Download Anaconda for Debian

hsoom writes "Debian Planet is reporting that unofficial sarge-based ISOs using the Anaconda installer can be downloaded from here. The features developed so far include '...changed the code that installs software to use APT instead of RPM, removed Red Hat-specific configuration hooks, and written a new tool called picax that builds Anaconda-based installation CDs from a Debian repository'. However there are features that are not yet working and it is not recommended for use in a production environment."

Comments

This is good news.

[byolinux]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment, and this will be a move in the right direction.

Give it some time.

Knoppix is right now probably the easiest way to install Debian, via knx-hdinstall.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment, and this will be a move in the right direction.

It's not that hard to install, but one of the major hurdles I found when using Woody's boot CDs, was the completely obsolete kernels you have a choice of using. Neither of them was from this year. I tried 2.4.18-bf24 but it didn't recognize any of the ethernet nics in my machine... an intel gigabit ethernet PCI card and two onboard interfaces (nforce2 nvidia network interface and a 3com interface). It was an Asus A7N8X-Deluxe board I was trying to install it on. I eventually gave up and put a realtek NIC in to do the network install. Pretty embarassing with the other guys just did a Mandrake install and their NIC was picked up without a problem.

The other problem with the outdated kernel is the Nforce2 IDE chipset doesn't work in DMA mode at all. I needed to compile 2.4.21 with AMD Viper support before I could get anything better than 4-5MB/sec. Now it's great at 50MB/sec.

Another problem I had seemed to be related to the APIC on this board. I would get constant lockups under heavy I/O. Unfortunately one of the heavy I/O periods was during the initial apt-get over the network, thus it would lock up every single time I tried to install. I eventually got it to just install the base image off the CD, replaced the kernel with the 2.4.21 I built on another machine, and after that it was fine (I compiled the kernel without any APIC support).

Anyway, to make a long story short, it's outdated support like this that'll never get Debian to be accepted by my coworkers, and I can't say I blame them. I love the stability and easy of maintenance once it's installed, but putting it on a newer machine is sure a pain in the ass. I'll be stuck with Red Hat (Enterprise Linux) from now on I guess for our servers since Debian provided such a poor showing on a workstation setup.

Re:This is good news.

[Stir]

Don't forget about Libranet. Easy installer, pure Debian.

Re:This is good news.

[martinde]

> One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment,
> and this will be a move in the right direction.

And of course, the "standard answer" to this is "you only install Debian one time on any one machine". People who have not used it have a hard time believing this, but it's true barring hard disk failure or some other catastrophe like that. Even major updates happen via "apt-get upgrade", and 99.9% of the time it Just Works(TM) if you're running stable. (Take that down to about 97% for unstable/testing.)

I have a machine that started out around Debian 1.1, as a 486 and has been hardware upgraded several times (to a Pentium Pro and now a 1GHz C3) and apt-get upgraded routinely since those days. I had to reboot due to the recent linux security issue, prior to that this machine had an uptime of 172 days. It's running Debian/stable plus I've done some backporting out of unstable for a few key bits.

Anyways, between Knoppix, anaconda, and the new debian-installer work going on within Debian, hopefully the "it's hard to install" issue is just about a moot point. Enough proselytizing for this morning ;-)

Re:This is good news.

[byolinux]

You think so? I think it's quite sad that there are people like you still around.

Why must GNU/Linux be some elitist thing? I like to think that Free Software can give users a real choice, and also bring together users who previously could not afford to use a computer - for example, affordable/no-cost screen reader technology could bring hundreds and thousands of people with sight problems to the table. Currently, their only real option seems to be paying an inordinate amount for a product on Microsoft Windows that doesn't even do the job particularly well. Wouldn't it be nice to empower those people? I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are more than capable of becoming fantastic programmers, but until they can afford to get access to technology, they won't have that chance.

For your information, I'm making the case for new users to be able to install it. I myself had very few problems getting it to install, once I got over the hurdle of setting up the NIC.

Re:This is good news.

[RLiegh]

I'm not sure if the parent post is a troll or not; but regardless, the point is valid.

As far as text-based dialog installs go, debians' is fairly straight-forward and powerful as well. If you are daunted by the mere fact of being presented with a CLI -good or bad- then perhaps you should stick to windows or macOS.

Simply because if you're that CLI-phobic, you're going to be screwed the first several times you're faced with a command prompt.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian's installer is not a CLI.

Sure, it's text-based. However, it's got dialog boxes and other widgets familiar from GUIs. The only thing lacking really is support for a mouse.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

I beg to differ, Mepis ( http://www.mepis.org ) provides a KDE based installer for Debian.

Re:This is good news.

[Nakarti]

Even major updates happen via "apt-get upgrade", and 99.9% of the time it Just Works(TM) if you're running stable. (Take that down to about 97% for unstable/testing.)

But then, of course you have the apt-get upgrade success rate of Hacked to Chewy Bits Debian (Lindows) which takes care of Unstable's missing 3% and nothing more.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

Debian is working on a new installation process for their sarge release. This new debian-installer is greatly improved over the previous methods. I have been playing with it as a net-install and found it to work extremely well.

Installation time, not counting file downloads which don't require my intervention anyways, is on the order of 20 minutes or less

I don't know that Anaconda can bring much of anything to the installation process. When installing debian-installer I found I was asked fewer questions and have a faster set up then I did with SuSE 8.2.

One very important point to make abundantly clear about the debian-installer is that it is not responsible for the configuration of your X-Window environment. This is something that may confuse newbies who are not used to the concept of a non-GUI operating system. All the distro's offer it (non-GUI), but many are assuming a GUI interface is preferred.

Keeping this in mind, the debian-installer does what it is intended to do very well. And it's cross platform too!

Personally, I don't think it's a generally good thing to have more distribution models tied into to only one installation engine. There are advantages with this, but there are always disadvantages to a homogeneous environment.

Re:This is good news.

[flewp]

What's wrong with making it easier for those who are new to linux? One of the biggest drawbacks I think for newbies to linux is the "ease" of installation. It's gettting better and better, and I'm sure soon it'll be just as easy as Windows. What bothers me though, is this elitist attitude. How the fuck are people supposed to get into linux if they have a hard time installing it? You gotta start somewhere, and you gotta install to get started.

Re:This is good news.

[gantrep]

So your girlfriend throws a Honda
Playin' workout tapes by Fonda
But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda
My anaconda
Don't want none unless you got buns, hon
You can do side bends or sit-ups
But please don't lose that butt

Re:This is good news.

[bezbaq]

The Morphix HD install seems is a pretty good flavor of the same thing.

Re:This is good news.

[jpc]

Yes but some of us install a lot of machines, and mostly new ones without support. Simply updating the kernels in the install images would help a lot.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

I don't think installing Linux is Elitist

It depends on the distribution you select and the requirements you have as a user.

You must first recognize that there is a trade-off between the two concepts of Simple to Use and Highly Configurable. I believe that the two are to a large extent, mutually exclusive of each other.

If you want Simple to Use then you can grab something like Knoppix or Libranet and have a Linux installation up and running in a few minutes without no idea what you actually did. However, you will not be able to customize the installation to include a mail server that can do something like:

• SMTP + SASL_Authentication over TLS
• Amavisd+spamassassin+clamav
• LDAP+Kerberos/SSH user authentication
• IMAP+SSL and IMAP-SSL(localhost) support

as an example.

If you want to do that, then you have a lot more work to do that a simple newbie and for that matter, most simple newbies don't know what the fuck I just said, unless the heard it in a trade magazine.

I can do all of this stuff using Debian with out much difficulty. Technically I can't even do what I posted in SuSE without going into custom builds on most everything. So even there, they (SuSE) has hit the barrier between Simple to Use and Highly Configurable

Arguably, Microsoft will probably come up with a configuration utility that does all of these things with the click of a button. But there will be at least two problems with their implimentation:

1. It won't work quite the way you would like it to, so you'll have to compromise.
2. Their security history has been less than stellar.

Other than that, Microsoft is probably the Leader of the Pack when it comes to Simple to Use. They do it very well and they have their millions of users out there with their installation of XP.

IMHO I think that the Computer User community is divided into approximately three camps:

Casual User

This is the guy who doesn't even know what a hard drive his, he thinks it's rush hour. He has no interest in learning about anything to do with computers but nonetheless is saddled with the requirement that he use email and web browsers as a part of whatever life he chooses to lead.

Super User or Interested User

These are the guys who ask questions about what their computer does, how does it work, can I do this? They will inevitably take up some kind of semi serious coding, even if it's HTML + Javascript. They might even get into C/C++, Perl, Python, dot-net. But they begin to approach the type of user who understands 99% of the questions asked when installing a linus distribution of circa 1995

God Mode User

These are the anointed dudes who can code you into a corner from their PDA. They can come up with shell tricks that hurt your brain and melt your eyeballs. These are the guys who really know their shit and consider installation of Linux-from-Scratch something of a Saturday Night Special

Assuming that my presentation of three types of users isn't completely out of line, then you have to recognize that GodMode Users and Casual Users will probably never be satisfied on the same system. At least not now.

It is entirely possible that these users can converge onto one distribution, but that remains to be seen. If I had to pick one today, I would say it's Debian. Because Knoppix, Libranet, and Lindows are all based on Debian, Debian is the best candidate we have today for meeting the needs of all three of these user-types.

And this is why Perens said we should all back Debian. Because right now, the foundation that is Debian is being used to satisfy the requirements of more types of users in the world than any other distribution out there, bar none. You can argue about exceptions, but the final score will be Debian.

Re:This is good news.

