European Parliament Clashes Over Software Patents

Could be worse... by Gortbusters.org · 2003-09-23 10:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

at least it's a clash and not everyone for the patents!

Ah, hopefully things will go well and all these great software projects (and their home pages) will go back to normal!

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Free your mind.

Re:Could be worse... by Spy+Hunter · 2003-09-23 11:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm rather confused. If you read the article, you see people claiming "The aim of this directive is neither to abolish nor to extend the patentability of pure computer programs", and if you read the directive itself, it does not appear to make it any easier to patent software. In fact, most of the stuff I read was simply clarifying existing statements that "computer-implemented inventions may be patented" (not software itself, but inventions that incorporate a software component), adding additional clarification on when it would not be appropriate to consider pure software or business methods "computer-implemented inventions". To me, this amendment only makes it harder to patent software, algorithms, and business methods.
An example: some inserted text reads:
"Computer-implemented inventions must be claimed with reference to either a product such as a programmed apparatus, or to a process carried out in such an apparatus. Accordingly, where individual elements of software are used in contexts which do not involve the realisation of any validly claimed product or process, such use will not constitute patent infringement."
Remembering that "Computer-implemented inventions" are quite clearly already patentable under current law, this passage only restricts their applicability. The amendment itself is full of such restrictions, and doesn't add any new ways of patenting computer programs that I can see. "The open-source community" is mentioned specifically in a part of the amendment. There is even a new passage making it legal to implement patented methods for the sole purpose of software interoperability, and protecting reverse engineering! Where exactly is the problem with this legislation? You might disagree with the fact that it is possible to patent "computer-implemented inventions" at all, but you can already do that now. This amendment only makes it harder. If you want to strike this concept out of current law, you should lobby for a different amendment and leave this one alone.

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main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Re:Could be worse... by \/\/ · 2003-09-23 12:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's supposed to be confusing. Yes, to the unsuspecting computer guy (and MP!) it reads like pure software patents should not be allowed. What it means in reality, you can read on FFII's web site.

Especially read 4. How CEC/JURI ensure Unlimited Patentability: Some Sample Provisions from their Directive Proposal for a translation into real English: For a patent laywer, the term "computer-implemented inventions" means that everything that potentially runs on a computer (like, Software) can now be patented! Compare this to the existing law, which explicitly forbids pure software patents, yet the EPO (European Patent Office) granted ~30,000 software patents, from one-click shopping over email archiving to progress bars (so much for the "don't extend current practice" bit).

What it would mean for Linux et al. if this practice will be officially sanctioned we all know...
Re:Could be worse... by rhysweatherley · 2003-09-23 12:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

In fact, most of the stuff I read was simply clarifying existing statements that "computer-implemented inventions may be patented" (not software itself, but inventions that incorporate a software component), adding additional clarification on when it would not be appropriate to consider pure software or business methods "computer-implemented inventions".
And herein lies the slippery slope. The current version makes it illegal to patent software on its own, but not software used as one component in some otherwise physical product. The standard example given, regurgitated by some of the MEP's in the referenced article, is that of mobile phones.
However, the mobile phone argument shows exactly why this is still a bad law. Mobile phones these days are essentially "software plus an antenna". So what happens when we allow people to patent "algorithm X plus an antenna"?
What we get is this: some open source programmer writes algorithm X, and deploys it in a usual fashion. Some patent miscreant then jumps up and says "hey, you're running algorithm X on a laptop with a wireless network card! You're infringing my patent and owe me royalties!".
No, the current "clarifications" are no good. Software patenting must be abolished completely, in all of its forms. If the physical device does not have some unique and novel feature of its own, sans software, then the device should not be patentable. Period.
Re:Could be worse... by Spy+Hunter · 2003-09-23 12:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

Ah, I see. I was reading this amendment wrong. I thought it was amending current law, but it is only amending a proposed law. I agree that this proposed law, even as amended, does appear to authorize a lot of software patents.

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main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Re:Could be worse... by kogs · 2003-09-24 00:09 · Score: 2, Informative

You were more correct initially.

The current law is EPC and national laws that are based on the EPC. The European Patent Office is not related to the EU.

All EU states are EPC contracting states but not all EPC states are EU states, e.g. Switzerland and Turkey.

