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The Amazing Shrinking Supercomputer

mE123 writes "It would seem that IBM is trying to change what we all think of as super computers. Their new Blue Gene family of super computers is meant to be 6 times faster, consume 1/15 of the power and be 1/10 the size of current models. The prototype is already number 73 (with 2 teraflops) on the list of the most powerful super computers and it's only "roughly the size of a 30-inch television". They are hoping to be able to make it up to 360 Teraflops using only 64 racks." We covered this a bit earlier, but without the level of details.

210 comments

  1. Priorities.. by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Should the priority be making faster supercomputers (but large) or smaller supercomputers (but the same speed)? This one seems to be a step in both directions, but I wonder if they're sacrificing speed for size (or vice-versa).

    1. Re:Priorities.. by slimak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers? Isn't the main goal of the supercomputer to be fast as hell? Granted, if this can be achieved while simultaneously minimizing power and size then by all means go for it. However, as stated by my parent, what sacrafices are being made?

      That aside, I would happily take a computer the size of a 30" TV if it was SUPER!

    2. Re:Priorities.. by FinestLittleSpace · · Score: 3, Interesting

      By making a smaller super computer you're most probably adding the potential to house lots of them together, essentially getting more TF per square metre. However, the issue is raised that can these survive the heat?

      The other difference and potential problem when compared to a cluster is that in a cluster, if one machine fails, there's usually measures to just know that one machine out the network and carry on .... with smaller and smaller machines we are posed the problem that if this '30 inch tv' sized unit fails, so does the entire super computer.

      There's arguments for and against each, but as we all know, the best option will always be smaller when it becomes practical, affordable and reliable. After all, they best hurry these machines along ready for the release of Doom 3 ;-).

    3. Re:Priorities.. by kinnell · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers?

      Very few businesses/institutions can afford, nor need an Earth Simulator. Big power hungry supercomputers need specialised buildings with sufficient power supply and heat dissipation capabilities. By creating a small, power efficient supercomputer which can simply be plugged in in the server room, they open up an entirely new market.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
    4. Re:Priorities.. by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      This somehow reminds me... of what happened with calculators and wristwatches. No wories about speed vs. size there, either. I'm betting that supercomputers will fit into a full-tower case within my lifetime, say another 50 yrs. I'll also bet that they become *much* more accessible to businesses, etc.

      --
      C|N>K
    5. Re:Priorities.. by sporty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Depends.

      Do you need to find the cure for cancer via simulations faster or do you need to send a machine up on a 747?

      Different needs, different solutions.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    6. Re:Priorities.. by Andorion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Their new Blue Gene family of super computers is meant to be 6 times faster, consume 1/15 of the power and be 1/10 the size of current models

      If it's 1/10 the size and 1/15 the power and it's still faster, then we can stick 15 of them in a room, get the same power consumption, and have a larger "much faster" computer that you're looking for. This seems like a win-win direction to go in, for IBM.

      ~Berj

    7. Re:Priorities.. by rwoodsco · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers? Isn't the main goal of the supercomputer to be fast as hell? Granted, if this can be achieved while simultaneously minimizing power and size then by all means go for it. However, as stated by my parent, what sacrafices are being made?


      You need small power-efficient supercomputers so that you don't need a dedicated 100MW coal-fired power plant next door for each 10 teraflop building.

      Imagine the cooling system necessary for a building which dissipates the energy normally used by a small city!

      This is why bluegene is cool; they realize that at the high end, power is going to become the limiting factor, and they designed their architecture accordingly.

      Bobby
    8. Re:Priorities.. by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Plus, once you have a powerful, (relatively) energy efficient computer in a smaller package, you can use them as building blocks to scale a larger installation.

      Modular installation = better able to match requirements without having to build entire system from scratch = more cost effective solution for some (most?) customers.

      I think the "Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these" joke may actually pretty close to the point!
      =Smidge=

    9. Re:Priorities.. by grub · · Score: 1


      with smaller and smaller machines we are posed the problem that if this '30 inch tv' sized unit fails, so does the entire super computer.

      For sure, however I think most places that need these would buy more than one. Think of it as one of SGI's processing "bricks" rather than the be-all, end-all.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    10. Re:Priorities.. by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cause then it won't need such a sophisticated cooling system. Cooling systems are expensive, you know. There's no reason to waste power if you can help it

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    11. Re:Priorities.. by A55M0NKEY · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems that making computers small and efficient makes them fast as hell. Small = less distance for signals to travel = shorter times to wait for the signals to travel, and efficient = less heat given off = higher possile clock speeds.

      --

      Eat at Joe's.

    12. Re:Priorities.. by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 1

      Smaller and faster means more computers crammed into a smaller space. using less electricity and creating less heat means that while increasing density, you don't have to increase the support systems.

    13. Re:Priorities.. by David+McBride · · Score: 4, Informative

      Space and heat dissipation are becoming very serious limiting factors in the scalability of supercomputing clusters.

      In theory, you could just keep adding more and more nodes to an existing system, and as long as your interconnects were good enough, you could scale.

      But in practice energy consumption (and getting rid of the waste heat afterwards) will hit you before you can get much futher that we are today. The Big Mac G5 cluster in VA, for example, required custom cooling systems because conventional aircon units simply couldn't handle the load.

      As a result, IBM's work is *vital* for making faster supercomputers -- and the improvements they're claiming are very impressive indeed.

    14. Re:Priorities.. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to this rather detailed paper, IBM designed the unit around 700 MHz (0.13 micron) PowerPC 440 Processors. This is not the modern equivalent of a Cray 3.

      The node to node density, though, is very high. The maximum cable length is 8m.

    15. Re:Priorities.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > The Big Mac G5 cluster in VA, for example, required custom cooling systems because conventional aircon units simply couldn't handle the load.

      Have you never been in a server room. Almost every server room in existence has "custom cooling" no matter if it's Intel, SUN, SGI or IBM. This is NOT new.

    16. Re:Priorities.. by canajin56 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They once made a machine out of FPGA's. It worked by evolution: It would rearange different FPGA's and work out which gave the correct answer the quickest, and learn from there. Basically, it was pretty slow the first time it tried something. But if you let it learn for a while, you got supercomputer performances out of a tower-sized box (On the specific set of tasks it has learned, anyways).

      Its good for plenty of fixed-task things: Medical imaging, software-defined DSP, scientific computing, that sort of thing. You can check them out here

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    17. Re:Priorities.. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Size and wastefullness != faster.
      One of todays problems is that we are very inefficient in out chips. Think about Intel and AMD useing 80-100 watts of power, while Transmeta new 1.3 GHz uses only 7 watts. It is possible to build a parellel system using these and have the system be cheaper to build and run than with Intel/AMD.
      While this is going to be a real killer in terms of speed, it will hopefully make it more profitable for IBM as more companies will be able to afford these.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    18. Re:Priorities.. by Saeger · · Score: 1
      A cure for cancer? No, no - a treatment. Much more profitable.

      --

      --
      Power to the Peaceful
    19. Re:Priorities.. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sort of doesn't work that way. The shorter the wires, the faster the signal. The smaller the switch, the faster it flips. Etc.

      There are complications, but that's the general procedure. If you made a pentium the size of an IBM 360, it would probably be slower than a 360. (I'm assuming that you just scaled everything up...switches, path lengths, etc.)

      The real trick is when they get something small enough and organized enough that they can mass produce them. Then the price starts dropping too. This probably won't happen to a direct descendant of Blue Gene, as the chips are trying to do the same thing from a bottom up perspective, and they already have the cheapness that comes with mass production. But it will be interesting to see where "hyperthreading" goes. And SMP.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    20. Re:Priorities.. by pmz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers?

      It brings them into reach of small engineering firms and university engineering, science, and math departments.

      Imagine if supercomputing goes the way of the PC: affordable and ubiquitous to those who want them. It is arguable that today's gigaflops CPUs are already supercomputers, but I guess people are always striving for more.

    21. Re:Priorities.. by pmz · · Score: 1

      6 times faster, consume 1/15 of the power and be 1/10 the size of current models

      You know, being 6-times faster at 1/10 the size is actually being 60-times faster, IMO. It's definitely win-win.

    22. Re:Priorities.. by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Computer, what's the weather going to be like today?

