Mad Hatter Preview - Sun Java Desktop System Demo

bengine writes "According to this article, Sun Java Desktop System is a good product overall, built on the well-established SuSE system with integration from Sun. It delivers what appears to be a very useful desktop OS and it has the chance to make a dent in the Windows monopoly. But Sun will have to differentiate itself on its quality, hardware, services and reputation. That means a lot of hard work, so the key questions will be how well they execute their strategy, how much public acceptance they gain and what message they convey through public venues." This makes a good companion to the earlier story linking to Mad Hatter screenshots.

Comments

that was quick

[colinleroy]

wow, already slashdotted? the whole site is a 403.

It's still GNOME.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is there a need to preview so many GNOME Desktops under different name ? GNOME is GNOME no matter what company forks it. As soon as GNOME 2.6 comes out SUN, Ximian or Red Hat gonna fork it again for their Desktop. So if you want to know how each new GNOME looks like then please go and look inside the real GNOME and not some lame forks which changes anyways as soon as the core releases a new version.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, but those forks by professsional companies will have that clean and polished look and feel to them and not some kludge some by script kiddie.

not to mention documentation is likely to be improved.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[swordboy]

GNOME is GNOME no matter what company forks it.

Ummm... No...

Big Businesses want other Big Businesses to back their software. You won't see any announcements from GM stating that they've decided to run Linux From Scratch or Gentoo. With Sun, you've got a reputable brick-and-mortar establishment to go to when it breaks.

Unfortunately for Sun, they are quickly losing their big-business reputation. This is their last hope, IMHO.

Off topic - if Apple were to port OSX to X86 commodity hardware, I'm sure that we'd have a lot of businesses jumping on board - especially in the light of the "Homogenous Windows Environments Are Bad" article. It just makes good sense.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[sufehmi]

What counts are the extra customizations that's done to it. It may be small things here-and-there, but overall, it may differentiate a distro significantly than others.

If you aim at Windows desktop, you need to make the transition as painless as possible.
The list is long - relevant right-click menus, copy/paste that works across all apps, ability to create shortcuts on desktop easily, consistent drag-and-drop, etc, etc.

Also for corporations, there are other things that counts.

Some companies may already implemented centralized workstations management - ZENworks, MS-SMS, etc. These software enable IT depts to efficiently manage thousands of desktop with minimum number of staff.
I've personally used ZENworks and I can say that I haven't found anything similar on Linux - CMIIW.
You can kinda centrally manage your workstations by implementing LTSP (and others), but this tops out at 150 workstations per server. When you have 15000 desktop, the last thing you need is additional 100 servers to manage.
Also it may prove too bandwidth-intensive for WAN-wide deployment.

Another issue is authentication.
For example, for Novell customers, they'll have problems. There are various Novell client for Linux, but they may only work using IPX (IPX is all trouble on WAN), and/or still in beta version, and/or doesn't provide access to printers, etc.
Also authenticating to the latest version of ActiveDirectory - I don't know if SAMBA support it, but I don't think so.
Etc.

If a company can provide the solution to these kind of issues, especially since Sun is aiming at corporate market (I believe), then they'll have a winner.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[Disevidence]

If sun wants to customise GNOME, why stop them? Its not the end of the world when someone forks a open-source project.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[axxackall]

With Sun, you've got a reputable brick-and-mortar establishment to go to when it breaks.

Ummm... No...

I've never seen any good GUI solution from Sun. Open Office, Netbeans - they all are slow and crashy. No need to mention the great fiasco of SWING.

And the best GNOME I've ever used was 1.4 vanilla (from CVS). Thanks to Sun contributions, GNOME 2 is less usable. Of course, Sun's "proprietary" fork doesn't fix the usability problem either.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[dalutong]

I doubt that OSX on X86 commodity hardware would be nearly as good as it seems to be on Apple hardware.

I understand that BSD runs well on i386, but BSD doesn't have all of the nice features of OSX.

When you get down to things like suporting all firewire devices on all the different x86 firewire controllers and having graphics run as well as graphics do but on ati mach 64s.... that it becomes a little less polished. (if it was sold by a big company on x86 hardware it might be better... then they could pick the best hardware for the job.)

Re:It's still GNOME.

[javatips]

I don't want to repeat myself so check this. It amazingly fast and did not crash (at least during the demo).

Re:It's still GNOME.

[AKAImBatman]

> Thanks to Sun contributions, GNOME 2 is less usable. Of
> course, Sun's "proprietary" fork doesn't fix the usability
> problem either.

This has *got* to be a troll. Sun's GNOME is the only one I've found that works right out of the box. Just try to make use of a vanilla GNOME 2.x. All kinds of weird problems (like the inability for normal users to edit their own menu items, package incompatibilities, crashes, the forever unchangeable desktop background, etc.) crop up to make your life full of pain and anguish. None of the distro GNOMEs are much better. RedHat 8, for example, looks good, but if you try to install a menu icon for a single user, it wipes out the entire system menu! ARRRGGHHH!!!

Sun GNOME OTOH, just works (TM). The system that is installed is about as simple as can be, yet feature rich. And ALL features that are included actually work (such as FREAKING MENU ITEMS!). Now if you want to talk vanilla KDE, we can talk about how it just works(TM) out of the box without support from big Unix vendors like Sun.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[Ender Ryan]

Lol, yeah, those GNOME developers sure are a bunch of script kiddies!

Whoever modded the parent "Insightful" needs a severe beating...

Re:It's still GNOME.

[SoTuA]

Off topic - if Apple were to port OSX to X86 commodity hardware, I'm sure that we'd have a lot of businesses jumping on board - especially in the light of the "Homogenous Windows Environments Are Bad" article. It just makes good sense.

And there goes all the Apple hardware business... *poof*!

If people can get OsX with powerful but cheaper x86 hardware, the only remaining customers of apple hardware would be the ones who do it for the "cool" factor.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[turgid]

Off topic - if Apple were to port OSX to X86 commodity hardware, I'm sure that we'd have a lot of businesses jumping on board - especially in the light of the "Homogenous Windows Environments Are Bad" article. It just makes good sense.

The G5 is selling like hot cakes. They can't make enough of them. Porting to x86 wouldn't make the blind bit of difference. 32-bit is going the way of the dodo. The G5 is 64-bit, and IBM has an amazing roadmap going forward. People are going Apple in their droves. Most people want a nice, shiny, easy-to-use, integrated and fast system. That's what Apple is selling. I don't work for Apple :-(

Re:It's still GNOME.

[axxackall]

Cannot see the link to download and try. And have seen any GUI application being big enough AND stable AND fast AND written on java. Therefore I have no facts to believe you.

Hmm, giving such link (I man for download that thing) you may prove something that can turn upside down the understanding of the whole industry of how to compare the performance (and stability) of Java GUI vs C-written GUI applications. Becase as for now the only people who think that big Java GUI applications can be as reliable and fast as C-written one are the people who don't see anything else besides Java due to technological blindness or other reasons of having very closed mind.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[axxackall]

You haven't paid an attention of exactly I've been talking about.

Perhaps Sun has improved the installation of GNOME comparing to GNOME 2.x vanilla. But I was talking that all 2.x Gnomes are broken in usability comparing to the perfect 1.4.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[javatips]

So le me repeat myself. This link (can you see it) point to a RealOne video of a presentation demoing new stuff from Sun. If you skip to 1:01:00 (approx), the guy gives a demo of Java 3D desktop where you can see many video stream displayed in a 3D desktop. You'll see the guy rotate the window in "3D" without missing a single frame. At the same time the clip is displayed in it's window, you have a 3D icon displaying the same clip at the bottom of the screen (think Aqua zoomable icons on steroids).

For sure the whole code is not pure Java. They use Java 3D which itself sits on OpenGL (on Linux).

As for large Java application that are not slow and that do not crash, I can think of many : Eclipse, JBuilder, WebLogic, JBoss.

As of now the only people who think that big, stable, fast Java GUI apps do not exist are the people who don't see anything else beside C or C++ due to technological blindness or other reasons of having very closed mind.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[AKAImBatman]

No, I paid attention. Sun GNOME 1.4 was also better than vanilla. However, I didn't mention it because I didn't want to get into an argument about how much I hated 1.4 and that Nautilus was a major improvement even if it did crash half the time. Oh, and BTW. It STILL didn't work right.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[axxackall]

1. We are talking about Linux and GNOME here. What RealOne? My mozilla doesn't know what is it. Neither Nautilus. And nothing I can do manually on my Linux/PPC box about.

2. I don't belive any marketing video anyway. Untill I can download the source, build it and run it on my box.

3. Eclipse is not that big as the biggest part of it (GUI) is on native codes (it's not java).

4. Both JBuilder and Jboss are slow and crashy.

5. I don't have money to buy the license to run WebLogic or the hardware capable to host it. Too big. My friends who are using it are adding: it's faster then other ONLY when it response TO THE SAME REQUEST to millions of user (means on small workgroup scale it slower than even JBoss).

Re:It's still GNOME.

