Intuit Apologizes to Turbo Tax Customers

tstoneman writes "Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers over their product activation code. Let's hope that they have learned their lesson, and that other companies will heed this warning. Nonetheless, I am still seething over their malware that they installed without letting me know, and despite the apology, I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."

Comments

Alternative Link

[Sir Haxalot]

here and here

Not surprising...

[Millennium]

I wonder what half-brained "DRM" scheme they will come up with next year? Remember; this is not the first year they've tried draconian "anti-piracy" measures...

Re:Not surprising...

[harrkev]

Hello!

That was the whole point of this article! They are apologizing for introducing DRM. Last May they promised not to do it again. Repeat after me: "No more DRM. No more DRM. No more DRM."

Re:Not surprising...

[plover]

[ This is an exact copy of the letter I sent them (minus my last name.) You can imagine that TaxCut is the place to look for my money next year, although I have to admit I was somewhat surprised by their apology. ]

I am much less than unlikely to use TurboTax next year. The reason is
the secretive, unasked-for and unwanted installation of C-Dilla. I AM
NOT A THIEF, NOR DO I STEAL OR SHARE SOFTWARE. Yet you installed not
only a rent-a-cop on my computer, but you included a parole officer. I
resent the implication so much that I would spit on the screen if I
thought it would help.

You violated a cardinal rule of customer relationships. You didn't
trust me.

I don't care if you apologize. I don't care if it now magically
uninstalls itself. I don't care if you send me coupons, rebates, or
offer me free downloads and upgrades for life. I would rather do my
books and taxes manually than spend one more nickel on a product bearing
the Intuit taint.

Please feel free to post my comments on your company's bulletin boards
and in the employee cafeteria. Consider it my final gift to you. I
think it would be a service to all your employees to see how some
customers react when you treat them as thieves. Perhaps they'll learn
something before you produce next year's product, if you're still in
business.

Most Sincerely,
John Xxxx
Former Customer

Re:Not surprising...

[plover]

I was referring to their public apology.

Although I suppose I should admit to being somewhat grateful to them for taking the anti-consumer backlash DRM bullet for the industry. Without their infecting thousands and thousands of boxes with C-Dilla, the public might not have known just how evil DRM will be.

Of course, that's like thanking the burglars who drove you to install an alarm system that protected you from a devastating fire; or thanking the muggers who beat you up and put you in the hospital where the doctors incidentally went on to discover and treat a cancer.

I doubt seriously we will see Microsoft similarly apologize for the Trusted Computing platform. (At least not until that one comedian is thanking our new penguin-loving overlords.)

Re:Not surprising...

[pphrdza]

they promised not to do it again

From the article:

Company spokeswoman Julie Miller said Intuit remains concerned about protecting intellectual property but realized that the anti-piracy technology used last year was not the answer.
``What the software industry has to find is the right tool that enables them to both meet the needs of the customer and protect the intellectual property,'' she said.

Some promise.

Expenses

[a.deity]

$50-90 million? Or 50-90 million customers?

They lost both.

Re:Expenses

[pudding7]

The headline is confusing to $50 - $75 percent of customers.

Re:Expenses

[swordboy]

Customers... Money...

What's the difference?

I say support them

[CyberSnyder]

They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.

Re:I say support them

[reaper20]

If they were _really_ listening to customers they wouldn't have done this in the first place.

Re:I say support them

[squarooticus]

Or kill them, and no company will ever think of crossing its customers like that.

As as result of the Divx debacle from over 5 years ago, I still won't shop at Circuit Shitty. And I suspect I'm not the only one. I have to imagine that this has had some impact on the rise of Best Buy in the northeast.

Re:I say support them

[BWJones]

They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.

This is great and I would be more than happy to support them after this, but this biggest sticking issue with me and Intuit is the apparent incompatibility with their data formats between the Mac OS and Windows of Quickbooks. What is the deal with that? They say that databases can be transferred "once", but going back and forth is impossible.

Re:I say support them

[Anonymous Coward]

>They're showing that companies can actually
>listen to their customers.

No, they are only showing that they REACT when HORDES of angry customers express their vehement anger and start actively working to destroy the company -- they don't acknowledge it until the horde starts to succeed though.

I don't see this as any reason to acknolwege Intuit, much less to give them any business. They broke my trust, in an area where I yield ZERO TOLERANCE for breakdowns of trust: My fianances.

Re:I say support them

[Curunir_wolf]

I say don't.

I used turbotax every year for several years (yes, I bought my own copy), but I heard about the DRM in the last version and went with H&R Block's software instead (cheaper anyway, and imported my old turbotax files just fine).

It's nice that they seem to realize they made a mistake, but an apology won't get me back as a customer. They tried this once, and have proven simply that they cannot be trusted. That trust (especially for financial software) is important, and it will take a lot more than some lame apology to rebuid that trust.

Re:I say support them

[lavalyn]

Sounds like a Dilbert type decision to me.

Punish the customers less. Then every lesser punishment will feel like a reward.

Of course, that would just mean they still get to ream you up the ass the first time around... I say we should set an example of Intuit instead, and completely shut them down, so other companies take note of the blazing carcass left.

Re:I say support them

[retro128]

Or don't support them and show other companies that customers don't forgive easily. I fall into this category.

Re:I say support them

[trailerparkcassanova]

I don't recall them shoving Divx down our throats. It was a stupid idea that didn't take off. You must have bought a Divx player?

Re:I say support them

[squarooticus]

Good lord, do I need to spell out everything in perfect detail? I was one of the people who bought a DVD player and then found out about this Divx shit, and didn't want my investment made worthless by CC's money grab.

No one who had Divx vs. DVD explained in detail to them would buy a Divx player. This is precisely why it failed. :)

Re:I say support them

[Evil Adrian]

I, for one, welcome our new DRM-less overlords!

Re:I say support them

[bradm]

I agree, except that the whole point is that there is a switching cost. You tend to use the same package you used the preceding year.

As an '01 and before customer who opted not to use them in '02, I'm not switching back in '03 unless they overcome the switching costs for me - say by sending me a free copy of the equivalent products to those that I used in '01.

Sure, it won't win them back the revenue for '03, but that's already lost. It will get them some for '04 and beyond.

Re:I say support them

[LurkerXXX]

Exactly. They will never get another dime of my money. TaxCut has a new regular customer now.

Let the companies know they have to check with some of their customers before they try any type of major restriction like this, and they can't just shove it down our throats and expect us to just take it. I'm sure a focus group would have quickly told them that people did NOT want this sort of restriction. They weren't concerned about that. They are the 'top dog' in tax software so they figured we'd be stuck with it. Thank god for competition. Support the companies that actually think about their users.

Re:I say support them

[gfxguy]

Too bad Best Buy is the prime example of customer no-service. Best Buy has a huge number of complaints in the customer service area, and while I don't have anything to complain to the BBB about, I've had enough bad service there that I will no longer step foot in one.

I have the same rule about Circuit City, and I've had it since long before Divx.

Too bad I'm a in a minority of people who expect good customer service, because there's no other explanation of why Best Buy is doing so well. I guess people don't mind being treated like crap if think they'll save a few dollars.

Re:I say support them

[ZorinLynx]

I very rarely ask store employees for help in making a buying decision. They are generally clueless in that department. They are sometimes helpful in finding things that I'm looking for, if I know exactly what to ask for, though.

I actually prefer it this way. I was wandering through Brandsmart the other day and employees were harassing me every frickin' four minutes. I much prefer the blissful peace of Best Buy, where I can browse in peace and only talk to an employee when *I* initiate the conversation.

Re:I say support them

[Spamlent Green]

This is somewhat off-topic, but while Circuit City is certainly one of the most consumer-unfriendly places (in fact, I hate CC and haven't been to one in over 6 or 7 years), I suspect it was the demise of Lechmere that had more to do with the relative ease in which BestBuy suddenly appeared in the northeast (or at least, New England).

Re:I say support them

[chrysrobyn]

They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.

So, you're suggesting that I, as someone who heard about the tricks Intuit was making with Turbo Tax and pre-emptively moved to H&R Block's TaxCut should congratulate and thank Intuit for seeing the light and give them money for realizing they screwed the pooch?

In 2002 (FY 2001), I used Intuit's Turbo Tax on the web. It sucked. It was slow and I couldn't easily look stuff up 6 months later. I was thankful to Intuit for the service, and vowed to buy their standalone software.

In 2003 (FY 2002), I heard about Intuit's treatment of their customers and, having learned my lesson about using web tax preparation, bought TaxCut. Much more responsive, no DRM problems and I was happy with the results.

In 2004 (FY 2003), I will buy TaxCut again. I appreciate the fact that I have never heard of them treating their customers like criminals, and their product this year has bought my loyalty.

Re:I say support them

[johndoesovich]

I have to agree to both sides. It was a huge headache when I had to reload last years Turbo Tax 2 times on a computer my boss had at home. Each time I had to contact technical support and get a new activation key. There were several calls put into them, several of the support reps had no idea what I was talking about. The horrible part was that damn case # expired shortly after which caused to me have to call them again and start over. Oooooh, so pissed me off because I could not make it to his house nor did he actually do it himself. Back to calling them again. I have already decided to have someone do mine this year (due to complications). We'll see where they are next year to determine whether or not I will use their software.

Re:I say support them

[acroyear]

Best Buys are, like all retail stores, reflective of the local store's managers and hiring practices.

The Best Buy in Sterling, VA has been very supportive in the service genre, when compared to the stunned silence I got at the nearby Circuit City and Office Depot. I've gotten less attention at, say the Annapolis, MD store by comparison, but this store in Sterling will have my business until something changes.

Re:I say support them

[ichimunki]

So let's see. You bought a piece of technology and you're hopping mad that someone came out with a very similar technology that never even came close to accomplishing the thing you feared the most?

Re:I say support them

[naarok]

I often ask the store employees for help at Best Buy. I don't do this for info, I do it for entertainment. Baiting those poor sales buddies is great fun!

Re:I say support them

[the-matt-mobile]

They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers

You know what... I don't see this as an apology as much as I see it as just market-speak. Now, if they went the extra mile and released a patch allowing buyers of last year's Turbo Tax to install it in the future* without the activation, then maybe I'd be more apt to buy their product someday. However, as it stands this looks to me like they're sorry they lost customers to TurboTax (myself included) rather than being sorry that they sold a crippled product.

* - Why you ask? So that people could keep their historic tax records electronically without worry of not being able to access them someday

Re:I say support them

[squarooticus]

that never even came close to accomplishing the thing you feared the most?

Thanks in large part to the efforts of people like me, which of course destroys your argument.

Re:I say support them

[borg389]

Did you actually read the letter?

It was moderately offensive, imo. "Last year, some TurboTax customers were inconvenienced as a result of being prevented from using the software on multiple computers. While many of you had no problem, some of you did. And that's what concerns me most."

Some. Arg. I couldn't even successfully get it working on one machine. The last half of the letter is merely marketing crud.

This letter actually ticks me off more. It's not much of an apology if the dang thing reads like it was written by a marketing guy.

I'm more intent than ever on never using any Intuit product.

Re:I say support them

[scumdamn]

Ok, BWJones. Put the flaming torch down for just a second and listen:
The only competitor to Intuits Quickbooks (on Windows) is Microsoft Money. If you want to funnel more money into Microsoft's pockets, you'll attack Intuit. If you want to reward a company for learning its lesson, you'll support Intuit. I'm one of the people who will support Intuit if I need a personal finance software because Microsoft already requires activation for its software and they have not learned their lesson yet.

Re:I say support them

[seebs]

No. You support companies who DON'T DO OBVIOUSLY IMMORAL STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Keep in mind, this "apology" is timed to coincide with the beginning of the ad season for tax software. It, like everything else Intuit does, is unrelated to any truth, built only to make you feel the way they think will make them the most money.

They spam, they lie, they hijack computers. Their "apologies" have never amounted to anything in the past; why should they now?

If they extend the apology to include paying for professional removal of their malware, that might actually be meaningful. As is? Words are cheap, and words from liars mean nothing.

Re:I say support them

[frane]

The only competitor to Intuits Quickbooks (on Windows) is Microsoft Money

It has been a few years since I've used Quickbooks, but I don't think that Microsoft Money is, or even intended to be, a competitor for it. Quickbooks is accounting software intended for small businesses. It does a/r, a/p, invoices, estimates, etc. Its competitors include Great Plains software (purchased by Microsoft a few years ago), and a few others I can't think of right now.

Perhaps you are thinking of Quicken?

Re:I say support them

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think it might have more to do with selection, inventory, pricing and pushy sales people on commision.

Re:I say support them

[squarooticus]

No, I'm not pissed off. I'm just willing to remove CC from my shopping options because it's the principled thing to do.

Re:I say support them

[BWJones]

Put the flaming torch down for just a second and listen:

Flaming torch?!!? What are you talking about? I said I would be happy to support them, but given that the individuals and companies I deal with are cross-platform, Quickbooks needs to also be truly cross-platform and it is not.

Re:I say support them

[gfxguy]

I do realize that most problems of this nature are localized, but the BBB has a huge number of complaints from all over.

Customer service only begins at "helping" a customer shop. There's the matter of long lines to checkout, problems when returning items, price matching and price shopping, nagging customers into buying extended warranties.

The straw that broke the camels back, in my case, was a Saturday morning with a packed store and only one out of 12 checkout lines open. People were lined up all the way back through the CD section. I put my stuff down and walked out and never went back.

A coworker of mine told me a similar story (from a different Best Buy, although in the same general area, of course). He was on a long checkout line, and so one store employee told some people they could check out at the customer service desk. They walked over and the woman at the counter said "nuh uh, no way, I ain't checkin' y'all out."

Nice.

Circuit City is a damned sight better, but I still don't like a lot of their policies. They wouldn't sell me something over $100 without my phone number. When I told them "you realize I'm just going to make one up?" they said they didn't care. Then my wife bought a PS2 for her brother, and gave our real phone number (I'd like to throttle her for doing it) and someone elses name came up. Go figure. She insisted on shopping there because she discovered the PS2 price drop on their website before it was officially announced. The people at the store were even surprised when it rung up at 179. Still, she could have waited one day and gotten it anywhere, so I was pretty annoyed.

Re:I say support them

[vagostino]

No...they're listening to their fiscal forecast, which is telling them they're going to miss out on previously guaranteed, recurring TurboTax revenue because they were a bunch of idiots. If they were listening to their customers, they would have issued this apology back when they screwed us all over...not when the time comes for us to pony up for another copy of tax software. As an aside, another piece of info that seems to have been overlooked in this whole mess is that Intuit shipped a ton of CDs with the wrong activation code printed on them. It took me 4 phone calls and 2 weeks before I could even use their software because the activation code was for the wrong version. I've seen numerous posts with people mentioning the same problem. I can't beleive Intuit is that retarded. This has turned me not only into a lifelong TaxCut user, but I've switched from Quicken to MS Money also.

Use the web version

[HTMLSpinnr]

Use the web version. One cost, no malware, and usable from anywhere with a browser!

Re:Use the web version

[HBI]

Your data files disappear after 9 months.

I had that happen when I used the web version in 2002. Fuckers.

Buy the binary version.

Re:Use the web version

[MadHungarian1917]

Place all personal financial data on a system running IIS just waiting for the next 'leet skript kiddie to take advantage of the next glaring vulnerability so they can own your bank accoount. I dont think so.

Re:Use the web version

[HTMLSpinnr]

Woops, not one cost - however, it is low cost (lower than the software package) and there's little to activate. Plus, it retains previous year's returns to import into this years return.

Re:Use the web version

[Anonymous Coward]

I used TaxCut last year for the first time (long time TurboTax user). I'll be the first to admit that TurboTax has sucky features, but the suckage of TaxCut was an order of magnitude greater than that of TurboTax.

