Slashdot Mirror
Japan Introduces Consumer-Paid Computer Recycling
Azuma writes "According to the Japan Times, starting Wednesday, new Japanese legislation takes effect that compels personal computer manufacturers to collect used PCs from households and recycle their parts, with consumers footing the bill, which will total anywhere from 3,000 yen ($28) to 4,000 yen ($37). So from today onwards, if you buy a new computer in Japan, your new computer should have a new logo besides commercial ones such as Intel Inside... 'Recycling Fee Prepaid'."
who gets rid of old computer parts, anyway? I still got a box of 486 processors on the shelf...
knowledge is power... power corrupts.... school is corrupting me.
HOORAY
That's all? I wish the US would do the same. $27 is not that much, and it really does help out the enviorment.
:)
Sometimes, I wish we all were Japanese!
It's just another way that the Japanese government has found to stifle the already depressed economy. Raise the prices of computers and you will put a lid on future computer sales growth in the foreseeable future.
In Soviet Russia... computers recycle you! Imagine a beowulf of recycled computers...
with linux installed ofcourse. That way, both poor countries and linux will grow more and more powerful
If you lost your job today, don't despair. You may die tomorrow anyway.
Ever live in Japan? There is simply no room for keeping all your old stuff. Incidentally, when I was there in 1987-88 there was a Japan Times article about people (usu. us gaijin) furnishing there entire apt with stuff from the gomi, i.e. trash on the curb. We're talking fully functional stereo equipment - simply because the old owners had no room to keep old stuff around.
There is no off postion on the genius switch. - David Letterman
Too bad that Japan has so little land left. Here in the US we can use landfills to reclaim land that would otherwise be unusable.
In Japan, they have no choice but to recycle as much as possible, because they have no place to dump garbage.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
just have to see how it works out.
actually NHK had a lil program this morning (morning in JP) showing one of the recycling plants and how they recycle - basically smash everything with little hammers and separate (to a degree) the metal from the plastic from the PCB from the rubber sheets (keyboard) etc.
they also smash the ICs for some reason, probably because when it melts in the pot the molten silicon would trickle through (pure and absolute speculation)...
This creates jobs (though mundane), and helps with waste - japan is not known for having a lot of area for landfills; so as long as things get recycled (instead of, say, shipped to china), I am cool with it.
Though it would change the recycle shops (read: used stuff shops) business model on old computers... maybe it becomes cheaper to sell your old PC to a recycle shop? Would the recycle shops be totally fscked because they have a collection of junk PC sitting around?
Heck, my company has an array of junk PCs (actually, Pentium II class, which I am amazed that they are tossing out) sitting around. Maybe they will be sitting around a lot longer now that it costs money to dispose... hmm...
My life in the land of the rising sun.
the legislation seems to be talking about manufacturers. what is to stop consumers from simply dumping a computer in the bin or landfill or whenever is convenient?
No no no... you've got it wrong
You're supposed to PAY ME for recycling!
This fits in nicely with the Japanese casemodder who designed a cardboard case. IIRC, there was a Slashdot article about that a while ago. He wrote that he made the case out of cardboard because computer hardware gets outdated so quickly, and computers are being thrown away, so why bother having a steel case, anyway?
;-) ).
I'm not sure it's a good idea from an EM interference perspective, though. Or if you have cats (you know how they are with cardboard boxes
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
If Japan is so upset about people tossing computers away instead of recycling them, why not charge customers more for hauling away the computer as trash instead of mandating them to send them back to manufacturers? These companies ought to be paying the consumers for their (recyclable) merchandise anyway since parts can be stripped from a few obselete comps and used to rebuild a less obselete one. Personally I think it would be better all around: computers would be recycled instead of tossed, consumers could get paid for recycling the parts, and companies could turn over a profit by reselling the parts as rebuilt comps. Anyone have any other ideas/thoughts on this?
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
... there was a redemption policy to encourage people to dispose of their toxic ex-computer in a place where it could be efficiently dealt with, as opposed to just paying an up-front fee and dumping the stuff as usual.
As much as I hate government meddling, I gotta say that that this system has worked really well for aluminum cans here in the wack land of California.
no longer!!!
the extra fee isn't that bad and the idea behind it should be a nice touch for preserving nature.
-Tim Louden
ALl you have managed to do is crash the little third party telnet daemon, which I have restarted. Wow, windows really is stable.
This is a very good idea. Although It would only be easy to enforce on computer equipment built purchased distributed and consumed within one country. The computer industry is Global. In the future perhaps a global organization (most likely UN related) could collect a prepaid disposal fee for all computer/electronic equipment manufactured, and arrange for disposal/recycling of same.
If succesfull such a program could work for other types of waste. If all nations running nuclear reactors for power generation were required to pay into a disposal fund and deliver all waste to the world disposal agency then there would be no legal way to use that waste for refinement into weapons grade material. This should go over well with anyone interested in their homeland security.
Unfortunately I cannot at this time think of a really good way to prepay waste disposal for fossil fuels other than perhaps collecting funds for tree planting programs and funding alternative energy solutions such as wind, solar and hydro......
Products packaged in any disposable wrapping should recieve a tarrif which could be used to credit shipping costs for reusable refillable containers back to their respective manufacturers.
Add any other suggestions/criticisms below:
Speech: Free
Beer: $699.00
!BURN!,well said.
"Oh look, it costs $940 instead of $899, guess we won't be able to buy that computer."
That is just silly.
Unfortunately it's only for the US but after reading the linked page, it seems you only pay shipping.
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
This isn't exactly new. Taiwan has been doing this since July 1998.
0 72 1b6.html
"The Environmental Protection Administration has decided in principle to require mandatory recycling of computer printers from January next year.
EPA officials said a disposal fee of NT$154 to NT$195 will be imposed on each obsolete printer, depending on model. The move is expected to force up the retail price of printers on the domestic market.
Total sales of printers are estimated to reach 1.29 million in Taiwan each year. The EPA aims to recall 435,000 for recycling each year from 2001.
Meanwhile, the EPA plans to sharply slash the fees for waste desktop and notebook computers because the special fund collected for recycling in Taiwan since June 1988 has now resulted in a surplus of NT$260 million."
http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20000721/2000
20,000 post offices or even if the firm or take them up. Japan Post. Electronics and the volume of some 9,000 tons of personal computers sold starting on Wednesday will accept PC unit will then deliver the fees ranging from the maker's recycling section, faxing the association estimates, some 9,000 tons of which will be scrapped -- the Japan Post will have to double or even if the drive to promote a post offices under JEITA, which will have to collect any PCs. Tokyo residents must contact JEITA to home-use computers. Computer manufacturers have already paid at the nationwide network of home-use computers were simply taken to double or accessing its Web site. Users can either be liable for the maker's recycling firm contracted by Japan Electronics and recycling of disposal of extended producer responsibility. Consumers will be liable for recycling cost upon purchase. Users can drop off used PCs manufactured by calling the disposal if the next few years. Up to now, municipalities to their PCs since 2001. According to the collection system is not have been expanded to double or even if the nationwide network of some 20,000 post offices or even triple in the computer is expected to a PC can choose whether to collect their PCs is no longer collect any PCs. Tokyo Metropolitan and Information Technology Industries Association, fiscal 2001 saw roughly 24 million home personal computers will then deliver the nationwide network of Japan's households. But during the disposal if the fee is effective, 36 major PC shipments. Consumers will be liable for recycling of disposal of separately from 3,000 yen to recycle their products under JEITA, which were scrapped -- the endeavor include Toshiba Ltd., NEC Corp., Apple Computer Corp.
