iRiver Announces A New Ogg/MP3 Player

An anonymous reader writes "CD Freaks and Mobile mag are reporting that iRiver has unveiled a new Ogg-capable mp3 player. Featuring 20 GB of HD space and USB 2.0 connectivity, the iHP-120 might just be the answer to the question all us Apple-fearing geeks have been asking... Although the new product has yet to show up on their website, the older model iHP-100 is similar in design but with half the storage space (10gb). New software will be released in October to update it and other players from iRiver with ogg compatibility as well."

Comments

Not necessarily a godsend

[Ignorant Aardvark]

The awesome thing about the iPod is that is a huge chunk of mobile storage that happens to have a nice LCD navigation screen and the capability to play mp3s. If this new Ogg/Mp3 Player is castrated by the industry, i.e. you can only store and delete, not download from it, then it won't stand a chance at replacing the iPod. I hate when dumb copyright-protection schemes get in the way of a good product, but it's happened before, and I'm afraid to say, it will likely happen again.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[Spikeman56]

There is only copyright protection if you use their iRiver managner software if you use it like a removable drive there is no protection

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[Sven The Space Monke]

Crippled functionality is not something to worry about with iRiver. Their design philosophy seems to be "end user experience = GOD, screw what the RIAA wants". Every flash/hard drive based player they have works as a USB drive. This one also has built-in mp3 recording off analog/optical audio in (with bit rates up to 320kbps). iRiver also has a great menu system rivaling the iPod (preference is up to the user, though). Their North American site seems to be ./'ed, but European site is working fine. Has all the same info about the same products. It's about time these guys start to get the recognition the deserve - I've been in love with them for over a year. I just wish I could afford one of these, but alas, I am but a lowly student.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[Anonymous Coward]

what the hell are you talking about? You have to download from musicmatch or imusic to play music on the ipod. I have an archos - it is a straight USB2 harddrive. I can put whatever music I want on it. It plugs into any computer with USB, no drivers or software needed. I can upload or download anything from it with no DRM. Ipod has DRM. Please put the pipe down - Ipod has a lot of great things about it, but lack of a copyright protection scheme is not one of them.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[blibbleblobble]

"here is only copyright protection if you use their iRiver managner software"

F.F.S., they had the chance to produce a rival product to the iPod, then just killed it with crippled software? What were they thinking.

I'm looking for an iPod at the moment, expencive though they are. It would have been nice to see more choice, but you just can't sell an OGG player with "protection" and expect people to buy it

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[TheCrazyFinn]

Considering that the 10GB iRiver is the same price as the 20GB iPod ($399). I don't think the normally pricey iPod is in much danger.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[ianscot]

You have to download from musicmatch or imusic to play music on the ipod.

Er, no you don't. Tons of mp3s on mine. Why do you think people bought these before the iMusic store existed, out of passing curiosity?

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[tigris]

$364 20GB iHP-120

http://www.digitallyunique.net/digitally-unique/ ih p120.html

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[TheCrazyFinn]

That's nice, considering iRiver sells the 10GB iHP-100 for $399.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[tigris]

Yeah, I'm not sure how they're managing that, or if it's just a misprice. Lowest price for the iHP-100 I've seen is $307

http://www.compuplus.com/insidepage.php3?refer=p ri cegrabber.com&id=1001355

Not too bad.

Re:Not necessarily a godsend

[TheCrazyFinn]

I suspect they'll be dropping their prices when the iHP-120 comes out. The current iPods are only a few weeks old anyways.

But it is funny to see all the folks complaining that the iPod is too pricey, then drooling over the more expensive iRiver.

Nice timing...

[c_oflynn]

I love the timing on the topic right before this: "Few Takers For RIAA's 'Clean Slate'".

Creepy!

[mrpuffypants]

If you 'fear' Apple then you've got a lot more problems than just finding an Ogg-enabled music player....

Re:Creepy!

[Lane.exe]

But the one button! It's just... wrong and creepy! Like incest!

Disclaimer: Mac users I'm only joking. I'm a member of the iCult too. ;-)

Re:Creepy!

[Ella the Cat]

As regards portable music playback devices, don't compare apples and ogg ranges.

Oww, my ogg-capable mp3 player!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not supposed to get jigs in it!

it's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

it's about time

Firmware update?

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

The mobile mag article said the Ogg capability was through a recent firmware update. I wonder if will be available for the older model as well?

Re:Firmware update?

[Chaltek]

Here is iRiver's schedule and detailed information regarding Ogg support for their existing players.

FLAC

[mrseigen]

Well, the Diamond/Rio ogg player that was on here earlier also had FLAC support. Would be nice for more portable players to have that now that the disks are getting huge.

Re:FLAC

[tomstdenis]

audiophiles.....

Where exactly do you use a *portable* player that is accoustically sound anyways? The bus? The subway? The streets?

Simply...must...be....a...drop...buzzword....lee t. ..slashdot....poster!

Next you will be going on about the airbags on the new JTF fighters....

Tom

Re:FLAC

[AirRock]

I dont care too much about it being accoustically sound, I use FLAC (and shn) because they are the dominant formats used for concert bootlegs. I know i could convert them to a more readily compatible format like mp3, but why not have a player that will accept it as is?

Re:FLAC

[Anonymous Coward]

My headphones works as earplugs too. Great for busses and airplanes and such. To bad I can't hear my cellphone...

Re:FLAC

[Fweeky]

Audiophiles would probably prefer MPC support; it works at bitrates more suited to portables (usually lower than an -aps MP3) while preserving quality (for that warm fuzzy feeling). It's fast to encode too, making it suitable for on-the-fly transcoding.

Re:FLAC

[mikewren420]

Where exactly do you use a *portable* player that is accoustically sound anyways? The bus? The subway? The streets?

At the office on my Bose system? Or in the park while jogging? I could load up the player with FLAC files I downloaded leagally from sites like bt.etree.org or musicfreaks.net ... it would save me from having to transcode them to ogg, anyway.

Also, noise canceling headphones have really come a long way. You should check em out. Just because you are unable to hear the difference doesn't mean others can't.

Re:FLAC

[Jon-o]

The best use for FLAC one a portable device that I know of is for musicians to make informal recordings of their concerts. I know tons of people, myself included, that like to record concerts that they do, mostly for educational purposes - you can really learn a lot from listening to a recording you've made! Unfortunately, the vast majority of people are stuck with minidisc recorders, and I need not go over the problems with them on THIS forum.

A good hard disk recorder with a good amount of storage, lossless compression, and half-decent audio, combined with simple, USB mass storage or similar transfers (USB 2 would get pretty important, I imagine) would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I don't know many machines that have an input on them! Neither the Rio Karma nor the iRiver mention input at all, other than the USB/ethernet connections.

At this point, the Neuros seems like the best bet... but I don't think the FLAC support has been released yet. All these players are extremely expensive as well. I wish I could get a pared-down version - just input, basic output, ogg and flac compression (both directions) and a simple USB mass storage connection. No need for special software or anything. An interface suitable for simple editing instead of just playlists would be great too - being able to chop out a chunk of a track or the like would be really nice. Though with such a huge amount of storage, it wouldn't be too hard to just leave it all on there.

Re:FLAC

[xmedh02]

Unfortunatelly it's not easy to have support for many codecs in portables. Their system is too embedded - 8 MB flash + 16 MB RAM is normal.. And you have to fit in whole OS, use RAM for disk caching etc.. iRiver tried very hard to support OGG on players designed without OGG in mind - see here.

Re:FLAC

[tomstdenis]

Um nobody in their right mind would say being at the concert and a recording are the same thing [at least as far as musicians go].

I don't care how good your compression is, heck store it as PCM for all I care, it won't feel the same as simply being there.

So unless you're going to get an accoustically well designed chamber and very expensive recording equipment no amount of "quality" in storage will make up for the loss that is present at a concert full of thousands of bodies [which distort the sound], etc...

Tom

Re:FLAC

[lingenfr]

The front page of the iRivernordic site lists the following information as to inputs:

Digital Optical-in/out, analogue-in/out & Mic-in
iHP-120 is packed with in and out features. Plug in an external soundsystem to the players optical or analogue sockets. With iHP-120 you know have the ability to plug-in an external mic, when you're in need of those highquality recordings.

Re:FLAC

[Anonymous Coward]

Where exactly do you use a *portable* player that is accoustically sound anyways?

Well, anywhere, of course. At your desk, in bed, in your easy chair, etc. Just because it's a portable doesn't mean it's only good for jogging - it is permissible to listen to a portable in a quiet place.

Re:FLAC

[cayenne8]

I'm in the process of ripping my entire CD collection to my media computer I'm building. I'm using FLAC for my home listening...but, for car or gym, I'll move them to mp3 since those are such a poor listening environment.

Re:FLAC

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh god. Everybody brace yourself; Tom's gone an appointed himself an audio expert now. Let's wait and see what he gets wrong next.

Re:FLAC

[Jon-o]

Man, I wish I got thousands of bodies at my concerts..

Actually, usually in the places I play (churches or small concert halls) having a few (50 or so) enhances the sound considerably, getting rid of a lot of the boominess that those sorts of locations tend to have.

Of course, you probably didn't expect me to be playing harpsichord like I do...

In any case, the higher quality storage isn't due to the impeccable recording quality that I always get, because you're right - it usually blows chunks, since I don't really know what I'm doing, and usually have one cheapo microphone to record with. However, With that much storage, I'd much rather use Flac or something and get as 'pure' a recording as I could manage for the rare occasions when it does turn out nicely. On top of that, I often end up recoding stuff I've recorded in several different bit rates, along with burning to CD, so I'd rather start out with something lossless to minimize the effects of switching bitrates.

