European Parliament Clashes Over Software Patents

D4C5CE writes "The European Parliament's Daily Notebook reports on the turbulent final plenary debate this morning regarding a draft Directive to legalize Software Patents (which are currently unlawful under Art.52 (2) (c) of the European Patent Convention). The Notebook quotes some truly bizarre views and arguments (which no doubt you'll take the time to point out to Members of the European Parliament before tomorrow's vote), with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual."

Comments

The citizens are coming after them with pitchfork.

[Delron Da Thugg]

"because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual." Let's see if the citizens have as much sway as the real lobbies...probably only when they come with pitchforks and torches.

Heaven forefend!

[Atario]

with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Imagine that -- contacted by (ugh) commoners. Oh, the ignominy!

Re:Heaven forefend!

[moonbender]

What are you referring to? He cited a MEP - MEPs are elected by European citizens, as far as I know. The European Commission isn't directly elected, but then, it's the executive, not the legislatory part of the European government.

Re:Heaven forefend!

[Anonymous Coward]

Symptoms: "...some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed..."
Diagnosis: results of /. effect hitting a real person, not a computer

Re:Heaven forefend!

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

He cited a MEP - MEPs are elected by European citizens, as far as I know.

Correct.

The European Commission isn't directly elected, but then, it's the executive, not the legislatory part of the European government.

Unfortunately, that's rather misleading. The European Commission are essentially appointed (though by elected governments, one hopes) whereas the European Parliament consists of directly elected MEPs. Unfortunately, we have here a rather bizarre system where the EC probably holds more real power than the EP. There are other players involved here as well, but when it comes down to it, hearing a commissioner state that some of the EP's amendments are "not acceptable to the Commission" is a fairly chilling warning that they're going to over-rule them.

Of course, given the frequently misunderstandings about what is and is not being proposed here, and the fact that idiots trying to be clever appear to be alienating the very elected representatives who needed to be convinced, this could all be for the best anyway.

Re:Heaven forefend!

[misterpies]

A quick EU primer. The EU is set up according to the classic tripartite division of power into executive, legislature and judiciary, as is found in most democratic states (including the US).

The Commission is the executive of the EU. It carries out and polices EU law. It also proposes EU legislation, but since it cannot itself pass the legislation this does not make it a legislative body. Indeed, in most democracies the bulk of legislation is proposed by the executive (including the US and UK).

The Council of Ministers and the Parliament together form the legislature. Every piece of new EU legislation proposed by the Commission must be ratified by the Council of Ministers to take effect. In many areas, the approval of the Parliament is also required. Just as in the US and UK, the legislature can amend or throw out proposed legislation.

Finally, the European Court of Justice is (predictably) the judiciary of the EU. It has the power to strike down EU legislation for being incompatible with the Treaties that created the EU, as well as ensuring that the Commission, Council of Ministers, Parliament, Member States and individuals follow EC law.

While the EU is often condemned as being undemocratic, its legislature is in essence much like the US congress. The Parliament, like the House of Representatives, is elected by the people on on a demographic basis (more populous regions get more MEPs). The Council of Ministers, like the US senate, is made up of an equal number of representatives from each member state. While members are not elected directly to the council, they are drawn from the democratically-elected governments of the member states and so are ultimately subject to democratic control.

The big gap in EU democracy is in the unelected nature of the executive, the commission. But it's unfair to blame that on the EU itself -- it was the member states who vetoed the idea of a popularly elected President of the commission at the EU constitutional convention. Why? precidely because an elected President would give the EU Commission democratic legitimacy, and therefore suck power away from individual governments. It's the same story again and again -- national governments deliberately deny the EU proper democratic accountability precisely in order that they can then denounce EU policies they disagree with as being undemocratic and so retain their own grip on power.

Interesting.

[BitterOak]

some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Interesting. So now when citizens try to express their views on upcoming legislation to elected officials, it's "harassment". Only industry reps should be allowed this privilege?

