Slashdot Mirror
Second Life Recognizes IP Of User-Created Objects
Thanks to TerraNova for pointing to a Yahoo press release revealing that "online world" Second Life now recognizes the ownership of in-world content made by subscribers. According to the press release, "The revised TOS allows subscribers to retain full intellectual property protection for the digital content they create, including characters, clothing, scripts, textures, objects and designs." As well as this, "Second Life has committed to exploring technologies to make it easy for creators to license their content under Creative Commons licenses", but, while these CC licenses are still being discussed, questions about the just-implemented IP issues are addressed at an official FAQ page on the Second Life site.
...that's a terrible idea. Now you've just sucked your company into disputes between your your customers. Oh, and you get to pay your lawyers to defend your new digital licenses in court, when some bozo decides to challenge it.
State of Play Blog and New IP Rules for Second Life
The only thing that could really exists outside of Second Life is textures, and from what I've seen Second Life needs as many textures as it can get its hands on (it has horrible graphics).
Slashdotter are stupid and biased.
...the similarities between the Second Life logo and the Journey Cloths from Uru: Ages Beyond Myst? Anyone have any insight on that one?
2) Play frisbee with my rat-thing.
3) Punch that damn Librarian.
"You know why you do not see me styling wit my homies? Because I have no homies!!" -Mojo Jojo
Yes, but if you used the GPL someone else could take your sword and use it. If they made changes to it, they would have to make it available to everyone else.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Really neat stuff. It lets average people get a feel for what programming is like in a MMO environment. So the fact that they recognize your stake in what you create is meaningful, given that you aren't just repositioning in-game objects but actually designing your own stuff to entertain others in the game. I may actually have to give it a try now, although the folks that get a little too into these things have made me leery of doing so to this point.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
i can't wait until people start trading real money if they can... i can see some name brand clothing retailers buying accounts and creating officially licensed clothing for the game...
What? This is a derivative work? But yours has clothes on!
...but NAT routers are really going to mess up this scheme. What if more than one person has the same IP?
Said property is properly known as GNUproperty.
That's like saying that when I create a document within the virtual world of MS Word, that I get to keep the copyright on the document...and then act surprised by it.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
You discover it. You can create lemonade from lemon juice, sugar, and water. Nobody else could have created that glass of lemonade. But with information, two people can independently "create" it. So it's not creating, it's discovering.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
I have never played Second Life... but what happesn if this sets a precedent for other online games. Can you sue someone for killing your character or stealing your stuff? If so, will the defense simply be "It wasn't me... my computer was being hacked."
From the Rules page:
Sound nice? Get working.
Perhaps you need to read the GPL again. there are very specific conditions. It's not as general as you would make it out to be. If you still have concerns, consider the LGPL.
But the question is: does it lead to Raaka-Tu?
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
These online games seemed doomed to recreate the complications that drive people to play games in the first place. I wonder if Second Life will now have a PTO in the game to register and regulate player-created IP. I wonder if the games will become so much like real-life that some people will craft a simplier MMORPG to play inside a more complex one ("Third Life" anyone???).
What is the world coming to when one must escape from even escapist entertainments?
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
I have wondered about this. What if I want to rape and pillage? Can I break into people's "homes," steal their stuff, defile their avatars if I wish, kill them if I don't and sell their stuff at a pawn shop?
One of the things that, I believe, prompted this change was a user who wanted to write a framework for an MMORPG style game ruleset in SecondLife. They wanted to have the option to use this framework else where, such as porting it from the in-game scripting language to say, perl. The previous TOS, like most, included stipulations that all content created in SecondLife becomes the property of Linden Labs.
Now, the TOS reads closer to the Yahoo!/GeoCities one for websites. In fact, that particular TOS was brought up as an example of what could be done. So the new TOS basically gives Linden Labs the ability to use your work to advertise, to delete it if the game goes under, or to debug it when it breaks things.
I've been playing SecondLife for a couple months now, and it has been amazing. The basic concept is similar to a 3D MUSH, more oriented to social and building activities than combat. But the Lindens have been hands down the most responsive online gaming company that I have dealt with. Unlike EQ, DAoC, etc, the in-game representatives socialize with the players, and have a face. They are real people not just a glowing orb that teleports you out of the lava where you got stuck. The change in the TOS after commentary by players is just the latest example of how well they actually listen.