      [PROCESSING]

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    23. Re:Priorities.. by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      No... you have to find the cure first, patent it so noone else can use it, then find a treatment, and since you have the patent on the cure, noone will be able to attack your business model (without thmeselves finding a completely different cure for cancer)

      Step 1: Find and Patent cure for cancer
      Step 2: Charge exhorbitant fees for treatment of cancer
      Step 3: Profit!!!

      (Flame me if you must, but it's working for AIDS... I'm sure there's a cure for it in someone's file cabinet, somewhere)

    24. Re:Priorities.. by cfuse · · Score: 1
      Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers?

      Tried to boot WinXP lately?

    25. Re:Priorities.. by sql*kitten · · Score: 1

      Modular installation = better able to match requirements without having to build entire system from scratch = more cost effective solution for some (most?) customers.

      SGI's Origin 3000 product range works like this. It's built from bricks, which have different capabilities like processor, I/O bandwidth, storage, etc. You buy the bricks you need to fit your application, and as you need more, you add more bricks. It's a very cool system, and SGI are ahead of the pack when it comes to packing a lot of compute power for little heat waste into small volumes.

  2. Finally! by clifgriffin · · Score: 5, Funny

    My mom wouldn't let me have one because they take up so much space!

    Clif

    Blogzine.net
    Fortress of Insanity

  3. Is he posting this... by j0keralpha · · Score: 1

    To invite entries for a super-computer that will fit in there? thats the only way this could possibly be on-topic.

  4. Howdy Ho! by turgid · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Howdy Ho guys. Seems to me like large clusters of "inexpensive" machines to make supercomputers is fast becomin' the norm rather than the exception. Hell, Im even buildin' my own cluster back at the ranch out of old junk machines. I ain't gonna crack no DNA mysteries, but I sure am goin' to have a lot of fun networkin' them up, writin' load balancin' code and doin' lots of sums. Yeah Haw!

  5. Scale and costs by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, how long will it be before these become commoditised for sme's ?

    Something that fits into the space of a 30" TV set (how about dimensions, guys ?) is presumably about half to 1/3 a standard rack in a co-lo. 2 Teraflops of processing power ought to be able to comfortably shift the bottleneck to the bandwidth, even for database-orientated sites ...

    I think people's cost expectations are going to be significantly impacted by the size of this - if it's small, it must be cheap, right ? (wrong, but try telling them...)

    Fantastic acheivement, btw, kudos to the man in blue :-)

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Scale and costs by stevesliva · · Score: 5, Informative

      No exact dimensions, but there are some photos here.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    2. Re:Scale and costs by Rhys · · Score: 1

      So exactly how many processors was your database ment to run on? 128? More? Did it expect each CPU to have more than about 32-64M of memory?

      BG/L is looking like a great supercomputer, but it probably would make a truly sucky anything-else-server.

      --
      Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
    3. Re:Scale and costs by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

      It *is* possible to run a single image across more than one processor (see the latest SGI Linux supercomputer). This one has the advantage of size, though from the photo's it looks more like a cluster architecture than a single-image machine.

      A more feasible route might be to run round-robin DNS to the various nodes in some fashion, to distribute the load. Instant high-availability for even heavily loaded sites.

      Yes, I'd expect a damn sight more RAM per node than 64M. Why on earth put only 64M on a node - they're hardly the costly part of the equation at the moment - 25 for 256Mb at 1-off prices, in the UK. You could probably halve that buying in bulk, and put 512 per node at least.

      Simon.

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    4. Re:Scale and costs by Zapman · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, it says: "even though it occupies a mere half-rack of space". So, that'd be 21U, or 21x1.75in (36.75in x 19in x ~20in (depending on it's depth).

      --
      Zapman
    5. Re:Scale and costs by larkost · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For the vast majority of massively-parallel super-computing tasks 64MB is more than enough. All you are doing is giving the processor a chunk of data, and the small program that you want it to run that chunk through. Only the super-nodes (the ones that control the flow of information) actually have to do anything complicated.

      More memory would be a waste most of the time.

      Most of the challenge in super-computing is now in figuring out how to chop up the workload, and to efficiently deliver it to the processors (and get back the results). It is a very different process from the days of the Cray's (1-3).

    6. Re:Scale and costs by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

      I thought the dominant paradigm was the block synchronous parallel approach ? (Where the nodes run asynch. on their data but synch up on a regular basis). Later variations had "groups" of nodes which could synch up their group and get on rather than wait for the entire node-set to synch. You write the code to be opportunistic, and when sufficent nodes are available for a work unit, that unit is despatched to the group.

      With this paradigm, I don't see why you'd want to restrict the memory per node. The single shared-resource is the interconnect fabric, and if you have larger blocks of data, you get longer delays in-between synch-up for all the nodes within a given group, so freeing the interconnect for other groups.

      The corollary is that the synch-up times mean length grows, of course, but with the node count ballooning as it is, I would have thought the remaining shared resources (interconnect, data-sources, etc.) would be those to be conserved rather than node capacity.

      Simon

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
    7. Re:Scale and costs by Cecil · · Score: 1

      Databases are extremely IO limited, and always have been. There are relatively few floating point operations done in typical database applications. This would be pretty much useless for them.

      A gigantic RAID 1+0 however...

    8. Re:Scale and costs by roine · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Yeah, 64MB should be enough for anybody

    9. Re:Scale and costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Get real. The reason for only having 64MB is that's the size of memory that fits on a single chip. It only has to do with the space requirement. There are supercomputing apps that would make use of larger parcels of memory if they were available. Secondly, this machine only got two teraflops on the Linpack benchmark, which doesn't test memory performance much at all. Who knows how this performs on real memory hog industry apps? This supercomputer, like most, has a limited market and purpose that it's appropriate for.

  6. I agree with Prof. Frink However... by LeninZhiv · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yes, this is amazing--but I predict that in ten more years computers will be twice as fast, ten thousand times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings in Europe will be able to aford one.

    1. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so like $10ish?

    2. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by mantera · · Score: 4, Interesting



      Kings in Europe are no longer Rich... at least not compared to US tycoons.

    3. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by Hieronymus+Howard · · Score: 1, Interesting

      only the five richest kings in Europe will be able to aford one.

      A bit offtopic, but there are only four kings in Europe - those of Norway, Sweden, Belgium and Spain.

      HH
      --

    4. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by edgar_is_good · · Score: 1

      Although the earlier post would still be correct if the reference is to a time when Charles is king of England.

    5. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, what about the UK, Denmark, and the Netherlands? Also Monaco has a prince and Luxembourg a Grand Duke. Lichtenstein and the Holy See are monarchies as well.

    6. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by norkakn · · Score: 1

      How did this get rated insightful? The origional post is a quote from the simpsons for gnu's sake!

    7. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I thought it was a paraphrase of Thomas J. Watson of IBM...

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's both.

    9. Re:I agree with Prof. Frink However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when Charles is king of England

      ...and Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Antigua and Barbuda, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Grenada, Jamaica, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu...

  7. Supercomputing for small business by Vyce · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm awaiting a supercomputer affordable by a small business...something top 100 $30-$60k...then i'll be impressed. Otherwise, it makes no difference to me as I will never get to play with one. *sigh*

    1. Re:Supercomputing for small business by mrtroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you could make something top 100 for 30-60k, it wouldnt be top 100 for long. Because then other people would pay 200k for something twice as fast.

      You can either choose price, or speed, but not both. So do you want something for 30-60k? Or do you want something top 100?

      Your small business should take some economics :) Then maybe you wouldnt be so small anymore. Maybe you are choosing the price AND quantity you are selling...

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
    2. Re:Supercomputing for small business by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      >>Maybe you are choosing the price AND quantity you are selling... Yes, he is. Unless he's a perfect competition, he has choice in quantity and can affect the price.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    3. Re:Supercomputing for small business by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      He can choose the price and quantity he PRODUCES

      Sorry for the confusion, but i was implying quantity demanded. (quantity he sells)

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
  8. new supercomputing challenge by kjba · · Score: 1

    The next logical step in this direction would be the challenge of building a supercomputer with the size of a cell-phone. Go IBM!

    1. Re:new supercomputing challenge by Angram · · Score: 1

      If they were that small, you'd have to attatch it to a tire or something like they do with gas station keys to keep someone from pocketing it, I suppose.