After filing my taxes I wrote Intuit a letter stating that:

1. I was a long time TurboTax user.
2. I had used TaxCut to avoid their activation stuff
3. I thought that TaxCut sucked
4. I was going to use TaxCut (or something else) again if they persisted with this silliness

I got a nice email back stating that they had learned their lesson (or at least had been beaten into submission by their users and were going to play nice for now)

I'll be using TurboTax again this year.

Re:Use the web version

[Zepalesque]

Saddly, the web version works only with Internet Explorer.

Re:Use the web version

[Asgard]

Don't trust someone else to keep that data; either save the 'full' pdf (with all the schedules and such) or print it out. Or both.

Re:Use the web version

[lysander]

I've done this for the last two or three years, and it's been great.

This last time around they offered to keep my info active for more money, but, really, saving the pdfs works well enough.

Re:Use the web version

[larry bagina]

Hi. I've used TaxCut the past 2 years (I used to do my taxes manually, but I had some capital gains and couldn't quite understand how the forms were supposed to be filled out). I went with TaxCut for price reasons. How would you say TurboTax is better than TaxCut?

Re:Use the web version

[fr2asbury]

I've beent using it the last couple years with Mozilla on Linux.
Saving my PDFs like a couple other commenters suggested.

Jonathan

Re:Use the web version

[pdhenry]

The online version, while cheaper, only does the "interview" and doesn't allow you to directly enter data onto the forms. Example: The interview section on "Other Taxes" omits several nuisance taxes ("employment privilege" and the like). With the "real" version I can just go to the itemized deductions form and add that in after the interview. With the online version I'm forced to lie in the charitable contributions section to get the same deduction...

Re:Use the web version

[nyseal]

I've also used both software programs but I'm still an avid TaxCut user and have been since 1997. It's somewhat amazing, in 1999 I PURCHASED TaxCut, Turbo Tax and Tax Saver just to see the differences. I entered all the same information into each of the three programs (took about 3 days, btw) and received 3 different tax return results; TaxCut returning the most. I reviewed each of the 3 results several times for accuracy and could not account for the discrepancies. I'm not a CPA or tax lawyer so I count on the software package I purchase to correctly identify the proper exemptions and ask the right questions for a proper return. IMO, TaxCut asks more thorough questions throughout the tutorial to ensure a proper return filing than the other 2 and the results are double checked with an 'audit buster' feature that even analyzes differences in your W2 statements (like 401k programs). I'm an avid TaxCut user because I trust it, it's thorough and I've always received the best return based on its analysis. Just my HO.

50-90 million?

[Nick of NSTime]

That's a big range, especially if you're talking about customers. 50-90 million customers would be, what, $100 million to $180 million in revenue?

Re:50-90 million?

[LostCluster]

No, $50-90 million with the dollar sign already there. No, you don't get to double-inflate, that was already a revenue stat...

Bye-bye Intuit

[spazoid12]

"I will be moving to Taxcut permanently from now on."

I'm not sure if TaxCut will be my choice permanently, but I am sure that I'll forever look for something other than Intuit.

Call me a jerk about it, or whatever. I just don't see why I ever need to give a business a second chance after they've been a ball-muncher. I just say "good bye" and never look back.

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[SydShamino]

Yes, I don't care how much they apologize, they've lost my business already. And I think I have convinced my dad to switch too, as I just had to walk him through installing the patch to uninstall the spyware.

I do wish that I had found something other than TaxCut (= HR Block + Microsoft). I looked around at other packages (open source, shareware, freeware), but I didn't see anything that could import my old returns, cover all the forms I expected to file, and generally seem "mature" enough to trust my taxes to.

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[larry bagina]

Tax laws are ridiculously complex (if they weren't you wouldn't need tax software). You really need a team of lawyers and accountants, which TurboTax, Tax Cut, etc. provide.

I sure wouldn't trust a 15 year old kid, a socialist hippy, or some guy in a foreign country to write tax preparation software.

That pretty much disqualifies any open source/freeware/shareware tax packages.

Considering the time/headache of doing it yourself vs an accountant vs tax software, I think the software is a good deal.

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[jeffphil]

I tried TaxAct last year per the many recommendations of alternatives to TurboTax post on /. last tax season.

I tested just about everything, and even sent an email to support to see the response and it was very quick and responsive.

Won't be going back to TurboTax or Intuit for that matter, since they also crippled QuickBooks if you remember. When's their apology for that one coming?

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[big_oaf]

I do wish that I had found something other than TaxCut (= HR Block + Microsoft).

What in the world are you talking about? Taxcut is part of H&R Block. That's it. Sure, Block usually offers MS Money at a discount/free if you buy Taxcut, but trust me, that's the extent of the relationship.

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[SydShamino]

Sorry, I don't trust you. Microsoft and H&R Block have been building a business relationship for years to take on Intuit together.

From a March 2000 PC World article:

It's the marriage of an Internet heavyweight with the undisputed champ of tax preparation tools in the bricks-and-mortar world: Microsoft is dropping TaxSaver after this season, pairing with H&R Block's TaxCut to jointly take on the leader, Intuit TurboTax.

Microsoft will see through the remaining three weeks of the tax season, says Ed Bland, group product manager for Microsoft Personal Finance Software. It will still sell federal versions of TaxSaver and support some 300,000 TaxSaver customers through the federal tax extension deadline of October 16.

But next year, TaxSaver customers are invited to upgrade to H&R Block's TaxCut program. Microsoft already has a relationship with H&R Block; it markets the electronic version of TaxCut on MSN Money Central.

But soon the link will be stronger.

Microsoft and H&R Block's tax software subsidiary Block Financial will develop native data links between TaxCut and Microsoft Money personal financial management software. And the firms will develop ways for you to integrate your online financial activities, including online tax preparation, with the 70,000 tax experts in H&R Block's 9000 storefront offices, says Gene Goldenberg, senior vice president with Block Financial. ...

After a fitful two years in the tax business, Microsoft opted for Block's TaxCut, which is the caliber of Intuit's TurboTax and has about a quarter slice of the $150 million tax software pie. ...

Microsoft realized more than two years ago that it's cheaper to buy tax expertise; that's how long it's been negotiating a strategic alliance with H&R Block, Bland says. ...

Block will be exclusive provider of online tax preparation software downloads and boxed software sale references from the many MSN Web sites for three years. The MSN portal in general is one of the top five Web destinations, Bland reports.

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[big_oaf]

I'm willing to concede that HRB and MS have a marketing relationship. What I was trying to say is that there is no technical relationship. MS does not do any processing for HRB. After all, isn't it's MS technical ability that we're all worried about, not their marketing?

Re:Bye-bye Intuit

[SydShamino]

Microsoft's marketing arm is far more dangerous than their technical arm. I have nothing against a product that makes good software - or a company that makes bad software, depending on your opinion of Microsoft - as long as users can make their own decisions and choose alternatives, and those alternatives are allowed to compete on the same level.

What I have against Microsoft has everything to do with their business and marketing wings and little to do with their technical wing.

Disingenuous scum.

[grub]

Intuit issues an apology? It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission How about Intuit starts showing their conscience by sending cheques to registered owners of the crippled software. Only then would I be convinced they mean it.

Re:Disingenuous scum.

[HeXetic]

They actually have released universal activation codes (like the much-pirated MS "Corporate" keys) for the 2002 version, so people who are still using that don't have to put up with actiation any more. It's not as good as giving money back, but it's a lot better than just saying they're sorry and it won't happen again.

Boot record

[cscx]

Isn't this the shite that flipped a bit in the HDD boot record (in an unused area, of course) to show that it was "activated"?

Re:Boot record

[Brendan Byrd]

Yep. It also meant that you had to call their office EACH time you installed it on a new PC or reformatted PC to get a new verification code. Hiliraty (and lawsuits) ensue.

Re:Boot record

[spockman]

Definitely a bad idea by Intuit. I got around it by Ghosting my HD before installing, doing my taxes, Ghosting again to a CD set for archiving purposes in case I needed it again, then restoring my system the way it was prior to the install, with an fdisk /mbr to be on the safe side.

Are you sure?

[Rostin]

Oh, I see, you are. When you said "permanently," I wasn't certain.. but "permanently from now on" makes it all crystal clear.

shoot me

[wrinkledshirt]

I guess people are deciding that they're no longer into it?

Read it once more if you didn't get it.

Re:shoot me

[Mattcelt]

Hey now Turbo, that joke was too Taxing at this time of the day. You need to wait until the coffee Quickens the pulse of us techies. It's a good thing you put the second line there; there's no way I could have been able to Intuit that it was a joke. I guess that In a Relevant Sense it was sort of funny, but only to people who weren't "out of it".

Trying to run this into the ground...

[blackmonday]

To appease former customers, Intuit will be including a free Speaker Bracelet in-box with a purchase of next year's Turbo Tax. According to President Lardass of Intuit: We've got candle trucks of these things ready to go!

Re:Trying to run this into the ground...

[Carl_Cne]

are they candle trucks, or truck candles?

hrm...

[Gerad]

"Mountain View-based Intuit plans to publish the letter as an advertisement in Thursday's editions of USA Today and The Wall Street Journal. The letter also will be posted on several Web sites."

I wonder if slashdot is one of those websites they were planning on posting the letter on as an advertisement? ;)

Blast from the past

[mao che minh]

Remember this?

Intuit drops DRM feature from Turbo Tax

The result of not being a monopoly

[civilengineer]

If Intuit was a monoploy, they would have stuck with their plan. But, since there good alternatives, they have to change their ways or give way. I wonder if such a backlash will work against WinXp activation. My guess is it won't due to the monopoly.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[Baron_Yam]

As someone who is currently wrestling with Redhat 9.0 in an effort to wean himself off of Windows... I'd say MS will have an effective monopoly for some time to come.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest difference is that people install tax software every year and are much more likely to install it on multiple machines. My boss is a great example of one of these people who Intuit never meant to piss off. He pays for everything and wouldn't dare bootleg but he installed TurboTax on his home computer and then realized he would be better off doing the work on his laptop but couldn't install it without calling Intuit. Needless to say he was pissed.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[badasscat]

As someone who is currently wrestling with Redhat 9.0 in an effort to wean himself off of Windows... I'd say MS will have an effective monopoly for some time to come.

I'm going to burn a bit of my karma on an OT post just to help out a RH9 brutha. Do yourself a favor and download the atrpm's kickstart of Apt. Then get Synaptic to go with it. It'll change your whole outlook on RH9 and Linux in general. Seriously, unless you're a real techie who wants to get his hands dirty, there's no need to really ever deal with the command line again, and no need to mess with dependencies either. I just did a dist-upgrade last night and what would have taken hours a year ago took me literally five minutes. The importance of these two applications together has really been understated by a lot of people in the Linux community; for desktop users I think they're pretty essential. Should be default packages in every desktop distro.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[HiThere]

I'd like to recommend that instead you use RH 8.3...but they didn't make it. So Instead I'll recommend that you buy Mandrake 9.1 (NOT 9.2). Newbies who are tech adverse should avoid the newest releases, and the x.0 releases. Unfortunately, Red Hat seems to have decided to only offer the x.0 releases...usually ok for me, but not for a newbie (and not something I'd put on a system that I needed to depend on).

Avoid the bleeding edge. That's where you cut yourself. (Consider Red Hat 7.3, if you can find one. But be sure that the patches are still around. I think that it's still supported, and I remember that as a solid release that offered nearly everything that I liked about Red Hat 8(.0). Also consider a KRUD subscription. They check and patch Red Hat distributions before rebranding them.

OTOH, if you really like the MSWind appearance, you might look at Lycoris, Xandros, or Lindows. I'm not sure how current they stay, but they try to create desktops that feel welcome to MSWind users.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[HiThere]

Advice that usually works...but I haven't bought a computer with MSWind on it in years:

Usually there is a command during the boot process that will slip you into the ROM editor. But it varies a lot between motherboards, so it might be cntrl-s or it might be escape or it might be F-4 or... Check the motherboard documentation. Edit the rom parameters to boot from CD (& floppy). If you boot from a dos floppy, use the Linux version of fdisk to delete existing partitions. If you boot from the Linux CD, it will offer you the option of using the entire disk. Take it up.

If that doesn't work:
Move the hard disk from /dev/hda to /dev/hdb (change it's position on the drive cable). Add in a different one that is either blank, or has a non-abusive OS on it. Set to boot from CD. Install.

If that doesn't work, restore computer to original condition, and return it as non-functional.

Re:The result of not being a monopoly

[Snaller]

I will not use XP until they drop Activation.

Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[Krapangor]

If a company chooses a product activation scheme which doesn't transmit any personal data and allows the change of hardware etc then I don't see why product activation should be evil.
The company is just protecting their IP from pirates. And come on a quick internet connection or phone call is neither expensive or much effort, especially given the prices of software these days. There should be sophisticated schemes for mass installs of course.
But any complaints beyond that usually come from people who are angry that they can't get warez of Tax/Word/Office/Game blubb anymore. I don't know why companies should deactivate product activation to support thieves.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[Stonent1]

IIRC they put some stuff on your HD in places that could screw up your system if you dual booted Linux and windows.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[iggly_iguana]

They are not removing the product activation to support thieves. They are removing it because they refused to discuss what changes were being made to the computer, so people who BOUGHT software chose to buy from somewhere else. (Yes, I was an Intuit user who tried TaxCut for the first time because of this).

They are apologizing because they told their customer base "This is how it will be", so Intuit's paying customers left....

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[Luscious868]

The company is just protecting their IP from pirates.

Actually they aren't protecting their IP from pirates. They are protecting their IP from casual copying. Real pirates can get around almost any type of copy protection. Product activation, in most forms, is pretty easy to crack if you know what your doing. Activation doesn't stop real pirates. Not much can.

I have always found product activation funny. While I understand the desire to protect IP, casual copying in many instances can result in greater revanue for a company. Just look at Microsoft. The monopoly they now enjoy is a direct result of casual copying. Everyone I know used to stay current with the latest release of Windows / Office. Some bought it, some copied it, but almost everyone had the latest release of the software. That gave Microsoft a lot of power and influence and they used it to their advantage.

Since the XP series, most users have not upgraded. If they run XP it's because it came with their computer. Same goes with Office. Now if a lower cost alternative is available many of them will probably be open to it. I've told several of my friends about Open Office and conviced them to download it rather than upgrade to Office XP (and now 2003). I doubt those people I know are the only people looking for an lower cost alternative to Office. Activation may end up being a real problem for Microsoft in the long run.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[saarbruck]

It's evil in this particular case because there were reports from many customers being told when they called in to re-activate software after an upgrade that they were thieves, and should go buy another copy.

It's evil in general, because by the time every software manufacturer is doing it, I'll have to make ~20 phone calls when I install that magic new video card that tweaks my hardware hash just enough...

and what happens when competing forms of activation schemes over-write each other's Secret Hard Drive Boot Sector Bit? Or when I go to install a dual boot with one of them 'Open' operating systems that makes use of that sector?

It's just not a good solution to the problem of casual copying.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[Spad]

Except in this case Intuit decided that it would be a great idea to implement their product activation by writing information to the boot sector of the hard disk without bothering to warn the customer first.

