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Intuit Apologizes to Turbo Tax Customers
tstoneman writes "Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers over their product activation code. Let's hope that they have learned their lesson, and that other companies will heed this warning. Nonetheless, I am still seething over their malware that they installed without letting me know, and despite the apology, I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."
here and here
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.
Use the web version. One cost, no malware, and usable from anywhere with a browser!
$ man woman *
-bash:
"I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."
I'm not sure if TaxCut will be my choice permanently, but I am sure that I'll forever look for something other than Intuit.
Call me a jerk about it, or whatever. I just don't see why I ever need to give a business a second chance after they've been a ball-muncher. I just say "good bye" and never look back.
Intuit issues an apology? It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission How about Intuit starts showing their conscience by sending cheques to registered owners of the crippled software. Only then would I be convinced they mean it.
Trolling is a art,
Isn't this the shite that flipped a bit in the HDD boot record (in an unused area, of course) to show that it was "activated"?
To appease former customers, Intuit will be including a free Speaker Bracelet in-box with a purchase of next year's Turbo Tax. According to President Lardass of Intuit: We've got candle trucks of these things ready to go!
Intuit drops DRM feature from Turbo Tax
If Intuit was a monoploy, they would have stuck with their plan. But, since there good alternatives, they have to change their ways or give way. I wonder if such a backlash will work against WinXp activation. My guess is it won't due to the monopoly.
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
The headline is confusing to $50 - $75 percent of customers.
This was a hot issue in Feb-Apr of this year.. What took them so long?
I used TurboTax for my '01 taxes, but because of this incident I changed to Tax Cut last year. I will be sticking with Tax Cut.
I was pissed at Intuit before this incident anyway. They also play those shady rebate games. The TurboTax'01 box stated 'Free State Tax' forms. Once I opened it, I found it was not included, but needed to be downloaded - no problem. Go to download it, and they insist on charging me $20 for the download with the opportunity to mail in rebate forms for a refund. Screw them.
I'm proud to use gnuTaxes. It's a little rough as of version 0.0.4, but the price is right.
Frankly, I think that gnuTaxes is the way to go if you're looking for tax preparation software. Anyone who pays $30 for TurboTax deserves what they get.
For more information, click here.
Ok, here's what I want to know: Why is it that Intuit got such a backlash from this that they removed the protection scheme and even issued a public apology, but Microsoft gets away with the same thing and even worse yet with their Windows XP product activation? It baffles me how this kind of thing is just ignored when Microsoft does it...
Personally, I was ticked off at the activation mechanism; it was downright stupid for them to require installation *and* running of a resident program to ensure people don't steal their software when that software is (usually) used only once. I really want CDILLA running in background all year when I took 3 hours ONE TIME to do my taxes. Or, of course, it has to all be uninstalled (bear in mind, you were required to uninstall TurboTax *before* you could remove CDILLA... otherwise you wouldn't be able to uninstall TurboTax!).
I read a bunch of suggestions that would have made more sense for their security. For example, generate a key that uses the address used to file the taxes... sure, you still have the annoyance of having to contact them for a registration key, but you remove the necessity of having separate keys for different machines, and reinstall is a snap.
Of course, you could also key it off of a SSN, but that's a little too "big brother" for my taste.
Although it requires more trust on the consumer's part (ok, admittedly, I don't have this level of trust for Intuit), they could expand their online version of the tax software... not only control who has access, but you eliminate the annoyance of keeping old copies of the software around (for tax revision, whatever), updates, and even storage of old returns. And they save tons of cash on not distributing media.
It could be spun as a "win-win" for the consumer.
Nope... they chose to put a resident program on my computer. Using my resources to "protect" their property. Unacceptable.
Despite the affiliation with Microsoft, I too will be switching to TaxCut.
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
You mean the store chain that has people arrested if they bring a pad and paper and copy down prices to compare? (Washington DC a few years ago).
Or perhaps the Best Buy that advertised that NVidia (I think) video card, then took it back and said the offer was no good, and then called the cops when the one customer came in with the coupon and wanted his video card (That one was on Slashdot).
That must be the "customer friendly" Best Buy you are talking about.
Too often companies hear only negative things and don't hear from customers when they do the right thing. They boned up, apologized, and have said they won't do it next year. So why not let them know they did the right thing? At the bottom of their page with the activation numbers is a rating and comment box for how effective the solution was.
