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SCO Code to be Protected in Closed Court
An anonymous reader writes "SCO public relations director Blake Stowell today said that the company had secured permission to present the code alleged to have found its way into Linux to a closed court. Once again SCO is refusing to tell Linux users just what code they claim is infringing on their IP rights, while still threatening to sue corporations running Linux."
The question, of course, is whether the claim is true or not -- it is coming from SCO, after all. There's a good chance it could be true, though, because a big part of SCO's claim is for trade secret violations -- which require the alleged secret to, well, remain secret (disclosure does not effect copyright, but it does trade secrets). It only makes sense for them to seek a protective order, and it does not really effect the case from the judge's and lawyers' standpoint. But that doesn't make it suck any less for the rest of us who want to see the code for ourselves.
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
This protects the court, because if the code itself became part of the court records, SCO would have to sue the court itself for violation of SCO intellectual property.
"We find this Court to be in contempt of SCO!!!"
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
IBM kill this when they feel so inclined, so just pretend SCO doesn't exist.
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
"We can't just open this up to the public. The minute we open it up we have in fact opened it up to the public and we can't restrict it in the future from a proprietary standpoint," said SCO CEO Darl McBride at conference in August this year.
So they're afraid that releasing the code could encourage other people to take it and integrate into their own OSes? Yeah, there's a good idea. I wouldn't touch anything SCO-code-related with a 20-foot pole.
... who can modify the kernel, if needed. At least someone getts to peek ...
If they are proved to be wrong, the code will come out anyway.
If they are right, their valuable source code will be released on the internet and lose all its value if it is open court.
A court case shouldn't be allowed to trample over people's rights. It's quite normal for commercially secretive cases to be held in camera (but only for the sensitive bits) - such as trade secrets, and other similar issues.
Well if they'd released it into Open Court they'd have had to sue the US Judicial System, so maybe the Judges just got scared ?
I can imagine it now
Darl McBride : "By forcing our code to be shown in open court the US Judicial system has infringed on our copyright and we demand a royalty from every sentence now uttered in court which is a derivative of ours... which is all of them"
Next week SCO sue the Department of Defense for using SCO infringing software in the conquest of Iraq.... and demand Iraq as payment.
Darl McBride leader of Iraq...
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
They're going to show it to IBM as well. Not to worry, IBM's army of blue-suited LawDrones will tear it apart line by line.
Trolling is a art,
I'm just quoting from memory, but an old press release said something like,
"Open source leaders have refused to take action [and remove the code]".
And then a few sentences later,
"We don't want them to take out the code because then we can't sue them".
Stupid bitches.
What prevents someone who's being sued for having SCO code from saying, in closed court, of course, "OK, we'll replace it"? And then, perhaps, release their changed code to the public, not necessarily identifying the SCO code but just showing possible replacements inside Linux that people could place?
I just wait for them to sue a Linux end-user... should be fun.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I believe that's their point. A judge is hardly technically qualified to determine whether something is a derivative work, much less analyze the lifeline of the code in question. Avoiding the technical experts gives them their only fighting chance.
-j
The fact that IBM's lawyers will be there, too, perhaps?
...published on the Internet by way of the alleged inclusions into Linux. It's no longer a Trade Secret and prior precedents say as much. I have trouble believing Blake Stowell's clams and I would have even more trouble with the court letting that one go down.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
"We can't just open this up to the public. The minute we open it up we have in fact opened it up to the public and we can't restrict it in the future from a proprietary standpoint," said SCO CEO Darl McBride at conference in August this year.
The fact that I have seen your code does not make it part of the public domain. This is just silly.
What exactly is Darl trying to say here...I can no longer read around his incredibly twisted language. I think the only reason why they can't open the "offending" code up to the community is because they don't want Linux to be fixed, they want it to die. If all they wanted was money, they wouldn't have bothered to keep the code a closely guarded secret.
Another reason, ofcourse, is that there is NO offending code, and they want to prevent a public hue and cry over bits and pieces of for and while loops.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Once again SCO is refusing to tell Linux users just what code they claim is infringing on their IP rights, while still threatening to sue corporations running Linux.
So far, SCO is only engaging in vague threats about future action. They haven't actually sued anybody over Linux-related copyright issues. Yes, that's still scummy, but until they actually do something, it's just a nuisance. I suppose someone like Redhat could sue them for business damages, but that's it, AFAIK.
Let's just wait and see if they try any specific threats without letting us know what code they think is in violation.