      --

      GL
    2. Re:new supercomputing challenge by mrtroy · · Score: 1

      HAHAHAHAHA

      Try pissing holding onto a gas station key with its tire, and your cellphone sized supercomputer with a boulder attached to it.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
  9. ugh. by fishnuts · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Maybe quoting submissions "verbatim" isn't such a good idea. I nearly went into convulsions trying to parse that submission.

    Letting things like that get through makes the slashdot front page look a bit less "intelligent." What kind of demographic are we catering to again?

    1. Re:ugh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you just need to learn proper English.

  10. PERSONAL SUPERCOMPUTER by TLouden · · Score: 1

    in [insert year]. It's possible when you're with IBM. I'm thinking this is a great opportunity for IBM to take hold of an exciting new market, personal supercomputers.

    --
    -Tim Louden
    1. Re:PERSONAL SUPERCOMPUTER by 68k+geek · · Score: 0, Redundant

      'Super computer' is a relative term. In 1970's (or even later) terms, most of us already have a 'personal supercomputer'

    2. Re:PERSONAL SUPERCOMPUTER by grub · · Score: 2, Informative


      Cray made the Cray EL series from '94-'97, they were a "deskside" computer. See here for more info.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:PERSONAL SUPERCOMPUTER by sketerpot · · Score: 1
      Pfeh, that'll never work. Let's fob the software off on... [closes eyes, extends finger, and whirls around] Microsoft!

      What kind of a name is that?

    4. Re:PERSONAL SUPERCOMPUTER by TLouden · · Score: 1

      OR, maybe I'll keep a super computer running on hydrogen fuel cells and solar power in my car with broadband radio signals and 3D translucent sreen glasses, a pair of input gloves, and a battery pack on my end so that I can quickly solve just about any problem (where's the DMV? how do you say 'screw you' in spanish? what's the answer to life again, i just keep forgeting.) Then I'll... O hell, it's my dream, what concern is it of yours?

      --
      -Tim Louden
  11. The real quiestion is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real question is when are they going to make televisions that can fit into the space of a supercomputer, replacing endless hours of number crunching with endless hours of quality entertainment?

  12. impressive, but is it as impressive as it sounds? by awb131 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you read the press release, they claim that previous 2 teraflop machines fill up entire rooms, with more than a dozen racks. I'm not so sure this is the case: for instance, Apple claims 798 gigaflops to a rack with the Xserve; by my reckoning that works out to needing 2.5 racks to get 2 teraflops. And that's just with dual 1.3 GHz G4 CPUs; I'd imagine there is an upcoming Xserve rev featuring dual 2.0 GHz G5's.

    Don't get me wrong, it's still an impressive achievement (especially if it uses as much less power as claimed.)

    --
    "There is no night so forlorn, no mood so bleak, that it cannot be infused with pleasure by tender meat..." - R.W. Apple
  13. Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravda by heironymouscoward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Take your standard technology curve (aka Moore's Law), take any specification/cost point, then move ahead an arbitrary point in time and wonders of wonders, it costs less and is smaller and does more.

    Yes, one day supercomputers will fit into your wristwatch! What's more, they already do! If you use an ancient measure from, say, 50 years ago.

    It's very disappointing to see technology always reduced to whizz-bang figures that are in fact meaningless. What about the impact on our society? What about the capability for good and for bad? What do "good" and "bad" mean, anyhow? How do I know I even exist? What does "I" even mean?

    Now, that kind of stuff is worth discussing.

    OK, go ahead and mod me as a troll now, if you can't think of an intelligent answer.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
  14. mini-super vs. true-super by peter303 · · Score: 1

    A true-super is when you through all your resources into computer and make something as fast as possible. These are typically space and power consumption hogs. After a new line of supers has been investigated for a while, then a slightly slower, but much resource friendly version is produced. By the time the 2-teraflop Blues ship, frontier supercomputing will be in the 100 gflop range.
    We went through this process in the late 1980s with the cray-clones, crayettes, etc. You got like a fifth of a power of Cray (i.e. a two year old Cray) for like 1/20th the price. A Cray required a custom refirigeration unit, while Crayettes ran in ordinary computer rooms.

    1. Re:mini-super vs. true-super by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      By the time the 2-teraflop Blues ship, frontier supercomputing will be in the 100 gflop range.
      a) 100 Gflop < 2 Tflop.
      b) they're scaling the proof-of-concept 2Tflop one up to 360 Tflop, so even if you meant "frontier supercomputing will be in the 100 Tflop range", your frontier is still 3.6 times worse than theirs.
    2. Re:mini-super vs. true-super by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when you through

      THROW

  15. Who cares... by FatSean · · Score: 1

    I mean, historically technology makes life easier for people. Of course, at the expense of lost and shifted jobs.

    --
    Blar.
  16. SHOCK! by RMH101 · · Score: 5, Funny
    computers get/smaller faster!

    In other news, the price of petrol increases.

    1. Re:SHOCK! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever wonder how many people using internation english dialects are actually Americans doing it to sound worldly?

    2. Re:SHOCK! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was wondering the exact same thing, actually.

  17. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What about the impact on our society? What about the capability for good and for bad? What do "good" and "bad" mean, anyhow? How do I know I even exist? What does "I" even mean?"

    Impact is good in some respects and bad in others. Both cababilities exist. Good=helps me, bad=hurts me. Pinch yourself. "I" is the capital version of the 9th letter in the alphabet, or a one letter reference to your memories and thought processes contained in your physical body assuming it exists.

  18. Sprinkler by Gandalf_De_Grijze · · Score: 1

    I'm interested in what is contained in the IBM confidential trash box on top of the shelf:-)
    By the way, why do they use a sprinkler system in a computer room??????

    1. Re:Sprinkler by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's likely not a sprinkler system. I know of many computer rooms that deploy fire-retarding gas from ceiling-mounted nozzles. Nice and toxic too.

    2. Re:Sprinkler by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      ...cause with so many cables, there's bound to be a fire

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    3. Re:Sprinkler by xrayspx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Many computer rooms use sprinklers. Halon is largely illegal now and many fire system contractors won't deal with it even if it is there.

      We have a "dry" system, where you have to break 2 heads in separate zones for the system to flood, the room has to be almost 200F for water to actually flow.

      Since the pipes are dry normally, it doesn't hurt at all if you accidentally wipe out a sprinkler head with a relay rack, or rip a pipe down in the ceiling. The rest of the building will be deeply engulfed in flame, and the computers will have already melted from ambient heat before the water system in that room kicks in.

      In fact, my guess has always been that the reality, even with halon, is that halon/foam doesn't do you any good when the rest of the building falls down on top of your spiffy computer room.

      The problem is, what happens if there's a LOCALIZED fire in that room. What if the PDU explodes into a million sparking pieces. What if the UPS explodes, bad things could happen. Of course, in either of those cases, the "bad things" would include probably sending a fairly deadly spike into the machines, frying them to the point that we don't care if the water is flowing or not.

    4. Re:Sprinkler by and+by · · Score: 1

      There are options other than Halon. I'd look into Inergen. It takes more room than does Halon for tank storage, but it works well.

    5. Re:Sprinkler by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The biggest problem with Inergen is "dump time." You need more of it and typically need some sort of powered dump mechanism to achieve agent deployment in the sub-10-second range required by many jurisdictions.

      We went with FM-200. No dump problems, a non-lethal agent and no cleanup mess. Two of the three things Inergen has going for it.

      Yes, I do realize that Inergen is also a "green" agent while FM-200 is (arguably) not - but the cost and problems involved simply didn't allow Inergen to make the cut.

      -AC

    6. Re:Sprinkler by ChrisLeif · · Score: 1

      http://www.e1.greatlakes.com/fm200/jsp/index.jsp

      FM200 is in every datacenter that I know that cares about equipment/data. Halon is illegal, water is unthinkable.

  19. Cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    does this mean that someday my desktop will fit in a wristwatch???

    just spectaclating

  20. Laws of physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At the speeds these things operate, the time it takes for any signal to propagate is important - hence smaller is faster.

  21. Size not accurate by bigjnsa500 · · Score: 1

    I just checked out the pictures of this machine. Since when does 5 racks equal a 30 inch TV? Or even for that matter, ONE rack?

