Slashdot Mirror
No Americans Need Apply
Victor G. Sommers writes "Daniel Soong, who lost his programming job to Indian offshore companies, is willing to relocate to India. 'It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore,' he says. 'But I was told, "Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here."' Indian officials have told him they don't hire Americans." An article in ComputerWorld talks about the possibility of getting more than you bargained for in outsourced code.
Well, duh... As a dutchman it's also not possible for me to relocate to the USA. Unless I prove that there's no way my skills can be found in the States.
That's common in many countries all around the world. As long as you aren't a citizien it is rather hard to get a job - not just because of possible prejudices but also simply because you are not allowed to!
The laws are probably similar to the US:
You can't immigrate to work unless you can prove that you can do a job that no one else in the country can do.
If it wasn't for this law, the US would be flooded (more so than now) with techs and doctors from all over asia.
alias uptime="echo '5:33pm up 22342352324 days, 6:28, 2124315623 users, load average: 2432.40, 12312.31, 123123.19'"
USA is also a sovereign country. Let's do the same. It's about time we stop issuing visas to people who steal native born Americans' jobs.
Before some slashbot calls me a racist, let me tell you that I don't care if you are a black, white, hindu, christian, jew or a muslim. If you're American, I've got nothing against you. But if you think you should be able to just waltz in and have a job or study at one of our universities, think again.
Americans can't move overseas and take jobs away from locals? What is this world coming to?
I mean we let people from all over come here and work. Ummmmm, except we don't.
You can get a tourist visa to visit most any place in the world. I went to China earlier this year. But those visas don't allow you to work.
Why is this even a story? It's the way things are.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
of the two is the malware threat. Most countries have labor restrictions (when i went to an improv festival in Toronto, Canadian officials wanted to be certain I wasn't there to make $25 or so performing somewhere some night). But the risk of getting a little extra code in your outsourced project is something about which execs ought to be aware.
Terrycloth Lobster
Seriously: typical wage for Indian IT graduate: $200/month. Equivalent for US graduate: 10--20 times more.
It is almost redundant to say that Indian firms won't be hiring many Americans.
Curiously, my little firm is now subcontracting for Indian firms, so perhaps the rules can be bent a little for genius Belgians. C'est genial!
Ceci n'est pas une signature
With the exception of places like the EU, it is not unusual for foreigners to just pack up and grab a job someplace else. I doubt people will be surprised by this, considering that what happened three years ago today reminded people to tighten Visa restrictions. Who knows, it may have been much easier five years ago, but today that's just the way it is. Here in Ireland there are immigrants who are qualified doctors, but because they aren't allowed to work here as anything other than a fast food counter-person, their skills are totally wasted. It's not discrimination, it's just the way the world works.
Yup...
They should let Americans work at Indian conveinence stores!
That way, no matter where it is in the world, it'll be fucking impossible to get a big gulp and a chilli dog.
Hidden malware in offshore products raises concerns
Story by Mark Willoughby
SEPTEMBER 11, 2003 ( COMPUTERWORLD ) - "You've go to be a little paranoid to survive in this business." -- Andrew S. Grove, chairman and founder, Intel Corp., ca. 1980
The extreme difficulty in discovering a back door hidden deep within a complex application, buried among numerous modules developed offshore in a global software marketplace, is forcing those assigned to protect sensitive national security information to take defensive actions.
The threat of hidden Trojan horses and back doors surfaced this summer when the governments of the U.S. and China announced plans to strengthen national security policies covering information processed by applications written in the global software marketplace. The private sector joined the fray with the August announcement of the File Signature Database, which will use hash values to protect software integrity from malicious additions (see story).
The National Security Agency's information assurance director, Daniel Wolf, in testimony before the House Select Committee on Homeland Security's cybersecurity subcommittee in July, called for a federal lab that would "find malicious software routines that are designed to morph and burrow into critical applications." Separately, the State Council of the People's Republic of China in August directed all government ministries to buy only Chinese software in the next upgrade cycle in an effort to encourage the development of local software companies but also to protect sensitive government data.
Mark Willoughby, CISSP, is a 20-year IT industry veteran and journalist with degrees in computer science and journalism. For the past seven years, he has tracked security and risk management start-ups and is a managing consultant at MessagingGroup, a Denver-based content development specialist.
Steps taken so far
The simmering global paranoia is rooted in the realization that no simple solution exists today, experts say. It is virtually impossible to find unauthorized malware hidden deep within a sophisticated multitiered application with data normalization, messaging middleware and other modules originating from labs in a half-dozen countries.
Robert Lentz, the U.S. Defense Department's director of information assurance, said in a written statement, "The DoD currently is studying several aspects of software assurance. The DoD has a current software acquisition policy. The group studying software assurance is looking to supplement that policy with strengthened mechanisms to increase our confidence in the security of both foreign and domestic software products."
Input, a Chantilly, Va.- based technology research firm, says federal government spending on IT products and services will grow 8.5% yearly from 2003 to 2008, from $45.4 billion to $68.2 billion. Approximately half of that spending will be in areas in which the government would like to see stronger information assurance.
Incidents of back doors compromising sensitive national security information may never be known. That's not so in the private sector.
"There have been a number of cases where software was found with intentionally planted back doors," said Shawn Hernan, team leader for vulnerability handling at the CERT Coordination Center at Carnegie Mellon University. "Most of these were for providing support, although no such support option was given to commercial customers. It's happened in both proprietary and open-sourced software."
Hernan said discovering hidden malware is one of the most difficult tasks facing an assurance investigator. CERT doesn't track vulnerabilities by country of origin, he added.
Software engineering processes are only now beginning to focus on providing traceability in security code. Traceability, which would allow a given line of code or a software module to be tracked back to the developer, is viewed as the Holy Grail in combating hidden malware. Traceability is also an effectiv
I need to go to the US to finish a contract I have with a US company. I only need to be there 3 days. Guess what, just for that, we need to fill in tons of paperwork to get a visa and the whole thing is likely going to cost more than anything else in the contract... What a good way to help the US companies/economy!
Unlike the US, India, being a developing nation, with a very large economy has always had a dirth of jobs. There are a few hundred people to fill up a single job vacancy. Thus, India has *never* felt the need for foreign employees.
However, I know for a fact that a large number of Americans/Europeans (and even Russians in defense companies) regularly work on contract basis. I had a Russian neighbor long back, working in India on a 2 year contract with a defense company.
So people, before you start flaming, ponder over the fact that a law for hiring outside employees doesn't exist because there hasn't ever been a need for it. Now with the outsourcing, it may not be too long before the government comes up with an H-1 like plan.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
OK, I had accepted the fact that H1B's killed the IT job market for Americans. Competition and all that. That's just fine. Shit happens. But if Americans can't work in India, then let's kick the damn H1B's out of this country. I had NO IDEA that Americans couldn't get an Indian job. If that really is true (although no real good source was cited), I say fuck 'em and give 'em the boot until India wants to open up it's doors to American workers.
Our company is getting ready to send someone over to India to head up some outsourcing. He's British, but that should not be any significant difference. I haven't heard of any barrier for foreigners working in India. Anyone care to cite some relevant Indian law, rather than a few words at the tail end of an article?
When it's Americans being forbidden to work in a foreign country, it's that country's right to do so.
But if it were the other way around, and Indian people coming to this country were suddenly forbidden to work here, imagine the uproar that would cause among Slashdotters!
Even if you are going to be wrong, at least be consistent!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I have to inject dull ol' reality into another 'The Indians Are Coming!' flap, but why exactly is it surprising that he can go to India on holiday and can't work there? Does he have a work visa for India? Are Indians allowed to work in the US with no visa?
I always figured the general pattern was that to work in country A, you need to be a citizen of country A or have a work permit issued by country A. Did this suddenly stop applying in the case of Americans wanting to work in India?
Other than that, well, it's a competitive marketplace. If other people are selling the same skills -- or what are percieved as the same skills -- cheaper, then he's got to change something.
Incidentally, I've known some terrible experiences with outsourcing to cheap countries and I think it's generally a false economy. But on the other hand, I think I'd rather have a disoriented and inexperienced Indian working for me than listen to this guy's whining.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
You don't want to work in India. If you want to get back at those H1 people by going to India to work, you're a fool. You can "steal" the jobs back from them in the US just as easily, all you have to do is work for a wage that you will find ridiculously low.