This is not a good sign for the Linux community. If they were going to publicly state what code has been infringed on, then it would be easier for everyone to go through it. But, SCO only has to disclose the code that they think has been stolen in a private court, then only the people who are involved with the trial will have the opportunity to go through the evidence. It just puts more work on Linus and co.
What is SCO protecting?? Every package in thier distro is an open source package.
I dont understand the need for secrecy, the issue here I thought was whether or not IBM copied code into the linux kernal... the kernal source code is freely availble to anyone who wishes to view it. What is secret about thier code exactly??
Another SCO FUD tactic... wont someone just buy them and close the doors to this forever??
As several sources, including Bruce Perens' fine analysis of code fragments thus far disclosed, have indicated, some of what SCO is claiming as their IP in fact stems from material that were in the public domain as far back as the 70's. If this can be established beyond the shadow of a doubt in court, then they should have no right to keep private that which is already public and the codes can ultimately be disclosed.
It's somewhat similar to my attempting to keep the contents of "Encyclopaedia Brittanica" secret by claiming IP rights, only to realize later that I never owned it, do not own it, and will never own it. Therefore, I would have no right to keep it confidential since my original claim of ownership is debunked.
Do you think that the court can be made to understand that the only reason SCO doesn't want anyone to know what code is infringing is that two hours later, nobody is going to be using that particular code any more and therefore won't owe SCO anything?
Technoli
What really blows me away about this whole debacle is the value of SCOX. At around $15/share, this same time last year it was only a few bucks per share. Someone's buying this crap and someone's going to get raped. People better check to see their mutual fund managers aren't taking them for a ride. All these shady court arrangements are only prolonging the inevitable decline of SCO, and when that happens a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money. I hope the SEC is looking into the stock dealings.
Then it's just a matter of whether it's worth it to keep fighting for the right to use the existing code and the scope of SCO's rights in anything. But on a going-forward basis, at least Linux can become SCO-free.
We can't just open this up to the public. The minute we open it up we have in fact opened it up to the public
Thank you for your brilliant insight!
Judge Damon J. Keith, in the Cincinnati ruling, opined that "Democracies die behind closed doors."
Little surprise, Darl figures SCO will survive behind closed doors.
And it is true that SCO will survive only as long as it is behind closed doors. Open the doors, let the light shine, and let people pore over the code .... SCO is then as good as dead ....
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
I think people are confusing this case with an open-source v. open-source fight.
While I appreciate the "community-nature" of open-source and Linux, the average user does not have a right to see the infringing code just because he or she feels personally affronted by SCO. If you were personally named in the lawsuit, then you should be able to see the code.
Assuming SCO has any valid case, it is going to be determined in a Court of Law, not the Court of Slashdot. If SCO happens to win its case against IBM, et al., then the "proprietary code" in which it claims Linux infringed would no longer be "proprietary" if SCO released its source to every Joe Linux-User who asked for it. You can't expect a company to shoot itself in the foot just to prove a case in a Court of Law (though I guess Slashdotters might expect it from SCO).
Let IBM's goggle of lawyers fight this out. My sense is that they have half-a-clue as to what amounts to infringing code. Anyway, with IBM on its side, it's like having Daddy Sawbuck's pay the Open Source community's legal fees!
-A
If not before, then when they've lost their case, their market and their reputation and the shareholders agree to give what's left of SCO to ESR in return for his VA Linux stock ;-)
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
Not only is it normal, but I imagine if the magistrate initially opened the court up, it could lead to a charge of prejudice and a reversible error on appeal.
The court does not get a copy of discovery materials. They only see what the parties choose to submit into evidence. However, the next hearing will likely discuss that evidence in enough detail that, unfortunately, it makes sense for the hearing to be closed.
I suppose that IBM could move to have the transcript released if they can claim that there was nothing covered under the protective order discussed. And, particularly given that Kevin McBride admitted in court the last time that they have no evidence from Sys V and that they don't have a copy of AIX, I would imagine that any evidence SCO submits will only come from Linux and that it would then be easy for IBM to argue for opening the transcript.
/*
String Copy PLUS(tm)
(c) AT&T,SCO
*/
char *sppy(const char *s2) {
static char s[100];
strncpy(s,s2,200);
return(s);
}
For those of you that need a constant SCO fix ... it seems the place to be is on the Yahoo finance boards
General consensus is that the stock will tank any day now , I'm looking forward to seeing the blood run freely.
OpenOffice tips:richhillsoftware.com
First they are claiming that EVERYONE has seen their code. Now they are preventing those same people from seeing what they already have. Isn't this an admission there is nothing to see?