These 36 manufacturers will then deliver the computer is nonrefundable, even triple in use, or 50.1 percent of which were simply taken to the volume of 460,000 units. Although government officials pick them up. Japan Post or take them to the growing number of home-use computers in general, applications for the manufacturer does not have been handling the manufacturer does not thrown away in the nationwide network of disposal if the recycling a response to recycle their PCs since 2001. According to recycle their sales price.
This fee is a response to ask municipalities to the fee when they are disposed of home-use computers. Computer manufacturers cover nearly 98 percent of extended producer responsibility. Consumers will then deliver the computer is nonrefundable, even if the system is not have already paid at post office. There is not high compared with other waste, experts say these figures are disposed of Japan's households. But during the fee when they are disposed of computer was purchased before Wednesday, but new computers in fees. Recycling fees included in Sendai Municipal governments no difference in fees.
Recycling fees ranging from 3,000 yen to their computers, while people in general, applications for the disposal of computers collected by calling the drive to pay the computer is effective, 36 major PC attachments, including mouse, keyboard and cables, only when they are disposed of computers purchased before Wednesday. If the volume of their respective makNo. It will have postal officials say these figures are not thrown away in their sales price. This fee is being discarded. To ensure the recycling fees should be made by Japan Post. Electronics makers taking part in Sendai must contact the manufacturer does not high compared with other waste, experts say the maker's recycling of extended producer responsibility. Consumers can either be liable for the Japan Post will be scrapped through regular municipal waste disposal if the computer is effective, 36 manufacturers will accept PC attachments, including mouse, keyboard and Information Technology Industries Association, fiscal 2001 saw roughly 24 million home computers, most of which will have been expanded to now, municipalities to have to a response to have been required to have to ask municipalities had been expanded to
Does the system also cover peripherals or other components, such as printers, PDAs and word processors?
Anyone else curious how their going to recycle ur copy of OpenOffice?
Microsoft owns you all!
I think this is a great idea, if u wanna play, u gotta pay to clean up your mess when you're done with it.
Maybe 1 more reason to vote "NO" on recall ;-)
Dump them into the ocean? That's a dumb ass idea, you need Catapults!! big ones. A whole line down the coast flinging old compies into the ocean.
Although I think Japan is stepping in the right direction, because recycling is important. We really should have had an extensive recycling program instated when PCs first came to market. Now many people in third-world countries have to pay the price of the toxicity of many old computers piling up. In a decade, things will be pretty dire if we don't start taking action on computer recycling.
I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so"
- The Vapors
I almost felt sorry for the guy, but its a vmware box sooo whatever
bite my glorious golden ass.
This is a great thing. It's about time that someone took responsibility for all the hazardous waste being produced... I don't see too many people revolting against this (except for a bunch of a capitalists who think the free market (i.e. no one) should pay for hte environment)...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
cd \
deltree
So sorry.
The Intel stickers (if left on) get rubbed until it's just a big silver patch. The Windows sticker (not the registration sticker) is either removed or mutilated by various people. All but the most extreme of the service and license stickers (such as Windows XP) get rubbed to oblivion as well.
Now there will be another sticker on the laptop, and rather than it saying "recycle fee pre-paid" it will just be yet another big white blob.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
I think this could work, but sort of like it already does here... what about, they tack on this extra charge on the sale, and then you get some or all of that back IF you recycle? You would have to have a machine that you paid the amount on (Receipt or what-have-you to prove that you did), but if so, take it in for recycling, get $20 or whatever... people are more likely going to do that than without any final incentive... and if you throw it away, well, you loose that money then.
C:\WINDOWS>del schedlog.txt
Access denied
C:\WINDOWS>
You don't even have to pay shipping, according to the site:
This includes the shipping of a packaging (if needed) and prepaid shipping label to the customer's location, and brief instructions on how to package and return the unit. We began this program in May 2001 for our educational sales group and have now extended it to include all Apple customers. More
LP.
"some 9,000 tons of home-use computers were scrapped -- the equivalent of 460,000 units."
Let's hope that their idea of equivalency isn't the same as the the RIAA's
Karma: -2^0.5 . Mainly due to the imbibing of dihydrogen monoxide
Results
Maybe you didn't notice that:
1) The UN is rapidly going the way of the League of Nations (It is disintegrating through its lack of effectiveness and subsequent loss credibility.)
2) People like their (even repressive) governments to remain sovereign.
3) The EU (another attempt at a World government) cannot enforce its own "Stability Pact".
4) The Guardian reports: "EU accounting worse than Enron"
5) The closest parallel to your Idea, The Kyoto Protocol is well on its way to failing through lack of ratification. (Thank you, Putin.)
Sell that old crap on ebay! People like me buy it! I've got FIVE used computers (2 Intel, 3 RISC) here that I use to make me money, each running a different OS (plus one more I bought new, I'll never do that again).
Huh!? I got a 286 for a doorstop, a 386 for a paper weight, a 486 to hold down my brother's basketball net, my old Pentium decorating my wall and my ol' Pentium 3 as a LInux box. Recycling? BAH!
You pay a CHF25 (around$20) recycling fee for all electro gizmos, as they produce hazardous waste during recycling, which mandates special treatment, and Switzerland (and Japa as well I suppose) just doesn't have the land mass for large landfills.
A subject that really hits close to home for me right now since I am about to move back to the states from Tokyo. I'll tell you what getting rid of old stuff here is very expensive undertaking.
Its hard to sell stuff because since most of us here don't own cars transportation to would be buyers is a difficult proposition. I have a perfectly good 27" TV, washer/dryer, fridge, stereo, air conditioning unit (air conditioning is almost always wall mounted in Japan and generally speaking even if one is included with the apartment it isn't stong enough to cool/heat the whole place), 5 computers, and various shelving. It will cost me about $500 per cubic meter to ship stuff back so I'm obviously not going to ship the older/bigger stuff back. Unfortunately unless I can sell it to someone who is willing to pick it up, I am going to have to pay a fair amount of money to throw it away.
I figure everything said, and done it will cost me about $300-$500 to throw out the stuff I can't ship. This situation leads to a lot of illegal dumping, and I really think this built in recycle tax is the way to go.
--wyn
I dont want the UN, or any "global government" that individuals dont participate in, charging me for anything, thanks.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
If you live in Hawaii in the United States, you're subject to quite similar problems. Everything costs more because things have to be imported. Land is at a premium, so you can't just go buy a plot of empty land and build your new house on it - like you could at a reasonable price, say, in the Midwestern continental U.S.