Re:FLAC

[Anonymous Coward]

" The best use for FLAC one a portable device that I know of is for musicians to make informal recordings of their concerts."

Or you could record directly from the sound board and get a much better recording.

Re:FLAC

[tomstdenis]

At least I can read. I never said I was an "audio expert". I just said that while FLAC is nice and all the kind of use a *portable* player would get would negate the benefits. That and bootleg tapes suck.

Last time I checked the masking effects of a very loud bus or subway would very much negate any quality benefits you get from lossless encoding. And you don't have to be an expert to figure that out. You just have to be "not a moron" which you seem to have failed.

Tom

Re:FLAC

[tomstdenis]

If you don't have this thingy called a Comp-Put-Or at home to play the music in the first place then ya, that would be a good idea.

Personally I'd just find it more cost effective to route some lineout cable to the stereo then buy a totally new device which I have shove shit on.

Or even better yet is get one of those ethernet players.

Of course you'd think of this if you were as smart as I am.

Tom

Re:FLAC

[Jon-o]

If there's a sound board. I only ever do acoustic concerts, usually of 17th or 18th century music.

It's interesting that when hearing "concert", most people today seem to think of an amplified show. Seems strange to me... but then, I play the harpsichord.

rio karma too

[asv108]

As mentioned before on /., the Rio Karma is another hard drive based player with MP3, WMA, OGG, and FLAC support. I like the Karma because its smaller than the ipod, doesn't look like an ipod clone, and it has an ethernet port too. The karma will come in 20 and 40GB versions.

Re:rio karma too

[magores]

Why is this flamebait?

Seems like a straightforward review to me.

Re:rio karma too

[steveha]

The Karma has a high-speed USB 2.0 port onboard. It also has a docking station that uses Ethernet. So, the Karma itself doesn't have an Ethernet port, but can be made to work with Ethernet using the docking station.

If I can just copy my Ogg files over using standard networking (NFS, SMB, heck, even FTP) I will buy one of these. If I have to run some special jukebox thing that does a secret DRM handshake, I'll pass.

steveha

Re:rio karma too

[Raptor CK]

See, I've long learned not to care what other people think of my comments. If I get modded down, I get modded down. If I get modded up, then at least more people get to see what I think, which I always post in a simple attempt to state what's on my mind.

Now, if the moderator in question wants to believe that I'm posting flamebait, that's up to the moderator. However, anyone with a handful of hyperlinks and a calculator can figure out on their own that the iPod is smaller, in that the volume of the unit is less than that of the Rio Karma.

While it might seem that I'm new here for saying this, I'm merely attempting to get accuracy in reporting. As I said, the Karma's larger. It's also lighter. Maybe that fraction of an ounce matters to you, and if it does, then you know which MP3 player is right for you. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ethernet, OGG, and other options factor into that decision.

(Note how I still haven't mentioned if one is better than the other. I don't care, so long as the facts are accurate.)

Re:rio karma too

[GreenKiwi]

FLAC?!?!? WTF for?

I'm sorry, none of these portable plays have significantly good analog stages to make lossless output worth anything. Maybe one will come out with a good digital output, but that still will need to have an external DAC.

Plus, using a lossless format really hampers the amount of music that you can store on such a device.

20gb of MP3 = 15000+ hours of music (200+ CDs avg 50min/cd)
20gb of lossless = 4000 hours of music (80+ CDs avg 50min/cd)

Why not transcode your music from your lossless format to MP3/Ogg/AAC and use that on your portable? You can even do this in batch mode at night. The other advantage is that you can transcode the files to a much lower bit rate than you might ordinarily do, since you probably won't hear the difference between 128kbps, 160kbps and 190kbps+ files, when using your headphones or when plugged into a car. This has two major benefits.

First, it gives you an extra 10-40% more space.

Second, since you are loading smaller files into memory, the devices don't have to run their power hungry hard drives by a similar amount. This can increase the length of time that you can listen to your device between recharges.

I see these two benefits far out weighing having lossless playback on a device where you won't really hear the difference.

As for those people who will comment that they get their concert bootlegs as FLAC or SHNs, and they don't want to change them? Why not? MP3s are so small? You'll be able to carry 2-3 times as many concerts with you.

Heck, with a 40 gig iPod, you could keep your entire music library.

Re:rio karma too

[Emil Brink]

I'm no MP3-geek, but an Ethernet port did sound interesting so I clicked the link in the parent. I got the impression the Ethernet port is not on the actual player, but on a docking station.

Re:rio karma too

[radish]

You do have to use an app, but there's no DRM. What it does have is an http server which will serve up a java applet to do the file transfer, so you don't need any client software install. Still, lots of users on the forums are asking for real file transfer, so it's a possibility. If nothing else, the wire format is supposed to be very easy to reverse engineer.

Re:rio karma too

[dasmegabyte]

Well, since the whole fucking reason for downloading a show in FLAC or SHN is because you want LOSSLESS compression as you don't want to lose any resolution in the audio, your argument is worthless. It's like somebody trying to buy a backhoe and you suggesting "Why not use a shovel? They're smaller." Because it doesn't do the same thing! If you want to record the exact soundwave produced by a singer on a high note, and play exactly that back into your ear, then lossless compression is your only choice. Pure digital is too big, Flac is 2 to 3 times smaller, and therefore this device fills an essential niche: it gets your Flac files to your receiver without requiring a compact disc.

I'm not sold on lossless audio (and don't really see the reason for a flawless representation of all the cracked voices and feedback of a live show recorded on some amateur's microphone), but it seems obvious that the whole Flac trading community is sold on its illusion of quality. Take a look at the accompanying text file with any live show you get on etree...it will contain the exact equipment used to record the show, including the type of digital tape and the manufacturer of the DAC and ADC. (Then, many of them convert the 48k source to 44.1, which destroys the whole process as the two do not convert cleanly).

The difference this makes on recording Trey mumbling the words to Heavy Things is probably negligible. But I respect people's right to search for musical truth. After all, I built a JL Labs 300B tube amp to listen to Ramones records.

Re:rio karma too

[li99sh79]

I'm not sold on lossless audio (and don't really see the reason for a flawless representation of all the cracked voices and feedback of a live show recorded on some amateur's microphone), but it seems obvious that the whole Flac trading community is sold on its illusion of quality. Take a look at the accompanying text file with any live show you get on etree...it will contain the exact equipment used to record the show, including the type of digital tape and the manufacturer of the DAC and ADC. (Then, many of them convert the 48k source to 44.1, which destroys the whole process as the two do not convert cleanly).

Well, I won't argue the 48 > 44.1 thing. If you plan on doing up CD audio why add the extra step? Though there are people who listen to their recordings at the higher sample/bit rate and let other people do the dither/src stuff. Me, I record 44.1 exclusively because I can't do 24 bit playback yet and it's not worth my while.

As for the quality of the recordings...well, if "soundboard" style recordings are your thing the Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds shows from this winter sound amazing, especially the north carolina shows where they taped off the side-stage monitors. And really just about any "stack" DMB tape this year is also going to sound just about as good as a commerical live release. If you're more of a stereo fan then the on-stage Steve Kimock Band stuff will be a sonic delight.

Sure, far-field recording of a rock PA by "amatuers" --I'll assume you were talking about the hobbyist tapers and not their gear, which on the whole is anything but amatuer -- can sound like ass, lord knows I've recorded enough of those. But you also can get some really good recordings if you know what you're doing and you get a bit lucky.

Correspondingly, I like having shn/flac copies of my shows because it's easier than ripping from source cd's, transfering from DAT, or loosing bits by repeated mp3 conversion. As such it would be nice if my iPod supported shn/flac just to make my life easier. I can convert shows to aac or mp3 and then copy them over, but that's an extra step, and I strive to remove the extra steps from my life.

-sam

Re:rio karma too

[Abcd1234]

Lossless recordings for live shows has nothing to do with quality. If you'd read any of the FAQs available online (for example, here), you'd discover that the reason to use lossless codecs is because, in the trading process, an audio file may go through multiple generations before reaching a given individual. For example, a concert may be recorded, compressed, then burned to a CD which is mailed to someone, which is then ripped, re-compressed, etc, etc. Yes, this is a somewhat contrived example, I know, but it DOES HAPPEN. Now, if you used a lossy codec, every time a re-encode occured, data would be lost, resulting in degradation at each generation. This does not happen when lossless codecs (such as FLAC or SHN) are used.

Re:rio karma too

[steveha]

Thanks for the info! I would like to be able to use it as a very small file server, plug and go, but as long as I can put my tunes on it from my Linux desktop, I guess I could live with needing to run a special app.

steveha

Re:rio karma too

[GreenKiwi]

. It's like somebody trying to buy a backhoe and you suggesting "Why not use a shovel? They're smaller." Because it doesn't do the same thing! If you want to record the exact soundwave produced by a singer on a high note, and play exactly that back into your ear, then lossless compression is your only choice.

No, using your analogy, it's like saying, "hey, I need to dig a hole in the garden to plant the seeds for my corn. I think that I'll use my backhoe." When the hole that you need to make could be just as easily made with a shovel, and in probably a much more effecient manner.

You have to use the right tool for the job. There is little need for playback of lossless audio if your sources aren't good enough to hear the difference. Particularly when they are grossly inadequate. "Hey, I'm listening to lossless audio while I jog." Whoopdido... who cares. Does losslessly encoded audio improve that experience? Probably not.

