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CS Master's Degrees - US vs. EU Programs?
Monty asks: "I'm currently exploring my options and I've been wondering, is it worthwhile to seek education overseas--specifically the EU? Edsgar Dijkstra was of the opinion, though controversial, that American and European CS programs were fundamentally different (see his later writings in the E.W. Dijkstra Archives). What makes the EU interesting, in that light, is that it seems to have more openly embraced things like functional programming. So, if I want to focus my study on something of a more functional nature, are schools in the EU a better choice? What are the implications of returning to North America for employment with a foreign degree? Do they have to be accredited as proof of validity or are they usually recognized by themselves here in the US?"
Of course it never comes down to someone from one school, vs someone from another, there is history, communications ability, interviewing skills etc.
so in that sense it doesn't matter where you get your degree, it is what you learn, and what you can show to an interviewer
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
If not for the degree at least to be more open to the world.
I have no opinion on EU computer science programs, however I know for a fact that many EU countries don't have the equivalent of the US Master's degree. For example, the French 'license' is often thought of as being the equivalent, but most US universities will not recognize it if you apply for a PhD.
As far as I know, most EU PhD are recognized in the US.
My 0.02$
I think a major portion of your concern is the ability to get a job in a different market after graduation. While I do not know about the advantages of the programs offered overseas, I do know of two things that will capture a potential employer's interest. A well known school (even if it isn't known for their CS degree), and what extra curricular projects you have been involved with.
For example, if you come back to the States with a Doctorate in Computer Science from Oxford University, and contributed heavily to the SATA, USB2, and Firewire code in the Linux Kernel, your interviewer will drool at the opportunity to have you working for them. On the other hand, if you come back with a Doctorate in Computer Science from St. Etienne Community College, and contributed heavily to gwine (with no disrespect to Sylvain Daubert or his work), your potential employer might be asking you where St. Etienne is, and what gwine is ("is that related to the Wine is not an emulator project?").
I haven't lost my mind!
It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
I was a student at a German university for a semester. I had received a BS from an American university and wanted to continue my education in Germany. Four universities accepted me (that was the easy part). However, three of them would only give me 2 year's credit for my 4-year degree, making me a Junior in college. The 4th university would only give me 3 semesters' credit, making me a Sophomore!
But that was the least of my problems. Once I got there, I was like a fish out of water. I thought my German was good, but it wasn't anywhere near good enough. I had an impossible time following the classes. Combined with a bunch of other personal problems (e.g. my landlady was a bitch!), I dropped out after a couple months.
One of the reasons why I got into all those universities so easily was because the idea of an American coming to Germany to study Comp Sci was unheard of, so of course they had to let me try.
Frankly, I don't think European universities are better than American universities for any of the computer fields. Sure, there are American universities that are worse than the average German university, but so what?
If you're going to study in Europe, don't do it because you think the schools are better, but that's just stupid. Do it because you want to study in Europe.
If I didn't already have family, friends, and own a house here, I'd look into leaving. It just seems to me that the U.S. is on a slippery slope downhill. I think whatever your political viewpoint is, it's all downhill...
But that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
1. As a hiring manager, unless you go to a school I've heard of, in an English-speaking country, I'm probably not going to think very highly of your degree. Honsetly, for most geek jobs, the cultural diversity factor you'll gain is rather irrelavent. If you end up doing some important work or publishing in major journals, then you might be OK.
2. From a pragmatic perspective, you're going to end up spending more money (tuition, exchange rates, visas, long distance, airfare) and at best get the same education you'd get here.
3. You need to consider what you're going to do with the degree. If you're shooting for a terminal MS (i.e., not going on to a PhD), then what you're basically doing is getting advanced job skills training -- IMHO, it's best to get that in the US so that you're on the same page as the rest of us.
If you're going to do a PhD, either in Europe or back here, then the argument is different... If you work with a prestegious research group or professor in Europe, and produce some results, then you may be more attractive to Doctoral programs in the US. Then again, unless you're shooting for a career in academe, you'll most likely get out faster if you do your MS and PhD at the same university in the US (where language and cultural bullshit won't be an issue).
Personally, I thank my lucky stars that I stuck it out and got an MS... I'm a much better engineer for the experience and it's gotten me more than one job. I tailored my graduate program in such a way that if I decided to continue on in a PhD program I'd be in good shape, but also such that if I bailed with an MS I'd still have a lot of useful content under my belt. I suggest that you do the same.