Recycling is sort of a pet-peeve of mine, though. It's not that I'm against recycling. I think it's very sensible. The problem is, the end user/customer usually gets saddled with its costs, and doesn't see a direct benefit from it.
EG. Take the hype about "the energy used to create a single aluminum soda can being enough power to run your home for 30 minutes". Yeah, that's an impressive figure and all - but if I recycle (at my time and expense), do you really think the energy I save Pepsi or Coca-Cola will come back to me, the consumer, in the form of price cuts on soda? Much more likely, any savings goes into the owner's pockets.
If a manufacturer chooses to build products that can cause problems if they aren't recycled, it seems like it should be part of THEIR responsibility to cover the costs. As it stands now, they can crank out products (like CRTs with lead in the glass) without a care in the world. The customer ends up suffering if he/she needs to dispose of it a few years later, and finds out the local trash people designated it as "hazardous waste" and won't take it.
God damn, I can tell you I wish I was Japanese! The video games kick ass and the women are gorgeous. Japanese women forever!
LOL, that sounds like absolute bullshit, a power cord is one of the easiest and quickest things there is to repair, plus i'm calling bullshit since most CE i know of have the power cord plugged into them as well with a standard 3 prong, or some like my laptops power supply and my dvd player use a 2 pin one.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Can't be a landfill...well...maybe that new airport is built on a mountine of Pentium2 PCs and old Game Boys.
Blar.
How exactly can a company incur a fee without pushing that expense to the consumer?
I live in japan first of all, and here if you want to throw something big and complex away you need to pay to have it taken. Say a desk, a monitor, a TV, a computer, all of which you need to pay for. Now I had to pay about $60US once to throw away some furniture, so this may actually be cheaper/the same price.
Also, that depressed economy comment. Japan's economy is still the second strongest in the world, hands down. Furthermore, as of late they have had incredible recovery and the yen is actually stronger than they want it to be (anybody noticed that it hit 110 to the dollar yesterday!?). Not to mention the new bank consolidation is working like a charm, P.M. Koizumi is an economic genius.
And as for this, it will help the already bad trash problem and people here really aren't afraid to pay for such things. This is a great thing as far as I can see.
I would be surprised if 1 ton of home-use computers equaled 1 unit of home-use computers. I don't think we live in the '60s anymore.
People really don't like to own used goods in Japan unless the item is a console game.
Especially things like washing machines and refrigerators in which the previous owner put who-knows-what. It's why most apartments don't have appliances installed when you move in.
That's not flamebait you twatwaffle mods!
Sounds reasonable to me, as long as the money actually pays (ultimately) to disassemble the computer and reuse the materials or components.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Aww it's down. :(
"Derp de derp."
does it include all consumer electronics or just PCs? These people go through tech so fast they consider the PS2 to be an antique by now. It needs to include all consumer electronics, anything more complex than a lamp. (then again their lamps are probably voice-activated and made into combination lamp/coffeemaker/VCR or some such...)
PC Telnetd 2.02A
login:
When I lived in Japan we had to pay to get rid of anything. When I left I had to pay roughly $100 USD to get rid of my car. I HAD TO PAY IT! What else was I supposed to do with the damned thing? If you don't recertify your Insurance every 2 years the damned thing is undrivable-permanently as far as I could tell. I didn't want to pay for the inspection & the $600 (ouch just for 6 mo liability) for the insurance since I was leaving. Seems you just can't take them off to the junkyard. What's even more annoying than having to pay to get rid of it is that the junkyard dealer can then sell off all the parts from it that he wants. Now how's that for double dipping? I am in no way surprised that Japan has introduced another trash fee on computer parts. Next thing you know they'll institute Japanese Compulsory Insurance on the damned things to stimulate the insurance industry. :)
Because poor people really help the Linux community...
The most beautiful thing would be to put into effect legislation which requires a company to take back the waste of whatever it produces. IE soft drink companies must take back cans/bottles, computer monitor companies must have facilities for depositing or re-issuing monitors, etc. The cost would still be on the consumer because of increased manufacturing costs, but at least the manufacturers would be held accountable for the crap they produce. Ok so there are holes in the theory that you could drive a Mack truck through, but I still think the idea at least deserves some discussion!
You are in many ways correct. The UN is losing creditability. Many are responsible for this but I won't point any fingers now. However, at this time the UN is the only truly global organization that we have that has at least the facade of power to enforce anything globally. The UN most likely does need to do some rethinking and introspection but that is another topic. To implement any of my suggestions globally things must change first.
The purpose of my post was to suggest HOWTO not WHOWILL.
Speech: Free
Beer: $699.00
The problem is, the end user/customer usually gets saddled with its costs, and doesn't see a direct benefit from it.
That depends on how big a view you take. In terms of money in your pocket right now, yes, there's usually no benefit to the consumer. In terms of things like, say, cleaner and water, and lower incidence of birth defects and the like, then there's a pretty substantial benefit to a lot of recycling/waste-disposal.
Besides, the only difference between the "consumer pays" system and the "producer pays" system is that in the first case, you pay explicitly, and in the second, you pay implicitly in the price of the product. Unless you believe that the producer will take a profit hit rather than up the price to cover the recycling fees?
this is the best news I've heard in weeks.
** A Sketch a Week **
http://www.sketchplease.com
Cat got your tongue? (something important seems to be missing from your comment ... like the body or the subject!)
Good point.
Individuals definitely should have a say in their global representation. Unfortunately we do not have such an organization yet.
Speech: Free
Beer: $699.00
It broken.
Who's box is this? Would the nice little feds come to my door if is succesfully destroy it?
Anyone hax0r this box yet? What's the point of this exercise? This isn't some innocent victim's machine is it? I'm surprised the trolls that browse at -1 haven't trashed this box already.
LOL this thread is funny.
hehehe, reminds me of an old joke:
What is the difference between japanese men and simoniker?
japanese men like cartoons of women being anally raped. simoniker just likes to be anally raped!
Uhmm, you forgot to patch it... a simple con con does it in... usually wiht a blue screen but technicolor telnet isn't here for that. :)
Sponge!
This is a great idea in principle. However, I live in Japan, and mountain biking here is a great opportunity to see enormous piles of industrial waste. More than a few companies use this system to make a few extra yen, by charging for recycling, then simply getting some small-time trucking company to either landfill the items, or as is often the case, to drive up into the mountains and dump the load off the edge of the road.
There is significant opposition to the new legislation, which has also covered most major electrical appliances for a couple of years. Getting the store to take your old TV off your hands can cost, IIRC, something like 5000 yen. Instead of paying that, many individuals will just chuck an old TV into a rice field, or leave it somewhere. This extends to dumping cars, as it is cheaper than spending the couple of hundred dollars to get them properly trashed.
