Microsoft Money Leads To Street-Legal Porsche 959s

Ken Greenebaum writes "Soon there will be a 'new' Porsche 959 racing down highway 520 in Redmond. This article in autoweek describes how Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Ralph Lauren teamed up with Bruce Canepa to make the 959 street legal. Best quote: Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."' They modernized and increased the performance of the already super car to: 575HP making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds with a top speed of 215MPH."

Comments

tagging bills together

[zeoslap]

The thing that struck me about this article was how screwed up the US political system is whereby bills are all bundled together, I won't even get into the fact that with enough cash you can get your own laws considered. This particular law was denied twice (which in of itself should see it permanently denied) but on the third try it was ushered through because the bill it was riding on was a sure fire winner, lame.

All that being said it's cool that they finally got the cars into the US, only wish I could afford one :)

Re:tagging bills together

[FJ]

Bundeling unrelated things together in congress is nothing new. It is a favorite way to get pet projects and a way to manuver things in your way. Both parties do it and all presidents hate it.

They tried to change this a few years back by giving the presedent a line item veto. It was declared unconstitutional because it gave the executive branch too much power over the legislative branch. The only way to change it legally is for a constitutional amendment.

The funny thing is that most state governments allow for a line item veto.

Re:tagging bills together

[JimBobJoe]

The thing that struck me about this article was how screwed up the US political system is whereby bills are all bundled together

This is a peculiarity of Congress. States usually have constitional requirements for single subject bills (with names that identify what the bill does, none of this "Save the babies and orphaned Hamsters act of 2003" shit) as well as line item veto.

I happen to know that several states, like my Ohio, and Illinois, get pretty mean on enforcement...courts have no problems throwing out laws simply because they were codified under a bill that had multiple subjects.

Re:tagging bills together

[Goth Biker Babe]

Car safety is interesting. It's not a simple thing to solve as there are so many dependencies amoung numerous factors.

a) Speed does not kill. If it killed then people would be dieing all the time in F1 and World Super Bikes. There is an increase in risk but nothing like you would expect. Inapproprate speed kills. 70mph on a dry road with little traffic is safer than 50mph in fog in the rush hour.

b) There's primary safety verses secondary safety. For example there are some types of accident where a motorcyclist is better off than a car driver as the biker will come off and slide down the road where as the driver is contained. Also on a motorcycle you're more likely to be able avoid a collision. My bike, which is relatively slow, will accelerate to 100mph and brake back to zero within 15 seconds. Together with it being thin and it's handling means that I'm more able to avoid accidents than in a car.

I should also introduce risk compensation theory here. A Volvo or SUV should, in theory, be safer than, say a classic mini, but the driver either consciously or unconsciously knows this and so drives less safely.

c) Personal responsibility is another factor. US air bags are far more explosive than european ones because in Europe we assume that drivers and passengers are wearing seat belts. US car manufacturers assume their customers are not. In fact new US regulations have killed the classic lines of cars like Aston Martins as they now have to be designed so that idiots who drive without safety devices don't hurt themselves too much.

d) Experience of drivers. Although technically the UK national speed limit is 70mph provided coniditions are right speeds up to 100mph are sort of tolerated on motorways. If you ask any driver over here, most would say they've driven at atleast 80mph, and probably 90mph at some point or other. And yet our road death toll is proportionally far less than the US and motorways are the safest roads in the UK. In Germany on the autobahns speeds of 150mph are not unknown. It's because we're used to these speeds.

e) The vehicles themselves. Sports cars are always safer than regular cars or SUVs at the same speed because they have better brakes, better handling and better acceleration. Accelerating out of trouble on a road (to avoid a collision) is just as valid as braking to avoid one and in some cases more advisable. It's similar which sports bikes and sports/tourers.

Judging from what I've seen on these US reality COP TV shows the average European car has better braking, handling and acceleration than the US equivalent. The narrators express horror at vehicles travelling at speeds which are normal in Europe.

Arguments against high speed cars are generally flawed because in the end a car is as fast as you drive it and if you're rich enough to own one you can afford to go to track days at a local circuit (which are very popular over here and great fun).

Re:tagging bills together

[Scratch-O-Matic]

In the UK our bills have a short title...

Here in the U.S., our bills are required to have titles involving children, widows, or sick veterans.

Re:tagging bills together

[hey!]

First, let me say that I have several friends who race or simply like to drive fast on a track.