4. Another person suggested moving to Europe for good, given the job market here. That's not the choice I'd make, but it's a resaonable suggestion. If you think that you'll want to work in Europe or work at an international company doing business in Europe, then doing some graduate work over there, even if it's only for a semester or two, sounds like a great idea.
5. One last thing to consider is that two jobs after graduation, the school you went to, and even the type of degree you have (MSCSE, MSCS, MSCSEE, etc) doesn't really matter. The fact that you have an MS combined with your work experience will be what gets you the interview. If the MS is from a big-name CS department, that can't hurt either, but it won't be a deciding factor.
It's true that there is a lot more functional programming going on in Europe. But there is also plenty in the US. If you have an interest in a particular subject, find faculty who have published good, readable papers in the area, and then apply to the schools where those faculty work. I can tell you that CMU and Cornell have great typed functional programming groups (very European style, in fact), although CMU at least does not have a general CS masters program; you'd have to do a PhD. Several other schools like UPenn, Berkeley, and Harvey-Mudd are building strong programs in the same vein as well.
Good idea anyway - really, it can't be harder than a Chinese student following English, spoken in a Texas accent, right?
First of all you can't compair "US Programs" vs "Non-US Programs" in a general way. you have to look at specific departments at specific schools. If University X has a good program in what you are interested in start thinking about it.
But before you go remember these things, unless you go to an english speaking area most programs are in the local language. How well do you speek it? To take a masters level class in Computer Science you will need to speek it quite well.
Costs, not just tuition, but also things like airfare back to the USA to visit people and so on.
Quility of Life, I have lived in the USA, England and now Israel, life is different, in some ways better in some ways worse but different, think about how it will affect your lifestyle.
Now if you decide that going outside the USA is for you, go for it, there are some very good universities in many places around the world (and some very bad ones)
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Using a foreign degree in North America could be a risky thing. I will derive anecdotal evidence from 'The National' which is a show aired by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. The article can be found here, and you'll have to find the phrase, "Designer Immigrants" within the article.
The evidence does not completely fit with your question, but it is definitely an eye opener.
The article talks about a man coming from England who has a degree from Middlesex University. In addition, this man has five accounting certificates. In short, he has a recognized skill. He speaks English and has a brother in Canada. So, he decided to move to Edmonton in search of a better life.
Upon arriving, he sends off 3,000 resumes for entry level accounting positions. Four years later, not a single job offer for a permanent position. Why? Because his foreign degree and skills were not recognized.
A direct quote from the article, "Doctors, engineers and other people are facing the same problem. So, I mean, what's the point of increasing the point level and either of them have to have a PhD. What do they want PhD to come here and clean the toilet or deliver the pizza or run the mini-cab or something like that?"
Another quote that's interesting, "One study of skilled immigrant incomes shows that a foreign education is valued at only half of what a Canadian education nets on the job market. Foreign work experience is valued by Canadian employers at approximately zero....My analysis has shown that it is getting more severe over time. That immigrant skills are being discounted today more heavily than they were in the past."
This doesn't completely answer your question as the evidence presented deals with immigrants. Nevertheless, it does show that foreign degrees are not viewed equally and are deeply discounted by employers in North America.
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
Hm. Getting offtopic here, but I rather dislike it when people blame the tool they can't use.
Here's what Paul Graham (yes, of Bayesian filtering fame) has to say about functional programming. There is an amusingly appropriate quote: In business, there is nothing more valuable than a technical advantage your competitors don't understand.
Alright, stretching to get back on topic, I'll assert this: To a programmer, knowing functional programming is about as useful as reading literature, analyzing politics, studying science, or traveling abroad.
Take that as you will.
--
Dum de dum.
Freedom is not the license to do what we like, it is the power to do what we ought.
I've seen a lot of comments which are mainly outdated and ill informed.
... and 3 for engineering and some medicin studies). The candidatures are not really accepted as a final degree, but a way to the licenses (hardly anybody stopped studying after a candidature). These are the broad lines.
First off, indeed, some European countries did not have a Anglo-Saxon Ms/Bs system in the past. I believe some countries adherred to a more German system, where you had the 'candidatures' (after 2 years) and the 'licenses' (after 2 or 3 years; 2 for 'normal' studies, e.g. history, archeology,
One of the formost problems with this was the diversity of the degrees. You typically had 'universities' and 'high schools (=/= american high-schools). For some long term degrees (4/5 years) the degree of a high-school did not get accepted abroad (including some engineering degrees), while the university degrees were universally (pun) accepted.