You get what you pay for, so the saying goes.
Messed up any more ascensions lately?
At least this will take care of the "You can't sell that on ebay, we OWN it!" restriction that MMORPG companies seem to have.
"Nope, it's MY IP now!"
Or you could just say... I dunno, not care about it? /me dawns lvl 9 cloak of feigning concern.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
It was a joke, no need to get all huffy RMS.
heck I don't even have a first life, wouldn't I need that first???
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
Have you played D&D with us before?
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
What happens when you assert ownership over something in the game that is in fact based on something else in RL that someone else has a RL copyright on? Then, does the RL copyright holder have any recourse? Who would they send the cease and desist to? This seems like an idea that is doomed to failure.
B O R I N G
You can read about the variety of options available in the creative commons licenses at the Creative Commons website
Essentially it's a templated license where the owner selects what terms to use.the options are:
So essentially it boils down to:
I play a similar game. It's called "Real Life". I also spend a lot of time creating social relationshipsand building things. Right now, I've got a ton of friends, several hot girlfriends, and I'm building a business. It's really fucking exciting. The best part of it? I don't even need to sit in front of a computer for 12 hours a day! If anybody wants to try "Real Life", just turn your computer "off". It's very interactive, and very, very realistic.
November 14, Redmond, Washington - ipRus Inc. has just released the next generation computer game, SimPatent(R)(TM)(SM). It is a massively distributed multiplayer sinulation environment which allows gamers worldwide to participate in the fun world of intellectual property. Previously reserved only for high class CEOs and high payed lawyers (and an occasional 12-year old), this new simulation allows anybody to wield the power of intelectual control to crush their opponents. Cheating is not only allowed, but encouraged as a way to help out those players who are not very good. If an opponent is stronger than you, you may within the game reduce him to nothing by using our patented simulated legal system. Plans are already underway for enhancements, including a legislative system that can be manipulated by players to alter the game rules in their favor. ipRus's game servers are to go online in early December 2003, however the company is already accepting player applications, requiring only the exchange of personal information and email addresses.
Who's to say nobody ever wrote something similar to the constitution and maybe did not get it circulated enough?
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Well that was fun while it lasted
Allright, really quick now, let me dispell some myths and doubts, since I've noticed that almost no posters even know what Second Life is, since they keep referring to it as an MMORPG and talking about swords and monsters and PK'ing and being able to 'patent your inventory'.
Second Life is *not* an RPG, there are no monsters or quests or anything. It does *not* have PK-ing, tjhe ability to steal other people's objects, or damage other's property (although you could code all these behaviours and more into objects you create, with the tools the game gives you). At its base, it's a glorified chat room, where you create an avatar and then fly around the world, meeting people, chatting with them, etc. However, certain things set it apart, the biggest one being that you have the freedom and ability to create 3D objects in the game, import textures and sounds, and use a specialized scripting language to assign actions, movements, behaviours, etc. to those objects and to your avatar. The depth of this creation system is absolutely stunning, and limited really only by your skill (and that's *your* skill as the person behind the keyboard doing the modeling and coding, not your character's artificial skill stats) and imagination. While a lot of people limit themselves ot just making things like t-shirts, paintings, and simple houses, I've seen very large, complex creations around the Second Life world, including entire floating cities, RPG systems coded in game with the scripting language, dragons, roller coaster and amusement park rides, sports arenas, game shows, and a lot more, all fully created by the players.
All these creations require time, effort and skill from the person making them. If you create a sword in Second Life, you actually model the thing, create the polygons, upload and tweak the textures, and script its actions.. you don't find the sword after killing a rabbit or roll you 'swordmaking' skill for the 'crafting' aspect of the game. You spend real time and effort to make it. You can imagine how much time some people have invested in their more ambitious creations.
That's, I think, what makes the difference here. The reason why IP should matter in a game like Second Life, as opposed to, say, Everquest or any of the other MMORPG's, even those with 'crafting' components, is that effort involved in the actual creation of the item. I don't mind a game company telling me that I can't sell a sword I won after battling a dragon in Everquest for real money because they own the IP on that sword. It's their right, they made the sword, they coded it and made the art etc. etc. etc. For all the effort I put into killing that dragon, I earn the right to use that sword of theirs in the game and reap its benefits, in game. However, when you're talking about a sword I crafted myself from bare polygons and scripts, that I spent hours on the Gimp or Photoshop tweaking the textures for, and you tell me that that item isn't mine and I can't sell it for real money if I want to, that's another matter entirely.