Re:Interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

READ THE ARTICLE YOU CRETINS! Only Arlene Macarthy complained of harassment for reasons that are perfectly obvious to anyone who knows ANYTHING about the situation. Who the hell is modding this shit as insightful?

Re:Interesting.

[fname]

Geeze, RTFA. Or at least search TFA. The article says,

Arlene McCarthy regrettably added that in all the years that she had been an MEP, she had not been treated in such an aggressive manner. She said she and her staff had been bullied and harassed.

Ok, apparently the submitter of the story has a much better idea of what makes the MEPs tick than the write of the real article does. I mean, she says she was harassed-- maybe there were dozens of people lobbying her about the patents while walking to her car. I don't know. But the article clearly does not state that she feels harassed because, "they are suddenly being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens." The idea that she considers lobbying by citizens to be harassment is just a BS statement thrown in as redmeat to the anti-patent Slashdot crowd. It worked.

Obviously, the writer has an agenda, which is clear based on the link for the software patents. By knowingly mis-representing and mis-stating the complaint of the MEP, he only serves to call into question his own ethics. Ya, the story submitter seems like just the type who might actually bully an MEP, because he knows he's right. Slashdot lives down to its reputation once again.

And yeah, software patents seems like a bad idea (at least as implemented in the USA). That doesn't excuse the deliberate misrepresentation of facts (or, obviously, actual harrasment) by its opponents.

Re:Interesting.

[asscroft]

It's so sad that you're calling the US brain-dead and I can't disagree. It's mind boggling. The internet and world wide media was supposed to show the rest of the world how great we are, but it's done a lot to show me how f-ed up we are.

Just today on Fox News Oreilly had a big thing comparing America's teen pregnancy and STD rated to Europes, and then comparing America's Abstinence as the only option approach versus Europes Libertine sex-ed approach. We have four times the pregnancy rate as France and 12 times the ghonnorhea rate as Denmark. F-in Amsterdam where prostitution is legal, and there are more STD cases per 100000 here. WTF? Something isn't working.

Same holds true for binge drinking rates at college and underage drinking rates in the US versus alchohol use and abuse in europe. Suprisingly, toleration of alchohol creates a healthier mentality versus abolition (for those under 21). Exact same issue as sex.

The same holds true for Marijuana use/abuse. Not to mention the waste of money the war on Marijuana is.

Software Patents aren't an idealogy problem like these. They are instead a business vs. consumer problem. Yet, the business vs. consumer stance of europe makes so much more sense than America's sell-out policies.

I'm so disappointed in this puritanical corporate-sell out country. ( I know, if you don't like it, leave). Well maybe I will. I'll live where I'm free to code without fear of the DMCA and where I'm free to read without the government looking up my library records and where my children will get education and we'll all get health care and where my neighbor can smoke a J and it's no big deal because it really isn't a big deal and all that drug war money is instead spent to make life better. Imagine a land where you're free to tinker, and where we're brave enough to allow personal choices. Hmm, how ironic, home of the free and the brave. That should be HERE. That should describe America.

oh well. maybe someday.

Re:Interesting.

[Wolfbone]

"Software Patents aren't an idealogy problem like these. They are instead a business vs. consumer problem. Yet, the business vs. consumer stance of europe makes so much more sense than America's sell-out policies."

Actually old bean, at least from where I stand, it is indeed a matter of ideology - the ideology of free speech, freedom to engage in the arts and sciences, freedom to communicate ideas and culture, freedom of thought.

It has been a long time since the failure of your great compatriot, Phil Salin and others to prevent the tragedy of ideas patenting in the U.S. and we Europeans have had the opportunity to prepare for this inevitable onslaught on our fundamental human rights. Yet it looks likely that the forces arrayed against us will prevail anyway.

I call them 'ideas patents' because that is what they really are - I am not primarily a software developer or a businessman but a mathematician and I see software patents from a rather different perspective than has been customary in the 'debates' in the E.U. Parliament. Ever since I first came across the abominations that are the RSA patent and the DHT transform patent and others like them I have become more and more disgusted and horrified at the level of intellect displayed by those charged with the responsibility of formulating and enacting laws on my behalf.