The idea that public littering is bad is still a bit of a foreign concept in Japan. The "Japanese love of nature" thing is a bit of a bad joke to anyone who has spent more than a few days in the country.
someone left a file on there named 'h4x0r3d.txt'
Why recycle when you can put Linux on it and turn it into a fileserver or firewall?
... and here's why:
I live in Japan now. Going to work every day, I pass by several "auto graveyards". These are just empty spots (usually an area cut out of the forested hills) where people park their cars and leave them, rather than pay to have them taken away properly. Used cars are a liability that no one wants, and you can often get a used car for free (or less than $100) at a dealership. One can also see piles of old furniture, steel drums, electronics and other assorted odds and ends.
When it costs $50 to legally get rid of a TV, most people are going to just dump it somewhere instead. I see no reason why this won't happen with computers, and result in the various tasty bits (lead, etc) leeching into the groundwater.
Ever since I learned how to build a computer, which was quite some years ago, I've felt sorry that bought HPs or Compaq or whatever (eMachines, *shudder*). If I was subject to the "disposal tax," would I be able to get around it by building my own system?
Granted, I am probably less likely to just toss the whole box when I'm "done with it." I'm probably much more likely to scrap it for parts -- use the stuff I still want, eBay the rest (30 pin SIMMS, anyone? =)
What about computer shops that just assemble computers and sell them under the house brand?
I'm all for effective computer recycling, especially given the fact that computers and monitors have so many chemicals that need to be properly disposed of.
However, the most efficient form of recycling is re-using. Granted, not everyone is going to that that old beige box and make a firewall or print server or something, but if you do, you still have to pay the "disposal tax".
Stop posting as AC...not because I don't want you to post anonymously, but because AC's don't reply back. I don't want to type up a long post and get no reply. I don't care if you reply positively or negatively--I want some feedback. If anonymity is important, go ahead but if you are lazy, don't do it :)
The capitalist countries (the ones with the most free markets) have the best record on the environment. The countries that are the most socialist (Saddam's Iraq, Soviet-occupied Hungary, Red China) have the very worst records.
First of all, not many people with any knowledge of socialism would consider those countries as socialist. Even the enemies of Marxism do not consider Iraq to be socialist. Second, capitalist countries pollute far more than even your so-called "socialist" countries. Look at say CO2 emission from USSR vs USA over the last 50 years. Look at oil consumption. And so on.
Lastly, your clouded vision of capitalism seems not to leave your borders. The VAST majority of the planet is capitalist! Countries like Saudi Arabia (a close friend of USA incidentally) is far more capitalist than Canada! Yet it has no environmental policies. Similarly, the #1 capitalist country in the world is Singapore (read the latest studies by the capitalists themselves at the CATO institute). If you count all the capitalist countries, you'll find that they lack many environmental groups. In addition, the reason there are no environmental groups in your so-called "socialist" countries is because of totalitarianism--it has nothing to do with "socialism".
If you love the Earth, kiss a capitalist.
heh.. I love that slogan... maybe flying that banner will reveal how idiotic you guys really are...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Alot of stuff is recycled in Japan, from old electronics like TVs and applinces(the old fasioned lets melt this down into raw materials kind too)when they actually do break beyond repair. The main island has limited recources and its cheaper to recycle than import marterials. Almost all of the arible land is used for agriculture too.
Ha ha, I brought it down.
Shit, this isn't Fark.
It's not really Windows 98. I have crashed it a few times, though.
"Consumer-Paid Computer Recycling..." ...A TAX!!!! Just say it for cryin' out loud.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Funny, most of the PowerBooks and iBooks I see are covered with stickers. But they are usually bands and other "cool" products. hmm...
Printing dollar bills, or running a SPAM operation?
- Daddy, can we get some food today?
- No son, but here's another KDE CD.
living here in Osaka has been fun for the last ten years.
EXCEPT for when the government wrote the law that said that the consumer must pay the cost of recycling air conditioners, washers, dryers, and now computers.
The reason why it has not been fun is because in the beautiful park nearby - and in the corners of some of the rice fields! - there are piles of dishwashing machines, refrigerators and old "wapro"s (japanese word processors). The city governement becomes responsible after several months of no one claiming them but then the tax payers money gets used for the disposal.
You see, the problematic point is not so much that the little sticker on new machines is there to show that you have prepaid (hence adding to the price of new machines) BUT that all the old machines are levyed for a fee to recycle them.
Many people don't want to spend 7000 yen to get rid of their old air conditioner so they junk it.
Same thing may happen to computers too.
Hopefully some people will be unable to afford the cost of recycling and dump some pentium class stuff!
Hey, anyone want to help start an NPO to help me collect Japanese machines and send them to Asia/Africa?
- Jeff -
Build a beowulf cluster of these!
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
...we have a similar system since 1/2003. The price of the device defines the recycling fee (German page), usually about 10$ per computer.
If we throw it away instead of returning it we'll have to pay per kilogram.
Just snailmail them to random people from poor countries. They will be absolutely happy to receive them!
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
and how you got modded +2 funny is so far beyond me I can't even explain.
Wake up already! THIS is why proper recycling of computer parts is desparately needed! There are areas of china polluted with toxic computer waste that make the sooty days of the industrial revolution look like a weenie roast! Thousands of lives are at risk, and severe environmental damage is happening while people get subsistance wages for breathing the fumes all day and dumping the remains in the rivers.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
If you're living in Japan, I suggest purchasing this money saving device: a sledgehammer. I've smashed up three old pieces of furniture into pieces small enough to be placed into trashbags that were then hauled away free of charge. And on top of saving money, it's a great way to relieve some of the stress you accumulate while riding rush-hour trains, getting bitched out by your bucho, etc.
Finally, there is an extra charge that I agree with.
Finally, there is something I would not mind paying a little extra for.
Finally, there is an extra charge that is not some Harvard Graduate's way to make me pay for something I should have gotten for free.
I like the idea of computer manufacturers actually being responsible for something.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
We have paid such a fee for all electrical appliances the past few years. If your TV is to be scrapped, you just have to go to a shop that sells TVs and give it to them. You don't have to buy anything there, and you don't even need to have bought it there in the first place. Buy anywhere, return anywhere. The fee is much smaller, approx $10.
That way, both poor countries and linux will grow more and more powerful
I think phrasing it that way makes it much less likely to happen.
Bored with karma, be a fan/freak
Second, capitalist countries pollute far more than even your so-called "socialist" countries. Look at say CO2 emission from USSR vs USA over the last 50 years. Look at oil consumption. And so on.
Really? Check what happened when the Berlin Wall fell. The first West Germans who got into East Germany factories were appalled at the industrial equipment that they were using; apparently, it was several decades obsolete, and thus it lacked any kind of environmental concern and polluted much more that their western counterparts.
For another example, let's check the gas emission of a 1988 Trabant compared to an 1988 VW, okay? Let's see which one pollutes more.
In addition, the reason there are no environmental groups in your so-called "socialist" countries is because of totalitarianism--it has nothing to do with "socialism"
And of course, the triumph of socialism in all those eastern european countries was due entirely to pacific means; totalitarian repression had nothing to do with it...