I personally applaud Second Life and their staff for recognizing this, that the effort and dedication that the players pour into the game with their creations makes the game itself better, and they deserve the fruits of their labour, and to keep the rights to their own creations. Second Life is far from perfect, it's got its bugs, its griefers, and its issues.. but with moves like this from their staff, it's also taking several very large steps towards setting itself apart from all the other MMO games and creating soemthing truly unique. Kudos to the founders for this decision.
"Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
In the SL world, everything works on Linden$ (L$). Everything you build costs money. For instance, if I want to build a cube (or other type of primitive) it costs me $10. If I destroy that cube, I get my $10 back. If I decide to keep the cube in the game at all times, even when I'm not logged in, I get taxed on it. This is to encourage people not to leave stuff just lying around, cluttering up the landscape, and more importantly, the game server with processing your junk.
:)
:)
Every week you get a stipend, of roughly L$1000, which will never increase your account balance beyond $3500. To gain more money than that, you have to earn it. One way of earning L$ is to sell things, such as clothes, models, or scripts.
Unless you figure out an exploit, you cannot steal anyone's things. Every note, script and object you create has a list of permissions, such as copyable, modifiable, moveable, buyable.
In most of the SL world, you cannot hurt anyone. In the areas where you can be hurt, if you die, all that happens is you get teleported home. That's it.
You don't have to worry about someone beating you up and robbing you
My favorite thing about SL is the scripting language. Like Hiro in snow crash. You can literally click an object in the game, and bring up the scripting code in a window, and start futzing with it. This is a really good toy version of the metaverse
--
#include <malloc.h>
free(your.mind);
Will there be a database of 2nd Life code? Like a sourceforge? How about a 2nd Life UI for interacting with it? Like a smithy/library, where avatars meet to demo and haggle? Auctioneer avatars taking their cut of licensing transactions?
How about a 2nd Life virtual machine for running 2nd Life code on my Gnome desktop? How long before we move that desktop *inside* 2nd Life, for development teams?
--
make install -not war
I wonder how long you keep those IP rights after the death of your character? :^P
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
If you use the GPL, does that mean the game has Open Sourcery?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
The landmark case of Greenfeld v. Verant (2001) established that the owner of a game owns all intellectual property rights for in-game objects.
citation?
I remember the days when the only people who had to give a damn about copyright laws were those who held 'em and the big piracy rings who infringed upon them and sold the bootlegs in Times Square. The big arms race of the new millenium seems to be for everyone to horde everything they can under the umbrella of copyright/trademark/patent. I'm surprised you can masturbate any more without signing away the rights to your bodily fluids. It is sad that because of a world controlled by a handful of wealthy political interests, we have to sign/click a waiver/EULA for almost anything we do. I do not envy the world my children will inherit.
I thought it was a troll/crapflooder.
This bugs me. Recognizing IP should be easy right? 127.0.0.1. If they mean copyright say copyright. IP has an existing definition that is decades older.
What a lot of "programers" don't realize is that there is a very rich and textured world of legality that exists in the corporate world. What is actually taking place is the legal precedent of rights. There is nothing like this in precedent, so there is an ongoing establishment of "rights" taking place. Its important in the legal/courts environment, but not necessarily in the court of public opinion. However, these issues need to be addressed to determine business practices.
I haven't read the article, and know zip about this particular game, so I can't speak to this implementation, but only the concept.
Perhaps you are looking at it too narrowly. I for one thought this to be quite a progressive step and one that is consistent and equitable with respect to honoring the rights of all to create and participate in the process, rather than just signing everything away to the corporate monolith as has traditionally been the norm.
As we conduct more and more of our activities in on-line worlds, and our creative works manifest more in the same, then is it not reasonable and natural that those manifestations to serve the same purposes as the goods and services we produce in the wetworld? Think about it: wouldn't it be cool for your "day job" to be blacksmith in an on-line RPG? For now, it may only produce on-line currency that subsidizes your game time, but in the not too distant future, you, and the other users, might become co-creators with the game publisher and actually make a living from it.
It just seems a natural progression of the economy to extend into virtual worlds this way. I'd much rather see this than a bunch of hamburger-flipping losers by day paying corporate giants to play their RPGs in the evening.