I have no problem with them having a street legal car that will do +200 MPH, because I know they drive at normal speeds to and from the track. Occaisionally they "cheat" a bit, but for the most part they get it out of their system on the track. I remember when on of my friends got his RX-7; he drove like a nitwit for a few months, until he started going down to the track, and realized how idiotic it is to endanger other people who are just trying to get from point A to point B in once piece.

I'm not sure whether I'm for or against this; I have a feeling that the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Speed does kill -- or at least speed differentials. People who make the arguments you have always talk like they're the only people on the road. It's safer for a family sedan travelling at 60mph to share the road with a nitwit driving at 100MPH than to share it with a nitwit driving at 200MPH. The roads are simply not adequately engineered to support these kinds of speeds, much less the speed differentials. Even responsible drivers like my friends sometimes drive with excessive speeds, and the nitwits are going to do it every chance they get.

I'd support making these cars street legal if there were some way to control them off the track. Suppose the car's computer recorded when it travelled at > 100MPH, and at inspection time this would be compared to records kept at tracks. Travelling at speeds exceeding 100MPH off the track would be punishable by permanent license revocation and seizing the car. Perhaps there would be a special key that would enable full performance. I beleive some high performance cars have this, to discourage joy riding by valet parking attendants.

Re:tagging bills together

[Zeinfeld]

In the UK our bills have a short title, which is what they'll be known as if passed, and a long title which sets out what the law is for. The bill may not contain anything that is not consistent with the long title.

That is not the reason for the difference. In the UK the government controls time in both houses of parliament and introduces almost every bill (except for private members bills and 5 minute rule bills). The government has such a tight control on the legislature that there is nothing to be gained by adding an ammendment to an unrelated bill. If the government does not like the ammendment they can either strip it out in the Lords or gut it on the floor of the House.

There are cases of ammendments of this particular type making it into law but they would have to be attached to a relevant bill, in this case it would probably be a transport bill. What you do not get is ammendments to bills that direct money to particular interests such as a tax break for Haliburton or (Bob Dole's favorite) Archer Daniels Midland.

In effect the situation is much closer to what you would have in the US if there was a line item veto provision.

It is also possible for a private bill to get passed. This is a major undertaking but occasionally happens, usually for something like the channel tunnel, building of a railway line or such.

Re:tagging bills together

[King_TJ]

Actually, I thought it was a great story of one person's tenacity winning out over government red tape!

From your comment, I'm assuming you're not really that interested in high-performance automobiles - but please keep in mind that many folks are.

This was a case where the barrier to entry was so high, only the richest people could afford to be bothered with it - but similar situations happen all the time with foreign cars desired by American citizens.

I thnk the law that they finally got pushed through is a sensible one, and should help out many more people than just Bill Gates and his friends. Most of us might not be buying street legal, rare Porsches any time soon - but this same law would help make it possible to obtain a number of more inexpensive collector cars.

well

[toddhunter]

suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."
How about spending that crashing and testing time on windows instead???

Re:well

[Scorchio]

But they're trying to find something that will crash faster...

I would have thought...

[tarquin_fim_bim]

they'd have been crash testing Fords.

And no Skyline?

[Dancin_Santa]

Microsoft Money doesn't help me buy anything. It does tell me that I'm way over budget and will be bankrupt within 3 months of the start of the fiscal year.

Microsoft money buys laws

[vought]

The article comes right out and says that Gates' money paid for a high-priced attorney to work directly with NHTSA, EPA and lawmakers to fashion legislation that would permit their nice little rich guys' plaything. It's a cool car, but I have trouble working up sympathy after reading this story. Why does anyone have trouble believing Gates and Co. wouldn't do the same thing when it comes to matters involving billions of dollars? That antitrust case sure went out with a whimper, didn't it?

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[Wyatt Earp]

What has always struck me as idiotic is that the 959 wasn't street legal in the US while other, non-crash-worthy super cars like the Ferrari F40 and F50, Pantera and Shelby Cobra have been.

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[WalterSobchak]

Would you have a list of the various legal and non-legal "non-crash" cars? What are the requirements.

And if I please may rant a little bit: The 959 is good enough for the Autobahn, it is good enough for you. Crash data for the car exists, the Kraftfahrtbundesamt has strict specs for giving the "street legal" verdict.

Alex

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[abmurray]

What has always struck me as idiotic is that the 959 wasn't street legal in the US while other, non-crash-worthy super cars like the Ferrari F40 and F50, Pantera and Shelby Cobra have been.

Whether or not a car is 'street legal' in the US is entirely up to the manufacturer. The car must adhere to emissions and safety regulations. The car must also be crash-tested and all relevant information throughly documented. There's a host of hoops the manufacturer must jump through that can add significantly to the cost of the car.

