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Slashback: Railing, Blocking, Scoffing

Posted by timothy on from the in-seattle-it-never-rains dept.

Slashback tonight brings you more information on homemade railguns, the future history of SCO (seen from the past), one website's response to alleged RIAA mendacity, a legal victory for famous web jerk Tucker Max, and more -- read on for the details.

Please don't point that thing at me. BoomZilla writes "If you thought that the recent Gauss Gun article on Slashdot was spiffy, check out Jengel & Fatro's Rail Gun Page. Everything you need to know about the physics behind building your very own rail gun. Ever used the Quake rail gun and lusted after the real thing? Here's your opportunity."

Telepathic telegrams work as well as ever, though. markgo2k writes "After the web site experienced 'an unusually high number of visitors,' the White House modified the contact page and added a prominent link to president@whitehouse.gov. Here's the latest NYT story (once again, reprinted here in the non-subscription Seattle PI). Of course, the White House is still confused on the difference between the New York Times effect and the Slashdot effect. It's not mentioned in the story, but there is also now a feedback link to submit comments to the 'White House Web Development Team,' if you want to drop them a line..."

It's half-Greek to me. In response to the recent story on perpendicular data storage in next-generation hard drives, Anonymous Coward writes "Here is a better overview of Perpendicular HDD technology. Here is a real detailed scientific article that seems to be written in Greek."

They're off my Christmas card list, too. Techfocus ran an interview with Fred von Lohmann earlier this year. Now, an anonymous reader points to an update on their site: "Effective immediately, the RIAA and MPAA will need to find another way to get to Techfocus. In response to their legal targeting of individual file-swappers, access from their known networks to this site has now been blocked. While it may still be possible for them to access Techfocus via address ranges which we're not aware of, they'll otherwise have to use non-RIAA and non-MPAA networks to view the site."

Techfocus cites three reasons for the denial, the top one being that the RIAA took advantage of the interview with von Lohmann, "quoting him out of context in a manner which could lead readers of their materials to believe that we supported their efforts. This could not be further from the truth."

The secret is to predict enough things. An anonymous reader points out this article from early 2000 citing Gartner analyst Al Hilwa's prediction that Linux is "probably going to kill SCO UnixWare," writing "As you can read, SCO's end was predicted near perfectly." I think "hinted at" is more accurate, since SCO is still alive and at least making a good show of kicking, but it's interesting to revisit a story about SCO which mentions that "industry observers thought that the company would be Linux's first victim," back when Project Monterey was a going concern.

A victory for discourteous boors everywhere. aeaas writes "The beauty queen Katy Johnson dropped her suit against Tucker Max over the posting of stories from their relationship on his website. This story was first brought up in the context that he was forced to take down stories relating to her without holding a hearing or notifying Max prior to it. This is unusual in American law."

A quarter mil is a lot of suffering, even in Canadian money. Skippy321 writes "Justified or not, Ghyslain Raza--better known as the Star Wars Kid--is suing the four students who posted his homemade video of himself doing acrobatic "sword-fighting stunts" on the Internet for $250,000. He claims that he has suffered harassment and persecution. It's also interesting how the article states that he quit high school due to this video, at only 15 years of age. Although things aren't so bad for him -- here's a petition for him to get a role in Episode III."

45 of 324 comments (clear)

  1. Note to self by John+Paul+Jones · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sell SCO short.

    --
    Feh.
    1. Re:Note to self by beacher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Second note to self: This is the forge that will make Linux either extremeley hard and brittle or strong and flexible with the ability to stay sharp. As much as I hate hearing SCO stories, I am glad that the threat is a light-weight that spews out so many lies that their story is hardly credible. Hopefully everyone will analyze what they are doing and some preventive measures can be put in place for tougher future challengers when IBM isn't taking up the defense.

      I really hate MCBride and SCO, but I think this is a good thing for us in the long run. Please remember that we all have to concentrate on making Linux just right for us. If other people/corporations appreciate Linux, then it will be on merit alone. Corporate backing is great and it makes other corporations look towards supporting hardware for Linux, but we're not selling to corporations, we're selling Linux to ourselves - and I think I'm my own worst customer.

      -B

  2. wow, cool by Trelane,+the+Squire · · Score: 3, Interesting
    3. The RIAA is choosing to devote their resources to target individuals, rather than devoting their resources to creating a feasible distribution method (see iTunes).
    It's nice to see this presented somewhere other than slashdot.

    but then, I don't get out much, so I don't know how prevalent this viewpont is ;)

  3. The Star Wars Kids Videos by pgrote · · Score: 5, Funny

    Here is the original and remix videos
    of the kid. Pretty funny stuff.

