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Gov't Proposes Massive Homeless Tracking System
Chris Hoofnagle writes "The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development is proposing a massive system of tracking for homeless people and others who are served by shelters and care centers. The system will track people by their SSN, and will collect health (HIV, pregnancy) and mental information. Secret Service and national security agents can gain access to the database by just asking for it! EPIC has released a fact sheet on HMIS, and the public can comment on the guidelines until September 22, 2003, but no electronic comments are being accepted."
Couldn't this money be spent in a better way? Better shelters, lower income housing, etc. We don't need to track them. We need to help remotivate them, and get them back into society.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
and perhaps imprint on all those who don't resist a number.
Makes you wonder what Revelations the department of Home Security will find.
A. Rightmann
Now that guy on the corner wil be right about the government tracking him.
I mean, seriously, a lot of these people already wont go into treatment as it is, why give them one more reson not to.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
So, the bottom line here is if you want government benefits you have to give up some privacy in order to get them. Why don't we just ear-tag the homeless with RFID's and track their migration like an endangered species?
There are a significant portion of the hard-core homeless that will simply stay off-grid, that's why they're homeless in the first place, they decline to participate. Now, these people won't be able to stay anonymous and get fed or get medical care from the government. My suspicion is that the govt. knows this well and is anticipating a reduction in cost while being able to issue press releases about the decline in the numbers of homeless as they stop coming to the clinics and kitchens.
This is analogous to the reports in the declining unemployment rate reflected in lower numbers of people collecting unemployment insurance. It doesn't count the people that have given up, or have turned to the black/gray market for a living.
The best way to do is to be.
After all, why do you need rights if you don't even have a house?
I think they should extend this to people in condos, mobile homes, or with insufficient equity.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
I hope that no one is actually considering this in any sort of "real" sense. Besides, is homelessness a temporary or permanent thing? Would you be opening these accounts to track on every kid that ran away and stopped by a soup kitchen for some food, or only the "terminally homeless"? Also, how do they plan on tieing an individaul to an account? I sincerely doubt that the majority of homeless people are going to give government officials their truthful name or SSN. Maybe we can implant them with chips the same way zoologists track endangered species or farmers track cattle!
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Take it sleazy,
-The Shockmaster
And how long before they start tracking everyone in this way? Sure, it seems okay when you apply it to faceless masses of homeless people, but soon they'll be tracking all of us like this.
While I understand how Privacy Advocates might go to arms over this, I think there are benefits to the people who are tracked.
As I recall, there have been instances in the past where mentally handicapped have been confused by cops as criminals and shot or wrongly imprisoned. To be able to determine someone as mentally handicapped would be beneficial as the person may not him/herself be able to notify the officer he/she has a problem. Also, this would help hospitals treat patients they have never seen before, as it could assist them in identifying a mentally ill person that needs a specific form of medication.
But I guess you could say that the risks outweigh the benefits, and you are possibly correct.
Well, it's good to want things like this, but I don't think it will really happen. Homeless people tend to be trasients, which means they're going to be hard to track. Additionally, most don't use legal names (preferring assumed names and nicknames), and may invent social security numbers. Others will be illegal immigrants who won't appear in any other record.
Why can't we take the collective ingenuity that it would take to build a privacy invading system like this and bend it towards helping these people rather than tracking them? By helping them, there'd be fewer to track!
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
That's pretty tasteless. Most homeless people never aimed to be homeless, but they can't, realistically, get out of that condition, again. Try it sometime - give away your cash, credit cards, house, car, computer, phone, alarm clock... and see if you can get a steady job that pays you more than it costs to eat and replace your clothes as they wear out. It's not funny - it's tragic.
Web Design & Software Development
"Entities that provide services would collect their names, Social Security Numbers, dates of birth, race, gender, health status (including HIV, pregnancy, and domestic violence), veteran status, and income information."
This sounds way too invasive. It concerns me because once things like this are manditory for homeless people (it sounds like this system is moving that direction), then it will slowly be introduced to the masses.
Start with the outcasts of society as to make a quiet entrance. Then work your way up.
I don't like it.
