Slashdot Mirror
New Directions In Music Tech At Siggraph
Cyrrin writes "The 2003 Siggraph conference is under way in San Diego, and the Emerging Technologies booth is showcasing several noteworthy projects in the field of human-computer interaction in music production. First, The Continuator system, from Sony Computer Science Laboratory, Paris which learns in real-time the style of a performing pianist, taking into account chord structures, rhythm, and melody, and then renders a musical performance in a similar style. Next is The Augmented Composer Project which uses real-time image processing to read the arrangement and orientation of symbolic cards on a table to allow a composer to assemble components of a musical phrase.
Finally, those wizards at the MIT Media Lab bring you Hyperscore, a visual composition program which is intended for childen to be able to easily create complex and fantastic music sequences. (And it's fun for adults too!) Hyperscore is part of the Toy Symphony project and is available for download by going to the Musictoys->Hyperscore->
Showcase page (Windows-only though)."
I see, so I guess because Sony cant sell CDs anymore now they want to make machines which learn from successful musicians and generate music I guess so they can fire the musician and sell the new machine product to consumers.
I guess musicians should prepare to be replaced by the machines.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
To anyone whose there:
Is there any good (*nix-based) competitors to iTunes? Any talk of the evil p2p??
--Bryan
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
...the electronic musician Paul Lansky already did this on his album Ride with a 14 minute piece entitled "Heavy Set". It's quite repetitive, though; it's literally just a piano with occasional ambience-esque swathes of melody every few moments. You can hear an excerpt of it.
Bash script for FP whores
...if that MIT punk from a couple of articles back pointed his scanner at that windows-only monstrosity.
Softimage rocks. XSI was used to make the animation and effects in movies like Toy Story (and its being used for making the model in upcoming Half Life 2).
And by the way, they used to be owned by Microsoft until they were sold off to competitor Avid. May that was one of Microsoft's Mistakes?
They did a bit on Hyperscore (and the Toy Symphony) on an episode of Scientific American Frontiers a few months back.
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1309/index.html
Moreso really by the notion that people can create ideas. When we realize that ideas exist outside of time, and get rid of these dumb laws, we can truly discover music. But it'll happen.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
what about audiopad??
that is the sickest thing i've ever seen.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
"I guess musicians should prepare to be replaced by the machines."
They've been doing that for years already. Haven't you been listening to any of today's hit songs?
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
> The Continuator system, from Sony Computer Science Laboratory, Paris which
> learns in real-time the style of a performing pianist, taking into account
> chord structures, rhythm, and melody, and then renders a musical performance in
> a similar style.
The Continuator, the latest product from Sony Computer Science Laboratory (a wholly-owned subsidiary of CyberDyne Heavy Industries, Inc.), was quoted as saying, "Say, that's a nice tune you've got there..." The demo's guest pianist was later found gruesomely slain in a back room of the exhibition hall.
"The Continuator system [...] which learns in real-time the style of a performing pianist [...]"
...
"[...] to allow a composer to assemble components of a musical phrase"
"[...] Hyperscore, a visual composition program which is intended for childen to be able to easily create complex and fantastic music sequences"
So, with all those coming fantastic tools, and the ones we already have, how come the music market is flooded with inane Britney Spear-ish crap, bad techno and shitty teenage bands?
I'm not a great fan of rock-whatever, but I notice a great portion of radio air-time is filled with oldies, and also new releases, from long-established bands that happen to play actual instruments with (supposedly) their talent and hard work as primary source of arrangements, musical phrases and fantastic music sequences. Maybe old-timer know something newer "artists" don't
Shouldn't the so-called "artists" learn to read and write scores first, lean to play an instrument, then work and work at their art to get better before using all the gimmicks? A gold-plated turd is still a turd, and I have the distinct feeling that many mediocre artists think electronic gadgetry will make them better, when really the gadgetry only does its best to presents the bad music better in the end.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
First, The Continuator system, from Sony Computer Science Laboratory, Paris which learns in real-time the style of a performing pianist, taking into account chord structures, rhythm, and melody, and then renders a musical performance in a similar style.
That is so cool! I can't wait for an album release by Deep Blue!
Gibson's MaGIC was the last music innovation that gave me goosebumps. I wonder if they'll showcase this technology at the show. Imagine plugging ethernet cable into a Les Paul!!! Through this technology, they're making it easier for musicians to jam together online regardless of physical location. There's soooo much more to this technology, so check out the link for details.
I have dabbled with Fruity Loops for a while, but my greatest complaint, while trying to create/remix music has been it's immense complexity.