I find it unbelievable that a Pentium that used to cost > $1K several years ago and yet the computer manufacturers can not salvage the working parts and use them elsewhere. Like electonics in a TV, VCR, cable modem, pay phone or refrigirator. In the "worst" case, they can make some cheap PCs for the poor countries.
I think the current situation is just lazy thinking. At minimum, it should be possible for a vendor to pay for shipping and offer a small rebate on the next purchase. For sure, it might mean changes in the design of the PCs so that they are easier to recycle later. For example, modular motherboard with self-test on each module and a diode that lights up if it's still functioning.
If the price hike is implicit, manufacturers will have incentive to make products that are easier to recycle, so that they can offer a price cut. Government-standardized fee gives consumer less incentive to recycle or producer to cut costs.
...for a number of years now, on all consumer electronics. Seems to work there.
That's something we've had for years in the Netherlands now. It's called the verwijderingsbijdrage, which would translate to English as "removal fee". But then again, our government taxes everything it can -- and the rest...
Woefdram, l'apprenti sorcier
We something similar over here, only sinds 01/2001
http://www.recupel.be/nl/home.htm
go belgium!
Japan used to use garbage and other waste products to assist in the creation of landfill to extend their usable land at the parimiter of the country. That is, is they used to dump crap in the water and cap it off with pavement/rock. I suspect they have curbed this habit in recent times due to envirenmental concerns, but they DO have a place to dump garbage. ;)
But hell, the US used to do the same thing but eventually ceased. I am not sure why
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
Japan has plenty of land. The countryside is emptying out adn you can buy cheap land and houses out there. The problem is that everyone wants to live in the same corridor roughly from Tokyo/Yokohama down to Osaka. They want to be there because the gov't in their infinite wisdom decided that's where ALL the industry should be. Thus, thats where the jobs are.
I don't know by what measure you call Singapore capitalist; more than 60% of its economy is controlled by the government (scroll through the message to the part about government-linked companies; sorry, lazy to find and link to the original reports, but I can assure you, this bit is a fair citation) Yes, it scores high on that economic freedom list, but remember, that's only a reflection of policy initiatives; it's not a measure of, say, how many companies are there on the ground.
Which, in a way, should make you happy; very easy to argue that sg has better environment controls than any of its neighbours.
But all the same, I find your main argument troublesome; you seem to be suggesting that non-totalitarian socialist countries, somehow, have better environment protection than capitalist ones. As a citizen of a country that was once constitutionally-mandated to be socialist, I can't disagree more:- if any, environmental parameters in India have been degrading rapidly for the last 20 years.
Could it be, then, that this has more to do with pro-active governance than economic ideologies?
More than mere navel gazing.
Though I agree with the sentiment, I disagree with your logic. So I break it down. Sorry.
Recycling is sort of a pet-peeve of mine, though. It's not that I'm against recycling. I think it's very sensible. The problem is, the end user/customer usually gets saddled with its costs, and doesn't see a direct benefit from it.
No matter what you purchase, you will get saddled with the cost of the producer doing business. If you pay this recycle fee by form of a tax to the consumer, you would be indignant. But if it is applied to the producer by form of some regulated requirement, you would think your getting a good deal.But in the end, you still pay.
I am unsure what you are getting at with the next one, it could be your right, so I will not detract from it.
But I will cover this one:
If a manufacturer chooses to build products that can cause problems if they aren't recycled, it seems like it should be part of THEIR responsibility to cover the costs.
Again, if the product is something you will purchase,YOU will cover the cost. It doesnt matter what form this charge comes in. In the event that the company in question covers the cost then they didnt do the math very well and they will have deep pockets, good lawyers, or go out of bussiness.
The only choice you can hope to have is what you purchase. The stupid ass laws that you are complaining about are designed to cover those people who cannot make the hard decisions for themselves.
People like me. I havent decided if I give a shit, I just understand the logic(or so I think).
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
On all household goods. Quite small amounts, ranging from a couple of Euros up to twenty or so for larger items.
For PCs, printers, but also DVD players, TVs, fridges, cookers, etc. If it hums and clicks, it gets the "Recyclagebijdrage", a tax by any other name but well worthwile.
Recyling in Belgium is quite advanced, and for the same kind of reasons as in Japan - there is no more room to dump stuff in big holes. Ironically, a world leader in garbage-to-energy powerstations, the Belgian company Seghers, went bankrupt last year. Recycling means these huge "burn it all, really clean" stations are no longer the best solution.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
.... charging the buyer when he actually buys the thing?
Like most sales or VAT taxes actually.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Well at least (s)he posted AC so he's not really karma whoring.
If I remember correctly there is just the kind of law you describe in Germany.
Anyway, the only thing you pay after the 5 USD is the petrol for the trip to Brobekk in Oslo where the center is. As a private person, you can deliver 2,5 m3 of used computer equipment at the time. If you are or represent a business entity, the fee is 15 USD per delivery.
And I was already dreaming I could "recycle" someone's, say, AlBook or TiBook, and they would pay me to take it...
is almost the same. You pay a little fee when you purchase a electric powered product. When you want to dispose it, you can deliver it to a recycle point for free. Bigger machines like (diswashers) are collected for free also from your house address. When you buy a new fridge, the suplpier of the new machine is obligated to collect your old machinery for free.
This will hopefully drive some R&D into ways to extend the life of older components. 5 or more years ago, we used to buy $15 adapters which would allow us to "stack" alot of old RAM into one memory slot - ie recycle/renew our investment. Alot of us did it, and saved money. I hope that OS level "clustering" technologies will eventually do this for us.
Why the hell should I pay someone to take stuff away from me? If anything, they should be paying me to let them have it!
Currently, however, it is cheaper for manufacturers to mine raw materials out of the ground than to recycle existing materials. However, the Earth's resources really belong to our children and their children, so mining is really a form of theft {albeit from victims who may not yet have been born}. This is only likely to change when raw materials start becoming scarce, but by that time it may well be too late.
What is required is a tax on the extraction of virgin raw materials where a recycled substitute is available: a tax so heavy that manufacturing companies will pay good money for anything they can recycle, in order to avoid as far as possible having to mine new raw materials. It would also be necessary to place a tax {or an outright ban - cf. ivory} on imported finished goods made where virgin material extraction was untaxed.
Of course this will affect domestic and international trade. So did the abolition of slavery. What's your point? Just because you've been getting away with doing something which is so obviously wrong for a long time, does not make it right.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I dunno. Our company is small and we have scored two free servers (albeit a few years old) out of the trash in our building.
This wouldn't happen if there was a "recycle your computer" depot.
Seems to me that this is a ploy by the manufacturers to get thier hands on the secondary market for used machines.
The EU has had a recycling directive since 2001 which obligates electronic goods manufacturers to calculate in the cost of recycling. The goal of the law is to ensure that electronics (which are by design heavily polluting products) are priced at their actual cost to the world, instead of just at their manufacturing cost. This type of legislation provides incentives to manufacturers to make their manufacturing process more environmentally friendly (even if it costs more to produce things that way).