But what about the taxis?
However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS.
To which my immediate reply was, "Did you remember to include the right cover on your TPS report?" :-)
120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
the level of difficulty one has immigrating to the USA, even on the H1 visa program.
..don't panic
What I don't get from all theses articles/posts about India-stealing-jobs-from-US, is why they use the word stealing. All India is doing is improving its economy. India is not stealing any jobs, and the reason why US is outsourcing to India is simply because its cheaper. That's India's "strength" :people and lots of it. So what are Indian companies supposed to say when US companies ask them for outsourcing: Hey we can't take your jobs. We are really worreid about your economy but not ours.
"However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS."
Does life imitate are or what?! I never thought I'd actually see TPS reports, but now I expect my next boss will be named Lumberg...
wurst sig evr.
However, the SEI is introducing Team Process Software (TPS), which brings traceability of specific code modules to individual programmers, said Humphrey, a former IBM software engineering executive. Indian software companies and a few U.S. developers, notably Microsoft Corp., are aggressively implementing TPS.
The guys at Microsoft better make sure they put a cover on those TPS reports!
Here is a prime example of one of the main problems of free trade. Corporations are free to trade jobs off to some developing nation where wages are minimal but people are not allowed to move to where the jobs are. Perhaps someday we will negotiate trade agreements which guarantee a fair living standard for workers reguardless of where they live.
Get used to it. US workers cannot get jobs in Canada, Europe, Australia, etc. without first applying, and getting necessary work visas. To get a work visa, you must have an employer who has applied to get you in, and has demonstrated that there isn't local talent who could do the job you're being hired for.
Funny enough, that's pretty much the situation here (except for the illegal immigrants that is.) If you really want to work overseas, start applying for foreign citizenship/work permits.
The real question is if you cast your dollar vote for HP again or someone else this time. And even more importantly, if you researched the printer company's support locations before you bought that one.
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
May i recommed that you contact the nearest indian embassy and find out about the Employment Visa as found on the indian government webpage.
I am sure there is a provision. While living in india i have seen many foreigners, mostly russian working in the nuclear facilities at BARC. It shouldnt be more difficult than it is to receive work permit in the US.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
If you know how to spell, use proper English, and can recognize that two stories are duplicates, you could probably be the editor of some tech news blog.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Oh, and I'm sure that the unemployed masses have the funds to sue corporations for giving preference to H1s.
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
1) I used to work writing gambling software (ethically, I knew it was going to fold). There is a rather attractive woman who lives in Marin and is rather wealthy who owns/runs a set of gambling web sites. Her dev team is in India. She's young, beautiful and rich.
2) I use Macromedia Director extensively on a mac. I have since 1987. I even worked on Director for about 4 years at Macromedia. Director MX for the mac was ported by a company in India. IT SUCKS ASS. A vast majority of "details" that make software great are gone. It is now just "usable" and annoying. I will saddly admit that the windoes version of Director MX is much more usable than the mac version. Whomever ported it, just doesn't get it. What really sucks is that this crappy ass port is what I have to use every day. Yeah. Woo. shoot me.
3) I used to contract for McGraw Hill in Carlsbad. We took a major project that was about to fail, developed and released the 4 CD set on time and budget for McGraw-Hill. After I left, under financial pressure, one of my co workers told me that things were about to change. This biz guy from a software firm in India come in to talk to the biz guys at McGraw-Hill and states "my programmers can write 1000 lines of code in a hour and they are pennies on the dollar." WHAT MORON measures productivity in "lines of code per hour?" Obviously, the business guys who don't understand programming. Last I hard, a lot of Glencoe/McGraw-Hill's development moved offshore to India.
Leaves alot to think about.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
It's not like I'm shocked that there's now a heated debate about Indian labor law among the various IANAIndianLaborLs here -- that's why we're here, right? -- but you may want to wait for someone in possession of even a single real fact to come along before drawing a conclusion.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
from that website :
These are the requirements for an Employment Visa
EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
I'm imagining it
business as usual ...
utter silence ensues .....
Heck, I'm on an EU passport, and *I* don't have the right to work in the USA. This is perfectly normal practice worldwide - I'm not saying it's right, just commonplace.
So why does this bit of humour get a + insightfull moderation?
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
you can move jobs here or there, but the work force cannot follow.
perhaps we need a redefinition of free trade as a condition in which you can put lots of people out of work in one location and then not allow those people to move to where the jobs are so that we can destroy the middle class.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Look how bad the working conditions are there!
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
This situation did not come about until the institution of the H1-B and L-1 visa program. This program should be scrapped for the following reasons. 1.) Labor Shortage: The stated purpose of these programs was to fill a temporary shortage of american tech talent obviously this is no longer a shortage of American geeks to fill these jobs. 2.) Anti-Competitive: The way the H-1/L-1 visas are written the sponsored geek is can only be employed by the sponsoring corporation. If he/she is forbidden by law seek other employment employers do not have to compete for talented labor or worry about retention once these guys have been trained. This creates a type of indentured servitude and an artificially depreciated labor market. 3.) Lack Of Parity: There are no similar programs in the countries who are the major sources of imported labor. We should not open American labor markets while foriegn labor markets are protected. 4.) Tax Drain: The maximum time an H1/L1 visa holder can work in the US is 6 years. They have been assured by the Bush administration that they will still recieve Social Security benefits even though the current law says you must contribute for 10 years to be eligible.
You can get a working visa for India. I have a friend that works there. It's just like anywhere else in the world in that respect.
I expect this guy just got a tourist visa and turned up in India expecting to get employed, and the person told him he couldn't legally employ him, which would be true because he had the wrong type of visa.
Is there anywhere in the world where you can just turn up without a working visa and legally work? Not that I know.
I wish the Slashdot editors would just spend five minutes googling to check the validity of this type of thing before posting.
Disclaimers: I was born in India. However, my family moved to USA since I was 14. I consider myself American.
Fact #1: Americans (and others) can work in India
Fact #2: Lots of Americans (and others) do work in India
Fact #3: A Visitors visa is different from a Work visa (just like USA)
Fact #4: If you travel on visitors visa, you cannot change it to work visa unless you leave the country first. Basically you cannot transfer visas without changing your port of entry (guess what? just like the good ol' USA)
Fact #5: This guy traveled to India on a work visa and applied for a job
Fact #6: Following fact #4, he got denied a visa.
BTW, all these facts are responses to USA's visa policies. India has a repuation for treating citizen of outher countries the same way other countries treats it's citizens. For example, USA charges a fee for each applicant of a visa (may it be student, work or travel) to people from India. Guess what India does? They charge a fee to Americans who want a visa to India too. Nepal doesn't charge a fee for Indian citizens. So, India doesn't charge a fee to Nepalese citizens. So, that is it guys: tit-for-tat.
However, moving tech jobs offshore is bad, and so are H1B visas in todays economy. They were good during the boom days when we couldn't hire enough people.
now supporting:
cmdrTaco for president '04
michael for oval office intern summer '05
I think the real issue is the greed of corporations, and a global marketplace that is getting more and more competitive. If you've been to India, you'll realize, that they are now struggling with increasing salaries; eventually the cost savings won't be there, so these corporations will be moving on. Tomorrow you will be bashing Chinese or Romanians. The best we in North American can hope for is to create new markets, and technology. The world our parents grew up in is no more, now is a world of eternal vigilance to stay one step ahead of other countries. If workers in China, because of low salaries can outperform us in the cost of developing products, then we should be saying is it possible to develop machinery or automation technology to keep it as competitive, thus the skills and money get transferred instead to developing the machinery.
I sympathize with the Americans that lost their jobs and wish that India would freely open its borders to people who want to work there. That's more likely to benefit people from Bangladesh and Nepal, than the U.S., but you should all be welcome to live and work where you choose.
Unfortunately, for the forseeable future, three trends will continue in the U.S. (and Europe)
a) Emigration of jobs
b) Competition with immigrants for remaining jobs.
c) Lower pay scales and standards of living
Banning or allowing immigration will only change the emphasis between trends.
