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FCC Proposes Fining AT&T Over DNC Violation
Iphtashu Fitz writes "The FCC has just announced a proposed $780,000 fine against AT&T for violating the recently enacted Do Not Call telemarketing rules. The FCC charges that AT&T marketers called 29 consumers on 78 different occasions after those consumers had signed up on the Do Not Call list. The FCC has posted a press release (pdf) to this effect on their web site."
Glad to hear that there is an enforcement of the DNC happening...getting legal precedent set is important, so that we know that the law is truly in force.
On a practical note, this way when the telemarketers call, we can know that we're dealing with a felon, and proceed accordingly.
Personally, I support the DNC list - I hate being interrupted at all hours of day or night for solicitations. My motto? - If I want your product/service - I'll come to you to find out what you have to offer.
I say this is great because if AT&T gets fined, it shows that nobody's above the rules and will send a message to all the smaller telemarketers who might be tempted to ignore the DNC. It's nice to know that nobody, no matter how big or small, is above the rules.
On the other hand, as we all know, the DNC is hotly contested in court as possible free speech violations, among other things. I don't think the courts really care about the small telemarketer and their rights, but someone with the size, lobbying ability, and lawyer teams that AT&T has really could put up a good fight to the law.
It's a nice precedent to see AT&T fined for this, but I hope it doesn't backfire.
SEARCHING FOR SIG
SIG NOT FOUND ERROR
READY.
This is based on the rules that have long been in place that you can request that a company put you on their internal do not call list.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Having a DNC list is great and all, but if you either can't or don't enforce it, it's worthless.
I'd say AT&T is testing their limits, seeing what they can get away with. If the FCC lets them go on this one, I suspect the DNC list will become pretty useless.
no comment
I'm glad to see AT&T being held accountable in particular. I've got a personal vendetta, you see... they called us all the time before the DNC, trying to get us to switch to them as long distance providers. Despite never agreeing to switch to them, we suddenly began recieving bills for long their long distance program. The funny thing is, we never use long distance... that's what cell phones are for. Suckers.
It must all be a mistake.
Surely the consumers had opted-in with a business partner.
Caution: Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
Figure that 1 out of 100 consumers who receive calls in violation of the DNC submit compaints.
Out of 300 who complained (probably slightly less, since some may have complained multiple times), 29 of them were accepted, or about 1 in 10.
So one could assume that for every violation that was reported, investigated, and verified, about 1000 went unpunished.
So the actual penalty comes out to about $10 per actual violation, reported or not.
According to this article the fine is not for violating the recently enacted DNC list, but rather for violating separate FCC rules. Specifically if someone asks you to remove their name from your list you are required to do so.
What is also interesting is AT&T's reaction in the above article, as I have had telemarketers call me offerring me things like identity theft protection on my AT&T Universal card, yet they aren't at all affiliated with AT&T.
ATT's press release, stating that:
We want to stress that this FCC investigation is not based on the nationwide do-not- call list that went into effect in October. Instead, it concerns claims by customers who believed they were on an AT&T-specific list and received a call they think was from AT&T.
I am impressed. The DNC registry has worked for me. I used to get calls all the time. The only people who call now are the bill collectors. I did get one charity, which quickly added me to their DNC list after I queried why they were calling me and I got one real pollster doing a real poll, which I don't actually mind.
The only thing left is for the year to end so that the Must Transmit Caller ID information is in force. I thought it took effect the same time as the DNC, but it doesn't actually take effect to the new year. Anyone automated calling to your house must transmit caller ID information and they have to take proactive steps to actually transmit the information. No excuses.
D.O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.M.
The question is will they give any of this money to the people bothered by the calls? They were probably bothered once or twice during dinner, or at some other point of the day, but they took the time to call AT&T about it, and were called anyway... Maybe, just maybe, they will get some of this `pain' reimbursed...
AT&T Called me about a week after the list was turned on.. of course I got the name and number of the person calling me and then explained that I'm on the DNC list. Would believe she freaked out and asked to not be identified or report her company.
I was like "I've been bombarded by spam from all directions for the last 15 years.. it's on my truck, my answering machine, my email and the d**n phone. You bed your telemarketing arse I'm reporting you."
I did however leave her last name out of the complaint but ya know what.. at work if I screw up the FAA can fine me 10k.. they should be just as careful.