In other words, because of the openness of Linux, their code is already available to anyone. They have nothing to gain by keeping it secret now UNLESS it has always been secret.
Why have 1 person driving a backhoe when you could employ 20 with shovels?
While the closed proceeding is disappointing to Linux advocates, it is not as much as a set back as one might think. After all, IBM still will get access to the code. With IBM's resources, I'm sure they can skillfully analyze and debunk SCO's claims. While we cannot do so, our analyses would not have mattered to the court anyway. Those who may have been invovled the the "alleged" code might be ready to receive some inquiries from IBM. Namely the two former SCO/Caldera employees, Linus, etc.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
IBM could just publish a listing of the code which is not in dispute.
"No your honor, we didn't release the code SCO said was copied into Linux. We just released a listing of what SCO says isn't theirs. Surely that isn't secret..."
if the GPL is an amalgamation of individual copyrights collected together, then SCO's code needs to be delineated for the end users. If the GPL is an umbrella copyright, then all of the developers need to know what is infringing so that it can be removed.
The secret is going to be out. Whether it happens now, when the accused is standing in court, or later when the judgement is handed down and something has to be done about the infringement, it is going to be out. The only way the secret could stay a secret is if the judge threw the bums out. Not a bad option, in my opinion.
At this point, a well-timed "leak" is in order. Those silly IBM lawyers and their unsecured FTP servers.
Hey... Isn't this what Freenet was made for?
The ______ Agenda
For the court to release SCO's source code into the public realm would be absurd. Now we all know it's not their code, but this hasn't been proven in court yet. What if Microsoft stole your code and you had to publicize it in order to prove your point? I think IBM will be able to pull the resources together to refute SCO's claims.
In way this makes sense - SCO should not have to show its source code to compare with the alleged infringing linux code. On the other hand, *if* they win and*if* the infringing code is removed from the linux source, a simplecomparison of the pre and post source will clearly show the infringing code.
I think the crux of the agrument to reveal this in closed court is to avoid SCO having to show its code in public. They should have the right to keep their source "closed".
Don't get me wrong - I think Darl and Co are all smoking crack -but they should be allowed to retain the rights to propietary source code.
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
Under the terms of discovery, the discloser may
label certain parts "confidential." If challenged
the onus is on the discloser to justify the
confidentiality.
The transcript of the court session is public and
this standard protective order is the only thing
mentioned. I am quite certain there was no
further side-deal with the magistrate.
While I would not put it past SCO to label
everything confidential, that would be an abuse
of the process. I doubt the magistrate would
allow it.
Stowell's announcement is just SCO's usual
disingeniuty in reporting the facts. Remember
that this is the person who claimed the judge
"flipped a coin" in deciding to rule in favour of
IBM's motion to compel discovery.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have trouble believing Blake Stowell's clams...
Then don't listen to the man's clams. What do mollusks know about jurisprudence anyway?
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
That's not true. Courts have ruled, routinely, that the full version of a long contract that cannot be displayed at time of purchase may be included along with delivery. Generally, if this requires the consumer to waive rights, then the consumer is entitled to a refund if s/he does not agree with the new terms in the EULA.
However, EULAs in general are NOT illegal, for the simple matter that they wouldn't FIT on the outside of the box.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
In other words, this is typical SCO FUD and misrepresentation of the facts, and in this case, facts that are already old and well known to those following the case. SCO has not won any victory here; quite the contrary. The alleged code (if it exists at all) will almost certainly be available after some very standard legal procedures.
There is truly nothing to see here; zdnet got suckered by a SCO press release. Regrettable, as they should have known better by now, but aside from allowing Darl et. al. to defraud some day traders and invenstors for another few days, it really doesn't amount to anything at all.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
It's official! The Santa Cruz Organisation (SCO, $CO) have been taking lessons from their close acronymical relatives the Church of Scientology (CoS, Co$). Don't believe me? The evidence is quite compelling:
Extortion
Spurious Copyright Lawsuits
Unwarranted Secrecy
Playing to the media
Paranoia
Dead-agenting
Yup, it's only a matter of time before SCO declares itself a religion, McBride declares himself God, and the staff are made to buy e-meters, exorcise their body thetans and start work on a remake of Battlefield: Earth... remember - SCOentology, you heard it here first, people. :)
These sigs are more interesting tha
I realize that this is civil and not criminal court, but doesn't IBM have a right to see the evidence against it so they can mount a defense. SCO would have to present a section of code, then IBM would have to rush to produce documentation of the lineage of that section, whether it came from "Ancient" (pre-V7/32V) AT&T UNIX, CSRG/Berkley/BSD, SysV or minix/linux/*BSD and whether the code is "known" (ie Lion's book, Pre-92 BSD sources, K&R, et al). Such a proceedure would cause a very slow, stop/start trial that could carry on forever.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
If they do in fact have code which is protected by copyright, then they have nothing to fear. Copyright still protects things that have been seen by the public -- it's called publication. It seems to me that the only reason copyright exists in the first place is to encourage people to publish their works by allowing them to still own a work once it is in the open.