As a result, many bootloaders ceased to operate because they were being overwritten by the activation. There is no justification at all for using the boot sector as a casual data storage area.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[ErikZ]

Interestingly enough, their very effective protection scheme has cost them up lost sales. Up to 90 million dollars.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[MadHungarian1917]

I purchased used every version since it was called MacInTax and published by Chipsoft. I now use TaxCut If they were really that concerned about protecting their IP they could have allowed the program to run only if an original CD was in the CDROM drive. Notice the use of an instead of THE this means any orginal TurboTax CD! This simple measure would have provided reasonable protection for IP while allowing the customer to move the program from machine to machine as they deemed fit. Instead they chose a intrusive program developed by macrovision which modified the disk drive and restricted the purchaser's ability to use the software on any machine other than the one it was originally installed upon. With this in mind I voted with my wallet and chose a more reasonable product and company.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[MadHungarian1917]

Correction 'I purchased used' should be 'I purchased and used' Too much blood in the caffeine system.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[J. J. Ramsey]

The Jargon File's definition of copy protection:

A class of methods for preventing incompetent pirates from stealing software and legitimate customers from using it. Considered silly.

Intuit's own "copy protection" proved to fit this definition a little too well.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[Professor Bluebird]

Also, IP is loaded terminology according to RMS.

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[shepd]

>The company is just protecting their IP from pirates

Actually, they weren't.

They were just trying to stop their software from being used like a book. Why, I have no idea. Perhaps they're stupid (these losses do sorta prove that notion).

>And come on a quick internet connection or phone call is neither expensive or much effort, especially given the prices of software these days.

Good point. I guess when you have so much money to invest into expensive single use software, you should be able to afford being on hold.

>But any complaints beyond that usually come from people who are angry that they can't get warez of Tax/Word/Office/Game blubb anymore.

LOL. As if! :o)

>I don't know why companies should deactivate product activation to support thieves.

Since when did product activation stop people from shoplifting?

Re:Why should be decent product activation evil ?

[GoofyBoy]

Because I bought the software (or a reasonable license to use the software), not interest in the welfare in the company.

If the company goes bankrupt or decides to not support the product (not give out any keys because that is supporting the product) then I effectively have lost use of the software.

Too much power in their hands for something I paid for.

Huh?

[Monkey-Man2000]

You mean they're not suing them?

Let them know you do not accept the apology...

[sk3tch]

...or let them know you do accept it...here:

https://orderupdate.intuit.com/corporate.asp

Re:Let them know you do not accept the apology...

[ddillman]

Thanks for posting that! I immediately went and sent them a comment that the 'apology' isn't sufficient, and I'll be recommending other products.

Re:Let them know you do not accept the apology...

[Malor]

this is what I sent them:

I'm a lost customer to you; it is unlikely that I would ever buy another Intuit product. I've been a paying customer of yours for years, both at retail and directly from you, but this year I bought TaxCut and am perfectly happy with it. I am still shocked that you think that treating your customers like thieves is a good business practice. I see you have an "unlock code" now for Quicken too, from the front page.

You're supposed to be in the business of SOLVING customers' problems, not CREATING them.

Casual copying probably helps you; it gets people hooked on your product, and it turns even people who didn't pay for it into advertising. If everyone is using a product, some percentage will always buy new versions, and if you provide a good quality, problem-free product, that percentage will most likely climb steadily over time. Mindshare really matters. If I ask five friends "what's the best tax program", and they all tell me Turbotax, that's going to have a much greater impact on me than three Turbotax votes and two TaxCut votes.

As you just discovered from watching your revenue plummet, getting 50% paid customers from three times the installed base nets you more money.

A personal example: I used my parents' copy of TurboTax for a few years back in the early 90s. Starting sometime around 1995, I converted into a paying customer myself. My "theft' of your product *turned me into a customer*. I bought the product for years. This year you lost me, and you probably won't get me back.

It is casual copying that got Microsoft where they are today. That casual copying, in fact, turned them into the one of the most profitable companies in the world. Don't think their use of DRM is helping them; it is causing fragmentation in their customer base. People are now actively resistant to upgrading to the most recent versions of things, and this is providing competitors like Linux an opportunity to expand at their expense. You can't see it as much yet, because Microsoft is a monopoly, but DRM is hurting them. Think of it as cracks in the foundation.

Intuit isn't a monopoly and has competitors to all of its products. Your decision to try to limit casual copying and to treat customers like thieves hurt you badly. I'm a lost customer. I know there are lots of others. And I'm not at all sure you're going to get many of us back.

TaxCut is really quite good, and I imagine I'll be checking out Money soon. And I'll most likely make a dreaded casual copy of Money to do it. Microsoft may not know it, but they want me to do that; any chance of converting me from a "deadbeat" into a paying customer is better than the zero money they're making from me now.

And if a friend asks me "hey, what's the best software to track my checkbook?", and I answer "Microsoft Money", well.... suddenly the "Quicken is best" message is no longer unanimous and maybe Microsoft makes a sale.

Re:Let them know you do not accept the apology...

[cdrguru]

The problem isn't casual copying. If you make a copy for a friend, that's advertising. If you post a copy on a web page for 10,000 people to download, that is a problem. The problem they are trying to solve.

If this problem isn't solved, venture capitalists and other investors simply won't consider software a reasonable place to invest. Too little return, too much risk. Funding disappears from software and ends up with biotech. Or something else - anything but software.

This is everybody's problem, because even the largest companies have to show investors they are being responsible with money. Allowing rampant piracy (or theft of software) isn't being responsible. Why would you buy stock in an irresponsible company?

Re:Let them know you do not accept the apology...

[Malor]

I actually disagree with this. As long as the expectation isn't that the software is free, and that the person copying the software knows it is wrong to do so, then even large-scale copying isn't that large a problem.

If Joe Badguy sends out 10,000 copies of Quicken, then at least some of those people are going to upgrade Quicken by paying for it in later revisions. This may result in MORE revenue, not less. In addition, those 10,000 people A) have not given Microsoft any money, B) are using and learning to like Intuit's product, and C) may recommend it to their friends.

If copying becomes really widespread, it could become a problem... if it becomes so accepted that common sense says "it's stupid to pay for Quicken when you can just copy it", then perhaps Intuit wouldn't be able to make money.

Note, however, that this HASN'T HAPPENED YET. Intuit has made HUGE amounts of money with very little copy protection. They trusted their customers, focused on them, solved their problems, and in exchange they made boatloads of cash.

But instead of focusing on their customers, now they are focusing on "all those deadbeats". Intuit is trying to strong-arm pirates into buying the software they copied. This hurts the usability of the software for people that DID and DO pay them money, in an effort to extort money from people who HAVEN'T. Those people who haven't paid for it probably have reasons for it, and while Intuit can undoubtedly coerce some of them into paying, they inconvenience their existing customers enough that they lose more than they gain. They are thinking purely in terms of "deadbeats" and not at ALL about marketing and word of mouth and network effects.

Trying to force someone into a business relationship is not a long-term route to profitability. (although the Mafia may disagree with me there. :-) )

Microsoft can get away with this stuff because, for most people, there are no alternatives. Most people think they have to use Windows; they probably don't even realize there's any real choice. That's how Microsoft can get noxious ideas like Product Activation through.

Microsoft, being a monopoly, IS in a position to force people to do things they don't want to. Intuit is not, and they may have just learned that lesson.

It's a bit late, isn't it?

[-tji]

This was a hot issue in Feb-Apr of this year.. What took them so long?

I used TurboTax for my '01 taxes, but because of this incident I changed to Tax Cut last year. I will be sticking with Tax Cut.

I was pissed at Intuit before this incident anyway. They also play those shady rebate games. The TurboTax'01 box stated 'Free State Tax' forms. Once I opened it, I found it was not included, but needed to be downloaded - no problem. Go to download it, and they insist on charging me $20 for the download with the opportunity to mail in rebate forms for a refund. Screw them.

Re:It's a bit late, isn't it?

[ckotchey]

If I remember correctly, wasn't October of this year supposed to be when they re-issued, (for free, presumably) the turbo-tax for 2002 without the DRM features, so that you could later use it in the future to look back on your past tax returns? I'd think that explains the timing.

Re:It's a bit late, isn't it?

[himself]

>
> Go to download it, and they insist on charging me $20 for the
> download with the opportunity to mail in rebate forms for a refund. Screw them.
>
And we just got our refund check last week. After filing four (or was it five?) times. Whatta bunch of tools.

Re:It's a bit late, isn't it?

[pmz]

What took them so long?

It took them four months along with two market research firms to determine that, in fact, customers don't like getting screwed.

Re:It's a bit late, isn't it?

[happylinuxguy]

They probably were taking all this time to try to implement another form of DRM technology, but couldn't roll it out in time, hence this notification in October, and not in Jan/Feb.

Re:It's a bit late, isn't it?

[Reziac]

I also bought TurboTax 2001, and it pissed me off by forcibly installing IE5.5 *without notice*. To add insult to injury, the blasted thing wouldn't LET me download the state tax forms at all. No apology, in fact no response at all when I complained to tech support.

This year, between that and activation, there was no question that I'd use something else. With grand irony, I wound up using the free online version of TurboTax!

But they've lost me as a paying customer, because between TTax behaving like a virus, the Quickbooks "tax table subscription" scheme, and their fling with copy protection, they've completely negated my former longstanding trust in their products.

And if you can't tell, I'm still not tired of bitching about it. As the marketing wisdom goes, a happy customer tells 7 others; an unhappy customer tells at least 11 others, in much more vehement detail.

Re:Open source, please.

[generic-man]

I'm proud to use gnuTaxes. It's a little rough as of version 0.0.4, but the price is right.

Frankly, I think that gnuTaxes is the way to go if you're looking for tax preparation software. Anyone who pays $30 for TurboTax deserves what they get.

DRM sux

[Whammy666]

I was prefectly happy when I switched to TaxCut. It imported my previous year's returns from TurboTax and was generally very easy to use. Plus it was less expensive. And there was no DRM to fight with and no crap being secretly written to my boot block. I think Intuit really shot themselves in the foot over this. I have no intention of going back to TurboTax, apology or not. There's no reason to now.

A bit off topic, but I wonder how Valve's draconian DRM system called Steam is going to fair in the long run? I haven't seen a DRM system that has done well in the market yet. Could Steam be the first or will it pull an Intuit?

Re:DRM sux

[Brendan Byrd]

Huh? In Half-Life 2? This is the first I've heard of it. (Of course, with the source code being leaked and all...)

Re:DRM sux

[mcSey921]

Uh... How about the one attached to Windows XP? That product seems to be selling fairly well:)

Double Standards?

[dre80]

Ok, here's what I want to know: Why is it that Intuit got such a backlash from this that they removed the protection scheme and even issued a public apology, but Microsoft gets away with the same thing and even worse yet with their Windows XP product activation? It baffles me how this kind of thing is just ignored when Microsoft does it...

Re:Double Standards?

[Anonymous Coward]

True, and also, remember that WinXP isn't just an application like TurboTax, but the operating system on which all of your applications depend.

I'm utterly dumbfounded (or maybe just utterly dumb) at the number of tech-savvy people who allow their entire machine to be controlled remotely by Microsoft. I do not accept the notion of DRM in mission-critical software like my OS, which is why I'll keep running Win2K until I can no longer buy software for it.

Re:Double Standards?

[Trigun]

I think that it was the contempt that they showed customers when they had hard-drive failures, did upgrades, or changed machines. They were told in no uncertain terms that they would have to buy another copy of the software, where MS offers a bit more compassion.

Re:Double Standards?

[0x0d0a]

Intuit has no monopoly.

Microsoft does.

It doesn't take all that much pondering.

Re:Double Standards?

[GoofyBoy]

I hate all Product Activation schemes like XP/Intuit have.

I didn't buy XP and went for Linux 100% based on this factor.

Re:Double Standards?

[Pointy_Hair]

Nope. Works the same with operating systems as it does for tax software. If you don't like it, use a different product.

Re:Double Standards?

[krammit]

I don't know about you, but I won't use XP anywhere I have the choice and recommend the same to friends and family. I wouldn't even consider installing Windows Media Player 9. It's one thing for XP to tie itself to my hardware, it's another entirely for it to report my po...media habbits back to MS as well. I wouldn't be suprised if the media cartels started asking MS for its "anonymous" WMP usage statistics. Good times...

Re:Double Standards?

[fishbowl]

Windows XP didn't break my GRUB.

Windows XP doesn't live in the space of financial applications, and has not asked me to trust my money in its charge, not directly anyway.

Windows XP activation is actually pretty reasonable, to my mind. It's a bit better with MSDN versions. It's annoying, but it does not rise to the level where I consider it to be a crime against my property and interests.

I'll spell that out:

I consider what Intuit did, to be a crime against my property and interests. And to make matters worse for them, they abused a position of trust to the point that I can never trust them again. The standards for trust go way, way up, when you occupy that tiny space between me and my financial assets, get it? I have zero tolerance in this space, and a short fuse for getting angry when that tolerance threshold is crossed.

If Intuit wanted my business, then they needed to stay in compliance with my requirements for a party to take stewardship of my assets. Having failed to do so, and even doing intentional damage borne of willful neglect for my security, interests, protection of my assets and property, I am left with no choice but to cease what had been a long, happy relationship with the company.

I bought and used every version of TurboTax, every version of Quicken, and several versions of Quickbooks. I represent the worst kind of lost opportunity for a business: I was a repeat customer who purchased every release of their product from the very beginning. And they have so egregiously violated my sensibilities (I really do consider it a crime), that I am neither interested in ever doing business with them again, nor am I interested in hearing their limp "apology."

There is absolutely nothing they can do that would get my business back, unless maybe they change their name and catch me off guard somehow.

Windows, on the other hand, for all their garbage, hasn't offended me or damaged me personally. They can count on my renewal of my MSDN subscription, XP activation or no XP activation.

Re:Double Standards?

[HiThere]

I trust you read the EULA. MS has your permission to do much worse to you than Intuit did. And they don't have to tell you that they did it.

To rephrase, if I understand the MS EULA correctly, with XP you gave them permission to copy off all your financial records and sell them on the black market. Also permission to alter your financial records on a whim (presuming that you keep them on the computer).

It is true that they haven't been proven to have done any such thing. But they have your permission, and they don't need to let you know that they've done it.

I understand the person who gave away a computer rather than agree to that EULA, I just think they gave up too quickly. I'm sure there must be a way around the "ACCEPT" at first boot.

P.S.: The EULA probably isn't legally binding, but they aren't talking about getting a court to enforce it. They're going to have an auto-access routine enforce it. You will be the one who needs to go to court to get protection from them, and that's a much tougher position to be in.

Re:Double Standards?

[Snaller]

No, if you don't like it - boycot the bastards until they behave honorably... oh wait, they are a monopoly you have no choice.

Re:Double Standards?

[cookiepus]

Okay here's the difference, dre.

WinXP product activation hampers piracy by making it less straight forward to pirate a copy. I don't know anyone whose legitimate use of WinXP was hampered by activation.

Intuit's product activation hampered legitimate use. It was literally impossible to get the damn software installed even if you bought the CD.

There's nothing wrong with companies protecting their releases against casual piracy. And it does work, as I was reminded just the other day:

GF (1:30:05 PM): hey ed, how do i uninstall something?
ME (1:33:18 PM): what are u uninstalling
GF (1:34:02 PM): well my mom's friend gave us exell and microsoft word as well as power point, but i cant use it so i want to uninstall it
ME (1:34:11 PM): why cant u use it
GF (1:34:38 PM): its saying that its registered on someone else's comp so i cant use it

A normal human being doesn't know to look for pirated ISOs or cracks. As far as normal people are concerned, "borrowing an Office CD from mom's friend" was an easy way to get it, but it's no longer so. The easiest solution, then, is just to buy it. Obviously it doesn't much hamper pirates w. more sophistication and time on their hands, but they are not a large percentage of the potential install base.

So yea, XP activation may be annoying to you, but the worst a legitimate user would have to go through is calling MS to get issued a new CD key. Whereas Intuit users couldn't get the damn program to work. Period.

Re:Double Standards?

[fishbowl]

You know, all those problems go away if you refrain from plugging your computer into a network to which "they" have access.