"Most of these were for providing support, ..."
Yeah; I usually do this. Any program more than a few dozen lines, and I start adding debugging hooks.
They're never "hidden", though. I always document them. Of course, I can't force users to read the documentation.
And I don't remove the debug hooks for a "release" version. When it's out at some customer's site and they call you asking what's wrong is when you REALLY need those hooks.
It's really handy to be able to be able to tell a user "Just add the following line to the config file, wait a bit, and tell me what it says."
I've worked on several projects where we added an HTTP interface, with the app listening on some port. All configurable, of course, but usually turned on by default. Then when a user called with a problem, if they are on the Net, we can ftp to that port, start typing GET commands, and learn about its state. This is a real back door, very easy to implement, and incredibly helpful when there are problems.
Of course, you do want to document them, so that the user can't accuse you of sneaking something in on them. And make sure there's a simple way to turn them on and off. If the app has a config file, a line like "HTTP-Port: N" does the job, with N=0 to disable the back door.
Then you can say "Well, I can't see what's wrong, because the HTTP port is turned off. Yes, I understand your security concerns. But I can't help you if your security won't let me talk to the program."
Usually this isn't much of a problem, since new users rarely notice that stuff, and leave the back door enabled. When their security folks discover it, it's really handy to be able to point to the fact that it's all documented in the manual and the sample config file. Then they say "Oh, yeah." turn it off, and don't bug you.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
When I was working in India, our company always used to have some Americans working in the company. Just as in the US, you need a work permit ( see this advice ). We also had quite a few non-citizens of Indian origin working in our company, who also needed work permits. Unlike H1B, your company doesn't need to prove that a person with your skills can't be hired locally.
The problem really is one of money. Why would anyone want to work in India for fraction of the money you can get anywhere else ?
Considering how easy movement of professions helps Indian S/W industries, I'm sure the govt. will be willing to introduce temporary work permits too if need be. Infact, they had mooted GATS guidelines on visas, work permits. I don't know the status now.
For those who don't know, India has a huge illigal immigrants problem. The immigrants are mostly from Bangladesh. In the 80's and 90's there was a very militant movement against illegal immigrants in the state of Assam. See this article.
Opposition to H1B in the US now is understandable. Infact, if INS is even now giving out H1B visas in this economy, it is absurd.
.
karma : former act as leading to inevitable results
There is a great book called The New Tolerance by Josh McDowell about this very subject. It's heavily religious but the principles apply here very well.
So true. That's why you see so many quotes from the Simpsons, Futurama, Monty Python, etc. Most moderators don't recognize humor unless it comes from a source "officially" known to be funny. Making up an original joke will just get you modded down.
Letting twelve year old semi-literate shut-ins moderate posts of people three times their age is just not such a hot idea.
Uhh...US EOE laws forbid discrimination on the basis of national origin. So it would be illegal discrimination here.
Who cares about the last part of the clip, everyone knows that it's a pain in the ass to get a job in another country, unless your an executive or you live in the EU. (My personal experience alone with this is endless.)
The point is the first part. And I don't want to collectively diss the /. population, but if you guys would read BusinessWeek, The Economist, etc., in addition to all your damn computer magazines, then you'd be enlightened already about how the H1 visa problem is growing so fast in the States.
There are countless stories at countless firms about people who've been forced to train their outsourced replacements. It is a really big problem in this country.
I really don't give a f*ck if you want to outsource a job to India. But all that bullsh*t with Tata is a gross exploitation of a labor-law loophole. Generally, the law states that you can't lay someone off and replace that exact position within "X" amount of time (it varies by State, I believe, here in Illinois it's 1 year). So companies get around it by creating whole new departments and positions for companies like Tata to come in and rape your office space, replacing you with an H1-er.
Start reading other magazines, and you guys might actually be motivated to care about this instead of giving supposedly righteous comments about how obvious it is that it's difficult to obtain work visas in other countries.
Focus on the important stuff. Like the BEGINNING of the clip.
"All techies should be forced to take at least 12 credits of business in college."
-SD
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/11/news/economy/visa
First few lines are:
Visas vs. jobs
While many U.S. tech workers hate the H-1B program, studies suggest its impact is limited.
September 11, 2003: 12:14 PM EDT
By Mark Gongloff, CNN/Money Staff Writer
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - A U.S. visa program that allows aliens to temporarily work in technology and other high-paying industries is often blamed for taking American jobs and pushing wages lower. But two recent studies suggest this program might not be as awful as some critics think.
Why go so far? Y'all live in a country that simply imposes crushing tariffs whenever the right lobby group gets involved...
"Free markets" my fanny...
In the second half of Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan series, a new law is enacted, the Trade Reform Act. The law is really simple, it allows the president to pick a country with unfair trade laws and mirror them. They want to inspect every car that arrives at the dock? Sure, we'll do the same. They won't hire americans to work at their code shops? Ok, we'll do the same. This of couse triggers two wars in the series, but the core concept of the law was pretty solid.
I am well aware of the economics of outsourcing to India, my previous employer spent at least 6 months being courted by a half dozen code shops in India. They were complete professionals and very flexible. The skillset was in place, the language skills were better than what we want to believe and the price advantage was good. *That* I can live with.
What it is bothering me is this statement that it is illegal for an american to work in India. I mean, the only thing they had to do was say suuuure, come work for us, but you will get an indian salary commesurate with your skills and experience, we cannot pay you a US salary just because you are an american. That would be fair for everyone involved.
Or somebody in the government should wake up and see all these american going out of work because their jobs are going overseas. This of course sounds horribly naive on my part, but what is going to happen with defense sensitive software development? Are we going to outsource it too?
Some kind of trade reform act would be a great way to wake up India, China and Japan about the real meaning of trade. They can't expect to continue flooding us with cheap products and labor and then taking their profits and spending them elsewhere.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Okay - so the point of H1B's is to provide workers for a growing economy when we can't train our own people fast enough, right? (No local talent).
So when there IS an abundance of local talent (evidenced by the posting volume of /. posts) why aren't H1B's sent home? I have no problem with international workers being here, if they are filling a need that can't be filled locally.
To give an example of the way I think the H1B system is getting worked, the last job I worked at was an Informix 4GL shop. If you don't know what this is, it's the most insanely brain-dead programming language ever made. No features, no objects, hell you can't even pass arrays to functions. So what does this company do? Hires chinese H1B's who don't really know anything, for pennies. These guys were working REALLY cheap (like $8/hr) and the company had no intention of hiring any Americans because they wouldn't work for $8/hr. They had some scam running where a few of the american employees did work that cheap "officially" but got kickbacks for supporting the H1B program. I came into this company from a merger, and left shortly thereafter.
My current company is outsourcing to an Indian development firm who supposedly has 30 employees assigned to us. Our entire dev team here in the US is like 5 people, and we're doing the lion's share of the work!
So my opinion of outsourced and H1B employees is rather low, although I'll be the first to admit that there are probably lots of great foreign computer folks out there too. I just haven't seen any :)
The philosophy of market fundamentalism--the mantra of Fox, Wired, Rush, Gilder, Friedman and every zealous conservative and libertarian pundit--is doing an excellent job of encouraging business to turn its back on US employees. We'll see much, much more job flight in the short term until the brakes are applied to this savage anti-social approach.
Plainly this is what happens when you shatter the social contract and replace it with an ideology of dog-eat-dog. When times are good, it's nice to be able to bark, "Hands off my bone!" Not so nice, is it, when times are bad... Then, living under dog ideology isn't all it's cracked up to be, and you may come to see that millions and millions of your fellow Americans have been given the same raw deal.
For America, reeling under the destructiveness of this philosophy, a reordering of priorities is necessary. Increasing shareholder wealth may be the highest goal of a company; but it should never be the highest goal of a nation.
Above all, as you see jobs go to India, or elsewhere, and worry that it might be yours next, remember whose advice and guidance led you to this low hour. Remember also who made historically high profits from your labor in the 1990s, but now pleads the inability to continue your employment. And ask yourself if you can afford to subscribe to the politics of plutocrats who don't care if you and your family sink or swim.