Perhaps not as eloquent as Gibson or Stephenson would express it, but do you get what I'm pushing out here?
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
It reminded me of the metaverse in snow crash, somewhat. Like how hiro and da5id had complete control etc over their areas, inside the common "proprietary" metaverse...
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms,
*PKs AndroidCat*
That's not a cloak. It's lube of CANNING THE MANHAM!
Personally, I think the first hack and slash EQ/AC style game that lets users build their own content/quests/etc will take off. Game companies simply can't afford to pump out enough content to keep users busy. Whats better? 30 developers for 100,000 players? Or thousands of developers for 100,000 players?
When I mention this people talk about quality and making sure the overall theme is the same. Well, create a panel that evaluates potential additions to the game. ie, user creates a dungeon and wants to add it and sends a request to get it placed in the world. The committee (considering of gamers/developers and company employees) evaluate it. They could send it back for more work, fix bugs or reject it.
Anyways, that would be my perfect MMORPG. I still remember the day I obtained wizard status in my first mud and could start designing my own objects, weapons, monsters, etc.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
I'm curious as to what the legal consequences will be if it becomes unprofitable and they shutdown the servers....
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
Find it on Lexis-Nexis. You do have a subscription to Lexis-Nexis, don't you?
Heres the review to the game everyone is raving about! Real Life Review
Well at least I think it is funny. And I don't think many things modded as "Funny" here are funny.
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
But , Oh m lord, didn't you even spell check your super statement. Your mission was to flame someone and you didn't even proof it?
Is "geek" the new "slut"?
At first, I didn't know what Second Life was and I was dead against this. Now I think it is a good idea. People are spending God knows how many hours creating this stuff, putting it online and having it ripped off.
I am all for this as long as it doesn't cross over between other games. That would be a huge mess and would be impossible to enforce.
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
FPSs like Quake or Counter are quite difficult or impossible for older people or even teenagers without good motor skills. Online RPGs in general are quite difficult to people without the right mindset (and the will to keep killing rats and rabbits for hours till their skill with a sword gets good enough to allow them to kill dogs and cats, reload and repeat).
Second Life audience is likely to be quite different from Everquest or Ultima, since their most important point is the original building capacity.
* he the original poster in his answer to you
Your first born child won't inherit anything because you clicked that Microsoft EULA and willed him away...
I see potential IP issues here. Not the patent kind though; more like the DHCP kind...
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
On the other hand, there's no Linux client, so I can't find out firsthand.
Mail? Put "slashdot" in the subject to pass the spam filters.
This game seems alot like There for grown ups.
Both Snow Crash (someone mentioned Hiro and the manipulation of objects in his environment) and Tad Williams' Otherworld feature this sort of behavior in their environment. Player-crafted and -owned objects are common, and in fact are really what bring a player prestige.
I like the idea of an online environment where one's creative abilities and hard work are appreciated and rewarded, because it encourages similar behavior in others. Instead of spending hours just clicking on ingredients to craft something, actual time and mental resources are spent. Feels good.
Copyrights for any original works made by Content Providers belong to them, or jointly to them and Dragon's Eye if their work is based on Furcadia artwork or other content to the extent that it constitutes a 'derivative work' under current laws. By uploading their original work and/or derivative work to Furcadia, Content Providers automatically grant their permission for other players to use the Furcadia software to view and experience those works, a process in which the software may download copies of the works to the viewer's computer for viewing. In addition, the act of uploading grants Dragon's Eye license to redistribute the work in other formats or on other media that the software may support in the future, and to redistribute it in any way that it deems beneficial towards the goal of promoting Furcadia to the general public. Content Providers recognize and acknowledge that making their content available for other players to view and use incurs a certain amount of risk that some of those players may use, modify, or distribute that content in unauthorized ways which may infringe on the copyrights of the Content Provider. Each Content Provider agrees that they assume the entire risk of such infringement when they choose to upload, that they indemnify Dragon's Eye from any liability resulting from such infringement by third parties, that Dragon's Eye assumes no responsibility for taking punitive or corrective actions against such copyright violators, and that the Content Provider will pursue any and all remedies for such infringements on their own, whether these consist of requesting the infringer to cease and desist, filing a civil lawsuit against the infringer, or any other measures. In the event that a Content Provider chooses to file suit on a copyright infringement matter, Dragon's Eye agrees to provide any requested information regarding the transfer or use of the content involved that it may have in its records in a timely fashion.