[martinde]

> Yes but some of us install a lot of machines, and mostly new ones without support. Simply updating
> the kernels in the install images would help a lot.

This is definitely the area where I've had the most issues too. I've had to install PCI ethernet cards in cases where a new motherboard's onboard ethernet isn't supported, and occasionally I've built my own install disks with custom kernels.

Next time I run into this, I think I'll try a Knoppix install and see how that works. It seems to be updated often and have modern kernels.

Re:This is good news.

[byolinux]

Just to clarify, I don't think it is elitist in the slightest, but some people seem to have the attitude that if you can't do X and Y without a hitch, you're not worthy of GNU/Linux.

That's just a stupid way to think IMO.

Re:This is good news.

[byolinux]

I'm with you on this.

Re:This is good news.

[byolinux]

I don't think we're talking about stupid people, but people need to learn somehow. For example, $JoeAverageWindowsUser should be able to use GNU/Linux to a fair degree of competency in a short period of time, including installing it.

If he can do this on a Macintosh, why shouldn't he be able to do this on a GNU/Linux system?

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Libranet. You can download 2.7 for free or buy 2.8.1. Either way, you get a cleaner installer. You also get a wonderful admin tool called adminmenu. Adminmenu or Xadminmenu allows you to do wonderful things easily. Like, install the proprietary Nvidia drivers, update the kernel, and my favorite, recover your Xwindows setup after you screw it up. Updating the kernel is *Important*. That is one thing that up2date (Redhat) did well and as near as I can tell apt-get -upgrade doesn't. So making that easier is vital. Libranet is Debian with all the good that comes with that.
MC

Re:This is good news.

[bfields]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment, and this will be a move in the right direction.

And of course, the "standard answer" to this is "you only install Debian one time on any one machine".

I agree--I think that I spend less time on maintenance overall than I did when I used Redhat and reinstalled once or twice a year (but that was several years ago; maybe Redhat's updates have gotten better).

But I still have a hard time recommending Debian to new users unless they have someone experienced to help. For the last machine I installed Debian on, for example, I had to compile and insert a module by hand for the network card to get the install past a certain point. Fairly straightforward if you know what you're doing, but if I'd had to do that on my first GNU/Linux install I'd have been lost!

--Bruce Fields

Re:This is good news.

[doodleboy]

Anyway, to make a long story short, it's outdated support like this that'll never get Debian to be accepted by my coworkers, and I can't say I blame them. I love the stability and easy of maintenance once it's installed, but putting it on a newer machine is sure a pain in the ass. I'll be stuck with Red Hat (Enterprise Linux) from now on I guess for our servers since Debian provided such a poor showing on a workstation setup.

There's a lot of new interest in debian because there's no corporation that will try to monitize its relationship with its users if it becomes more popular. The installer is a problem, but there's a lot of work being done - there's progeny's anaconda port, there's the new installer in sarge, etc. If this happens in a reasonable timeframe I would not be surprised if it made huge inroads in the enterprise space. Easy easy updates and no money to pay, ever, is a powerful combination.

But if you can't wait for debian to ship a modern installer and don't want to fork over $$$ for Redhat Enterprise Linux 3 you can always try White Box Linux (http://www.beau.org/~jmorris/linux/whitebox/), a free version of rhel3. It's at rc2 now and production release is probably only a month or two away. I notice the Dag apt repository (http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/) has rhel3 rpms, so it should be possible to stay up to date with apt.

Re:This is good news.

[lspd]

It's not that hard to install, but one of the major hurdles I found when using Woody's boot CDs, was the completely obsolete kernels you have a choice of using.

There is some talk recently on debian-devel about letting newer kernel versions into the point releases, so in the future this may not be much of an issue. The idea has been shelved until after Sarge is released since Sarge will have a new kernel anyway. On the flip side though, the default 2.4 and 2.2 kernels can generally get Debian installed on almost any hardware. After that, compiling a kernel from scratch with make-kpkg is fairly simple.

Re:This is good news.

[arivanov]

If you are really installing a lot on modern machines you may find it much easier to install over the network and build a set of kernel packages with updated drivers. Works a treat.

Re:This is good news.

[MSG]

Installation time, not counting file downloads which don't require my intervention anyways, is on the order of 20 minutes or less

You won't be disappointed by anaconda. My install times are generally < 5 minutes when I do a network based install.

but many are assuming a GUI interface is preferred.

This "assumption" is only true if 1) you install X, which you don't have to 2) you're installing locally, using CD's. If you're setting up servers, you're probably going to use kickstart to do a network based install. X is one of the most common interfaces to Unix systems. It's ridiculous to pretend that an installer that doesn't configure X is ready for mass consumption. Ready for use by network system admins, sure. That's about as far as it'd get...

And it's cross platform too!

So's anaconda.

There are advantages with this, but there are always disadvantages to a homogeneous environment.

Uh... generally when people talk about the disadvantages to a homogenous environment, they're talking about security issues that come up when all of the members of the environment have the same vulnerabilities. Can you name one disadvantage to a complete, easy to use installer that's consistant across hardware platforms and distributions? Nothing comes to my mind....

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

why?

that joe average user didnt install windows either.
and doesnt install most things. he has some neighborhood kid do it

you need to remember, windows aint easy to most people either.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

... but where do those of us soley interested in pr0n fit it? Don't we get some sort of "pervert user class"

Re:This is good news.

[Synn]

I'm glad to hear they may start doing this, as I've had the same problem as the other user. We use HP Proliant servers and HP has a habit of putting in hardware that's only supported by the latest kernels.

For example, their raid controller only works in the early 2.4 kernels and the ethernet card only works in the latest 2.4 kernels.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

And, Libranet 2.8 now has a straightforward upgrade from their 2.4.18 kernel to the 2.4.23 kernel. Instructions here .

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Libranet.

I've heard Knoppix is good, though I've not tried it. Libranet 2.7 is a download version, and the paid version is 2.8.1, and it is rock solid. The installer excels (simple, adequate, easy to understand), a complete software load is comprehensive yet not excessive (two cd's as opposed to seven or eight for some distros)...

In addition, the Adminmenu makes package management and system configuration changes a snap. It's too bad this distro is not very well known.

Re:This is good news.

[bogie]

"It's not that hard to install, but one of the major hurdles I found when using Woody's boot CDs...."

Of course its hard to install. Why are Debian users so against admitting that their installer is completely innapropriate for most users who are familiar with and want an easy to use GUI installer? The installer is confusing and cryptic and a million years behind the installers from Red Hat, Mandrake and Suse.

The only people who think its not hard to install have done it a million times. It's akin to me saying building your own car isn't hard. Just follow the directions. Oh did I mention I'm a engineer?

The refusal to deal with problems like the installer are the number one reason why the vast maority of people new to Linux run away en mass from Debian. It's like that old Dentist Ad. Ignore your teeth and they'll go away. Same goes for Debian. Ignore what your users want and they'll go away. Many have.

Re:This is good news.

[HiThere]

If you're using an Intel or AMD box, try LibraNet Linux. It's Debian, with a simple installer. It also has a proprietary admin utility, but if you want a vanilla debian, you can remove the commercial parts without hurting the basic install. (It's not just the admin utility. There are also some icons & images.)

Re:This is good news.

[JasonAsbahr]

What are you using to measure IDE performance?

Re:This is good news.

[adrianbaugh]

As a recent convert I must say I agree with you (having used Red Hat-based distributions for years, with occasional forays into gentoo-land). Since installing debian (via a knoppix CD) I've been almost disturbed at how well it works, especially with regard to downgrading stuff. Recent RPM distributions seem to do okay, with the help of urpmi or whatever, but tend to be slow and sometimes leave unnecessary files hanging around. Debian just does it better. (IME, certainly.)
Also, everyone mentions apt as a reason for debian's power, but make-kpkg is also incredibly powerful. Having a tool that, given a kernel tarball and a .config file, can quickly and easily generate packages that fit in with the rest of the system's package management, is incredibly useful and not something that any other distribution does particularly well (even gentoo, although at least new kernel ebuilds seem to appear fairly promptly).

Re:This is good news.

[gomoX]

You could also have read the debian installation manual here:
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ ch-boot -floppy-techinfo.en.html#s-rescue-replace-kernel
That would have teached you to replace the kernel on a boot floppy for a more recent one, specially since your hardware is newer than the 2.4.18 kernel included in the woody floppies.
For example, in order to install to a SATA disk you have to get a boot floppy that has a kernel including the libata patches, so you build one in a snap and youre just fine. Maybe you should read a bit more an bitch less.

Re:This is good news.

[Cramer]

• The installer is confusing and cryptic and a million years behind...

At least it installs EXACTLY what you've told it to install and doesn't take hours of forward/back to deal with dependencies. I have long bitched at redhat for installing shit I intentionally tell it not to install (like, kudzu, lilo...) See, RH has a list of shit that it will always install and you have no say (short of building your own CDs.)

I've used RedHat, Debian, SuSE, and Mandrake ('tho I threw it away instantly), and even Gentoo. (Well, Slackware and SLS, too, for that matter.) Redhat has been evolving towards "brainless installation" for several years. This is a requirement for the masses as very few people know how to build a car, as you put it. Mandrake takes this to the "mindless zombie" absurdity -- which is why I hate it. Gentoo is just a pain in the ass. SuSE is ok, but doesn't have the breadth of debian and I have zero need for localization for 47 different languages. Which brought me to debian...

Despite the age of the "stable" version, and relatively complex installer, I like debian. It installs exactly what I tell it to. I don't have to hunt for and download rpms. They don't drop arch's. Etc.