[javatips]

What, you never compiled MPlayer on your box? You are surely not a real geek! And you are not able to configure Mozilla to run your favorite media player when it hit a ".rm" file? Maybe you should try recompiling it!

Re:It's still GNOME.

[Facetious]

"You can kinda centrally manage your workstations by implementing LTSP (and others), but this tops out at 150 workstations per server. When you have 15000 desktop, the last thing you need is additional 100 servers to manage." No. If you use LTSP the 100 servers aren't "additional," they ARE what you manage. The desktops don't need administration because they are "thin clients."

Re:It's still GNOME.

[duffbeer703]

Why don't you download the Java Source and use your 3733t h4x0ring skills to recompile and make it faster!

Or use the GNU Java clone, it's GPL'd, so it must be faster.

Open Source != High performance

Re:It's still GNOME.

[axxackall]

Why don't you download the Java Source and use your 3733t h4x0ring skills to recompile and make it faster!

I've tried it several times. Each time I've ended-up either with Lisp machine, or with Erlang interpreter.

Or use the GNU Java clone, it's GPL'd, so it must be faster.

GPL is fast only if it's not Java.

Open Source != High performance

Here you're trolling.

Re:It's still GNOME.

[Anonymous Coward]

i'm fast coming to the conclusion that free software can get better support than that of the big companies..

try doing a google search for sunone application server (for a problem).. then do the same search for a problem with tomcat...

l8r

Re:It's still GNOME.

[sql*kitten]

You won't see any announcements from GM stating that they've decided to run Linux From Scratch or Gentoo.

A company the size of GM will have the capability to do that, if they wanted to. They'd simply say to EDS or Accenture, we'd like you to support this please - when you're talking 100,000 desktops, you can write your own ticket. The question is, would it be cheaper than supporting Windows? Even without retraining, probably not. Win2K is light years ahead of NT4 when it comes to mass management.

if Apple were to port OSX to X86 commodity hardware

Apple cannot port OSX to "x86 commodity hardware". That's not a slur on their engineers - no-one can. The reason is that part of the OSX value proposition is "it just works". You can only do that if your hardware platform is wholly known. One specific x86-based machine - yes. But "commodity", i.e. "cheapest" and OSX will have all the problems Windows has, namely, it's almost impossible to test every possible combination of hardware.

Article text.

[ideatrack]

I finally received the Mad Hatter Preview in the mail this weekend. I couldn't wait to get this demo out and actually test the software, hoping that this would answer some questions that I had about the product. I was somewhat surprised to find a Live CD version of Mad Hatter instead of an actual beta, but that's okay, I could still see what it was, even if I cannot truly install it. The truly nice thing about Live CD's is that they don't require that much space to get the flavor of the system. In other words, you really do not make any significant changes to an existing machine.

The folks at Sun were even nice enough to name the files that are created on your machine in the C: drive (for Windows types) or your Linux / partition. The files can be deleted when you are finished navigating the demo CD, which makes this a handy demo for anyone wanting to show the system to someone without having to carry a computer around to demo the product.

The demo is only available in English, but that is not a real problem for a native speaker. I suppose the foreign markets will see other versions become available when the Java(TM) Desktop System reaches GA. The functionality of the system is somewhat limited because it is a demo, but there are some interesting things that have been added to the GNOME2 based desktop.

The obvious additions include the Star Office 7 Office Suite, Sun Microsystems latest version of Star Office - the product which led to Open Office (actually I think it Was Star Office 5.2 originally). The Open Office Team and the Sun Microsystems developers must be working in Tandem to make their suites more accessible to the public. The only problem I have with the Live CD is that I cannot install the Star Office 7 product to demo it (it takes more space than is allocated for the install in demo mode). Other than this minor annoyance for demo purposes, the system works well.

There are several things that Sun has added into their desktop that are not standard and are third-party add-ons. For one thing, they do install and integrate many of the commercial plugins that most Linux distributions do not install by default. Among them are the Macromedia plugins, several music and audio plugins as well as Real Player plugins. All of these plugins are integrated with Mozilla 1.4 and work out of the box (or in this case, on the Live CD).

These third=party add-ons or add-ins (however you wish to say it) are licensed and those licenses are described within the Third Party License README file. The various license for each piece of the puzzle are there, and given in full, for your reading pleasure. For those of you that thought there might be some license from the SCO Group for whatever they are claiming - they are not mentioned at all (enough said about that sore subject).

The Sun team has done a polished job of integrating their software into the GNOME2 environment, and has made some very nice changes here and there. Some of the third party Java(TM) add-ons are rather "nice to have" if not fully functional on the Live CD. Among these is JDisk Report from JGoodies as licensed from the Karsten Lentzsch and included within the Live CD environment (though not functional there).

The effect of that product was viral, I did go out and download JDisk Report 1.1.1 for myself (it is Freeware) for my own disk analysis on my machines. It is a rather nice thing to have.

The desktop is nothing unfamiliar to anyone who has ever used a Linux system before, and I don't see it as a giant hurdle for anyone who is used to a Windows environment. Heck, if my wife can pick up a Linux box running with GNOME2 and not have a problem, I suppose anyone can. My wife has never considered herself a computer whiz, but she did appreciate the fact that Linux doesn't crash and for the most part is just a "pick up and go" OS that remains available. The only downtime we experienced this year has been due to outside factors. We have lost our cable several times due to the virus outbreaks that really slammed

Re:Article text.

[Anonymous Coward]

Page is slashdotted for the moment, please mod this up.

Re:Article text.

[DavidNWelton]

So it's a warmed over Suse desktop. What actually differentiates it from Suse aside from including some proprietary browser plugins and some java freeware?

Re:Article text.

[jeffkjo1]

With the nightmare that it is to install certain browser plugins in the downloadable version of SuSE 8.2, this is a feat in and of itself which makes the OS worth checking out.

Re:Article text.

[confused one]

Sun support.

Re:Article text.

[LarsWestergren]

Perhaps the author could have mentioned something about the price and support in the article?

I don't know if the price is official, or even finally decided yet. When I asked a Sun salesman a couple of weeks ago at the Networks Telecom Expo the price he mentioned was very reasonable, probably around $50-$100 if I remember correctly. That would include all licenses for included software such as Star Office of course.
He handed me a folder which states that the price includes 60 day installation support and one year of maintenance and feature upgrades, but the folder doesn't state any price. The folder doesn't include much else of interest, just a lot of salesspeak. I did get to try it out. It looked nice and was very quick and responsive, but I was a bit disappointed that it was just Yet Another Linux Distro with not much to distinguish it. It was only a beta though, and lots of the menues were empty because they hadn't finalised which Java and Linux apps they would include. Perhaps it will have something extra in the future.

Still, they had the best damn coffee at the expo, under a big "Java" banner. Delicious free latte! Mmm...

Re:Article text.

[anno1a]

I've actually gotten my hands on the installable beta. The install seems pretty decent. It's easy, and it leaves your windows drives alone, unless you tell it otherwise. Everything is extremely simple, with a little "detailed" button you can click, if you are an experienced user.

I was surprised to see that the installation automatically detected and installed the wireless network adapter on my laptop, something I haven't seen any other distribution do (even though the driver is ready in the kernel).

The rest of the installation went flawless (except for a hitch with starsuite, which for some reason was in chinese, but I'll leave that to the beta-testers).

For some reason SUN has decided to provide the Java Media Player as the default media player. This would be just fine, if it in any way matched with the overall system design, or if it could play all media, but a simple test proved that it couldn't even play a standard (if such a thing exists) divx file. It worked fine with Ogg Vorbis and mpeg though. I wasn't able to find a dvd-player, xmms wasn't installed, and I could find no other media players besides the already mentioned java media player. If they want to win on the desktop, one thing SUN seriously needs is the capability to play media files using a pretty functional player (xmms for music is the obvious choice).

The entire desktop is seemingly a clone of the basic windows desktop with "this computer", "Documents", "Network Places" and "Trash". Exactly as I remember windows, just with slightly altered names. You even have a control panel (called preferences) in "This Computer".

Another problem I will leave to the beta testers is the fact that my DVD-drive is both mounted as cdrom and dvd, and thus also shown as two icons.

All in all a slick O/S, though with a few bumps which are hopefully straightened out through beta-testing, with a very bad choice of multimedia player (If anyone from SUN read this, go punch the guy who chose java media player in the stomache, and point him to xmms, mplayer and xine instead!).

Re:Article text.

[AKAImBatman]

$50-$100 *is* the price. You can continue support year after year by continuing to pay the $50-$100. IIRC, it's $50 per employee if you have the Java Enterprise already, and $100 per employee if you don't.

Re:Article text.

[LarsWestergren]

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of the subscription type of licence, but as I said, it is not that much money...

Re:Article text.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the Live demo avaliable? I have cruised through sun's site and cannot find where i can register for a test version.

Re:Article text.

[rifter]

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of the subscription type of licence, but as I said, it is not that much money...

But this is not a subscription type license. If it was a subscription then after 1 year if you did not pay more money you would have to uninstall and destroy all copies of the product. This is not the case with the Mad Hatter. You can keep running it, but if you want support you have to pay. (Someone has to pay the phone bills and wages after all...)