Now, lossless audio through a proper system (meaning a real sound card, none of this Creative resampling stuff). With a really good set of speakers and/or head phones. Now that can make a difference.

For really good sound cards, look at Lynx Studio, RME Audio, or M-Audio to name a few off the top of my head.

Pure digital is too big, Flac is 2 to 3 times smaller, and therefore this device fills an essential niche: it gets your Flac files to your receiver without requiring a compact disc

2 to 3 times smaller? Not really. 1.5-2 times smaller is more like it. Audio has too much information to compress more than that. You get about 55-65% compression. And most of that is due to the fact that left and right channels of audio tend to be relatively similar.

I'll give you that it would allow you to get your FLAC files to a receiver, just that you aren't really benefitting greatly from the files, as the devices analog output will not be as good as it needs to be.

Re:rio karma too

[hackstraw]

FLAC?!?!? WTF for?

As for those people who will comment that they get their concert bootlegs as FLAC or SHNs, and they don't want to change them? Why not? MP3s are so small? You'll be able to carry 2-3 times as many concerts with you.

I currently have about 400Gigs of flac/shn's and that is growing. I also have a very highspeed connection at work. I also have a car. I also have a nice home stereo.

With a device like this, I can store my new flacs, listen to them on my way home from work, transfer them to my home PC/reencode them to ogg and I would be a happy camper.

Re:rio karma too

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, with a 40 gig iPod, you could keep your entire music library.

Maybe you could. I personally have over 40GB of oggs, just of CDs I own, not including stuff I've downloaded.

Re:rio karma too

[Anonymous Coward]

Still, lots of users on the forums are asking for real file transfer, so it's a possibility.

Which forums? There are actually people using these? I was under the impression the Karma hadn't even been released yet???

Re:rio karma too

[Anonymous Coward]

2 to 3 times smaller? Not really. 1.5-2 times smaller is more like it

Uh, how can bigger be smaller? If a song is 3MB what does it mean to be 2 times smaller than 3MB? Now 50% (aka 0.50 x 3MB = 1.5MB) smaller makes more sense, although it still sounds awkward unlike "half the size."

Re:Ogg?

[Ignorant Aardvark]

what the f&*^#$ is ogg? Some stupid linux invention?

From their site: "Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source." In other words, it has better compression than mp3, and since it's open source, you don't have to pay licensing fees on players that decode Ogg like you would with mp3.

Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[yanestra]

Sorry, I'm a FreeBSD-on-desktop user (yes, there are some), and I'm surprised to see they only support Winodze.

Or, maybe, this time again, it means some of us will need to do some reverse-engineering of one more of those primitive tools all these player manufacturers supply...

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[Pieroxy]

Sorry, I'm a FreeBSD-on-desktop user, BSD is dying, but its spirit will live on

So, you're a spirit-on-Desktop will live on user ?

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[mindriot]

Really gets on my nerves when such gadgets don't simply act as a standard USB storage device... I mean, all you want to do is upload your music... I'm having the same kind of trouble with my digital camera (canon powershot A70). gphoto2 is not there yet, and I can only deal with it corectly using Canon's proprietary windows software. OK, if I want extra functionality, then such a software is OK. But for merely uploading/downloading data?

That also kind of reminds me of this drive bay internal USB 6-in-1 card reader I tested... USB Storage, but only worked with certain motherboards (it was sold bundled with them... but also separately).

Soo...umm, why did we have the USB Storage standard again?

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[frantzdb]

I agree. But as for the PowerShot, My G3 seems fully supported. I'd doubt the A70 is very different.

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[snillfisk]

According to their website:

Works as an External Memory
The player shows as an external harddrive directly under Explorer on your PC. No installation needed (Windows 98 needs installation).

"No installation necessary" should indicate that it works like a standard USB storage device.. Maybe someone who already has the previous unit can confirm this?

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[CvD]

I believe that most of iRiver's products which use USB use the USB mass storage protocol, so there's no problem then is there? I think they also have their own proprietory protocol which has about double the speed or so. But you are not required to use this. So yeah, iRiver products are FreeBSD compatible (assuming FreeBSD has USB mass storage supported).

Cheers,

Costyn.

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[ThogScully]

I'll just add a note that my fiance's 2.2MP PowerShot S220 does work fine with gphoto2 for me, albeit not as a USB Mass Storage Device, which is admittedly simpler. Anyway, gphoto2 isn't that hard to use once you get it working and I think KDE's kio_slave kamera or camera works with it.
-N

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[CmdrGravy]

In actual fact the iRiver devices can be formatted and used as a USB drive so you can just drag and drop you music from the hardrive to the player. This works fine for me on Linux.

Re:Only WIN98SE/ME/2000/XP?

[Drathos]

Really gets on my nerves when such gadgets don't simply act as a standard USB storage device... I mean, all you want to do is upload your music...

In that case, you have nothing to be concerned about with iRiver.

All of their USB devices (iHP, iFP, etc) have firmware available that lets them act as USB mass storage. The iFP series (I don't know for sure about the iHP) comes with the proprietary version as default because it is faster that way, but a simple firmware upgrade and you have a UMS device.

And if you only have Linux, you can use ifp-line for file uploads/downloads and firmware updates.

More details...

[Spikeman56]

This is kinda old news... it was announced like a week ago and it is on the website last time I checked... Anyway iRiver announced that they will be supporting OGG on their other players... imp-250/350, and ifp-3XX - selective format support either mp3&wma and mp3&ogg imp-400/550, and ifp-5XX - All in one format support for MP3, WMA, and OGG iHP-1XX - All in one format support for MP3, WMA, WAV and OGG PLayers ogg are not supported on... iMP-50/100/150 and iFP-1XX ~spikeman56

Re:More details...

[Doktor Memory]

-Remember Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks your an idiot-

Normally I try to avoid pointing out spelling/usage errors, but in the context of the above signature, it's a little ironic that you used "your" when you should have used "you're".

Re:More details...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your an idiot!

That's nice and all...

[mbourgon]

but how's the GUI? It can have all the cool features and abilities, but if usability sucks, you might as well not bother. It's amazing how many companies get this wrong.

Re:That's nice and all...

[Anonymous Coward]

IRiver usability rocks. I can easily bike and fiddle with the mp3-player at the same time (Once you've learned the interface).

Re:That's nice and all...

[CvD]

The GUI is excellent. I have an iMP-400, and I am very happy with it. The GUI works fine for me. It takes a little getting used to the buttons, but thats with every gadget. The menus are logically laid out and very legible. Its a lot better than GUIs on most mobile phones (most of which are horrid).

So, yeah... buy an iRiver. You won't be dissapointed.

Cheers,

Costyn.

Re:That's nice and all...

[neonsocks]

For a good review of other iRiver products, gear.ign.com reviews most of iRiver's earlier product line. They rave about the ease of use and completeness of the navigation and menu system. If their new player is anything like its predicessors, and there's no reason why they'd change a successful formula, the GUI should be the last thing people need to worry about.

In RIAA news...

[segment]

The RIAA has announced it will launch a lawsuit against the Vorbis developers who created the OGG format.

"We are shocked and awed these college kids would code something that steals from kabillionaire struggling artists and post them on the sickening little iPee's or iPods. Have you seen the name OGG. Wasn't there a ganster rap song called OGG or something. It's a disgrace." stated an RIAA Spokesdevil.

Officials at Vorbis could not be contacted, however, another company stated they will be filing a countersuit against the suit in response to the suit originally filed.

Re:In RIAA news...

[blibbleblobble]

"We are shocked that these college kids would code something that steals from kabillionaire struggling artists "

Shouldn't that be a kibibillionaire, or just tibionaire?

Excellent...

[Tyrdium]

I've been considering getting a portable music player for a while, but I've had a few problems. Flash memory players are too small capacity, and cost too much per meg. Hard drive players tend to be too large, however. The only two I've seen that are good are the iPod (too expensive), and the Zen (considering it). However, since this plays .oggs, that gives it a nice big advantage over the Zen. Also, it weighs about 2/3 what the Zen weighs... Anybody have any info on the price of the iRiver? I'm also looking at the Muvo^2, but I'm not sure what the price is... I'll have to look that up...

Re:Excellent...

[AirRock]

Rio's Karma, like memtioned above, might also be a worthwile product. Offering both USB2.0 and Ethernet, it will also support FLAC and Ogg.

Re:Excellent...

[blibbleblobble]

Did you find out how well the Zen runs with Linux synchronisation? The iPod seems to be quite well supported (GNUPod will sync files, and gtkPod as a possible front-end)

Re:Excellent...

[TheCrazyFinn]

If you can't afford an iPod, don't look at the currently pricier iRiver. While they will probably match the iPod price when the 20GB iRiver ships, their 10GB player is currently the price of the 20GB iPod ($399), while the 10GB iPod is $299.

The Zen is cheaper, but also has a shitty interface.

What!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use WMA, you insensitive clods! ~_~

Re:What!?

[vonFinkelstien]

What's with all these post ending with "You insensitive cloud(s)!"

I'm I missing something, because I don't have a TV and have no money for film going/renting?

Re:What!?

[vonFinkelstien]

I meant "clod(s)".

As cool as it sounds...

[overbyj]

with Ogg capabilities, this thing is DOA if it doesn't do anything other than store songs. The downloading capability is what sets the iPod apart from the other players. Plus, the i100 model is $400. Oy vey...for that much I am buying the industry standard, the iPod.

Re:As cool as it sounds...