It's still not a very good comparison. I don't interpret the EULA the same way you do, and I think you're being a bit sensationalist about the whole thing.

The bottom line is, Intuit violated a relationship that had been built on trust -- that would *ONLY* have been built on trust. Microsoft may have worse things in store, but they haven't used them yet to do damage to me. And Intuit has.

So, I can still do business with Microsoft (and I'm NO fan of theirs, mind you.) But I cannot touch Intuit. They crossed a line that simply isn't crossed, beyond which is basically a death sentence as far as I'm concerned. I won't buy food from a place that gives me food poisoning, and I won't buy Intuit products for reasons that I hold even more strongly than that.

The food place can apologize if they want to, but the apology from Intuit is inappropriate, and irrelevant.

I'm pretty picky when it comes to who gets to touch my finances and how, and you should be too. Dragging Microsoft into this might be worthy of discussion, but it is completely beside the point.

Re:Double Standards?

[JamesP]

Because for Windows XP its just simple activation. Intuits program is loaded w crap.

Re:Double Standards?

[cookiepus]

I wasn't aware of that particular issue, and infact I know of a few instances (back when I was doing support as a college sophomore) where a call to MS and the new activation number did the trick. However, I will gladly grant you this point, and still contend that these cases are far more rare than the universal troubles with TurboTax.

Your friend jumped through some hoops and got XP to work. I hope. You could jump through hoops till you were blue the face and TurboTax wouldn't.

voting with dollars

[breman]

That is great to see top management listening to the customers, and apologizing, even if it was only after they spoke out with thier money, or lack there of.

I still tend to think that other companies like those of games makers and OS's, would still be able to get away with implementing activiation codes. Money issues are what people feel most need for privacy using software.

Hopefully...

[Pig Hogger]

Hopefully, there's a stupid dope with an MBA diploma in his pocket who's on the popular soup line right now.

Other mechanisms for "securing" software?

[Not_Wiggins]

Personally, I was ticked off at the activation mechanism; it was downright stupid for them to require installation *and* running of a resident program to ensure people don't steal their software when that software is (usually) used only once. I really want CDILLA running in background all year when I took 3 hours ONE TIME to do my taxes. Or, of course, it has to all be uninstalled (bear in mind, you were required to uninstall TurboTax *before* you could remove CDILLA... otherwise you wouldn't be able to uninstall TurboTax!).

I read a bunch of suggestions that would have made more sense for their security. For example, generate a key that uses the address used to file the taxes... sure, you still have the annoyance of having to contact them for a registration key, but you remove the necessity of having separate keys for different machines, and reinstall is a snap.

Of course, you could also key it off of a SSN, but that's a little too "big brother" for my taste.

Although it requires more trust on the consumer's part (ok, admittedly, I don't have this level of trust for Intuit), they could expand their online version of the tax software... not only control who has access, but you eliminate the annoyance of keeping old copies of the software around (for tax revision, whatever), updates, and even storage of old returns. And they save tons of cash on not distributing media.
It could be spun as a "win-win" for the consumer.

Nope... they chose to put a resident program on my computer. Using my resources to "protect" their property. Unacceptable.

Despite the affiliation with Microsoft, I too will be switching to TaxCut.

Re:Other mechanisms for "securing" software?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, you could also key it off of a SSN, but that's a little too "big brother" for my taste

Exactly! Could you imagine what could happen if your SSN was linked to your tax returns!? =)

Re:Other mechanisms for "securing" software?

[Rich0]

generate a key that uses the address used to file the taxes

However, this blocks fair use. Why should you have to pay per-return?

If I and 100 of my friends buy a copy of TurboTax Super-Duper-Edition and split the cost 101 ways and then:

1. Install the software.
2. Generate my return.
3. Uninstall the software.
4. Pass to friend.
5. Rinse, Lather, Repeat...

It is perfectly legal! It is only illegal to make 101 copies of the software. As long as only one person uses the software at a time, it is legit.

This is commonly done with tax software - the average person only uses it once anyway. And often you have friends/relatives who could use it.

Anti-piracy is one thing (and IMHO usually not worth the inconvenience it causes users, since the pirates end up cracking it anyway). Breaking legitimate use is another.

I know of tons of people who frequently go online to download cracks for their favorite games. And that is so they can apply the crack to LEGAL copies of the game that they PAID FOR. Why? Because the copy protection requires you to stick the disk in the drive every time you use it. I used to have an old IBM PC sans-HD with two double-density drives that I barely tolerated that with. Ever since the creation of the hard drive it is a step backwards to require that a user stick a disk in a drive to use a software product.

Re:Other mechanisms for "securing" software?

[ShavenYak]

If Intuit really had any sense, they'd use a more 'razor and blades' strategy. Give away Turbo Tax, and make their money on the electronic filing fees. I typically buy one copy of Turbo Tax, and end up filing over half a dozen returns for friends and family. My filing fee is free with the rebate coupon in the box.

However, if Intuit raised the fee by $5 and gave the software away, in the end they'd get about the same amount of money from me and the friends and family. Also, if the software is free, they don't have to worry about piracy, and also might not have to produce physical CDs for a lot of customers. I'd gladly download it, as I'm sure a lot of other folks would.

Heck, they could even open-source the damn thing, and we'd get Turbo Tax for Linux, and they'd get free programming assistance. A win-win situation!

Best Buy?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the store chain that has people arrested if they bring a pad and paper and copy down prices to compare? (Washington DC a few years ago).

Or perhaps the Best Buy that advertised that NVidia (I think) video card, then took it back and said the offer was no good, and then called the cops when the one customer came in with the coupon and wanted his video card (That one was on Slashdot).

That must be the "customer friendly" Best Buy you are talking about.

Re:Best Buy?

[squarooticus]

"Consumer friendly"? When did I say that? When did I even imply that?

Besides, what you describe are isolated incidents, probably due to individual overzealous store managers. Who cares. The Divx situation was a lot worse: the Circuit City main office attempting to shove premeditated, primitive, and inconvenient DRM down all our throats through a deceptive advertising campaign and at the expense of whatever good will there was in the DVD consortium.

Yeah, all companies do some bad things along with some good things. You have to pick and choose your battles, and that was an important one, IMO.

Re:Best Buy?

[radd0]

You can't just go around making claims like that!

Atleast, not without backing it up!

-r

Re:Best Buy?

[brocheck]

They also killed a friend of mine's brother.

Negative things

[onyxruby]

Too often companies hear only negative things and don't hear from customers when they do the right thing. They boned up, apologized, and have said they won't do it next year. So why not let them know they did the right thing? At the bottom of their page with the activation numbers is a rating and comment box for how effective the solution was.

Re:Negative things

[GoofyBoy]

>don't hear from customers when they do the right thing

They do through sales of their product. Thats louder than any comment on some support page.

Re:Negative things

[Anne_Nonymous]

They knew they were doing wrong and they did it anyway. They were trying to screw me and didn't get away with it. Now it's my turn; bend over Stephen M Bennett.

Re:Negative things

[QuackQuack]

business isn't touchy-feely like that. It sends a much more effective message to still go elsewhere. This sends the message "Don't piss your customers off."

If people accept the apology, and give Intuit another chance, this sends the message that it's ok to risk pissing off your customers, because you can always just apologize later.

Remeber, it's easier to ask for forgiviness than for permission.

So the question is

[elmegil]

When are they going to apologize for requiring Internet Exploder 5.5 for Quicken 2004 to work? In Q2000 I could force it to use Netscape with 128 bit encryption, but no such luck with the new one. Of course by the time I figured this out the box was open, and there's no chance CompUSA is going to take a return....

Re:So the question is

[Reziac]

Oh, have you seen my rant on TurboTax 2002 forcibly installing IE5.5 on my system -- without a hint of notice and without any way to stop it?

IE5.5 proceeded to fubar Win98, and even after being IEradicated (twice), uninstalling TTax, and reinstalling IE5.00.2314 (the one "good" version, IMO), resource management is STILL not right. It cost me several hours of work, and if you can't tell, I'm still not tired of bitching about it.

When I complained, and asked for info on what specifically could be done to fix the matter, I didn't even get a *response* from Intuit tech support.

So after 8 years or so of being a loyal customer, they lost me. Activation just confirmed that I'd made the right decision. Apologies come too little and too late. Establishing that they're once again the reliable company whose software I *used* to buy will be a mighty tough sell.

Trust is easy to break, and hard to win back.

I guess only monpolies can get away with DRM

[sproketboy]

... on software. You know who I'm talking about. :)

Each company will learn for themselves.....

[wo1verin3]

Adobe is introducing product activation, Symantec has added product activiation to the latest Norton Antivirus product for consumers, and I know someone who works for another large consumer software company who will be introducing activation. In addition, Macromedia was rumored to be adding activation to StudioMX but I haven't heard if they went through with it or not.

This will be a growing pain until enough companies realize that they're only pissing off consumers because those who want to copy it will find a way.

Re:Each company will learn for themselves.....

[zangdesign]

A lot of consumers will get pissed off, not complain, and then copy the software anyway. Some of them won't even worry about it, and make a copy because that's what they were planning to do. Some them will not care one way or the other and use the product anyway; no complaining there. Some will switch to something else.

Only a very small percentage will actually complain about it, and that number will be way smaller than any of the other types of users.

I'm just guessing here, but I bet I will be right.

Methods of copy protection are evil.

[Trigun]

Put the activation on an included USB dongle, instead of the hard drive. Easy-to-use product activation, plus a USB drive. Make the drive difficult to reproduce, but operate as a standard drive, and you got happy customers instead of pissed off ones.

Re:Methods of copy protection are evil.

[Trigun]

For a once-a-year use program, I could see it working. For everyday programs like Office or Photoshop, it would not.
If Intuit gave me a USB keychain with their software, I would use it. Plus you could store your taxes on it for next year. The only way it would be useless is if USB bacame obsolete, but then the program only lasts for one year anyways.

Taxcut

[Artana Niveus Corvum]

I used to work for the big H&R Block Taxcut tech support center in Kansas City, MO. I essentially worked tech support for their tech support... made sure their computers kept operating properly and such.
Anyway, my real purpose for posting is this: only switch to Taxcut if you absolutely have to. Even the people who wrote Taxcut openly admitted that TurboTax was by far the better software. Taxcut went into production largely untested at that point anyway (2001 tax year). Just my two cents I guess.

Re:Taxcut

[rootofevil]

not to mention tax cut is pushed by microsoft (bet you didnt know that one) in its retail training stuff.

Their copy-protection sucks though

[JFMulder]

We bought "Impots Rapide" from Intuit last year to do our taxes for the year (you know, the ones where you give almost half the money you earned this year? I don't know the proper word in english, sorry). It came with an activation code. When you started the software, it gave you another number. You had to call Intuit and give them the number in the manual and the number on your screen. They gave you a third one to unlock the software on the computer. "Great, I though, wait till we buy a new computer..."

Well, what had to happen happened. We bought a new computer, and when we tried to install "Impots Rapide" with the code Intuit gave us, it of course didn't work anymore, because the code that is given on the screen when you start it for the first time is based on some info about your computer, so we had to call them back.

Though we were only a phone call away from reactivating the software, I still had to wait 15 minutes to get in touch with a representative, and I don't like to have to phone the company I bought the product from to reactivate it because I did something as simple as buying a new computer.

And it's not like I really have any other choice. It's either that or doing my taxes with a pencil and an eraser. I've been doing my taxes with the computer for 6 years now, and it only takes an hour each time. I'm not sure I want to go back to the old fashionned way and waste two or three evenings. And I can send my taxes report electronically, so I can get back my tax refunds two weeks after sending them, instead of waiting a few months.

Corporate Death Penalty

[Wetkarma]

Quicken has apologized to its customers and I can respect that. As an ex-quicken customer (buyer of over 5 years of its financial planner and tax program), I remain unmoved. There are several companies which have earned my "wrath" through betrayal of trust (Wachovia Bank, America West, Air Tran and Jet Blue Airlines being fairly prominent members on the List). It is inconceivable that I will do business with any of these organizations in the future....and so it goes for Quicken Corp. I have no personal vendetta against the employees of Quicken corporation, but I firmly believe in using my dollars (and the dollars of friends and family) to kill the corporate culture which gave rise to the concept of CD-Dilla. What can the corporation do to "make it up to me?"..nothing..the trust I had in the corporation is gone, and considering the alternative options available I see no reason to ever pay attention to attempts to restore it. I hope the corporation can make good use of its 2003 revenue stream, because they have lost at least 40 years of future revenue from myself, my family and friends. And yes - I'm still pissed.

Re:Corporate Death Penalty

[Space Cow]

>

Just curious, what did Jet Blue do? I have had nothing but excellent service from them. When I had delays due to bad weather on Seattle->NYC flight last December, they ended up handing out $50 travel vouchers to many of the people waiting (through games and such). Then weeks later I got another $150 worth of travel money via email. That earned my respect for them.

Re:Corporate Death Penalty

[Wetkarma]

To quote Wired Magazine: JetBlue Airways confirmed on Thursday that in September 2002, it provided 5 million passenger itineraries to a defense contractor for proof-of-concept testing of a Pentagon project unrelated to airline security -- with help from the Transportation Security Administration. The contractor, Torch Concepts, then augmented that data with Social Security numbers and other sensitive personal information, including income level, to develop what looks to be a study of whether passenger-profiling systems such as CAPPS II are feasible. All this in violation of Jet Blue's stated privacy policy.

TaxCut Problem

[imscarr]

I used TaxCut last year because I didn't like what intuit was doing. I imported my previous years TurboTax file and added new data. I got to one screen that complained about a date and crashed TaxCut. It would not reload my saved data.

I called for help and they told me to start all over again - sheeesh!!!

I had to edit the binary TaxCut file with vi and slowly change date numbers until I finally got it to load again.

Oh the irony...

[retro128]

The delicious irony of it all is that Intuit thought they could get more sales by treating their customers like criminals. Now the apology letters are flying and they are trying to get their market share back. I hope the RIAA is watching.

Re:Oh the irony...

[retro128]

As a general rule I don't like to respond to AC's, but your response seems more eloquent than most, so I'll bite.

The irony is in the fact that in order to bolster sales, Intuit added activation to TurboTax in hopes that forcing customers to buy their product will enhance their bottom line. Instead, they came in $100 million below projected revenue because of the backlash from it.

Comparing this to the RIAA is less apples and oranges than you think. By instituting DRM, and in fact outright suing music fans (their customer base) they hope to spur sales through fear. Of course, this will backfire horribly in much the same way. Oh yes, p2p traffic will drop off, but that won't translate to new album sales. Everyone's just going to wait for an anonymous p2p app, or get their fix from offshore servers. The one thing they will not do is give money to the RIAA.

And I don't know about you, but I don't need the fluff the RIAA is churning out to survive, so my answer to your question "What if I want to listen to a particular artist that has an RIAA label?", my answer is "Don't".

Re:Oh the irony...

[HiThere]

Do *YOU* know which record companies are a part of the RIAA? I've just defaulted to assuming that they all are (it's a long list, and not worth my while to memorize).

So I don't buy any music on a label that I recognize, or with a reference to a company, even in the small print, that I recognize. This is unfair, but less so than what the RIAA is doing. To be that unfair we'd need to torch their houses, with them in it.

I.e., they are predicting that we can't do anything to stop them, and they have bought laws to ensure that there isn't a legal recourse. And they've hired lawyers to ensure that there isn't even an outside chance of a legal recourse. And then they've bought more laws...so "legal" has no ethical value in anything concerning the RIAA. Practical, perhaps, but not ethical. They have done more harm than spammers have even attempted. They show less shame. They subject their contractors (musicians) to peonage. They sell fradulent merchandise. Etc. This is done not to only a few people, but to many. A reasonable legal answer would be around 1000 years in prison with unpleasant companions (i.e., not a country club). But as they have effectively prevented that, something analogous would be just.

Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent. Now I can go back to pirating TurboTax!

Are they really this clueless?

[grasshoppa]

When Intuit launched the copy-control program, it predicted that revenue would increase, since customers who had previously purchased only one TurboTax program would have to buy a separate copy for each computer in the house.

...and...

To its credit, Intuit listened to these complaints and reversed course. "We're taking a mulligan," says Julie Miller, a company spokeswoman. "The customer reaction was unexpected."

Ok, so you want to charge people a couple hundred ( most versions of their software run at least that much ) bucks for a software package. That's cool. Now, where they used to be able to install it on various computers so they could, you know, get work done, NOW you want to charge them PER COMPUTER. So, instead of 400 bucks, we're talking 800/1200/1600 for a single household.

What the fuck did they expect from their customers, a parade?

Won't work

[Mycroft_514]

USB drives require USB 1.1 and some 2.0 Many people out there don't even support USB 1.0, let alone higher.

Out of 4 machines at my house, 2 do not run USB, one runs 1.0 and the other 1.1

Dongles are worse than product activation! If you had lived thru the Parallel port versions you would know that.

Last year, when my Dad wanted to do his taxes that way, his only 2 machines didn't support USB at all.

I'll stick to pencil and paper thanks. I mean these people can't even figure out that my state is one of 2 that has NO state income tax (and release a product specifically geared for the state income tax as well)!

TaxACT is cheaper

[yokimbo]

TaxACT is free for federal. State is only $13 and $8 per return. I tried it last year; it's just as easy to use as the others.

http://www.2ndstorysoftware.com/products/index_p er sonal.asp

Re:TaxACT is cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the same thing. Intuit really pissed me off, and I decided not buy their tax software ever again.

I switched to TaxACT, and I really liked it. I paid $19.99 for the pakcage, and I got Federal and State as well as included Federal filing. That might have included State filing, but I don't remember.

Re:TaxACT is cheaper

[Oscar26]

Ditto! I love taxact. I paid $9.99 for federal and I didn't worry about state (Here in PA you can do your state income taxes free online, a nice service provided by our friendly state government)

I often wonder how many residnent in PA go out an purchase state filing software. I'm sure H&R Block and others push it onto customers.

I disagree

[0x0d0a]

As more and more people have Internet connections, software vendors are beginning to realize that they can rely on almost all users to have an Internet connection, and can exploit this fact.

Eventually, they will become ASPs (especially with one-off software like annual tax software) where important chunks of functionality run server-side. No more piracy.

Hey Microsoft are you listening?

[Roached]

Oh... I didn't think so.

As someone who did TaxCut tech support this year..

[JayBlalock]

(the horror, the horror) might I respectfully suggest that, if your tax return is more complex than a 1040 and maybe a few stock trades, just hire a CPA.

Just sayin', ya know...

Windows XP?

[exhilaration]

Isn't that also how Windows XP's activation scheme works?

Re:Windows XP?

[dissy]

> Isn't that also how Windows XP's activation scheme works?

No, windows installs its data in its registry. Not the boot records.

Re:Windows XP?

[cscx]

I think the difference with XP is that it generates the same hardware hash each time you install it if you haven't changed too much stuff, so it let's you re-activate w/o problems. Also, XP stores its data in %SystemRoot%\System32\wpa.dbl, NOT in the HDD's boot record (!)... the neat thing about this is you can just save this file if you are reinstalling/reformatting and just recover it next time and skip activation altogether.

Although I'll admit the activation isn't foolproof... it threw an "I don't think so Tim" at me last time I reinstalled, which meant I had to call MS. It's surprisingly a no-questions asked phone call... pretty much:

"Is this the only computer you're running this copy of XP on?"

"Yeah."

"OK here is your 10000-digit long cd key..."

Re:Windows XP?

[cscx]

It's actually in a database file, not the registry... see my other post.

Re:Windows XP?

[ZorinLynx]

Yes, but even this is unacceptable. I shouldn't have to ask "permission" to reinstall my operating system.

It really, REALLY bothers me that people put up with this bullshit. If no one did, MS wouldn't be able to pull it off.

Why aren't people as upset about XP's activation as they were about Intuit's?

Re:Windows XP?

[Brendan Byrd]

People should be upset, but it's not as bad as TurboTax, which actually put data in your boot sector, an area that it has no business touching. Even if Windows did that with XP, at least Windows is an OS, which is at least more authorized to be playing around with the boot sector than a lowly piece of tax software.

Re:Windows XP?

[jargoone]

which meant I had to call MS. It's surprisingly a no-questions asked phone call... pretty much

You're lucky. I got a copy of Outlook 2002 with my Ipaq. I installed it on my laptop, activated over the internet, then later decided to install it on my desktop instead. My phone call was a little more difficult than yours.

MS CSR: "You have already installed this?"
Me: "Yes, and I want to install it on a different system."
MS CSR: "Did it come with your laptop?"
Me: "No. It came with my Ipaq. It's a Pocket PC."
MS CSR: "I'm not familiar with an Ipaq Pocket PC."
Me: "It's a PDA. A handheld computer. You know..."
MS CSR: "Oh, right. It can only be on one system. Is it installed on your Ipaq Pocket PC?"
Me: "No, it's for use in conjunction with it."
for (i = 0; i < 10; i++)
{
MS CSR: "Is it still installed on your laptop?"
Me: "No. I'm only going to use it on my desktop now."
}
MS CSR: "OK here is your 10000-digit long cd key..."

The instant I saw the "Thank you for activating" message come up, I was so pissed that I just hung up on him. The incompetence of the rep just killed me.

For once in my life, I decide to not pirate something, and this is what I get. Never again.

Re:Windows XP?

[cscx]

The instant I saw the "Thank you for activating" message come up, I was so pissed that I just hung up on him. The incompetence of the rep just killed me.

I would have to agree that I had a more intellectually stimulating conversation ordering a cheeseburger at McDonalds yesterday than talking with their phone reps.

Re:Windows XP?

[Phydoux]

Actually, I was upset about it.

I was so upset that I voted with my wallet.

I bought a Mac.

Sorry

[BigChigger]

Intuit's methods last year caused me to seek alternatives to their products. I had used TurboTax for 4 or 5 years, and use Quicken 99 still. I tried TaxCut and have no reason to go back to TT. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll switch my finances away from Quicken also (I need the online banking features. And no, I'm not going to use anything where my account info etc. is all stored anywhere but my local computer.)

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

We need this action (Intuit's use of DRM) to have a PERMANENT reduction/effect on their bottom line. Only then will other companies realize what a bad idea it is and not follow suit.

BC

eh?

[devphaeton]

Intuit has issued an apology for aggravating $50-90 million in customers

First there are business models based on litigation, now customers are bought instead of won?

I will never understand business.. /me shakes head and goes back to coding.

Or just free?

[NeverReminder]

I used TaxAct last year, it's free (no need for me for state edition) and only ~$10 for e-filing. Don't think I would like to trust software version 0.0.0.4 with my finances, anyway

Why bother?

[opusbuddy]

I switched to Kiplinger's and found it to provide the same function, cheaper. Why bother going back now that I've got this year's directory for next year's taxes?

Some one mentioned Adobe. Someone should tell them that PDF may soon mean "Please Don't Flee."

There is a valuable lesson here, that Bezos and others have learned the hard way: Don't Piss Off the Internet.

RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Revenue increased 29 percent, year over year, to $634.7 million. Net income rose to $294 million. All good -- except the company had told analysts to expect revenues between $685 million and $725 million./P

Revenue was $50 million to $90 million less than expected.

Re:Divx?

[squarooticus]

No, I didn't, dumbass. I think you want to try an alternate reading.

Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[Kombat]

My personal tax solution has served me well for 5 years now. It was extremely affordable, did not require activation, runs on several platforms, works for an unlimited number of unique users, does not require updating between tax years, and will never expire.

Well, I suppose eventually, it'll get too short from repeated sharpenings, and I'll need to buy a new pencil... but you get my point.

Geez, people, do all of you guys file as your own business? Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada. Why are people so afraid of 'em? You get some slips in the mail, you copy the numbers over onto the forms, do a little math, and presto, you get some money back. They'll even double-check your numbers for you, and if you missed a deduction, they'll adjust for you, and you'll get more money back.

What's the big attraction about spending $30/year or whatever on the latest-and-greatest tax software, or paying some suit at H&R Block to do simple arithmetic for you?

Aren't we supposed to be among the smartest of society? Or at least among the most mathematically adept? Why the big fear? The satisfaction of filing your own taxes and doing it all on paper is pretty rewarding, I must say.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[sjbe]

Geez, people, do all of you guys file as your own business? Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada.

Don't know how they do it in Canada but here in the US doing taxes by hand sucks. At least if you have an estate of any real complexity. (i.e. more than a salary and maybe a few stocks) The tax rules are byzantine and the forms make no sense to people with college educations. I have both engineering and business degrees. My wife is a physician. So it's not that we lack the brainpower or skills to figure it out. Despite that we find it *much* easier and faster to either use a piece of software or hire a CPA. It's just not worth the time and aggravation to do it by hand. Think of it as a cost benefit ratio.

If the US government ever simplified their tax code it would kill Turbotax as a product. It's sole use is to make doing taxes easier. Of course I won't be purchasing it this year anyway given last year's debacle...

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[CodeBuster]

We write software programs to perform tedious and repetitive calculations for us precisely because we are smart people and would rather spend our time on more intellectually stimulating pursuits like improving our Quake III Arena score.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[pmz]

What's the big attraction about spending $30/year or whatever on the latest-and-greatest tax software, or paying some suit at H&R Block to do simple arithmetic for you?

Perhaps, in the USA, it is the satisfaction of even having paid professionals and computer software getting stumped as to how to classify the sale of a used car that was purchased for a dollar from a family member who intended it as a gift. The US tax code is a terrible terrible mess.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[ejaw5]

Why are people so afraid of 'em? You get some slips in the mail, you copy the numbers over onto the forms, do a little math, and presto, you get some money back.

You're forgetting that this is America. More than half of the shops around here would shutdown if their calculators/computers stopped working (let's ignore the inventory control here). True story told by a (calculus II) professor of mine: he and his wife went to a movie theater and was about to pay for tickets when told by the clerk it's free today. Later, he goes and buys popcorn and drinks..they were given free also. He asks why the tickets and food were free today, the clerk says "our machines are down, so we can't charge any money."

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[JLSigman]

Umfortunately, it's not always that easy. For my best friend, who works one job, has no crazy deductions and no need to itemize, she just files over the phone.

This year I will get at least 5 W-2 forms (I was unemployed, worked for several temp agencies, then got hired at this law firm), then I will have mortgage and HLOC interest, several thousand dollars of medical bills, and some charitable donations to itemize. Then I'll have foreign tax credit to calculate because of my Scottish Power stocks. And then...

Besides, my Mom used to work for the IRS and swears by TurboTax, so why shouldn't I trust her? ;-)

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[Pointy_Hair]

Geez, people, do all of you guys file as your own business? Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada. Why are people so afraid of 'em? You get some slips in the mail, you copy the numbers over onto the forms, do a little math, and presto, you get some money back. They'll even double-check your numbers for you, and if you missed a deduction, they'll adjust for you, and you'll get more money back.

Everyone's beaten the drum about convoluted US tax codes. Personally, I don't care to waste an hour or two grinding thru a 1040 plus a couple schedules, then do it again for state taxes. I used the web version and had both fed and state returns complete and filed in about 15 minutes.

Immediate gratification would be the other reason not to use the pencil system. Tax software facilitates electronic filing. E-filing means I get my money returned from Uncle Slam a few weeks faster. The e-filing alone just about justifies the expense.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[mccrew]

Personal taxes are not that hard. At least, not up here in Canada.

Canada Tax Form 2003

1. How much money did you make in 2003? ___________________

2. Send it in.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[ant1832]

I'm with this guy...I don't get why all you slashdot users use a computer anyway. I can easily type out a document on my typewriter or send a letter to a friend using the postal service. This computer stuff is way overrated.

;)

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[wcdw]

Ugh! I would no more do my taxes with a pencil than I would write a check, or balance my checkbook. I have better things to do with my time than dig out last year's forms, copy numbers and do basic math, thanks.

This despite the fact that I am one who once regularly balanced the checkbook in my head, without a calculator, or need for a pencil and paper.

The (tax-deductible) $30 is well worth the time savings in copying and e-filing alone. Yes, taxes are simple -- I'll fully agree with that. They move from simple to trivial with a decent tax program - why not spend that time doing something interesting, instead?

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[MobiusKlein]

Why?
Because some of our taxes are HARD. (Well, not NP hard...)
It's not about saving $40 in income tax, it's about getting it right to stay out of the slammer.

Me - I had to worry about two state taxes, AMT reductions to tax credits, calculating how much to pre-pay quarterly, dividends, interest, mortgage, and so on.

rbb
(To me, this proves how the US income tax is bunk, as currently written - but that's a whole different topic.)

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[Reziac]

Well, my reason was that my taxes have become more complex and finding all the right forms was a PITA. Not to mention that I have degenerative handwriting disorder ;)

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator

[Des Herriott]

Your head will explode. And I mean literally, not figuratively. :P

US tax forms come coated with nitroglycerine and you're meant to chew on them?

Sorry, just trying to understand they make your head literally explode...

Q: can I run their current crap without C-Dilla?

[Performer Guy]

I used Turbo Tax last year, now I have C-Dilla on my HD. Everytime I scan for malware the only thing I leave is C-Dilla because I need it to run Turbo Tax to check last year's filing. My question is can I use my frikin legally purchased copy of Turbo Tax now without C-Dilla. I don't give a crap about an apology. They treated me like a pirate for buying their software. I want that shit off my HD and I want to use my licensed software to check that digital copy of turbo tax for the next several years.

Can I? Anyone?

P.S. If after a bit of research I find I can do my taxes with another piece of software I shall. You can support these assholes if you like, I'm going to find someone I can trust more with my important financial data (that trust is about access to my own data as well as privacy, privacy is NOT the only concern), that right now means anyone who makes decent tax software and isn't called Intuit.

Lesson?

[Schnapple]

Learned their lesson

What lesson would that be?

Don't put DRM that could screw over the systems of unsuspecting customers, your biggest market? (since every American has to pay taxes) Ok, fair enough. Some DRM goes too far.

But if the lesson is "don't use copy protection - embrace rampant piracy" then I have to disagree. We have a double edged sword here - digital mediums are easy to use and easy to abuse. I see copy protection as a reminder that you have to pay for each copy of something you use, unless the EULA says otherwise (and theirs will be amended, I see). I don't see it as a presumption of guilt. There were like 15 million TurboTax returns in 2001 - and 5.5 million copies of TurboTax sold.

And because I didn't want to have to unhose my Wife's PC I pointed her to TaxCut. She hated it. She cursed me for making her use it. Parts of it weren't even on the CD and wouldn't be available online for months when we did our taxes (January or so). When I told her of what TurboTax could do, she didn't care. She said it would be worth the risk. Fortunately most people don't think like her.

Just use the online version of TurboTax, I say.

Re:Lesson?

[L-Train8]

There were like 15 million TurboTax returns in 2001 - and 5.5 million copies of TurboTax sold.

This does not mean that there were 10 million pirated copies of TurboTax. This means that people did their own taxes and their mom's taxes and maybe their neighbor's taxes with the software they bought. I don't care what the EULA says, that is not piracy. You don't have to buy a new copy of Microsoft Office each time you write a letter.

It gets into another big argument, but the idea that companies can tell you how you are allowed to use their product after you legally purchase it is pretty flawed. The reason so many average people commit the crime of piracy so often is because the restrictions companies are trying to place on ridiculous. Why would someone think it would be illegal to do their mom's taxes with the software they bought? You don't have to buy another car if you let your friend drive it.