• Ignore what your users want and they'll go away

If they go away, they aren't "our users". And as your complaints are against the installer, those users would never become debian users -- they'll give up long before a working system is setup. The debian installer may be complex, but it works. And it's obviously not so complex that people cannot use it because there are a lot of people using debian (and it's been around for a decade.)

And most "new users" go with RedHat, mostly because of marketing. People outside Linux rarely make a distinction between "Linux" and "RedHat". Substitute SuSE for RedHat in the EU.

Re:This is good news.

[macmouse]

Ah yes, I got the exact same board are you do.

I can't explain the heavy I/O Problems as well. There has been an recent BIOS Update [1007], which has helped it an bit (Claimed about an fix for an certain type of memory). Still, it has an issue now and then.

The only real way I've been able to solve it is to under-clock the CPU. I got an Athlon 2500+, which should do 266bus and be all happy. I crank down the bus to 100 (so it runs at 1100) and its rock solid. I am disappointed - asus normally makes good stuff. I doubt that its heat - I got plenty of cooling. I'm running at ~35-37C all the time - way below specifications, not to mention what most people run at.

Ironically, if I boot into windows (dual-boot), it runs fine at full speed. I can't explain that. They have some fixes in .23 now too, but I haven't updated yet- maybe that would catch the rest of the problems. Its not really an problem for me because I only really need the speed in windows for gaming anyway.

Re:This is good news.

[derF024]

Updating the kernel is *Important*. That is one thing that up2date (Redhat) did well and as near as I can tell apt-get -upgrade doesn't.

• kernel-image-2.4-386 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on 386.
• kernel-image-2.4-586tsc - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on Pentium-Classic.
• kernel-image-2.4-686 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV.
• kernel-image-2.4-686-smp - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP.
• kernel-image-2.4-k6 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III.
• kernel-image-2.4-k7 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K7.
• kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K7 SMP.

apt-get install the kernel image for your arch and it will stay up to date with the rest of your system automatically. Unfortunately, it doesn't do this out of the box.

Re:This is good news.

[Minna Kirai]

The normal way to measure IDE speed on a linux system is hdparm:
# /sbin/hdparm -t /dev/hda /dev/hda:
Timing buffered disk reads: 64 MB in 1.60 seconds = 39.96 MB/sec
# /sbin/hdparm -T /dev/hda /dev/hda:
Timing buffer-cache reads: 128 MB in 0.40 seconds =316.62 MB/sec


Beyond just measurement, hdparm is also a way to tune settings (such as whether or not DMA is active). However, a non-expert should use control panels supplied by the Linux distrib to make any changes.

Re:This is good news.

[Minna Kirai]

If you are really installing a lot on modern machines you may find it much easier to install over the network and build a set of kernel packages with updated drivers. Works a treat.

To do that requires an expert knowledge of the Debian package system. And if he had that knowledge, he wouldn't have been complaining that the installer was difficult.

Re:This is good news.

[fo0bar]

Let me guess... You're talking about a Gigabyte 7NNXP motherboard?

(I went through the same hurdles :)

Re:This is good news.

[grolschie]

The argument that Debian is difficult to install is invalid. My first ever Linux install was Debian Potato. Sure it had no graphical auto-magical installer. However, it still was reasonably easy to install for a total n00b. Mind you, my distributor had given me a text file with some basic install info, gotchas and a list of info to find out about ym pc before commencing. This is not unreasonble. MS even has a manual for it's Windows installation. A little homework allowed the install of a functional Linux OS on my machine. I don't know why computer illiterate people even try to install an OS (or use fdisk/cfdisk) in the first place. These people are more suited to Compaq/HP/Acer/etc rescue cds.

Re:This is good news.

[Electrum]

To do that requires an expert knowledge of the Debian package system.

Nope:

cd /usr/src/linux
make menuconfig
make-kpkg --revision=name1 kernel_image

Replace name with the name of the machine (or another name identifying this kernel config) and 1 with the revision number (i.e. how many times you have built this config). This produces a .deb with the kernel and all modules, ready for installation with dpkg -i.

Re:This is good news.

[grolschie]

Do you really think $JoeAverageWindowsUser is able to use fdisk, format, cfdisk, etc? Or perhaps is $JoeAverageWindowsUser better suited to proprietary rescue cds (ala the ones that come with a laptop, etc)? It's amazing how many $JoeAverageWindowsUser's cannot even use these and wonder where their data is gone when they try to 'fix' their Windows install with these cds.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian isn't trying to be a distro for newbie linux users, it's trying to put forth the most stable, best all around system it can. The Debian crew (they probably don't call themselves a crew) does an outstanding job of this, and when a free (as in beer) stable linux distribution is needed, Debian is usually thought of first.

It's a measure of how good apt-get is that people still recommend Debian to newbies. Debian is a stable distribution. If you're looking for more bells and whistles, you can certainly look to Fedora or Mandrake.

You need to realize that some linux users are looking for a linux they can pour onto their system, rather than a linux that has to be shoehorned in. Debian's many configuration options fit this bill nicely.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

Do you really believe the $JoeAverageWindowsUser has ever installed Windows?

When the guy says, "Dude, yer gettin a Dell" he means it's already preinstalled and configured for that machine.

Most $JoeAverageWindowsUsers don't have any experience with installation of an Operating System.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

A bug.

A severe latent bug in a widely used configuration tool would cause problems installing that software.

If Anaconda, for some reason, puked on some strange feature, then it would affect both RedHat and Debian installations. Now, if it was even more ubuiquitous it might put a halt to the installation process on SuSE and Gentoo as well

Do you understand my point?

Re:This is good news.

[Dylancable]

Do you really think the $JoeAverageWindowsUser will be able to handel Linux if he can't do anything that isnt 'Stupidfiyed' im sorry but eventually he is going to have to touch a console. People who actually have worked in help desk field understand that some people just ain't ment to touch a computer let alone Linux.

Re:This is good news.

[shaitand]

It would also be fixed twice as fast with both distributions working on it.

Re:This is good news.

[shaitand]

Have you ever used anaconda? The true advantage here isn't so much the easier install in terms of a gui, easier to answer, or less numberous questions. The advantage is in terms of hardware detection. On over 90% of systems I use it on anaconda detects EVERY piece of hardware out of the box AND has about the same success rates on xwindows configuration. If it doesn't detect the hardware, it means I'm looking at some true pain to install it because the existing system DOES NOT have what I need to run that hardware.

Re:This is good news.

[WankersRevenge]

$JoeAverageWindowsUser might not have installed Windows, but they've certainly RE-INSTALLED windows. You seem to forget that during your elitest rants. We're talking windows here. To quote Quent, "The holiest of the holies". I can't tell you how many people I've met that have lost their Saturdays because they were doing a reinstall. Get off your horse, and join the people.

Re:This is good news.

[forgotmypassword]

Last time I upgraded from 2.2 to 2.4 on a base install the alsa module configuration and the lilo configuration got severely screwed up.

I had to manually fudge with my lilo.conf (ok so that only took 5 min) but then I spent days on my alsa modules before I figured out that the create sound devices script had moved directories, but the old one was still around.

I don't call that handled well. Both of those things should have been seamless.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

Since when? Today you don't get Windows with your computer, you get a OEM Ghost image of the hard drive.

They are not the same.

Re:This is good news.

[MSG]

If there were a bug in Debian's installer, would you ask the Debian team to provide you with a fix, or would you install Red Hat Linux?

Tell me again how it helps to have a variety of installers.

Re:This is good news.

[pherthyl]

How did you deal with upgrading the hard drive? Just curious if you managed to actually move your system to another drive and what is involved in that...

Re:This is good news.

[alexpage]

Unfortunately, it doesn't do this out of the box.

The kernels which come on the installation media are for installation and installation only. The Debian Installation Manual does suggest that you should install or compile a new kernel once you've completed the installation.

Re:This is good news.

[alexpage]

Both of those things should have been seamless.

So you filed appropriate bug reports, to help fix the problem, right?

Re:This is good news.

[JasonAsbahr]

Does 2.4.23 fix your IDE problems?

Single Package / Dep manager

[kbsingh]

Would be nice to see this expand into a single installer / package manager and (importantly!) a Dependency manager.

Maybe a hybrid of Anaconda + dselect would be nice, if rolled into 1. Add 'kickstart' kind of capablity to that and it would be a kickass app to have around.

Specially since most people dont tend to install Linux from installable mode very often( i havent in the last 3 years)

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

I personally find dselect pretty quirky and awkward to use.

What we need is a tool with the power of dselect, but with an interface akin to something like yast on SuSE.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[CAIMLAS]

Don't worry, most of us do.

It might have something to do with the fact that its developers all use emacs, and that little flaw has worked its way into dselect.

I've found dselect is largely broken and will futz up your dependencies, etc. fairly quickly. Straight apt-get for me.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Saint Stephen]

use aptitude (console) or synaptic (gtk)

I'm amazed that more people don't know this. I used dselect for about a day, then quickly discovered apt+tasksel, then aptitude. Dselect is awful.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Ed Avis]

But maybe what Debian should really be doing is copying from Knoppix. That has the easiest installation, i.e., no installation at all, and it's Debian-based. The conventional 'install it first and then run it' routine isn't nearly as easy or as much fun as 'run from CD and optionally install to your fixed disk later'. I'm surprised distros aren't making bigger moves towards a Knoppix-like installer, now it has been demonstrated that it can be done.

(Now Knoppix itself is i386-specific I think, but that's mostly hardware detection. On other architectures detection might be a bit less complex, I don't know.)

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

I don't mind emacs, it's now my editor of choice, after I sat through the tutorial one rainy weekend.

Glad I'm not the only person who doesn't like dselect though.