It's not the government that was keeping the 959 from being street legal, but Porsche itself.

--
a.b. murray

Re:Microsoft money buys laws

[big_gibbon]

From the story, it doesn't look like it was crash data they were worried about:

Since the 959 could not meet U.S. bumper or ride-height requirements, it was going to be imported as a "race car" rather than a street-going model.

The Fast and the Furious III

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates in a Vin Diesel like role? The influence, the respect, the mystery...

Robert Love as the guy undercover as the Porshe employee investigating Microsoft's under-the-table dealings with Porshe, to see if more than "Microsoft Money" is involved...

Natalie "Hot Grits" Portman as his love interest who is also a Porshe racer...

Steve Ballmer, who screams "On your mark, get set, go" over and over like the crazed monkey he is...

Darl McBride running around, making sure the cars are using street-legal parts else pay him a special fee to make sure their cars don't "have problems" before a big race?

Who knows... It wouldn't be any worse than if Hollywood tried to make this!

nonononono.....

[E1v!$]

this is just stupid. why bother with that when you can have THIS.

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

this is just stupid. why bother with that when you can have [a Porsche Carrera GT].

Because a 959 has history associated with it. If you don't understand that, you're either a kid, or someone who doesn't appreciate cars.

Just because something newer and faster comes along, doesn't mean older cars no longer matter. The 959 is one of the most significant Porsche's ever made. Maybe one day the Carrera GT will be too, but I doubt it. 20 years from now I bet a 959 is worth much more than GT.

Re:nonononono.....

[toopc]

A purist would tell you all Porsche sucks since 87 (?) when they stopped making their own engines but it's hardly a mystery that Porsches recently have stopped being cars for sportsmen and people who enjoy a good driving experiences, but cars for MS CEOs and rappers.

Purists? Try snobs. Every generation of Porsche owners has it's share.

There's your example.

Then there is the 964 owners who say the 993 isn't a true 911 because Porsche got help from the Japanese to reign in costs and thus produced a lower quality car (the 993 actually sold for $5000 less that the previous year's 964). They also point to the swept back fenders and headlights as more proof

Then, of course, is the 993 owners who say the 996 isn't a true 911 because it has a water cooled engine. They are many, and probably the most vocal of the snobs.

And no doubt there will be 996 owners who find something wrong with the next generation. I'm pretty sure there are even a few 356 owners who think anything else isn't really a Porsche.

Basically these are the people who are insecure about their decision to buy their car and try to make themselves feel better about it by convincing others they own the 'real deal'. These truly are the oft mentioned people who buy a Porsche to make up for a lack of manhood.

Elsewhere...

[mcpkaaos]

John Carmack is seen hastily building a new rocket, loaded with weapons-grade plutonium, mumbling something about being "one-upped" about his Ferrari and some reference to a "last laugh".

Easy, Ashcroft, I was kidding about the plut++++NO CARRIER

Seems to me...

[fruey]

... like more time, thought and money went into getting a car street legalised than my poor little principles can handle. Add to that getting a law passed specifically for it, and really you're showing just how enough money can get you almost anything in the US.

Cool cars maybe, but this is obscene. Nobody gets anything out of this except a few rich kids fans of 80s porsches, and indeed the cars aren't really anything like what they were before (as classics) because the turbos, ignition system, and fuel injectors are all completely changed in the process.

Another case where the lawyers make more money than the rest of us.

It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[commodoresloat]

Once they heard Ford was switching to Linux they figured they had to do something to compete in the auto market.

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[hype7]

Best quote: Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

Ahhh, the sweet irony.

Who better to get a Porsche to crash than Bill Gates?

-- james

Re:It's obvious why M$ pulled this shit

[BLAG-blast]

Who better to get a Porsche to crash than Bill Gates?

It wouldn't be that bad, all you'd have to do is close all the windows and try again...

Gates driving style

[Anonymous Coward]

If Gates drives his Porche like his software drives my computer, get your children inside and stay of the roads...

Too expensive

[Powercntrl]

I'd rather get a Honda Civic and cover it in Type-R stickers... With each one adding 5 extra horsepower, I'd surely end up with a faster car!

Only not street legal in the United States!

[avidday]

The 959 was always street legal, expcept in the US, because of Porsche's refusal to supply the required vehicles (up to four if memory serves correctly) for the mandatory crash test. People have been happily and safely driving their road specification 959's (Porsche had to build 200 road going examples for FIA Group B homologation purposes) in many other places since deliveries began in late 1987.