As far as I know, American companies, led by American managers, controlled by American dhareholders, are relocatting your jobs to places where they can have the same service for less money. Go complain with them. Or with your Congress. The Indian workers do not need nor care to become a citizen of your country. The jobs are being offered in India...
I also work with people from Tata, and they do employ American citizens, to fill much the same sort of job responsibilities that my firm does.
[
from Indian government Visa Guidelines:
These are the requirements for an Employment Visa
EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
I'd call you a troll but with so many people saying the same thing it must be an actual viewpoint a lot of dumbasses have.
Do you think a secretary or a security guard has the same mortgage payments you do? They have accepted their jobs pay X a month and have learned to live within their means.
Your job no longer commands the salary it once did. Deal with it. Don't whine about not being able to make mortgage payments, move to a smaller place! If your phone bill is too expensive, use the damn phone less!
There are plenty of unemployed Americans in the computer industry right now. Lets give the jobs to them first. It's only fair.
Any government that is more concerned about their citizen's well-being than about corporation's well-being will block non-citizens from working.
;)
Any government that is more concerned about corporation's well-being than about their citizen's well-being will allow companies to hire non-citizens to their heart's content.
I think that's pretty cut and dried. I am certain someone will correct me shortly.
I was working on a project a couple years ago where it was decided necessary to hire outside help. I provided the skillset requirements and let others handle the hiring. As a result we hired (temporarily) a fellow from Bangladesh, through a consultant organization.
I can't remember the particulars of his situation, but the place he worked for really had some strick rules. In order for him to work in the US, he needed someone to sponsor his visa (as others have suggested). He wanted a job here, permanently, but in order to do so had to have someone sponsor him through the process.
His family (a wife and a newborn) came over later on. I think it was a condition of his contract that he work several months away from them. I might have that wrong. But there was definitely something time related to the job, either he'd have to work for them for X number years or something simliar.
As I recall the contract fee was cheap, $25k or so over several months. So I can only imagine what he was actually paid. At any moment as well, I belive they could fire/let-him-go and without a visa he'd have to return to Bangladesh. What's more, a lot of the expenses related to the job he had to cover himself (apartment, transportation, travel, etc.).
Eventually I think he was considering moving to Canada because the immigration process would be faster (6 or 7 years!). But this was before the attacks on the World Trade Center so one can only imagine that it's even longer now.
I'm not saying I agree with the whole "ship everything out of the country cuz its cheaper" idea. But opposing H1Bs doesn't solve anything either. Ultimately we're all people who are trying to do the best for either ourselves or our families. Folks in other countries have just as much right to find work as we do. As others have suggested, I don't find it too surprising that they'd indicated no Americans could apply. When the consultant I worked with tried to find work elsewhere, as I recall, some places couldn't hire him because they weren't able to sponsor his visa (or didn't want to), one was a state (wisconsin) funded agency.
Mmmmm, sacred...
I would like to know. The US is losing its manufacturing jobs. Have you heard of any factory workers say they want to go work in china?
The living standards will probably make you flee in a week or a month. Workers do not have health insurance, the language is a big problem etc.
A while back, I read that a few well known Indian companies were looking for very experienced(8-10+ years) business managers who take charge of the software development units.
Many Indian companies are getting contracts but they are usually below 50 million $. The big contracts still go to Accenture, IBM etc.
These Indian companies were willing to pay 60,000 $(all inclusive) for these kinds of managers.
And still there is a shortage. This is because the software business there has taken off only in the last few years. Prior to that nobody did big business there so that meant that there were not many experienced people to manage large and complex projects.
People with that kind of experience earn atleast 150k in the US. So if you have the above skills, Indian companies would probably be interested in you. They have no need for pure coders. There are tons of them there. If you don't have any special skills to differentiate yourself, you're probably going to be run over.
Also, companies outsource because they can!
If there was a law against outsourcing, would companies do it.
In the same vein, if US companies could avoid paying tax, many would do so.
Don't expect companies to listen to you.
Outsourcing is done because its possible.
Business is tight. Wall Street is a wolf.
Everybody wants a piece of the pie.
Ask your representative in congress for answers.
Bush is on fire and its not good for my lungs.
The number of 'native' people here is confined to mostly people who have property right to an 'indian' reservation. The rest of us are either from somewhere else or of people decended from somewhere else within the last 200 years. There are very few people who can claim their only lineage from the original east coast Pre-US colonies. Immigrants have brought business ideas, culture, and intelligence. A vast array of our scientists that have developed military materiel are immigrants. We tolerate them, right?
Even in our economic downturn, we still have a rather small unemployment rate. Our economy has always been cyclical, and now is no different than any other time, other than the industries most strongly affected. On an upswing companies hire as many people as they can, if they have a need for them, and they trim back when they have spent in excess of what their workforce can deliver, based on economic times. This is normal. It sucks, but as long as we allow the severe swings that we see, it'll remain this way.
When someone lives here, (s)he buys goods and services locally. This is money that isn't leaked out to foreign companies. Even the immigrant that sends money home for family ends up spending a lot here, since the cost of living is so high. I'd want to see raw figures collected by someone without a bias one way or the other before I would revise that thought.
Not all immigrants remain, but many do. Many find a much better life here than they have in other parts of the world. They see the salaries of their peers, and ultimately want that salary, or more of that lifestyle. They get addicted to pay-per-view and pizza delivery and cheap transportation. They become part of 'us'. I won't say that they all do, for many who come from countries as economically comparable per capita as the U.S. don't assimilate, but they have no reason to, either. Those from poorer countries become Americans. Their original culture doesn't disappear, but it all gets thrown in.
It's not nearly as clear of an issue as people make it out to be.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
If you know how to spell, use proper English, and can recognize that two stories are duplicates, you could probably be the editor of some tech news blog.
Which blog would that be? Not Slashdot, we know that!
My fiance' is presently working in the U.S. on an H1-B Visa. A quick refresher:
i ng .jobs.market.in.the.US.
H1-B visas are only granted to persons with the equivalent of a 4-year Bachellor's degree. Part of the application process involves going through a degree equivalency comparison by an accredited lawyer. My fiance' has a Masters' in Computer Science.
H1-B visa holders have a minimum salary stipulation. I believe the last time I checked it was $35,000 US. My fiance is being paid the same salary as the person that held her position before her, which is substantially higher than minimum.
The position she was hired for was unfilled for some time as the company could not find someone with her required database/programming/java skills locally (we reside in a small midwestern community of ~150,000 population including neighboring villages and suburbs.)
The real culprit here is twofold:
1. The L-1 Visa. The L-1 has *substantially* lower pay requirements. These are the job-stealing visas.
2. Corporate greed and government inaction. CEO's just see their programming expense as a budget line item to be reduced, like finding a cheaper widget supplier. Government inaction is self-explanitory. They are closing the door too slowly.
H1-B's are typically attracting highly educated Western Europeans to the U.S. for a number of reasons. Salaries that are 1.5 to 2x higher than back home (not 5-8x as compared to India), A significant other in the states (grin) or a sense of adventure and desire to try the U.S. for a while. I find it baffling that in the wake of the articles regarding Teller's passing that we're questioning the H1-B situation. Post WWII, alot of our brainpower came from Western Europe. Highly skilled, highly educated persons who desire to become U.S. citizens and melt into the pot are what strengthens the U.S.
It.is.the.L-1.visa.that.is.killing.the.programm
PERIOD.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
Please listen to an Honest Indians defence I cannot believe that C I O could publish such a stupid article !!!! IT IS NOT ILLEGAL FOR EXPATS TO WORK IN INDIA ! How do I know this , Well we set up a company makin watches in collaboration with a jap company. The jap company being the majority shareholder sends two japanese managers. All the japanese company had to do was get a WORK PERMIT, Which believe me is a piece of cake compared to the shit we go through to get a h1b or even a student visa. All major US companies and mnc's who set up base in India have a number of managers who are actually expats. In fact the CEO odf Coke India etc. etc are US citizens. In fact articles in indian business magazines have pointed out that there is a recent trend even among Indian companies to hire expat managers. And if u think that they hire only coats, That also is not true. Many Indian software comanies also hire techies although they have to be *highly specialized* However if some of u nice unemployed people want to shift to India, Think of what you are going 2 put urself through. A TechWorker in India with all the qualifications of Daniel Soong may have to work for as low as 200-300$. Believe me thats what my friends here earn! All of u who think that bannin the h1b is the answer may be sadly mistaken. Outsourcing may be a more serious problem than H1B and also realize that artificially creating hurdles rarely solves problems. The companies who are outsorcin 2 India are the ones that are doing this out of desperation alias economic recession. Note that america could not really prevent a lot of manfacturing activities 2 be shifted to bases like China, Malaysia. Banning the h1b also will not prevent the long term ousourcing phenomena.