[hugzz]

without OGG capabilities, ipod is DOA for me and many users who dont use mp3 and dont hace access to AAC

Re:As cool as it sounds...

[CmdrGravy]

What ? Yes it certainly stores songs, songs which you can copy onto on to it from Linux, Mac's, Windows or anything else which supports USB Mass Storage.

If you want to download stuff from the Internet then you can do that on the computer of your choice.

Personally I don't download much music because I have converted my record collection to OGGS.

This is really

[OpenSourcerer]

An ogg in the face for apple.

That's fantastic!

[Bob-o-Matic!]

Now how about a nice small flash mamory-based device priced significantly below $300?

Re:That's fantastic!

[nek]

I love mamory-based devices! I'm preferable to 36C.

Re:That's fantastic!

[Bob-o-Matic!]

Whoops! Freudian slip! Time to turn off the computer and see what the wife is doing...

I suppose I should make a habit of using the preview button.... ..............Naah!

mmmmm, mammaries!

But it doesn't support Ogg

[Jon Abbott]

This product looks great, except that it doesn't support... err, nevermind. :^)

Updating older players?

[illuminata]

I have an iRiver SlimX 350, is there any word on whether or not that or any other model for that matter will have firmware upgrades to support ogg?

Speaking of which, they really need to put their updates in something else than a Windows executable.

Re:Updating older players?

[Chaltek]

Yes, the 350 will support Ogg. Details from iRiver
However, due to its limited (8mb) flash rom you'll have to select between MP3 and Ogg support.

Re:Updating older players?

[itsme1234]

Not exactly. You have to switch between mp3+wma and mp3+ogg.

Re:Updating older players?

[Chaltek]

I know that is what the chart implies, but the text says otherwise:

The iRiver R&D team estimates that customers who use iMP-250 and 350 might be forced to make a selection between Ogg firmware and MP3 & WMA firmware.
...
The iFP-300 series would be same as the iMP-250 and 350 that require a selection between Ogg firmware and MP3 &WMA firmware.

RTFA? RTFS!

[Exiler]

"New software will be released in October to update it and other players from iRiver with ogg compatibility as well."

Um..

[Anonymous Coward]

I read the little page about it... I don't see that it says anything about oggies anywhere. =/

Re:um..

[cens0r]

If you have a zen I suggest you download and try notmad explorer from red chair software. It was good enough so I paid them $15 to get the version for my nomad IIc. It allows me to drag and drop files directly to the nomad from explorer. It also will automatically transcode my OGG files into VBR MP3 using lame as I transfer. Pretty sweet.

Very cool.

[Nucleon500]

iRiver was one of the first to work with Xiph.org, and there was something about demo boards, and some agreement, but nothing concrete for a long time. It's nice to see this come to fruition. I personally am very glad, because this is one more choice when I get a portable player for college. I have a huge Vorbis collection.

There's a Wiki list of (hopefully) all portable Vorbis players at http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware. That page has a link to some detailed information from iRiver about which of their players will support Vorbis.

Re:Very cool.

[lingenfr]

The link to the Wiki is informative. The Wiki page is not. The information is out of date and not very well organized. It would be more helpful if the information were organize along the lines of sourceforge. Describe the product (briefly) and then the state of development. The /. crowd and technofiles in general are quick to get a case of the arse about vaporware. If it is a rumor, state it is such. If they have a projected release date, list it. If not, say so. I am close to buying a Neuros although it is not exactly what I want. I think the price is fair and I want to see businesses suceed that listen to their customers. I bought a Nex II because those lying pieces of crap said it was firmware upgradeable and they gave every indication that eventually it would support Ogg. I am satisfied with the Nex II although it could be improved (traverse more than one directory deep for example). However, it really chaps me that once again with the Nex IIe they are intimating that they are going to provide Ogg support and I am pretty confident that they are not a step closer and are not really working on it. /rant.

magnatune

[potpie]

WOW- this'll be great for all those new magnatune CD's I'm going to buy, rip, and put on a cd in ogg format!

An I-Pod killer...

[mpeg4codec]

But how will it compare in price. To me, that'll be the real killer.

Re:An I-Pod killer...

[Anonymous Coward]

This 100% content free post was brought to you by mpeg4codec.
Less thought! More filling!

P.S. If you have to ask if any X will be able to compete with an Apple product on price, you're missing something. Unless X hails from the department of defence.

Re:An I-Pod killer...

[slimak]

considering that the current 10GB model is $399.99 on the iRiver site and a 20GB iPod can be had for $399 from the Apple store I think it may be hard to compete.

To really get any market share iRiver needs to be priced well under "the world's best MP3 player". The masses don't really care about support for other formats.

OGG File Format

[Kujah]

Finally a mobile player that supports the OGG Vorbis file format! I own a creative jukebox, but I don't use it that often mainly because it doesn't support ogg files (which most of my music is now encoded as) Ever since I found out about the OGG file format i've been encoding my music to it. I sensed immediately that I got better sound quality with it - and I was right. http://ekei.com/audio/ has links to various comparisons, and in general the OGG encoder handles the mid range much better than, say, lame mp3. This is great because afaik headphones don't have the greatest highs...

Re:OGG File Format

[whoopie]

Does anyone knows the price? I am waiting a long time for a oggplayer, but finally there is one.

Re:OGG File Format

[Anonymous Coward]

The iMP 550 can be had on ebay for $150.00 which has fm tuner and plays audio cds, mp3, asf, wma, and of course ogg.

Re:wow

[sl0ppy]

you really need to go on a loooong trip to listen to all the songs before you get home

yup, i plan out all the songs i listen to before leaving the house for the day.

come on, i want more space to have more choice, and to not have to change over what i'm listening to all that often. with a larger amount of space, i can have a more diverse musical selection, and choose based on the mood i'm in now, not the mood i was in while the coffee was brewing in between the shower and the brushing of teeth. :)

Re:Lets get the obvious jokes out of the way

[rolocroz]

Of course! You missed the most obvious one: But does it play...oops, never mind.

Can't believe you missed it.

An ipod killer... not!

[abelikoff]

No, it's far from being an ipod killer. Ipods are very small and trim. They sport an extremely simple yet efficient UI that doesn't overload the user with glitz. Ipod strikes the balance of elegance, efficiency, and simplicity.

The industry has been desperately trying to reinvent the Ipod for some time. Yet none of the current offerings are on par with it. The look-n-feel of the iRiver's device (based on the pictures) doesn't look to me like an iPod killer.

Ogg support is obviously a good thing (tm). Yet, this is not enough for me to position it in front of iPod - simply because iPod just does the job. Of course, one could come up with a hole sleuth of justified and unjustified improvements to the iPod model, but even without them iPod is a clear winner so far.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you havn't tried it. I prefer IRiver to IPod anytime...

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[dhoughal]

Some neat features of the iHP-series which iPod lacks:

• encoding to mp3 (up to 320k)
• internal microphone
• optical input and output
• no special sync software required. only plug that device in your usb port and work with it like an external hard drive
• copy your music files as often to as much pcs you want instead of Apple wants you to do

And now iHP features Ogg Vorbis. Please tell me: Why would one prefer iPod?

D.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[Lussarn]

But is it an Apple?

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[abelikoff]

Just as I said - one could come up with a host of "cool" features missing in iPods, but most of such features would require making the UI more complex and/or cluttered. iPod strikes the [almost] perfect balance.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[Anonymous Coward]

er .. just for the record...

I can encode in up to 320kbps mp3 or aac in iTunes or QuickTime 6.

the latest iPods have internal microphones (which aren't enabled with the current software, but third party software works ...)

agree with no optical i/o, but few people have need

I can use my iPod as a firewire drive without synch software. I regularly use it as a small firewire drive..

the music I encode myself (even using iTunes) doesn't have drm. I can move it around without restriction.

I got mine for $100 when I bought my new PowerBook.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[feldsteins]

Ogg support is obviously a good thing (tm).

Someone has to say this out loud: nobody * gives a rats behind about Ogg Vorbis.

* By "nobody" I actualy mean that only a very tiny minority of people who listen to music will a) know what it is and b) care enough about it for it to influence his/her purchase decision.

Listening to slashdot folks go on and on in discussion after discussion about it gets a little silly. It's almost as if readers here believe that the iPod would sell 10% more units if only it supported this codec. (This is of course ridiculous.) We sit around and discuss how "the industry" is reacting to Ogg, when in fact it's hard to imagine how it could be less relevant to anyone except the tiny, tiny minority of people who a) use Linux on the desktop and b) are willing and able to shell out for a portable digital music player and c) aren't just going to dual boot windows to do it. (Regarding point b one wonders how 'willing' a lot of these guys are, they way they go on about how they build their own Linux boxes for $0.79 out of junk parts from thier basement Comodore graveyard, but I digress.)

And don't even get me started on the tragically misguided "I won't participate in any music sales scheme that doesn't involve zero compression, zero copy protection" ethos.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[DWIM]

Someone has to say this out loud: nobody * gives a rats behind about Ogg Vorbis.

Every freaking time an Ogg Vorbis story gets posted on Slashdot, we get at least one comment like this one. The point, apparently, is that Vorbis is a waste of time, virtually nobody cares about it, it has no market share, so whoop-de-doo. Well, based on that kind of thinking we could have drawn the same conclusions about Linus Torvold's efforts many years ago when he first posted his new kernel.