This is how America works

[Qrlx]

This story should be made into a movie. Perhaps a documentary.

"...We formulated a law--that if 500 or fewer cars were produced, if they weren't currently produced, if they were never U.S.-legal, and if they were rare--you could import them without having to pass DOT standards. As long as they met EPA standards and were driven no more than 2500 miles per year, they'd be legal."

...The supercar proviso became law when President Clinton signed off on it. After eight years of struggle, the real hassles were about to begin for the 959 project. "The next step was to reduce the bill to writing so DOT could administer it. At first they weren't happy about it. Their attitude was 'We're short-staffed as it is, so how are we going to deal with this?' But the government worked diligently to help our cars pass inspection."

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive. Then, there's the fact that someone(s) in Congress (aka "your representative") felt s/he was acting appropriately when the attached this rider to the transportation bill. Finally, we've got the lawyers, who dreamed up this scheme where we have to pay (see "your money" above) so the super-wealthy chase their small-penised dreams.

This whole damn situation is so friggin' complex that I am really having a hard time determining who I should be pissed off at.

Personally, if I were that rich, I would just find a way to bring the car in illegally. How hard can that really be? On the other hand, I know Bill Gates gets his most intense satisfaction every time his lawyer-monkeys find a way to make legal something that really isn't.

Re:This is how America works

[JimBobJoe]

There's so many things wrong here. For starters, Federal tax dollars (aka "your money") are being spent to push the paperwork on a car that only the super-wealthy will ever drive.

While this law was drawn for them...it's entirely possible that a far smaller car collector would benefit. They may want a rare european car whose value is no where near the value of a 959, and import it into the US...they would be able to under this law. It's not just for the super rich.

What you should be pissed off (and that you left out of your rant) is the fact that the article noted that the DOT had a major bug up its ass about the 959, and wanted to set some type of example with it. When an institution makes those types of decisions, they have to deal with the consequences, in this case, a bunch of people trying to override them (and the simple pleasure of busting a federal bureaucracy's balls is worth the law to me.) On the other hand, DOT nursed its wounds and then wrote out a huge amount of time and money wasting bureaucratic regulations to enforce a law that's fairly straightforward, simply because it's ego was hurt.

Echoing what another reply said to your post, why they don't allow you to sign a waiver form in the first place is beyond comprehension.

Re:Too bad for them...

[mcpkaaos]

...what you want with such a car on North American roads?

Well, we could have a Cannonball Run 3. We even have a modern day Dom DeLuise. Sorry Balmer, you brought it on yourself. I guess Gates could be Burt Reynolds, but I doubt he can grow a mustache.

Linux Mechanic?

[teamhasnoi]

Sure, Bill, the brakes look great! Drive faster!

Crash Test Dummies . . .

[Dausha]

So, will Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Bruce Canepa or Ralph Lauren also volunteer to be crash test dummies? I don't think we should accept all four of them a couple will suffice. After all, you can't have a accurate crash test without end-user testing.

This should be a slashdot poll questions: Who should be the first CTD?

Why isn't anyone pissed about the import part?

[Excen]

Currently, it costs $90,000 to import a USED Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 to the U.S. and to make it street legal. For those of you who don't know, it's the silver and blue car that Paul Walker drives in 2 Fast 2 Furious. (Yeah, it's the one with the steering wheel on the wrong side. . . ) Mind you, it costs a third of that in Japan BRAND SPANKING NEW! You can buy a 2-year-old Toyota Corolla equivalent for 6 thousand in Japan, however, due to the asinine import laws governing foreign trade, it costs two times the cost of the car to get the tests done to prove that the car was street legal and emmisions compliant in the first place, and to pay the import duties. To get the car released from customs to do the emissions testing, a bond of 250 PERCENT OF THE PRICE OF THE CAR must be put up to ensure that you will get the emissions done. You get that money back, but who has the cash to pony up like that when you are buying a car?

Anyways, that's my rant on Stupid American Laws.

"No beer until you finish your tequila!"
-Leela's Dad

Hmmm...

[wetson]

Gates 'suggested to Canepa that perhaps they could federalize the car by buying a number of sacrificial 959s to "crash and test."'

...so I assume they'll be installing Windows on them?

Re:Too bad for them...

[BJH]

Let's see exactly how much a Porsche Carerra GT would cost Bill Gates (relatively speaking).