The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development is proposing a massive system of tracking for homeless people and others
They're not going to let this go away. This is just ANOTHER back-door version of TIA. We're going to see it introduced, again and again, under various disguises until they get it implemented. You can expect to see tracking systems suggested for the homeless, pedophiles, drug dealers, spouse abusers, bail-jumpers, tax evaders, etc etc and so on and so on, (each one being some particular organizations "most wanted") until it's actually implemented. And like stone soup, once it's in place, it will be "upgraded" to include everything that anybody ever wanted.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
C'mon...the SSN thing alone is nuts. First off...if I went homeless, I'm doing it because I'm broke, destitute, and can't function in society (either by choice or forced) anymore. I'm NOT going to give out my SSN to be tracked. Take my student loans and debts and choke on them while I disappear in my meager existence. Second, what if I simply don't have one or don't remember it? THEN what do we do? Seriously? I could be an illegal alien, never got one...who knows.
And then the other issues. Like I want to stand in line and get my blood drawn for HIV tests and such? I just want food and shelter damnit.
What is this for? Who thought it was a good idea? And just WHAT is the good idea? Tracking? Tracking for what?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
" It's easy to talk about homeless people in online forums"
;)
I dunno, sounds kind of like making fun of someone in prison
This guy openly states that he thinks this is a good idea. How is this a troll?
Wait, I have the answer. It is against the party line here on Slashdot. Anyone who thinks tracking anything is obviously trolling.
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Yep, mod me troll, I am prepared. However, I am sick of this and am taking an open stand.
-- Fighting mediocrity one bad post at a time.
So, we can't track criminals, because of Constitutional rights, but homeless people are way too dangerous to let loose. I'd rather have some guy sleeping in a box in my yard than know my next door neighbor is a sex offender, but that's just me.
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Lousy rotten karmic retribution.
> ...that's why they're homeless in the first place, they decline to participate. Now, these people won't be able to stay anonymous
> and get fed or get medical care from the government.
I think the question is being looked at wrong. These "benefits" are not free. Rather, they are at the expense of others. So what you describe here are people who willingly put themselves on the street and demand a right to other people's labour. Rather than asking if they should be anonymous in their ability to be a willing freeloader of the system as described above, perhaps the question should be if they have a right to actively seek a lifestyle at the expense of others rather than taking the difficult moral high-ground of taking responsibility for their own lives.
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
In the past the Libertarian Party has had somethign called "operation homeless" (at least, that's what I recall) that asked homeless people the questions from the world's smallest political quiz.
They were overwhelmingly libertarian. The party marketed this by saying that the homeless know that the government is holding them back.
I believe (and I happen to be an employee of the party in some capacity, so keep that in mind) that this was the wrong conclusion. The real reason is that the homeless don't like to be entangled, don't like to make agreements, and really just want to be left alone with no responsibility, no registration, no contractural obligations.) There is so much financial help that one can get in the form of welfare, food stamps, et cetera...and they choose not to do it, sometimes it is pride, but often it's this amazing resistance to being registered (and i should also think dependent on one entity.)
Being homeless is the ultimate form of freedom (though the quality of life leave much to be desired.) I dunno if homeless in other countries are like this, but this often appears to be the case here. Nothing better than making your living "anonymously."
First we have RFID tags on food because we are afraid Saddam might steal our bananas. Now this?!
/.'ers caffeine addictions!
Why don't we just throw tracking collars on them while we're at it and see how they progress through nature "undisturbed"...
The sad part is that I'm sure that this kind of thing will be paid for through tax payers' dollars... If we have money to blow, why not blow it on something more useful.... Like supporting
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Yes we do need to track them.
Fine, but now I want to track you.
Why? Because you fit in some economic group I don't really like. I think all of you need armbands too.
We're tired of getting all those fake, inflated numbers of how many there are. Knowing how many homeless are really out there is a vital statistic.
Here's an idea -
Go take a walk in the city tonight. It won't kill you. There are lots of homeless. All you need to know is that there are a bunch of people starving in your backyard.
If you really care about the numbers, I bet the census bureau could help you come up with something.
The bullshit about this has gone on too long. Let's have some real numbers.
Oh all right. In 2000 it was 280,527 people according to the census bureau, I'll let you search for it yourself if you don't belive me.
My father in law is homeless and it is his choice. He has family that would take him in, but he is unwilling to:
a) get a job
b) pay taxes
c) stop smoking pot
d) stay sober
Programs are not a solution for someone who does not want to be helped. He can't wait until he can start collecting SS checks that can help him sustain his "lifestyle." According to the SSA, he's scheduled to collect more benefits during the first year of eligibility than he has paid in taxes during his entire lifetime!
Free medical and mental help won't help someone who doesn't want to change.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
... or forearm.
Oh wait. That's been done.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
Homeless people in urban areas already shun shelters because they are so dangerous.