    I guess this will teach him to leave his tapes laying around. Good lesson to learn in case he actually gets out of puberty and starts taping his girlfriends.

    1. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by Chmarr · · Score: 3, Informative

      RTFA: Having them stolen from a locked school locker is not 'leaving them around'.

    2. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by Cyno01 · · Score: 3, Informative

      it wasn't a locker, it was an unlocked filing cabinet in the a/v room

      --
      "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
    3. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by clambake · · Score: 4, Funny

      RTFA: Having them stolen from a locked school locker is not 'leaving them around'.

      Depends on your definition of "leaving around"... Now help me jimmy this car door, I can see somone "left around" a CD player in thier front seat.

    4. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by secolactico · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeesh... ok, so he's acting like a doofus, but it's not like he did a Libby whatever... (you know... the girl whose "private" strip act for her boyfriend is all over the internet now).

      Kids do things far more embarrasing to their "friends" and usually don't even end in detention... such as pulling your pants down in public... or shave *one* eyebrow when you are passed out drunk... (must... repress... memory...).

      It's a pretty funny video, and cool in a geeky sort of way. He shouldn't feel demeaned for it. Plus he's fifteen, for god's sake. At that age, that is a way of making an ass out of yourself in a socially aceptable way.

      --
      No sig
    5. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by genka · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can see somone "left around" a CD player in thier front seat
      Yeah! And let sucker be served with a suit for sharing that CD from the player!

    6. Re:The Star Wars Kids Videos by IvyMike · · Score: 5, Funny

      but it's not like he did a Libby whatever... (you know... the girl whose "private" strip act for her boyfriend is all over the internet now).

      How did this get rated up without having a link?

  4. Ghyslain Raza by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it should be noted that even though embarrased, he actually wasnt/isnt angry at the people who posted it. simply; he has greedy parents...

    shame, i think they are doing more damage to him by teaching him to be greedy versus 'taking' the joke.

  5. Pay him! by sebi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can feel for that Star Wars kid. Being an outsider in school is hard enough when you are only mocked by those that you see every day. But suddenly being laughed at by a global audience must be hell. I haven't seen the video, so I can't comment on how stupid he looks on it, but that is beside the point. He clearly did not intend it to be seen by anyone. High school bullying is good fun, until one of the victims decides to shoot some classmates. Then it is newsworthy. When they drop out, or even kill themselves then nobody cares. This case can send the right message if you ask me (which you really shouldn't)

    --
    Hank! White!
    1. Re:Pay him! by fermion · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I agree that being an outsider is high school is hard, and being mocked is hard, but i think what this kid needs is counseling. Dropping out of school for this is a bit much.

      I guess what i really feel bad about is that he has to go to a substandard school where the kids don't think the movie was cool. Any real geek knows that the clip is cool, and would respect it. In my public high school, I would have had any number of people coming up to me telling me how cool it was. I would have had teachers coming up to me telling me how impressive it was. Sure he looks stupid, but he is high school. He is supposed to look stupid.

      As far as feeling sorry for him, and thinking he should get money, I just can't. If a crime has been committed, then arrest the people who did it. If he doesn't want the clip out, send cease and desist orders. Otherwise let it go. Yesterday he was just a kid, now he is a celebrity.

      The fact is there are kids with real problems out there. Kids who don't get enough food. Kids who change clothes before getting on the bus to go home so they don't get beat up for looking like a dork. Kids who ride the bus for over an hour to get a good education. This incident just seems like a good lesson that if you film yourself, then it might get out. Just ask Pamela Anderson.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    2. Re:Pay him! by benjamindees · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Look, I just downloaded the video and I don't think he looks stupid at all. It's obvious that he spent a little time working out the choreography of his performance and that's commendable considering it's something he just did for fun.

      The people who spent the time to add sound and video effects obviously felt his work was worth adding to, otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

      I'll admit, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, but that shouldn't make it embarrassing for him. Lots of people make a good living doing seemingly foolish things. Lots of people did nerdy stuff like this in highschool just for the experience and that has turned out to benefit them later in life.

      I feel like an ass whenever I'm on camera mostly because I don't have the ability to entertain people. This kid seems to have attracted a large audience and a lot of attention. He should take that as a sign that he's doing something right.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    3. Re:Pay him! by sebi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'll admit, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, but that shouldn't make it embarrassing for him.