Re:Article text.

[anno1a]

Ok, I'm confused.. How on earth did I get modded Troll for that one?

Re:Article text.

[c_spencer100]

Actually, Java, Flash, and Real Player (as well as pdf support with Adobe Acrobat) all come pre-installed and plugged in with Mozilla with SuSE 8.2 boxed sets. After installing, all you have to do is simply go to ftp.suse.com, they always provide packages for the latest release of Mozilla. Simply install the rpms, and voilla - you have Mozilla 1.4 with those plug-ins installed.

Re:Article text.

[DA-MAN]

> But this is not a subscription type license. If it was a subscription then after 1 year if you did not pay more money you would have to uninstall and destroy all copies of the product. This is not the case with the Mad Hatter. You can keep running it, but if you want support you have to pay. (Someone has to pay the phone bills and wages after all...)

What if I don't want support but do want updates (security fixes mostly)? I may be able to keep the software I got, but what good is it if any skr1pt k1dd13 can take over my desktop...

Re:Article text.

[Doomdark]

What actually differentiates it from Suse aside from including some proprietary browser plugins and some java freeware?

Sun branding and StarOffice? It's similar to distinction between Open Office and Star Office, or Mozilla and Netscape 7. Plus, "only" including some properietary add-ons may be good enough, if pricing, delivery, and most importantly, service, are on par with alternatives like SuSE.

Re:Article text.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't want to pay the minscule support fee, you can always update it yourself from the source code.

I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[tommasz]

This is clever, and it's nice to see that it works, but Java? Most people's experience with Java is waiting forever for some applet to load on a web page only to discover it tells them what time it is. I can't see how they're going to convince Joe Average that this is somehow a competitive advantage, no matter how smoothly integrated the entire package is.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[bersl2]

Most people's experience with Java is waiting forever for some applet to load on a web page only to discover it tells them what time it is.

Most people probably couldn't match Java's issues with the name. To them, it's just another faceless technology.

Also, these are the same people who put up with endless crashes and reboots in the Win9x series...

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[Khalid]

Sun Java Desktop System doesn't have much with Java, this is just "branding", Sun is trying to decline the Java brand in as many fields as they can.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people's experience with Java is waiting forever for some applet to load on a web page only to discover it tells them what time it is.

My experience with Java is that it rarely works like it was originally intended. The write-once, run anywhere philosophy is certainly dead with almost all major applications that use it as the language. Version incompatibilities, platform GUI differences, and broken browser plugin capabilities all lead to Java applications being just about the most horrible experience I have on the web. Almost all non-trivial java apps I've come across have required me to use Internet Explorer on Microsoft Windows running inside a VMware window to work properly. For example, Ciscoworks 2000 works... sort of. Until you start certain components like Campus Manager and the topology services. Big red X instead of the app coming up. Inconsistencies like this make everyone's view of Java lackluster at best.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[gbjbaanb]

Microsoft's been there, done that, and backtracked when they realised just how confused it made everyone.

Looks like Sun's marketing dept have been given the same instructions as MS did with .NET, its only a matter of time before we're all confused as hell, and Sun starts calling it something else.

why can't they learn from other's mistakes? Oh yes, its the marketing department, sorry...

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[PhantomBlot]

Whether or not Mad Hatter (Java Desktop System) makes a dent in the Windows install base is all a matter of how Sun approaches the who and the how of selling this. For the most part, the target would likely be Enterprise customers and not Joe Average (although Joe Average could buy one if he really wanted to I'm sure). If Sun goes after these customers with an agressive pricing strategy and with sound technical facts to back them up (easy to come by with the recent barrage of attacks on Windows machines), then perhaps they could do fairly well. So far the plan seems good. The platform itself is for the x86 although you can get all of the pieces for SPARC Solaris. Also, it is based on GNOME and all of those nice freebies out there (it is NOT a bunch of Java Apps so performance concerns are minimal). The licensing fees are astronomically low due to the fact that everything is based on an Open Source project. Really, this is why Joe Average is probably not the target audience since he could download all of this stuff for free and install it but the Enterprise customer is compelled to have a service agreement incase something goes wrong (which is largely why StarOffice manages to coexist with OpenOffice). Anyway, could it make a dent? If executed correctly, absolutely. Many of you out there are probably the same as me and have had no problem converting friends and families to apps like Mozilla from IE based on the simple fact that Mozilla is better. This is much the same...Sun just has to work a little harder to convince there audience because Windows is Windows...and that is sure to be a huge sticking point for most customers.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[Disevidence]

First of all, please preview and format.

Secondly, while it is based on Suse, there are a lot of "Third-Party" applications, so to speak, in the OS. Many Java utilities (in the article it leasts at least 4 standalone, IIRC), and Staroffice.

As for it being enterprise system, well.... all I can say is that the OS is clearly aimed at the Desktop level, as Sun are selling two different products, funnily enough named Desktop System, which is the one based on Linux and Enterprise System , which is the Solaris Version.

Im trying to work out where you are getting the enterprise angle from. The linux version is being marketed as the desktop system, so sprouting out nonsense like it being for Enterprise customers, when you yourself state its the desktop system, doesn't make sense.

Overall, you stated facts that are either wrong or obvious, so im wondering where your "insightful tag" came from.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[gfody]

MS's marketing blitz with .NET was purposely confusing so people didn't just assume it was another java.

Q: What is .NET?
A: .NET is everything you've always wanted......

Q: What is .NET?
A: .NET will empower your front office and integrate your.........

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[IANAAC]

Almost all non-trivial java apps I've come across have required me to use Internet Explorer on Microsoft Windows running inside a VMware window to work properly

That sound to me like the programmer happened to use MS's development tools, which are most certainly NOT write-once, run anywhere, no matter how much MS tries to convince us of that.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[rugwuk]

The Java enterprise systems is the stack fo software from Solaris all the way up through Sun ONE to the user app for the back end server and nothing to with the JDS (MadH). So the confusion has started already! Damn and I work for Sun!

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[hackstraw]

For the most part, the target would likely be Enterprise customers and not Joe Average

In the Sun article, there is a mention of CIOs wanting a more cost-effective, lower TCO, and higher security desktop, etc, etc. But, duh thats like saying that a CEO wants higher profits. What does an "Enterprise" customer want out of a desktop OS? I'd say:

1. It must work, and continue to work even if you patch the system
2. It has to work with exsisting document/file formats
3. It of course must be secure, cost-effective, etc
4. It must have centralized authentication/authorization
5. It must have an "Enterprise" level of installation. This is a biggy. Some kind of system where an updatable image can be maintained and trivially installed onto a new machine.
6. I'd like to see some kind of centralized preferences/custom settings that can follow you from machine to machine and survive an upgrade, etc.
7. It must be seamlessly upgradable.
8. It must have basic stuff that has been on other OSes like Drag and Drop that makes sense and works. It must have cut-n-paste that works. It must have a centralized and working printing system, etc. (The stuff that the Xerox star had in the late 70s and early 80s.)

Plus many more things that I can't think of offhand right now because I'm pretty hungover, but this isn't rocket science. Can't there be some kind of user and maintainer (sysadmin, techie, etc) survey of what people really want?

I'm personally sick of the "Linux on the desktop" saga. I've used it for years, but my uses are atypical because I use it to admin other UNIXy machines and only run a browser, pdf viewer, terminal windows and command line apps, and occasionally open office when some windows user sends me an office attachment. Why can't there be more action instead of talk on this topic? If I see another windows knockoff sluffed off as a "revolutionary" desktop system that has fewer than the above listed requirements, and is basically much worse than windows already, then I'll go postal. The desire/need is there for a working desktop system. There is _not_ a system that is near ideal yet. The closest that we have is windows. Windows has _many_ issues, but its no accident that it is dominant, and it will be no accident when its superceeded.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[JamesP]

I know I hate Java, but I guess this was a good idea, because of the cool factor...

"Java", cool ".NET", cooler!!! Of course most people know nothing, but still, cool!!!

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[An dochasac]

There is a difference. Think of these "branding" terms:

"Windows" Perfected by Xerox, Apple, Amiga and Sun before it was adopted and branded my Microsoft.
".Net"Sun was there, Netscape was there, Al Gore may have even involved in the beginnings of the internet. Microsoft was dragged kicking and screaming into "the Net" in the late 1990s, but that didn't stop Microsoft marketeers from trying to brand it when the NET hype-quotient reached a peak.
"Java"Invented by Sun, branded by Sun. Why shouldn't they call this a Java desktop? It's certainly a decent platform for running java client software, its less expensive than Microsoft based desktops and its unlikely Sun will actively try to break your Java client applications. Java is a decent technology for writing secure, stable applications. Sun shouldn't hide from this fact or let everyone else profit from it. Java will work even better when the desktop OS vendor isn't actively trying to break your applications. As for speed, try one of the built-in Java apps or any well-written Java app before you post. I find ImageJ (http://rsb.info.nih.gov/ij) as fast as Gimp or Photoshop on other platforms.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[PhantomBlot]

I aplogize for the formatting. That was my first post here although I've been reading for quite a while. That's why I'm glad that others have interjected to clarify and cutoff the negative path this discussion was being sent.