Every debate has centred on the economic consequences of patenting with no attention whatsoever paid to the rights of which I speak. Of course you'd think I needn't worry when a quarter of a million people (mostly programmers) signed a petition against software patents and an organization representing half a million European S.M.Es stated their opposition to them too. So it must be obvious to the MEPs that there isn't even an economic case to be made for patenting software - right?

Wrong! Unfortunately we have to contend with a level of disingenuity, stupidity or underhand venality - I don't know which - capable of making statements like this:

"With regards to calls for abolishing, within the EU, all patents on computer-implemented inventions, EU companies would be at a severe disadvantage in the global market place if they were not able to apply for a patent over their invention."

(From Arlene McCarthy's website). Even a child would laugh at such a cretinous non sequitur - not so your average MEP.

Re:Interesting.

[aastanna]

You just described Canada

I was thinking the exact same thing, but I wonder how many people won't know that the bit about bears and coyotes roaming the cities is a joke.

Also, I'd like to throw in the obligitory comments about being able to walk down the streat and not get shot, and being able to visit other countries with your flag sewn on your backpack and not get shot...and...just generally not get shot.

Read the text!

[TwistedSquare]

regarding a draft Directive to legalize Software Patents

Most of the speakers emphasised that this was not about legalising software patents, and the impression from the linked article is that over half of the speakers understood what the debate was about and were against software patents.

Surely this is a good sign from the European Parliament?

you gotta love the European Parliament...

[The Lynxpro]

If I were an EU citizen, I'd certainly run for office. How can you not win a constituency when less than 10% of people turn out for the voting?

10. Gain EU Citizenship through the liberal citizenry laws in the Republic of Ireland.

20. Move to an EU country, err, excuse me, "Member State."

30. Run for the EU Parliament. Have 2 people vote for me and I win my seat!

40. PROFIT!!!

Re:you gotta love the European Parliament...

[ahillen]

Which EU *Member State* do you live in? If I am to believe what the Financial Times reports, the turnout for EU Parliament elections in the U.K. are frequently at or below the 10% threshhold. I would also imagine that in other EU Member States that have a low regard for the Eurocracy also poll quite low as well (Sweden perhaps?)...

Why dont you just inform yoursel before just writing some wild guesses and thus givin a wrong impression? A simple Google search ("europarl European Elections") gives you as 4th link the UK office of the european parlament with information on the election turnout (http://www.europarl.org.uk/guide/textonly/Gelectt x.htm#facts) (please not the word facts at the end... ;) ).

To quote some numbers:
UK turnout has been between 24% and 36% in the last 5 elections, which is not at or below the 10% threshhold.
Sweden had a turnout of 41.6% and 38.3% in the 2 elections it took part.
Denmark had between 46.1% and 52.9%.
Belgium had aturnout alway >=90%.
EU average had been between 49.4% and 63%.
Unfortunately there is a negative trend, so in 20 years your statement might become true (which is especially sad because the EU parlament becomes more and more important...)

if France and Germany are not forced to meet their treaty obligations...

As a German I can say that at least the fact that Germany is breaking the stability pact for the second year in a row is not due to unwillingness, but due to inaptitude

Open letter from SuSE

[FonkiE]

SuSE wrote an open letter [german] today. Translation is here.
They are of course against software patents...

Boo hoo hoo

[Esion Modnar]

MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual.

Apparently they're not used to actually representing their constituents, as opposed to just their industry lobbyists.

Re:Boo hoo hoo

[nsample]

This is complete crap. I'm a Linux user, not a fanboy, so maybe that's why I read the article and can see it for what it was.

It was the European People's Party (aka, "Christian Democrats") that had some WAY over-zealous advocates harassing MPEs. Yes, that's an accurate word, "harassing." I believe it's accurate because of you read the article (and the poster clearly didn't), the EPP rep. APOLOGIZED for the extreme behavior of its zealots.