    --
    This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
    1. Re:Size not accurate by bigjnsa500 · · Score: 1

      Oops... I saw the pictures for the complete Blue Gene set to be built for Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

      --
      This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
  22. Super PCs? by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    Maybe they made some deal with Micro$oft so they would have the only computer that can run Longhorn...

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Super PCs? by Rocketman56 · · Score: 1

      Cute, but very wrong.. BlueGene is built around a variant of the PowerPC family.. Linux is the only OS currently installed. (AIX has been discussed, but..)

    2. Re:Super PCs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could reboot so fast, you wouldn't even notice!

      Bill Gates,"We have finally solved all bugs, it was the hardware."

  23. Can't be all that bad by B1ackDragon · · Score: 1

    I tend to agree, though I think overall this will have some pretty good ramifications. It furthers the increase in user-available computing power, cost and size wise I'm sure. I think because of this we'll see "real" advances in user level computing, not like this photon-light based computer stuff or this quantum computer stuff (which may be a hoax for all I know... :-)

    Anyway, I'm sure someone once questioned the purpose of "desktop" computers. Who needs those? Besides, we might need a computer just like this to run Office 2007 someday.

    --
    The snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches. -- ee cummings
  24. Supercomputers in a tower case... by dJCL · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Supercomputers _do_ fit into a tower case. 10 years ago the power that I ship our the door on any given day was unheard of. Tomorrow you will be able to buy a system that has Terahertz in a normal beige box... And you will get a couple of hundred thousand FPS in your quake 3 benchmarks, and about 3 FPS in the newest games.

    --
    On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
    1. Re:Supercomputers in a tower case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tomorrow you will be able to buy a system that has Terahertz in a normal beige box...

      Bet you a million dollars?

    2. Re:Supercomputers in a tower case... by inode_buddha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True; another poster has noted that power is relative. I love the setup I have now, and I'm amazed that I got anything done in 1983.

      --
      C|N>K
    3. Re:Supercomputers in a tower case... by calyphus · · Score: 2, Funny

      just say no to beige

      --


      The potato it is uninformed.
    4. Re:Supercomputers in a tower case... by Dylan_t_p · · Score: 2, Funny

      you may have beige but not I :) silver maybe, but I'd rather keep my 300fps in quake than have a beige box

    5. Re:Supercomputers in a tower case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Tomorrow you will be able to buy a system that has Terahertz in a normal beige box...

      Two Points:

      1. Who wants a " normal beige box"anymore.. It's just so 80's and

      2.Considering that a Dual 2GHz Apple costs $3000 USD I don't think it will be tomorrow... or any time soon... try pricing out a Dual 64bit x86 box... that's prohibitive even for the average corporation, not to mention the (not so) average home user

      Sure, the power we have today makes us all wonder how the hell we did things on a 33Mhz box... but supercomputers in a tower case... maybe in about 3 years...

  25. What about distributed apps? by Pedrito · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not a big fan of super computers. I mean, it's kind of cool, but to me, it's just throwing a whole bunch of computers at the problem, more or less.

    That being the case, why aren't distributed apps considered as part of the Super Computer list? I mean, SETI@Home has got to be far and away, #1 in terms of computing power. Granted, it's not in 1 integrated piece of hardware, and Berkeley doesn't own all the hardware, but I still think these things ought to be considered, at least to make it more realistic about who actually has the most computing power.

    Just my little rant.

    1. Re:What about distributed apps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Latency. Read a book or take a class in parallel programming and you may see how shortsighted your argument is.

  26. Bad joke... by breon.halling · · Score: 2, Funny

    Would sales tax on these things be called a "Blue Gene Levy"? Hahahaha. Horrible, I know. ;)

    --
    "Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
    1. Re:Bad joke... by igny · · Score: 1

      Oh i get it, it refers to Blue Jeans Levi's.

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    2. Re:Bad joke... by breon.halling · · Score: 1
      --
      "Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
  27. 30" TV? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many 30" TVs to the VW Beetle?

    And how many Libraries of Congress of data will this hold?

  28. Many years ago Cray... by rarose · · Score: 4, Insightful

    was already having to figure the propagation delay of signals (traveling at near the speed of light) into their large multirack systems. I can only imagine one of things driving the desire for smaller supercomputers is to speed up the clock by reducing the delay across the physical size of the box.

    --
    --Rob
    1. Re:Many years ago Cray... by Krach42 · · Score: 1

      My computer architecture teacher said that Cray has always been driven by the speed-of-light. Literally, they couldn't be overclocked, or the signals wouldn't be there in time to use them.

      Thus, Crays could only get faster by decreasing the size.

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    2. Re:Many years ago Cray... by fgodfrey · · Score: 2
      The only reason you can overclock a commodity processor is that the manufacturers are either a) selling you a faster part underclocked or b) are being extremely conservative about the speeds to improve their yield.
      A Cray is basically "overclocked" (or, more accurately, clocked to the theoretical max) when we ship it.


      Decreasing size is certainly a very good way to increase clock rate. Making a machine faster, however, usually involves more than just the clock rate including:

      - changing chip fab technology

      - putting more processor pipes in the processor

      - increasing cache size, etc...

      Cray (and I suspect most of our competition) uses basically every trick in the book to get the next machine faster than the current machine.

      --
      Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
    3. Re:Many years ago Cray... by rarose · · Score: 1

      Forest,
      Can you share how long the the typical Cray development cycle for a machine design is? I suspect it's a hell of a lot longer than the 6 to 12 months that commodity processor crowd have...

      --
      --Rob
    4. Re:Many years ago Cray... by fgodfrey · · Score: 1

      I can't really answer that exactly, but yes, it's a lot longer than the commodity processor crowd. Then again, a typical Cray upgrade is "everything" (memory, interconnect, system bus, processor, etc) whereas the 6 to 12 month cycle on processors seems to usually be just the processor.

      --
      Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
  29. this is strange... by mantera · · Score: 1, Redundant


    I submitted this story 10 days ago, November 14, 2003, the day IBM published their press release online, almost verbatim as i quoted the same material, and it was rejected!!

    Not only that this strikes me as old news, but its publication now completely baffles me.

    1. Re:this is strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You must be new here. Let me welcome you to slashdot. As you've first hand noticed we prefer to wait a few days to report the news. This give us enough time to check, double check, and finally ignore all facts. If you really would like to have a submission, refrase a hot topic that was submiited earlier in the week/day and resubmit it.

      You may also notice that no one reads the linked articles. This is simply because reading the articles leads to redundant education. As you have no doubt already witnessed we have no use for further education as we all aready know everthing. But of course you already knew that if you're here.

    2. Re:this is strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sucks, man. /. is weird.

    3. Re:this is strange... by mantera · · Score: 1


      Well, that's it for me; i won't be wasting my time again submitting stories to slashdot.

  30. where is this list anyway? by amnesiaWind · · Score: 1

    so where is this list of the most powerful supercomputers? i'd like to see it...

    1. Re:where is this list anyway? by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      here you go
      http://www.top500.org/

    2. Re:where is this list anyway? by milgr · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      Where law ends, tyranny begins -- William Pitt
  31. gee by b17bmbr · · Score: 1, Redundant

    technology is getting faster and better and cheaper. damn. who'da thunk it.

    --
    My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    1. Re:gee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to ask Saddam Hussein how to hide from the IRS....

    2. Re:gee by glwtta · · Score: 1

      Actually, I am not seeing cheaper - faster and better (pretty much the same thing in this case), but no so much cheaper.

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
    3. Re:gee by b17bmbr · · Score: 1

      a few years ago, i purchased a p120/16mb ram acer for abotu $1500. it wasn't top of the line at the time either. now, i can get a far more comparatively powerful box for half that. so yes, the actual dollar amount has dropped.

      --
      My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
  32. Yay! by fishnuts · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Nevermind. Mister Editor fixed it.

  33. Pravda by heironymouscoward · · Score: 1

    ...assuming it exists.

    Good going until this point. :)

    If Darwin was right, we're just replicators, the concept of "I" is a trick of perspective created by our minds in order to improve our performance, and intelligence is limited by the awareness horizon that, once we cross, we realize it's all a big joke and we self-destruct. Philosophically speaking, of course.