Price lists over here in Belgium specifically list the cost of recycling as a separated out component of the total price (like how the price without sales tax is listed too). Again, this is done so consumers would prefer environmentally friendly products because they can see the cost to the environment right there in the price list (and feel it in their wallet).
For all products, not just computers.
Why is it that when I buy a mcdonalds lunch I pay for the lunch, then I (as a taxpayer) pay for the landfill their disposable (and questionably useful) materials fill up? Why do I pay for a monitor then pay for the lead shielding and toxic metals to be properly disposed of?
Why not require mcdonalds to pay the cost of disposal? Why not require huggies to pay the cost of disposal? Why not require Dell to pay for the cost of disposal? Why not require every manufacturer to pay the cost of disposal for their packaging - heck, lets force them to make everything strictly either recyclable or biodegradable.
Economically incentivize them to make useful, recyclable or biodegradable packaging. The prices for us would raise what? a couple pennies, maybe a nickle? In the meantime we could end the ridiculous land fill phenomenon.
Why do we continue giving corporations all the desireable rights of individuals, but deny them any of the responsibilities?
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
E-Scrap, Inc. has been at this for some time here in Miami. In fact, they just recently held an 'Electronics Recycling Awareness' event at the Museum. Similarly, they charge a fee for each 'donation', but in many cases it is tax-deductable.
Does recycling here mean simply shipping the computers to Thailand, or other countries, that throw the old computers on landfills? I understand Japan pretty much does the same thing with old cars; they sell them overseas.
The obvious problem being the polluting effects of said objects not being offset by such action
North Carolina already has a "white goods" tax (you pay a tax when you buy a new refrigerator or washing machine), and I think most states have a disposal fee when you buy new tires for the car ($1 per tire in NC). I wouldn't really have a problem paying $5 extra for each monitor & computer as long as I knew the money was really going to be used for recycling, and not going into the state's General Fund. It would also be helpful if the adjoining states had similar laws.
Another question to be answered is "Who would do the recycling"? Would a company like Waste Management want to get into the business? Or would someone like Goodwill Industries, or maybe one of the cardiac rehabilitation centers want to get started disassembling the computers? The principle cost would be labor, not supplies or materials, and as everyone knows, labor in the US isn't cheap.
Would people in the US be OK with taking advantage of NAFTA and sending our electronic trash to Mexico or Canada for recycling?
Chip H.
we need common, reusable containers for all these things -- like Ontario's Beer Bottle program. Pay the deposit on a glass bottle (or plastic refillable bottle)... and return it for a full unit.
this should be the case for butter, pop, chips, cream-corn, etc.
stuff that doesnt need packaging shouldnt have it... bread for instance.
"First of all, not many people with any knowledge of socialism would consider those countries as socialist."
Wrong. The overwhelming majority of socialists consider these places to be socialist.
"Even the enemies of Marxism do not consider Iraq to be socialist."
The Ba'ath party is a socialist party. It had the hallmarks of socialism: government control of the economy to serve the needs of the elites.
"Countries like Saudi Arabia (a close friend of USA incidentally) is far more capitalist than Canada!"
No, Saudi Arabia is much more mercantilism. It is yet another form of fascism where the state controls the economy.
"If you count all the capitalist countries, you'll find that they lack many environmental groups."
No, they have the most groups. The places that are the most socialist (Cuba, etc) have banned environmental groups outright.
"In addition, the reason there are no environmental groups in [socialist] countries is because of totalitarianism--it has nothing to do with "socialism""
It has everything to do with socialism. Socialism abhors grass-roots groups and other structures where the people can gain power without control and permission of the ruling elites. Hence, they cannot be allowed: they are all banned in the countries that are most socialist.
Don't forget that totalitarianism and socialism go hand in hand. You can't have totalitarianism without socialism. Once you have complete socialism, you are most of the way to totalitarianism (a government that makes all your economic decisions pretty much holds your leash).
I dunno, I live in Sweden now and for example if you buy a coke can or bottle you pay a small extra fee (like 5 cents for a can, 50 cents for a large bottle), and when you later return them to a shop (all supermarkets have recycling stations) to recycle you get that money back. It's not a new system, when I lived in USSR (back in the late 80's early 90's), even in that backward ass communist country you could return 3 empty bottles of pepsi (which was the only coke-like drink at the time) and get one new full one. (or get money for them, which was 1/3 of the price of a full bottle)
I can't believe that the US is still so backward that they don't have similar programmes. Or am I wrong?
Come on guys, even the soviets had it figured out!
When setting up my home network, my first configuration had my 486-66DX acting as a firewall router. It was plenty fast enough for the job and was free. However, we pay 8 cents/kwhr for electricity (which is effectively 24 cents/kwhr in 2 months of the summer for the A/C to remove the heat). At 100W - 200W, that adds up. I soon replaced it with a Linksys NAT firewall/router/switch at 10W. I figured it would pay for itself in about a year (I paid $80 for it at the time) just in electricity savings.
The drawback is that the Linksys firewall is far less capable than iptables. However, I just run iptables on the server to complement the NAT firewall. Since the Linksys has so few options to configure, this is very little extra admin.
Well, actually, I can't figure out exactly why things changed - but when I was a kid (in the 1970's), I remember all the soda in glass bottles having 5 cent deposits on it. My parents would always put the empty bottles back in the cardboard carriers they were brought home in, and take the carriers filled with empties back to the store the next time they went shopping.
When they started going to plastic 2 litre bottles and even plastic 1 litres, the deposits vanished.
I don't ever recall deposits on aluminum soda cans, but it used to be, lots of places (at least where I lived) had these trailers they'd park on grocery store parking lots. You'd bring your bags full of aluminum cans, dump them onto the conveyor belt, and the thing would tally up what you dropped off and spit out some cash for you.
I haven't seen any of those trailers in at least 5 or 6 years though. Now, we have a couple of "community recycling centers" where you're supposed to drop off such items as aluminum cans or 1 gallon plastic milk containers, but they don't pay you a thing for doing it. It's strictly done on a volunteer basis. We did it a couple times, just to be a "good citizen", but soon realized the hassle wasn't worth it. You'd end up with a garage cluttered with empty soda cans attracting bees and flies (unless you actually rinsed out each and every empty can with water first), and it cost you time and gas to bring the stuff out there.
I was visiting friends in a college town a couple years ago, and noticed they were doing deposits (7 cents or so?) on beer cans. So I guess some cities still do this sort of thing, on a case by case basis. I've never seen a deposit on a beer can where I live though.
It's not a new system, when I lived in USSR (back in the late 80's early 90's), even in that backward ass communist country you could return 3 empty bottles of pepsi (which was the only coke-like drink at the time) and get one new full one.
So what you're saying is...
In Soviet Russia, the bottles recycle you!
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Yes, your logic is correct - but I'm talking about doing the things which motivate people.