The EU cannot change the statutory definition of what is patentable because this would conflict with the member states obligations under the EPC or creating a situation where nation patents are granted on a different basis to European patents, which would not make things clearer. However, it can change the law in EU states that relate to enforcement and can exclude some acts from the definition of infringement, e.g. acts for ensuring interoperability as proposed and private non-commercial use in UK law.

Theoretically, the EPC member states are meant to harmonise their interpretation of Art. 52(2) EPC. However, in the absence of EPO Board of Appeal decisions being binding precedent, there is a tendency for different countries to interpret Art. 52(2) EPC differently. The UK is a real culprit in this respect and has some decisions that are out of step with the EPO Boards of Appeal but binding on the UK patent office and lower UK courts.

The EU legislation is aimed at harmonising the interpretation of Art. 52(2) EPC and equivalent national law provisions in respect of computer-implementing inventions in the patent offices and courts of the EU states.

The basis of the standardisation is the interpretation established by the Boards of Appeal of the EPO.

The distinction is subtle. The aim is not to get everyone singing from the same song sheet, they do that already, but to get everyone singing in tune. Tbis is all explained here
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The citizens are coming after them with pitchfork. by Delron+Da+Thugg · 2003-09-23 10:59 · Score: 4, Funny

"because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual." Let's see if the citizens have as much sway as the real lobbies...probably only when they come with pitchforks and torches.

Heaven forefend! by Atario · 2003-09-23 10:59 · Score: 5, Funny

with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Imagine that -- contacted by (ugh) commoners. Oh, the ignominy!

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"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt

Re:Heaven forefend! by moonbender · 2003-09-23 11:23 · Score: 4, Informative

What are you referring to? He cited a MEP - MEPs are elected by European citizens, as far as I know. The European Commission isn't directly elected, but then, it's the executive, not the legislatory part of the European government.

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Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
Re:Heaven forefend! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-23 11:32 · Score: 4, Funny

Symptoms: "...some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed..."
Diagnosis: results of /. effect hitting a real person, not a computer
Re:Heaven forefend! by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2003-09-23 12:29 · Score: 4, Informative

He cited a MEP - MEPs are elected by European citizens, as far as I know.

Correct.

The European Commission isn't directly elected, but then, it's the executive, not the legislatory part of the European government.

Unfortunately, that's rather misleading. The European Commission are essentially appointed (though by elected governments, one hopes) whereas the European Parliament consists of directly elected MEPs. Unfortunately, we have here a rather bizarre system where the EC probably holds more real power than the EP. There are other players involved here as well, but when it comes down to it, hearing a commissioner state that some of the EP's amendments are "not acceptable to the Commission" is a fairly chilling warning that they're going to over-rule them.

Of course, given the frequently misunderstandings about what is and is not being proposed here, and the fact that idiots trying to be clever appear to be alienating the very elected representatives who needed to be convinced, this could all be for the best anyway.

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If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Re:Heaven forefend! by misterpies · 2003-09-23 23:01 · Score: 4, Interesting

A quick EU primer. The EU is set up according to the classic tripartite division of power into executive, legislature and judiciary, as is found in most democratic states (including the US).

The Commission is the executive of the EU. It carries out and polices EU law. It also proposes EU legislation, but since it cannot itself pass the legislation this does not make it a legislative body. Indeed, in most democracies the bulk of legislation is proposed by the executive (including the US and UK).

The Council of Ministers and the Parliament together form the legislature. Every piece of new EU legislation proposed by the Commission must be ratified by the Council of Ministers to take effect. In many areas, the approval of the Parliament is also required. Just as in the US and UK, the legislature can amend or throw out proposed legislation.

Finally, the European Court of Justice is (predictably) the judiciary of the EU. It has the power to strike down EU legislation for being incompatible with the Treaties that created the EU, as well as ensuring that the Commission, Council of Ministers, Parliament, Member States and individuals follow EC law.

While the EU is often condemned as being undemocratic, its legislature is in essence much like the US congress. The Parliament, like the House of Representatives, is elected by the people on on a demographic basis (more populous regions get more MEPs). The Council of Ministers, like the US senate, is made up of an equal number of representatives from each member state. While members are not elected directly to the council, they are drawn from the democratically-elected governments of the member states and so are ultimately subject to democratic control.