I used to work for the big H&R Block Taxcut tech support center in Kansas City, MO. I essentially worked tech support for their tech support... made sure their computers kept operating properly and such.
Anyway, my real purpose for posting is this: only switch to Taxcut if you absolutely have to. Even the people who wrote Taxcut openly admitted that TurboTax was by far the better software. Taxcut went into production largely untested at that point anyway (2001 tax year). Just my two cents I guess.
-----------------------------------------
Remove the Greed which plagues mankind.
Quicken has apologized to its customers and I can respect that. As an ex-quicken customer (buyer of over 5 years of its financial planner and tax program), I remain unmoved. There are several companies which have earned my "wrath" through betrayal of trust (Wachovia Bank, America West, Air Tran and Jet Blue Airlines being fairly prominent members on the List). It is inconceivable that I will do business with any of these organizations in the future....and so it goes for Quicken Corp. I have no personal vendetta against the employees of Quicken corporation, but I firmly believe in using my dollars (and the dollars of friends and family) to kill the corporate culture which gave rise to the concept of CD-Dilla. What can the corporation do to "make it up to me?"..nothing..the trust I had in the corporation is gone, and considering the alternative options available I see no reason to ever pay attention to attempts to restore it. I hope the corporation can make good use of its 2003 revenue stream, because they have lost at least 40 years of future revenue from myself, my family and friends. And yes - I'm still pissed.
Pyrmaid scheme o
The delicious irony of it all is that Intuit thought they could get more sales by treating their customers like criminals. Now the apology letters are flying and they are trying to get their market share back. I hope the RIAA is watching.
-R
TaxACT is free for federal. State is only $13 and $8 per return. I tried it last year; it's just as easy to use as the others.
p er sonal.asp
http://www.2ndstorysoftware.com/products/index_
Oh... I didn't think so.
Just sayin', ya know...
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Intuit's methods last year caused me to seek alternatives to their products. I had used TurboTax for 4 or 5 years, and use Quicken 99 still. I tried TaxCut and have no reason to go back to TT. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll switch my finances away from Quicken also (I need the online banking features. And no, I'm not going to use anything where my account info etc. is all stored anywhere but my local computer.)
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
We need this action (Intuit's use of DRM) to have a PERMANENT reduction/effect on their bottom line. Only then will other companies realize what a bad idea it is and not follow suit.
BC
Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers
/me shakes head and goes back to coding.
First there are business models based on litigation, now customers are bought instead of won?
I will never understand business..
do() || do_not();
Hey now Turbo, that joke was too Taxing at this time of the day. You need to wait until the coffee Quickens the pulse of us techies. It's a good thing you put the second line there; there's no way I could have been able to Intuit that it was a joke. I guess that In a Relevant Sense it was sort of funny, but only to people who weren't "out of it".
Actually they aren't protecting their IP from pirates. They are protecting their IP from casual copying. Real pirates can get around almost any type of copy protection. Product activation, in most forms, is pretty easy to crack if you know what your doing. Activation doesn't stop real pirates. Not much can.
I have always found product activation funny. While I understand the desire to protect IP, casual copying in many instances can result in greater revanue for a company. Just look at Microsoft. The monopoly they now enjoy is a direct result of casual copying. Everyone I know used to stay current with the latest release of Windows / Office. Some bought it, some copied it, but almost everyone had the latest release of the software. That gave Microsoft a lot of power and influence and they used it to their advantage.
Since the XP series, most users have not upgraded. If they run XP it's because it came with their computer. Same goes with Office. Now if a lower cost alternative is available many of them will probably be open to it. I've told several of my friends about Open Office and conviced them to download it rather than upgrade to Office XP (and now 2003). I doubt those people I know are the only people looking for an lower cost alternative to Office. Activation may end up being a real problem for Microsoft in the long run.
It's evil in this particular case because there were reports from many customers being told when they called in to re-activate software after an upgrade that they were thieves, and should go buy another copy.
It's evil in general, because by the time every software manufacturer is doing it, I'll have to make ~20 phone calls when I install that magic new video card that tweaks my hardware hash just enough...
and what happens when competing forms of activation schemes over-write each other's Secret Hard Drive Boot Sector Bit? Or when I go to install a dual boot with one of them 'Open' operating systems that makes use of that sector?
It's just not a good solution to the problem of casual copying.