It's fine to speak of the "big picture" and how "recycling helps you have cleaner air and water" - but that's far too broad a scope for most people to take seriously. (Let's face it: You and I both know that there's enough clean air and water to last us the rest of our lives, whether we throw away our aluminum cans or recycle them. If we take an attitude of "let future generations fend for themselves" - then recycling is going to offer us nothing.)
On the other hand, when you see recycling centers paying you cold, hard cash in return for the garbage you drop off, or you get rewarded with new sodas for every X number of empties you return, that's motivating.
By forcing the producers of goods to provide for their recycling, you at least potentially gain the cost advantage that it's being done by one, central place. (EG. Dell can probably work out a more cost-effective contract for recycling all the used monitors they ever sold in 2002 than what you or I would pay, individually, to find someone we could pay to properly dispose of them/recycle them.)
Actually, several of my machines have these "Gomi Fee Paid" stickers on them - They were there when I grabbed the boxes from the curb and will stay on in case I ever need to pitch them.
Pretty good system, IMHO.
There's also usually a guy in the neighborhood with a truck and a loudspeaker saying that he'll haul away any electronic equipment for free.
-- My Weblog.
So, can I recycle them? Do I send them back to the manufacturer to get them refurbished? What if I don't want the hardware anymore? Should I just go ahead and do an "Ask Slashdot"?
Yez komrade!
It's weird that the deposit thing disappeared when plastic bottles came around.
Here (Sweden) almost all glass and plastic bottles can be recycled in every convenience store that sells them.
And for stuff that is recyclable but not covered with deposits like pizza cartons and milk containers, you can find special recycling container-centers within every 10 block radius or so, at least in major cities, so its most often within a few minutes walk from your apt.
Nowdays the systems for returning bottles and things are pretty advanced, with nice lcd screens and stuff. You can but in a crate of bottles and it will even notice if you have one or two missing from the crate, so you'll get less cash.
The large plastic bottles are simply inserted one by one into a machine and you get cash in the form of a reciept which you can give to the cashier and (s)he will give you the cash.
It's a very good system and encourages most people to recycle the cans and bottles, i mean it doesnt cost anything to take your used coke cans or bottles with you to the store when you go to get new ones...
I think the japanese should have made it so you actually get the recycling fee BACK when you turn in your comp, so you pay like 100$ extra for your comp, and when you return it you get the 100$ back..now that would roxorz... Right now it seems that since the fee is unavoidable there really isnt much incentive to bother recycling. Although since it seems that you can actually have them come and pick the stuff up, it might actually work.
Socialism abhors grass-roots groups and other structures where the people can gain power without control and permission of the ruling elites.
Look at all the so-called socialist revolutions. You'll find that they were driven by the "grass-roots". Check the Cuban revolution, Russian revolution, and the Communist revolution. You'll find that these revolutions were INITIALLY supported by the general population.
Hence, they cannot be allowed: they are all banned in the countries that are most socialist.
They are banned once totalitarians or some dictator takes over. At that point, it is hardly socialism--rather it's totalitarianism.
You can't have totalitarianism without socialism.
This clearly shows your lack of understanding of econopolitical systems. Totalitarianism has nothing to do with socialism (since it doesn't have anything to do with economics). For instance, you can practice totalitarianism on top of capitalism (as Nazis did). You could run totalitarian system regardless of what happens in economics.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
My message I was typing up was lost so I'm going to restart :( ...
Firstly, the study that I referred to was probably the same one that you referenced. It sounds familiar, although it was by the CATO institute (maybe the Heritage Foundation is related to CATO? don't know).
Second, polices are what matter. That's what determines where a govt or a country, or a city, or whatever places on the econopolitical spectrum. When you say Singapore is very capitalistic but doesn't have the companies to show for it, it doesn't matter. Europe is considered more "socialist" yet has more "companies on the ground". Policies and ideals are what matter!
Thirdly, India can hardly be considered socialist. Some regions perhaps; some elements maybe; but overall, it is hardly socialist. Pick up any book on "socialism" and hardly any consider India to be socialist. It has some socialist ideals (mostly from people like Gandhi and others from the 40's and 50's) but it is definitely not socialist. If anything it is further away from socialism than many others. For instance, Canada is more "socialist" than India, even though Canada is running capitalism. The reason India cannot be considered socialist of any sort is because the workers NEVER gained power. The only time workers had any say was during the indepence when Gandhi relied on the workers. BUT that was only because those controlling the country were British (and thier India proxies). After the independence movement, all elements of socialism slowly but surely removed. You can tell this by the parties in power who only consider workers to be pawns (in contrast, look during indepence and pre-indepence). Needless to say, RIGHT NOW, India is hardly "socialist" due to the emergence of Hindu fundamentalism. Until the workers are emancipated, I, as well as most on the left, would not consider India to be "socialist".
Could it be, then, that this has more to do with pro-active governance than economic ideologies?
Of course, pro-environmental polices will help--regardless of system. However, economics play a MASSIVE role. Capitalism, for instance, is inherently anti-environmental. This is necessarily so because profit is placed ahead of the environment (among other things). All the capitalistic free-trade agreements being signed actually REDUCE environmental protections--not increase it. Only a free market worshipping capitalist would claim that capitalism actually helps the environment! Of course, this shouldn't be surprising given that nearly all (capitalist) economists count the cost to the environment as ZERO. Even when corporations are seen to help the environment, they are only doing it for public relations.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
What's the big fuss about it? It's already done with home appliances.When you go and buy something new they ask you if you want to throw away your old one.
You still haven't set the parameters of debate. If you disagree with my attempts at defining socialism, do it for me. Tell me, in precise terms (not the vague "Oh the workers are getting trampled!" strawman), how you rate countries on a socialist scale.
That said, I hate saying this, you seem to be confused. First you say policies and ideals matter the most, and then you say it doesn't matter if India is constitutionally-mandated to be socialist; workers have been "trampled" upon anyway.
So what matters:- policies and ideals, or ground reality?
More than mere navel gazing.
Tight quarters definately raise the quality of the trash. It is pretty common to see some really nice things thrown out on the curb in Manhattan. You could easily furnish your apartment from it. The problem is - can you get it in the trunk of a taxi to get it home?
About two years ago a guy picked up a painting in the trash on the street that he liked the looks of. when a friend said "That looks like a (insert name of obscure artist]" he had it appraised and it turned out to be worth about $15,000. Made the news.
Then of course there is the story this summer of the art appraiser who accidentally left a Picasso drawing on the subway. He got it back a few days later. But that wasn't actually trash, just lost.
... or just leave DOS/Windows on them and send them to your enemies.
"Capitalism, for instance, is inherently anti-environmental. This is necessarily so because profit is placed ahead of the environment (among other things)."
No, capitalism does not place profits first. It places the will of the people first. In capitalism, each person is allowed to make decisions (a big contrast to socialism, where the government forces its will on everyone). If the people happen to be "pro-environment", capitalism leaves them free to make economic decisions to serve this end.
"Only a free market worshipping capitalist would claim that capitalism actually helps the environment!"