His net worth is currently $US34,234,884,352.40 (according to the Bill gates Net Worth Page).
A brand-new Porsche Carerra GT costs an estimated $US400,000.
That means that the cost to Bill Gates is approximately 0.0012% of his total worth.
According to the US Census Bureau, the median net worth of a US household in 1995 was $US40,200. Let's adjust that upward by, say, 10% to take into account the past eight years - the amount is now $US44220.
0.0012% of 44220 is 53 cents.

Conclusion: A Porsche Carerra GT for Bill Gates is equivalent to a couple of cans of Coke for the average American.

Microsoft Money?

[bastard42]

I had no idea MS Money was that good. Is anyone going to patch gnucach for this? Will I have to wait for Quicken to do it first?

I mean, just think how useful it would be if I could have bills introduced into the Senate from my OSS program anytime I couldn't legally use (or afford) something. Hell, maybe they could implement it for the EU as well. That would be kick ass.

Speeding??????

[MonkeyPaw]

"Soon there will be a 'new' Porsche 959 racing down highway 520 in Redmond."

Speeding down 520? When? With all the traffic on that highway I think top speed is 15mph.

This is how America works, and why it's an outrage

[alpha]

Is it because Bill Gates is involved, or did (almost) everybody here
decide to trade in their aspiration for freedom and pursuit of happiness
for this pitiful whining about how there ought to be some law to stop
these "rich bastards" from buying faster cars than most of us here can
afford. It reeks of ill masked jealousy and outright socialism.

There IS an outrage in this story, and it's the fact that there already
WAS a law like that, and that it took these people 10 YEARS and hundreds
of thousands of dollars to obtain PERMISSION from their own government
(the government "by the people", charged with protecting "our rights") to
import a few rare cars! It's an outrage that customs considers these cars
contraband because of some ill advised regulations that clearly shouldn't
apply in a situation like this.

Would the same laws make anyone who builds a custom vehicle a
criminal? Saying that it's for private use off public roads clearly wasn't
a defense, since the cars that were imported under "race" classification
were impounded as well!

It would make a lot more sense for crash-test/emission laws to impose an
additional tax on non-compliant cars. That way mass producers would make
sure their cars comply, but enthusiasts willing to pay the fee wouldn't be
turned into criminals for possessing "illegal" cars. Based on the
principles of freedom that are supposed to govern this country, that's
what i (apparently wrongly) assumed must already be the case!

This article shed some light on a very disturbing example of how our
government appears to have lost its appreciation for who are the servants
and who are the masters, the government or the people that elect and
employ them?

Easy to handle supercar, too...

[Goonie]

From all that I've read about the 959, it's apparently reasonably easy to drive at sane speeds, and if you up the ante a bit four-wheel-drive tends to tame the handling characteristics of cars quite nicely.

And frankly I'd expect Bill Gates in a 959 to be a hell of a lot safer than a random Hollywood actor in, say, a Dodge Viper with that rubber chassis it's lumbered with...

Ways around this already.

[The-Perl-CD-Bookshel]

All you need is someone who is a german citizen to apply to bring his car to the United States. The "permit" that the car recieves expires in one year from the date issued. To renew? Simply drive out of the country (Canada, Mexico) and get your update from customs. There are a handful of rich guys here in NJ driving Lamborghini Diablo VT Roadsters and Lotus Elises that are sporting foreign plates and never have a problem.

The real truth about the US 959

[britt]

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.ph p? threadid=1594

Here is some info from the guy who did the work for
Gates, and wrote the 959 portion of the Show & Display law.

Canepa Design really has had nothing to do with this

B

3.3 seconds?

[greysky]

making the 15 year old cars race to 60 in 3.3 seconds

A Kawasaki Z1000 will do 0-60 in 3.15, costs only $8500, and comes street legal. Once again there's a faster, cheaper alternative to the Microsoft Solution...

Re:3.3 seconds?

[Lord_Dweomer]

"A Kawasaki Z1000 will do 0-60 in 3.15, costs only $8500, and comes street legal."

Yes, yes it does. I could beat one too. In my '86 Jeep Wagoneer Ltd. for that matter. Know how? Its very simple.

Race starts.....I jerk my wheel to the left (or right depending on what side the bike is on) and accelerate.

Game. Set. Squish.

Old Joke

[rocketflyboy]

Q: What's the difference between Porsches and porcupines?

A: Porcupines carry their pricks on the outside!

Your MS Tax Dollars at Work

[Mooncaller]

or MS Innovations or ... Why go on, at 500+ posts, no one will ever read it. I would'nt.