I'll never understand the logic behind shooting down a technology in its infancy because it is in its infancy. There are reasonable arguments for preferring Vorbis over mp3. Let them try to make it succeed and the market will make the final determination. Declaring it is dead before it truly is strikes me more as a fear-induced comment than anything.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[Anonymous Coward]

You certainly have a myopic viewpoint. Do you let your Mac eat crackers in bed?

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[feldsteins]

I'm not "declaring it dead" I'm merely pointing out the large disconnect between it's actual, present importance as opposed to the importance ascribed to it by readers of slashdot.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[DWIM]

I'm merely pointing out the large disconnect between it's actual, present importance as opposed to the importance ascribed to it by readers of slashdot.

Clarification noted. But, it does leave me wondering why the moderators thought your initial comment was "Interesting". Your sentiment can be applied to most bleeding-edge technology. Early adoptors pay attention to that stuff far, far sooner than the masses. I would wager that Slashdot has a rather large group of early adoptors wrt technology, thus the importance they ascribe to things like this.

Re:An ipod killer... not!

[tigris]

yup, all these features are why I'm getting the new iHP instead of an iPod. Plus the iHP also offers a radio.

Only thing better would be an ethernet port somewhere on the device or the dock, but even as is, the iHP-120 is still better than an iPod, at least for my needs.

just testing

[Anonymous Coward]

ase ae45g aer zadf hfnsdf afsd

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[spoco2]

Bloody hell, it's different alright. It looks different, it has a remote control doovy with a screen on the headphone band, it has a different UI... IT'S DIFFERENT!
Apple didn't create everything for god's sake, there were hard-drive based MP3 players around before the iPod...
let me refresh your memory

Why do so many people assume...

[DerProfi]

...that Apple is the only company on the planet capable of delivering on a minimally crippled digital audio player?

I call shenanigans on that! :)

Seriously, iRiver has a history of producing great MP3 gear and I'm going to have faith in their ability to do this right. Do you think it's a coincidence that they describe the predecessor to this model as a "Portable Storage Device & Multi-Codec Juke Box"?

Yet another OGG player...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/11/183025 2&mode=thread&tid=137&tid=141&tid= 188

Ring a bell?

No firewire.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff said. I'll stick with my iPod.

Re:Lets get the obvious jokes out of the way

[Anonymous Coward]

somebody didn't miss it. you did

#7091098

No wonder...

[Kjella]

Look at the cost of filling up these HD-based players with legally purchased music, say 20gb of AAC from iTMS (bad example for this player, but anyway). I'm quite sure that some of the biggest purchasers of legal music are also some of the biggest pirates - simply because they have a profound interest for music, but not that kind of money, even if they are willing to pay for music. Rank in order from biggest to smallest offender:

1. Person downloading 20gb of pirated music, 0gb legal.
2. Person downloading 15gb of pirated music, 5gb legal.
3. Person downloading 10gb of pirated music, 0gb legal.

Legally, it's 1-2-3. Morally, I'd disagree with that order. And I doubt #2 is willing to sign any "amnesty", even if he's a good customer of the recording companies. In fact, by any standard I see among my friends, I'd say he'd be a premium customer. Only the RIAA play it blind - they only see what's being pirated, and so they are just as likely to drive him into the ground as the other two.

The RIAA can dream about their magic customer #4, that never pirates anything and purchases everything legally. Judging by friends, family, class mates, co-workers and people I meet on the Internet, they'll be very few. Even old dogs seem to be learning new tricks. Strike down all but those and you'll also strike down the majority of the market. And the market doesn't like being treated like criminals - even if they by the letter of the law are.

Kjella

P.S. Regrading the use of the word criminal, since the US has defined "sharing for getting other works in return" as commercial gain, I think most sharing would fall under criminal statutes, not civil. The difference lies more in evidence, compuer logs don't establish who was in front of the machine. While it's probably enough for a civil case, I doubt it'd hold in a criminal case...

Re:No wonder...

[klevin]

I own an Archos Jukebox Recorder, 20GB or storage. 13GB of music on it (high quality VBR). All of it from CD's I own [1]. Most of them were bought while I was in college, which I paid for myself (part time job during the school year, full time on summers). My music collection was purchased almost exclusively via cdconnection.com, usually 8+ discs at a time (I'd save my money up, buy a bunch of CDs and repeat).

Don't know how representative that is, but there it is.

[1] Just ran `find /mnt/archos1/ -name "01*mp3" | wc -l`, comes up with 169 CDs.

Re:No wonder...

[ErroneousBee]

I suppose I'd be thier perfect #4 customer, I have never downloaded any rips, but I have ripped my own for playing on my home/work PCs.

I also buy about 1 CD a month now, down from 1/week in the mid 90's. Thats mostly cos theres hardly any decent new music coming out these days, and even when a good new band comes along, its so hard to tell whether its a 'White Stripes' or just another 'Busted'.

Re:No wonder...

[radish]

Errmmm I'm only half way through ripping my CD collection to Vorbis and I'm at 30gb+ already. Downloaded mp3s add up to something like 0.5gb (and half of those I've ended up buying on CD). So maybe I'm the elusive #4, whatever, I need a bigger hard disk :)

Re:No wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

you maroon.. you forgot the #4

4. 0gb pirated, 60gb legal

Not everyone downloads music, some of us actually supprot the artists. Unfortunately it benefits the RIAA, but it's the devil's price of having what you want. Slowly but surely as the artists get more money, they may be ABLE to financialy separate themselves from the RIAA. Most can't afford to do that.

Maybe /. readers who have never written music in their life, and who have never tried to release it without the RIAA can STFU and RTFM on music for a change, instead of trying to be first in line to click on "PREVIEW" and "SUBMIT".

geez you people. I'm an anonymous coward, because really, what's the point of logging in to yet another website? YAY points? hahaha..

Re:No wonder...

[WNight]

> What's the point of logging in?

Seeing replies to your posts. One of the reason that many people ignore ACs is that you usually can't have a conversation with them. Logged in users get told about replies and get a link to view them directly.

As for the music, I've got a lot of my own rips, but I've also downloaded everything I had on tape or record. Technically it's a violation but that's something I don't feel hurts anyone. I paid for the song, I'm listening to the song.

Fear Apple?

[vonFinkelstien]

If you are a worshiper of Apple and have a proper fear of the Apple god, then why would you want an MP3 player that has not been touched by the hand of god?

From Wester's 3rd New International Dictionary:
fear 4. to have a reverential awe of (e.g., fear of God; God fearing)

Or did you mean afraid of Apple?

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[alienw]

Just for the record, there were hard disk players YEARS before apple came out with their overpriced candy-coated models. What is wrong with you fucked-up apple-cock-sucking zealots?

Dammit, must you hyperlink every word??

[Anonymous Coward]

Which one of those links shows us the goods? Do we really need a link to ogg vorbis??

recording?

[ksheff]

The product web page mentions that it can do realtime mp3 encoding. Can it record to WAVs too? I would be interested in something like that.

Re:recording?

[Chaltek]

Yes it can record WAV files, via the optical input or external microphone jack. Check the CD-Freaks article for the official product description blurb.

What is missing, and would be really great, is for the device too encode OGG files as well!

Apple is dying..bsd is dying

[minus_273]

oh wait i use a mac... and love it :)

Re:Ogg?

[beamso]

In other words, it has better compression than mp3, and since it's open source, you don't have to pay licensing fees on players that decode Ogg like you would with mp3.

How many players will play Ogg and not mp3 I wonder. Throws that argument right out the window.

um..

[gobblez]

$400 just for the 10gb version?! and i thought the ipod was expensive. i don't want to think about what the 20gb version with ogg will cost. it does look nice though...

i had the nomad jukebox zen 20gb, it was alright, i had like 4000 songs on there with almost perfect id3 tags, took me weeks, then my roomate steals it when he moves out, sigh. wouldn't work as an external drive like they said, you had to use the software that takes like 20 minutes to install to transfer files.

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[dspisak]

You mean like the original Creative Nomad Jukebox?

I owned one, it was not bad. But its battery life could have been better and its interface was for shit. Oh yeah and loading 10GB over USB1 sucked dog balls.

But now I own a 10GB iPod and it just kicks a whole hell of a lot more ass then that Creative one did.

Granted the newer stuff out there is a lot better now but even so when I compare them against my iPod I feel like they are still missing feature(s).

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[Anonymous Coward]

then go buy one and floss ass mouth

Yeah, but...

[sessamoid]

A new portable digital music player from iRiver is cool and all, but can it play ogg.... wait... never mind.

Re:Yeah, but...

[Technician]

A new portable digital music player from iRiver is cool and all, but can it play ogg.... wait... never mind.


Unfortunately the line in will only real time encode to MP3's. Rats.... I hope it does a reasonable job encoding. Getting church programs for distrubition on CD's just got simpler. The device shows up on USB like an external drive.. Nice! Archos has a competitor.

maybe in the next upgrade they will have an OGG encoder....

Found Specs

[Max Romantschuk]

The iRiver Nordic site carries the specs.

MODS ON CRACK

[Anonymous Coward]

That's about as funny as a boiled potato.

Korean website

[Barnoid]

The iHP-120 is already on the Korean website (iRiver is a Korean company),
here is the direct link.

I guess most of you won't be able to read the text, but you can get most of the information by looking at pictures ;-)

Re:Korean website

[daemonsito]

Did you guys noticed that on the korean site, they mention "Optical in, Optical Out"?

Umm...

[Danse]

Actually, the downloading isn't the illegal part. If they're making those songs available for downloading by others, that's where they'll get in trouble.

Sounds pretty damn cool

[Hooded One]

The price is a bit of a turnoff, but it may be worth it. A good ogg player is just what I was waiting for to get started on phasing out mp3s in my collection.