They were calling to sell me broadband access... but they made sure to preface their call with "you recently purchased a laptop from us". As this Do Not Call thing swings into use I forsee the value of knowing who companies sell their products to significantly more valuable than it's ever been. It used to be that only Radio Shack asked who you were ... get used to EVERYONE doing it ... because they'll be able to partner with other retailers and cross-sell products using that loophole in the Do-Not-Call law.
Here's a telemarketing situation where I'm just waiting for the payoff. Our office has several blocks of 100 numbers each, most of which aren't in use and are forwarded to the front desk (because a client may have an old number). Some months ago a mortgage company started autodialing our blocks. Our receptionist went from calm to frothing at the mouth in 60 seconds flat, and eveyone else was getting either a hangup call or a voicemail left for them.
I called the 800 number in the voicemail I personally received, got a manager on the line in record time (it helps if you sound like you want to confirm your satellite recon for the imminent airstrike) and explained that we had a block of numbers, that they were calling ALL of them and to please stop right-fucking-now. I then did the usual bit about do not call lists and a copy of the policy (which I never got). The do not call list was tough, since numbnuts didn't grok the "I have several hundred consecutive numbers" part very well.
The next day they did it again. I got another manager on the line, who was significantly less than understanding about the whole affair. In point of fact, he seemed dismissive of the whole fact that I had complained the day before and tha the was perhaps a bit offended that I was trying to interfere with his attempt to rescue a failing mortgage business. I reminded him about the FCC's $500 per call regulation and he got offended. Go figure. Apaprently the fact that the Federal government might put him out of business wasn't a factor in his worldview. I rang off.
And called the local police department and reported a couple hundred harassing phone calls. I leaned heavily on the second manager's attitude toward my request of the previous day and on his utter disregard for Federal codes covering his business. I named both managers in the complaint. These guys are less than fifty miles from us and in the same state, so it could happen.
We have a case number. Some day they'll screw up, and then a telemarketing manager will do the Perp Walk. I'll be sure to put whatever details I can on a website so we can all share the joy.
"I'm sorry? You say we called a number that was on the do-not-call list? Hmmm...hold on, let me check. What's the number?"
*click click click*
delete from do_not_call_list where phone_no = '212-555-9364'
"No, I don't see it here. Must be some mistake. That's OK, it happens all the time."
Why the hell is this "proposed"? It should just be - the law's in place, ATT is violating it, and they should pay the fine - end of story.
Jeezus, I'd love to have a "proposed" fine the next time I get a speeding ticket.
I'm not suprised in the least that AT&T got tagged for violating their own (not the FCC) DNC list. They are one of the most relentless telemarketers.
I was getting about a call a week from them when I finally demanded to be placed on their DNC list. Immediately sfter the request, they began calling 2-3 times a week.
When I asked why they kept calling, they lamely said it took 6-8 weeks for the DNC request to be propagated throughout all of their call lists. Only after roughly 8 weeks (and my launching into a profanity laced tirade on each call) did the calls cease.
Last week, I got a telemarketer call - yes, I'm on the DNC list. I started slyly asking them,"so, what's the name of your company, again?" Then asked them, "what number are you calling from?"
The lady then freaked-out saying that,"You're oon the DNC list! We're downloading the list now." and gave a bunch of other incredibly stupid reasons why they were breaking the law. In the mean time, I kept repeatedly asking for the number. They never gave it to me.
So, I repported them to both the Federal and the State. And on the State's (GA), I placed in my complaint that the company refused to give me their number.
I have a funny feeling that nothing will come of it, since I didn't get their number.
Which leads me to another issue, how do you file a complaint when these shitheads know to game the system? Is the FCC just going after the big fish in hopes of curtailing the little fry? Which means, the little fry can make calls with impunity?
My 3 cents
There is no spoon or sig.