If Sun sticks something in the JDS (like StarOffice), then chances are it is based on an OpenSource project. Look at Sun ONE Studio (Netbeans) as well. I've been using what is essentially MadHatter on my Ultrasparc for about 6 months now mostly done with OpenSource projects (I do use StarOffice though and not Open Office).

Also, as pointed out the Java Enterprise System has nothing to with the JDS (see rugwuk's reply). It is comprised of things like Solaris and Sun ONE App Server. The basic idea for that is to give customers a well tested and stable reference implementation.

I never said it was an Enterprise Application, I said it was targeted as Enterprise customers (see hackstraw's reply). This has been well stated by Scott McNealy and other Sun execs. You are not going to see Sun sales people running off to Best Buy trying to get them to stock Mad Hatter machines in the near future.

Anyway, I've been following the JDS project for a while and I know it fairly well so that's why I chose to comment (granted, I still may be mistaken in a few places). It is intended to attack Windows from a monetary perpective (via much smaller licensing fees) and not so much from a "blow you away" feature perpective...even though it is very strong in that regard (I like it much better than Windows myself).

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[elmegil]

Last time I checked, enterprises had desktops too.

Re:I wouldn't worry about making a dent

[sql*kitten]

This is clever, and it's nice to see that it works, but Java?

It's not Java - well most of it isn't. It's almost all written in C and C++. Sun has decided that Java is a brand, not the name of a programming language, and plans to use it for all their software products. The Sun people I've spoken to vary in their happiness about this (the same people who refer to Solaris 8 as "SunOS 5.8" as you can imagine think it's just marketing nonsense).

Re:Dent in the Windows monopoly?

[lederhosen]

It was previewed on an x86 computer...

Java?

[Dreadlord]

When I read the article for the first time I thought it was an OS that most of its apps are Java or something, but it turned out to be a Linux distro, with the most common Linux apps (GNOME, Mozilla, Evolution)
Anyway, it still looks like a good choice for desktops, I think I'll try to test it as soon as it's available.

Re:Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

User* Dreadlord = Slashdot.getUser(671979);
Dreadlord->printSig();

If you're posting stuff about Java, at least make sure your .sig is Java as well. I'll translate your C++ code for you:

User Dreadlord = Slashdot.getUser(671979);
System.out.println( Dreadlord.getSig() );

Re:Java?

[zootread]

No, why do it the hard way? Just write a function:

String userSig(String username)
{
User user = Slashdot.getUser(Slashdot.getUid(username));
&nbs p; return(user.getSig());
}

And then just call it:

System.out.println(this.userSig("zootread"));

I probably got a bug in there somewhere, but you get the point.

Re:Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

this code won't compile, because you can't write functions in Java, just objects andmethods :p

Re:Java?

[zootread]

Obviously it won't compile, I'm not going to write entire class for you.

Re:Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone needs to carry red magic markers wherever they go and start marking all MS products that say net with the no or not sign.
I've a patent on the word .NET and would appreciate all the help I can get in this matter.

Star Office

[matchlight]

The author states The Open Office Team and the Sun Microsystems developers must be working in Tandem to make their suites more accessible to the public. but from the Open Office website:
StarDivision, the original author of the StarOffice suite of software, was founded in Germany in the mid-1980s. It was acquired by Sun Microsystems during the summer of 1999 and StarOffice 5.2 was released in June of 2000. Future versions of StarOffice software, beginning with 6.0, have been built using the OpenOffice.org source, APIs, file formats, and reference implementation.

Re:Star Office

[Disevidence]

Thats not the only mistake in the article. He at one point talks about browsing and such, but yet mentions Thunderbird (a early version Email Program)

"I did test out some Flash-enabled web pages and found them to work flawlessly as well as any Java applications and web pages (as you would expect from Sun). The choice of Mozilla is good, but I would also like to see them try Thunderbird (it is just a tad lighter than Mozilla and does rock),"

I have the odd feeling this live demo might have been taken for a spin, but overall it smacks of just a quick overview, with no real guts to the test (understandable in some respects, its not an install environment). Still it would be nice to get a proper guts and stuff review of it.

Re:Star Office

[matchlight]

Actually that is a lite version of Mozilla.

Re:Star Office

[Disevidence]

There is no lite version of Mozilla, in the stricter sense of the word. There is Firebird, the standalone Browser, and Thunderbird, the standalone Email Program.

They are not lite versions, but rather programs which share a large code base with the Mozilla Browser and Mozilla Mail parts of the Mozilla suite.

Re:Star Office

[!the!bad!fish!]

Mozilla Thunderbird is a redesign of the Mozilla mail component. Our goal is to produce a cross platform stand alone mail application using the XUL user interface language.

Re:Star Office

[matchlight]

Ya got me there, it's Firebird not Thunderbird but I'd still call it a lite version of Mozilla being that it is based on the Mozilla codebase :)

Re:Star Office

[Disevidence]

Perhaps, but the browser is only one part of the complete Mozilla suite. Admittedly that its the most important, but still only one part.

Re:Star Office

[rifter]

Mozilla Thunderbird is a redesign of the Mozilla mail component. Our goal is to produce a cross platform stand alone mail application using the XUL user interface language.

There is no .NET only XUL.

OS X....

[psyconaut]

I've heard a few comments in the media claiming that this is a threat to Windows, and as "slick as OS X". Ahem! Excuse me?!

Anyone that's used OS X and understands its architecture is immediately going to know that Sun's pretty-faced SuSE implementation ain't OS X.

Sure, it's great to see a properly packaged Linux-centric OS, don't get me wrong, but let's all try and remember exactly what this is...it's not

-psy

Re:OS X....

[hype7]

on the subject, there's a great article over at InternetWeek.com by David Strom, entitled Java On The Desktop: An Idea Whose Time Has Come ... And Gone.

Basically: Sun should give up trying to win the desktop wars; if they want a good, non-MS desktop, they should back OS X and focus on the stuff that they've always done well. This is just a diversion for Sun, it's going to sap their resources and when it doesn't work it's just going to be another feather in the cap for the "Sun is dying" camp.

-- james

Re:OS X....

[javatips]

That's because you did NOT see the Java 3D desktop demo (RealOne Stream)(it start at arround 1:01:00 in the video stream).

It's amazing!

Only bad thing is that they may not include it in the first release of Mad Hatter.

Re:OS X....

[Matthias Wiesmann]

The sad thing, is that Sun's obstination with Java desktop applications means that they will probably never release an interesting NextStep applications they bought some time ago.

As showed by Omni, Next-step applications can be ported to OS X quite fast and are generaly high quality. It is kind of sad to see good code go to waste simply for political reasons.

Re:OS X....

[bobaferret]

Sap their resources...maybe as far as marketing is concerned, but putting some finishing touches on SUSE, renaming it and sending it though their already established distro channels will hardly put a dent in thbeir resources. How many people do you think they have managing this..? I'd be shocked if it were more than 4 people. I'd even bet that if they wanted to they could squeze it down to one plus marketing, and they seem to be letting the press do that for them.

Re:OS X....

[javatips]

Here is a direct link to the stream

Re:OS X....

[psyconaut]

Sorry, 3D wonders does not a great desktop make.

-psy

Re:OS X....

[DAldredge]

One little problem with backing OS X is THAT IS DOESN"T RUN ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN PRICY APPLE HARDWARE!

While the hardware may be worth it, that will not matter to the majority of business users, and you know it.

Re:OS X....

[JohnnyBolla]

I guess it wouldn't be slashdot without some Macintosh bible beater reminding us how much smarter they are than the rest of us.
Try to stay on topic there, fanboy.

Re:OS X....

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's Java, then it should be easily ported to MacOS X.

Re:OS X....

[IANAAC]

Maybe Sun is the wrong company to be pushing Linux on the desktop, but consider this:
How many of us really thought that Linux on the desktop would ever be as attractive as it is today (be honest - I know that there are those that will say 'I always knew Linux on the desktop would happen' - but deep down I'm willing to bet that's not what most of us thought). Redhat pushed the desktop further along with Bluecurve, whether you like it or not, as well as Mandrake.
If it's Sun that pushes Linux on the desktop further into business or another company doesn't really matter. The fact that it's happening is really what matters.

Re:OS X....

[Znork]

I have only one piece of advice for David Strom. He should read about the product before commenting.

It's painfully obvious that the Java Desktop System is just Linux with Gnome, and has very little to do with Java. Which sortof makes Mr Stroms article more or less completely beside the point and makes it clear that he doesnt know what he's talking about.

It's an understandable error to make, as apparently Suns Product Naming Division had some difficulty too. Still, one would think a journalist would read more than the name of the product before writing a column.

Well, I'm looking forward to his next rant... about why Microsoft should stick to writing software instead of branching into glass construction work with that 'Windows' product.

Re:OS X....