Any American can work in India provided they a) have a job there b) their employer is willing to sponsor their work visa. You can talk to any Indian consulate for this. The whole process takes a week or two with all the documentations available. Last time I went to B'lore (2001) I found many Ukranians and Russians there working for the software companies. If they can do it so can you. This sort of articles with a half assed research to find a scapegoat dont bode well in terms of your own philosophies. Remember, not a single Indian arrived in the USA unless an American company sponsored them to come and work here. I liked what the CEO of Infosys said once about all these jobs moving there .. "They came to save money and stayed for quality"
Frankly I think this is an unstoppable trend and in a global economy and in the "so called" free market, this is entirely expected. Also some mentalities matter as well.
No one gave a damn when the 3rd world countries were starving in the 60s and America and Canada were dumping wheat filled ships in the atlantic. So why should anyone care what happens to their workforce now ?
In a perfect world, there should be no Bushes
In this age's global economy, the reality is that the US economic model is growing beyond the US's borders. Multi-national corportations are shopping around for the best deal. Particularly when the US economy is struggling, many of these companies will define 'best' deal as the cheapest. Other posters have pointed out that you get what you pay for. Maybe eventually the companies that outsource will realize that their savings on paper are costing them more than they realize.
In the meantime, technical folks that lived large during the boom times have to realize that people offshore have also realized there's money to be made in technology. Their price is lower, so the jobs go offshore. Those of us here in the US have to either lower our prices or convince employers that we provide more value than the cheaper offshore workers.
In other news, blue-collar workers have been arguing for years that we need to close our borders to foreign products, or tarrif the hell out of them. Now, suddenly, white collar jobs are being lost as well & people are shouting "Close the borders!" "Get rid of the H1-B's!" "Save MY job!"
Sorry, dude. Thats the way it works. Change careers. Develop new skills. Start your own business that hires only 3+ generation Americans. But if you choose to drive a foreign car, or watch an off-shore made television, or insert example here of products built outside the US that were/are more expensive when built here, you're living a double-standard. It can't work both ways. Pick your economic system: protectionism or a free market.
Cab driver?
Don't get angry. Get justice. Join with us in the Slashdot community. Support outsourcing but stop the H-1B program. Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing".
We in the West often make the innocent but stupid mistake of extrapolating our experiences in the West to other societies. The morals of people in non-Western societies like India are radically different from the morals of people in the West. To us, allowing an H-1B worker to be employed in the United States of America (USA) but preventing an American worker from working in India is wrong and unfair. To the Indians, such a situation is fair. Radically different sense of right and wrong.
Don't get angry. Get justice. Join with us in the Slashdot community. Support outsourcing but stop the H-1B program. Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing". Petition the American government immediately to stop the H-1B program. Do not sit on your ass. Move it.
It seems to me that globalization is making Americans more wealthy to the tune of $500 billion a year.
A Trade Deficit means we continue to import more than we export, that is, spend more than we produce.
This is a cycle most of you are more familiar referring to as DEBT, in this case, foreign debt. The cycle is hard to stop once it gets rolling, and once foreign debtors no longer believe us credit-worthy, they can refuse us credit and cripple our economy.
Read this for a better understanding of the situation. Economists have been warning about this for years, and now that our core software industries are packing up for India, things look even more bleak. Considering how every government official in America has chosen to ignore this problem, including every president since Reagan, I can't see us addressing it in time to really help.
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.
However, I noted that Indian companies are building on these small projects, much the way that any start-up takes small steps before landing the "big" clients. In time, Indian workers will have significant knowledge of North American & European standards, procedures, and business cultures, as well as a proven track record. Then, Indian companies will be able to take on essentially any work that "developed" countries do.
My professor agreed, but said we could take comfort in that we would all be retired in 20 years. But I'll only be 49, and what about future generations? He said the answer was to climb to the top of the "skills" food chain. Bioinformatics and biotech were 2 of his examples.
So, that being said, what are our options, here in the so-called developed world? What are the next big skilled areas? Instead of fighting to keep jobs in our countries, what can we do to stake out competitive advantages? What can we learn to do before anyone else can jump in? How do we stay ahead of the curve?
And, perhaps more importantly, what options do people who just aren't university material have?
-- SYS 64738 --
In order to work in India, you need a work permit. Not knowing exactly the procedure for obtaining a work permit in India, I can only speculate that one will normally be issued only for jobs/diciplines for which there is no qualified native applicants.
That's the same way it works in the USA. In order for foreigners to get a work permit (a H1-B visa), the prospective employer must:
The H1-B visa is temporary (expires after 3 years, can be renewed for a grand total of 6 years). This is kind of unique - not many other countries have this restriction.
Finally, a H1-B visa is tied to a particular employer (which some other countries do, but not all), so the holder cannot change jobs without going through this process again.
Given these restrictions, only a small percentage of American companies (usually mid-size companies that otherwise have troubles finding qualified personel) are willing to sponsor H1-B visas for foreign workers.
In a country of ~250 million people, an influx of 150-200 thousand legal (H1-B) immigrant workers per year is nothing - indeed, a much lower percentage than other western countries (including my native Norway).
Of course, illegal immigration is much larger, and a different problem alltogether. Too bad some of the less intelligent elements of this society is unable to distinguish the (modest) number of legal immigrants from the (huge) number of illegal immigrants.
The process of getting a permanent residency ("green card") -- remember, the H1-B is only temporary -- is even harder, and many more steps are involved (including INS, the department of labor, and a handful of other agencies -- all of which are understaffed and overwhelmed).
I was personally on a H1-B visa for nearly the allowed 6 years -- it took me that long to apply for (and receive) a green card. I am in a field where there is still a lot of demand for labor, and I am from a country for which parts of the application/qualification process goes quicker than for most. (Yes, the processing time of one of the agencies involved in the serialized green card application process depends on where you are from).
Re: Outsourcing to India in general, I can only say: Tough. The USA is getting what it asked for - a more globalized economy. If the US gets easier access to foreign markets, then foreign countries get easier access to the US market as well. Indian-produced goods and services (whether managed by US companies or not) can enter the US market more freely, just like US goods and services have already entered other markets more freely.
The bad news for industrialized countries is that this will level the global playing field w.r.t. salaries, standards of living, etc. The good news for the developing word is the same. All the same, it means further concentration of power an money in the hands of large, multinational corporations, whether they be incorporated in the USA or elsewhere.
What's more lets shine a light on the crux of the matter. Economic downturns always bring heightened nationalism, immigrant bashing, and typically self-destructive policies on trade and immigration. Given the current political climate and the significance of today's date only heightens that sense of national pride. This, in my opinion, is a dangerous position to be in. This is the kind of climate that breeds "Brown Shirts".
I think the important distinction that must be drawn is the fundamental difference between H1B type workers and immigrants. In my opinion, an immigrant is someone actively pursuing citizenship and should be considered an "American". As the descendant of Scots, Irish, and French Canadians I've heard the stories of persecution and discrimination my great grandparents underwent during the Great Depression because they were "stealing" jobs from "real" Americans.
In my opinion, the hiring policy, this man ran in to is just plain wrong regardless of legality. Does this mean that the US should adopt a similar policy? I don't think so, I believe the outcome would not impart a favorable change on the state of the economy. If my company lost all its H1B's we would be in serious trouble. I'm pretty confident we could not fill the vacant jobs with "real" americans, even in today's job market. Of course, I could be wrong.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
I found through Google about Congress and Outsourcing revealed this interesting article on IndianExpress.com
Here is also a Petition site attempting to Abolish the H-1B program entirely: Zazona.com
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I am posting this from the Indian state of Bihar and
.
would like to bring a few facts to your notice.