The big gap in EU democracy is in the unelected nature of the executive, the commission. But it's unfair to blame that on the EU itself -- it was the member states who vetoed the idea of a popularly elected President of the commission at the EU constitutional convention. Why? precidely because an elected President would give the EU Commission democratic legitimacy, and therefore suck power away from individual governments. It's the same story again and again -- national governments deliberately deny the EU proper democratic accountability precisely in order that they can then denounce EU policies they disagree with as being undemocratic and so retain their own grip on power.

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The author of this post asserts his moral rights.

Interesting. by BitterOak · 2003-09-23 11:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Interesting. So now when citizens try to express their views on upcoming legislation to elected officials, it's "harassment". Only industry reps should be allowed this privilege?

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If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?

Re:Interesting. by s20451 · 2003-09-23 11:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

Describing your opinion over a $200 dinner and a 1965 Merlot = Lobbying

Describing your opinion to an aide in the lobby after waiting for hours to talk to someone = Harassment

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Re:Interesting. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-23 11:24 · Score: 5, Informative

READ THE ARTICLE YOU CRETINS! Only Arlene Macarthy complained of harassment for reasons that are perfectly obvious to anyone who knows ANYTHING about the situation. Who the hell is modding this shit as insightful?
Re:Interesting. by iabervon · 2003-09-23 12:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

There are a whole lot of citizens, and MEPs only expect to need a relatively small staff. MEPs, even if they don't favor industry representatives, really prefer hearing from representatives over hearing from the entire represented group. On most issues, concerned citizens organize or join existing organizations, which lobby on their behalf. This has become important to a lot of people pretty suddenly, which means that a lot of people are talking to their MEPs directly. It doesn't really give the MEP a good idea of the argument; if that many people are trying to talk to you individually, you can't even figure out what side each one is on, let alone sort out the different arguments or notice arguments you haven't heard before.

In such situations, the correct thing to do is really to deal the legislation, so that the citizens can sort themselves into groups based on their views and make coherent presentations of their concerns.
Re:Interesting. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-23 12:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

I guess the "harrasment" came from this comment:

Joachim WUERMELING (D), [...] He regretted the sometimes personal and irrational lobbying that had taken place. [...]

Just for the record: I am an EU citizen, I wrote an Email to Mr. Wuermeling, and he took the time to reply personally, explaining his position and adressing my concerns.
So him feeling "harrassed" doesn't seem to hit the nail here.

Also, after being against this EU derective for long time, I had to change my viewpoint somewhat.
This directive will not allow to patent business processes and pure software. Conversely it will stop the current EU-Patent-wild-growth (the EPA in Munich has alreday granted 30000 software related patents).

Yes, there may be legal loop-holes, and these have to plugged over time.

Most definitly the brain-dead US approach is not adopted.
Re:Interesting. by fname · 2003-09-23 12:26 · Score: 4, Informative

Geeze, RTFA. Or at least search TFA. The article says,
Arlene McCarthy regrettably added that in all the years that she had been an MEP, she had not been treated in such an aggressive manner. She said she and her staff had been bullied and harassed.
Ok, apparently the submitter of the story has a much better idea of what makes the MEPs tick than the write of the real article does. I mean, she says she was harassed-- maybe there were dozens of people lobbying her about the patents while walking to her car. I don't know. But the article clearly does not state that she feels harassed because, "they are suddenly being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens." The idea that she considers lobbying by citizens to be harassment is just a BS statement thrown in as redmeat to the anti-patent Slashdot crowd. It worked.

Obviously, the writer has an agenda, which is clear based on the link for the software patents. By knowingly mis-representing and mis-stating the complaint of the MEP, he only serves to call into question his own ethics. Ya, the story submitter seems like just the type who might actually bully an MEP, because he knows he's right. Slashdot lives down to its reputation once again.

And yeah, software patents seems like a bad idea (at least as implemented in the USA). That doesn't excuse the deliberate misrepresentation of facts (or, obviously, actual harrasment) by its opponents.
Re:Interesting. by asscroft · 2003-09-23 13:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's so sad that you're calling the US brain-dead and I can't disagree. It's mind boggling. The internet and world wide media was supposed to show the rest of the world how great we are, but it's done a lot to show me how f-ed up we are.

Just today on Fox News Oreilly had a big thing comparing America's teen pregnancy and STD rated to Europes, and then comparing America's Abstinence as the only option approach versus Europes Libertine sex-ed approach. We have four times the pregnancy rate as France and 12 times the ghonnorhea rate as Denmark. F-in Amsterdam where prostitution is legal, and there are more STD cases per 100000 here. WTF? Something isn't working.