      The funniest thing I have seen in a long time was Steve Ballmer's demented dance act. I have no problem laughing at people who set themselves up for it, but when events are forced into the public my problems start. Jackass can be really funny, hidden camera style humour can't. There is a line that many people don't seem to respect--the border between public and private. Ultimately the kid should have been the one to decide, whether or not the video was to be seen by an audience. The four others took that decision out of his hands. This might not be a crime, but it should be. I don't know if the Canadian legal system recognises the right of ones own image, but if it does then Ghyslain Raza would have enough grounds for litigation even without resorting to psychiatry.

      --
      Hank! White!
    4. Re:Pay him! by pi_rules · · Score: 3, Funny

      I say we start making a list of stupid things that we've done.

      I submit: this mp3. Granted, I posted this as a one-off thing for a buddy so he'd get a laugh out of it and after such a postive response from him (and former coworkers) kept it online.

      If I had a video if the dumb-assed look on my face as I had a half Stevie Wonder half 'Timmmay!' (South Park) look to me it'd be even funnier.

      For a football game where the women played football and the men cheerleaded in high school I signed up. Twice, although the first was accidental. I got pressured by some friends who signed up to be part of the halftime show. We were all wrestlers, me being a lightweight so I was litterally -tossed- between groups for the show. Not safe, but a skinny guy going "gaaaahhaha!" through the air is hugely entertaining I guess.

      The next year I signed up and got some buddies to do it with me. We all dressed up in something stupid -- I picked a wrestling signlet. A small one... cut like briefs... in 40 degree weather... can you say "turtle effect"? I hadn't counted on that one. Shoulda brought an extra sock. Or two. I've never said "Oh shutup -- it's cold" so many times in a night in my life.

      I wore a 3 foot tall foam Guiness top had during a short stroll from my buddie's house to the beer store downtown in a decent sized town once. Somebody stuck their head out the window doing 25 to express their feelings with the word "Shithead" rather loudly. Not a fan of Guiness I guess.

      Ventured out onto my balcony once to watch a thunderstorm. Chilled ou there for about a half an hour reveling in how insignificant I really am in comparsion with the One that can make stuff like that happen on command. I go to open the slider door and realize how insignificant I really am as the door has locked itself behind me. With my keys inside. With my cellphone. Oh, and I'm on the 2nd story -- and it's still raining. A 20 foot fall into some mushy ground and 20 minutes of walking later I'm using somebody's phone (who thankfully I knew) to call maintence and get back into my apartment.

      Of course, standing around with a group of guys in high school chit chatting and interjecting, "yeah, I noticed that X has a huge friggen crank. Wouldn't have thought that" and then being informed that you completey misunderstood about 4 of the 6 words out of the last guys sentence really puts a crimp in our style. Hey, I'm not the smartest peanut in the turd. Try explaining -THAT- one off!

      Got on a mechanical bull once drunk... well, three times in a night. 'Nuff said there.

      My first jump out of a plane I was informed that me yelling "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!" can be heard 3500 feet below. I've probably watched 100 people dump so far and I've never heard somebody yell loud enough to hear them. I think I got a record there.

      Hopefully the 'Star Wars Kid', if he's reading this, doesn't feel so bad now. Personally, if he had developed a little more flexibility in his legs he coulda looked a whole lot cooler in some of those shots.

    5. Re:Pay him! by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I guess the Star Wars Kid is working under MPAA/RIAA copyright infringement law.

      Actually, the case is a bit different. He's not upset about copyright infringement of something he wanted to publish, he's upset because he feels deeply embarrassed by it's publication against his will.

      It is reasonable that this would go beyond simple theft since in addition to owing him restitution for his lost physical property and for the commision of theft by taking, they also owe him for deliberatly and with malice holding him up to public ridicule.

      It really doesn't matter if he SHOULD be embarrassed or not, that was for him to decide. The invitation to make derisive comments about it shows that the 4 intended to bring public ridicule and the kid's reaction shows that they succeeded in causing that damage. For all of that, they are only seeking $62,500 each rather than $100,000 and jail time each.

      File sharing lacks theft by taking as well as malice. It is not a deliberate infliction of emotional pain. While the RIAA members SHOULD be deeply embarrassed by many of their published works as well, apparently they're not.

      The amount may or may not be fair (looks like the court will determine that), but it is certainly not as grossly unfair as the RIAA which asks for far more for far less.

  6. Now... what we really need to figure out how to do by miketang16 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Is how to ban the RIAA from accessing the Internet.

    --
    -------
    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
    -- George Orwell
  7. The real question by pcgamez · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...is if Slashdot has the balls to ban the RIAA.