    Sigh. At least we'll be able to buy brain-sized supercomputers to replace our auto-anihilating intelligence organs.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
    1. Re:Pravda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should we self-destruct if we thought "it" (whatever "it" is) was a big joke? I like funny things. Sounds better than thinking "it" is a vale of tears leading to the grave, and most people don't commit suicide when they realise that.

    2. Re:Pravda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I said "assuming it exists" because theoretically we could all be programs or something I can't even imagine. Our memories and thought processes exist and the word "I" represents them, whether they are stored in a computer, a biological entity, or anything else.

      Interesting take on the fact that "I" is a trick for better performance, but not quite right. We define not just ourselves, but everything as objects. For instance, we see words as objects, so you can read a sentence with the letters of the words mixed up as long as the first and last letters are the same for each word.

      So really, the ability to define things we sense as objects lets us interact easier with them and thus increases our abilities and performance, but it does not only apply to "I".

    3. Re:Pravda by Reckless+Visionary · · Score: 1

      I think it has been convincingly argued that we (individuals) are actually vehicles for replicators, the replicator being the genetic material itself.

      --
      I think I'll stop here.
    4. Re:Pravda by Reckless+Visionary · · Score: 1

      Um, I have no idea how you think that my comment implied we don't have choice. I'm pretty sure I just said that we aren't replicators, our DNA is. That doesn't prevent you from doing or not doing anything.

      --
      I think I'll stop here.
    5. Re:Pravda by 2short · · Score: 1


      Your DNA does not want anything. If you impregnate every hot chick you see, there's a better chance that rough copies of your DNA will be around in the future. Your DNA might have something to do with your desire to impregnate hot chicks, and that effect might get passed on to your descendants, whereas the "don't impregnat hot chicks" gene is less likely to get passed on, and thus... well, you know, naturla selection, evolution, etc.
      But your DNA does not want anything, and evolution works anyway. It can't because it's inanimate. Whether or not YOU can want anything and whether it matters seems to be the philosophical blind alley this thread is wandering into, but it has nothing to do with evolution, or whether Darwin was right. (I say "blind alley" because while the question of free will seems fantastically important, there's no real answer, so you wind up talking about it as long as you want, or maybe even writing big boring books about it, but at some point you just realize it doesn't actually matter, and you get on with your life)

  34. Small = Dense = More power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work on the project.

    We're packing 1024 compute nodes (each node having two CPU cores) into a rack. The nodes are small and based on the PowerPC 440, with beefed up floating point. It has to be air cooled - water is a PITA.

    The finished machine will still be quite large - 64 racks with miles of cables. And that doesn't count disk drives. There isn't a single disk drive on the thing - the customer provides the filesystem, which will also be another beefy set of machines. It requires a new building.

    The machine featured in the article is just half a rack. It is still respectable, coming in at #73 on top500.org. Might be quite useful for business and small scale scientific in it's current form. (This is far more than my alma matter had access too.)

    1. Re:Small = Dense = More power by EinarH · · Score: 1
      A question:
      The original artilces from AP (news.yahoo.com and many other places) mentioned something about the walls/sides being tilted 17 degrees to speed up airflow. True or just a hoax?
      Can you comment on that or is this covered by your NDA?

      Thanks in advance.

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  35. Thats one hell of a P0rn server by mustangsal66 · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's one hell of a p0rn server. Now compile apache, and connect to a pair of DS-3s...

    hmm... how many Counterstrike servers will it run at the same time...

    (Note: The above is meant to be foolish and meaningless. Any other interpritation is pure coincidence. The names have been changes to protect the inocent)

    --
    Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
    Sig changed for readability by G.W.
    1. Re:Thats one hell of a P0rn server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      hmm... how many Counterstrike servers will it run at the same time...

      I'm not sure, but a buddy of mine at IBM says it can actually run Doom 3 at 30fps!

  36. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >It's very disappointing to see technology always reduced to whizz-bang figures that are in fact meaningless. What about the impact on our society? What about the capability for good and for bad? What do "good" and "bad" mean, anyhow? How do I know I even exist? What does "I" even mean?

    Dude, since the answer to the ultimate question is "42", we need all the power we can to compute that ultimate question.

    Only then will you get an answer to "What does 'I' even mean?"

  37. Re:impressive, but is it as impressive as it sound by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree entirely! It can't be kewl unless it's made by Apple! All hail!

  38. We hear from them only during development ... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

    Humanity has been developing Super Computers for the last 50 years. We only hear from them when they are developing them. For the time they finish it, it's allmost obsolete. They prommise that the machine is going to make a revolution in science, but after that the computer is just sold to the army to research how to destroy small countrys in a cost-effective way, or dedicated to some obscure research that never gives out any results. And, since the price of this things is just a delirium, just a few privileged ones can have use one for their research.
    I think there is a more logic, more upgradeable, more cheap and scalable solution, which is Clustering / Parallel Computing.
    It's scalable, you can start with to machines, and keep adding more to fit your needs, use a few PII to run quake and john the ripper, or you can have a real environment for use on research, achieving allmost the same funcionality that with supercomputers, but with the advantage that you created it with available hardware that you can buy anywhere, allmost anyone can afford one, just different size of the network and different bandwith will make the difference, and more important, you can upgrade it easily whenever you want.
    I think we should be developing and improving this kind of solution FOR EVERYONE, and not spending millions to develope something that just a few ones will have.
    BTW, who wants them to be smaller? : )

    --
    WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    1. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by vidarh · · Score: 1
      Almost all modern "supercomputers" ARE clusters, and quite a lot of them ARE upgradable, and ARE sufficient for the needs they are intended for, and have plenty of reuse opportunities once they are done.

      If you think they aren't making a revolution in science, try actually researching what these machines have been used for.

      As for upgrade paths, look for instance to the recent announcements regarding SGI's single system image super computer sold to NASA, which started out at 128 CPU's was quickly upgraded to 256, and then again to 512.

      The problem with loosely coupled clustering solutions is that for many problems it's incredibly hard to parallelise the software well enough without I/O eating up all your gains.

      And if you don't realise who wants them to be smaller, you have never been involved with hosting a system of any size. Rack space is expensive, whether you rent it or operate it yourself.

    2. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by Frodo2002 · · Score: 1

      I hear you. But the same thing happens with all research in the U.S. Take the ITER fusion project. Its going to cost a bomb and for what? So that the U.S. can have a "cheap" unlimited source of power which no third world country in the world can afford because of its technological complexity. Yet there is an unlimited source of energy right outside my window. Its called the "sun". Sad.

    3. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      even funnier, the Sun a fusion reactor: already working, past break even point, with a few years (a few BILLION years) free fuel supply thrown in

    4. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 0

      That's true.
      But we have powersources they don't have: Natural ones (Rivers, oil ...) and i still see them trying to steel that from us with wars, corrupt finger-choiced governments, government takedowns, "food for oil projects", and destroying people minds with TV,mc donalds, drugs and action movies so they can't defend what belongs to them

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    5. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by MoralHazard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I think we should be developing and improving this kind of solution FOR EVERYONE, and not spending millions to develope something that just a few ones will have."

      What's this "we", white man? Are you a supercomputer developer? Because, I mean, if Seymour Cray rose from the grave, got a slashdot account, and wrote your post, I would believe that you have a point. But he didn't, so you don't.

      "Supercomputers", a set which today includes the supercluster computers along with traditional supers (like Cray's stuff), generally stay in service for a hell of a lot longer than your average desktop PC. There's iron in military labs and DOD facilities left over from spending bills that Reagan signed, still doing useful computing work today. The fact that it's not the FASTEST and BESTEST machine in existence doesn't mean that it's not still useful.

      You forget that a computer becoming obsolete doesn't mean that the computer gets any slower. A super is at least as fast on the day it's decommissioned as the day it was first booted.

      The fact that the price has dropped somewhat is irrelevant. Today, I can buy a desktop PC for $2500 with the computing power of a DEC mini that cost $10 million in 1982 (~). But in 1982, that amount of computing power was WORTH $10 million (again, ~), because computing power was so scarce. Or are you saying that they should've waited until the price came down before buying? Because if they did, they would never be able to buy, because prices are always coming down.