I usually apt-get, even on my Macintosh where I could be using Fink

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

aptitude for me, doesn't seem simple enough... too much going on, but I will try it :)

yast is almost too nice to use, both in X and CLI.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[The_DOD_player]

Amen to that!!.

Knoppix is becoming Debians default installer on x86 hardware. Its not just more fun than the conventional approach, but it feels safer, since you can SEE it working on your computer before installing for real.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

I agree entirely.

Knoppix is pretty simple to install onto the Hard Disk too:-

1. Boot Knoppix
2. Alt-F2 (maybe Ctrl+Alt-F2)
3. Type knx-hdinstall

Knoppix for older Macintosh computers would seem like the next logical step - ones that can't run OS X, or run OS X poorly... good time for it, especially as Apple just had to pay out for misrepresenting OS X as functional on older hardware.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[mirthworks]

yeah, aptitude is good for me. I use apt-get to install single package. And aptitude to install/upgrade group of packages, also for searching packages.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[sirReal.83.]

You forgot a step.

4. Reinstall entire OS just to remove Knoppix-specific packages

Don't get me wrong, I love Knoppix, but for use as an installer it's far from perfect. The last Debian install I did, I used Mepis, which takes the hardware detection from Knoppix and makes it pure Debian, plus a couple of Mepis system admin tools (USB key /home syncing, APT-source config, spamassassin blacklist/whitelist... list goes on) and the install is super easy. It's all done graphically, after booting the CD.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

"I stand corrected" said the man in the orthopedic shoes.

I'll give Mepis a go.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Short Circuit]

dselect is a simple app. If you want power and convenience, look at aptitude, gnome-apt, synaptic, kpackage, or any of the other apt front-ends out there. I prefer aptitude, since it's more convenient over ssh than dselect or any of the X-based alternatives.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[BoysDontCry]

Well. You could try aptitude and/or synaptic. They're much easier to use. dselect is really ancient!

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[BoysDontCry]

You hit the nail on the head with your last line. The problem is that Debian supports many architectures (I think it's even more architectures than XFree supports!), so there is a lot of work to be done to build an installer.

There's a new installer in the works right now (it's in Beta). Don't know much about it though.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Saint Stephen]

There's a couple of tricks I discovered that really simplify things:

(1) Pretty much ignore "libs" and "libs-devel"; those are just noise; real apps will bring those in as needed, with aptitude.

(2) Use "tasksel" to get a "C/C++ environment". Then, type "apt-get build-dep mozilla; apt-get build-dep kcontrol; apt-get build-dep gnome-control-center" to bring in almost all the headers and libs for most things.

There are still a few heuristics I follow, but they're harder to describe: basically, ignore most stuff. If you follow (1) and (2) you'll find the # of packages doesn't seem mind-boggling vast; just huge.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[tacocat]

Hell No!

I like Knoppix and all, and it's kind of cool.

But it does not allow for configuration options at time of installation.

You can't use knoppix to install:

• RAID
• LVM
• Any partitions beyond swap and everything-else
• I don't like KDE!!! Don't force it on me.

Leave Knoppix where it is, it does a very nice job. But don't make Debian == Knoppix. That will make Debian == Stupid for those who have more advanced requirements for their system.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[wuliao]

Re-read your instructions from the perspective of an ordinary user.

1. Why do I have to hit Alt-F2? Why not a Menu option?
2. The fact that you don't know if it's Ctrl-Alt-F2 or Alt-F2 or if it changes shows a big usability problem right there.
3. Again, typing knx-hdinstall seems completely non-obvious. I'm sure I'd quickly figure it out by reading some docs or something, but why do I need to read some docs or google to figure that out?

Note: I've never used Knoppix, so maybe there are menu options, but those instructions aren't that easy, IMO.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[santos_douglas]

I understand how difficult it is for experienced linux users to see from the viewpoint of new users, so I thought I'd share my experience as just such a novice. I was totally new to linux, but as a capable Windows 2000 user I figured I could make it work. I downloaded the Debian ISOs to try out on my machine. I chose Debian since it seemed like THE distro out there. I was fairly surprised, it wasn't that bad (who's afraid of text based installs?) and I quickly had it installed and running with a KDE desktop. However it failed to configure some key hardware (sound, NIC, modem) which made moving further difficult. So I was extremely happy to learn about the official Debian w/Anaconda installer. Unfortunately it also coincided with the compromise of Debians machines so I never got a chance to try it out.

Finally some /.er recommended Mepis as a good Debian based distro, which I promtly installed and am quite happy with. The install went perfectly, and the default desktop may not be ideal to linux veterans out there, but its just fine for a linux newbie to start off on.

A few tips/things I've noticed:

-Right off the bat, where the heck is the volume control? Should be on the default desktop, not deep in the application menu as 'kmix'.
-With all due respect to Konqueror, Mozilla should be the default browser on the desktop.
-I don't know what's up with Kpackage, but I love apt-get.
-IM is pretty important to the masses, why not make a good multiprotocol client like Gaim the default?
-Mepis does a good job putting a GUI face on many of the system config stuff, but they are still spread over a number of menus. It would help if they were consolidated under one heading, similar to Windows control panel, although come to think of it everythings not under that either.

Overall though I'd say Anaconda is a big step forward for Linux on the average users desktop. With a few minor tweaks this could easily be recommended for the clueless windows user.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[michrech]

I've only ever had to use one command for any of my install tasks. Emerge.

(This is the part where I get marked troll or flamebait for stating that distros other than Debian have good package management)

(This is also the part where I wait for the next portage and all it's goodness)

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

1. Agreed. There should be a 'Install' icon, with a little computer icon, a la InstallShield on Windows.
2. I've not used it for a while, which is why I forget which it was.
3. See Point 1.

Like I said though, Knoppix is pretty simple. A readme file on the desktop could handle this for now, at least.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[frozenray]

> 3. Type knx-hdinstall

As far as I know, knx-hdinstall is deprecated with current Knoppix versions (starting June this year as far as I remember); the preferred method to perform a hard disk installation is now knoppix-installer. Gives you the choice to do a Knoppix installation or a Debian installation, too.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess it's an old joke, but does me pis linux use debian woody?

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Anonymous Coward]

no, a package manager that builds everything from source, even when you're using common-as-dirt x86 IDE-PCI hardware, is simply inane.

while you're waiting for mozilla to build, I've installed mozilla.

and openoffice, gnome, KDE, a pile of audio editing utilities, and the latest security updates. that would take you somewhere around 3 days, even with your 'optimized' kernel and build chain, wouldn't it?

and then your oc'ed CPU burns up somewhere around the time mozilla finishes building, and you visit the benchmarks to prove that gentoo presents no performance benefits over debian and mandrake.

I mean, gimme a break here. Gentoo is slow especially for compiling stuff!

Test 3 : Kernel Compile

The same 2.4.21 source was copied to all machines and compiled using the same options. However, it should be noted that the Debian system used gcc 3.3.1 whilst the Mandrake and Gentoo installations used gcc 3.3.2 .

Results:

Debian
7m 28s

Mandrake
7m 49s

Gentoo
9m 40s

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Joe Tie.]

You can't use knoppix to install:

Any partitions beyond swap and everything-else
I don't like KDE!!! Don't force it on me.

I can't recall the specifics, but you can get additional partitions by editing a configuration file created by the installer. As for KDE, who's forcing it on you? apt-get install gnome.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[woobieman29]

-1 inappropriate-leetboy-Gentoo-reference

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[michrech]

Well, I keep trying to find the spot where I mentioned that I thought Gentoo was faster than Debian at anything, let alone installing. Wait. That's right. I didn't. I only mentioned it's install tool.

I don't even recall stating it was faster than apt. Wait... Wait.. yea. I didn't say anything about that at all.

What I *DID* say is that Debian isn't the only distro with good package management.

Crawl back into your little hole. Your not welcome here. Same goes for the moron that moderated you Insightful.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[sirReal.83.]

-Right off the bat, where the heck is the volume control? Should be on the default desktop, not deep in the application menu as 'kmix'.
I agree.

-With all due respect to Konqueror, Mozilla should be the default browser on the desktop.
Nah, I disagree. First off, Mozilla takes a long time to load. Firebird is great, but I think that keeping the consistent look of all KDE apps is a Good Thing (TM). Also, what specifically do you like about Mozilla that Konqueror doesn't have?

-I don't know what's up with Kpackage, but I love apt-get.
Yeah... KPackage is strange, though it does work very well for installing individual .debs that have been downloaded. Synaptic is cool, but it's a little slow because of how crazily complete it is. apt-get rules.

-IM is pretty important to the masses, why not make a good multiprotocol client like Gaim the default?
That's what Kopete is for! I can't remember if it's included in KDE 3.1.4 which is what Mepis uses, because I installed orth's KDE CVS HEAD .deb's for sid.

-Mepis does a good job putting a GUI face on many of the system config stuff, but they are still spread over a number of menus. It would help if they were consolidated under one heading, similar to Windows control panel, although come to think of it everythings not under that either.
Yeah, that does leave something do be desired... but I think it's more the job of the KDE folks than the Mepis folks to get that done. I'm sure that in the relatively near future (KDE 3.2, 3.3...) the Mepis config utilities will be obselete/assimilated into KDE. But already, the KDE Control Center is far more centralized than Windows Control Panel ever was; notice how you don't have to click through fifteen "property boxes" just to get to anything useful. Sadly, KControl doesn't do much hardware configuration at all. I'm sure that's coming, though.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[santos_douglas]

Ok, you may be right about Mozilla, I took another look at Konqueror and it seems fine, it just has a slightly different default style so the pages looked a little off. Everyone says Mozilla is slow, but it loads up decently on my crappy 533mhz eMachine, so I guess I must be a bit more patient that others.