If, on the other hand, SCO believes that it's control over the code is only based on its status as a trade secret, then they have no recourse against the Linux community, only (theoretically) IBM. Keeping any infringing code secret wouldn't help.
It seems to me that there are only a few possible reasons that SCO wants to keep all this secret, which are unrelated to their stated reasons:
1) They need Linux to continue infringing as long as possible. My guess is that the length of infringement, which will stop 24 hours or so after public disclosure, will directly affect any increase the damages paid by IBM.
2) They want to catch IBM in a contempt of court charge. If the code is sealed by the court, and it becomes suddenly removed before being made public, then SCO can say that IBM leaked information, and so is in contempt of the secrecy order. This makes IBM look very bad, and gives SCO a strong argument that IBM has clearly shown itself to be untrustworthy with information. It's an interesting gambit, relying on the fact that the information will need to be widely available within IBM for its defense, and bets that at least one of those people will spill the beans.
3) They have no idea who actually contributed the code in question. If they open it up to the public, there's always the possibility that some expert in the field will stand up and say, "No, I wrote that code, not IBM, and I have never seen SCO's code". Opening the code suddenly gives IBM a very large army of people who will study and scour the code SCO releases to find any evidence in IBM's favor whatsoever. With it secret, the burden is entirely on IBM, and so the process will take longer and evidence may be missed. This also plays into #2 above.
4) There is no code. SCO's allegations have been a delicate web of half-truths and bravado, exposure of which will mean certain death to the company. It will lose its case, it will not be purchased, and its lawyers will not be paid.
1. You do not talk about Open Source Fight Club.
is to prove 'infringement', and then force the code to remain in Linux. The 'infringing' code is already public knowledge, but they have made the very important step of tricking the judge into protecting the secrecy of something that widely distributed and still available to anyone. This logically implies that the same judge will force the 'secret' to be kept if and when he/she rules on the side of SCO. If IBM can't publically disclose what the infringing code, they are hard pressed to remove and replace it, and forced to leave the infringing code in. With a judgment that Linux is infringing, SCO gains massive leverage to charge anything they want to for someone else's OS.
... it all depends on how bribable our legal system is, either directly or indirectly. SCO got a lot of clams from investors recently ...
Infuriate left and right
IBM releases an "update" to the Linux kernel, which does not include any of the SCO code. They are going out of their way to avoid hurting SCO, because their release of Linux has removed any SCO code they don't want the public to see. They don't tell anyone what SCO's code is directly, but instead release a derivative work of legitimate GPL code, using only legitimate GPL code and not SCO code that SCO doesn't want revealed.
Of course, this is demonstration by absence. However, since Linux already exists in the open, the code SCO is not talking about is not secret except in the fact that no one knows what they are claiming.
I find this arguement very interesting:
"We can't just open this up to the public. The minute we open it up we have in fact opened it up to the public and we can't restrict it in the future from a proprietary standpoint," said SCO CEO Darl McBride at conference in August this year.
What is he refering to by "open this up"? If it's code in the Linux kernel, it's already open in the sense of having been seen. If they have any LEGITIMATE claims, it is NOT "opened up" in the sense of everyone being able to use it. The only thing they would "open up" would be how we can get their crap (if any) out of the kernel, and if they're going to try to make proprietary arguments on THAT basis either they are totally out of our minds or our IP related laws in the country have utterly failed. I can't believe the judge didn't ask them to explain how code already in the public eye as part of the Linux kernel can possibly be further harmed by identification, and how they expect to make money off of not identifying it publicly. The only possible answer is a study in absurdity. I want to hear them say "If we let any knowledge out of how to remove our code, we won't be able to try and force Linux users to pay us for future versions" in front of a judge.
I suppose the court isn't able or required to look into the business model of SCO, but come on.