    1. Re:The real question by Myuu · · Score: 3, Funny

      They wouldnt do that, remember /. is completely objective and neutral :)

      --

      forget it.
  8. Wouldn't the DMCA apply? by RedLeg · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "In response to their legal targeting of individual file-swappers, access from their known networks to this site has now been blocked. While it may still be possible for them to access Techfocus via address ranges which we're not aware of, they'll otherwise have to use non-RIAA and non-MPAA networks to view the site."

    So, this site's admin has put in place a technical measure to prevent or limit certain persons from accessing his site. Wouldn't attempts by those persons to circumvent that access control technology constitute a violation of the DMCA?

    Where's the FBI and a Federal Prosecutor when you need one?
  9. Re:Now... what we really need to figure out how to by Trelane,+the+Squire · · Score: 3, Interesting
    That is actually what the website supports...
    In a perfect world this wouldn't be an act we'd want to take - but we've had it with the RIAA and MPAA. Their contribution to the internet is stifling programming creativity (see the DMCA, etc), and they are acting in bad faith. As such, they can find their opposition information elsewhere. While we are sure that these actions are not going to stop the RIAA and MPAA from acting against individuals, we hope that other sites take a similar approach. If you are a website owner or content creator, drop us a note and we'll provide you with the file - it would be a powerful statement if webmasters around the net just shut them out.
  10. Star Wars Kid by Keebler71 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is the link to a "Star Wars Kid" Parody site. I didn't want to post it till I watched the videos for fear of slashdoting depriving me of nearly wetting myself it was so funny.

    --
    "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  11. He forgot to say thank you by DennisZeMenace · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ghyslain/Star-Wars-Kid forgot to say thank you for the $3250 he received from the Internet community. I wonder whether it's him or his parents pushing for the lawsuit...

    -DZM

    1. Re:He forgot to say thank you by Tyler+Eaves · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well considering he's currently in a mental hospital I think he got the short end of the stick personally.

      --
      TODO: Something witty here...
  12. For those wishing to block RIAA/MPAA: by bivaughn · · Score: 5, Informative

    12.150.191.0 - 12.150.191.255 | RECORDIN50-191 | RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOC OF AMERICA | RIAA | 1330 CONNECTICUT AVENUE NW SUITE 300 - WASHINGTON US | 2001-08-11 | reassignment | ARIN

    12.29.112.0 - 12.29.112.15 | MPLC-112-0 | Motion Picture Licensing Corp | MPLC | 5455 Centinela Ave. - LA - CA - 90066 - US | US | 1999-07-29 | reassignment | ARIN

    208.49.164.0 - 208.49.164.255 | GBX-REQ000000015136 | MPAA/Motion Picture Association | C00282131 | 15503 Venture Blvd - Encino - CA - 91436 - US | US | 2002-03-07 | reassignment | ARIN

    198.70.114.0 - 198.70.114.255 | NET-MPA-1 | Motion Picture Association | C00012562 | 15503 Ventura Boulevard - Encino - CA - 91436 - US | US | 1998-03-04 | reassignment | ARIN

    63.199.57.120 - 63.199.57.127 | SBCIS68048 | Motion Picture Assoc. | C00048959 | 15503 Ventura Boulevard - Encino - CA - 91436 - US | US | 1999-12-08 | reassignment | ARIN

    208.50.66.224 - 208.50.66.255 | GBX-REQ000000012662 | MPAA | C00194717 | 15503 Venture Blvd - Encino - CA - 91436 - US | US | 2001-06-26 | reassignment | ARIN

  13. Re:$250,000 is a lot of $ for kids to pay by Hnidan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At least it isn't $250,000,000 like it would be in one of your American courts.

    Here in Canada they're going to have a hard time triing to get any money for Psychological damages. Our judges like to see receipts.

  14. Re:Petition by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 3, Funny

    >> here's a petition for him to get a role in Episode III

    With this kid's luck, he'll get some sort of Jar-Jaresque character to play, and people will hate him too.

  15. Ghyslain in Episode III by LMariachi · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wouldn't that just compound his humiliation?

    1. Re:Ghyslain in Episode III by pixel_bc · · Score: 4, Funny

      > Wouldn't that just compound his humiliation?

      Only if Yoda whips his French ass.

      Otherwise, he be da man.

  16. heheh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    why don't we hook the star wars kid up with that
    blair whorenstein chick that sued to be sole
    valedictorian?

    people, people .. just take the lumps as they come.
    nobody promised you Anything

  17. What I'm interested in... by shr3k · · Score: 5, Funny
    Slashback tonight brings you more information on homemade railguns, the future history of SCO (seen from the past),

    Hey, speaking of which, I know a great place you can test out those railguns:
    355 South 520 West
    Suite 100
    Lindon, Utah 84042 USA
  18. Do they know something I don't? by bopo · · Score: 4, Funny

    "The connection was refused when attempting to contact techfocus.org"

    Either this is the result of a good slashdotting, or I've been brainwashed into an *IAA agent. Stand back, I don't know what I'll do next!!