Well I didn't notice Kopete, but now that I see it there (name did not suggest it was an IMer) thats great. The first thing I noticed was Kit (AIM client) so I assumed that was the default one. But who uses just AIM right?

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Minna Kirai]

What I *DID* say is that Debian isn't the only distro with good package management.

Which implies that emerge is (nearly) as good as apt-get. Something which is needlessly very slow is not good. Therefore his attacks on Gentoo's slowness are completely appropriate.

Grab a man off the street and try to convince him that a system which takes 3 hours to install a web-browser is "good"...

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[stevey]

Whilst I agree that the gentoo system looks good, and the package management appears simple, concise and good there is one flaw compared to Debian.

Debian has the notion of a 'stable' release - I 'm sure you've heard of it, lots of people complain that it's outdated, but I run it happily on multiple server machines where the latest and greatest isn't necessary.

As part of the stable serious security fixes are backported sensibly.

Gentoo as far as I can tell insists on using the latest and greatest for everything, and their idea of security fixes are to upgrade to the latest release - that's simply not acceptible for a server.

If I'm wrong I'd love to be told; so that I could take a closer look at it ..

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do I have to hit Alt-F2? Why not a Menu option?

That's easy. There's no menu. Knoppix includes a list of things you'll probably want to do, then a line where you type in what you want to do under that. Having a menu would just be dumbing it down. Maybe stupid people need menus, but typing Ctr+Alt+F2 works just fine.

The fact that you don't know if it's Ctrl-Alt-F2 or Alt-F2 or if it changes shows a big usability problem right there.

Ctrl+Alt+F2 takes you to a text console. It's been this way for years, and is likely never to change. While you don't have to know about consoles to use linux, you're losing 90% of linux's power by going at it this way. You can't possibly have a menu option for everything, and typing isn't hard. Knowing what to type is part of learning how to use the OS, just like learning where to click is part of learning Windows. (Once you've learned where to click on Windows, it gets annoying to see CPU eating help stuff comment on where it thinks you want to click. It's actually more usable the way Knoppix does it.)

Again, typing knx-hdinstall seems completely non-obvious. I'm sure I'd quickly figure it out by reading some docs or something, but why do I need to read some docs or google to figure that out?

How lazy are you? With computers, you get to pick:

1. A system that displays menu choices of what you're likely wanting to do, along with long descriptions (multiple paragraphs) of what each click does.
2. A command line where you can type what you want to do.

Looks like you're going to end up reading somewhere along the line. Nobody's going to do this shit for you, and nobody's going to do this shit for anybody else, either. It's up to you to learn how to use your computer.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[mcubed]

-With all due respect to Konqueror, Mozilla should be the default browser on the desktop. Nah, I disagree. First off, Mozilla takes a long time to load. Firebird is great, but I think that keeping the consistent look of all KDE apps is a Good Thing (TM). Also, what specifically do you like about Mozilla that Konqueror doesn't have?

Though not the OP, my answer to that question is: Mozilla's cross-platform. It's what I use under WinXP, along with Moz Mail&News (though I don't use it as a newsreader in Windows). But for some reason, Moz under MEPIS sucks ... blurry fonts, much slower and less responsive. Thunderbird was a bit faster, but even blurrier.

I'm sure that in the relatively near future (KDE 3.2, 3.3...) the Mepis config utilities will be obselete/assimilated into KDE.

One problem I had with the MEPIS config utility was trying to change my screen resolution ... it simply wouldn't take. Eventually I found the KDE X config tool and changed it there, then it worked. Makes me wonder what will happen if I try to change over to Gnome -- I gather from various posts on the MEPIS support forums that doing so is not very easy.

Michael

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[michrech]

Only one gigantic hole remains in your arguement. It's not portage's fault that the merge process is slow. It's GCC's and the fact that the software your tring to install has to actually BUILD.

Try again.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[michrech]

I'm here to correct you... :)

Gentoo will, by default, use whatever the latest "stable" version is (if you can really call any version of anything *nix stable, as it's always changing).. Anyway.. You half to edit /etc/make.conf and add in ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~arch" (where arch is PPC, x86, etc). This tells it to use unstable, bleeding edge versions of the software. I don't know why they chose "ACCEPT_KEYWORDS" except that it's not well marked and will keep most noobs away from it.

Anyway, Gentoo insists on using stable first. You must tell it to use unstable software.

Thanks for not being all "high and mighty" like the person who first responded to me.. =]

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[bafu]

(This is the part where I get marked troll or flamebait for stating that distros other than Debian have good package management)

Why would they do that? Did /. get rid of the off-topic mod or something?

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[MSG]

Maybe a hybrid of Anaconda + dselect would be nice, if rolled into 1

Anaconda does dependency resolution. So does "up2date". The current version of up2date also supports apt and yum repositories. There you go...

rightious karma whoring

[CAIMLAS]

Here's the link to building anaconda-based debian ISO images.

Finally a quick, easy way to remaster debian to hand out to friends.

Not to excited

[killmuji]

Before getting too enthusiatic about this, please do remember to read the errata before downloading the iso images. Lots of work still needs to be done, but this is a step in the right direction.

!help emacs

[Anonymous Coward]

-ChanServ- A novice of the temple once approached the Chief Priest with a question. -ChanServ- The novice asked, "Master, does Emacs have the Buddha nature?" -ChanServ- The Chief Priest had been in the temple for many years and could be relied upon to know these things. He thought for several minutes before replying. -ChanServ- "I don't see why not. It's got bloody well everything else." -ChanServ- With that, the Chief Priest went to lunch. The novice suddenly achieved enlightenment, several years later.

Re:!help emacs

[Anonymous Coward]

The novice suddenly achieved enlightenment, several years later.

When he switched to vi.</troll>

Does Anaconda support text

[armando_wall3]

I still prefer text based installations, so it will be great if Anaconda will be optional, so Debian will have the best of both worlds.

Does anybody know anything about it?

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, please read this post.

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[byolinux]

I'm guessing here that like Red-Hat, and other distros that have fancy GUI installs, they will also need a curses-based text installer for people who prefer graphical installs, or for people who need a text install for whatever reason.

I think Bruce Perens made the case for a text-based interface being more accessible for users in need of assistive technology, for example:- Blind users.

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[zerblat]

Anaconda won't be Debian's default installer -- the next version of Debian will use the new Debian Installer, which supports multiple UIs and all the Debian platforms.

Anaconda has been ported to Debian by Progeny, mainly because Progeny supports both Red Hat and Debian and they want to use the same installer for both distros.

Oh, and yes, Anaconda can be run in text mode, but it doesn't currently work in the Progeny port.

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[kosmosik]

Does anybody know anything about it?
Anaconda does support text install, also an unnatended instal via kickstart. It is not about GUI but about having a good flexible (easy to use but powerful) installer. Personaly i find Anaconda (since I'am Red Hat's user) very good, but important thing is that Anaconda support less architectures then Debian Installer (i don't know if Anaconda supports anything more than i386?).
Anaconda text mode is suitable for people having older machines since grapchical mode requires 64MB RAM, text mode only 32MB.

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[noselasd]

Anaconda is both text based and gui based. You choice. (provided they didn't just port the GUI part..)

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[damian]

Current Redhat and Fedora anaconda still support text mode installs, but some things like the partion editor are much easier to use in graphical mode.

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[Anonymous Coward]

We've had text-mode installs work in the past, though there's a bug in them now. I fully expect that bug will be fixed.

Also, as pointed out, debian-installer will be the default sarge installer.

Jeff Licquia
Progeny

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[Anonymous Coward]

the next version of Debian will use the new Debian Installer, which supports multiple UIs and all the Debian platforms.

So much for that Dec. 1 release date: http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ports -status.

Don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Anaconda is just a script that asks you a bunch of questions and eventually just calls the normal installer with a set of user-selected options.

Not much different from what you're doing now, unless you're compiling your own Linux from scratch.

So don't worry. Your precious text-based installation is still right there where it always was. In the stone age.

Re:Don't worry

[nick-less]

So don't worry. Your precious text-based installation is still right there where it always was. In the stone age.

Good to hear - so I can keep my hercules card until it amortized...

btw: does anyone know about an isa to pci-x interface card?

Re:Don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

So don't worry. Your precious text-based installation is still right there where it always was. In the stone age.

Spoken like someone who has never had to install a machine with a brand new Nvidia card in it. X doesn't work for shit with a GeForce FX card until you get the binary driver from Nvidia which you can't do until you get the OS installed which you need to do in text mode. ;-)

Foolproof installer?

[Trbmxfz]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install'

I think it can be argued that the Debian installer asks many questions that may not be easy to answer for a Linux newbie.

But, as you say, there is hope: I remember someone saying, a few years ago, that a RedHat had formatted their drives without clearly mentioning that it would be destructive (oops!). Today, Mandrake can be installed after just a few minutes worth of clicking "OK". It generally makes the right choices for the user, clearly shows what partitions will be created, and warns if it's about to blank an existing windows partition. If it finds some unsupported hardware, it mentions what it knows about it, so that the user can simply ask their local guru for help.

I think it's no exaggeration to say that someone who already installed Windows can safely install e.g. a Mandrake.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[gregmac]

I think it's no exaggeration to say that someone who already installed Windows can safely install e.g. a Mandrake.

I think that the Mandrake and Redhat (8, 9) installs (to get up to a working system) are better than Windows at this point. As long as you have relatively common and supported hardware, it sets everything up for you. I used to think that it was dumb of all the distros to include so many other utilities and applications, but I've changed my views on that now.