Same holds true for binge drinking rates at college and underage drinking rates in the US versus alchohol use and abuse in europe. Suprisingly, toleration of alchohol creates a healthier mentality versus abolition (for those under 21). Exact same issue as sex.

The same holds true for Marijuana use/abuse. Not to mention the waste of money the war on Marijuana is.

Software Patents aren't an idealogy problem like these. They are instead a business vs. consumer problem. Yet, the business vs. consumer stance of europe makes so much more sense than America's sell-out policies.

I'm so disappointed in this puritanical corporate-sell out country. ( I know, if you don't like it, leave). Well maybe I will. I'll live where I'm free to code without fear of the DMCA and where I'm free to read without the government looking up my library records and where my children will get education and we'll all get health care and where my neighbor can smoke a J and it's no big deal because it really isn't a big deal and all that drug war money is instead spent to make life better. Imagine a land where you're free to tinker, and where we're brave enough to allow personal choices. Hmm, how ironic, home of the free and the brave. That should be HERE. That should describe America.

oh well. maybe someday.

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because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Re:Interesting. by Wolfbone · 2003-09-23 14:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Software Patents aren't an idealogy problem like these. They are instead a business vs. consumer problem. Yet, the business vs. consumer stance of europe makes so much more sense than America's sell-out policies."
Actually old bean, at least from where I stand, it is indeed a matter of ideology - the ideology of free speech, freedom to engage in the arts and sciences, freedom to communicate ideas and culture, freedom of thought.

It has been a long time since the failure of your great compatriot, Phil Salin and others to prevent the tragedy of ideas patenting in the U.S. and we Europeans have had the opportunity to prepare for this inevitable onslaught on our fundamental human rights. Yet it looks likely that the forces arrayed against us will prevail anyway.

I call them 'ideas patents' because that is what they really are - I am not primarily a software developer or a businessman but a mathematician and I see software patents from a rather different perspective than has been customary in the 'debates' in the E.U. Parliament. Ever since I first came across the abominations that are the RSA patent and the DHT transform patent and others like them I have become more and more disgusted and horrified at the level of intellect displayed by those charged with the responsibility of formulating and enacting laws on my behalf.

Every debate has centred on the economic consequences of patenting with no attention whatsoever paid to the rights of which I speak. Of course you'd think I needn't worry when a quarter of a million people (mostly programmers) signed a petition against software patents and an organization representing half a million European S.M.Es stated their opposition to them too. So it must be obvious to the MEPs that there isn't even an economic case to be made for patenting software - right?

Wrong! Unfortunately we have to contend with a level of disingenuity, stupidity or underhand venality - I don't know which - capable of making statements like this:

"With regards to calls for abolishing, within the EU, all patents on computer-implemented inventions, EU companies would be at a severe disadvantage in the global market place if they were not able to apply for a patent over their invention."

(From Arlene McCarthy's website). Even a child would laugh at such a cretinous non sequitur - not so your average MEP.
Re:Interesting. by EvilAlien · 2003-09-23 14:43 · Score: 2, Funny

I'll live where I'm free to code without fear of the DMCA and where I'm free to read without the government looking up my library records and where my children will get education and we'll all get health care and where my neighbor can smoke a J and it's no big deal because it really isn't a big deal and all that drug war money is instead spent to make life better. Imagine a land where you're free to tinker, and where we're brave enough to allow personal choices.
You just described Canada... except you missed the part about the bears, coyotes, and other assorted wildlife roaming freely in our cities ;)
We're not so big on the personal choice thing (our government likes to take away choice so that we don't hurt ourselves), but otherwise its pretty accurate.

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perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Re:Interesting. by aastanna · 2003-09-23 16:38 · Score: 4, Funny

You just described Canada
I was thinking the exact same thing, but I wonder how many people won't know that the bit about bears and coyotes roaming the cities is a joke.

Also, I'd like to throw in the obligitory comments about being able to walk down the streat and not get shot, and being able to visit other countries with your flag sewn on your backpack and not get shot...and...just generally not get shot.