Then there were the differences between countries... Over the last decade, countries started to simplify and reform their studies. If I remember correctly, Sweden had at some point over 100 different engineering degrees.
More recently (and which has been the cause for quite some protest), all the EU countries signed an agreement to take up the Master/Bachelor system (Bologna Accords). As far as I know, this system is currently being introduced (if you start now, you should be in this system) and is retro-active (if you graduated in the old system, you can call yourself Master).
Of course, there are still discussions going on (and I basically lost the thread by now) between lobbying groups (which are sometimes powerful and recruite off campus) that e.g. think that an engineer of a university should be an MSc while one from a high-school should be a 'simple' Master (and so on and so forth). [some weven wanted to have high-schools only deliver bachelor degrees while leaving masters to the universities]. I will not go into the ramafications of these discussions, it's enough to say that if some ppl had their way, it would be more chaos again.
I just hope the politicians get their act together and for once, take some rational decisions, once and for all making the higher education homogeneous. After all, if there would be an objective difference between degree X from school A and degree Y from university B, I assume recuiters would take up on this (as they already do now for some degrees that are offered on both universities and high-schools).
But in the discussion about degrees, all rationality seems to be gone out the window at some times... Some people seem to like protecting the education and degree with all kinds of laws, thus decoupling 'capabilities' from 'person' but linking 'capabilities' with 'degree/institution'.
As for your question, if you come to the EU for studies, pick a university with a good reputation. You can hardly miss. Another note that I want to add (from my limited experience with US degrees) is that the EU educations (also depending from institution to institution) put more weight on theory (mathematics).
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
One has to also take into account that prestigious universities will sometimes inflate student grades just to make themselves look good. *COUGH* Harvard *COUGH*. This article speaks for itself here.
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
I assess international qualifications for an Australian university, and we consider US qualifications to be about a year behind Aussie and western European quals (UK etc). The US education system is about on par with Hungary and Pakistan in the view of our assessors, but we consider UK and many Indian quals to be on par with our own.
The main factor in deciding the quality of a particular country's qualifications is not the curriculum, facilities, or anything along those lines. It's the quality of the students, determined mostly by whether students gain their place at university through academic merit, or by buying a place. In the US you mostly buy a place, so consequently the value of degrees from the US suffers.
I would advise anyone trying to choose between the US and Europe for a degree of any kind to go to an English university. They don't hand out testamurs from Oxford to any sub-literate with a fat wallet.
Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling
Quick question: how are Canadian universities seen? Canadian education system is sometimes similar but, at the same time, remarkably different from the American counterpart...
[Gets big 'C' book from shelf...]
Canada is seen as high quality, on par with UK / Australia, and ahead of the US by a year or so. The high school diplomas / matriculation certificates are highly regarded also. Further, the French and English institutions are considered on par with each other. Canada would be a good choice for postgraduate study.
Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling
having worked with some guys from Stanford, MIT and CMU, I can tell you people that many MIT graduates are dumb as hell (no flame), but will get a job anyway just because they are MIT graduates. How did they made it, I dont know. But your discussion about MIT being better than Univ-of-EU-Whatever is just plain stupid.
What have MIT done in the past 10 years in the field of, say, AI?? Functinal Languages [which I happen to hate]?
Why should someone from no-name-german-univ be worse than a guy that paid $xxxk just for a name?
my final question: are everyone with a XXX degree from high profile YYY university smart?
Granted I'm a bit different when it comes to interview people and making recommendations for hiring precisely because I don't have a degree. However, that being the case, when it comes to going over their credentials, there are a few things I look for.
First off, I look at what they did. Did they write a thesis? If so, what did they write about? Did they intern anywhere? What kind of projects did they work on? If I'm looking to have a Linux cluster put in, all the people who interned and highlight non-Linux, non-enterprise apps will be tossed.
Next part I look at is what is the breadth of their education. Most of the time we need people who can where multiple hats. Nice that you have a M.Sc. in CompSci, but you didn't minor in anything and you have no hobbies. Buh-bye.