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever. Mac OS X is the gold standard of operating systems. Linux is for losers who have no money and can't get a date. Windows is for pointy haired bosses who beleive it'll make them rich. Mac OS X is not for people like you who's only task with a computer is to jerk off at old woman porn, it is for people like me who have actual taste, who drive better cars than you (like my Audi TT), who listen to better music than you (such as the White Stripes), and who appreciate art and life more than you. Mac OS X is a lifestyle, not an operating system.

Re:OS X....

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget, Star Office will be the app that makes this a Desktop competitor. Without Star Office there is no current GNU/Linux competition to the MS Office/Win32 user base.

Star Office 7 (OO.org 1.1), while it needs more work, is ready for most business users.

Re:OS X....

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosh! Ur sooooo GAY.

Re:OS X....

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if I were "GAY", at least I'm not a 300 pound, 30-something year old, Linux zealot who lives in his parent's basement and spanks to pictures of Britney Spears every night.

I've "Installed a Java Desktop"

[BabyDave]

Anyone got any paper towels?

Premonition

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

/me sees a McBride Press Realese in the near future...

Re:Premonition

[Valar]

Nah, Sun already payed their Linux tax (second largest 'contributer', next to Microsoft). They're maybe not buddy-buddy with SCO, but SCO won't mess with them.

Re:Premonition

[illumin8]

Nah, Sun already payed their Linux tax (second largest 'contributer', next to Microsoft). They're maybe not buddy-buddy with SCO, but SCO won't mess with them.

Get your facts straight. Sun bought a perpetual Unix license which gives them the right to do whatever they want with the Unix System V code. They are legally the only company that can sell a Linux distro right now, according to SCO.

WTF is this SUN Java name?

[pirhana]

I find the name "SUN Java Desktop" really ridiculous. Its as stupid as calling Toyota Land Cruiser "SONY SUV" for the Sony sterio system used in it.

Re:Nice touch.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this pair are nominees for the Homer Simpson Darwin award:

I laughed so hard my face hurt.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N072400 52 .htm

- Moomin

Meh?

[quinkin]

Your point being? x86 != Windows

Q.

From Sun:

[jeffkjo1]

The Java Desktop System will be available in December 2003.

I can't wait this long!!! By that time RedHat could be on release 12!!

Re:From Sun:

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait this long!!! By that time RedHat could be on release 12!!

Not to mention breaking major libraries in incompatible ways for the 4th version straight. I can't be the only one with apps that mysteriously no longer work right after switching to Red Hat 9. They work fine on Debian "unstable" and Mandrake, they don't work on Red Hat.

Re:Meh? My bad

[quinkin]

Ok I just re-read the second sentence of the original article... I get it now, you were right. Tired brain is my excuse :)

Q.

Re:WTF is this SUN Java name?

[!the!bad!fish!]

A Sony SUV!
Is availiable with right hand drive?

I don't see this making much of a dent...

[andih8u]

If the pricing per seat per year is still $100, I don't see a whole trove of enterprises converting their entire camp over to this product. Especially with all the recent poor press Sun has gotten about being half-dead etcetera, I don't see many IT ppl being able to convince their boss to go with a company that he probably read about in the morning's paper as being about to collapse.

Re:I don't see this making much of a dent...

[zootread]

If its worth the money, I'll buy. The problem with buying operating systems is not the price (at least not for me).

Re:I don't see this making much of a dent...

[sufehmi]

It's still WAY better than Microsoft's offer: US$ 199 for OS and US$ 499 for Office suite.

I know, it's list price, and corporations will get discounts. But let's compare apple with apple, ok.

So corporations will get deep discounts from Sun, there's no doubt about it. When you're buying in bulk, you'll enjoy deep discount - as simple as that.

Re:I don't see this making much of a dent...

[oldmanmtn]

If the pricing per seat per year is still $100, I don't see a whole trove of enterprises converting their entire camp over to this product.

That's probably because you don't know what you're talking about. The Red Hat equivalent (actually slightly less than equal) is RH Enterprise Linux WS, which will run you $179-$299. An "enterprise" is going to buy their software and a support contract. It isn't going to be running on whatever random collection of Sourceforge goodies the BOFH decides to pull over today.

Re:I don't see this making much of a dent...

[mark_lybarger]

sure, compare apples to apples. StarOffice -> Microsoft Office is not a valid comparision. StarOffice is a nice office suite, but it's not in the same league of Microsoft Office. Microsoft desktop is for the corporate use, Linux desktop is for the budget user who doesn't want to go the warez route (self included).

Sun Java whoosy?

[Kujah]

Wasn't it Sun who recently suffered a major blow to their java language, when it was discovered that the java interpreter that ran on their own operating system (Solaris) was slower than the interpreter created for windows?

Re:Sun Java whoosy?

[LarsWestergren]

Wasn't it Sun who recently suffered a major blow to their java language, when it was discovered that the java interpreter that ran on their own operating system (Solaris) was slower than the interpreter created for windows?

Why would this be a "major blow" to Java the language? If this is true, and not just FUD (as I suspect), all it would show that there is room for optimization of the virtual machine on Solaris, that is all. Big whoop.

Re:Sun Java whoosy?

[herrvinny]

It's not FUD. I remember the PC World tests that measured the interpreter speed. But I also remember that MS was the one that wrote the JVM for windows, so perhaps MS used some exploits...

Re:Sun Java whoosy?

[TummyX]

WTF?

Interpretor? MS JVM? How the hell did I end up in 1997?

Re:Sun Java whoosy?

[The Ogre]

It's not FUD, but it's not entirely accurate either.

In a nutshell, the MS JVM by default has a smaller Heap (ie. it takes less memory to use for itself). This makes garbage collection faster, as there's less memory to scan. When you look at something like an animation applet, they tend to run "choppier" on default sun JVM installs, because the sun JVM is scanning 128megs (on my system) of memory, while the MS JVM is scanning like 8 megs. When you run a *big* app on MS JVM, or tune the Sun JVM, that particular issue disappears. There are likely other factors as well, but that's the one that's made a difference for me.

The newer Sun JVMs do Garbage Collection differently now, so this isn't nearly as much of an issue as it used to be.

A thread about this is at the Sun Developer Network - http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=54&thre ad=439174

So, in summary - the MS JVM is tuned for toy applets, while Sun's is tuned for larger applications. You can presumably tweak both to get the performance you are looking for.

-- Tom Bortels

Re:Sun Java whoosy?

[Zandall]

No, it's not the interpreter. It's the garbage collector and mainly the JIT. The JIT of JVM in 1.4 is hotspot (almost the same used in Windows), but it doesn't work well on Solaris as the older one.

pricing better when considering all apps

[192939495969798999]

The pricing may seem high at first for this product, but remember that the uptime will be better, and the apps that are available are more or less free or packaged with the product -- especially with the enterprise version. I think that for really large customers, the savings could be significant enough to warrant both the switch and the re-training of employees. What's more, once a few large customers switch to this system, there will be a greater demand for JAVA programmers... and that's what Sun really needs!

nice

[rwven]

I've got to hand it to them. that is a pretty sharp looking setup.

Re:nice

[rwven]

lol, overrated? such bull, i think it looks way better than KDE or gnome.... way to moderate and be a moron

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Yippee

I've got the madhatter beta installed - both on my laptop and PC @ home. I was running redhat @ home (for use as a workstation) and windows on the laptop.

First impressions - well, it just works !! Once I'd installed and then set up my automounts (to get access to my home directories) I had nothing to do but investigate the games...

It looks good (someone must have helped sun with the layout/gui) and it's a bonus having all the apps actually working together!! Very similar look to windows (good in my opinion).

Still using an old business model?

[jubalj]

While it is good to see Sun embracing linux, isnt it still trying to run things using, what seems like a closed source model?

I mean whats with the crippled liveCD? is even the Live CD going to be available for free public download?

This makes me wonder about how much of the CD is actually GPL? All of the additional bits that sun has added probably arent opensource. How long before we see unofficial ISOs of the GPL'd portion?

Re:Still using an old business model?

[oldmanmtn]

Crippled in what way? You can download the whole 5-disk beta and do a full install if you want. If you just want to try it out, the 1-disk LiveCD lets you do that without having to go to the effort of installing. Sounds like everyone wins, so what are you bitching about?

Re:Still using an old business model?

[jubalj]

Well, The beta cant be downloaded cause it says that the beta program is full (FAQ).

The LiveCD - do you have the link to where you can download it from? I cant find anywhere on the sunsite.

re Crippled: To quote the guy who wrote the article The functionality of the system is somewhat limited because it is a demo... The only problem I have with the Live CD is that I cannot install the Star Office 7 product to demo it (it takes more space than is allocated for the install in demo mode)

If they wanted some serious market penetration, they should have released it under a similar license to the 'Free Solaris Binary License' which allowed free downloads of the x86 Solaris 8 isos. That would instantly make them a serious desktop OS contender.

The same as .NET Server when it really is Win2003?

[microbob]

Isn't this the same as MS calling Windows2003 Windows .NET Server?