I am the very model of a modern major general!
Revenue increased 29 percent, year over year, to $634.7 million. Net income rose to $294 million. All good -- except the company had told analysts to expect revenues between $685 million and $725 million./P
Revenue was $50 million to $90 million less than expected.
My personal tax solution has served me well for 5 years now. It was extremely affordable, did not require activation, runs on several platforms, works for an unlimited number of unique users, does not require updating between tax years, and will never expire.
Well, I suppose eventually, it'll get too short from repeated sharpenings, and I'll need to buy a new pencil... but you get my point.
Geez, people, do all of you guys file as your own business? Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada. Why are people so afraid of 'em? You get some slips in the mail, you copy the numbers over onto the forms, do a little math, and presto, you get some money back. They'll even double-check your numbers for you, and if you missed a deduction, they'll adjust for you, and you'll get more money back.
What's the big attraction about spending $30/year or whatever on the latest-and-greatest tax software, or paying some suit at H&R Block to do simple arithmetic for you?
Aren't we supposed to be among the smartest of society? Or at least among the most mathematically adept? Why the big fear? The satisfaction of filing your own taxes and doing it all on paper is pretty rewarding, I must say.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Except in this case Intuit decided that it would be a great idea to implement their product activation by writing information to the boot sector of the hard disk without bothering to warn the customer first.
As a result, many bootloaders ceased to operate because they were being overwritten by the activation. There is no justification at all for using the boot sector as a casual data storage area.
I purchased used every version since it was called MacInTax and published by Chipsoft. I now use TaxCut If they were really that concerned about protecting their IP they could have allowed the program to run only if an original CD was in the CDROM drive. Notice the use of an instead of THE this means any orginal TurboTax CD! This simple measure would have provided reasonable protection for IP while allowing the customer to move the program from machine to machine as they deemed fit. Instead they chose a intrusive program developed by macrovision which modified the disk drive and restricted the purchaser's ability to use the software on any machine other than the one it was originally installed upon. With this in mind I voted with my wallet and chose a more reasonable product and company.
I used Turbo Tax last year, now I have C-Dilla on my HD. Everytime I scan for malware the only thing I leave is C-Dilla because I need it to run Turbo Tax to check last year's filing. My question is can I use my frikin legally purchased copy of Turbo Tax now without C-Dilla. I don't give a crap about an apology. They treated me like a pirate for buying their software. I want that shit off my HD and I want to use my licensed software to check that digital copy of turbo tax for the next several years.
Can I? Anyone?
P.S. If after a bit of research I find I can do my taxes with another piece of software I shall. You can support these assholes if you like, I'm going to find someone I can trust more with my important financial data (that trust is about access to my own data as well as privacy, privacy is NOT the only concern), that right now means anyone who makes decent tax software and isn't called Intuit.
I think the difference with XP is that it generates the same hardware hash each time you install it if you haven't changed too much stuff, so it let's you re-activate w/o problems. Also, XP stores its data in %SystemRoot%\System32\wpa.dbl, NOT in the HDD's boot record (!)... the neat thing about this is you can just save this file if you are reinstalling/reformatting and just recover it next time and skip activation altogether.
Although I'll admit the activation isn't foolproof... it threw an "I don't think so Tim" at me last time I reinstalled, which meant I had to call MS. It's surprisingly a no-questions asked phone call... pretty much:
"Is this the only computer you're running this copy of XP on?"
"Yeah."
"OK here is your 10000-digit long cd key..."
Shouldn't we reward that? I mean, has "TaxCut" promised not to do idiotic things like this? Is it impossible to forgive an organization that makes mistakes? Why do we seem to have double-standards on these things? Is it cynicism, or stupidity?
I used TurboTax, and its predecessors, all the way back to 1985. That was three or four companies ago. It was always very satisfactory, and there seemed to be no reason to change, so I didn't change.
All they had to do to keep me as a customer forever was to not screw up.
Well, last year they screwed up. So I switched.
And you know what? As you'd expect in a highly competitive environment... the differences between TurboTax and TaxCut hardly amount to a hill of beans. In fact the general design of the programs is pretty similar and I barely had to consult the online help. On balance, EXCEPT for the product activation nonsense, the two products are roughly on a par.
If there had been any doubt in my mind, a few bad experiences with Intuit's so-called customer support resolved them. (I don't know how H&R Block's compares... because I didn't need to use it).