Lastly I start to look over and see where they went to school. I look for schools known for their field of expertise. I'll prefer students who studied in a metropolitan area over a rural area primarily because of the levels of social interaction and exposure to new idea. I'll look at students from top-tier schools in the UK, metropolitan schools in the US, and Finnish universities. If my top candidates aren't any of those, I'll start seeing how long it takes me to find their school online. The one's that I can't easily find get tossed, and I read about the programs.
It may be arbitrary, but I have never found a programmer who can't be replaced, never found a tech we couldn't get rid of, and I need flexible people to change with my company, not those bound to either rote methods or sitting solely in front of a machine 16+ hours/day.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Thus a U.S. associates degree looks to me like the equivalent of a European bachelors degree, a Europen masters degree becomes the equivalent of the U.S. bachelors degree, and the European PhD like a U.S. PhD candidate. Three years is also too short to have a year abroad as a junior and then integrate these experiences in your senior year.
On the flip side, I haven't heard that it's necessary to teach basic algebra or spelling / grammar to college freshmen and sophmores in Europe like is often the case in the U.S.
Ok. Grousing aside, I highly recommend studying overseas as an undergraduate. If you're in U.S. goto Europe. If you're in Europe, goto Australia / New Zealand. As a graduate, choose the best program / advisor.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Since when do non community colleges and universities offer degrees in microsoft programs?
The University of Toronto also teaches Scheme to third year computer engineers, as part of a programming languages course. (It's basically a survey of several languages)
Beyond that, I don't think Scheme is used much at U of T.
I had a chance to speak to our head of HR at a company I previously worked at (in the US) that hired a lot of people overseas. Our company helped drug companies go through clinical trials in the US and sometimes overseas. I asked him about degrees from europe and he said they usually step them down compared to US degrees. So basically 4 years of college in Europe there was equal to 2 years in the US. I don't know if he was doing it out of ignorance or if it is standard practice so take it for what it's worth...
Does anyone have any information about Sweden? Chalmers comes to mind as being somewhat famous in the area....
Some of the smaller European countries have a lot more programs in English that do big countries like Germany. For example, here at TUDelft all of our MSc. programs are now taught in English instead of Dutch specifically so that foreign students can follow them.
Note that many of Europe's most prestigious universities are in small countries (think Uppsala, Leiden, some of the Irish ones, Helsinki, even (dare I say it) TU Delft).
Even in the UK, it varies widely...
But no "high school" awards degree's of any type in the UK - only universities do that.
Most universities subscribe to the 3years==Batchelor's degree (BSc / BEng)
+1year == Masters
Some also do 4 year masters in engineering subjects (where you don't get a BEng, you go straight to the MEng after 4 years).
The top UK universities (eg. Cambridge) use a totally different system altogether...
+++ BASELINE REALITY FAILURE+++ +++ PLEASE REBOOT UNIVERSE +++
Well, that depends on what you define as "functional programming". Programming languages, like political parties, have extremist sides. In politics it is usually the ultra left who are totally socialist and the ultra right who is totally individualist (although the Nazis and Sascists were pretty damn socialist too, with all the "All for one Nation" thing, but I digress).
Like politics, studying the extremes in programming languages makes you understand the center so much better. In programming languages the spectrum is defined by the amount of state that a language has. In assembly languages you have to manipulate every bit of state, in a functional language, there is none. They represent the two extremes here.
In procedural languages the end result is constructed by progressively making small changes to a state. In C the tate is basically an big array of words which closely mirror the computer's real model. In Java and other OO languages the state is more like a graph of more abstract objects.
In a pure functional language the end state is mostly constructed by simply specifiyng the state (recursively or non-recursively) in terms of simple compoenents and no commands to change it are allowed.
No real language (except to pure machine code on the one hand and theortical academic mini languages on the other hand) are totally purely stateful or stateless. Haskell and SML must make provision for things which are inheritely statful such as changing the underlying filesystem. LISP is a strange amalgam of the two ways of thinking.
ALL procedural languages have an expression based sublanguage where you state things ina stateless way. Let me illustrate using good old C:
x =(y+5)-7;
And in Python:
x = left( [1,2,3,4], 2 )
Those things after the x= part are FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMS. This is inheritely less efficient than buggering around with the registers yourself but geuss what? It does not matter. computers follow a 95/5 rule where the machine spends 95% of its time in 5% of the code (probably worse). Also, modern machines are spending 99% of their time waiting your you to move the mouse of for a network packet so the efficiency does not really matter.
