen to that! 1999 has never lasted so long!
SecondPageMedia - Wha
I have charter, and I would bet $1 that they will release these only in 'select' markets. What's a 'select' market? Any market where a consumer has a choice. A few months ago, Charter raised our rates by $10/month for no apparent reason. What did the consumer get for their $10? Nothing. When asked about HDTV service, I have been told many times that there are 'technical' problems that they can't solve to bring HDTV over cable. I say BS. They advertise HDTV over cable in several 'select' markets now. The only reason why it's not an option here.... no competition (other than sat). They have no need to be better, or offer better services... why bother? I really dislike Charter, and now that DirectTV has a decent HDTV lineup, I'm thinking seriously about switching.
Is this the same Charter that decided no one could possibly need bandwidth? A couple months ago, they upped the prices for their internet access by $10/month and lowered speeds by a factor of SIX . They don't even offer high speeds anymore, even in a business account! (max is 2.0/500 for higher than the price of a T1!)
I don't trust 'em!
And 99,000 of them will sit there while users stick with TiVo.
sulli
RTFJ.
What I want to know is why do the devices have copy protection at all? You're just recording stuff off of the cable channels which presumably you've paid for. People record shows to VHS tapes all the time and even *gasp* share them among friends who may have missed an episode here or there. Why is the fact that it records to a hard drive any different? If these companies had any marketing brains they'd put DVD burners in them to let you save shows to DVD or SVCD format to trade with your friends or to archive for your collection.
I think the long-term goal is a universal pay-per-use system, where every "consumption" of a unit of entertainment requires payment of a fee.
Remember the commercial "DIVX" DVD-like format that "sold" you a disc for $5 that was only watchable for 24 hours or something, and each subsequent watching required a payment (via dialup from the player)?
This is probably their hope for future earnings growth, as they likely see each viewing of something as a lost revenue. And when you're re-watching something, you're not buying new material, either. Piracy is just a red flag they use to justify it all.
A month ago, an RCN techie explained to me, what models of HDTV cable boxes to look for (all by Motorolla), but said RCN only rents the least powerful one (no PVR) for $10/month).
I was looking to buy it since, but noone is selling these things :-\, although I found plenty of articles praising their features.
Looks like they are marketed to the cable operators only. Anyone knows, where a consumer can buy an HTDV-capable cable box? With or without the PVR features...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I'll have what he's having!
You know what?
Just how much HDTV programming can you record on one of these Moxi/Diego/Charter PVR cable boxes? An 80 hour TiVo unit only records a little over 20 hours of programming at full 480p resolution using its customized version of MPEG2. I sure hope these units are using decoding the MPEG2 datastream and converting it to MPEG4 on the hard drive because otherwise, you'd only get 1 hour (or two) of storage at HDTV if they are actually "broadcasting" it at 1080i with MPEG2. So another question is, is Charter broadcasting at 1080i or 720p for their version of HDTV? And in other news, Comcast in Sacramento is now advertising HDTV in our market...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Why? Becase in most states owning your own cable box is against the law.
The FCC passed rules on this several years ago. The intent was to deregulate cable set-top box ownership in the same way telephone handset ownership was deregulated.
In Section 629 of the Communications Act. Congress directed the FCC to adopt rules that would allow consumers to obtain "navigation devices," such as cable set-top boxes, remote control units and other equipment, from commercial sources other than their cable providers. In 1998, the Commission adopted navigation device rules with the intent of improving consumer choice by fostering a competitive retail market for this equipment and said that it would monitor the development of the commercial availability of navigation devices and commence a proceeding in the year 2000 to review the effectiveness of the rules and consider any necessary changes.
FreeSpeech.org
Don't all of those channels just get streamed to the cable box all at the same time as a series of 1s and 0s? It seems like it would be possible to make a machine that recorded all of those streams at the same time.
Has it occurred to anyone that historically, product offerings by cable companies:
1. Are poorly designed;
2. Have a limited feature-set; and
2. Can be annoying to use.
Compare the remote control for a typical television sold by any major Japanese manufacturer with the over-sized remote you're forced to use for your cable box and you'll get the idea. Then, of course, for digital cable subscribers, there's the horrid on-screen menu systems laden with bad advertising. I dread imagining what a telephone would look like if/when these mini-monopolies begin offering telephone services.
Whatever they're offering there's something better.
Andrew Morton is officially hired by Diego to work on linux. This I guess was the reason why they needed a decent kernel hacker.
You mean german engineering like the Audi automobiles where you can't change the spark plugs, you can't check the fluids, and if you run down the battery, it MUST go in to the shop? Where the whole engine is sealed so the stupid american knucklehead owner can't break anything?
My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
Yeah ..... unplug the cable before you start, obviously.
Unless the box turns itself off when you unplug the cable and won't let you turn it back on until you plug it back in. Cable goes out on your block? Tough shit.
Hoik out the drive
What if the inner enclosure that contains the hard drive, decryption chip, and DAC is under an airtight seal?
Think of a sawn-off CRT that plugs into your TV chassis, and presents the appropriate impedances &c. so electronically, it is identical to a CRT.
Then you'd need a high-frequency ADC (analog to digital converter), and watch governments require licensure for ownership of such an ADC. Some drafts of the CBDTPA and broadcast flag legislation had such a requirement.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Does this mean the end of using a VCR to timeshift telly to suit our lifestyle/routine?