SUN sticks Java on everything and MS sticks .NET on everything.

Seems like SUN would have learned from MS on this one....

Color everyone confused!

M.B.

RE: Java naming

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe Sun is using the Java naming because so many components are Java already, or will hopefully become Java-based in the future. For example, OpenOffice has a lot of components written in Java with tremendously tight Java integration. The SDK lets you do some really cool things. I used OpenOffice in server mode to automatically convert word, ppt, and excel docs submitted to a MySQL database into PDF. That way, they can be accessed from anywhere, and they are full-text searchable in the MySQL database, in addition to offering a really nice "preview" function. Also, Mozilla has many many parts of it written in Java.

Re:Georgy Russell and political reality

[zootread]

ummm... duh? This didn't need to be stated. All she's good for is wacking off to the pics on her website. And that's fine by me. Anyone got (links to) any more pics of her? There were a few really hot ones that were on the her web page before, but are there no longer. Thanks.

Re:WTF is this SUN Java name?

[Disevidence]

Its a Sun configured OS for the Desktop, with lots of little Java utilities thrown in and the Java Developer Kit and J2SE.

It makes perfect sense. They put it in black and white that the OS is linux. Whats the big problem?

Java is a decease

[axxackall]

Sun is placing Java in the front of the distro just as the last agony of the dying company.

The distro has nothing to do with Java aside it can run JVM. Well, it can run (even often more successfully) other interpreters and compilers too: Python, Perl, Ruby, Lisp, Erlang, Haskell, Schema, ML, Prolog, C, C++, PHP, Ada, and many more.

But Sun doesn't care about other languages. Sun keeps being blind and see ONLY Java everywhere it goes, in everything it touches. Sun thinks that if it will repeat only Java as a magic word then at some point all world around will ignore everything if it is not Java.

So sad to see so good in the past company ending up in such a mental illness decease.

Re:Java is a decease

[elmegil]

Wow. Can you read the minds of individuals as well as corporations?

Re:Java is a decease

[dzelenka]

You keep saying that word "decease". I do not think it means what you think it means. The word you want is "disease".

Don't marketers understand brand management?

[dpbsmith]

When you have a brand name that actually means something to the public, and you try to perform a "line extension" by applying that brand name to more or less unrelated products that do not share the characteristics with which the brand is associated, you don't enhance the value of the brand, you diminish it.

Diet Coke, Cherry Coke, Vanilla Coke, by all means, but there's a good reason why Coca-Cola Corporation calls their orange juice "Minute Maid" and not "Orange Coke."

Sun's calling everything "Java" is almost as bad as Microsoft trying to appropriate the top-level-domain .net and apply it to some inchaote mass of technology.

Calling everything Sun does "Java" may please the ego of whatever manager is empowered to stick the name "Java" on stuff, but it won't do Sun, or Sun's customers, or the Java "brand" any good.

Re:Don't marketers understand brand management?

[davecb]

They're offering two big packages with the Java name,the enterprise and desktop bundles. As the enterprise stuff has been worked on more, it has way more actual java code in it than the desktop.

I suspect we'll see more and more Java code in both.

I also suspect that software other than the two places they're puting their efforts won't get tagged Java, for exactly the reason that dpbsmith pointed out.

--dave (who is biased, you understand) c-b

It's been done, a year ago

[KRzBZ]

Xandros Linux did this, including the simplification of the desktop, app choices, and inclusion of CrossOver office and Plugins for win compatability.

I posted about this before here : obviously, someone at Sun got a free copy of Xandros when Xandros gave out 1024 copies at LinuxWorld Expo here, and decided "Hey - this is the way to do it!", and now they call it JavaDesktop...

I beg to differ...

[Pac]

a) Major non-trivial application: Check. (Educational software for text exploration composed of two pieces, an almost full-fledged editor and an "investigator", interface fully graphical, localized for five different languages)

b) Write once, run anywhere: Check (Covers the three major platforms - Windows, Linux and OSX. Ok, write once, compile and run anywhere - the sole major problem was with text format in OSX)

The inconsistencies you point are development process, not tool, problems. Testing does not go away because you use Java. Our software does have minor inconsistencies across platforms, and some (20 or so) lines of code that will execute only in a given operating systems - I would call this cross-platform. The performance is also a non-problem after some targeted tunning.

So, from personal experience, I can say Java is now a viable desktop developement platform.

Re:The same as .NET Server when it really is Win20

[clontzman]

Except that's not the name of the product...

Windows Server 2003 -- they dropped the .NET from the name many months ago.

NEW Desktop?!?

[redragon]

Is there any reason people keep mimicing the same old desktop? The same old office applications? Is anyone out there trying to break the mold (I give Apple credit for doing this to a greater degree than others)? I mean, I still see Win98 and above emulation here (not emulation like that...emulation as in, "the child emulates his parents actions"), why not work on something a bit more revolutionary?

Of course here I am nit-picking, and don't really have anything helpful to add...

Carry On.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[Nonillion]

That may be all well and good. But given the market they are shooting for you cannot expect people who have used Windows to embrace a radically different desktop. I for one actually LIKE the CDE desktop, sure it's old but I think if it were polished up more it could actually compete with OSX.

When I went to Frys last week I looked at the new G5 with the cinema display. The first thing to come to mind was "gee.. kind of reminds me of CDE."

Go SUN !

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree.

apps, maybe, but any user will know how to start their applications if given a nice intuitive way to do it, that is always available, and easily customiseable. The start-menu is none of these things, and renaming it 'launch' doesn't begin to address its many problems.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally a Linux OS without 3 different IRC apps, 5 different email apps, 7 games nobody plays, 8 browsers only one of which is supported by my bank and a host of other shit that's not needed.
Install Mandrake and first order of business is uninstall all the shit you don't want or need.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[evilviper]

Is there any reason people keep mimicing the same old desktop? [...] Is anyone out there trying to break the mold

Come on now, there are lots of alternative desktops out there, it's just that none of them reach the mainstream.

Besides Mac OS and Windows environments, there are OpenStep-based environments (AfterStep, GnuSTEP). There are (loosly) twm-based environments like everything from fvwm to blackbox-based WMs. There are even less conventional WMs like found in Plan9, or perhaps even RatPoison. There are even 3D window managers. And let's not forget the panel-based environments (but not like Windows) such as CDE and XFce.

As for the supposed lack of innovation, spend a good long time thinking about it, and ask yourself how many ways you can really deal with the problem. You need to organize windows, and place a list of applications you can choose from. What more can YOU think of that hasn't already been done?

I think more of the problem is just that you haven't seen the lesser-known environments that are out there.

Gnome is perhaps the most interesting desktop, cosidering that, unlike everything else in Unix, it tries to do all and everything. It is like Windows in that it has desk-top icons, and a start-menu. It also has a panel where running programs are listed. On the panel, you can have launchable programs, a lot like CDE. You can add a panel just about anywhere on the desktop you want, giving it the ability to function more like OpenStep or others. Additionally, more recently, it added the menu across the top, so you can give it a Mac OS feeling to it if you so desire. Personally, I'm not a fan of Gnome at all (I find it one large step-up from KDE though) but it's interesting that it tries to be all things to all people.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[redragon]

> What more can YOU think of that hasn't already been done?

Hence my statement, "Of course here I am nit-picking, and don't really have anything helpful to add..."

But...

How about a better analogy to how people work than a "desktop" with some files and folders? Honestly, stuff gets lost this way more than it gets organized. How about something more useful, like being able to organize things, and create cross referencing capabilities...For example...

While I read I like to take a lot of notes, so I do this now using folder structures:

Author
|-Book Title

With a file for each chapter. When I go to do a review of the book, I start a new file...I have to rummage through the author's directories and files (and sometimes other notes I've taken on his references) to make sure I'm using the right quotes and looking at the right places.

Wouldn't it be nice if there some means that during the process of creating the original files I could have set up associations (or something... again, I'm not an expert) between quotes and references and other things.

I know you're probably thinking, "thats a program, not a desktop." But why not change our metaphor? I just think there are OTHER ideas out there, and I never claimed to HAVE those ideas.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[evilviper]

How about a better analogy to how people work than a "desktop" with some files and folders?

Then your complaint is with filesystems, and not desktops at all.

And BTW, there are filesystems being worked on that have database capabilities. You could even search /. to find a few.

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[redragon]

Not really...

I'm talking about:
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_1 /nichols /index.html

Go to the section:
Usability and Open Source Software Development
|- Commercial Software Establishes State of the Art so that OSS can Only Play Catch-Up

First paragraph...Last Sentence:
"As a result it had to follow the interface design ideas of Excel regardless of whether or not they could have been improved upon."

I want the ability to work with my stuff like files and folders, but in other ways all at once. I'm not talking just file-systems, and yes I know about journaling file systems and the like, storing lots of meta data (BeOS comes first to mind).

The point is WHY JUST MIMIC?

Re:NEW Desktop?!?

[evilviper]

http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_1/nicho ls /index.html

That article is a whopping load of crap. They are absolutely incorrect about every single point made. My guess, is that they were paid by Microsoft.