Big IT is limited to a few cities like Banglore,
Hyderabad,Delhi,Pune,Bombay etc.Very miniscule portion
of the Indian population of 1 billion is involved in IT.
Perspective Indian IT exports 10 billion USD Microsoft sales 50 Billion USD
99% of IT wok done in India is outsourced work from
US,Europe,Japan etc.No original product development
or ground breaking software science here.
There is no major contribution from India to any
Open Source Software project.On the hardware front
India does not have a decent semiconductor manufacturing
facility.
The great "Call Center" story is turning sour.There is
40% rate of attrition.According to a recent article people
working at these centers develop physical/physiogical
problems.Nothing is great about being Sam with a "American accent"
at night and being Swaminathan during the day.Identity Crises
Education is pathetic.Original thinking is not promoted.
Learn by text books and vomit in exams.
Regarding the IITs in a population of 1 billion you can
statistically always find 10k people who are exceptionally
brilliant.The untainted/rigirous selection process ensures
that these people get selected into the IITs.India has not produced a
single Noble prize winner since Independence.Those Indians who have
won the Noble prize are settled and working out of India.If the Noble
is an benchmark for original thinking you can see where India stands
No development in basic sciences as all bright students go to IT.
Corruption in India extremely high and prevelant in all walks of life.
Bush and his colleagues would look like saints when compared to Indian politicians.
Pollution is high in cities and you can see squalor in most areas.BTW Bombay has the largest
slums in asia.
Because of its lowest "code monkey" cost India is today on everyone's
radar screen.When some other country takes that title India will
be forgotten just like a couple of years before.
All in all not a great place to be in.....
This really sucks.... BIG TIME. Indian programmers come over here and work for half our wages for big Phat cat companies under an H1A visa. Usually, they don't last long, so seek work for other companies, taking away OUR jobs.
I guess few people know that the Bush administration increased the H1A visa quota 5 times what it was before.
Indian's are buch better trained programmers then we could ever hope to be.
I lived in Mumbai and Goa for a period of time, and everywhere I go, I see huge ass billboards touting "Learn C++ Enroll today".
Indian's get subsidized scholerships to these special trade schools and "diploma mills". Americans have to pay FULL PRICE, usually involving about $5k.
How many Indian programmers are working at YOUR company?
While in India, I learned how this works. In Bangalore (Indian's answer to Silicon valley), American programmer houses started to spring up. Indian's just out of school would work there, getting "real world" experience. Only problem was keeping them. Most Indians would prefer to work and live in US, and they have a large network of American firms eager to snap them up. In most cases, American recruiters are in cahoots with these Indian programmer havens.
Jobs that open up in American companies are never even put on the USA job market. Indian recruiters get them first. Often these spaces are filled long before they would even be known over here.
So, if you're a programmer out of work, you have little chance of landing that ideal job.
This is MY experience with India, programmers, and the insane Bush administration claiming to do something about getting us jobs.
And now this? Americans can't even go to India looking for work? This really sucks.
Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing".
I've always found it curious that it is considered morally wrong to discriminate against someone based on their race, gender, or sexual preference, but perfectly fine based on their place of origin. In fact, there are entire government agencies in place whose sole purpose is to discriminate against non-citizens.
People don't exactly get to choose where they get born or grow up, you know.
(Yes, I am a foreigner in the US, and yes, I'm just a tad bitter.)
If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
Are you sure it's not because you're an incompetent hack?
Many people are sure - because their company hires a bunch of H1Bs, uses their higher-paid US workers to TRAIN them to do jobs equivalent to the US workers', then fires the US workers.
Happens all the time in Silicon Valley - both in big and small companies. Occasionally a large company (Sun was one) gets so blatant about it - dumping whole departments - that they get sued.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
You really didn't understand the article from the SBA website, did you? IAAE (I Am An Economist), and it boils down to this -- what can a foreigner do with a US dollar? The only thing that he or she can do is buy US-produced goods and services. When he or she does that, it increases demand for US production which stimulates the US economy and causes the GDP to rise.
Foreigners putting their dollars into dollar-denominated investments only puts off the problem. At some point, the foreigner must use the dollars to buy US-produced goods and services. Doing anything else means that US consumers have gotten a whole lot of real goods and services for the price of printing a bunch of green paper or transferring a few electrons.
A trade imbalance is not like your PERSONAL debt. It doesn't mean the same thing, so don't try to apply your intuition about personal debts to a trade deficit.
--Paul
Perhaps you can do the rest of us a favor and let us know where these mythical jobs you speak of are located?
:)
Central Valley, California.
I am currently a network admin in a win32/unix enviroment in the medical field ( techically, I am a systems analyst, but that's a bullshit title ). I know there are several non-profits in the area who need tech help and have reasonable budget ( in comparison to the work you'd be doing ). Further, I know of at least two dentists offices that have an immediate need for compentent computer people ( don't bother messaging me, I already recommened a few people ).
It's all about your presence. I have never been turned down for a job after I have interviewed. I treat people with respect and keep them informed as to what I am doing. My current boss is great, he always wants to know what I am doing and how.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) a citizen of a NAFTA country may work in a professional occupation in another NAFTA country if the applicant meet certain requirements.
American professionals may easily work in Canada, for example, and vice versa.Anybody want a peanut?
San Francisco...When he is lucky he gets a temporary job answering phones or testing video games, nothing that ever pays more than $10 an hour
c'mon, if this is the case, he's just slacking. i'm up in silicon valley every month or so, and i constantly see signs at fast food joints looking to hire at more than $10/hr.
In the 1700's and 1800's England forced India to import English railway equipment (engines, etc.) to boost the English "hi-tech" sector even though India was producing better machines locally. Whoa! How'd they do that? Well, ahem, anyhow, if Indians weren't inferior, they wouldn't have let Europeans invade in the first place! Yeah. Similarly it was Manifest Destiny that the palefaces eradicate the native Americans and get all the goodies. And of course there's the astronomically gargantuan evil of slavery, which England and it's I'm-independent-I'm-not-like-you-Daddy colony promoted, defended, participated in, and profited from to the max. Is this attitude barbaric and backward, or what? Sure -- but it's the colonial mindset. And the imperial mindset. And of course the Indians weren't allowed to import their railroad equipment into England.
:)
So now we have protectionism working the other way, and the world's supposed to be outraged.
Small wonder that American principles of freedom, justice, and democracy have great credence in the world, but the USA doesn't, simply because it caves in on those principles whenever it's expedient to do so.
Every culture has it's "we're better than everyone else, somehow" mythology -- Americans, Indians, Japanese, Swedes; big cultures, little cultures, liberals, conservatives, pagans, Christians, Jews, Moslems; we all think we're more divine than the next person -- and it's a yawning bore every time it comes up. Life's better when you stop trying to be right, and stop being a victim, and just appreciate it. (And if you agree with this post, then you're extra-special too!
Only in the U.S. will this be tolerated
You haven't seen bizarre immigration rules/enforcement until you've lived in Canada.
In Canada you can show up at the border without any documents and claim refugee status. Not only will you gain entry after filing out forms for about 45 minutes, but you will be legally allowed to work until your hearing.
Of course nobody bothers to even show up for the hearing since there is no deportation enforcement. At most you will receive a letter in the mail telling you that you must leave the country. Nobody will contact you to find out if you actually do leave the country.
Then there are the cases where the "refugee" decides to make a living via B&E, armed robbery, etc., despite being able to work legally. Even if they are caught, their lack of compliance to basic laws of society cannot be used against them in the hearing that they will not attend that produces results that nobody pays attention to.
I think the answer is a little bit of all of the above. In general, I am a proponent of the H1B program, but I do have some serious reservations. Most of the H1B's I work with are very intelligent people that would be difficult to replace even in the current job market. I believe the root of this problem is our educational system in the states, but thats a whole other debate.