Read the text! by TwistedSquare · 2003-09-23 11:03 · Score: 4, Interesting

regarding a draft Directive to legalize Software Patents

Most of the speakers emphasised that this was not about legalising software patents, and the impression from the linked article is that over half of the speakers understood what the debate was about and were against software patents.

Surely this is a good sign from the European Parliament?

you gotta love the European Parliament... by The+Lynxpro · 2003-09-23 11:04 · Score: 5, Funny

If I were an EU citizen, I'd certainly run for office. How can you not win a constituency when less than 10% of people turn out for the voting?

10. Gain EU Citizenship through the liberal citizenry laws in the Republic of Ireland.

20. Move to an EU country, err, excuse me, "Member State."

30. Run for the EU Parliament. Have 2 people vote for me and I win my seat!

40. PROFIT!!!

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"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*

Re:you gotta love the European Parliament... by gl4ss · 2003-09-23 11:19 · Score: 2, Informative

less than 10%????
wtf?

most votes would be deemed illeagal under such a low turnout.

and yeah i do live in eu, and yeah the partys(that i vote regularly) representive isn't in favor of software patents.

it certainly isn't "easy" to get elected as there are no shortage of candidates(if not for any other reason then because they get nice pay).

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:you gotta love the European Parliament... by The+Lynxpro · 2003-09-23 11:59 · Score: 2, Informative

"less than 10%????
wtf?
most votes would be deemed illeagal under such a low turnout.
and yeah i do live in eu, and yeah the partys(that i vote regularly) representive isn't in favor of software patents."

Which EU *Member State* do you live in? If I am to believe what the Financial Times reports, the turnout for EU Parliament elections in the U.K. are frequently at or below the 10% threshhold. I would also imagine that in other EU Member States that have a low regard for the Eurocracy also poll quite low as well (Sweden perhaps?)...

While it is completely off-topic, I would have to agree that had the EC and the Central Bank came down hard on France and Germany for breaking their currency treaty requirements, the Swedish voters would've endorsed adopting the Euro... As it stands, the Euro is in danger of becoming funny money in the long term if France and Germany are not forced to meet their treaty obligations...

As for the other thing you said:

"it certainly isn't "easy" to get elected as there are no shortage of candidates(if not for any other reason then because they get nice pay)."

So in essence, critics of the California Recall should look to European elections before claiming it has no legitimacy due to the large number of candidates for the same elected position. I personally think we'd be better off in a parliamentry system myself...

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"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Re:you gotta love the European Parliament... by Delirium+Tremens · 2003-09-23 12:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

You are obviously not a programmer.
Re:you gotta love the European Parliament... by ahillen · 2003-09-23 19:13 · Score: 5, Informative

Which EU *Member State* do you live in? If I am to believe what the Financial Times reports, the turnout for EU Parliament elections in the U.K. are frequently at or below the 10% threshhold. I would also imagine that in other EU Member States that have a low regard for the Eurocracy also poll quite low as well (Sweden perhaps?)...

Why dont you just inform yoursel before just writing some wild guesses and thus givin a wrong impression? A simple Google search ("europarl European Elections") gives you as 4th link the UK office of the european parlament with information on the election turnout (http://www.europarl.org.uk/guide/textonly/Gelectt x.htm#facts) (please not the word facts at the end... ;) ).

To quote some numbers:
UK turnout has been between 24% and 36% in the last 5 elections, which is not at or below the 10% threshhold.
Sweden had a turnout of 41.6% and 38.3% in the 2 elections it took part.
Denmark had between 46.1% and 52.9%.
Belgium had aturnout alway >=90%.
EU average had been between 49.4% and 63%.
Unfortunately there is a negative trend, so in 20 years your statement might become true (which is especially sad because the EU parlament becomes more and more important...)

if France and Germany are not forced to meet their treaty obligations...

As a German I can say that at least the fact that Germany is breaking the stability pact for the second year in a row is not due to unwillingness, but due to inaptitude
Re:you gotta love the European Parliament... by ives · 2003-09-23 19:49 · Score: 2, Informative

Belgium had aturnout alway >=90%.

That's because in Belgium voting isn't a right but a duty. If you don't turn up during elections you can get fined (although judges have been very easy going on people who don't turn up to vote during the last couple of elections).

The idea is to protect the weaker groups in society as they usually are the first to forsake their voting rights. By forcing them to vote, you make sure that politicians will take them into account in their programs instead of just listening to more militant groups in society.