      If I have a computing need that can only be addressed by a super, and I have the money (or I can get the money) and believe that the computer is worth it, who are you to say shit? You don't have supercomputer-level needs--you have DESKTOP level needs. So go buy a desktop, overclock it, and live with the fact that you can't afford the fastest computers known to man.

    6. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by Strioa · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I agree with the other replies. But there is another point I would like to make. The computer that you have now is the result of the research that went in the development of those super computers of the last 50 years.

      It's the research that trickles down that can at some point provide solutions FOR EVERYONE(well not everyone at the same time). This is so obvious, it should'nt even have to be explained.

      I mean, where do you think technology comes from. Come on, I have a Palm that has 75 times the clock speed of my first computer. This didn't come ex-nihilo. Huge expensive projects pushed the limits of computing and the resulting advances, combined with other developments in all branches of sciences and smaller projects in computing, made it possible.

      And how do you think Parallel/Distributed computing came about? What do you even think a supercomputer is?

      Remember the ENIAC, now look at a calculator. How's that for a solution for EVERYONE!

      And the computers aren't obsolete when they come out!! They're no longer the fastest, but they aren't close to obsolete by any sense of the word.

      That dosen't mean, however that technology is then available justly to anyone, but that dosen't have anything to do with it.

      Don't mean to be rude, but this is really basic applied science.

      Strioa

    7. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by valkraider · · Score: 1

      But where do we get our power at night?

    8. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use all the power available to you during the day to store the energy somewhere.

    9. Re:We hear from them only during development ... by valkraider · · Score: 1

      But then where do we get power for the daytime? This is all too confusing... Lets just invade Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, and Norway and be done with it...

  39. Blue Gene by Quiberon · · Score: 2, Informative

    You can find most of what you want to know on IBM Research or US Department of Energy (search for bluegene). I think both can survive slashdotting.

  40. Top 500 Supercomputers by arrogance · · Score: 2, Informative
  41. HANDHELD SUPERCOMPUTER by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    Is that a super computer in your pocket, or are you just really glad to see me?

  42. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by j_dot_bomb · · Score: 1

    This system was designed for low power consumption. I believe the clock speed was intentionally lowered to have a higher speed/power ratio per processor. The reason for this is that power usage over lifetime of the system can be more than hardware costs. This makes for a lower cost per speed-lifetime unit. They made important technical changes in design.

    What this extra speed is used for is important. But it is a separate issue.

  43. Self-destruction, a field-test by heironymouscoward · · Score: 1

    Hmmm, since we're on a serious but enjoyable tangent here, I'll take your question and double it.

    The "self-destruction" is implicit in the surrender of the "I". By definition.

    However, that is neither good nor bad, since these terms can't even be defined without recourse to the "self" we've just destroyed.

    The temporary collection of genes that has registered under the Slashdot alias of HeironymousCoward, and which we can abbreviate as "I" for the purposes of discussion, thinks that what is left after destruction of the "self" is in fact a very harmonious situation.

    With no "I" (except in Slashdot, where we can all agree that an alias "exists", representing Karma points, a journal, and many slanderous comments that will haunt the replicator in question until its disintegration), there is also no blame or responsibility beyond the genetic obligation to replicate. Further, there is no need to reflect or plan except when reflection and planning are the natural and easy thing to do.

    (I would interject deliciously self-destructive the observation that "conscious decisions" are made about 0.5 seconds after most acts.)

    The destruction of the self is therefore not just inevitable as we move towards a deeper understanding of how we (and this replicator uses the term loosely) function, but it is also highly desirable, because it frees us. This replicator cannot say what such freedom brings, but after about 30 minutes of experiencing it, "I" have to report that it is, on the whole, enjoyable.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
  44. Imagine by AnonymousCowmilk · · Score: 0, Redundant

    JUST imagine a beo...Ah fsckit! This isn't funny anymore. Was it ever?

  45. Difficult to program by nimrod_me · · Score: 3, Informative
    These new supercomputers are all massively parallel systems. They work well for specialized numerical algorithms and were designed with these algorithms in mind.

    It is much more difficult to use them for most applications most of us can think of. For example, VLSI CAD software (simulation/analysis/synthesis) is very compute intesive. However, these systems usually do not even take advantage of the multiple CPUs in a typical general purpose SMP system. You have to manually partition designs and sometimes loose the advantages of global optimization.

    So don't run and order your new Blue Gene yet :)

  46. When they build one called by Boyceterous · · Score: 1

    Multivac, can I be the Voter?

  47. No, I'm New Here by New+Here · · Score: 0

    No, I'm New Here

  48. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Did you have Greenlee?

  49. Small Size Critical As Speed Increases. by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why do we need to have small, power-efficient supercomputers? Isn't the main goal of the supercomputer to be fast as hell? Granted, if this can be achieved while simultaneously minimizing power and size then by all means go for it. However, as stated by my parent, what sacrafices are being made?

    The increase in speed is related to the reduction in size.

    For a moment, let's pretend that electricity within a wire travels at the speed of light.

    Now, let's pretend that we wish to carry pulses of electricity from one end of the computer to the other at a very high speed.

    At some point, the distance the signal has to travel will become significant to the speed of the computer.

    This is already happening in PCs. If you take a close look at the motherboard in your computer, chances are you'll see weird places where the traces just zig-zag back and forth (notice the angles on them, that's not by accident either, but I'm not going to try to explain a fourth-year university course in microwave and RF design here). These zig-zags add length to the traces so that they have the same length as other traces within the same bus, and all the signals on that bus arrive at the same time. Think of them as being "equal length headers", if you're into the throb of a big-block V8.

    Length of interconnecting wires is non-trivial at this point. Stray capacitance and inductance caused by any conductor are non-trivial at this point. As a result, a terrific limiting factor to the speed of a computer is now its size.

    Power consumption is also related. Modern ICs are made of millions of MOSFET transistors which behave as switches. These switches are not perfect: during the transition between a logic high and a logic low, the transistors spend time in the linear state where they are resistive. As a result, they waste energy as heat.

    Stray capacitance and inductance - even within the junctions of the transistors themselves - slow their ability to switch instantaneously. As a result, they must be made as small as possible to reduce capacitance (C) and inductance (L).

    This also explains why newer generations of a processor can run faster than their predecessors: smaller and smaller features on the IC mean less stray C and L, which means that the transistors can switch states faster, which means that they spend less time in the linear state and therefore heat up less. This means less energy wasted as heat.

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
    1. Re:Small Size Critical As Speed Increases. by s00p41337h4x0r · · Score: 1

      These zig-zags add length to the traces so that they have the same length as other traces within the same bus, and all the signals on that bus arrive at the same time... Power consumption is also related... Stray capacitance and inductance...slow their ability to switch instantaneously.

      Perhaps now is a reasonable time to mention asynchronous computing. Instead of running a whole system with a single synchronize() block, each of the logical sections synchronizes with it's own producers and consumers. Computation occurs as soon as the required data is available, which yields average-time performance, instead of every piece of silicon waiting for the slowest one on the chip. Furthermore, if a chunk of transistors isn't being used it's not powered, which means less power consumption and less heat dissipation.

      It's still a research problem, but businesses are looking in to it.

  50. What does NEED mean? by John+Harrison · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I would bet that many institutions could find a good use for a supercomputer. Airlines, for example, use them to come up with flight schedules and crew lists. Faster computers give them more flexibility. They can recalculate the schedule at will.

    If supercomputers were ubiquitous, more uses would be found. So I don't see how "need" comes into the picture. Now who can afford one? That is a good question. If they were affordable you'd see needs popping up all over.

  51. Miniaturization by resident_troll · · Score: 1

    I RTFA and I think this is really good stuff. However, doesn't it stand to reason that this is just the natural progression of things? For years we've worked towards miniaturization and it seems logical that hardware developers would continue to try pushing the envelope for new systems designs and architectures. It will be amazing to see how much power can be crammed in to a shoebox sized device within the next twenty years.

    --
    Illiud Latine dici non potest
  52. The wait is over by Nuclear_Loser · · Score: 4, Funny

    Finally a computer exists that can easily fit in my apartment with enough power to play Doom III at 30 fps.