Once you install Windows itself, you have to run windowsupdate somewhere between 3 and 8 times (rebooting each time) to get it to the point it won't get infected with a virus in the next few minutes (and always do this behind a firewall). Then you have to go download all the things that you need for day-to-day tasks: winzip, pdf reader.. install usually an office suite, mozilla/firebird/thunderbird (well, at least I do.. but I won't go into a rant about how lacking in features IE/OE are). It takes at least two hours to install a Windows system, and most of the time is spent waiting. (And not just hands-off waiting time, either... Windowsupdate .. wait to download.. click install.. wait to install.. click to reboot .. wait to reboot.. repeat)

Taking redhat as an example.. All the interaction is at the start, selecting paritions (formatted later), selecting what to install, etc. Then you wait for it to install, though you do have to change the CD's once or twice (unless you do a net-install, which is handy). Once it boots up, run up2date -u, probably reboot for the new kernel, and thats it. Everything is up to date and ready to go.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[mcubed]

I think it's no exaggeration to say that someone who already installed Windows can safely install e.g. a Mandrake.

Well...maybe a bit of an exaggeration. Last weekend I began my first foray out of Windows. First I reformatted and reinstalled WinXP ... easy peasy. Slow, especially when you factor in all the updates necessary (SP1, etc.) and the certain amount of tweaking necessary to get rid of the more annoying "features," and of course reloading the hardware drivers. Nevertheless, straightforward. Then I installed the Debian-based MEPIS (I had previously booted it from the live CD-ROM, so I knew it would work). It is hard to imagine that installing any operating system could ever be easier. Absolutely flawless. Then I tried another Debian-based distro, Libranet. Absolute disaster ... failed on almost every score, except I think it handled my NIC fine. Then I tried Mandrake ... perfect hardware detection, but X wouldn't start. I got a lovely black screen and I don't know why and I haven't a clue what to do about it, especially as it correctly identified my monitor and video card. So I'm 1 for 3 and don't really know where to turn next.

MEPIS is great for getting a working system up fast, but my problem is I can't figure it out. The downside of these live CD distro's (and here I'm just guessing that Knoppix is pretty much the same) is that everything is tweaked, configured, and adjusted in ways that aren't documented, which make it difficult for the newbie (me!) to get a clear sense of how it all works. I've been pouring over Debian and other docs, then not finding the conf files where those docs indicate they would be. KDE help tools are nice for some things, but they don't explain too much more than how KDE works. All in all, the whole experience feels very much like Windows, but uglier, which isn't really what I was expecting (nor really what I want).

Really, what I would like to do is a minimal install of Debian, with MEPIS as a reference install, so I could build it up myself and not be so overwhelmed. But, I doubt I could get 'Woody' working, after my experiences with Libranet & Mandrake.

Michael

Re:Foolproof installer?

[LWATCDR]

I like Mandrake but it's installer is not perfect by far. I can not get it to install on my old k6 box. For some reason X just will not work. Red Hat installed just fine.
I wish I could get SUSE ISOs to try out but,,,
Oh well.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[tacocat]

Most Windows users never install Windows.

They purchase their computer with the software pre-installed. If anything goes wrong with the system, they have to find someone else who can install it for them. That's only required if they forgot their ghost CD.

If Linux came shipped on the computers from Dell, Compaq, et al, then I think a lot of people would start thinking that Linux was easier to install then Windows. I'm pretty sure that something like Libranet today might be considered a ghost CD equivelant.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[sg_oneill]

Hey Micheal. :)

You should track down your local linux club and ask if any geeks there would like to help you thru that first setup.

Debian woody really is the way to go if your prepared to learn, and after you've learned you really won't look back.

Many linux clubs do 'installfests' where a bunch a newbies bring there 'putas in , and the old hands gently lead em thru the install process and show them how it all fits together.

Despite the rumors about linux 'cliques' being pushy and all, most linux geeks , especially the older guys, enjoy the process of passing on there arcane wisdom. The rewards of being seen as a 'smart guy' are a pleasure in them selves.

Give it a go :)

Re:Foolproof installer?

[Jebediah21]

I agree the Debian installer was difficult but it wasn't because of the questions it asked. I was anything but a newbie when I tried to install Debian. The interface isn't that intuitive and dselect is awful. At no point did I have trouble with answering questions. Now I just use Knoppix to install a minimal system and apt-get everything I need.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can do a net install of suse. Download the boot iso, Do a manual install. Load your network modules. You need the ip address of a server and the directory. Enter them, and it's the normal install after that.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[LWATCDR]

I have tried that but even over my cable modem it was.... LONG.
You best bet when doing that is to download the files to your own network and then do the install. The problem is the the system I want to do the install on is the one with the big HD :)

Bittorrent link needed.

[chrestomanci]

Serously, the anaconda site will be in for a very heavy slahsdoting. They have links to two isos on the page that slashdot links to. How many will click on those links? how many will be disapointed? The filesisze are BTW: sarge-2003-11-25-bin1.iso 688,074,752 bytes sarge-2003-11-25-bin2.iso 42,174,464 bytes ie, about 720 Megabytes in total. I would consider putting up a torrent link myself, but I don't have a large enough pipe to download those files before the site (inevetably) goes down.

Good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is cool. I have been thinking of ditching Windows and was leaning towards a Debian "based" distro. Easier to install (for me) is a good thing.

Re:Good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Why wait? Even earlier Debian versions were easy to install after doing a little homework (i.e. knowing what hardware you own).

Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[_Pinky_]

I can understand some people saying Debian, in it's current state is difficult to install.

But I cringe when I hear that from a fellow computer person. I mean honestly, just because it's not using framebuffer and a mouse on install?

True, deslect/apt can be intimidating, but much easier the trying to manually find rpms down the road...

Do you spend more time supporting systems or installing systems??? Me, it's supporting them, so I love apt...

And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[byolinux]

And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

never heard that one before, but I did once know a guy who'd built up a few CD-Rs full of Windows DLL files he'd copy onto every Windows using friends PC.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[slim]

I can understand some people saying Debian, in it's current state is difficult to install.

But I cringe when I hear that from a fellow computer person. I mean honestly, just because it's not using framebuffer and a mouse on install?

Well, dselect could be friendlier: it's not so much that it's text based, but that the interface itself is alien to most people. It's a good interface, like vi is a good interface: but it's not quick and easy to pick up, and if you skip past the instructions, you're in trouble.

But that's not the worst thing about the Debian install. It's been proved that auto-detecting hardware can be done in Linux, yet to install Woody I needed to manually specify an Ethernet driver and select an appropriate X server. That's really not good enough, and would scupper a lot of people, computer professionals or not.

This may be fixed in Sarge: someone reply and tell me.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[BoysDontCry]

Well. Keep in mind that the Woody installer is several years old now.

The new installer should have good hardware detection. It's in beta right now.

Debian Installer

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[GigsVT]

Well. Keep in mind that the Woody installer is several years old now.

That seems like a serious problem in itself to me!

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the point is... the *current* install of Debian is hard. Way to miss the point

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Anonymous Coward]

And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

If I hear one more Debian user pretend things like apt-get and yum don't exist for RPM I sweare I'm going to scream.
There are commands that check every library the binary accesses, what packages those librarys are a part of, and every file you'll need for source code (blah-devel's). Debian made a great tool in apt and some distro's took it. Just like knoppix took kudzu and Debian took anaconda, etc
You are NOT directly responsible for spreading FUD, but alot of people are, can I ask what do we get out of LYING about other distros just to get people to use OURS?

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the problem whith making a base install of, for instance SuSE, then installing APT for SuSE and install everything else?
You get a base install very fast, whith all(most) of your hardware detected, your Xwindows running, the powerfull distro specific admin tools AND the power of APT.
And do not forget, much more up to date programs.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Uerige]

Can you elaborate on that?
I'm curious, really. Why do you think it is bad practice to keep using proven tools? Don't tell me it's because you seriously need hardware detection of your gpu!

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[GigsVT]

Because there's a lot of untapped value there. When Debian is still using ghostscript 6, and thousands of other obselete packages, you have to sacrifice all the advances made in the last several years if you want to run Debian.

Testing/Sid isn't an option for production, since the Debian people won't commit to providing security fixes in any timely manner for those versions.

I think Red Hat used to have it right. A distro should be updated in a major way about once every year-18 months. Ideally you'd want to support the current version, and the immediate previous major version.

It worked great, I don't know why RH had to fuck it up.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Anonymous Coward]

> And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

EH? up2date doesn't *have* dependency problems, it works like apt - if up2date needs to load additional packages to satisfy a specific package install, it does.

*RPM*, on the other hand, ...

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[Ziviyr]

> apt-get install aptitude
> aptitude

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[burns210]

the idea of debian's stability is real stability. if the Woody installer is tried and true, then it is stable, not bleeding edge.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[GigsVT]

So I have a good uptime, until I try to upgrade a kernel, which requires me to dick with a lilo.conf and rebuild an initrc by hand. That's still downtime.

I don't have a problem with doing that, it's just unexpected, since Red Hat has had kernel upgrades be fully automatic for almost 5 years now.

There's a tradeoff between time spent fixing stability problems, and time spent doing mundane tasks that should be automatic. The mundane tasks are much more common.

Knoppix anyday...

[Dylancable]

Common guy's just because Debian has a nice GUI installer doe's that really make it any better distro then it currently was?, For people who think debian stable is outdated, Give Knoppix a try , uses unstable branch and comes with nice hardware detection. I had problems with Redhat 9.0 detecting inbuilt hardware on a compaq armarda m300 and knoppix had no problem...

Yes, and over the network as well!

[Walles]

I agree entirely.