Open letter from SuSE by FonkiE · 2003-09-23 11:06 · Score: 5, Informative

SuSE wrote an open letter [german] today. Translation is here.
They are of course against software patents...

Re:Open letter from SuSE by Kumkwat · 2003-09-23 11:14 · Score: 2, Funny

Anybody got a translation that's in English?

Boo hoo hoo by Esion+Modnar · 2003-09-23 11:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Apparently they're not used to actually representing their constituents, as opposed to just their industry lobbyists.

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They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...

Re:Boo hoo hoo by nsample · 2003-09-23 11:32 · Score: 4, Informative

This is complete crap. I'm a Linux user, not a fanboy, so maybe that's why I read the article and can see it for what it was.

It was the European People's Party (aka, "Christian Democrats") that had some WAY over-zealous advocates harassing MPEs. Yes, that's an accurate word, "harassing." I believe it's accurate because of you read the article (and the poster clearly didn't), the EPP rep. APOLOGIZED for the extreme behavior of its zealots.

Joachim WUERMELING (D), for the EPP-ED group, broadly supported the rapporteur, and he alluded to the technical and legal difficulties surrounding the issue. He regretted the sometimes personal and irrational lobbying that had taken place.

He apologized because they were out of control. Showing up at an MPEs residence and hurling insults at them on their front door step in the name of OSS (or whatever) isn't "lobbying." It's harassment. Plain and simple.

Arlene McCarthy regrettably added that in all the years that she had been an MEP, she had not been treated in such an aggressive manner. She said she and her staff had been bullied and harassed.

And they were bullied. Hurling invectives in the name of OSS is still rude and over the top. Contrary to what /. readers believe, acting like an idiot isn't restricted to the folks from Redmond...

Malcolm Harbour MEP by alext · 2003-09-23 11:15 · Score: 4, Informative

Malcolm HARBOUR (EPP-ED, West Midlands) stated that patents played an indispensable role in making the EU the most dynamic knowledge based economy in the world. Patents, he said, help to stimulate investment and encourage invention. Protecting genuine invention and creativity would help business to develop products that people want to buy.

Needless to say, this guy has a page to himself on the FFII site.

My impression from this (admittedly brief) note is that even the most aged and out-of-touch members of the (British) House of Lords would have managed a more coherent debate on this. Still, it's not gone all the megacorps' way.

Just look at the U.S. by Ikeya · 2003-09-23 11:15 · Score: 5, Funny

I mean, software patents work so great over here with no problems at all! They should just model their system after the U.S.!

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---- Move SIG...For great justice!

Re:The citizens are coming after them with pitchfo by adamsan · 2003-09-23 11:17 · Score: 3, Informative

"because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual."

Total nonsense. All MEPs get lobbied by the public, stop trying to make them out as ivory tower-dwelling bureaucrats. Only Arlene MacArthy, the sponsor of this whole mess, complained of harassment. Seeing as she has been the focus of this whole mess and been unnecessarily painted as a heartless crone, it's not surprising some compaigners have gone over the top. Other representatives, especially my MEPs receive regular feedback from their constituents and at least listen to what they have to say.

EU == US? by The+Ape+With+No+Name · 2003-09-23 11:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual."

Heavens to Murgatroid! The Humanity! I'd expect this sort of contempt from a US Representative but not from such a democratic body as the EU Parliament.

--
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.

At least one MEP seems to understand by Hamster+Lover · 2003-09-23 11:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

From the notebook article:

"Neil MacCORMICK (Greens/EFA, Scotland) warned against possible "leakage" from genuine protection of computer implemented inventions to companies being able to patent computer software. He stated that the present system, where genuine inventions are patentable and software is protected by copyright worked well. The responsibility, he underlined, lay with the Commission to find a balance between over and under protection for inventions."

This is exactly the problem with the directive to begin with. What exactly is the point of "legalizing software patents" if software itself cannot be patented?

I am not asking for software to be patentable, far from it, but I fail to see the need for this entire exercise if the end result will be patent rules that are substantially similar to the current rules with more complicated language.

It is good to see that at least one MEP understands that no matter how persuasive the language, patent applicants will attempt to find ways to patent the supposedly unpatentable. "Systems" and "processes" in a patent will cover such obvious ideas as one click purchasing and on-line auctions. If anything, this entire directive has done nothing but muddy the waters about what is and what is not patentable, something patent inspectors and the public do not want or need.