True, it has an infinite number of features, and is supposed to be an all-in-one music studio, but as a novice at music, I found it extremely difficult to learn. I know it was designed for expert musicians in order to produce commercial-grade music, but I, for one am happy to know there's something out there, capable of producing "complex and fantastic" music without being fantastically complex and difficult to learn.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
The Continuator system, from Sony Computer Science Laboratory, Paris which learns in real-time the style of a performing pianist
Could this technology be adapted to allow this with other musical instruments?
--
It will be cute if they can imitate the humming of Glen Gould.
There is no way that these guys will get the idea that the performance of music is still something that requires an interpretation. Something which you cannot quantify, and changes with each different performance of a great player. It depends on the players response to the current air pressure, sonic characteristics of a venue, temp of instrument, audience, the amount of rosin on bow at the time, the touch character of a certian piano. All the wonderfull things that the player has a skill to respond to. It especially depends on the ability of the performer to lead the audience and the wonderfull give and take that has been lost to recordings. Musicianship is not a product it is a real living breathing art that thank God cannot be programmed.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
this is pretty OT here, but here goes:
If you find FruityLoops overwhelmingly complex, never ever try Cubase or, worse yet, Logic Audio.
I Find Fruityloops to be very easy to understand in fact, so it's what I use all the time. It's not quite professional grade just yet though, but it's getting there rapidly. I have yet to come up with an idea that I find myself unable to execute in fruityloops. Even crazy stuff like seamless fading between triplets and regular 4/4 can be done quite easily, and still it's more like a music toy than a professional production tool.
--- Life is funny.
entertainers (Boy bands, britney, etc...) with musicians.
And don't confuse them with Rap artist, who are the modern day poets. really, its more like prose.
Listen to EmmnEmm, he writes some very clever lyrics.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The March 2003 issue of Discover Magazine had a good article on music and swarm behavior. If you think hyperscore, etc. is neat, check this out!
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -Douglas Adams, THHGTTG
Yeah, a certain segment of geekdom is just jizzing at the thought of the "singularity" when computers rule. Robotic foosball and dancing partners anyone? Can't we get a middle ground between mainstream and geekstream?
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Having been reduced to a roving band of minstrels, Metallica is now forced to compete with mechanical musicians which people have downloaded from the internet and printed in 3D.
This side up.
In an outrage by computer enthusiasts, today the RIAA supeonaed 70 8 year olds for reproducing other music they have heard off the radio. The RIAA was not available for comment, as they were on the phone with their IT department making sure the website doesnt get hacked during this annoucement.
more fake news at 11
Who would own the copyright to such a composition?
Remember that Jewel chick who sung folksy songs and lived in a van in Alaska? When did she become YABC(yet another brittney clone) singing pop music and dressing like a tramp?
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
"Moreso really by the notion that people can create ideas. When we realize that ideas exist outside of time, and get rid of these dumb laws, we can truly discover music. But it'll happen."
Really? Were exactly outside of time did "Rhapsody in Blue" exist. Or Monet's "Les Barques, Regates a Argenteuil"? How about Van Gogh's " Wheatfield with Crows". And more important, why didn't you come up with any of the above? After all they're not created, but exist in some nebulous "out of time". Just waiting for you to cherry-pick them, and give them to those of us who apparently don't have your gift of "out of time" picking.
Dear HanzoSan:
What the hell is wrong with you? I don't read Slashdot that often, but I've come to recognize your posts as insipid, misinformed, and generally unworthy of the bandwidth they conusme that could otherwise be put to more noble uses, such as downloading the latest "game" that the nice folks at Orbitz's marketing department pop in my face about seventeen times a day.
Seriously, dude. Your constant Socialist babble, your misinformed and indiscriminate Microsoft-bashing/Linux zealotry and your generally incoherent ramblings are growing tiresome.
Take this post, for example. Are you completely out of your tree? Musicians aren't going anywhere, and the day that machines have enough creativity to equal human musical composition is the day we all become obsolete.
Dude, please go outside, learn a useable skill, and stop posting idiocy to Slashdot 50 times a day. We have enough small-time morons as it is; we don't need a gargantuan uber-shithead to lead them all.
Unless you're a troll. If that's the case, then congratulations. You're doin' great.
FruityLoops - the god of loop-based music software. After using it for five minutes I was in love. The X-Y controller is simply divine. I find Logic Platinum somewhat less complex than Cubase - and it has a nicer interface, too. However, good as these programs are, I still enjoy getting out some Eva Cassidy or some classical stuff and sitting down at the piano, playing, singing and improvising as I feel. My reasonably-expensive sound system just cannot compete with a grand piano. There is simply no way that a plastic peddle kit hooked up to a synth and a PC, or a PC full of loops will ever outclass the grand, or indeed any other instrument.