One of the advantages that using software has over using a CPA is that it can be used over again for the same price. Part of Intuit's problem was that what consumers saw as a big advantage in using their product, Intuit saw as a crime. In order to stop this percieved crime, Intuit took away one of the big selling points of their software.

I'm glad they eventually learned their lesson, but I'm with a lot of folks here on /. After being ripped off by Intuit once, why should I go back?

Re:Lesson?

[rbird76]

If DRM successfully stopped piracy it would be OK. Since it doesn't stop anything but casual piracy it's not so good. It becomes even less good when my fair use rights are taken without companies having to go through the technicality of buying members of Congress to get an amenable law passed. And I like it even less when companies choose overly onerous ways to enforce the rights. (I don't have to give book publishers a spare key to my house so that they can make sure I don't have books I haven't paid for.)

Ultimately, people don't like paying to be treated like criminals while getting software with less flexibility that costs them more while large scale pirates are selling the software. Going after the people who buy software to get the people who copy it (while avoiding those who do most of the copying) seems like collateral damage on a massive scale - only in this case, the damage to users is intentional, designed to get from them the money they aren't making from other sources. If you think this is a good idea, you are entitled to your opinion, but ultimately it seems to be behavior guaranteed to drive off your (paying) customers while encouraging people to buy from large scale copiers. Since this doesn't seem to be what they had in mind, the lesson that they need to learn is hurting your customers to get copiers is a flawed business model.

Re:Lesson?

[Zathrus]

I'm glad they eventually learned their lesson, but I'm with a lot of folks here on /. After being ripped off by Intuit once, why should I go back?

If Intuit had the only decent tax software out there then I (and probably many others) would go back. But Intuit did this at a time when they face rather stiff competition from TaxCut and other software. I found TaxCut just as easy to use as TurboTax, not to mention slightly cheaper. It also did my taxes right the first time -- my wife cross checked things by doing them online w/ TurboTax and we spent a couple days figuring out why they came up with different numbers.

Oh, and as it turns out, TurboTax did it wrong. And fixing it required you to start over from scratch.

Yeah, I think I'll be sticking with TaxCut for the forseeable future.

Re:Lesson?

[babbage]

There were like 15 million TurboTax returns in 2001 - and 5.5 million copies of TurboTax sold.

This does not mean that there were 10 million pirated copies of TurboTax. This means that people did their own taxes and their mom's taxes and maybe their neighbor's taxes with the software they bought. I don't care what the EULA says, that is not piracy. You don't have to buy a new copy of Microsoft Office each time you write a letter.

Just to give another example, my dad is a CPA, and has been using TurboTax to help prepare tax returns for his clients since the late 80s. His annual legal copy of the software is responsible for many tax returns every year, (dozens? I'm not sure, I don't dig through his files, but I know that he works for many families every year) and I'm sure he isn't the only accountant to be using one legally purchased copy of the tax software to prepare returns for all of their clients every year.

Re:Lesson?

[Saeger]

You don't have to buy another car if you let your friend drive it.

Indeed, but physical object manufacturers don't really have the technical ability to force a unique 1-to-1 relationship between product and person, so they resort to advertisings influence rather than DRM to reduce sharing and increase consumption.

Like that Doritos(?) commercial that promotes being selfish with the slogan: "Get your own bag!" It's not like they can tag a bag of doritos to one person and then release nasty-tasting chemicals when someone other than the owner puts their chipped hand inside... :)

--

Re:Huh?

[Thud457]

"Are their customers people or dollar bills?"

Confusion as to that matter is why they fucked up in the first place!

If Intuit is being honest...

[__aagmrb7289]

Shouldn't we reward that? I mean, has "TaxCut" promised not to do idiotic things like this? Is it impossible to forgive an organization that makes mistakes? Why do we seem to have double-standards on these things? Is it cynicism, or stupidity?

Re:If Intuit is being honest...

[bill_mcgonigle]

Shouldn't we reward that? I mean, has "TaxCut" promised not to do idiotic things like this? Is it impossible to forgive an organization that makes mistakes? Why do we seem to have double-standards on these things? Is it cynicism, or stupidity?

Intiut was deceitful and installed inappropriate software on peoples' computers without asking them. They assumed people would be copying their software and felt it was more important to protect their revenue stream than the integrity of their users' computers. What they did was treat their customers like criminals and shift their costs to the users.

Now, since it cost them $90M they're changing their minds. They're not changing their minds because they know what they did was wrong, they're doing to because they want more money. If TaxCut wasn't around they probably wouldn't be making this change.

"But how do we know that?," you ask. Well, we don't for certain, but we can understand their motivations and morals by looking at past behavior, and know that motivations and morals do not usually change so quickly. Now, if everyone associated with this debacle was thrown out, that would be different, but the apology is from the continuing product manager.

It's a shame - TaxCut is buggier than Turbo Tax, and I rather liked Turbo Tax, but sometimes you have to live with inconvieniences to support socially responsible businesses.

Re:If Intuit is being honest...

[__aagmrb7289]

You say we should look at past behavoir - I am. That's why I'm wondering if we shouldn't give Intuit a break. They have a history of making good choices, and being customer oriented. And firing people who make bad decisions? Well, damn, that's just silly. No one I know would have a good job, and I'm relatively sure that includes you. A pattern of bad decisions would require termination, sure, but this isn't a pattern - this is one event.

And damn me for get stuck in an advocate position (instead of the "think about it before judging" position I tried to start in) - you made two other false statements:

1) Intuit most certainly warned their customers that they were installing the protections they installed. I read the notice (that was one the box, in the license agreement, and in the setup), and I decided to install it on a trash box instead. Many people don't have that luxury, but hell, what can I say? The decision to do this was very bad, but it wasn't the crime of the century, and it sure ain't something that cannot be forgiven;

2) It cost them $90M? I don't think so. I've seen figures like this associated with their decision, but I also looked into how they compiled their figures, and they are almost as accurate as some of the damages I've seen levied against hackers. $90M is a ridiculous figure.

Re:If Intuit is being honest...

[bill_mcgonigle]

A pattern of bad decisions would require termination, sure, but this isn't a pattern - this is one event.

What I was trying to get at is that behaviours are emergent traits, stemming from deep-seated beliefs. Intuit decided it was OK for them to install software on customers' computers which would run forever, even though TurboTax would likely be used once or twice. That's not a scalable behavior. I don't recall the exact details, but c-dilla was writing its data to the MBR or somewhere else it shouldn't have ever though of touching. Again, not a scalable behavior - if everybody does this, the whole ecosystem goes to hell.

1) Intuit most certainly warned their customers that they were installing the protections they installed. I read the notice (that was one the box, in the license agreement, and in the setup), and I decided to install it on a trash box instead.

Well, maybe you're right, I never read it myself - only what I heard in the news. Still, have you ever tried returning a software package that's opened? As others have said, "is it worth it for a $30 software package?"

The decision to do this was very bad, but it wasn't the crime of the century, and it sure ain't something that cannot be forgiven;

Of course, but it's a matter of broken trust. Trust is earned; when it's broken it has to be earned again. I'm hoping they do earn my trust again, but they don't get it automatically.

2) It cost them $90M? I don't think so. ... $90M is a ridiculous figure.

Did you RTFA? That's not my figure.

Anyone have the *actual* apology?

[gosand]

OK, so they have said they are going to publish an official apology letter. I didn't see it on their website, or on the Wall Street Journal's or USA Today's websites.

Until I hear what they have to say about it, saying you are going to apologize doesn't count. I am guessing that the only reason they are sorry is because people got pissed and went to a different product. i.e. they aren't sorry for what they did, and don't recognize why it was wrong. Of course they'll issue an apology to try and get business back, but have they fixed the *real* issue? Probably not. Unless they admit that what they did was wrong, and show they understand why, then all they are doing is kissing ass because tax season is coming up.

Re:Anyone have the *actual* apology?

[hburch]

Search on http://www.intuit.com for "apology letter" turns up nothing about Turbo Tax.

Search on http://turbotaxsupport.com for "apology" turns up nothing about Turbo Tax (uses same search engine, so not a big surprise.

You can find a link to a FAQ entry that is a mere two clicks away from universal keys, although no patch to remove the copy inhibitions. It does not sound paticularly penitent to me:

In response to customer feedback, we have removed the technology from TurboTax 2003 products. In addition, Intuit is changing its policy and updating the TurboTax software license agreement, enabling customers to use TurboTax software to install, prepare, file and print multiple returns for themselves and their family from multiple computers.

Can I install TurboTax for 2003 on multiple computers?

Yes. TurboTax for tax year 2003 can be used on multiple computers to prepare, print and file multiple returns for you and your family.

I still need to install my tax year 2002 product on multiple computers.

We've made it possible for customers to install and use their current 2002 version of TurboTax software on multiple computers. The anti-piracy technology is still included in the current software but the restrictions are not being enforced.

You are not the only one.

[SuperKendall]

Hey stupid posters, you don't have to have bought a DivX player to be angry at Circuit City for having tried to push the format. I also have not shopped there, and never will again - sometimes a company deserves no forgivness, only bankruptcy. If you give them money, what's to say they wil not try the same trick later on?

Similarily for Turbo Tax I am not going to buy Intuit software for quite a while, although my own stance is a little softer there. If Intuit folds, it could mean bad things for the industry. I think a few years of lean sales might help show quite a few people that product activation is a poor idea.

I think an "apology" is not enough. They need to seek atonemnet, though what form that might take I am not sure.

Re:You are not the only one.

[phriedom]

"If Intuit folds, it could mean bad things for the industry."

When Divx died, DVDs went up in price.

Re:You are not the only one.

[Ldir]

Me too. I thought Circuit City's involvement with DivX showed total contempt for their customers. That isn't acceptable to me. I haven't shopped there since.

Timeline

[rruvin]

> Don't think I would like to trust software version 0.0.0.4 with my finances, anyway

Especially keeping in mind their page says they hope to release 1.0.0 by the end of the year 2000.

What's with the candle trucks?

[johannesg]

I must have missed it when that meme was introduced here on /. Would some kind person care to explain?

Re:What's with the candle trucks?

[Carl_Cne]

see Google Bug [slashdot.org]

Re:What's with the candle trucks?

[jargoone]

Here ya go:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/06/133123 9

English Please

[Flave]

Can someone please translate the original posting into English?

Thank you.

Re:Too bad Microsoft won't join them

[gr8_phk]

"have you ever tried convincing a windows user to switch to another OS.....it doesn't happen"

I've found telling people just about anything does not work. You have to show them. Show them something they want. Showing them how Linux does all the same crap their "windows" does along with being "non-microsoft" will not get them to switch. There must be a more tangible benefit, or a compelling reason to leave behind what they use now.

Yes I'm off topic this time.

Too late, Intuit, I've already switched.

[dpbsmith]

I used TurboTax, and its predecessors, all the way back to 1985. That was three or four companies ago. It was always very satisfactory, and there seemed to be no reason to change, so I didn't change.

All they had to do to keep me as a customer forever was to not screw up.

Well, last year they screwed up. So I switched.

And you know what? As you'd expect in a highly competitive environment... the differences between TurboTax and TaxCut hardly amount to a hill of beans. In fact the general design of the programs is pretty similar and I barely had to consult the online help. On balance, EXCEPT for the product activation nonsense, the two products are roughly on a par.

If there had been any doubt in my mind, a few bad experiences with Intuit's so-called customer support resolved them. (I don't know how H&R Block's compares... because I didn't need to use it).

I _did_ need to re-enter a lot of my basic information from last year.

Switch back? Why should I go to the effort? I am now a TaxCut customer. And there's no reason at all H&R Block shouldn't be able to keep me for life.

All they need to do is not screw up.

The value of a GOOD CPA/Intuits annoying strategie

[Rathian]

A GOOD CPA, knows the tax system better than any program can and have insights and experience with the various writeoffs and such to maximize your returns. You'll DEFINITELY pay more (~10x more), but quite often they pay for themselves in the size of the return you get. Don't go with your vanilla HR Block - seek out recommendations and go with independents who know the game and how to play it without breaking the rules.

As a long term Intuit/Quicken customer, I was a bit turned off by that move. Now that I work for a bank I've seen other darker sides to Quicken as well.

MS Money from what I have seen, will allow you to reconcile your accounts against a downloaded list. Quicken/Intuit on the other hand forces banks to be on their system to give the customer the ability to do that. This strategy effectively ties to strong-arm banks to use sign contracts with them Intuit. For smaller banks, this can be problematic.

I am also running Quicken '02 - I've been using Quicken now for 10 years and my father has been using it since Quicken for DOS! Quicken is becoming more and more a stupid billboard in which to advertise other services from Intuit. Their marketing is becoming more intrusive and I for one dislike that.

Re:What's the big deal?

[ddillman]

It isn't so much *what* they did (although to some extent, it is), but more *how* they did it. Completely beneath the radar, no notification. Changes made to your hard drive without informing you. Messed up a lot of users with something other than just Windows loaded. Plus, they claim it's to protect their IP, but it's been repeatedly shown that DRM doesn't work for that purpose. Pirates *will* break DRM.

I never noticed.

[supabeast!]

Software installation is SO twentieth century. I use Turbo Tax Online- no more installation issues, no more worries about keeping everything installed and updated whenever I have to rebuild a machine from scratch, and somebody else handles my backups with a system that's probably a lot more reliable than my habit of burning important stuff to a CD and stuffing it in a drawer. On top of that, I don't have OS issues, because the web interface worked just fine across Linux, Mac OS, and Windows. Good luck getting prepacked software like that.

Sure some people might bitch about "privacy" concerns, but how private are my taxes? If I do an online transfer it goes through a third party, usually the software manufacturer; if I do it through the mail there are plenty of chances to steal it along the way, and god only knows how many dishonest people may be working in the IRS mailroom.

Web services ROCK. It's time consumers caught on!

I say crush them

[GoofyBoy]

If you don't like something they did, destroy them on a biblical scale that no manager in any company will even think about suggesting something like this again.

You want people to say "That tax software company did something like that, people hated it, stopped buying their product and they went from first in the industry to bankrupcy. Lets just trust our customers."

TaxCut here, to stay

[rjamestaylor]

I don't know whether it was TaxCut's slowness to consider draconian licensing protections or Intuit's ferral penchant for disdaining their customers (ever try to contact Quicken for support of their not-cheap proprietary software? Good freaking luck; the only 'free' method is online chat and its not available Thursday or Friday, which makes me think the service is run out of Malaysia). Whatever the reason, they pissed off their base and deserve what they get.

TaxCut worked beautifully for me ...hold on, there's a knock at the door...federal agents!!! Aaahhhh!!!

Something's wrong with this picture!

[Thud457]

Why the fuck is our personal income tax code so goddamned complicated that it requires joe sixpack to hire a voodoo tax preparer and buy some buggy, DRM-crippled computer program?!!!

We should just abolish income tax completely, and switch completely over to a scheme of deficit spending tied with government manipulation of interest rates.

Dumb & Dumber

[melted]

Lloyd Christmas: "TurboLax. One teaspoon for fast effective relief. (Pours the entire bottle into Harry's punch)."

Divx vs. DVD

[phriedom]

I did, and I understand the issues perfectly.

It still plays DVDs just fine, and wouldn't have made your "investment" worthless if it had lived. On the contrary, I think if Divx had lived it would not have killed DVDs, but new release DVDs would still be $13 instead of $20. There is no reason why the two formats couldn't have coexisted and competed.

As for the DRM issues, do you think your privacy is any more secure with Blockbuster or your cable company? Do you ever use a credit card?