There is one thing I wonder about though: what type of control is there for scrolling through playlists, as opposed to going a track at a time? The Zen has it's thumbwheel, the iPod has the doughnut thing, but I can't find anything along those lines on any pictures of the iRiver that I've seen. I'm hoping it's just the angle of the pictures.

Re:Sounds pretty damn cool

[V7iktor]

All iRiver flash and HDD based players have a very well designed joystick that will allow you to do almost all of your navigating, track switching and stuff with your thumb only.
Very simple and great in practice since there are so many options/browsing to do on the player (large LCD is also very nice).

The only downside is because of all the heavy usage, let's face it, how long can the little joystick last? So be carefull with it.

my current iRiver

[Animekiksazz]

what about the update I was promised for my iRiver iMP-350 SlimX... I still don't see one that lets me play ogg.

Re:my current iRiver

[Anonymous Coward]

You might very well have hope anyway with your iMP-350, see: iRiver's announcement

Re:my current iRiver

[Animekiksazz]

Thanks, I stopped looking at the iRiver site a while ago. That's definately something I look forward to. Who cares if I have to choose between WMA and OGG it's a no brainer.

Questions and Answers

[antic]

That's all very well, but what about the question the rest of us have for the apple-fearing geeks? What's so terrifying about a portion of fruit? Who's going to answer that, eh?

The Nordic Site...

[tgrasl]

...has got the player on it:

http://www.irivernordic.com/products.php?pid=21

Good to see some competition

[ElGanzoLoco]

iPod: 61 x 104 x 15,8 mm @ 158 g
iRiver: 60 x 105x 19 mm @ 160g

Sooo, at last someone else figured out that 2.5" drives were NOT the way to go (Archos anyone? ;) And that LCD remote looks sweet too...

Though, from the picture, the navigation menu looks horrible. What is this "/root/030314/" stuff anyway? Am I supposed to type "pwd && ls" each time I want to see an album, or what?
Maybe they're trying to appeal to geeks here (or they don't want to bother writing software), but hey, the Archos had a similar folder-based navigation and it *sucked cock*.

Re:Good to see some competition

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the folder structure of your disk. The navigation is a lot like explorer and VERY nice to use.

Re:Good to see some competition

[Keeper]

The LCD remote is a pretty standard feature in iRiver products (from what I can tell anyway), and is VERY handy. Allows you to keep the bulky part of the player packed away in your backpack (or luggage, or carryone) while being able to actually use the unit. Also keeps the main part of the unit smaller for when portability is more important than having an lcd screen.

As for the navigation system, if it works anything like the cd-based iRiver mp350 (an EXCELLENT cd based mp3 player; I *love* mine), the stucture is based on how you place files & folders on the unit. "Root" is the name of the folder without a directory, with everything else inheriting the folder names you give them. The navigation of the directories is very intuitive, especially considering the lack of buttons available.

On my particular player, there are 3 fwd/back/in buttons. One of those buttons is used to move forward/backward through tracks. Press it in for a few seconds. You get a file list of the current directory. Use the fwd/back buttons to move through the list (hold fwd/back to move quickly instead of one song at a time). To select a song, or look at another directory, press in again. To back out a directory level, hold that button in for a few seconds.

This sounds complicated, but it is actually quite simple in practice.

(what do the other two do? One controls fast forward/reverse/tuner vs cd, the other controls volume/settings; there are also two "normal" buttons for play/pause + stop).

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not in the Apple club.

Go back to your Tiger PC.

Loser.

I'll just wait for the firmware...

[jCaT]

I just bought an iriver 395t a couple weeks ago, and I love it. It's their top of the line flash player, and as far as I know the only one out there that actually comes with 512mb of memory installed. It has a pretty damn good FM tuner, can record (and encode) at up to 320kbit, and is about the size of a pack of gum.

Anyway, back to my original point... iriver releases firmware updates on a fairly regular basis, so it's probably only a matter of time before all of their players will have ogg support.

there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRiver

[David Jao]

Right now, not counting Linux-based PDAs and the like, the only shipping portable audio player that plays ogg vorbis files is the neuros. iRiver says their vorbis firmware will be released in October, but it is not available today. I hope that iRiver does finally actually keep to their stated release schedule this time, but the fact is that you still can't buy an iRiver today with ogg vorbis support.

The neuros has been available with vorbis support for several months. If you want something today, the neuros is pretty much your only choice. If you don't mind waiting it out, then by all means wait for iRiver or Rio.

Here's the specs and pics

[Ricin]

iHP-120

"Supports Windows 98/ME/2000/XP & Mac iHP-120, works under the biggest OS environments."

The UI looks clunky and I'd want a *NIX driver but it's good to see ogg/vorbis finally get into HW products.

Re:Here's the specs and pics

[hanssprudel]

That site also says (translating from Swedish):

"The player appears as an external harddisk in Explorer on your PC. No installation is required."

This probably means that it uses the USB mass storage protocol, which the Linux kernel supports. Since other comments have implied that you play songs by just selecting the folder where you placed them, that would imply it should work just fine under Linux at least.

Very happy with iRiver

[The Iowan]

I have the IFP-190TC and am very happy with it. To hear that iRiver will support ogg in the future is good news indeed. But I must say that so far I am very happy with iRiver. Not only does the product sound good (and even included excellent sounding Sennheiser headphones), and seem to have a nice UI, but I am happy with their web site, with the firmware upgrades, and the fact that they seem to listen to user comments and suggestions. And best of all, once I downloaded the UMS firmware upgrade, it works with Linux!

And now there's the price tag...

[abelikoff]

One more thing - iPods are expensive, but in their case the premium is paid for Apple brand, quality and reliability of the device. It looks like iRiver has either comparable or higher price structure on their devices. I don't think that the additional feature set and/or the look-n-feel justify the price level (so far the most reliable strategy in competing w/ iPod is proper pricing). I think this device will not be very popular at that price.

Could affect iPods as well

[mattgreen]

Lets just call this an educated prediction.

With the release of an integer-based Vorbis decoder (named Tremor I believe) and multiple other players adding Vorbis compatibility, perhaps Apple will be persuaded to add Ogg Vorbis in a firmware update. I'm not a Mac fanboy, but I think they are well aware of the desire for a well-designed Ogg Vorbis player. Now, if they actually do so, then Apple really has a killer player on their hands.

Manufacturers of competing players would also do well to note that the iPod's semi-PDA features as well as the ability to act as a portable HD are what make it so appealing.

Re:Could affect iPods as well

[jocknerd]

I'd love to see Ogg Vorbis support in the iPod as well, but I don't think its going to happen. Apple paid a shitload of money for the rights to mpeg-4 which AAC is based on. So they want to try and make that the standard. Steve Jobs is one hard headed SOB. He would drive the company into the ground before he would admit to making a mistake.

I'm a proud owner of an iBook and an iPod by the way .

Re:Could affect iPods as well

[Anonymous Coward]

went to a talk byJoseph Cox, Apple Computer Australia Systems Engineer (Keynote Speaker) @ auscc.org.
One question I asked him was if there were any plans to support ogg vorbis in itunes or ipod and he said that there were none.

Lex.

Price on Korean Website

[Cobol God]

Looks to me like it says W583,000 which is about 506.91 USD give or take a few cents.

Then again I dont speak/read Korean. :)

Analog inputs?

[ken-guru]

I'm a dj and I've been looking for a HD-based portable mp3-player which has analog-inputs in it. Why? I like to record live sets straight out of the mixer and nowadays few mixers have optical/digital outputs.

The IHP-100 is on paper everything I was asking except for the analog inputs. I've also looked for the Creative's Jukebox3 but it is 1) BIG, 2) Made out of plastic so no thanks. If anybody knows any other products that match my requirements (HD, analog in/out), please feel free to share.

Hopefully the IHP-120 has analog in.

Another thing. Does anybody know whether it is easy to convert analog (RCA) audio signal to optical/digital? I know there are converter boxes but I'm a bit sceptical about their quality.

Cheers,

-jari / dj ken-guru

Re:Analog inputs?

[cens0r]

I'm pretty sure that they make ADC's but I've never seen one. It's easy to find high quality DAC's, but of course that's not what you're interested in.

Re:Analog inputs?

[onemorehour]

I was wondering the same thing. According to the inordic website (linked from an above comment) it does, in fact, have a mic-in, and supports recording to WAV and/or MP3. I might just have to buy one of these suckers.

Re:Analog inputs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the iHP-100/120 does have an analogue input, but as I was reading in the user manual, apparently recording will STOP after an MP3 file has reached 195 Mb of size or a WAV file has reached 795 Mb of size. Which is utterly stupid, IMO.... I'm into music performing as well, and I would love to record our 2+ hour sets... but with this the way it is, I'd get 75 mins in "normal" 44.1 KHz, stereo WAV. If I could make it mono, however... that would work. But it still doesn't make sense to have a limitation at all.

Re:Ogg?

[CvD]

You're new here, aren't you?

The fine print

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so I'm a nitpick and this isn't very unique. But anyway - the features list of the iHP-100:

Plays over 300 hours of digital music*

And then, at the bottom of the page:
*Over 300 hours of music based on Windows Media format at 64kbps.

Sure, all my music is encoded at 64kbps...

USB Mass Storage

[CmdrGravy]

The iRivers will also function as a USB Mass Storage device in Linux - I use mine this way and it's great.

Have you tried the alternatives ?