I _did_ need to re-enter a lot of my basic information from last year.
Switch back? Why should I go to the effort? I am now a TaxCut customer. And there's no reason at all H&R Block shouldn't be able to keep me for life.
All they need to do is not screw up.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
see Google Bug [slashdot.org]
Yes, but even this is unacceptable. I shouldn't have to ask "permission" to reinstall my operating system.
It really, REALLY bothers me that people put up with this bullshit. If no one did, MS wouldn't be able to pull it off.
Why aren't people as upset about XP's activation as they were about Intuit's?
"If Intuit folds, it could mean bad things for the industry."
When Divx died, DVDs went up in price.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
There were like 15 million TurboTax returns in 2001 - and 5.5 million copies of TurboTax sold.
/. After being ripped off by Intuit once, why should I go back?
This does not mean that there were 10 million pirated copies of TurboTax. This means that people did their own taxes and their mom's taxes and maybe their neighbor's taxes with the software they bought. I don't care what the EULA says, that is not piracy. You don't have to buy a new copy of Microsoft Office each time you write a letter.
It gets into another big argument, but the idea that companies can tell you how you are allowed to use their product after you legally purchase it is pretty flawed. The reason so many average people commit the crime of piracy so often is because the restrictions companies are trying to place on ridiculous. Why would someone think it would be illegal to do their mom's taxes with the software they bought? You don't have to buy another car if you let your friend drive it.
One of the advantages that using software has over using a CPA is that it can be used over again for the same price. Part of Intuit's problem was that what consumers saw as a big advantage in using their product, Intuit saw as a crime. In order to stop this percieved crime, Intuit took away one of the big selling points of their software.
I'm glad they eventually learned their lesson, but I'm with a lot of folks here on
Don't forget that Friday is Hawaiian shirt day.
I did, and I understand the issues perfectly.
It still plays DVDs just fine, and wouldn't have made your "investment" worthless if it had lived. On the contrary, I think if Divx had lived it would not have killed DVDs, but new release DVDs would still be $13 instead of $20. There is no reason why the two formats couldn't have coexisted and competed.
As for the DRM issues, do you think your privacy is any more secure with Blockbuster or your cable company? Do you ever use a credit card?
I understand why for certain special movies people want to "own" a DVD of it, but I don't think Divx ever threatened that. Killing Divx was in Warner Bros. best interest, not yours, and its death is just as much a money grab by the studios as you claim divx was a money grab by CC.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
this is what I sent them:
I'm a lost customer to you; it is unlikely that I would ever buy another Intuit product. I've been a paying customer of yours for years, both at retail and directly from you, but this year I bought TaxCut and am perfectly happy with it. I am still shocked that you think that treating your customers like thieves is a good business practice. I see you have an "unlock code" now for Quicken too, from the front page.
You're supposed to be in the business of SOLVING customers' problems, not CREATING them.
Casual copying probably helps you; it gets people hooked on your product, and it turns even people who didn't pay for it into advertising. If everyone is using a product, some percentage will always buy new versions, and if you provide a good quality, problem-free product, that percentage will most likely climb steadily over time. Mindshare really matters. If I ask five friends "what's the best tax program", and they all tell me Turbotax, that's going to have a much greater impact on me than three Turbotax votes and two TaxCut votes.
As you just discovered from watching your revenue plummet, getting 50% paid customers from three times the installed base nets you more money.
A personal example: I used my parents' copy of TurboTax for a few years back in the early 90s. Starting sometime around 1995, I converted into a paying customer myself. My "theft' of your product *turned me into a customer*. I bought the product for years. This year you lost me, and you probably won't get me back.
It is casual copying that got Microsoft where they are today. That casual copying, in fact, turned them into the one of the most profitable companies in the world. Don't think their use of DRM is helping them; it is causing fragmentation in their customer base. People are now actively resistant to upgrading to the most recent versions of things, and this is providing competitors like Linux an opportunity to expand at their expense. You can't see it as much yet, because Microsoft is a monopoly, but DRM is hurting them. Think of it as cracks in the foundation.
Intuit isn't a monopoly and has competitors to all of its products. Your decision to try to limit casual copying and to treat customers like thieves hurt you badly. I'm a lost customer. I know there are lots of others. And I'm not at all sure you're going to get many of us back.