Joachim WUERMELING (D), for the EPP-ED group, broadly supported the rapporteur, and he alluded to the technical and legal difficulties surrounding the issue. He regretted the sometimes personal and irrational lobbying that had taken place.

He apologized because they were out of control. Showing up at an MPEs residence and hurling insults at them on their front door step in the name of OSS (or whatever) isn't "lobbying." It's harassment. Plain and simple.

Arlene McCarthy regrettably added that in all the years that she had been an MEP, she had not been treated in such an aggressive manner. She said she and her staff had been bullied and harassed.

And they were bullied. Hurling invectives in the name of OSS is still rude and over the top. Contrary to what /. readers believe, acting like an idiot isn't restricted to the folks from Redmond...

Malcolm Harbour MEP

[alext]

Malcolm HARBOUR (EPP-ED, West Midlands) stated that patents played an indispensable role in making the EU the most dynamic knowledge based economy in the world. Patents, he said, help to stimulate investment and encourage invention. Protecting genuine invention and creativity would help business to develop products that people want to buy.

Needless to say, this guy has a page to himself on the FFII site.

My impression from this (admittedly brief) note is that even the most aged and out-of-touch members of the (British) House of Lords would have managed a more coherent debate on this. Still, it's not gone all the megacorps' way.

Just look at the U.S.

[Ikeya]

I mean, software patents work so great over here with no problems at all! They should just model their system after the U.S.!

At least one MEP seems to understand

[Hamster Lover]

From the notebook article:

"Neil MacCORMICK (Greens/EFA, Scotland) warned against possible "leakage" from genuine protection of computer implemented inventions to companies being able to patent computer software. He stated that the present system, where genuine inventions are patentable and software is protected by copyright worked well. The responsibility, he underlined, lay with the Commission to find a balance between over and under protection for inventions."

This is exactly the problem with the directive to begin with. What exactly is the point of "legalizing software patents" if software itself cannot be patented?

I am not asking for software to be patentable, far from it, but I fail to see the need for this entire exercise if the end result will be patent rules that are substantially similar to the current rules with more complicated language.

It is good to see that at least one MEP understands that no matter how persuasive the language, patent applicants will attempt to find ways to patent the supposedly unpatentable. "Systems" and "processes" in a patent will cover such obvious ideas as one click purchasing and on-line auctions. If anything, this entire directive has done nothing but muddy the waters about what is and what is not patentable, something patent inspectors and the public do not want or need.

For one thing it's not a non issue to them

[Ricin]

There *is* discussion. There *is* a stir up. There *are* delays. It hasn't been passed as, err, suggested by a certain lobby, without any debate.

If all that matters is the mere glorious victory, well, then find a cave and have your victory there. It's not going to happen. A small win is a win even if it only means less of a loss.

So perhaps we can finally be a little positive about this. OSS has a lobby. It is being heard. More importantly it's being listened to and more people seem to be understanding what's at stake. That's quite something.

Balance of power - State vs People ( go EU ! )

[SlashingComments]

This is very interesting and I am following the story for last few weeks.

I never realized that so many sites could be / would be affected and will join the protest against this.

I would not have been aware of this unless there is this thing called INTERENET and EU people contributed a major portion of GPL Software.

If this works out, then, it will show that the "Europe" is still probably the place where people have the voice and can make a difference.

Balance of power between state and people is getting one sided in US--unfortunately. Before the IRAQ war more than 40% of the people in US actually thought that there is a connection between IRAQ/WMD/Terrorist etc. etc. Govt. is too strong compared to the people at this point to pull this and still stay in power.

(I supported the war anyway--this type of dictators need beating--well so is Pakistan/North Korea but that's another story).

So, congratulations EU people--you did well.

P.S.

Probably does not make much sense here, but, If you just happen to visit a bookstore, pick up the last issue of Foreign Policy ... read and get depressed.