No, this claim is only made by those aware of the reality of the situation, where it turns out that the environmental situation is far worse in the most socialist countries (i.e. North Korea) and is the best in the most capitalist countries (i.e. United States).
"Even when corporations are seen to help the environment, they are only doing it for public relations."
That is just an example of how it works. If the people are "pro-environment", their decisions only favor those who are also pro-environment.
"The reason India cannot be considered socialist of any sort is because the workers NEVER gained power"
Socialism is about the workers losing power and the elites gaining it. The more power the workers have in India, the less socialist it is. The typical country that is very strongly socialist has long since banned labor organizations entirely.
"After the independence movement, all elements of socialism slowly but surely removed. "
This shows that India is a truly progressive place.
"Look at all the so-called socialist revolutions. You'll find that they were driven by the "grass-roots"."
I notice that the example of socialist places you name are the genocidal Stalinist regimes, very similar to North Korea.
"Check the Cuban revolution"
This was not a revolution, but was in fact a Soviet invasion and conquest.
"Russian revolution"
The Russian revolution had different phases. The later socialist phase had nothing to do with the grass-roots. The most onerous part involved Lenin and his thugs overthrowing the government because they lost the election.
"and the Communist revolution. You'll find that these revolutions were INITIALLY supported by the general population."
Even then, the governments quickly banned grass roots groups.
Manufacturers choose to build products they believe people will buy. If consumers choose to buy a product it follows that they are also "buying" responsibility for the outcome of their choice. That includes disposal of all unwanted parts, packaging, and products which have outlived their usefulness. It doesn't matter WHO pays initially for the disposal, the cost will naturally be borne by the consumer. Everything the manufacturer pays for winds up in the price of the product. People offended by the cost of recycling should go to work in the recycling industry for a while.
This was not a revolution, but was in fact a Soviet invasion and conquest.
Explain...
Even then, the governments quickly banned grass roots groups.
The govt banned the groups once it started becoming totalitarian. You cannot blame the system for this, when the system has been drastically altered... This is just like how in say Africa, a lot of the independence, anti-colonial, movements were driven by the people (i.e. general population) but once the colonialists were driven out, some people converted the country into a dictatorship. You can hardly claim that the anti-colonialist movement was totalitarian.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
"Explain..."
The "Revolution" in Cuba was merely the process of the USSR annexing it as a colony.
"The govt banned the groups once it started becoming totalitarian"
Which was usually early on, and as fast as they could manage. Typically, they would fight alongside the grassroots groups if the groups could help them achieve absolute power. Once the socialists/communists gained control, the liquidation of opponents began.
"You can hardly claim that the anti-colonialist movement was totalitarian."
In general, it was not. However, some of the "liberation" groups were actually Soviet-funded colonial armies. They were as such pro-colonial movements.
The total number of Ba'ath Socialists in Syria and Saddam-era Iraq approaches 3 million. That's 3 million socialists.
The numbers of USSR and Red China socialists have numbered in the hundreds of millions: clearly, the majority definition of socialism.
I tend to let the socialists define socialism, and the dominant branch is clearly the totalitarian and genocidal and imperialist kind evidenced in these places.
As a professional computer recycler, I have to warn Slashdot that I believe part of the investment by original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) into shredding technologies is not an environmental "win". In the USA, the used car market is seven times larger than the new car market... that is considered by some manufacturers to be "market cannabalization"... in other words, used equipment competes with sales of new equipment. Even if 4/5 used computer buyers (esp. overseas) cannot AFFORD a new computer, the one who will buy new if the used ones are destroyed creates market share. HP is particularly concerned with the toner cartridge refurbishing business, and has invested heavily into computer takeback-shredding in California. HP also paid the Chinese EPA $6M to go arrest toner cartridge refillers in Ninhai (the Chinese EPA took away the refurbished cartridges - and BURNED them. A real win for the environment, hey?) Bottom line - if you can get a new buyer to prepay for computer recycling, they are less likely to put the PC on ebay, because takeback is more convenient. Don't even get me started on Nike's "reuse a shoe" effort (taking back used tennis shoes - a major export by Salvation Army to Africa - and shredding them to make "recycled asphalt". Good thing to replace all those tires that were going into the rubberized asphalt, hey.) retroworks
The "Revolution" in Cuba was merely the process of the USSR annexing it as a colony.
Let's all take your word for it *rollseyes* If it was a colony, did it ever gain indepence from USSR? Or, in your distorted views, does Putin still control Cuba?
Which was usually early on, and as fast as they could manage. Typically, they would fight alongside the grassroots groups if the groups could help them achieve absolute power. Once the socialists/communists gained control, the liquidation of opponents began.
It was not as soon as you are implying. Also, there is a difference between socialists and communists in some of these revolutions. For instance, the Russian revolution actually involved a counter-revolution. I am guessing you don't know about any of those things.
In general, it was not. However, some of the "liberation" groups were actually Soviet-funded colonial armies. They were as such pro-colonial movements.
That pretty much proves my point. Many of these so-called Communist movements were nothing more than anti-imperial, anti-colonial movements.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
All you ever say is what you AREN'T. My conclusion is that what you ARE is confused.
I came to a similar conclusion about you a while ago. Let's just end this discussion... we'll meet again...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
What a stunning rebuttal.
I'm glad you like it...maybe your lack of intelligence in the subject matter is made up with your acknowledgement here ;)
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Actually, the subject matter at hand is you being a dumbass. Your trail of posts speaks for itself. On this topic, as I have read your history, I am quite erudite. Ask around - you are a buffoon.
I suspect that only a buffoon would carry on a conversation with another buffoon... I guess that makes it two of us...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
"Let's all take your word for it *rollseyes* If it was a colony, did it ever gain indepence from USSR? Or, in your distorted views, does Putin still control Cuba?"
When the USSR fell, all of its colonies and territories became independent of the USSR (including the Russian Federation which also seceded from the USSR). Putin is the leader of a nation that seceded from the USSR. Why would he rule other nations which also became independent when the USSR vanished?
"Many of these so-called Communist movements were nothing more than anti-imperial, anti-colonial movements."
Every Communist movement was a pro-imperial pro-colonial movement. You cannot name one that is not: from the Soviet annexation of Nicaragua to the Russian Revolution (which ended with the communists re-establishing Empire, and invading former Soviet colonies). Even the Chinese revolution was imperialist: did not take them long to start aggression against Tibet.
If an anti-colonial movement was Communist, it merely meant "We are going to kick out France/Angola/Spain and instead have the USSR as our colonial overlord.". As opposed to "lets kick out all colonialists"
They, for one, welcomed their new Soviet overlords.
"Also, there is a difference between socialists and communists in some of these revolutions. For instance, the Russian revolution actually involved a counter-revolution. I am guessing you don't know about any of those things."
Yes, the counter-revolution is well known. The Russian Revolution started to give the people a measure of freedom, even a democratic government. Progress was turned back when Lenin overthrew the democratic government, enslaved people even worse than the Tsars did, and killed hundreds of thousands in reprisals.