1. Get a Caller ID Box. Your telco probably will charge you a fee for sending the information, since as they see it, you might decide not to answer the phone based on who is calling and therefore they will not earn the connection charge on the call. 2. Block Withheld Numbers if you live in a jurisdiction where withholding your number is still legal. Your telco probably will charge you for this, but it's worth it. {before I had mine blocked, I used to say to Number Withheld: "Are you a paedophile? Because your number is withheld." That saw them off. On my mobile, where there is no such service available, I have to resort to doing an impression of a recorded announcement: "Anonymous calls are not welcome on this line. If your business is important you may ring back without withholding your number. Goodbye." 3. Don't say anything if you don't recognise the caller's number. This spins them out, because they think it could be an answering machine. A legitimate caller will ask for you by name. A sleazeball telemarketer will just hang up. 4. Ask them how they got your number. This distracts them from the purpose of the call and maybe gets them into an infinite loop. 5. If all else fails, remember that it is your line, and you are under no obligation to be polite with unwanted callers. Any obligation of politeness would fall on the originator, not the recipient. I think the best solution would be for the do-not-call list to be in the phone directory, by placing a symbol next to the numbers of people who did not wish to receive unsolictited sales calls. I'm not so anti-social that I'd consider going ex-directory, because that would jeopardise things for people who might have a legitimate reason to call me {and because I like looking up my name in the new phone book every 18 months or so, it gives me a kick without harming anyone else}. Having the "do not call" list in the phone book itself would be almost foolproof. Everyone with a phone line gets the phone book, so there would be no shortage of witnesses to the fact that your number was on the list. The only downside is that you might have to wait till the new directory was published in order to get your name properly DNC'd. But the telemarketing companies could be made to subscribe to an update list as a condition of their operating licence.
"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
In AT&T's case, they will be bound by US law because they are a US corporation, they have offices here, and they do business in the US. Where the call originates doesn't matter since it is AT&T calling you and they do have control over it.
Even if it is a foreign corporation, the fines will still stick if they have offices here or are licensed to do business in the US.
The case I'm not real sure about is if you were a foreign corporation, did not have offices in the US, and did no business in the US (i.e. were not licensed to sell anything here, etc.) And if that were the case, then why are you calling me since you can't sell me anything?
Also, if you were a complete independent telemarketing company and were hired to do a campaign into the US for someone else, then I don't know what the law would say. Maybe the fines would apply to the company that paid for the ad campaign?
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
If we have to have a Big Brother (which apparently we do), at least it's nice to have one that will beat up people who keep bothering you.
Your right of free speech stops at my mailbox. The constitution does not give you the right to electronically barge your way (uninvited) into my home, demand the use of my equipment and ink and paper supplies to present your message, shifting all your selling costs to me without my permission or request.
0 3/022705P.p df
Can you imagine a whole new class of "door-to-door" salesmen who knocked on your door, entered your house uninvited, demanded the use of your possessions, showed their product and then claimed that you had no right to stop them because it would violate their right of free speech?
The TCPA has been around for over 10 years now and has been upheld to be constitutional, but that doesn't prevent lawyers from trying the same old arguments again and again. They include: Destination Ventures, Ltd. v. FCC, 46 F.3d 54, (9th Cir. 1995), and Moser v. FCC, 46 F.3d 970 (9th Cir. 1995), cert. denied, 515 U.S. 1161. See also Kenro, Inc. v. Fax Daily, Inc., 962 F. Supp. 1162 (S.D. Indiana 1997). Linder v. Thrifty Oil negates the popular "minimal harm" argument.
Because cert to the US Supreme Court was denied in the 9th Circuit, it means that the operating law is the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling which unanimously upheld the TCPA as constitutional. The 9th Circuit is the largest of the 13 federal circuits so this ruling holds a lot of weight. It covers California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Alaska, Hawaii, Guam or the Northern Mariana Islands. In addition, federal district courts in three circuits have also upheld the constitutionality of the TCPA.
An 8th Circuit District Court (Eastern District of Missouri) judge ruled (March 13, 2002) that the TCPA is unconstitutional. The judge was none other than Rush Limbaugh's uncle, Steven Limbaugh, Sr. Limbaugh's bogus ruling was reversed, as we predicted, by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals on March 21, 2003. (it is important for you all to understand the differences between a ruling being reversed, remanded, or otherwise directed. Reversed pretty much means that something was in such gross error, it should have never existed.)
http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/03/
More infor can be found at junkfax.org
Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
Interestingly enough, I believe that att may actually not fight the fine. Fighting it would be a PR nightmare. How can they justify with public support the position that they have to call people who explcitely desire to not be called?