This would have all sorts of benefits:

• The installer can be written using the full GNOME / KDE / OpenGL / whatever-rings-your-bell libraries.
• You know your hardware is supported before installing.

Also, imagine reading everything from the network instead of from a CD. Then you could make a Windows program based on loadlin or whatever. Put a link to it on a web-page that says "Wanna try Linux? Click here!".

After it has booted into Linux and started GNOME / KDE / XFCE / Whatever, the desktop contains a "Click here to install Linux on your hard drive".

A nice way to lower the barrier of entry, no?

Re:Yes, and over the network as well!

[Short Circuit]

For people with high-speed internet connections, certainly. I'd like to see someone mass-mail some sort of LiveCD distribution to homes and small businesses.

It'd also be neat if someone would come up with a LiveCD set that demonstrated the client/server abilities of Linux, or some other OSS packages.

Re:Yes, and over the network as well!

[Anonymous Coward]

After it has booted into Linux and started GNOME / KDE / XFCE / Whatever, the desktop contains a "Click here to install Linux on your hard drive".

I remember a lot of distributions used to allow basically something like that by installing on a umsdos filesystem. It was kind of nifty, but I got bored and just reformatted with ext2.

I stand corrected

[RLiegh]

Perhaps what I should have said instead was "text-based interface".

anaconda-debian, apt-redhat

[danny]

First they ported apt to Redhat, now they're using anaconda for Debian installs! This is a great illustration of the flexibility of free software.

(Review of The Art of UNIX Programming )

Danny.

Re:Debian Problems

[sydbarrett74]

Nope, I agree with you fully. I think for the most part that Mandrake and SuSE are probably the best distros out there.

Kickstart...

[Crossfire]

Hopefully this means we have Kickstart too.

Debian has been needing kickstart-like functionality for a while. (No, FAI is not the answer, it works in a somewhat different manner, and its a royal pain to set up to bootstrap unstable systems from a host running stable).

Re:Kickstart...

[dieman]

I actually use autoinstall for the most part. Its way better and more flexible than kickstart, but it has a hell of a learning curve.

Hopefully this winter I'll find some time to release my patches and either fork autoinstall or get it merged into the official debian package.

Re:Kickstart...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kickstart does not work now, but it's a high priority to get working.

Jeff Licquia
Progeny

But knoppix is a mix of stable/unstable/testing

[Anonymous Coward]

Knoppix seems like a house of cards to me, it works great as is, but when I did apt-get update I started running into some issues/errors. Then in my ignorance I changed my sources.list to all unstable and did apt-get update again, big mistake. By the end of that day the system wouldn't boot. I've also tried (and I am still running) morphix, which is based on knoppix but is deb unstable. But I've had a few issues with that as well although I'm still on an older version of morhpix (but as parent mentioned I don't want to reinstall now, I should be able to just update this deb distro.)

Oh and I tried mepis about a month ago which was mentioned here about a week or so ago. Nice installer but even though I told it not to write lilo to the mbr, it still did and hosed it(just saw a bunch of zeros). The morhpix live cd came in handy to fix that. Also mepis seemed a lot slower than the other 2 distro's on this same hardware setup. Just right clicking on a link would literally take about 2 seconds before I would see the floating menu, or same thing in just using the os in general (whether I was in kde or a light wm like icewm).

I actually prefer using unstable deb for latest software and morphix is a pretty good choice, just not sure if it's the one I want to stick with.

Anyone know of other deb based distro's that are strictly sid/woody? I don't want a distro that mixed with all of em.

Also since this is slashdot I'll throw out a few of my problems and see if anyone can help. I've posted these to boards but no help really.

1) I have a nvidia card. I want to have vsync on for opengl apps at all times. I put the env variable in my .bashrc and that worked. But once I installed kdm for logging in it doesn't read my .bashrc anymore. Where do I put it when kdm is installed.

2) I have a psx pad hooked up to my lpt port. It works fine in windows and has worked in older linux distros (mdk 8,9 redhat 7.2) but in all these deb distros it works, but it seems to be using up way too much cpu resources, games that run at a solid 60fps without the gamepad drop to like 30-35 fps with it enabled. I've searched this to no end and the only thing I came up with was modifiying gamecon.c and modifying the psx delay value to something lower. People said this worked for them, but it didn't for me. And gamecon.c hasn't changed since 2001 so I know that the previous distros I was using were using the same version of gamecon but yet had no cpu/slowdown issues.

Ok I could go on and on with linux problems I've had, but if the slashdot crowd can help me with those 2 I'd be a happy linux user.

Re:Reinstall the OS?

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that installing linux is fun. Installing windows is a chore.

It's too bad that they are making linux so easy to install. Soon I'm going to have to move on to Hurd or something.

Easier then Knoppix

[nurb432]

Morphix or Mepis ( or even one of hte commercialized distros ) is even easier.. just push a button on your desktop and it launches a ( mostly ) GUI install ..

Great for a 'new user'.. they dont even have to drop ot a shell ( whats that they will ask ) to start the install ..

Re:My Linux machine would have an uptime of years

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you constantly reinstalling?

Most package based distributions (be it .deb:s or .rpm:s) consists of nothing more than, that's right, packages.

Upgrading to another version is mostly as simple as upgrading the packages.

I've gone from RH 7.0 all the way to Fedora (including all versions in-between) with little or no problems. During this time I've changed all hardware at least once, but I've never had to reinstall from scratch.

That's one of the great things about Linux, IMHO.

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[vondo]

Why should I care what NIC or video card or sound card is in a machine?

We have 30 machines in our research group; there are probably 20 different configurations. Sure, I can find out if I want to, but why should I open each machine up to take inventory before upgrading the OS?

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

But sysadmins, come on... If you don't know the hardware in the machine, maybe it's best you don't work on it, and find someone in the office who does....

I remember spending weeks hand picking equipment for a new machine based on reports I got from Usenet about how well the hardware worked with Linux. Sure, it may have been supported, but it may have been a bit buggy, etc. People just need to spend a little time researching hardware before they buy it to ensure it works instead of expecting it to automagically work on their shiny new computer. Buy a system that is two or three generations out of date for example. Get a PIII instead of a shiny new P4 with some unknown chipset. Buy a 100Mbit Realtek nic instead of that fancy new gigabit network card. Buy a SB16 PCI card instead of some new fangled surround sound card. Linux works great on OLD hardware.

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[tacocat]

Just a suggestion, but the next time you can't identify the hardware, flip to another console window (Alt+Ctrl+F2) and type "lspci -vv" and you will have all the information about hardware detection you could want.

And the best part is, you don't have to remove the cover!

Glossary

[nsushkin]

It took me a while to figure out the meaning of this article. It needs a quick glossary.

• sarge - The code name for the next major Debian release after woody is "sarge". It is likely that this release will be numbered "3.1".
• Anaconda - the Red Hat Linux installation program.

Re:My Linux machine would have an uptime of years

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think he is talking about installing different distributions. I am constantly trying out different ones. I know they are pretty much all the same, but I like to see what the different projects are doing.

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[Lumpy]

linux works great on new hardware if you have a clue as to wehat you are doing when you buy it.

want the surround sound pee-myself uber soundcard? Great! buy one that is supported. same as video, and all other cards/parts.

it is not hard to buy something that is new and works unless as a shopper the person has zero self control and has to grab the closest shiny object.

people bitch about hardware compatability, yet it's their fault for being idiots when they go shopping.

Re:Why do we care...

[Anonymous Coward]

Official Gentoo-Linux-Zealot translator-o-matic
By M, version 1.0

Gentoo Linux is an interesting new distribution with some great features. Unfortunately, it has attracted a large number of clueless wannabes and leprotards who absolutely MUST advocate Gentoo at every opportunity. Let's look at the language of these zealots, and find out what it really means...

"Gentoo makes me so much more productive."
"Although I can't use the box at the moment because it's compiling something, as it will be for the next five days, it gives me more time to check out the latest USE flags and potentially unstable optimisation settings."

"Gentoo is more in the spirit of open source!"
"Apart from Hello World in Pascal at school, I've never written a single program in my life or contributed to an open source project, yet staring at endless streams of GCC output whizzing by somehow helps me contribute to international freedom."

"I use Gentoo because it's more like the BSDs."
"Last month I tried to install FreeBSD on a well-supported machine, but the text-based installer scared me off. I've never used a BSD, but the guys on Slashdot say that it's l33t though, so surely I must be for using Gentoo."

"Heh, my system is soooo much faster after installing Gentoo."
"I've spent hours recompiling Fetchmail, X-Chat, gEdit and thousands of other programs which spend 99% of their time waiting for user input. Even though only the kernel and glibc make a significant difference with optimisations, and RPMs and .debs can be rebuilt with a handful of commands (AND Red Hat supplies i686 kernel and glibc packages), my box MUST be faster. It's nothing to do with the fact that I've disabled all startup services and I'm running BlackBox instead of GNOME or KDE."

"...my Gentoo Linux workstation..."
"...my overclocked AMD eMachines box from PC World, and apart from the third-grade made-to-break components and dodgy fan..."

"You Red Hat guys must get sick of dependency hell..."
"I'm too stupid to understand that circular dependencies can be resolved by specifying BOTH .rpms together on the command line, and that problems hardly ever occur if one uses proper Red Hat packages instead of mixing SuSE, Mandrake and Joe's Linux packages together (which the system wasn't designed for)."

"All the other distros are soooo out of date."
"Constantly upgrading to the latest bleeding-edge untested software makes me more productive. Never mind the extensive testing and patching that Debian and Red Hat perform on their packages; I've just emerged the latest GNOME beta snapshot and compiled with -O9 -fomit-instructions, and it only crashes once every few hours."