TaxCut is really quite good, and I imagine I'll be checking out Money soon. And I'll most likely make a dreaded casual copy of Money to do it. Microsoft may not know it, but they want me to do that; any chance of converting me from a "deadbeat" into a paying customer is better than the zero money they're making from me now.
And if a friend asks me "hey, what's the best software to track my checkbook?", and I answer "Microsoft Money", well.... suddenly the "Quicken is best" message is no longer unanimous and maybe Microsoft makes a sale.
They do not listen to customers, they listen to revenue. They put in DRM believing it would increase their revenue; as the article says, "[Intuit] predicted that revenue would increase, since customers who had previously purchased only one TurboTax program would have to buy a separate copy for each computer in the house". No part of that plan serves the customer. Similarly, the only reason they changed it is because they lost a ton of money.
It just so happened in this case that customers were able to weild enough power to hurt their revenues. Thinking that they "listened to customers" is to miss the fact that they would have continued to screw customers as long as they could have squeezed more revenue out of them by doing so. That they changed course here is not to their credit in any sense other than that they're not pathologically oblivious to the failure of their plan to screw customers.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
The same one that has a 30 day return policy, and so,
when I attempted to return a christmas gift that someone had given me, they wouldn't take it back, as I had the receipt, which showed it was bought in November, so I would've had 2 days from Christmas to have returned it within the 30 days.
It was still in the wrapper, still had the 'Best Buy' price tag on it, I had the receipt, and I was just trying to get store credit. I think what pissed me off more was that I had to drive about 25 miles to the nearest Best Buy (Annapolis, MD) in the first place, and then stood in line for a good 45 minutes, and they just blew me off.
I haven't purchased anything from Best Buy since.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
You know, if you want a fair and decent way to do product activation, maybe the idea of tying the product to a single computer is taking the wrong approach...
How about using some sort of portable id storage device (like a USB keydrive or a Dallas Semiconductor Crypto I-Button) to store the activation. No more concerns about installing the software on hundreds of computers. Just tie the id storage device to the software somehow, and take the id device where-ever you need to run the software from.
How hard is that?
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
I'm glad they eventually learned their lesson, but I'm with a lot of folks here on /. After being ripped off by Intuit once, why should I go back?
If Intuit had the only decent tax software out there then I (and probably many others) would go back. But Intuit did this at a time when they face rather stiff competition from TaxCut and other software. I found TaxCut just as easy to use as TurboTax, not to mention slightly cheaper. It also did my taxes right the first time -- my wife cross checked things by doing them online w/ TurboTax and we spent a couple days figuring out why they came up with different numbers.
Oh, and as it turns out, TurboTax did it wrong. And fixing it required you to start over from scratch.
Yeah, I think I'll be sticking with TaxCut for the forseeable future.
Conversely, you get someone who's ignorant of tax law and *realizes* their ignorance, and they just scurry off to the CPA regardless of their return. (and, I note, there's no shame in this - tax law is *insane*)
And then, in the middle, are those who purchase TaxCut\TurboTax. They either A)think they know more than they do, or B)believe it's some sort of magic number-sorting program that will instantly produce a tax return for them with no amount of work on their part. I had some customers who legitimately believed they didn't even have to worry about the prompts, that the program would somehow magically "know" what was income, what was royalties, etc etc. (and, of course, if the luser manages to create for themselves a Schedule-C when all they did was have a garage sale, that's the program's fault, even though the prompts and explanations are written at about a middle-school level)
And don't even get me STARTED on those boneheads that thought they could use a $15 piece of software to cheat on their taxes like a $1500 CPA. "But I did this LAST year!" "Which means you got lucky and weren't audited, since it was illegal last year too." (I even had one guy *demand* I help him hide a home business under "Miscellaneous Income" because if a CPA can do it, TaxCut MUST do it for him. He got hung up on.)
I will say, if you know something about taxes to begin with, TaxCut IS a pretty good program. It had a few bugs in the calculations, but most were the staggeringly complex sort one or two people MIGHT stumble across through dumb luck. (and one REALLY idiotic bug involving proxy servers blocking e-filing, but that's another story) The problem is it's marketed (and priced) specifically towards those who LEAST need to be using it. So go on use it if you have a simple return, or if you have a decent understanding of home taxes and just need a hand with the math and specific forms. Otherwise, just get a CPA. It's safer.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.