Fining att was a smart move by the fcc. If it was some scumbag telemarketing company that got fined they would probably care less what their PR appearance was.
love is just extroverted narcissism
They aren't that well researched in the demographics department. Here's a typical sample with the cast of AT&T Rep and myself:
AR: We're offering a special long distance package for you. May I ask who provides you with your long distance service?
Me: Yes. I don't have a long distance service.
AR: You don't have one?
Me: Yes.
AR: Sir, do you make any long distance phone calls?
Me: No. (pause to enhance clueless consumer effect)
AR: Sir, we'd like to-
Me: (interrupts) Actually, yes, I make local long distance phone calls.
AR: You don't have a long distance service provider but you make local long distance calls?
Me: Yes.
AR: How is that sir? Do you use pre-paid phone cards?
Me: No.
AR: Uh... How do you place local long distance calls sir?
Me: I use my mobile phone.
AR: And, sir, who is you wireless phone service provider?
Me: AT&T.
AR: Oh... (long pause)... Thank you for your time sir, you have a good night.
I've had this conversation with AT&T three times now. The novelty has not yet worn off. I wonder when they'll compile a list of existing customers, so they can save money on long distance calls.
=D
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
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Got a call from one of these sleazebags (after 9:30pm) and after I whipped out the DNC on them they backpedaled and said they were simply conducting a "Survey" of my attitudes on long distance - and therefore were exempt from the DNC.
... blah blah blah ..."
..
You know the kind of survey - with questions like - "Did you know that AT&T now has the lowest per minute rate
Phuckers - hope they all burn in hell
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
AT&T Consumer and Business Services is a different company from AT&T Wireless.
I don't mean independantly operated, I mean a different company.
AT&T Wireless moved from independant operation to independant in 2000 over 3 years ago.
Trust me, if you had been foolish enough to buy the stock (AWE) you would remember.
The Credit Card is yet another non AT&T company carrying the AT&T brand.
If that's all the violations they've had then they have done quite well. Or I should say thier contractors have done well.
The problem with fines is that they end up being looked at as the cost of doing business. We need more appropriate penalties for corporations. Corporate death penalty, anyone? What would be analogous to imprisonment for a publically-traded company?
AT&T Government Services actually "runs" the DNC list, but, AT&T is telemarketing and not using the DNC list. One would think that it wouldn't be too hard for them to even get a copy of the list, since a different division of their company runs it.
Maybe their version of "prior business relationship" is when you signed up on the DNC list.
I disable sigs...do you?
htttp://www.privacycall.com. Best $90 I ever spent. Telemarketing calls went from 3-5 per day to 0.
I got a call a few weeks back, Saturday morning at 9AM from AT&T wanting to sign me up for long distance service. I quickly whipped out the "I don't have long distance, don't want it, have a no-pick on my service, and want you to place me on your do-not-call list immediately".
The woman on the other end got very unpleasant very quickly, and asked "Is this [not-my-name]?" I told her that I was not that person, and that this is my phone number. She very quickly (and gleefully I might add) told me that if I was not the person whose name she had, then I was not authorized to place this (MY) phone number on a do-not-call list and that I would continue to receive solicitation calls until I signed up for long distance with AT&T. Then she hung up on me.
That fucking pissed me off. The follow-up call to their customer service to file a complaint and add myself to the do-not-call list was not much better. After about 5 minutes of arguing with the guy that if I had an emergency, I would either dial 911 or go to a neighbor's phone, I finally just kept repeating "You're refusing to add me to your do-not-call list. Let me speak to your manager immediately." Took about 15 times of that with me getting louder and louder each time before he put me on hold for 30 seconds. Then the same guy came back to "confirm my information for the do-not-call list." He then proceeded to mis-speak my number not once, not twice, but 10 times, trying to get me to "confirm" a different number. Only after threatening with the manager bit again did he successfully repeat my number.
As far as I'm concerned, these fuckers should roast in their own shit. About time the government is giving us the power to fight back, and I'm really looking forward to my first $11,000 bonus check from a telemarketer who refused to follow the DNC list.
I'll never understand how they believe that infuriating the potential customer will successfully gain new business. And given the attitude I've gotten from telemarketers, I can guarantee you that the calls are NOT monitored for quality assurance.