"Let's face it, Gentoo is the future."
"OK, so no serious business is going to even consider Gentoo in the near future, and even with proper support and QA in place, it'll still eat up far too much of a company's valuable time. But this guy I met on #animepr0n is now using it, so it must be growing!"

-

Re:Why do we care...

[HouseOfMisterE]

If I had any mod points, I would give them to you. E.

On my wish list

[ONU CS Geek]

If I really had to say I think we could do one thing better, it would be having a 'headless' install option for some of these devices.

There are times where I go and install software, and have to be in a different room or different area, that me physically being at the console for the entire installation is pratically impossible. It would be wonderful if there was an option to do a network install over https, or a network install over ssh, to get it up and working.

Just think how nice it would be to pop in a CD, sit back at your desk, go to an IP address, and volia, install your server without actually being there :)

Oh, well, just wishful thinking, unless anyone knows a good installer, wants to help write one, or knows of a free as in beer system to get something like that accomplished.

Ian

Re:On my wish list

[rossz]

My server is headless and sits on the closet. When I installed Debian on it, I had to unplug the monitor from my workstation long enough to get a basic system installed because I don't have a spare one lying around.

Just think how nice it would be to pop in a CD, sit back at your desk, go to an IP address, and volia, install your server without actually being there.

But what IP address? When I plug a new system into the router, it's going to get a semi-random IP address from the router's DHCP server. Don't get me wrong, I agree that being able to remotely install would be a great idea if the IP address problem can be resolved AND any security problems can be dealt with.

Re:On my wish list

[GirTheRobot]

Gentoo is an option. Pop in the cd, do a quick configure of the network card, start ssh (included on the install cd), then perform the install remotely. Of course the gentoo install is pretty involved (almost entirely manual). That or customize a Morphix cd (an easy to customize Knoppix clone, debian based) to load ssh or VNC on boot.

Re:On my wish list

[Ziviyr]

nmap will find the ip addy for you, assuming your router doesn't serve a page that actually says where DHCP leases were taken out.

Re:On my wish list

[Schwuk]

Fedora Core supports this - you can install via VNC. you can set a password, and you can configure it to connect to a listening VNC Viewer.

You only need the monitor to kick off the install and configure your NIC.

Have a look in the release notes, about a quarter of the way down.

Cheers,

Re:On my wish list

[Minna Kirai]

it's going to get a semi-random IP address from the router's DHCP server.

Run something like ping -b 192.168.0.0 and you'll get a response from every system on your lan. If its not an overwhelming number, you can pick out which of those is the new one.

Re:On my wish list

[burns210]

redhat has that option, btw.

Ananconda For Debain

[beforewisdom]

Does anyone know if the Debian developers are making an effort to use the techniques piorneered by Knoppix?

That would make Debian both one of the most solid distros and one of the most easiest distros at the same time.

Just curious.

I never would have gotten into Debian if not for the hard disk install of Knoppix

apt ported to rpm

[dark_day]

Since apt has been ported to the rpm format (by Connectiva) it would be nice to see picax extended to creation of isos for any rpm based distro using the apt-rpm port.

Why should I use this?

[Anonymous Coward]

"However there are features that are not yet working and it is not recommended for use in a production environment."

There is no end to criticism if MS or any other company releases something that's buggy. Why does OSS get a pass? Are we expected to beta test? Is that the future of software?

Easy way/Hard way

[shojo]

Of course, as a newbie who has wrestled with the install process for Debian quite a few times, screwing up and freaking out, it has been the REAL education I always wanted.
And it is the dumbing down of windows that drove me away. What kind of opinion can one have of human beings if you believe that you must always make it easier for them. Some people are smart. Some liked to be challenged, so long as it is not fruitless.
My machine is humming in a way I always dreamed it would. It took me a little over a year to go from totally uninformed (not even knowing what Linux was) to basically informed. When I look at windows with all their pictures and random names for the system functions, I can see the low opinion developers must have for the non-technical masses. The world of convenience is not unquestionably better for all. Sometimes it just makes us weak.

2 roads merging....

[josepha48]

It seems to me that the differences between debian and redhat are startig to merge. Redhat's new fedora project has the ability to use apt-get for rpm, which is basically the rpm version adaptation to apt-get for debian, and now debian is possibly going to start using anaconda for installs and cd.

So how long before the redhat-config-** are ported to debian is the next question.

The differences between these two may soon lie in just deb or rpm. Which is really better may be just a matter of preference, but it seems that there are more distros using rpm than deb, so will debian ever move deb to rpm or are they tied to deb?

Re:2 roads merging....

[josepha48]

"The concept of downloading software from a website could become obsolete, instead the web site would have a simple "type this: apt-get install " written in the 'how to install' page.

Who knows, perhaps it might go so far that users need only click a button, and provide a root password to install software, and they'll never see a prompt, let alone know what a "RPM" is."

Fedora has in its extras or something 'synaptic', I think that is how you spell it. Where it truely is a click this or click that. It is really sweet. It uses apt-get and basically allows you to brows the files and click install on a software package and figures out the dependancies. I use it alot now.

Extra Fluff... Ugh

[johnnybegood]

Well, I suppose it's what you're looking for out of a computer, but one of the best things about linux is it's compatibility with old hardware. Debian is my personal favorite of a distro because it's so streamlined. Only what you want when you want it. Fluff like anaconda (like RedHat) will only slow down slower machines like mine and decrease the performance.
On that note, is dselect really that bad? In the time it took me to learn the interface and to select (or deselect) all the packages that i wanted, the windows XP installer would have just about finished loading the SCSI, SATA, & RAID drivers, none of which I have the remote possibility of using.
Now here's where i get really scitzofrenic:
The good thing about this anaconda installer is that it will bring a wider user base to Debian (though many people will be wary because they heard from a friend of a friend that it's hard to install) and to Linux in general (I hope) which will in turn bring about better driver support and software releases to Linux (though maybe i'm just being idealistic)

C'mon moderators

[Anonymous Coward]

This is really old. You get mod points just for using cut'n'paste?

Re:Debian is dying

[seb249]

I have to bite on this one - having just installed a new debain system last night that is replacing a redhat 7.2 box as a mailserver/firewall.

In my work i deal with different linux distros ranging from Redhat 7.2 Mandrake 8.2, 9 9.1 and 9.2, and have played with Redhat 7.3 8.0 9 and am currently looking into rolling out Suse Open Exchange server.

IMO you need to choose the right tool for the right job.For a desktop system you may want all the gui tools and wiz bang features. You may not mind upgrading your machine every six months to stay on that "cutting edge" In the server space though - where you have a three year rotation of servers, stability is most important The slow relase cycles suit the server space down to the ground - if you really need a new feature or package and its not in "Stable" you are able to install it from testing or if needs be unstable. Yes you may get bugs and you may be beta testing but what do you think you are doing for those distros that release every six months.
Personally on my laptop i Run Mandrake 9.2, which does have some nice features (there are urpmi problems - broken mirrors, changing keys etc etc ) on my desktop though - i run Mandrake 9.1 (got sick of urpmi probs)

From the installs i have done of debian i have found that the apt system works very well - applies all the latest security patches during the install ( The mdk install security patch feature is broken in 9.2) and leaves your system very stable and with a little configuration - which you should be doing on the other distros anyway eg firewall you have a stable an secure machine that is well suited to a server.

One last point, I trust Debian for my personal firewall/server needs because changes and improvements are more driven from a technical perspective than marketing.

My only advice - The right tool for the right job.

Seb

Re:My experience with Debian

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush is making the best of the situation that Clinton handed him. Clinton passed off a broken economy along with his end-of-term scandals.

In all actuality, the worst thing facing America right now is the extreme anti-Republican sentiment the Democrats are all generating. They're sore at not being able to use Gore to achieve all the Socialist measures they want, so they're poisoning Bush's presidency every way they can.

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It's about damn time!!!

[shaitand]

Now you have the best of both worlds in one package. Both graphical and command line with redhat's hardware detection (the detection is a much bigger deal than the gui install to me, but I know alot of people who feel otherwise). On 99% of all setups redhat manages to detect every piece of hardware in the system and have everything configured correctly when all is said and done, no other system including some redhat knockoff's like mandrake manages this.

Debian has the best package management and repositories, where debian has stubbornly remained archaic in terms of the installer and hardware detection, redhat has done so in terms of package management. RPM and the Debian installer BOTH suck arse.

Now if we can get the other simple redhat configuration utilities ported over. Little things like netconfig may not be the biggest issue in the world, but certainly simplify setup for someone just started out. You should NOT have to know what a default gateway is just to plug the number in and get your system on the internet ;)

FS: Debian Case Badges

[Bodhammer]

I was playing drink and surf and over bought some case badges. Help me get rid of them and donate money to debian at the same time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =3642840115&category=41881&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =3642840800&category=41881&rd=1

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They're hard, but they're also unnecessary

[Nailer]

I think it can be argued that the Debian installer asks many questions that may not be easy to answer for a Linux newbie.

That's true, but the point is that most of those questions are unecessary. Every PCI device on my system has a number, and the Linux kernel comes with a map of device number to driver names.

I'm not a Linux newbie, but see it as a waste of time to answer silly questions about the modules I'd like to load for every bit of hardware in my system when my hardware is designed explicitly to avoid the need to do so.

Very pretty, but...

[carney1979]

I took a look at the Progeny installer. Very pretty. I had an empty hard drive so I gave it a whirl.

I CAN say don't try to select individual packages and don't try to install everything.

BOTH times it crashed and shut down.

I would have liked to see it work to see what I ended up with. Maybe another time...

David