Best analogy I've come up with is an ocean with islands in it. These islands are ideas. You can of course find any island given enough time and patience, but it's easier to get a map from someone. But two different people can come up with the same map.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Did someone say something about nude erections? THAT'S SICK!!! (nude erections = new directions, HARDY HAR HAR)
Last I heard SIGGRAPH was a Graphics conference -- shouldn't these types of ideas be part of an AES (Audio Engineering Society) show?
Perhaps this is a symptom of how AES is getting less relevent in this area. It's a bit of a shame, actually.
For gods sakes,
No I do not want to see your demo!
Isn't Siggraph a graphics conference? Are they running out of things to invent or something?
Same thing happened with Sarah McLachlan (God only knows what her new album will sound like). Same thing (again) with Alisha Keyes. It's almost better if an artist is a talentless hack because that's the only way now to be spared chronic overexposure.
Why was Sony demo'ing this at SIGGRAPH? SIGGRAPH is supposed to be all about graphics (Special Interest Group on GRAPHics or something like that).
So, while this is cool, why would a music oriented product be shown at a computer graphics oriented exhibition?
I deal with so many ugly/cluttered interfaces at work, this is like a breath of fresh air.
Take a look at the tutorial to see the screenshots. The use of colors, shapes, textures, and sizes give feedback that is very intuitive.
To reply to KewlPC's question as to why this stuff should be at Siggraph - Hyperscore is all about intelligent use of graphics.
Kudos
Will MC Hawking be present?
Computers can't groove? Why not? Because of the "players [sic] response to current air pressure"? What does that mean anyway?
Taken individually, the items in your list that actually make sense [sonic characteristics of the venue, instrument temperature, amount of rosin on bow, "touch character"] can quite easily be measured and fed back into an appropriate alogorithm, allowing a computer to respond to those things.
The "audience" item is the one exception - it's very vague, but I guess you mean something like the audience's emotional response to the performance. I would bet that selecting certain key feedback elements (e.g., monitor ambient noise from crowd, facial recognition (at a stretch), perhaps heart rate monitors or even some sort of human-mediated system for this feedback channel) and feeding those to the appropriate parameters in the algorithm would do the job - e.g., play this section faster when the audience seems to be excited, or play louder when everyone seems to be falling asleep.
Who said "musicianship is a product"? No-one. It's not relevant, and you're straying from your own original point, which was the baseless assertion that computers can't groove.
I assert that musicianship *can* be programmed, or more precisely that algorithms and systems can and will be devised that generate musical performances that are satisfying to a human audience.
I predict that within fifty years "static" recordings will be very uncommon, replaced by algorithmic systems that generate music in real-time. Probably the most popular types will be hybrids that have, for example, a static vocal track/key melody line and a procedurally generated accompaniment. Listeners will have access to many parameters, allowing them to customize the piece to their prefences.
Real composers will adapt.
cam.
maybe
Can we start to refer to things as, works under wine/doesnt work under wine? What is this need windows thing, its winter here, brrrr.
today the RIAA supeonaed 70 8 year olds for reproducing other music they have heard off the radio.
Modulo some minor details (the NMPA, not the RIAA, manages musical works themselves), your joke isn't far from what has happened. Read Bright Tunes v. Harrisongs and weep.
Will I retire or break 10K?
If you like jazz, and you have ten dollars a month, try emusic.com, which provides its downloads in a DRM-free MP3 format.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Tell me about it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Toy Symphony got really bad reviews. Sure, the technology is cool, but when you come down to it, it's still just kids banging on instruments and computers.
I've heard one listenable piece created in Hyperscore, and that was by a kid who already knew how to compose music and worked around all the stuff in the program trying to compose for him.
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
For me its not thought/feeling, or the lyrics, its the arrangement and composing.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
If it was designed for expert musicians in order to produce commercial-grade music, it would cost more than $99.
If you find FruityLoops complex, you might want to try AudioMulch -this thing is designed to be easy to play and experiment with, perhaps a bit more experimental than FL though. I think the idea is to be more like a performable musical instrument than a studio production tool.