Mod down

[alext]

Arlene McCarthy proposed this legislation and is responsible for drafting it. She cannot in any sense be described as taking an anti-patent position. On this basis, the "uninformed opinion" award goes to the parent.

watched it live

[rjkm]

Somebody in the Linux DVB group was so kind to point out yesterday that there is a TV channel with live feeds of such discussions on http://europa.eu.int/comm/ebs/reception_en.html.

I watched the discussion on software patents this morning. I have to say that without knowing the real backgrounds you could really fall for the arguments of the proponents. No, they do not want laws like the US, they want to restrict software patents. I don't know how they can keep straight faces saying that. Luckily, some other speakers did not fail to mention that software patents are actually against the law and the new proposal would legalize those patents. Restrictions to the new law (like those discussed on Slashdot yesterday) are not needed. Simply do not pass the new law and enforce the existing ones.

The so-called harrassments by citizens also were described quite differently depending on the side the speaker was on. The speakers for patents pretended to be offended by such wild actions.
The speakers against rather described them as reasonable concerns by middle sized businesses who fear for their survival.

"Linus aeh Linux" was also mentioned. But one speaker talked about "Unix, which is free"?! Hmmm, let's not let Darl hear about this.

Publicise this BS

[Unregistered]

with some MEPs even claiming to feel harassed because they are suddenly also being lobbied by numerous concerned citizens, rather than solely by industry representatives as usual."


When election time pass this around to the candite of your choice running against the reps that said this. I'm sure the opposition would be happy to have those quotes.

Re:Could be worse...

[\/\/]

It's supposed to be confusing. Yes, to the unsuspecting computer guy (and MP!) it reads like pure software patents should not be allowed. What it means in reality, you can read on FFII's web site.

Especially read 4. How CEC/JURI ensure Unlimited Patentability: Some Sample Provisions from their Directive Proposal for a translation into real English: For a patent laywer, the term "computer-implemented inventions" means that everything that potentially runs on a computer (like, Software) can now be patented! Compare this to the existing law, which explicitly forbids pure software patents, yet the EPO (European Patent Office) granted ~30,000 software patents, from one-click shopping over email archiving to progress bars (so much for the "don't extend current practice" bit).

What it would mean for Linux et al. if this practice will be officially sanctioned we all know...

Re:Could be worse...

[rhysweatherley]

In fact, most of the stuff I read was simply clarifying existing statements that "computer-implemented inventions may be patented" (not software itself, but inventions that incorporate a software component), adding additional clarification on when it would not be appropriate to consider pure software or business methods "computer-implemented inventions".

And herein lies the slippery slope. The current version makes it illegal to patent software on its own, but not software used as one component in some otherwise physical product. The standard example given, regurgitated by some of the MEP's in the referenced article, is that of mobile phones.

However, the mobile phone argument shows exactly why this is still a bad law. Mobile phones these days are essentially "software plus an antenna". So what happens when we allow people to patent "algorithm X plus an antenna"?

What we get is this: some open source programmer writes algorithm X, and deploys it in a usual fashion. Some patent miscreant then jumps up and says "hey, you're running algorithm X on a laptop with a wireless network card! You're infringing my patent and owe me royalties!".

No, the current "clarifications" are no good. Software patenting must be abolished completely, in all of its forms. If the physical device does not have some unique and novel feature of its own, sans software, then the device should not be patentable. Period.

Could it be Entropic ?

[o'reor]

From the notebook :

Mrs McCarthy rejected the criticisms from small and medium sized enterprises, stating that she had received letters from SMEs calling for such legislation to be introduced. A company from the South West of England, specialising in voice recognition technology, had written to her welcoming her report.

Could it be the Cambridge-based Entropic company, specialized in speech recognition? I do not suppose that there are many SMEs specialized in that field in the South West of England.

Now here's the beef : Microsoft acquired Entropic in 1999.

So unless the SME mentionned by McCarthy was another one (which I doubt), she's probably been telling us another whopper of a lie.