I'm not talking just file-systems

Yu definately aren't talking about Window managers, or "Desktops" as you put it.

The point is WHY JUST MIMIC?

The question is, what gives you the impression that only mimicing is going on? There are loads and loads of software projects doing incredibly innovative things. What has you convinced that no innovating is going on?

confusion

[novakane007]

It's called 'JAVA' desktop, it's built 'SUSE', and it's name is MAD 'HATTER'. Could they make this anymore confusing?!

$100/seat is more than just the desktop

[csoto]

Sun is talking about charging roughly $100/seat for ALL of their N1 software. Basically, the "guts" of their "enterprise environment" is Sun ONE Directory, the messaging components, and various other "middleware." Sun Java Desktop is simply the desktop component of this "suite." It's a smart idea. Yeah, an organization could build their own "enterprise suite" out of GPL'ed or otherwise open software. Sun is just offering to do it for you.

A Question

[GrimReality]

Didn't Sun say that they would sell you Linux, if you want but, but you must get Solaris if you want a real, stable and secure OS (or something along those lines, It was on Slashdot)?

How does this fit into this MadHatter?

Were they talking about the Server only? Is it okay for the Desktop then?

On a related note, wouldn't selling Solaris generate more revenue than selling */Linux? So, is this a move to contrast their 'superior' Solaris product with the 'hype-only' */Linux, an attempt to show why people should choose Solaris instead of */Linux?

Thanks
GrimReality
2003-10-08 09:54 EDT

Wait!

[SirTwitchALot]

It's Wednesday, isn't sun Bad on Wed? Or maybe that was Amazon.... or Verisign? I'm so confused.

Re:Wait!

[Lugae]

No, no. You are confused. Sun is bad on Fridays!

Re:Wait!

[LPetrazickis]

You are confused. Verisign is always bad. ICANN is the one that's only bad on wednesdays.;)

Hopefully we'll see this on Solaris

[Moderation abuser]

As well as having a full Linux distribution for Intel based kit. Buhbye CDE.

Architected correctly, the TCO for this Solaris or Linux will be low. Architected incorrectly you might as well not bother.

Re:Hopefully we'll see this on Solaris

[Anonymous Coward]

You verbed architecture? respect!

Re:Hopefully we'll see this on Solaris

[bandy]

Gnome is an alternative to CDE already provided in Solaris 9. And Sun has already committed herself to providing "Mad Hatter" [productivity apps that interoperate with M$FT apps] on Solaris. Sparc at least. Still no official word on Solaris x86.

Re: Java naming

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

is your code available? At some point in the past I wanted to do almost the same (convert ppt to html) but didn't have the time nor the knowledge to do so.

TIA,

Scott, Scott, Scott...

[NDPTAL85]

....when are ya gonna learn that if anyone is going to dethrone Microsofts OVERWHELMING desktop suite dominance it sure as hell isn't going to be any half-assed product from Sun?

Re:Scott, Scott, Scott...

[Anonymous Coward]

That almost goes without saying. This really boggles the mind. Sun thinks they can compete in the desktop market now after so many half-assed attempts while the Windows desktop was maturing? Sun is running out of strengths, but it had better stick with whatever it's still got instead of half-baked "products" that no one wants.

Why GNOME?

[nurb432]

Not to start a flame war, as both desktops have merits, but I still think that in a business KDE Is more interface consistent and 'business looking'. Plus its got a useable integrated office suite.. not a 3rd party add-on..

Re:Why GNOME?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, you do realize that the "3rd party add-on" is _Sun_ Staroffice, right? They are adding on their own software, so I don't think you can really call it a 3rd party add-on.

Sun has been investing a great deal of work into GNOME (particularly for accessibility). You can see just how many sun.com email addresses show up on the GNOME foundation list here:

http://foundation.gnome.org/membership-list.html

I don't know why they choose GNOME over KDE, but the decision obviously happened long ago. It very well may have to do with the toolkit. I don't know much about the Qt license, so this may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that you have to pay to use it if you are developing a proprietary application. That would be a stupid choice for Sun -- then people would have to pay for the toolkit to develop integrated, proprietary applications that ran on their "Java" Desktop.

Re:Why GNOME?

[bandy]

GNOME is their CDE alternative on Solaris. I imagine that staying with it is a way of guaranteeing consistency.

Re:Why GNOME?

[_xeno_]

My guess is licensing.

The GNOME core libraries are all licensed under the LGPL - I can write a GNOME application that is closed source without paying a cent to anyone. Qt, obviously one of the most important parts of KDE, is dual licensed under either the GPL or QPL. This means that if I were to write a closed source application for KDE, I would have to pay a large sum of money to Trolltech. (I don't know about the licensing status of the rest of KDE - is it GPL or LGPL? It doesn't really matter, though, since Qt is the largest hurdle anyway.)

So my best guess is that Sun thinks the GNOME environment is a better environment for them to work with because they do not have the same licensing restrictions they would with KDE. Obviously, I don't actually know the reasons behind the decission, but that is my best guess.

Re:Dent in the Windows monopoly?

[DaEMoN128]

Uhhh, Sun ships a version of solaris for the x86 procs.

Making a dent?!!

[dogfud]

See sun package linux.
See sun sell package + support.
See thousands of IT managers now say "oh yeah, _NOW_ I'll make the switch!"

Riiiight.

Linux still has the same issues...one of the biggest is...it's not windows! (oh, and the mouse movement is still not quite right..) All those MS Office licences that were negotiated, all those Seiko label printers the secretaries love and probably won't work (and if they do it'll be a pain), all the pirated copies of X-Treme Beach Volleyball that won't run, all the techs who will have to be retra[[[[tired and new ones with linux experience found...

Let's face it. The linux faithful on slashdot are all nodding their heads saying "it could work..!" The suits who run the numbers, the IT managers who make the decisions...heck, even the techs on the floor are shaking their heads.

Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen. No. Not for technical reasons (I think we'd all agree that it's very technically feasible) but for people reasons.

Re:Making a dent?!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to be the one to shatter your world view, but your attitude that "Linux on the desktop could never happen" is so 2002. It's almost 2004 now, and Linux on the desktop is at the same stage as "Linux on the server" was back in about '97. But hey you can shrug this AC post off as just more rambling from the "slashdot faithful", which is great because it means you wont be competing with me for work implementing corporate Linux desktops. I don't mind a bit. :)

Re:Making a dent?!!

[GauteL]

1. Pirated versions of some silly software like games is not something the enterprise managers care about. They are the target for this.

2. Most enterprise customers use only a very limited amount of software very extensively. If that exact piece of software is available for Linux, then it is an alternative. Many such packages ARE available for Linux.

3. SUN has a decent brand name, and some very cool technology that can be combined with this, for instance SunRay thin-clients.

4. If the enterprise starts to use Linux, then more software will get ported and eventually it might have a chance with Joe Luser. But right now, the full focus is at the enterprise, and rightly so.

Re: Java naming

[molarmass192]

Mozilla doesn't have any parts of it written in Java, I think you're thinking of XUL. Apart from that, I like the idea of OpenOffice integrating Java even more tightly. Once thing I'd like to see OO support is Java based macros rather than that basic-like crap that's in there right now.

Out of the frying pan into the fire...

[Anita Coney]

Giving up servitude to Microsoft for servitude to Sun makes no sense at all.

linux better than windows for productivity?

[hypermegachi]

i really don't like it when people keep saying that. unless you're working with the command line i find it hard for anywone to think that linux really is 'soooo much' better than windows. i set up hotkeys for all of my programs using litestep. and litestep in itself is already so customizable there is no end to what you can do with it. and even if you don't use litestep, windows has built hotkeys that you can use. so what do i do when i want to start winamp? i just press ctrl+alt+w. word? win+w. email? win+m. none of this, start, programs, microsoft office, word. no, takes me 1/2 second to press my hotkey and it loads. is my volume too loud? to quiet? or do i just wanna shut it up. hotkeys for those too. all my common tasks i can do in a blink of an eye. even though i haven't tried much in linux (KDE3) i couldn't quickly find any options to change hotkeys to run programs. but i'd imagine most linux 'power users' to open up the run dialog with a hotkey and type in the command. and to add on to my productivity, i use mouse gestures for EVERYTHING, not just browsing, but everything. last time i checked with linux, they discontinued support for KDE2, and not making it for KDE3. i was pretty disappointed at this because i've grown very used to using gestures. when i close a window, i don't move to the top corner to press the X, i just hold down right-click and make a C. it's even faster than positioning my left hand to press alt+f4. new tabs and close tabs in mozilla? make a N, or make an L. for those interested...www.tcbmi.com/strokeit/ completely free. and very useful. i just want to tell all those windows productivity bashers that even though you make like to take every opportunity to say how much linux is better than windows this and that, if you actually took the effort to make windows extremely productive you can. and if you use the CLI argument...then you're not really using your computer now are you? you're just administering it right?

Re:linux better than windows for productivity?

[Lord Agni]

Which gesture makes it crash? This would save a lot of time going through the half-dozen or so keystrokes it usually takes.