    --
    "Understand you're having a little Jimmy Page trouble."
  19. She dropped her suit by N8w8 · · Score: 5, Funny
    The beauty queen Katy Johnson dropped her suit
    She dropped her suit! Did anyone take any pictures? Where are the pictures?
    1. Re:She dropped her suit by Gherald · · Score: 3, Funny

      Protected under the DMCA. She proved in court that her suit was an "effective method" for avoiding public scrutiny of her privates.

      --
      The unofficial /. digest
  20. Re:Greedy Star Wars Kid! by josh+crawley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He's not suing the people who bought him an Ipod, he's suing the people who held him up for global ridicule and ruined his life. If I beat the shit out of you, and someone else comes along and gives you a teddy bear to comfort you, does that mean you shouldn't take action against me?

  21. Bruce Perens's second cousin's roomate on SCO! by gatesh8r · · Score: 4, Funny
    "Yeah I think SCO is in it for the money and they'll go bankrupt." -- ONLY ON SLASHDOT!


    (Yes yes I know, it should of been "father's second cousin's roommate", just like in Spaceballs. The subject box isn't that big...)

    --
    Karma whorin' since 1999
  22. Slashdot? by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 3, Funny
    We slashdotted the Whitehouse? Whitehouse.gov right? I sure as hell hope it wasn't Whitehouse.com

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  23. Ahem! by Myuu · · Score: 3, Funny

    "they'll otherwise have to use non-RIAA and non-MPAA networks to view the site"

    And if they use a different provider to bypass my .htacess file blocking them, wouldn't that constitute a DMCA voilation by circumventing an access control?

    --

    forget it.
  24. Re:Petition by n9hmg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    people will hate him too
    That brings me to the point I wanted to make. Until he sued, I didn't think badly of him. He got access to a camera and wanted to see if his moves were as smooth as he imagined. Frankly, they weren't completely clumsy.
    The whole point of the story was that we've all done things that aren't "cool", and it's funny to see someone else acting silly. Now, the point is that he's a pussy who can't laugh at himself. Let the taunting begin.

  25. Re:Tucker Max by MalleusEBHC · · Score: 3, Funny

    Heh, only on Slashdot could a geek call out a guy who nailed Miss Vermont for his luck with the ladies.

  26. here is mine, but 66.252.129 is still missing by nyet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    is it a typo? their htaccess lists 66.252.128

    # Generated by iptables-save v1.2.8 on Thu Jul 24 18:52:32 2003
    *filter :INPUT ACCEPT [251238:18127669] :FORWARD ACCEPT [0:0] :OUTPUT ACCEPT [147443:28849496]
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 12.29.112.0/255.255.255.240 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 63.199.57.120/255.255.255.248 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 198.70.114.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.49.164.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.50.66.224/255.255.255.224 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 64.166.187.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 64.241.31.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 65.244.101.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 66.252.128.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 67.112.252.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 67.125.49.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 81.4.78.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 146.82.174.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.192.0.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.209.2.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.225.90.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.229.253.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 208.49.164.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 212.241.48.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    [0:0] -A INPUT -s 217.228.123.0/255.255.255.0 -j DROP
    COMMIT
    # Completed on Thu Jul 24 18:52:32 2003

  27. Re:Petition by NanoGator · · Score: 4, Funny

    "It's currently at 17,085 signatures. Can Slashdot get it to at least 20,000?"

    I think Slashdot rolled it back a bit. It says 404 now.

    --
    "Derp de derp."
  28. SWK kid took the wrong angle -- by toganet · · Score: 4, Funny

    He should have acted like he _intended_ to look like an idiot -- instead of being laughed AT, he could have been the next Chris Farley!

  29. 250 grand, my ass. by Squeamish+Ossifrage · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure I'm not the only slashdot reader who got picked on while going through the school system. And I'm sorry, as much as being picked on sucks, it doesn't suck $250,000 worth. That's like 20 years' worth of savings, depending on how one's employed.

    There's just no way that one embarrassing incident and the subsequent mockery is worth more than half a lifetime of hard work. Besides which, he's not even suing the people who actually mocked him. He's suing people who did something that may have induced the actual guilty parties to mock him. What's the accusation, contributory mockery?