    --


    You've got 8% of my love - 8% of my love - 8/100's of the time you're the only girl I'm dreaming of.
  53. The more things change... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think it's hilarious that we still talk in terms of computers taking up a mere half a tennis court. Once upon a time, computers took up an entire room - and they still do.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:The more things change... by EinarH · · Score: 2, Interesting
      By definition a supercomputer is a computer or machine that can solve problems that an ordinary computer can't solve.

      So you won't se supercomputer under your desk simply because as long as there is space it's possible to build a larger computer that do things that your computer can't do.

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  54. BlueGene/L presentation by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Informative

    This set of sldes compares some of the architecture of the BlueGene/L to other ASCI machines.

  55. Old OLD news.... by TheProteus · · Score: 2, Informative

    Seems to me there was once a guy named Seymour, who could do the fast *and* small thing quite well. Since we're talking in terms of Televisions...

    Big screen #1

    40" HDTV and a A size perspective

    We have DEFINITELY been down this road before folks. I don't see why it's so hard to do this, unless you're using COTS components. Hence, the point of "engineering" - not cramming a bunch of stuff in boxes/packages into bigger boxes and packages.

    --

    Detachment 3 Media
    Exposed, Exploited, Exploded

  56. Re:impressive, but is it as impressive as it sound by Sumocide · · Score: 1

    798 Gflops in an imaginary application taking full advantage of SIMD in every clockcycle and never needs to flush cache or even access RAM.

  57. Queens [n/t] by CyberDruid · · Score: 1

    entee

    --

    Opinions stated are mine and do not reflect those of the Illuminati

  58. what about laptop superclusters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i agree... if you can afford xxx million dollar computer, housing and power shouldn't be an issue...

    if it's really a problem... why not string 10,000 laptops together?

    or how about a super cluster of Palms ?

  59. Any bets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    on an Apple Jean? (think Lisa)

  60. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2130?

  61. Wait till they "upsize" it. by kabocox · · Score: 3, Informative

    This one little computer is small and efficent and all the waste heat easily taken care of. Now imagine not just one of these, but a whole building of these. Our heat problem crops right back up.

    IBM knows what it is doing.

  62. Distributed apps aren't the problem by roystgnr · · Score: 3, Informative

    That being the case, why aren't distributed apps considered as part of the Super Computer list?

    Most of the tasks you pick a supercomputer for aren't things you can cut up into a thousand chunks and let every computer finish it's chunk of the problem independently. In particular, the benchmarks (LINPACK) that determine who goes where on that supercomputer list generally measure a computer's performance at big linear algebra problems (which are what takes up most of the compute time for huge classes of real problems), and for those problems every node needs to share results with many other nodes after essentially every iteration: this means you need high bandwidth and very low latency connecting the nodes.

    Now, the supercomputer benchmarks may make things worse than they have to be: according to this they're measuring performance on dense matrices (where every node needs to talk to every other node), whereas many real world problems can be discretized into very sparse matrices (where each node only has to talk directly to a few of the others) instead - still, even in the sparse situation you want your computers to be separated by microseconds across your high speed interconnect rather than milliseconds across the low bandwidth internet.

  63. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  64. Why no mention of APPLE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is it that every so-called "supercomputing" article posted to slashdot never mentions Apple. You remember, the company that has pretty much SET THE BAR for clustered supercomputers? Seems to me this IBM stuff is a poor attempt to try to match the amazing price performance of the Apple supercomputer (you know, number THREE in the top-500 list) but it lacks the usability, applications and overall value of the APPLE solution, so why would anyone bother? Honestly, I find it amazing how Apple has continually set the standard in all areas of computing and yet the so-called "techie" slashdot crowd appears to ignore them every time.

    1. Re:Why no mention of APPLE? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot has mentioned the Virginia Tech Supercomputer multiple times... and as far as the slashdot crowed ignoring Apple... nothing could be further from the truth. The Slashdot crowd can be regarded as the epitome of the technology community and yet I hear nothing BUT Apple from this group... especially so within the last 2-3 years. This isn't like the old days were Apple was never appreciated... Apple is very much appreciated by the technology community. The fact that they are thriving in a world dominated by an illegal monopoly shows how above the bar they really are. Imagine how well they'd thrive and how much more recognition they'd get if they weren't working under an illegal monopoly... hmmmmmm... the plot thickens...

  65. make it smaller.... by illumina+us · · Score: 2, Funny

    now just make one that's PDA sized :)

    --
    -illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
  66. Can't compete. by blair1q · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They have no hope of bucking the Earth Simulator and taking the real crown, so they're pretending the rules have changed.

  67. Here is how long you can execpt to wait by DumbSwede · · Score: 2, Informative
    Then your wait should be about 2-4 years, 10 if you want it for $2K or under

    I recently did a search of top500.org which has specs back to June 1993 and up to June 2003

    BTW WHO THE HELL BROKE top500.org!?!? This site used to be easy to use and informative, now it is a banner add hell, that obscures the info you used to be able to get to easily, with many broken links and apologies for works in progress.

    Anyway I digress, the point is that in 1993 the fastest computer was the TMC at Los Alamos with GigaFlops ratings of 59.7 Rmax 131.0 Rpeak
    My Dell XPS today would rate in the top half of fastest machines in the world for 1993 if I'm reading the stats right with just over a GigaFlop of power.

    Todays fastest machine is Japan's Earth Simulator rated at 35860 Rmax 40960 Rpeak

    If we define a super computer as the ability to get in the top500 then 245.1 Rmax 384.0 are the numbers that indicate your machine would be a super computer by 2003 standards.

  68. I want one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    But then I always want one.

  69. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by TGK · · Score: 1

    I is a word, a metaphysical handle for a concept. That concept is your "self." Now of course, you can't actualize or understand the true nature of your "self" because all that your are, your very intelegence is imprinted with the imperfection of language. Language has, implicit to it, definitions that are both inprecise and imutable.

    "I" then, is a word refering to the reflection of your "self" as seen through the lense of the world you've been conditioned to accept.

    "I" must exist, however, because without someone to QUESTION if "I" exists "I" can not exist. In short, the capability of questioning the existance of "I" cements that very existance.

    Ok... I'm done. Now someone else handle the good and evil part.

    --
    Killfile(TGK)
    No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
  70. Not sacrifices, but pure marketplace tradeoff. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ask yourself: why do you need a supercomputer?

    Answer: To do a very sophisticated simulation that would be too difficult or costly to conduct in real life.

    But if the supercomputer is so expensive to purchase and maintain, it might be easier and cheaper to use CAD and rapid prototyping to make a few doo-dads and knock them into each other for real, as an example.

    So if the supercomputers can't scale with the rest of computing or manufacturing, then no one will buy them (no one who doesn't want to get fired for being thickheaded, at least)

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:Not sacrifices, but pure marketplace tradeoff. by spectre_240sx · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about reputation, though.

      Why do most automobile companies build race cars? It's certainly not for the average buyer. The fact is, when someone sees a car created by a manufacturer that has won the Le Mans 24 Hour race then they'll be more likely to buy it.

    2. Re:Not sacrifices, but pure marketplace tradeoff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do most automobile companies build race cars? It's certainly not for the average buyer.

      Semantic nit, but I'd say it was exactly for the average buyer. Take away the thrill and excitement of the races and the consumers will do the smart thing and take the bus, or use bicycles. It's not just the winner of Le Mans, there is a spillover to anything that resembles the winner, including the competitors.

  71. Efficiency is only half the problem by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Their new Blue Gene family of super computers is meant to be 6 times faster, consume 1/15 of the power and be 1/10 the size of current models.

    While progress in making supercomputers more efficient in terms of power usage and space, the widespread adoption of supercomputers is still really hampered by functionality. The majority of supercomputers are used for modeling, simulations, or code breaking. This limits their usage to academic and government institutions. These break through only help those kinds of institutions afford a super computer. I would think that most businesses have little use for that kind of raw computing power. Their computing bottlenecks are more related to transactions per time as opposed to calculations per time.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    1. Re:Efficiency is only half the problem by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      So you say people who dont need a supercomputer dont need a faster supercomputer. You are really bright :)

      Buisnesses dont have computing bottlenecks, they only have IO and Disc bottlenecks. Even the 700k tpm manchines with 70+ raid channels dont have 100% cpu load...