For one thing it's not a non issue to them by Ricin · 2003-09-23 11:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

There *is* discussion. There *is* a stir up. There *are* delays. It hasn't been passed as, err, suggested by a certain lobby, without any debate.

If all that matters is the mere glorious victory, well, then find a cave and have your victory there. It's not going to happen. A small win is a win even if it only means less of a loss.

So perhaps we can finally be a little positive about this. OSS has a lobby. It is being heard. More importantly it's being listened to and more people seem to be understanding what's at stake. That's quite something.

Re:For one thing it's not a non issue to them by Ricin · 2003-09-23 13:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

I understand how you feel, I never said we should be satisfied with it as is (or rather as it's going to be).

But you never win in big leaps. At least normal people don't. And they're at their best when being pushed around. Frankly, that's where my hope is. Not at short term all-or-nothing thinking.

I'm talking about that there are turning points (which are always small otherwise it would be shove rather than turn) and that they shouldn't be overlooked nor deemed insignificant. Especially when the alternative is what?

I am *very* well aware of what's at stake but are you pulling out a gun yet? Neither am I so we're gonna have to make do with what we *can* do. And certainly the OSS voice is being considered a force to reckon with by now.

Sure many still don't have a clue. And diversity within the OSS community all to often leads to unneeded flamefests. No one's perfect. And expectations should be accordingly. A people thing will have a people signature. Nothing wrong with that.

For one thing, the OSS community should preach Humanity. That includes not being able to turn around a massive and increasingly repressive force easily. That includes a community developer fucking off because he's having a hard time privately, it includes people making human errors. It's not "get victory fast" by nature and that should be accepted both personally and more generally IMHO.

In other, related news... by Pope+Raymond+Lama · 2003-09-23 11:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

There was supposed to be a presentation of Free Software at Sao Paulo's congress tomorrow - Sao Paulo being the richest and most populated state in Brazil.

I just got an e-mail from an entity that was responsible for part of the presentation taliking of a last minute change: instead of presentation there will be a debate, and the people invited to debate are, instead of free software advocates were experimented proprietary software advocates.

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-><- no .sig is good sig.

Balance of power - State vs People ( go EU ! ) by SlashingComments · 2003-09-23 11:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is very interesting and I am following the story for last few weeks.

I never realized that so many sites could be / would be affected and will join the protest against this.

I would not have been aware of this unless there is this thing called INTERENET and EU people contributed a major portion of GPL Software.

If this works out, then, it will show that the "Europe" is still probably the place where people have the voice and can make a difference.

Balance of power between state and people is getting one sided in US--unfortunately. Before the IRAQ war more than 40% of the people in US actually thought that there is a connection between IRAQ/WMD/Terrorist etc. etc. Govt. is too strong compared to the people at this point to pull this and still stay in power.

(I supported the war anyway--this type of dictators need beating--well so is Pakistan/North Korea but that's another story).

So, congratulations EU people--you did well.

P.S.

Probably does not make much sense here, but, If you just happen to visit a bookstore, pick up the last issue of Foreign Policy ... read and get depressed.

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- People who believe other people have no right to live, got no right to live ...

To all native speakers: by GeekDork · 2003-09-23 11:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

For Antonio MUSSA (I), who spoke on behalf of the UEN group, "computers are the backbone of development in all countries of the world and innovation is predicted through patentability".

Is it just me or is the "innovation/patentability" part not making sense at all? Is this something like "war is predicted through declarability" or more like "rain is predicted through cheese"??

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Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.

Mod down by alext · 2003-09-23 11:44 · Score: 4, Informative

Arlene McCarthy proposed this legislation and is responsible for drafting it. She cannot in any sense be described as taking an anti-patent position. On this basis, the "uninformed opinion" award goes to the parent.

watched it live by rjkm · 2003-09-23 11:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

Somebody in the Linux DVB group was so kind to point out yesterday that there is a TV channel with live feeds of such discussions on http://europa.eu.int/comm/ebs/reception_en.html.

I watched the discussion on software patents this morning. I have to say that without knowing the real backgrounds you could really fall for the arguments of the proponents. No, they do not want laws like the US, they want to restrict software patents. I don't know how they can keep straight faces saying that. Luckily, some other speakers did not fail to mention that software patents are actually against the law and the new proposal would legalize those patents. Restrictions to the new law (like those discussed on Slashdot yesterday) are not needed. Simply do not pass the new law and enforce the existing ones.