Re:linux better than windows for productivity?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had mod points....;-)

desktop not the most important

[doodzed]

I wish instead of focusing on video or a glossy desktop Sun would come out with a distro that supported all their authentication modes. That means a stable distro that is tested with both SunOne directory(ldap) and NIS+. Documentation for both should be just as good as it is on the solaris side.

Sun "Java" desktop

[ShpellCzech]

I've been awaiting my cd since SUN first posted the whole "Mad Hatter" blurb. By "live CD" am I to understand this is the same deal as Knoppix?
I installed Knoppix as a lightweight debian system
by running "knx-hdinstall" at the console. Any such
install possibilities with this puppy?

Can we get away from the "Start Button"??

[boy_afraid]

I'm starting to get sick with every 'altervative' desktop still having a taskbar and a 'start' button. What ever happened to some fresh new ideas of what a GUI for an OS/Window Manager is supposed to look like. Maybe use those special buttons on some keyboards as special actions instead of having to click Start >> Hover over Programs >> Hover over Accessories or Click on MS Word.

My ideal interface would be a very small LCD touch screen with the ability to interface with the OS while the main screen will be the main working screen.

We need some imagination!!

Re:Can we get away from the "Start Button"??

[WWWWolf]

Yeah. I've always found that the Window Maker way - getting the program menu by right-clicking desktop wherever you like - is the best. In fact, I installed LiteStep on Win98 just for that. (I don't care if alternative shells in Windows are only 99.9% convenient - I want my start menu placed where God intended...)

Another thing which I found pretty neat was the Indigo Magic Desktop's "Icon Catalog" application - small groups of icons arranged in a small window, with a tab row on the bottom for categories. Hopefully 5dwm will get along to reimplement it eventually =)

They understand it. But they do it wrong.

[axxackall]

It's just a beginning. Now they have a Java desktops, because they used a tiny Java class in the process of installation of GNOME. Next itme they will use a tiny java class just to configure /etc/hosts and we'll all see "Java Linux".

Wrong. Base GNOME looks just fine.

[Ars-Fartsica]

This is pure FUD. The stock GNOME that you download from gnome.org is quite useable on its own. If you want a bit of polish, RedHat's bluecurve is nice but certainly it won't change any functional aspect of the base GNOME.

I think Sun will find little success with this product specifically because it offers so little over the base freeware.

Linux by any other name...

[kitzilla]

...might cause a lot of confusion.

I can't imagine why Sun is commiting the classic error of brand extension by calling this a "Java" desktop. It dilutes the value of the best thing Sun has going for them and doesn't clearly describe their new product. How numbingly short-sighted. Surely Sun can afford some proper marketing direction.

Unless there's some legal reason to the contrary, this product should have been released as "SunLinux." No need to use buzzphrases like "desktop" in the packaging, either. It's a meaningless term to Windows users, who view the desktop and underlying OS as the same thing. Just present the value-added software (the desktop, StarOffice, etc.) as a very cool SunLinux bonus and move on.

Another case of corporate ego over common sense. Pity: sounds like a decent product.

So why do so many run apache,mysql, perl??

[Ars-Fartsica]

Big Businesses want other Big Businesses to back their software.

This myth is repeated so many times that people start to believe it. There is a huge support network in large firms for totally free software, some of which is downright obscure. This notion that corporate departments only use corporate software is bunk, I don't know why people continue to trot it out.

The company I work at has a $22 billion market cap and survives on freebsd, perl and php. CONVINCED YET???

Re:I'm afraid

[Anonymous Coward]

But, this it the tinfoil mad hatter preview then.

or wait...

MadHatter problem...

[bryam]

What happen with Mad Hatter strategy now that Novell acquired Ximian (GNOME + Evolution)?
Why Sun call it "Java Desktop System"? The rigth name is: GTK+ Desktop System ;-)

notes

[Anonymous Coward]

If it doesn't support Lotus notes then I ain't using it.

No IMAP/POP ... lotus notes.

I don't think so

[penguin7of9]

Sun Java Desktop System is a good product overall, built on the well-established SuSE system with integration from Sun. It delivers what appears to be a very useful desktop OS and it has the chance to make a dent in the Windows monopoly.

Whoever thinks that Sun has it in them to make a high-quality desktop must never have used a Sun GUI. Try OpenWindows to get an idea of what Sun thinks is a good GUI. To the degree that MadHatter is a great desktop, it's a great desktop because of Gnome, not because of what Sun added to it (which is very little).

In fact, MadHatter is a big admission of defeat for Sun: Sun should have delivered a Java desktop environment. That is, they should have delivered an environment in which applications and tools are written in Java. Instead, they are shipping an open source desktop environment written mostly in C/C++, ship a JVM along with it, and call it a "Java desktop". Apparently, it's beyond the capabilities of a multi-billion dollar company to develop a usable desktop in what they claim to be the premier programming platform for the 21st century.

SuSE, RedHat, and Gnome can make a dent in Microsoft's monopoly--they have the software, ease of installation, and driver support for PCs. Sun has nothing to contribute that I can see.

Biggest part isn't in GUI.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look at the sources for the Eclipse SDK (it's Open Source, go look!), only the layer connecting to the windowing system (GTK+2, Motif, Carbon, Win32) is native. The rest of it is Java byte-codes.

Support

[Detaer]

It is my understanding that sun releases many of their products unsupported. If they really want to make a dent in a business market they could actually start selling support contracts for software. It would be good for their income and good for a customer to be guaranteed support when they need it. Other shops have been doing this for years; I am surprised Sun hasn't caught on.

3rd Party relative to Gnome

[nurb432]

This is what i meant, i realize SO is owned by Sun now..

It was in reference to that its 3rd party relative to the Gnome desktop...Where Koffice is integrated.

I belive the QT license issues are moot now, but I agree they may not have been when this was decided...

The lack of differences between desktops

[jesterzog]

I don't want to specifically attack Sun with this comment, but...

Watching competition between different desktops is about as exciting as watching competition between the Democans and the Republicrats.

Most desktops copy each other and have no serious differences. They're all competing for the middle ground, either because their developers don't want to innovate any more (due to time constraints or other reasons) or because they're hoping that people might switch as the new isn't really revolutionary from the old.

To name a few, KDE, Windows (any version), Gnome, MacOS, WindowMaker, and so on, all have the same basic features.

• They're all built around moveable and often re-sizable windows for each application that occupy space on the desktop.
• They all use menus.
• They all have dialogue boxes, often modal and annoying (although that's changing).
• They all have a desktop background.
• They mostly use icons in similar ways to represent and sometimes launch applications. (At least the more recent ones do -- now that there's something to copy.)
• They all support a mouse that can typically be used to drag things around and activate them. Dragging application windows is metaphorically analygous to manipulating bits of paper on the tops of piles by gripping the edges with a single finger.

In other words, they're all designed to be the same and to only have niche differences. Consequently, they're all falling into the same general traps that come with these similar ways of doing things.

To name an example, I'd love to see a less modal window manager that tried to do away with overlapping windows. Currently one of my biggest gripes with using nearly any computer desktop is the ability to lose windows behind other windows and lose track of what state things are in.

If a window manager allows switching windows and seeing what's running by looking at and clicking on the visible windows, then people will do that. (And I frequently do.) The problem is that the whole action of doing so then becomes very ambiguous, because the ability to switch applications is somewhat randomly dependent on how much of the window is visible.

How long until we actually see some real innovation with desktops where they aren't just copying each other and making the same mistakes?

Mad Hatter copyrighted

[wraithgar]

I seem to remember that Disney (ABC, whoever) owned a copyright on the words "Mad Hatter".
When I was in high school, I was a member of a choral group who called themselves the "Mad Hatters" and we got into a brief spat w/ Disney's lawyers over that.

Does anyone else know more about this?

Re:Mad Hatter copyrighted

[Wesley Felter]

Trademarks usually don't matter for code names.

Java?

[vandan]

I prefer my desktop to be written in C.
I know that Java is good for basically everything according to Sun, but a desktop???

Yeah I know. It's just a name.

A stoooopid name. Microsoft can get away with calling everything '.NET' because their market is the mindless masses. Most people have no idea what .NET is, and the more Microsoft put .NET in different sentences, the more people will warm to the idea and buy something with .NET in it.

But Sun is supposedly marketing to those who know better. So they have a serious problem, because this audience sees right through them.

Java Desktop my arse.

Like I said, I prefer my C Desktop. Idiots.

Nice pictures, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

How tightly is Java integrated into the OS? Sounds like it's basically just another Linux distro with the latest jdk and maybe some Java-based window managers and X programs. Whatever happened to the idea of a Java-based OS?

Re:WTF is this SUN Java name?

[chthonicdaemon]

Almost as stupid as calling something Mandrake Linux just because about 1MiB out of about 800MiB installed is the Linux kernel?

Re: Java naming

[Anonymous Coward]

I pretty much used the example DocumentConvert.java in the OpenOffice SDK. You can get it here:

OpenOffice SDK