Also, curiously, Python and Ruby and Perl are generally considered to be more expressive than C and its ilk. Why? Because the expression part of the language allows you to directly manipulate multi-valued things such as lists which C (and Java) patently does not. To put it differently, they are more functional than C.
Many ideas that are now slowly getting mainstreamish in procedural languages, such a generics in Java, Templates in C, higher-order functions in Python and inner classes in Jave came out of the functional programming language research community. So maybe they don't exactly produce what you would call usable tools but they have been in the past and will be in the future an extremely rich source of ideas and inspiration for all the nuts and bolts tools out there in the field.
Not only are functional languages used in a small or large way inside all the procedural languages you love, they are by far the most used programming languages in the world. Why? Because Excel is a functional language. So is the SQL query language to a large extent. You simply state the relations of the things what you want and you get it.
What people want from their tools is simple.
They want to have a list of numbers or a table of names and add and sort and look at them WITHOUT specifying all the little intermediate steps to get the results. That is the computers problem.
And that is how it should be.
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
You should focus on HL2 instead.
how long until
I am Canadian, born, educated and working.
I was in engineering co-op at UW, worked with many foreign trained people.
I am now working on international development teams.
My view. (yes I know I can't spell)
Different focus in different countries. Thinking and approach is VERY different in some.
There are some very excellent foreigners. There are some terrible foreigners.
Typically I'd guess that the abilities are about the same, compared to some I think Canadian trained is a bit higher on theory, others a bit more on practicality.
You have to allow for adjustment time to North American standards, we're just different here.
~ is the unary negation operator, for example, although I dunno of you can even really call it an operator in ML. Wait a minute. Isn't the unary negation operator in c ~ also? I don't understand your point.
I don't work in any recruiting function, but I am an American that's worked in London for the last few years.... and from what I've seen, English tech graduates are pretty good, but very, very specialized. Folks from, say, Imperial, or UCL (University College of London) are good programmers, but the three-year degree system keeps people from being well-rounded... (even three years in maths from Oxford doesn't imply much significant post-A-level education in anything but maths...) From what I've seen, the 4-5 year American system provides more well-rounded people (who might not be as good at programming, but are probably more than 'sub-literate'). I've had one UK tech grad ask me who confukius was (confucious) -- I think you'd get a bit more understanding from a US grad. (I'm only talking about people from high standard universities from both sides of the pond -- the place I work doesn't have too much else).
there is no thing
what else could you want?
Assuming that's a serious post, no, the unary negation operator in C is -. The ~ operator is a "bit flip", whichever complement that is (darn, I can never remember which is which).
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
At Cambridge University in the UK, it's not uncommon for foreign students to come and visit for a year, at least in the science-side subjects. Those who spend their second year of studies here would typically join our own second-year students, IME, and while the background might be somewhat different, the overal standards seem to be comparable.
However, if anyone told me that four years of study at Cambridge was equal to just two years in the US, I'd laugh. Then I'd suggest that they look up what the Certificate of Advanced Study in Mathematics is. Then I'd challenge them to find me an Ivy League course that got anyone to that standard in four years, never mind two. :-) Your head of PR may be following standard practice, I don't know, but either way he's certainly ill-informed from my experience. Of course, it's quite possible that he was talking about a particular specialist area and not degrees in general, so maybe in his field he's got a a point.
Getting back to geekdom, the Computer Lab at Cambridge is very strong on functional programming. Robin Milner used to be the head of department, IIRC, and several of the other "big names" in the functional world are, or have been, based there. When I studied for a Diploma in CS there, the "Introduction to Functional Programming" course was (IMHO, YMMV) probably the most interesting and well-presented course I took. They still have an active research group working in that area.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
sorry, but I think that minorities have rights, too. Yes, Wyoming isn't that important, but on the other hand they have needs, too. Thus, a union of states ought to care for those needs, because otherwise you got an international community and not a nation state. Thus, the US senate is pretty okay for taking care of states' needs. But really, the election system gives agricultural states way too much importance. Kind of like the Prussian election system before WWI
However, if you want a job in America, go to an American university. There are many quality CS degree programs here. You can probably find one that matches your interests wothout going overseas. More importantly, US companies focus their recruiting on American campuses. If you already have several years working experience, then this might not matter too much... but if you have no work experience and need a "First Real Job in the Software Industry" then it makes a huge difference.
Waterloo introduces Scheme in Second year (about 1/4 of a course, though that may have changed since I took the course).