[CmdrGravy]

You're obviously in love in with your iPod but you equally obviously haven't tried an iRiver either.

I haven't tried an iPod so in balance to your points here's what I like about iRiver ( I have one with memory rather than a hardrive btw )

1) Device is very solidly built, small and light. It's "tolbleronesque" shape is very nice also. Also the headphones supplied are nice and the sound quality is superb.

2) It's a USB Mass Storage device which means I can copy across music from Linux, Windows or Macs

3) It's navigation and menu system is an absoloute breeze to navigate using the little joystick - basically you can do everything you need to do with one thumb and this joystick almost without thinking about it. It's great.

4) Support from iRiver is great, they are regulary improving the firmware offering users thing like USB compatibility ( whilst retaining the old non USB method for those who prefer it ), constant enhacements to the sound equalizer and now they are offering OGG as well - like they have always promised they would do. In short I think they really care about their customers and want to make the best player they can.

5) There is no DRM at all when used as a USB Mass Storage - you can record songs off the radio ( or through the line in ) and download them to your PC no problems at all.

Essentially if you are looking for a portable music player iRiver does this very well indeed.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[abelikoff]

No I haven't tried the alternatives. My point is exactly that I don't need to try alternatives just because of some cool featurette - iPod is working for me just fine.

Let me try to address the points above one by one:

1. Build quality - cannot say anything about it. I'd assume that it must be very well built to compete w/ iPod. Certain implementation details strike me as "gizmos" - for example a control with an LCD display. This display of course looks cool, but most of the time it is useless: you don't constantly check it to see what's playing and for those rare occasions when you do, main display is just fine. So the mini display is basically useless in my book, adding extra cost (both monetary and electric).

2. Mass storage device - nice to have. Not critical in any sense. There are two advantages in a mass storage device: data transfer abilities and ability to transfer music in a portable manner on many OSes treating the device as a disk. I don't believe data transfer abilities matter: keychain USB drives are dirt cheap and much more convenient. Their capacity is sufficient for everyday needs. As for cross-platform usability, yes it's useful but it is not important for most users (sorry, but it's true). One advantage though is that one can avoid using an abomination from Hell called Musicmatch for music upload.

3. Cannot comment on navigation. I'm not sure, there is something in iRiver that makes it much more convenient to navigate than iPod. I'm not sure it is possible to simplify navigation further...

4. Support is important, but again, consumers generally don't by the device thinking "Good that customer support works, when this device breaks down, they'll help me." Besides, brand recognition of Apple is lightyears ahead from iRiver.

5. Not sure what to say about this one... Seriously.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about "brand recognition"? It only applies to the Apple corporation not the consumer. Do you buy a portable music player to show off to people so they can instantly have "brand recognition"? No. You purchase it for your own needs.

BTW, just to show what goes on in the MP3 player world, iRiver is way up there in sales globally. I wouldnt say they are THAT far behind Apple in terms of your "brand recognition".

Personally, the iPod is just hyped.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[abelikoff]

Who cares about "brand recognition"? It only applies to the Apple corporation not the consumer. Welcome to the real world. Consider getting a book on business & marketing at Amazon or BN to learn some basics. What you call "hyped" is exactly what "brand recognition" is. You know it when people start using the word "iPod" as a noun when they mean an mp3 player. Same thing as we now see with Tivo.

Brand recognition is everything. Most of brain-dead consumers buy goods based on brand, not on merits (obviously up to some reasonable limit). Try telling some teenager girl that gap jeans are just as good as her precious pair of Diesels or A|X and you'll see what I mean. :-) This is true in pretty much any society but it is especially true in our consumer-oriented we're-no-worse-than-the-johnses society.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[10Ghz]

No I haven't tried the alternatives.

So in other words: You haven't tried any of the iPod-competitors, yet yo claim that they are no match to the iPod. How can you make that claim since you haven't tried them? Or are you just talking out of you ass?

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[abelikoff]

No, what I claim is that I don't need to try alternatives because iPod is good for me. Moreover, based on my personal and partial analysis, I claim that this is exactly the reason why a lot of other people will not need to try other offerings either.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like a Type-R badge is guaranteed to add at least 10 horses to your engine, that ipod brand-recognition-hype gets you 3 more dB of SNR over a plain-jane iRiver.

Re:Have you tried the alternatives ?

[10Ghz]

With that attitude, there would be no advancement in technology. "Why improve this thing, it's already good enough for me?". With that attitude you deny yourself a whole world of opportunities. You might find out that yes, iPod is good, but there are even better products out there. Why settle for an iPod if you can get something even better for the same amount of money? Because "iPod is good enough for me". Seriously, that does not make any sense.

Solid State?

[Tom7]

Nice, but I really want a solid-state device so that it uses less battery power and is resistant to dropping. Does anybody know one? 128mb is plenty.

Re:Solid State?

[cens0r]

I have a nomad IIc. It has builtin 64mb of memory, and I added a 128mb smart media card. Along with the notmad explorer from red chair software It has been a great MP3 player. the 192MB gives me more than enough music to last through the day. The thing is small (but not so small it's hard to use), light, I've dropped it plenty and had no problems. I use rechargeable NiMH batteries in it. It lasts about 5 days (2 hours a day of use on average) on one battery. With the cost of the extra software, the MP3 player, and the memory card I still came out under $150. The most expensive part actually being the memory card. And that I can reuse in my digital camera.

Linux Support Via Mass Storage Driver

[TenPin22]

You can mount your iriver hp-120 via scsi disk support and the usb mass storage device driver.

Just like one of those usb flash driver key thingumys.

Patents on MP3

[yerricde]

LAME APS is good enough for most people

lame --alt-preset standard isn't good enough for Americans because LAME can't even be lawfully compiled and distributed in areas where Fraunhofer holds patents on MPEG audio encoding.

there is aac, monkey's audio, and other stuff that are better than Ogg.

At 64 kbps, Ogg Vorbis beat AAC in ABX listening tests. Lossless codecs such as FLAC, Monkey's Audio, and Shorten aren't suited for the storage capacity of affordable pocket-size devices available in 2003, though a few mains-tethered devices do support FLAC.

Re:Solid State? - why, yes, actually!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Neuros has support for mp3 and Ogg (though Ogg support isn't totally complete for files with very high nominal bitrates), and you can also use it with Linux. It's been out a while now, and its models have two basic storage sizes - 20 GB and 128 MB. The model with 128 MB uses solid-state memory for storage.

iHP-100 is great

[xmedh02]

Yeah. I own one since the first day they were available here.. Key feaures:

• standard USB storage class device, no proprietary crap like Apple or Creative - plug in to any computer with USB, works fine with Linux
• you can browse the contents of the drive hierarchically, subdirs and all, no database crap like Creative Nomad Zen (though you can browse through your mp3 files via a database based on ID3 tags, too)
• you can use it to transfer files from one computer to another
• HQ Li-Pol battery, 16 hours runtime
• nice BIG display, nice display on the remote
• you can even read text files on your iRiver while listening to music
• iRiver's great customer support - they actually listen to their customers and base their firmware upgrades upon customer suggestions (hence OGG, even when it was very difficult to implement in embedded hardware)

iRiver's Announcement on What Devices Support Ogg

[DeckerEgo]

iRiver made an announcement a few days ago about what devices past and future will be supported. Most aside from the lowest-model devices (i.e. 100-series) will be supported, but those with only 8Mbit flash will either support MP3/OGG or WMA/MP3, but not both. The newest devices out on the market will have 16Mbit flash, and so should support plenty of formats including Ogg. The one I'm most looking forward to is the iFP-500, their 256M to 1GB (w00t!) solid state player. Ogg support, up to 1GB flash. Very nice.

Neuros flameout

[nightsweat]

Make damn sure it supports .ogg out of the box. I spent $400 on a Neuros back in June and sure, it can play ogg files, but it can't sort them, create playlists, read playlists that reference ogg files, and NSM (the primary package for synching in Windows) does not support ogg yet.

They plan to support ogg in NSM in "September" but there hasn't been a release yet and I doubt they will release in the next 15 hours. Support's coming, I'm sure, but so is Christmas and if iRiver delivers, Santa will deliver a lot of their players to my friends this holiday.

lossless does have a point

[fizbin]

There is one good reason to have a lossless audio format available: when the lossy encoding that you have your listenable audio in isn't supported. Then, you either suffer the pain of transcoding or go with a lossless format.

For example, suppose I want to listen to all the presentations given at linux.conf.au 2003. Now, on the CD they're all in Speex format.

This format, I'll note, isn't terribly well supported by hardware players. Also, although some of those presentations are a bit long, I doubt that the entire conference is going to come close to filling up one of these huge players, even when converted into FLAC.

However, if you actually do have a lossless source (CD rip, recorded FLAC file, etc.) I'll grant you that FLAC support at that point is a bit silly.

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[nightsweat]

Neuros ogg support is nominal at best. It'll play the files, but you can't create playlists, sync in Windows without using a third party tool (NDBM), or order your tracks arbitrarily.

I bought one and I'm still pissed.

Salsa Shark

[Fubar411]

I'm with this guy. I've already filled a 40GB portable USB drive (for work listening) with 192 kbps and I'm only about 3/4 of my way through the archives.

But as I'm getting closer to filling the sucker, I'm thinking of the Clerks line "We're gonna need a bigger boat. Man goes into cage, cage goes into salsa, shark's in the salsa."

I'm with you 99%.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't it have vibrate functionality? Put it in your pocket and waiiittt for a caaalll... *Whee!*

(If you're a girl, that is...)

I'm with you 99%.