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  72. Artists' rendition of a deployed cluster at bottom by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    But who cares really what the outside looks like? Really. Couldn't the 3d artist do a cutaway or something? They have pictures of the prototype but there's no sense of scale or anything. I'm not saying it will, but form should not dictate function. And I don't really care for that slanting theme.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  73. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by oconnorcjo · · Score: 1
    It's very disappointing to see technology always reduced to whizz-bang figures that are in fact meaningless. What about the impact on our society? What about the capability for good and for bad? What do "good" and "bad" mean, anyhow? How do I know I even exist? What does "I" even mean?

    I will provide the answers to the important and serious questions posed above; for I believe in providing light where thier is darkness...

    What about the impact on our society? Nothing. It's just a computer dude!

    What about the capability for good and for bad? Nothing. It's just a computer dude!

    What do "good" and "bad" mean, anyhow? I just HOPE you are not expecting a computer to help you answer THAT question!

    How do I know I even exist? I don't know if you exist but if I was to take a guess, you probably don't.

    What does "I" even mean? "You" probably don't "need" an "answer" to this one since "you" probably don't "exist" anyway so the "answer" to "I" should not "bother" "you".

    Now with this new knowledge of morality and metaphysics, go spread the answers amongst the masses.

    --
    I miss the Karma Whores.
  74. Here's an idea: by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Probably lots of people submitted that article. Slashdot editors, not being complete idiots, had the same reaction as a lot of the posters here, to paraphrase: "Shock! IBM makes smaller, faster, clusterable computer!" So they featured this in a group article on the 14th about a bunch of similar articles.

    Later on after about 20 more people submitted it, they gave in and posted it directly. They generally attribute the person who causes them to post it, rather than a group.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  75. Re:impressive, but is it as impressive as it sound by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    798 Gflops in an imaginary application taking full advantage of SIMD in every clockcycle and never needs to flush cache or even access RAM.

    Yeah, just like the 2TF for a BlueGene/L node is an imaginary application that uses MADD in every operation, and never hits RAM.
    That's what theoretical peaks are supposed to be.

  76. Traditional Joke: Imagine a Beowulf cluster of... by HiThere · · Score: 1

    I'm more than half-way serious, though. Just TRY to imagine a Beowuld cluster of these. (Yes, I know it's already a cluster. So are the individual cell columns within your brain.)

    I do think that this is the wrong apporach from the long term, but for now...

    What I see for the long term is some chip maker implementing a complete Beowulf node on a chip. And using a Beowuld bus for the connection lines...though you might design it so that it could link directly to "nearest neighbors" to the four sides (corners probably have too narrow a communication bandwidth... but perhaps allow a full-duplex single-bit channel [two wires] for sync signals). Still, the main connection would be the base link into the beowulf net. Don't concentrate on making these nodes fast. Concentrate on making them low power & heat efficient. So they can be stacked densely.

    (In the next generation all the "nearest neighbors" could be included within the same chip.)

    You would quickly (say two CPU generations) have more CPU power than you can imagine... but control would be a real nightmare.

    So the real need that these new supercomputers are presenting us with is to learn how to control them...so that when the next generation comes around, they can in their turn be controlled usefully. Etc.

    Even a standard architecture doesn't make that an easy job, not unless you want most processors to spend most of their time waiting. Most traditional problems scale atrociously with increased parallelism, and using the algorithms that we know. Even when we know that an algorithm is maily parallel, our languages don't let us specify that. (Consider even just partitioning a vector into the even and odd elements. Now try to express that in C as a parallel algorithm. Now try it in Java, Python, Ruby, Ada, Objective-C,....) I understand why C, C++, and Ada have this problem. I have more difficulty understanding the same problem from Java, Python, and Ruby. Ruby even has an ".each" method built into many language specific classes (arrays, hashes, etc.), but it is explicitly defined as being a sequential operator rather than a potentially parallel one.

    Now I'll grant you that with today's heavy processor switching costs the implementations *should* be sequential. But the language designs should ALLOW the implementation to decide to be parallel if that made sense.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  77. Damn pictures by batura · · Score: 1

    The three or four times /. has covered the Blue Gene, the articles haven't had any useful pictures in them. Its pretty frustrating to read "about the size of a 30-inch tv" and not being able to see what the hell it looks like. If you go to IBM's website, they've got this artists' rendition of a cluster of the things, but my TV-supercomputer is nowhere to be found.

  78. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by aardwolf204 · · Score: 1

    What does "I" even mean?

    italics?

    --
    Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the /.crowd.May ur days b merry & bright & may al
  79. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    OK, go ahead and mod me as a troll now, if you can't think of an intelligent answer.

    Those of us who can think of an intelligent answer are going to mod you down as a troll anyway.

  80. Re:Sigh. Pravda nyet Isvestia, Isvestia nyet Pravd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Ya, except I took it the semester after he retired...

  81. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  82. How does this hit home by superpulpsicle · · Score: 1

    Network is the biggest bottle neck for any home PC.

    If I had a choice between a supercomputer crunching teraflops in my house or a fibre connection to the web.... I'll pick fibre connection any day.

  83. It's about time massive MP was realized by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    They should have been doing this years ago. This is the same thing as taking a massive cluster and shrinking it into a relatively small, optimal, package. IBM finally gets it that massive parallel process is the way of the future. They figured out how much more sence it makes to leverage standard microprocessors.

  84. I'll take two... by theolein · · Score: 1

    in green please.

  85. 'Super' computers vs 'Intelligent' computers by JonKatzIsAnIdiot · · Score: 1

    The supercomputer thing is cool and useful and everything, but what I really waiting for is someone to bring true 'intelligence' to computers. Despite all progress that has been made in the last 50 (?) years of computing, our present-day machines can only be described as truely gifted idiot savants. They can blaze through a list of instructions faster than ever before, but are helpless in assigning any meaning to those instructions, or learning from them.

    For example say you have 2 graphics packages installed on your PC, A and B. Package A is able to export to a certain picture format, say JPEG2000, but package B isn't. Why? The instructions for writing out a JPEG2000 pic exists on the hard drive, the computer is able to follow them (as evidenced by package A). Why can't the computer simply follow the JPEG2000 instructions in package A when package B wants to write out a pic? On a larger scale, imagine a Google that understands context, subjects and objects, not just words. It could distinguish and understand the difference between searching for chinese dishes served at a restaurant and a china dish sitting on a cupoard.

    IBM (and others) are doing great work in making computers bigger, better and faster, but I'm still waiting for some true computer intelligence. If it takes bigger, better and faster computers to make it happen, I'm all for it. I think true, usable, accessible machine intelligence would be a huge leap forward, and would change our world more than the Internet did.

    OK - you can start with the Skynet comments now.

    1. Re:'Super' computers vs 'Intelligent' computers by BeerCat · · Score: 1

      For example say you have 2 graphics packages installed on your PC, A and B. Package A is able to export to a certain picture format, say JPEG2000, but package B isn't. Why? The instructions for writing out a JPEG2000 pic exists on the hard drive, the computer is able to follow them (as evidenced by package A). Why can't the computer simply follow the JPEG2000 instructions in package A when package B wants to write out a pic?

      It is a better analogy if you consider the computer to be a library, and each program a separate book. Then it would be surprising if the Maeve Binchey started acting like the Dean R Koontz!
      In other words, the two applications should be treated as entirely separate. However, if both applications used the same database engine to store their preferences, then a third (query) program, C, could learn to encode in the format of either A or B by reading from the data stores, even though they would be different tables. Thus program C would be a step closer to "intelligence", as it could learn from all around it, whereas A and B could only ever be self-referential.

      Note that, for example, IBM's AS/400 has an in-built database, so the query tool can read the data that the commercial applications write to (comes in handy for weird queries that aren't part of the application's toolset)

      --
      "She's furniture with a pulse"
  86. The most important question by t0ny · · Score: 1
    But... does it play Ogg?

    Somebody needs to ask, and it may as well be me. I leave the obligatory Wolfpack question for others (Im not greedy, after all).

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

  87. Right there by cce · · Score: 1

    The pictures are right there in the article. It's the half-rack system they're standing next to. Here are more.

  88. 360 is greater than 40 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Earth Simulator is 40 teraflops. Blue Gene/L is expectected to operate at 360 teraflops (in 2005), easily winning the #1 spot unless someone's been developing something in secret that no one knows about.