I agree, pop is (mostly) crap. The reason is that creative music, composed and performed flawlessly isn't as marketable to the teenage market, which is bursting with completely disposable income to be spent on CDs, concerts, etc. Just look at MTV, they started out bad enough, making the music video or the performer's navel/clothes/hummer as big or a bigger part of a songs success than the music. They've been driven to hardly even playing music videos by market pressure (read capitalist greed)
o ol /
The teenage age group is too ripe for the milking for pop music not to suck, so it plays on every impulse of the teen mind, whether it's good old fashioned sexuality, or Jack-ass, or some equally disgusting, base, worthless commodity for the teen drones to gorge on, mixed with advertising and content promoting "the next cool fashion trend" they will be milked to become part of.
You just have to accept that unless someone loves music more that profit, they're going to play and promote crap, to maximize their profits. That's an unfortunate side effect of capitalism. It's bad news for music lovers, but most people I know who really love music just have to work a little harder to dig for it. There are people who own clubs that book and promote real music, and there are media outlets for good music, it's just not as convenient as hooking up to the MTV/Pop radio tit for your daily dose of "culture"
In the mean time, listen to music you like and stick to your local public radio station, and "classic rock" stations.
For people interested in this whole scene, PBS had an excellent Frontline episode called "The Merchants of Cool" covering all of this a while back. Check out
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/c
and try to watch this show. I honestly have never seen a bad edition of Frontline. Sometimes I sit down to watch an episode and think why the f*ck would I care about *, and then after a few minutes, I realize that * is an important issue and I'm going to learn something interesting that has been covered up by the media, or the government, or commercial interests. It's a damn good show.
HyperScore comes with an interesting license:
If you use this software to create any compositions or musical/graphical materials, you hereby grant M.I.T. the nonexclusive right to use any such materials for any purpose, and to allow others to do the same, without any accounting to you.
I read this as "all music composed using these tools enters public domain".
I don't think this is a good thing. Philosophically I don't like licenses for tools to attempt control over what YOU make with these tools.
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Most of the substance of poetry is it's form, not it's literal meaning. Listen to the way the man structures things, and plays with language. Just because he can be ignorant dosn't mean he's stupid.
Have you seen, for example, Birth of a Nation? It basically created the fundamentals of Hollywood Structure, but guess who the hero is - the KKK. Just because the content of something is morally reprehnsible doesn't mean it's presentation is not genius art.
so if there is suddenly audio or interactivity, the graphics portion is irrelevant?
the SIGs aren't so inherently narrow. as computers become multimedia platforms, they encompass all senses.
furthermore, graphics/visualization and interface are inherently bound. you may be making music, but to use a GUI to make that music, there is a visual organization that is necessary, and that is very graphical by definition.
it's better to have one conference to get all the right people in one place than to have 3 conferences and not get the pollination.
m.
Who Cares?
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
The idea is that, according to much conventional wisdom, "computers can't create creative, expressionistic artwork." But what is a computer program other than the pure, embodied result of some human's creative expression? If then someone creates a program to generate possibly interesting sounds or animations, is the art-piece that sound or animation, or are those merely a byproduct of the true art in the program itself?
This is the sort of "angels on pinheads" question that can get the right group of people worked up into a tremendous debate :-)
In any case, I'm willing to accept that this kind of generative work can produce interesting results.
One of the most interesting things I've read about was a Perl script that took as input the archives of a mailing list and transformed it into a 10 minute musical piece, doing things like assigning different instruments to different people, having all the messages in a particular discussion thread be played in a certain note or key, etc. The net result was that you could very tangibly visualize the cadence of time, as the tempo of the music quickened or slowed, and certain threads would produce frantic bursts of noise while certain people's "voice" could be picked out here & there across the continuum.
Arguably, this was just another way of "visually" representing the dataset; maybe a retooled version of the script could have produced some kind of mosiac or tapestry, or (more prosaically, but maybe more tantalizingly) a simple graph or chart. From that point of view, what this program did with the data was no more interesting than what a program like Excel does with spreadsheet graphs. But then you start to appreciate just how creative that must be on some level, and then start to wonder about the possibilities of expressing boring old tabular data sonically rather than visually.
Would people have caught on to Enron's game sooner if their annual reports had been presented as a four part concerto in the key of D? Maybe... :-)
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
I've got to back up your praise of Frontline. It's excellent. At times it seems so incisive that I don't understand why other news agencies haven't picked up one of their stories and spun it to a wider audience. Check out "The Man Who Knew"
Counterpoint:
From the GUI, the new metaphors made it nearly impossible to grok. New revolutionary GUI's that do not map to logical concepts are not something I like to see!
It uses xmms to play the MP3's, but provides you with some of the library management stuff that XMMS fails at. i.e. If you have your whole music collection on your machine, you want a good way to browse it.