I understand why for certain special movies people want to "own" a DVD of it, but I don't think Divx ever threatened that. Killing Divx was in Warner Bros. best interest, not yours, and its death is just as much a money grab by the studios as you claim divx was a money grab by CC.

Re:Divx vs. DVD

[Slurms]

It still plays DVDs just fine, and wouldn't have made your "investment" worthless if it had lived. On the contrary, I think if Divx had lived it would not have killed DVDs, but new release DVDs would still be $13 instead of $20. There is no reason why the two formats couldn't have coexisted and competed.

If Divx had succeeded, then new films would have been released as Divx's at a price point below the the going rate for an unrestricted DVD. The price would have doubled or tripled for unrestricted DVDs until there was no more demand for them.
Then there would have been no option for any formats to 'coexist'.

Macromedia uses it now

[One Louder]

Apparently, the new Macromedia MX 2004 suite uses SafeCast/C-Dilla.

As I recall:

[Gannoc]

They originally announced that the reason that they wouldn't put the malware in the next release is because their studies showed that it didn't reduce piracy. You can be sure that if it had worked, they wouldn't be sending out this apology today.

They listen to revenue, not customers

[sacrilicious]

They're showing that companies can actually listen to their customers. Support them and maybe other companies will take notice.

They do not listen to customers, they listen to revenue. They put in DRM believing it would increase their revenue; as the article says, "[Intuit] predicted that revenue would increase, since customers who had previously purchased only one TurboTax program would have to buy a separate copy for each computer in the house". No part of that plan serves the customer. Similarly, the only reason they changed it is because they lost a ton of money.

It just so happened in this case that customers were able to weild enough power to hurt their revenues. Thinking that they "listened to customers" is to miss the fact that they would have continued to screw customers as long as they could have squeezed more revenue out of them by doing so. That they changed course here is not to their credit in any sense other than that they're not pathologically oblivious to the failure of their plan to screw customers.

Re:They listen to revenue, not customers

[yog]

I agree with your idealism but actually, it was not really the average customer that reacted so much as the press that blew up the story and created a lot of the outrage. Lots of software has DRM built in to it. In this case, the mainstream press trumpeted the matter and forced it into Joe Taxpayer's dim consciousness just enough that he felt "outrage" even though he might not quite understand the issues the way a computer-literate /. reader would.

I don't think Intuit is any better or worse than any other company. For example, I would prefer to purchase their products than, say, Microsoft Money, because I want to encourage competition. Having said that, I'd be most likely to go with the product that runs under Crossover on my Linux system, and that happened to be Taxcut this past year. Don't know if Turbotax works as well but I can't imagine any malware aimed at Windows users would affect my Linux system too much.

Re:They listen to revenue, not customers

[WNight]

It's not as much that Joe Consumer is stupid, it's that Slashdot isn't popular with the non-tech crowd. How is anyone going to hear about the DRM in Intuit's product, and the fact that the other companies are better in this area, unless a news site carries a story from someone who has already been burned by it?

It takes a mainstream media carrying a "Product X" screws you before it reaches most people. Once it does, or course they'll consider switching. Nobody likes restrictions like using software only on one computer, or annoying dongles that you need to swap from machine to machine.

The news made a big deal of it, but it was the customers who didn't buy the product. As another poster said, not because they give a rat's ass about the customer, but because they like their cushy executive bonuses. I see no need to help the company in the future. Everyone else might be just as bad, but we caught these ones actively trying to sell us out, why on Earth would we want to give them another chance? They're not sorry for bothering people, they're sorry it didn't raise profits.

Avoid Best Buy at all costs

[OMEGA Power]

Best Buy is one of the worst stores I have ever dealt with (far worse than Circuit City in the customer service department) For example, When my hard drive MP3 player (Creative Nomad Jukebox 3) broke about one year into the 3 year service/replacment plan (which I had paid an extra $30-$50, don't remember the exact number, for) it took visits to 4 stores (two over an hour from my home) and encounters with personal ranging from incompetent and untruthful (mostly floor staff) all the way to downright hostile and threating (store managers) to get them to honor the service plan and in the end I still had to pay $100 cash to "upgrade" to a better player (iPod), even though I just wanted my existing unit fixed or replaced, because all the stores claimed they did not have and couldn't order a new nomad or anything they considered a "comparible replacment". Not to mention the fact that the manager at the store that sold me the new iPod refused to transfer the reminder of the service plan to the new unit (even though the plan document clearly said that would happen) and threatened to sue me for slander when I said I intended complan to Best Buy corprate and the BBB. This happened months ago and I refuse to set foot in a Best Buy to this day.

In short Best Buy Sucks Ass, Don't Shop There Ever!!

And on the odd chance you care here are Some more stories of Best Buy mistreating customers and employees

Re:Avoid Best Buy at all costs

[Sxooter]

The most important lesson from all this is to NEVER buy a service plan. They're a ripoff.

Missed the point?

[bug-eyed monster]

Sure, we can do pretty much all accounting, filing, and other clerical work on paper. We can also write letters instead of emailing and phoning, whee. The point is, technology is here to make our lives easier, and I find it much more rewarding to use computer/internet technology to turn a stressful task like tax-filing into a pleasant one.

Last year, I started filing my taxes on paper, calculating and recalculating and wondering if I've missed something, then I went to ufile.ca, took me half an hour to do everything and I was done with little stress. Some of the best dollars I've spent.

Why bother?

[doomdog]

Get an accountant. Let them do your taxes. Less work, less aggravation -- and a much better chance of getting it done right the first time...

I say don't support them

[BuddhaDude]

They added the DRM to their product because they got greedy, pure and simple. It wasn't a way to improve their product or their service, it was a way to improve their bottom line.

Now that their bottom line has been affected, they're apologizing. I don't consider that "listening to their customers", I consider it "panic".

They thought they could get away with screwing their customer base; they were wrong. Don't reward them for backtracking over something they never should have done in the first place.

Do NOT support Intuit because of this move

[BlackjackGuy]

If you support Intuit by purchasing TurboTax now, it will prove to other companies that it is okay to experiment with DRM technologies. Even though Intuit failed with it, they won't really care if things return back to normal in terms of sales and profits. Intuit will just shrug it off as a failed experiment, with no repercussions. No damages.

However, if Intuit is PERMANENTLY hurt as a result of this DRM crap, and their competitors (HR & Block's TaxCut, etc) who do NOT push DRM are thriving and permanently pick up marketshare from Intuit, then that's a concrete example as to why no company should even attempt to use DRM in any products.

Don't let Intuit get away with this. It will give other companies an excuse to try DRM, rather than stay away from it all together. Don't go back to TurboTax. Use TaxCut or one of the many alternatives.

Yes, that one.

[oneiros27]

The same one that has a 30 day return policy, and so,
when I attempted to return a christmas gift that someone had given me, they wouldn't take it back, as I had the receipt, which showed it was bought in November, so I would've had 2 days from Christmas to have returned it within the 30 days.

It was still in the wrapper, still had the 'Best Buy' price tag on it, I had the receipt, and I was just trying to get store credit. I think what pissed me off more was that I had to drive about 25 miles to the nearest Best Buy (Annapolis, MD) in the first place, and then stood in line for a good 45 minutes, and they just blew me off.

I haven't purchased anything from Best Buy since.

Re:Yes, that one.

[Reziac]

I had a similar experience involving Fry's, a refurbed laser printer that turned out to not even HAVE all its innards, and the return window dude blowing me off THE VERY NEXT DAY, receipt, printer, and all. After stating ...loudly enough that everyone in the checkout lines could hear me... that I'd been sold a printer without all its body parts, suddenly I found myself at the head of the returns line, with a Most Helpful Manager who got me a replacement, albeit with another long wait.

If I'd been willing to take "Too Bad" for an answer, I'd have been out $300.

BTW, the printer is now 7 years old and still in use.

Re:Yes, that one.

[rhuntley12]

I bought a PS2 at walmart and took it home, the PS2 looked like someone modded it and broke it, then swapped boxes at walmart. Luckily when I took it back 20 minutes after purchase the guys remembered me and exchanged it. I was pretty freaked, when the return people wouldn't let me return it until they got the clerk who remembered me.

Re:Yes, that one.

[Reziac]

The Walmart here has a posted policy of 10 days to return electronic anything, but I talked to the store manager, and he said in fact they allow NO returns policy for electronic stuff, even if it's DOA. Which is why I don't buy any computer stuff there even tho they have good prices on some name-brand peripherals.

I don't think the corp office would be too happy with the "unstated" policy, tho, and in my observation, neither would a small claims court.

An idea for product activation

[rongage]

You know, if you want a fair and decent way to do product activation, maybe the idea of tying the product to a single computer is taking the wrong approach...

How about using some sort of portable id storage device (like a USB keydrive or a Dallas Semiconductor Crypto I-Button) to store the activation. No more concerns about installing the software on hundreds of computers. Just tie the id storage device to the software somehow, and take the id device where-ever you need to run the software from.

How hard is that?

Re:An idea for product activation

[TheLoneDanger]

How about using some sort of portable id storage device (like a USB keydrive or a Dallas Semiconductor Crypto I-Button) to store the activation. No more concerns about installing the software on hundreds of computers. Just tie the id storage device to the software somehow, and take the id device where-ever you need to run the software from.

You just carry it around in your pocket, huh?

So, are you glad to see me or are you just here to do my taxes?

(Which would be insulting since I imagine the id device would be real small...)

I used to work for Intuit.... here are my thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

First know that I am completely against their TOS with the software, as well as their recent use of the bootsector of the HD to keep a product registered. But, there are a few things I think we should all keep in mind.

I did work tech/sales support for Turbotax last year, and eventually went up the branch to be the "mentor" or "floor supervisor", so I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass, it is straight from the top. The days of panic and both customer and agents crying are still vidily in my head.

1. Intuit was already losing quite literally more than a few hundred thousand dollars from previous TurboTax releases. Since very, very minor security had been put in place to ensure software protection, it was passed around like candy. The statistcs proved that for every copy we gave out, it was the same copy that at least 15 other people had already used. 15 being the smallest number I can think of from that statistic report. The software was pirated beyond belief and Intuit wanted to implement a security policy NOW.

2. Intuit needed a security policy, obviously, so they told the coders to think of something and fast. So they did. No one ever expected for the process to be so incredibly cumbersome or restricting. Administration loved it though, (mostly tax advisors than computer savvy) and it was put on the market with the security features implmented. The point remains, that even if this security feature is downright disgusting, something had to be done.

3. After Intuit found out how horribly wrong the activation was, it was a little bit too late. A lot was done to compensate the customers calling in, free states, free this, no questions asked refunds, etc. Internally, Intuit was working it's ass off to reconcile for the unruley security measure it had taken. The point remains, that even though few people saw it externally, internally (especially for people calling into Intuit) we were working our asses off to apologize and make up for it.

4. Too much damage, too late, on both our side and the customer's side. The reason Intuit began to stop offering refunds and free states so quickly to rectify the situation is because we had a constant flow of customers that would not listen, but would have their lawyer on the other line. We were fully aware that the TOS was wrong, the boot sector usage was wrong, but the coders always convienced the administration that it was vital to the lifestream of the company, despite what the actual workers on the floor would say.
Screamed at, threatened (yes we had plenty of threats over the phone which led to much more than a simple hang up on our side), and such other garbage was not called for, especially for the people on the phones trying hard to make it better.

I don't know, I guess I am just ranting.

But I think it needs to be known that Intuit was well aware of the damage, hated what they had released into the wild, and did everything they could to stop it and at times, even offer out free items to get past the security features.

Sure, sure... we fucked up. But sending a team of laywers week after week is not going to help the situation... in fact.... the eventual overflow of angry screaming customers is enough to drive people to the limits. The foul laungage(spelling off, I know, im tired) and constant ordering of the agents trying to help the customers ruined the confidence and patience that administration had. I know... I quit. The community never gave Intuit the chance to repair what their coders had created.... in short.. a monster.

Re:Fine for those of you with no assets or income

[HTMLSpinnr]

I've got all of the above, and web still worked. Didn't have a place for my Hybrid Car deduction, however, so I'll have to retro-ammend or something. Hopefully that changed this year.

Dishonest

[Roark Meets Dent]

Why did they wait until NOW to apologize? So that the apology would be fresh in people's minds as they go out to purchase a new tax-prep application? Hmmm, I think their timing is self-serving and the apology a lot of baloney. If they meant it they could have issued this many months ago.

Re:Using TaxCut :"Slamming" the poor & U.S Tre

[SnakeStu]

What does this have to do with TaxCut (as you mention in your subject), or tax preparation software in general (other than that using software would prevent people from paying the "typically $60 to $300" commercial preparer fee)? And are we supposed to feel sorry that people have to pay for their impatience and/or willful ignorance (aka, foolishness)?

What the consumer receives in hand is the refund minus the loan fee, the tax preparation fee, and the electronic filing fee.

So clearly they understand that they're paying for the convenience of having (some of) their money right away. A fool and his money are soon parted -- is it necessary to hold every fool's hand to protect his wallet?

As someone who's always used a CPA...

[Rob Simpson]

...even if it's fairly simple, this might still be a good idea. Sure, I could get a nice tax program for about half what I pay to get my taxes done, but then I'd have to work, too. (Shudder)

Re:As someone who's always used a CPA...

[JayBlalock]

The problem with all Tax software is that they are marketed primarily to those people LEAST competent to use them. People with some actual intelligence can do them on their own - doing your own 1040 is pretty simple, you just need a calculator. Or past a level of complexity, they recognize the need for a CPA. (both to make sure it's done correctly, and to get the best tax breaks)

Conversely, you get someone who's ignorant of tax law and *realizes* their ignorance, and they just scurry off to the CPA regardless of their return. (and, I note, there's no shame in this - tax law is *insane*)

And then, in the middle, are those who purchase TaxCut\TurboTax. They either A)think they know more than they do, or B)believe it's some sort of magic number-sorting program that will instantly produce a tax return for them with no amount of work on their part. I had some customers who legitimately believed they didn't even have to worry about the prompts, that the program would somehow magically "know" what was income, what was royalties, etc etc. (and, of course, if the luser manages to create for themselves a Schedule-C when all they did was have a garage sale, that's the program's fault, even though the prompts and explanations are written at about a middle-school level)

And don't even get me STARTED on those boneheads that thought they could use a $15 piece of software to cheat on their taxes like a $1500 CPA. "But I did this LAST year!" "Which means you got lucky and weren't audited, since it was illegal last year too." (I even had one guy *demand* I help him hide a home business under "Miscellaneous Income" because if a CPA can do it, TaxCut MUST do it for him. He got hung up on.)

I will say, if you know something about taxes to begin with, TaxCut IS a pretty good program. It had a few bugs in the calculations, but most were the staggeringly complex sort one or two people MIGHT stumble across through dumb luck. (and one REALLY idiotic bug involving proxy servers blocking e-filing, but that's another story) The problem is it's marketed (and priced) specifically towards those who LEAST need to be using it. So go on use it if you have a simple return, or if you have a decent understanding of home taxes and just need a hand with the math and specific forms. Otherwise, just get a CPA. It's safer.

Re:TurboTax vs. TaxCut - beware...

[QuackQuack]

and no, I did not take the time to pinpoint exactly how this happened

That was your first mistake. You shouldn't blindly use these Tax tools and expect that you are getting the right results. You need to double check the results yourself. If you don't know what to look for, then you probably should be using a professional rather than software.

A few years ago, when I was doing taxes by hand, my wife insisted that we hand it over to a family member who she thought was a tax expert. Turns out he was just inputing everything into TurboTax. When I got the return back from him, it was completly wrong. I had to redo it by hand at the last minute. It wasn't that TurboTax did the taxes wrong, it was that he didn't answer the questions correctly.