I've been looking for a good Oracle DBA job for a while now and its been difficult. I'm not very happy where I am. In this situation, the H1B program definitely hinders my search, but I really don't think by all that much. Most people who oppose the H1B program talk about just this kind of scenario and their argument has merit. However, the biggest problem I have with the H1B program is the way some employers abuse the hell out of the process. My division has been undergoing constant layoffs for over two years and during this process our managment has really been treating us very poorly, but it pales in comparison to the way the H1B's are treated. More than a few have received veiled threats that they will do what they are asked or they could be laid off and promptly kicked out of the country. They've forced people in to very long hours, constantly cut benefits, in general become hostile. The consensus among most of the H1B's is to keep their mouth shut and do what is asked. It is in this regard that I think the system needs an overhaul. I do not, however, know the solution.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
1. Before you start beating up on Indians, remember that it's American managers that do the outsourcing, and the ones that benefit the most.
2. If the Tata company didn't hire him in US because he was American, he could (and should) take legal recourse.
3. You can work in India as an American. Thousands of other Americans do, even in high tech jobs. You need to :
a. Get a job in an Indian company. Like Intel
b. Apply for a 'business visa for employment at your local Indian embassy/consulate
And go.
The economy sucks, but that doesn't mean you put the blame on other people who like you are trying to work for a living.
I read constantly about stories like this, and the older thread about about how a secret memo shows that IBM are planning to move huge quantities of their best jobs out of the US and into India over the next few years.
The central issue for me that links these stories is not so much the relocation of manufacturing and productive jobs from the core of an empire to peripheral client states. This has happened before (Roman Empire, United Kingdom, and so on) and will happen again.
No, for me the real issue is one of freedom of movement for labour versus freedom of movement for capital. Because of their many advantages, corporations are "gaming" the international political system to produce labour arbitrage. They have lobbied hard for their right to move capital between countries at will. What we have now is globalization that serves corporations, not globalization that serves people.
This is the fundamental ideological underpinning of this discourse. Corporations and politicians have structured a political system that implicitly and irrevocably favours the movement of capital over labour. Why should this be so? Could it be different? These are questions that need to be addressed. Different political movements are examining them in different ways.
Meanwhile, for ordinary people who, for the most part, have no greater or more fundamental asset to offer than their labour, their options are a lot more restricted. US companies send jobs south into Mexico with minimal regulation because of NAFTA, but Mexican people are not equally free to move their bodies north into the US. This unequal treatment creates the exploitative arbitrage that the corporations milk for profits.
This also explains a fundamental difference between the USA, NAFTA, and the European Union project. I've noticed most Americans really don't "get" the EU because their expectations are constrained by NAFTA and the halting of the US expansion within North America.
At its core the EU project is very simple, but very powerful. It holds out the promise of regional improvement by granting freedom of access to a unified market for both capital and labour. As it expands, relentlessly it seems, it allows poorer countries to join, once they restructure their political, legal, and social systems to bring them into some degree of harmony with the EU consensus. In return for this social transformation, all the citizens of member countries can enjoy free and unfettered movement throughout all other EU countries (admittedly and annoyingly, several EU countries impose different temporary restrictions on some new member country citizens). In essence it's very similar to the freedom of movement that US citizens enjoy throughout all 50 States.
This is a powerful lure. For all the talk of "old Europe" and "new Europe", the former Soviet Bloc countries are not clamouring to create bilateral trade agreements with the US... they are fighting tooth and nail to join the EU, and so submit their trade relations with non-EU countries to the fiat of Brussels. This yearning for EU membership has produced and is producing massive social and political change across eastern Europe.
However, it seems that the US project has stalled at its current borders. I don't see the US engaged in a determined effort to expand south, to create a distributed American citizenship that would be a beacon for social progress and political aspirations throughout the Americas and the world. Immigration isn't any sort of answer: it's tedious, socially disruptive, and over-regulated. Try opening the floodgates, as the EU has done for its member countries, and within a few decades the improvements in both old and new member States will be enormous and unprecedented.
But that's a fantasy. People today in the poorer countries of Central America, so close to the US, nonetheless know explicitly that their relation to the US and the member States within can never be based on equality and access, but will instead be permanently structured as clientist an
Da Blog
I heard a discussion of agricultrual subsidies in the industrialized
countries, by Robert Reich last night on NPR. Stay with me, I'll get
to the point.
It is far cheaper to grow grain in developing countries than in the
industrialized countries. It is the best way for those countries to
make money. Yet they cannot afford to compete with the US, Europe and
Japan because of subsidies. Why are there subisidies? Because
agribusiness is politically powerful.
In all the discussion of offshoring that I've seen on slashdot, I've
never seen this point discussed. In fact, I haven't seen the point
raised anywhere. I'm definitely not in favor of ag subsidies, and I'm
probably against any subsidies. I just find it curious that the
subject of subsidized software development has not come up at all.
We've processed several software engineers through the H1-B program. Simply put, when you hire a really good software engineer and he tells you he has a collegue that is really good and is willing to relocate his family but needs an H1-B visa, it's all too tempting to go that route. The other option is to advertise and hope you get someone good.
There is a requirement to advertise the position in the US before you can get an H1-B but it doesn't really make a difference.
Now personally, I can't tell the difference between the people we've hired locally and those who've immigrated. They're all good people.
I'd rather have companies help immigrate good, hard working foreigners than have our government tell me I have to hire some slob just because he lives here.
I do agree than any company that exploits a 3rd world cheap labor force without following labor practices like we have here is guilty of a crime.
M
This is simply because the US doesn't have reciprocal work visa arrangements with anyone. As a British citizen, I can get work visas in many countries pretty easily, and others like me from those countries can do the same in the UK. This is in addition to the complete free movement of labour within the EU. So, while I can get an Australian work visa from the travel agents, I don't have a hope of getting a US one according to their rules.
Personally, I like The Economist's idea: free movement of labour between all countries of comparable wealth.
Anyone seen this yet?
_ impact/index.htm
In response to the pressure, and in light of a lack of job growth in the broader economy, House Democrats and Republicans have proposed a bill to repeal the H-1B program.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/11/news/economy/visa
--bratch
Beware of the Redittor who loans you a Sharpie.
Your little pro-Immigration rant was nice, but it should have been modded off topic. The topic here is that the US does nothing to protect it's workers, while India does. This is unfair.
The US needs to do something about this. I don't mind jobs moving to other countries, I also don't mind people from other countries coming here. I do mind countries taking advantage of our near-open borders, while not extending the same openess to us.
Concept A: H1-B people take jobs from Americans
While this is true, it is neither the fault of the H1-B foreigners who take the jobs nor the Americans who lose them. Most of the H1-B foreigners were educated an universities here in the US. Back at the beginning of the CS/IT boom, there weren't enough qualified people, so employers petitioned the government to expand visa programs so that they could hire the foreign students that were available in universities here. Once employees started leaving for start-ups employers realized that because of their visa restrictions, most H1-B employees would not or could not leave. So they petitioned Congress again to expand the program. They got what they wanted, and American workers are now paying the price.
Concept B: Outsourcing is taking jobs from Americans
While this is also true, did you expect something different? Corporations are there to make profits for their shareholders. If I tell a corporation that my company in India/China/Eastern Europe can complete the same work their in-house American IT department does for half the cost, no MBA-carrying CEO would ever turn me down. Even if I lied and it's only 2/3, that's reduced operating costs by millions or dollars, thus increasing the return for shareholders.
All of this happened decades ago in agriculture, 20-25 years ago in the textiles industry (remember the by clothes made in the USA campaigns??), 20 years to present in the manufacturing industries (auto, steel, toys, etc.), 5-10 years in semi-conductor and IC manufacturing, and 3-5 years in the call-center industry. Were you naive enough to think it wouldn't happen to us?
Concept C: Foreign workers are less-apt than Americans
This is pure ego run amuck! Since the 80's, every foreign country has been improving their educational systems (most of which are now better than ours), and churning out qualified computer scientists, electrical engineers, and computer engineers. It was only a matter of time before corporations sought to tap into that resource. Why hire a bunch of Americans from average underfunded party schools when you can hire better educated and cheaper foreigners from the best schools in India, China, Czech Republic, etc.? That's capitalism at its best.
I'm all for altruism and idealism, but the reality is that these decisions are driven by $$$, and nothing else. If we want to keep CS/IT jobs here in the USA, we need to create more value for less money. Otherwise, we WILL follow the same path as the industries I mentioned above.