I suspect that games like Regenesis and Alpha World were treating user created artwork and such as belonging to the user before we were, though I never actually read their license agreements.
Furcadia - A free online game with user created content, DragonSpeak scripting, & more.
IP been stolen? Guy looking at you funny? Virtual dog bite you? Come check out the SecondLife law offices of Duey, Cheatem & Howe..
I'll make a killing online..
Snooze and you lose your sushi.
IANAL, but as I understand it, Linden never had copyright of any kind of the stuff you created in the first place. If I'm not mistaken, it takes a signed contract to hand over copyright of your work to someone else, no matter what tools are used in its creation. Just because Second Life's previous TOS said they owned copyright of your stuff, that doesn't change copyright law.
But then again, IANAL, and it's very possible that I'm missing something.
-Enfors-
Sorry, I'll stick with FakeLife, since it's more enjoyable.
Reasons why RealLife sucks:
1) No save and reload when you fuck up. The WORM drive used by the space-time continuum sucks.
2) Pain. Sometimes the kind of pain where death is preferable -- cancer, fire and high school victims come to mind.
3) RealWorld has RealWorld Responsibilities, most of which you have no effective choice to refuse (goto work, pay taxes, deal with your disfunctional family).
4) Powerlessness. You don't have authority over your own life. Even in the most free societies, Society and Government tell you how you must behave or get punished. In fact, you even get punished for trying to use the "game off" button. (Aside: I'll never commit suicide; I'll make everyone else as miserable as I am instead, since I'm a vindictive bastard.)
5) You don't get to pick your sex, species or race in RealLife. You don't even get a single reroll of base stats or even get to point buy your base stats! I certainly wouldn't be running around with the following pathetic stats, STR: 8, DEX: 13, CON: 9, INT: 16, WIS: 5, CHA: 1, if I had any choice in the matter; I would have rerolled until I got at least 12's across the board.
I will give you some credit, RealLife does have it's plusses:
1) It's much more challenging than FakeLife and if you manage to beat the BBEG, it's much more rewarding.
2) Sophisticated AI governs NPC interactions. It's as if each NPC had it's own processor, memory and instructions!
3) Better graphics and sound, in particular the music selection in RealLife is much greater than that of FakeLife (although the Diablo music and the Icewind Dale main theme kick ass!).
4) Larger skill selection available in RealLife and you do get some choice of occupation.
Seriously though, why do you act supprised when people demonstrate a preference to FakeLife over RealLife. RealLife is hard, painful and ultimately unsaticefying -- I would rather play a game I can win.
...until Darl McBride gets an account. Then you'd better watch which avatar you choose.
I haven't modded ever, so that wasn't my mod. But I'm making the difference between a physical good versus an idea. The invention is the idea, the good is what is made. Say I've never heard of lemonade. I could say I discovered the recipe for lemonade, but what I create is only that particular glass that I made.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
Do we not have enough problems with people calling ideas "property" in the real world?
What is to come of this? If you create a virtual T-shirt, will you be able to say that any avatar wearing a T-shirt is "stealing" your "intellectual property"? What if someone claims to be the first to create a character with wings and goes suing every avatar with wings?
The legal concept of "intellectual property" should be erradicated, not expanded. Ideas are not property! They never have been. They never will be.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
I thought it was impossible that a Snow Crash reference would go over anyone's head here. I guess next time I'll have to draw some kind of connection between Second Life and Soviet Russia to snag my funny-points =)
"You know why you do not see me styling wit my homies? Because I have no homies!!" -Mojo Jojo
yes, actually. it returns no results.
The "intellectual property" term is confusing enough, since it confuses petents, copyright, trademarks and trade secrets. Using the acronym "IP" only makes things worse. First time I read the headline I skipped the article thinking that it is about the IP addresses of some game users being stored. I am serious. I thought the article was about privacy issues, not the copyright issues which I am always trying to be up to date with. So I ask you, if you absolutely have to use the "intellectual property" oxymoron (just remember it is not a legal term and shows that you don't understand the law, which casts a serious doubt on Slashdot journalistic integrity) please at least don't use the even more confusing "IP" acronym for that.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
user/pass?