Basically shelters are the same kind of situation as jail, some really big strong individual or maybe a clique sort of claim it and basically extort people who show up and threaten violence and steal what little they have. It's like a jail with no walls. So with no walls, who the hell is gonna stay in jail?
Do you think a paranoid schitzophrenic is going to be more likely to a shelter if he thinks the government is tracking him?
This is kind of really intrusive system just gives homeless people another reason to avoid shelters.
the reaction from /.ers. If this were a new plan to track "normal people" then the mass of posters would be up in arms and screaming to kill it before it even gets past the brainstorming phase. As it is, it merely refers to lessor humans, those disgusting, lazy, dirty homeless creature sub-humans who are where they are because they either chose to be there or otherwise deserve their lot. You can make equally strong suggestions as to the benefit of tracking "normal people" as you can for the homeless. It is just somehow more acceptable if you are a defenseless loser homeless person rather than a superior "normal".
I was shocked at the number of posts that either say its cool or not much of a big deal. Obviously, it is because the target of such tracking is less than human and less deserving of privacy and the right to anonymity.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Excellent post.
Alot of homeless people are paranoid. Track them and feed their paranoia even more. Take away their ability to get aid without being tracked, and what are the alternatives? Theft, robbery, drug dealing, fraud, and other types of property crime.
So then where do they go? Jail.
I wager that the true cost of this program, both social and financial, far outweigh any benefits. As a tax payer, I protest this as an abuse of my money.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Not too seem cruel but why would we spend money on tracking the homeless if they are off the grid and non-taxpayers. I know of several private organizations that help the homeless and I see no reason to spend any taxpayer funds on such a worthless endeavor.
On a comical note do they need to reverify the inventory of bumsicles up North ever winter. Joking of course.
As you probably guessed I am a Republican.
Obviously you are a very insensitive ignorant jerk. IF you knew anything, you would realize that a good majority of the homeless are mentally ill in one way or another. IF you were intelligent you would know that such people often have a hard time abiding by social norms.
Also, IF you had any feelings of value, you would pity these people because most of the time they don't know what they are doing. Just because they don't always behave appropriately adn just because they don't have a place to sleep at night DOES NOT entitle the government to take away basic rights of citizenship.
On the note of mental illness, many homeless people are very paranoid and suffer from schizophrenia, which causes them to yell on the street as you so indelicately put it. This paranoia of being tracked would also prevent them from getting the help they need at shelters and from free medical care. So, the won't be able to get off the streets. If you would take the time to educate yourself about the homeless you might have known that.
Oh, perhaps you were joking....
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
In 1984, the government of Oceania did not care much about the Proles, and would have ignored the homeless as just more Proles. They only tracked party members. The neocons are worse than Big Brother. They want to track everybody! How are they going to track the homeless who frequently won't know their Social Security Number, if the even have one. Will they embed them with RFID chips?
Will they use bar code tattoos? Scary stuff!
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Big Brother already knows most of those things about you. What they're adding to the mix is the health information and the fact that you used services for the homeless.
The data they collect certainly will be suspect. Hey, if you're broke and living on the street, what ID would you have to be carrying? If that ID isn't really yours, what can they do: assess a fine you can't pay, or give you "three hots and a cot"? On the fringes of society, the government simply can't apply the same set of rules that so effectively control the working and middle classes. Freedom's just another word/for nothin' left to lose..."
I just said that some folks like to scam the system.
I have no problem with provision of treatment for people who want help, but I really believe that many folks take advantage of the system due to low accountability and the fallacy that substance abuse is entirely a medical problem.
e.g. It's not my fault.....I'm genetically predisposed to [alcoholism,cocaine,crack,other chemical] -
puhleeze - I have the apparent genetic tendency for alcoholism in my family. This is not an issue for me. I simply don't drink. Problem avoided.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Looks like everybody's missing the point here. What is the major roadblock for government when they want to trample on somebody? Their legal rights. Do they like this? No.
So, what they do is start by eroding the rights of a group nobody cares about.
(We all know by now surely that the so-called logical fallacy of the "thin end of the wedge" isn't a fallacy at all, it's just a description of a well-worn strategy that always works when your enemy is sufficiently complacent.)
Already, if this becomes law, the homeless will have virtually no right to privacy. And if the state wants to track you, and they think it will be difficult to get permission, all they will have to do is make you homeless. Easily done.
Eventually, when the homeless have altogether become "non-persons" in the eyes of the law, the next small step will be to extend this category of non-persons to include the unemployed. And it's even easier to make somebody unemployed.
It's anybody's guess where it will go from there.