Well, there's always miners. Mining jobs are among the highest-paying jobs in the country (U.S.). Support mining and miners in your community, for not only do miners provide the raw materials (avg. is 45,000lbs/year of newly mined minerals for each American) for everything from basic infrastructure, agriculture, communications, power generation, etc. to luxury goods, but the money we spend in the community, from equipment to services to goods, helps everyone. I know it isn't perfect, but you have to admit that countries with abundant natural resources are the richer nations.
I'm relatively secure in my job discovering mineral deposits, knowing that for at least the next hundred years or more, we'll still need everything from gravel to gold, and that we'll need someone to find those deposits, and mine them.
-cp-
We'll see much, much more job flight in the short term until the brakes are applied to this savage anti-social approach.
what brakes? the reason all this is happening is that the american economy is overinflated. inside the united states are high wages and high cost, with much of the rest of the world as a relative vacuum.
don't give me the corporate greed hatespeak--you can view the income statements and balance sheets yourself for the largest corportations. things are expensive in the united states because production costs are high. production costs are high because workers demand more money. workers demand more money because cost of living is high (notice i'm not using "greedy worker" hatespeak). cost of living is high because things are expensive. the cycle goes on and pressure grows.
this cycle is protected such policies as taxing imports, fixing high prices on agriculture, and creating barriers to accessing foreign labor. these policies don't help ameri
by putting the "brakes" on, all you're doing is keeping the pressure in. i'm not saying we need to rip open the floodgates (in fact, i think that would be very dangerous), but the solution is not to just keep plugging holes. what happens when the average american is making 100 times as much as the average indian without an improved standard of living from where americans are now? what about 200 times?
you can't let the pressure grow forever. we will size up eventually, either now in a controlled manner by choice, or later in a dangerous and chaotic manner by force (when nobody else in the world will pay so much for our labor or goods, but we still want imports from them).
pardon me for ending this post with bitching, but i'm getting really tired of politicians who propose lots of great things for america when they are really just passing the cost to the next generation. it sounds great at first to protect the american workers in these ways, but america must pay in the end.
char *mySig;
I happen to be an American citizen born in America (and a Republican voter to boot), who studies in America and lives in India. So I have both angles covered here.
Let me begin by saying that I have a 10 year work permit for India and it took me all of two days and 5 bucks in postage stamps to get it.
My friends have had hell trying to get student visas, forget H1Bs. They are submitted to such embarrasment as showing bank balances to prove they can afford the entire college course (not, say 20gs for one year, but 100gs for all four!). If they don't shave or come for their interviews wearing shorts, they are often rejected for their I-20s despite having all the necessary credentials.
A friend of mine got rejected for renewal of his I-20 -- after having been in American college for two years, he was rejected when reapplying for his third. The interviewer asked him if he was planning on living in America after college, and he said no, I don't like America all that much, and so was rejected!
Another friend was rejected on the basis that his father is self-employed. The interviewer said that since you are going to take over your father's business anyway, why go to college?
Yet another of my friends decided to go to England over America because the visa officer indirectly hinted that she was going to America to look for a husband with an American passport.
I like America, and am proud to be, but the INS really is the worst, most incompetent and most impolite immigration service I have encountered yet. As an American, I throw a fit when a foreign visa office treats me badly --but look at the humiliation my own doles out. It's disgusting.
The saddest story is of a friend of mine who goes to a large state school. He got trashed one night in college and some friend of his tore out his visa from his passport. He reported it to the INS who required that he leave the country before they issued him a new one. He ended up losing a year of college and a year of fees to the INS.
Makes me sick as an American. All I can say is, power to those who endure the punishing visa process -- they desrve the bloody jobs after all that!
shooting is not too good for my enemies
I used to work at a major network hardware company. They had outsorced a large chunk of QA work to some contractors in India -- some script-writing, some regression tests, and other sundry tasks. Without necessarily making any broad generalizations about Indian contractors or foreign contracting in general, let me share my experiences and impressions with you, in the hopes that you won't make the same mistake that my company made.
1. Time zone: I was on the East Coast (EST/EDT). I beleive that India was about 12 hours away from us, give or take. This meant that basically anything you asked them to do took at least 1 full working day, since by the time I got into work, they were in bed. You can just imagine the problems this caused when deadlines or other time-critical matters were involved.
2. Language: Again, without making any broad generalizations... Their English sucked. It was nearly impossible to communicate with them on the phone and their written English was less than acceptible. Also, based on serveral very frustrating experiences with the whole group, I concluded that their comprehention of written English was equally poor. We finally found a guy there who could understand English well enough to explain things to the rest of the group, but even then, my confidence level was quite low.
3. Work Ethic/Product: Both the group in question and several other Indians I've worked with since then have had some similar issues w/r/t how they worked and what they produced. Again, not to generalize... If you give them very clear, step-by-step instructions to perform a discrete task, they generally will perform the task quite thoroughly. However, if the procedure requires any deviation from the norm or any creativity or synthesis, you're better off doing it yourself, because they'll never figure it out.
We also had problems getting them to listen to anyone other than management -- they basically ignored team lead's, including myself.
In their defense, I understand that the education system in India teaches them to work this way; it has a large focus on rote memorization and obeyance of authority. That's great, and it seems to work for them. However, that's not how we work in the US, and folks who have gone to US (or European or Chinese) schools and worked with others of the similar ilk will get very frustrated trying to mesh with thinking processes that are polar opposites of their own. Furthermore, I find this thinking process thoroughly unproductive and pretty much useless in an Engineer.
Now, I'm just waiting for someone to write back flaming me for being some kind of racist, so let me state once more that I am relating my personal experiences with certain Indians. I went to grad school with several amazingly talented Indians whom I would choose to work with in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to reinforce any sterotypes or discriminatory policies.
What I am trying to say is caveat emptor. If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is. Sure, you can get engineering labor abroad for 10 cents on the dollar. But in many cases, you get what you pay for.
And finally, there are countless qualified engineers in AMERICA who need jobs. If a foreign individual or group has skills you can't find here, then fine, bring them here. But in the long run, you hurting yourself, your company, and your fellow Americans by trying to save a buck abroad. It ain't worth it.
Do not channel your energy into being angry. Do something about the problem. Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing".
Silicon Valley has 8% unemployment, but Intel says that it cannot find engineers to fill its ranks. Intel insists that the American government allow it to hire H-1B workers from India and China (which includes Taiwan and Hong Kong).
Fax a letter to your local Congressional representative and tell her that you want the immediate termination of the L-1 and H-1B programs. Do not wait for someone else to carry out your civic responsibility. Move your ass. Do the job.
I am a software developer for the world's largest network of independent executive recruiters. We provide software and services which allow recruiters to share jobs, candidates, and generally network together. We are to staffing what the MLS is to real-estate.
Currently, there are 40,604 jobs in our database. Approximately 4809 are actively being recruited right now.
Of those 4809, 17 indicate the client is willing to sponsor or hire a non-us citizen.
That's about 1/3 of 1 percent.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
Actually I am not 21. I am 33. And, at my age, my father was making a great deal more money than I am, especially when you adjust for inflation. Of course, he worked a lot "harder" than I do. But I do believe there was a higher job/person ratio back then. Employees are increasing at a faster rate than employers. Why is it that you glass is half full people are always thinking that things are just constantly getting better, that the future is always better than the past? I'll believe that when I see it.
Maybe I'm slow, but it would seem to me that if workers could chase jobs across borders, the increased supply of labor would drive wages down, not up. That's why the US doesn't open our borders to all workers who want to come here---if everyone migrated to the US, wages would plummet.
Here's an interesting tidbit for Americans who are considering working in the EU.
If you have an Irish grandparent (and you can track down the proof that they were born in Ireland), you can have your name entered in the registry of foreign births, and tada! You're an Irish citizen (they do allow dual citizenship with the US).
Then you can work anywhere in the EU. Plus you can travel with your Irish passport, and (if you can do the accent) reduce your risk of being shot for sport in places that are getting hostile to Americans. Neat, huh? Of course, you do need that Irish grandparent...
There's a nice summary here, and the relevant page with the Irish Embassy.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.