The so-called harrassments by citizens also were described quite differently depending on the side the speaker was on. The speakers for patents pretended to be offended by such wild actions.
The speakers against rather described them as reasonable concerns by middle sized businesses who fear for their survival.

"Linus aeh Linux" was also mentioned. But one speaker talked about "Unix, which is free"?! Hmmm, let's not let Darl hear about this.

Publicise this BS by Unregistered · 2003-09-23 11:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual."

When election time pass this around to the candite of your choice running against the reps that said this. I'm sure the opposition would be happy to have those quotes.

Re:Bullied and harrased by penguin7of9 · 2003-09-23 12:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't know, but here is my guess. She probably got a lot of angry phone calls, to the point that other calls weren't getting through. Perhaps people also figured out her home telephone number and called her there.

However, I think whatever happened, as long as it was legal and didn't involve threats, that's something that an MEP should put up with without whining about it or calling it "harassment". If McCarthy had received such a response at something, oh, on some directive on child pornography or retirement benefits, I suspect she would not have considered it harassment but mainstream, widespread outrage. If you look at McCarthy's web site, you'll see that this issue isn't featured there prominently (in fact, I didn't see any reference to it at all on the web site).

MEPs need to come to understand that this is something that geeks and technologists are genuinely outraged over. It is something that matters to a lot of people, and it is something they need to take very seriously.

Of course, people trying to contact them should also realize that MEPs still just don't quite get it and perhaps adjust their behavior accordingly.

works out better here in the US... by commodoresloat · 2003-09-23 12:41 · Score: 2, Funny

10. Gain US citizenship

20. Move to California and become body-building movie star

30. Run for governor without even bothering to wait until the last one's term is up

40. PROPHET!!!

Re:Canada and software patents by cdn-programmer · 2003-09-23 17:47 · Score: 2, Informative

The easiest way to get a software patent in Canada is to patent it in the US. Canada has a reciprocal agreement so that patents awarded in the States are apparently valid in Canada. In Canada it would not be possible to obtain the patent.

Now... that having been said I have approached my legal counsel on this issue - directly - and I have not at this point received a direct answer.

It is possible that the reason is because a court may have to make a ruling on this issue.

will of the people by alizard · 2003-09-23 19:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

NO! -- if you don't like it, fix it!

What kind of patriot turns tail and runs? I can't stand it when flag-hugging idiots spout that shitty "love it or leave it" copout.

From the evidence I've seen, a country where the decisions are made by "benevolent" multinationals is exactly the kind of place where Americans want to live. Some of the evidence of this comes from our own community.

Why don't we have a PAC capable of going head to head with "the big boys"? Because all of our high-tech millionaires, including the ones who read slashdot would rather put their money into things that give them immediate rewards instead of making the investment required to build a free country that might make it possible to build more profitable products in the future.

Democracy got sold in America to the highest bidder a generation ago. Unfortunately, the highest bidder is run by CEOs whose time horizon is whatever will increase the short-term value of his company enough to trigger his options in the next 90 days.

America is heading for the cliff, and the reaction of the average American voter is to blindly trust the mass media which says that the cliff doesn't exist and that The Man In The White House knows what he's doing and will look after our interests.

Fix it? This isn't "fighting the weather", this is fighting long-term climate change. A democracy whose citizens aren't interested in preserving democracy isn't going to stay one.

You and I can't make citizens want to think for themselves.

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Tech Public Policy stuff

Could it be Entropic ? by o'reor · 2003-09-23 19:47 · Score: 4, Informative

From the notebook :

Mrs McCarthy rejected the criticisms from small and medium sized enterprises, stating that she had received letters from SMEs calling for such legislation to be introduced. A company from the South West of England, specialising in voice recognition technology, had written to her welcoming her report.

Could it be the Cambridge-based Entropic company, specialized in speech recognition? I do not suppose that there are many SMEs specialized in that field in the South West of England.

Now here's the beef : Microsoft acquired Entropic in 1999.

So unless the SME mentionned by McCarthy was another one (which I doubt), she's probably been telling us another whopper of a lie.

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In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.

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European Parliament Clashes Over Software Patents

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