[Anonymous Coward]

What you missed is because of your UID. Once upon a time there were Slashdot polls with options like "I don't ... you insensitive clod!".

My Empeg does OGG

[PGillingwater]

Nothing to see here folks. As of the recent Alpha Release v3.0 my 60 Gb Empeg Car Player now supports Ogg Vorbis format.

Re:My Empeg does OGG

[agallagh42]

Are you not worried about this?

Car Support to be Discontinued, 01-May-2003.

Great for you that your device now has Ogg support, but I don't think I'd buy a new one (or a used one from ebay) if the support is discontinued.

Re:My Empeg does OGG

[PGillingwater]

Worried? Not at all. There's a great community support for it, and if something breaks, it's usually the hard disk, which is easy to replace. It's a great piece of engineering -- and it's sitting on my desk now, playing a track by Mint Royale, "Sexiest Man in Jamaica..."

Re:My Empeg does OGG

[Anonymous Coward]

That is support as in "who ya gonna call." Not support as in continuing engineering. Since the empeg shares the same codebase as the newest rio audio products it gets to come along for the ride for essentially free. So future software upgrades are not jeopardized by that announcement and given that the absolute latest stuff is built from the same source tree, that means empeg owners can be reasonably assured of a future lifetime at least equal to that of the absolutely latest stuff if not longer.

Neuros

[HardCase]

The Neuros players support WAV, MP3, WMA and OGG. One of them has a 20GB drive. They all work with Linux (actually, with anything that will support Java and USB). FM tuner, microphone, stereo recording via line in, an FM transmitter to listen on a radio.

Neuros has posted a social contract that decries DRM and supports Free Software via the BSD license.

Yeah, it has some drawbacks - the big one being that it's still a USB 1.1 device. Also, you can't get one outside of North America because it seems that the US and Canada are two of a very small number of countries that don't get in a snarl over micro-powered FM transmitters. Also, it doesn't support FLAC, but I'm not sure that's a drawback...after all, none of these players can really present itself as an audiophile device.

The 20GB model costs $199 in the US. I've got one and I like it. It's not an iPod killer, but I get the impression that it wasn't meant to be.

-h-

What amuses me...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is that every time an iPod competitor is announced, they are targeted at rivalling current existing iPod models. They might feature 4 more hours of battery time, and, in extremely rare cases, more storage capacity [although I think that with the new 40gbs there's no mp3 player of similar size which can rival it for capacity]. But the rival companies seem to forget that apple is constantly working to improve the ipod. When those new players are released, apple's next gen pod will already be in the pipe, or possible even released, featuring functions not yet devised by Dell, Rio och Creative, even more storage capacity, and perhaps even, if we are lucky, some groundbreaking new possible modes of use [rumors abound about direct downloading from apple's music store and video capacities].

How could any portable music player ever rival the iPod [except in terms of prize ;-)] when they are all targeted at pods released months and years ago, and, in most cases, not quite yet up to the standards of already existing players?

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[HardCase]

Neuros ogg support is nominal at best. It'll play the files, but you can't create playlists, sync in Windows without using a third party tool (NDBM), or order your tracks arbitrarily.

So what's the big deal about having to use NDBM? DI supports free software and NDBM is the result. In many respects, it is superior to the Windows-based sync tool that DI provided. With firmware 1.40 and NDBM 1.10, ogg support is quite good. I've used it under Windows, Linux and Solaris with no problems at all.

-h-

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[arkane1234]

I'm not trolling, but why is it that nearly every player I've seen (minus the ones that are "around the corner" so there is probably hope) is so utilitarian looking?
man... the Karma looks sweet, but after looking at that, the one you pointed out as all the looks of a remote control...

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[nightsweat]

I haven't been able to get NDBM to reorder tracks in a playlist any way but alphabetically. Have you? I'd like to hear them in original album order without mankeying with the track names.

How are they doing this with software?

[dspyder]

Surely they're using a dedicated MP3 decoding chip for playing MP3s... how are they going to add OGG support to older players with just a software update? Surely it's not some sort of reconfigurable FPGA at that price... anyone know how?

--D

Re:Ogg?

[powerlord]

For now, yes. It does however allow Ogg to gain more traction in the market. First it was used mostly by home hobbiests, and Video Game makers. This could signal a move more toward mainstream hobbiests. If enough move then it might make sense to for some players to start abandoning mp3 (although I doubt this will happen anytime soon).

Remember, mp3 had a huge lead and dominates the market. A move away from that is sure to be slow, but if no alternative exists, then the holders of the mp3 patents can extort any price they'd like.

Bah!

[ed1park]

I'm still waiting for an Ogg/mp3 player that will run off my 1GB compact flash!

Archos Recorder 20

[meehawl]

Has both SPDIF and analog line in and out.

iPod Analysis

[meehawl]

iPods are smaller than many other disk-based MP3 players, but they achieve this compactness by sacrificing features and expandability. They cost around 50% more than equivalently featured audio-only harddisk-based players. They have no analog or digital line-in recording, no digital line-outs for hi-fidelity audio, no microphone facility, no FM radio reception or broadcast, no WiFi or Bluetooth capability, no memory card interface, and no easy way for users to replace or upgrade the device's batteries or hard drive. Unlike most of the new generation media players they also feature no MPEG 4 video playback or recording.

They have a weird, all-or-nothing metadata approach to storing music that forces you to use the moderately featured iTunes freeware to utilise the iPod to its fullest instead of being able to use some other better-featured media jukebox software. Their battery life is shorter than (AFAIK) all other disk-based HD MP3 players. I gather from the iPod usergroups that the new-gen iPods are getting between 5-8 hours of real-world playtime, and this is with new, fully conditioned batteries.

On the plus side, they do look cute, and fit in most pockets easily. Well done to Apple for figuring that a large proportion of potential MP3 player buyers are not interested in advanced features, and will pay a significant premium for compactness and a simple, constrained interface.

In the 90s, AOL similarly spotted that they could capture a large proportion of online users by offering a simple, integrated system. I think iPods are "training wheel" MP3 players for many people. It remains to be seen whether Apple can manage their new users' experience growth and release more compelling iPods using latest technologies so that these maturing users graduate to more fully-featured iPods and do not desert to other manufacturers' offerings.

Re:iPod Analysis

[abelikoff]

You've nailed it! Good analysis.

Scratches

[meehawl]

Build quality - cannot say anything about it. I'd assume that it must be very well built to compete w/ iPod.

If iPod build quality is so superlative, then why is there a huge cottage industry in providing various kinds of skins and covers for the iPod? The external shell scratches too easily. Also, the positioning of the headphone jack is problematic and prone to wear and breakage.

Re:Scratches

[abelikoff]

No, not because of that. For any popular gadget there will always be a large industry of add-ons, skins etc. Especially now, when no gadget can be released unless it has "skinz" and similar junk.

There is another reason why having a secondary industry is a good thing. It allows the primary vendor to focus on core features of the product without getting unfocused with various cute but not generally useful gizmos, like "an ethernet port w/ an internal web server," "a built-in ham radio tranciever," "a laser beam attached to shark's head" etc. This would be taken care of by the "leech" industry.

Finally, I've got an iPod (duh!) that I carry in the pouch that came with it. I never got it scratched and I don't need a special carrying case for it.

Re:hmmm... this design looks familiar....

[alienw]

Just for the record: buying candy-coated, largely proprietary, overpriced computers from Apple does not make you a l33t h4x0r, cool, or attractive. Grow the fuck up. You sound like you're 14 years old. Is that a pretty good guess of your age?

To Xiph, the Ogg name is important.

[jbn-o]

Thanks for the info, and thanks for supporting Ogg Vorbis. As an aside, in the words of Carsten "Purple" Haese, "it's Ogg, not OGG".

Re:Depressing thoughts

[edxwelch]

Creative don't do Linux, however you can get the Zen to work, thanks to these guys...
http://gnomad2.sourceforge.net/

ATTENTION IDIOT MODERATORS

[Doktor Memory]

The above post was not "flamebait." It was, depending on your point of view, either "funny" or "offtopic." Please step AWAY from the crack pipe. Thank you.

Iriver hauls ass on Apple

[pkpro1]

i own an iriver product.. their ifp380t is rugged, well-built, fashionable, and excellent in quality. i expect no less from their hard-drive units. i can't wait until this company goes IPO, i'm buying their stock and going to watch them kick apple's ass in this market.

hi-res photo of iRiver iHP 120

[i4u]

http://gadgetphotogallery.i4u.com/squito/index.php ?menu=photos&photo_id=21

I'll believe it when I see it

[jjoyce]

Right now the only ogg support is in press releases. Neuros has it in beta, but they're a little ways off yet and don't seem to be progressing very quickly. As for the Rio Karma and the iRiver players, I'll believe it when I see it.

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[HardCase]

I haven't been able to get NDBM to reorder tracks in a playlist any way but alphabetically. Have you? I'd like to hear them in original album order without mankeying with the track names.

Yes, NeurosDBM or Positron will order them any way that you want in the database, then the Neuros will play them back that way. I just checked on mine and it does that.

-h-

Re:there is a portable ogg player but it's not iRi

[nightsweat]

Glad to hear. It must be a later v. of NDBM than I have. I'll try it this weekend.

Thanks for the good info.

No Problem To Copy Files From/To The iHP

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want to point something out, that there is no such "lock" on the iHP machines. It shows as an external HDD the moment you hook it up to your computer. You can copy any type of file to and from the iHP, just like your ordinary computer HDD. Just so you guys know :)