Re:I used to work for Intuit.... here are my thoug

[QuackQuack]

I always thought the smart model would be to charge per tax return. That way users could still use the software wherever they wanted, and print wherever they wanted, (the main complaints), but they wouldn't be able to do everyone in the family for the same $39.95 or give it away to friends, unless they paid for another license to do another return.

I guess the downside to this would be that it would have to be keyed on SSN, and that would make many people nervous.

Under the model Intuit did use, users could still do many tax returns from one copy as long as it was done on the same computer. Put for many people, the computer that they wanted to work from was not necessarily the one they wanted to print from.

On what planet?

[SuperKendall]

Here on Earth we can get a lot of DVD's for about $10 now. The trend has been downward pricing, and a lot more features to boot!!! Unless you are talking about the demise of 800.com's amazing deals, but that was hardly due to DivX...

DVD's nowadays are about the best bargain going. Certainly better than theaters, a movie has to be damn good now to convince me to head to a theater instead of enjoying it more at home.

Why not do it by hand?

[bluGill]

I do my taxes by hand. It isn't hard. It is a pain, you have to get a lot of forms, and enter a lot of numbers into your calculator (twice!). However only yourself by hand do you really know how it works. I know a lot of people who think they are deducting their tools and uniforms, but I don't even need to see their forms to know that while they can deduct them, they are not because standard deductions or limits on when you can deduct make it either not worth it, or they are inelligable to do so. I also know (well I've forgotten now, but I knew then) exactly how much tax I paid last year. Not how much I got back, but how much I paid.

If you are the typical apatheic person just hire someone to do your taxes. If you have a buieness they might be complex enough that you don't have time to do them. Otherwise, the typical slashdotter should be intelligent enough to do them by hand, and will learn a lot by doing so.

P.S. remember that the hard part is getting all the paperwork togather, but it doesn't matter if you pay someone, do it yourself, or enter it into a computer, you need all that paperwork first. Forget about one 1099 form and your taxes will be wrong no matter who does them.

Re:I used to work for Intuit.... here are my thoug

[chefmonkey]

Is Steve Bennett still Intuit's President and CEO? The same Steve Bennett who said, "Now, for a small but very vocal group of people, product activation is a crusade. But for the vast majority of our customers, it's a non-issue. And for Intuit it's a big opportunity," and then continued, "One of the things I think is important here for all investors to understand is that despite all the nervousness they hopefully see what we see, that it's not having much if any impact on our business. There's a lot of people out there that have agendas that are different than just pure consumer agendas. I think one of these things that we're looking at hard is who are some of these people that are saying these things about product activation and it's not all just straight consumer feedback, so there are some good consumer feedback and there are some other people who have other agendas on these boards. So I think it's important that for investors to see through some of this and what's really going on."

I'd throw that heavily in the "Intuit really doesn't care what customers think about this issue" camp. It was a smug, unrepenatant, and ignorant stance for the company to take. It took nearly a year for them to finally eat Bennett's words and apologize. And they don't even have the decency to send me a letter doing it, either, supposedly out of fear that I might not open it.

The statistcs proved that for every copy we gave out, it was the same copy that at least 15 other people had already used.

For this matter, I'll take Intuit's president's word over yours: "Last year, we got paid for only about a third of the... federal returns prepared and filed on TurboTax desktop products." Three is much smaller than fifteen, and much more beleivable.

(All quotes from this article)

Their customer service is no better

[Tamor]

Sadly I've had nothing but trouble with dealing with Intuit. I use their Quicken software and a couple of years ago found a bug that was double-counting the items in my budgets (ouch!). I checked their (UK) site, no contact email for support. Just a premium rate telephone number for support and a free number for sales.

Thinking it was ludicrous to pay them money to report a bug in their own software I called the sales number and asked them very nicely if they would pass on the details or put me through to someone who could deal with it. Oh no. Did not compute. I had to call the support number if I was having trouble. Sorry, but I don't pay companies to report bugs in their software.

Re:Not just a bit, the whole freaking sector 33

[cmiller173]

I didn't just flip a bit, it put the DRM software in sector 33 of the boot record. If you tried to uninstall the DRM software that was also installed as normal software it reinstalled itself the next time you boot. Some dual booters reported that installing turbotax broke dual booting, presumably whatever bootloader they used for dual booting stored info in sector 33. I used a sector editor to examine sec 33 before and after. Virtually the entire sector was used.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator Electronic Submissi

[Nom du Keyboard]

I can't wait to see your pencil electronically submit your form after it has computed it.

For some states that is becomming a requirement.

turbo tax only partially encrypts data files

[peter303]

Try a UNIX utility like "strings" on your TT tax return and you'll see info you wish others couldnt see like your SS number. This means that any spy-ware could peruse your TT files on disk and steal your identity. Spy-ware is increasingly sneaking onto my disk through IE holes and spoof ads.

Product Actvation violates Privacy

[Nom du Keyboard]

At no time does the SafeCast software or Intuit communicate personally identifiable user information, Intuit and Macrovision representatives said.

That's a lie, as the DMCA allows and the RIAA has proved. In order to get activation code back over the internet you have just given them, at minimum: your serial number, any registration information you filled in on the registration form, and the time of your transaction. You are just a court clerk away from a subpoena to reveal all the information your ISP has on you.

Dear Court Clerk:
As copyright holders of Intuit products and Turbo-Tax in particular, please sign this subpoena under the provisions of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to require [fill in ISP] to turn over all information regarding the user of [fill in IP address] at [fill in time] whom we believe may have somehow violated our copyright.

Oh, and you think your 800 number call is anonymous? The person paying the bills (i.e. Intuit) gets a log of every number that called their 800 line. Blocking Caller ID doesn't stop this. How often do you register software from the payphone down the road?

It's the very same thing for Microsoft Windows Update. We don't send any personally identifiable information: Except the serial number of your Windows (easily matched to information you provided when you registered the product) and the serial numbers of other products you have installed (easily checked to see if their original registration matches your current one), along with the time and your IP address. Yes there are steps you can take to avoid this, but get real! 99%+ of the population isn't prepared to do so.

The only reason you have any privacy here is because Intuit hasn't bothered to look yet. And that can change tomorrow.

Re:I used to work for Intuit... and here is Dilbet

[Nom du Keyboard]

We were fully aware that the TOS was wrong, the boot sector usage was wrong, but the coders always convienced the administration that it was vital to the lifestream of the company, despite what the actual workers on the floor would say.

While I like what you had to say, and you seemed to be speaking from an informed position, the result comes out sounding like a Dilbert strip. The coders did it!

Re:Lesson? Mom's taxes

[jkj5301]

There's another side of this coin. I used TurboTax in years past and was happy with it. I recommended it to my mother, sister, mother-in-law, and other friends. I didn't give them a copy to use, I told them to buy a copy, and that the time saved, and possibly new-found deductions would be well worth the relatively low cost. Then last year, after the activation experience, and finding out that I had to wait for a rebate for the State program, and finding that some of the helpful tax advice formerly included with the program was replaced with advertising for third party services... I told everyone I knew who was considering tax software NOT to get TurboTax. They lost not one customer, but several.

TaxCut

[DukeLinux]

I moved from TurboTax to TaxCut last when all this B.S. broke out. I have to use my wife's computer since they don't make a standards-compliant version. Anyway, I thought it was a perfectly good program and I was quite satisfied with it. I will be buying it again for tax year 2003.

Apology, what apology?

[Rick the Red]

They know how to reach me (thanks to their registration process), but so far I have not seen any apology.

Even so, if they were to personally telephone to say how sorry they are, I'd tell them to kiss my ass. I'll do my taxes with paper and pencil before I'll trust any of their software again.

Redhat

[Baron_Yam]

I'll burn some karma myself; This post is being done from my brand spankin' new RH9 box. A real bitch for a Wintechie to install a DLINK WLAN driver, considering there are a few projects out there, but none worked as documented. Of course, I learned a few things, so it isn't all bad.

Re:Amen brother!

[Mysteray]

I'm a big believer in CPA's. I once went down to the post office at 9 PM on April 15. There were free accountants volunteering there to help people like me. To make a long story short, my taxes got done that year for free, and they even re-filed for me things that I had filed sub-optimally in two preceding years. Instead of my calculations that had me paying a few hundred dollars, I left with refunds totalling over $1000.
Every year I pay maybye $75 for a professional to file my simple return. It takes her maybe 20 minutes, whereas I would waste most of a weekend day, and still not be confident in taking some deductions to which I am entitled.

Re:Q: can I run their current crap without C-Dilla

[Reziac]

[goes googling]

http://board.protecus.de/showtopic.php?threadid= 58 2&post_start=15

I can't make out the German, but it looks like someone posted a regkey to tinker with.

Re:Q: can I run their current crap without C-Dilla

[asscroft]

dude, intuit dropped the cdilla version. You can get a free clean clear non drm'ed version of the program by calling and asking. I even think they pay to send it to you.

Not only that, but despite it being called cdilla, it's not the same cdilla as the infamous cdilla. it's a whole new different version.

It's still drm and still isn't loved, but it isn't the spyware version.

They've Lost My Business

[Robotech_Master]

They've lost my business with that whole copy-protection thing.

I'm never going to pirate Turbotax again. :)

its ok

[_avs_007]

you should try shopping at fry's electronics. Then you get to spend hours finding a box that doesn't have the previously returned sticker on it, wait hours in line to purchase, wait a few more hours while they personally call your bank to verify funds from your check, wait some more to have the door nazis look at all your stuff, spend another hour driving home, then discover the box did not contain what you thought it would, then spend time driving all the way back. Then wait some more in the line to return. Spend time arguing that you did not switch the item. Wait some more, to speak to the PIC (person in charge), yell some more. Then finally get a refund coupon, then wait in line again to redeem your refund. Look here

A while back I was looking for a wireless microphone, because I was going to MC a friend's wedding. I was disgusted when I saw a bunch of boxes at fry's with a sticker saying, "microphone missing", yet the price was not marked down very much. What?! Charging you practically full price for an empty box?

This is a good step for Intuit

[Brett Glass]

As the person who broke the full story on the TurboTax DRM, I'm glad to see that the company has reconsidered. It's a good step, and they may well get many of their old customers back. Some, however -- especially the ones whose multiple boot or RAID systems were disabled by C-Dilla -- are probably lost for good.

Hopefully, the company will also reconsider some of its other policies. Yes, their software does attempt to foist an installation of Internet Exploder on users, even though many of them have wisely disabled or removed it to avoid security problems. This is inappropriate and should be stopped.

Also, the company should reconsider its policy of demanding high fees to "update the tax tables" in QuickBooks.

Clearly, the tax tables aren't the real issue here. Intuit wants to collect the equivalent of "rent" on its software, which is absurd. (The double entry bookkeeping system hasn't changed in a couple of hundred years now, so there simply shouldn't be a need to buy accounting software for a business more than once.) Let the company charge more if it must; it should, however, not attempt to cripple businesses' accounting systems if they refuse to pay yearly ransom. None of the several businesses I've started have ever used QuickBooks because of this misfeature, and none will ever do so until they stop.

Of course, my choice alone won't persuade the company to play fair. But if enough people go elsewhere, perhaps it will listen.

Re:Q: can I run their current crap without C-Dilla

[Performer Guy]

I know it's not spyware, although it's not true to say it's a whole new version.

I have C-Dilla installed and musk keep it, how do I know some OTHER piece of software hasn't enabled the spyware components, I cannot tell them apart so I am defenceless against this form of privacy invasion thanks to Intuit. I run two types of privacy protection software, but they are ineffective against C-Dilla as long as I need it for TurboTAX.

Thanks for the info w.r.t. a non DRM version.

The brother of your friend died commited a crime

[Walabio]

Legally when one commits a crime, one assumes risks and liabilities. Unless you can show that Ricky Coleman deliberately killed Douglas Fischer, he cannot be charged with murder.

You can sue BestBuy.Com for hiring a nutjob like Ricky Coleman. I remember in the 1980s, a barowner in town without a brain, decided to hire some thugs for security. The thugs attacked people just for shits and kicks -- What great security. The victims successfully sued the thugs and barowner.

You could try a wrongful deathsuit against BestBuy.Com and Ricky Coleman; but since however, Douglas Fischer died commiting a crime you would have to prove that Ricky Coleman deliberately killed Douglas Fischer. If Ricky Coleman would have killed an innocent person, you could have won a wrongful deathsuit just for Ricky coleman killing an innocent person. The difference goes back to people taking risks and liabilities in the commission of a crime.

I would see a lawyer before pursuing any action.

Home Depot

[wideBlueSkies]

Not exactly the same thing, but here it goes:

This company must have a policy of taking stuff from the return dept sealing the box without checking the contents and putting it back on the floor for sale.

I couln't tell you how many times I've bought something there that looked legit kitchen/bathroom faucets, power tools, lighting fixtures, etc only to bring them home to find that parts were missing.

Then I bring them back, pointing out that parts are missing, and get shit from the return clerk and management. "we sold it to you with the parts, why are you stealing from us?". Eventually I'd get my return after becoming very loud and agitated, and pointing out that I KNOW that they restock incomplete kits.

I've run into this in multiple stores in the NY/NJ area. I used to think it was just my bad luck until I had a conversation with a local building contractor who found the same problems.

Since there's really no place else in my area to get home supplies, I'm forced to go back to Home Depot. So I've started to open and inspect packages before I buy them. The last time I was there, security hassled me becasue I looked like I was stealing parts out of a lighting kit.

I can't wait for a Lowe's to open nearby....

wbs.

Jesus.

[JKConsult]

Is your life not already complicated enough by the numerous tiny, shiny digital things to keep track of that you need to have one more for every piece of software you own? I like tiny, shiny digital things, too, but man, you're hard-core.

OK, but...

[IBitOBear]

OK, but where is my uninfected copy of turbotax 2002? (I bought it an ran it in a vmware session to prevent the spread of disease. I would like to have it "for real" wihtout the crap. "or else")

That would satisfy me.

If they can't pony up, drop them.

[IBitOBear]

No, if they were *REALLY* listening they would pony up and fix their mistake.

I bought TurboTax 02 and ran it in a vmware partiton to prevent the infection from spreading.

So far all the remedies Intuit has offered is a way to uninstall the mal-ware when you uninstall the product. They have done nothing to provide me with an unencumbered and fully working replacement for the crapware they originally released.

If they were serious about keeping my business they would send me a CD that contained the program in 100% workable, 100% mal-ware-freee format so that it was safe for me to use next year to consult on my old records.

That or release a patch that make the program "uncrippled" (etc) using the CD I already have.

When I see *THAT* effort, I will be satisfied.

Re:The brother of your friend died commited a crim

[brocheck]

You're totally incorrect. I can be pilfering all sorts of shit, that doesn't change ANYTHING. Action was already carried successfully against Best Buy corporation. You would not have to prove that Ricky Coleman killed him on purpose, although his actions and statements verified by witnesses kind of prove that he did. If you negligently kill someone you're still responsible for their death even if they are in the process of committing fraud.

You know nothing about the united states legal system and your lack of a sense of propriety amazes me. Your attitude reminds me of the Spartanburg county coroner who stated:

"He would not have had the incident happen if he hadn't been conducting illegal activity inside the store," Burnett said, "It's almost like to me if a man is drunk and runs into a tree and tries to blame the person who planted the tree for causing his injuries." [Spartanburg Herald Journal, July 28, 1995]

If you want to see some of what that great civil servant said, head over to here.

Oh and by the way, in this legal system people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Mr. Fischer never was proven guilty because he was strangled to death outside the Best Buy by its employees before he could have a trial or even be arrested.

Re:Non-expiring Tax Calculator Electronic Submissi

[Kombat]

Name one.

Hint: Not everyone can afford a computer. No state will ever make electronic filing mandatory, for that exact reason. It would be seen as "anti-poor."