If this nonsense drags on long enough, I say we put an intense concentration of effort into EROS, make it functional at or near the Linux level with it's advanced concepts in place, and introduce the world to a whole new scale of OS security and robustness, and make them wish they had never even heard of the Linux kernel. Maybe IBM would be willing to back such an effort - they developed some of the original ideas behind it, and by now they probably appreciate open source's potential or they would have abandoned it. They say a good fighter never hits where the opponent is expecting the punch, and that would sure be a pretty KO bunch for SCO.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
"The Court of Slashdot", I like it...
Judge: "Mr. ForeGeek of the Jury, have you reached a verdict?"
FGOTJ: "Yes, Your Honor"
Judge: "What say you?"
FGOTJ: "We find the defendant guilty of Trolling in the first degree"
Judge: "I sentence the defendant to -1, Flamebait!"
That should teach 'em! Or not...
And remember kids: Never trust a computer you can actually lift.
This all assumes they really do have good instances of infringement to disclose to IBM.
... something. If they come up with anything at all, it is likely to be shot down fast and hard by IBM.
... exactly nothing?
Pretty much only SCO and a few suckemup analysts believe that.
Pretty much the rest of the world doesn't believe it.
They have 30 days to come up with
And then, who cares if it is public or not?
What if they come up with
Infuriate left and right
I think the point of the parent post is that this whole case is getting stale.
Just get some legal ruling and lets move on to the next step.
1. Court rules SCO has a case. Lets move to the next step.
2. Court rules SCO has no case. Lets move to the next step.
In the end this case is just one step in many before we get to a conclusion.
This day-time soap opera is getting old.
In the end, the OpenSource hordes will go to any extremes, including re-programming the whole thing in some pre-alphas version of Microsoft LISP, to kill off SCO claims.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Anyone want to lend Linus a couple of lawyers so he can sue SCO for tarnishing his trademark? A C&D preventing SCO from mentioning Linux in their press releases might put a hitch in Darls giddyup.
--
E_NOSIG
The executive board of SCO consists of:
Darl C. McBride
Chris Sontag
Robert K. Bench
Reg Broughton
Sean Wilson
Larry Gasparro
Jeff Hunsaker
Ralph J. Yarro III
Steve Cakebread
Edward E. Iacobucci
R. Duff Thompson
Darcy Mott
K. Fred Skousen
Thomas P. Raimondi, Jr
If you see any of these people in years following the implosion of SCO, do not give them a job. Do not enter into contracts with them. Do not loan them your car. They have proven themselves incapable of planning for the future of a company and incapable of behaving like mature partners in the sphere of business. At a time when SCO desperately needs to be investing in research and development, these people are plunging the company into bankruptcy. They're taking a tremendous gamble with their shareholders money, a gamble which even if successful would only mean residuals on existing Linux implementations in the US, and a painful migration for everyone else to OpenBSD. They're betting everyone else's money on a long shot, and should be held accountable for their irresponsible actions.
Once again, those names are
Darl C. McBride
Chris Sontag
Robert K. Bench
Reg Broughton
Sean Wilson
Larry Gasparro
Jeff Hunsaker
Ralph J. Yarro III
Steve Cakebread
Edward E. Iacobucci
R. Duff Thompson
Darcy Mott
K. Fred Skousen
Thomas P. Raimondi, Jr
The ______ Agenda
In Soviet Russia, corporations obey courts.
"SCO characterises the licenses as a source of 'immunity' from future intellectual property claims."
If I were to say "I own a lot of code in Microsoft's OS" and then offer a license to Windows users offering "immunity" from me suing them, and all the while not revealing any evidence in order to prevent Microsoft or the users from eliminating the components I say are causing them to owe me $$, how would that be looked upon by the press and the courts? What if I generated a lot of press saying:
"My ancient DOS code is the core of Windows! End users should pay me a license fee or face lawsuits!"
"I can't reveal why my code justifies this demand or what it is since that would damage my ability to leverage my IP."
"Microsoft cannot release a patch or update to resolve this issue - the code is too deeply entrenched. Plus, the rest of Windows is a derivative work, including things like NTFS."
The responses would be a) Windows is at fault, not the End Users and b) No tikee, no laundry. Show evidence or booted out the court door. Now, this is what SCO is doing to Linux, but somehow the fact that the author's price for Linux is $0 makes the End Users responsible????? What makes $0 special as opposed to $X? Why are End Users suddenly no longer as innocent in Linux as they are in Windows?
Oh, and now apparently acting decently and acting in good faith are now liabilities. Allowing someone a chance to fix a problem or a mistake is against corporate policy since it's more profitable to try and make them pay through the nose for it for eternity. Oh, and make anyone who benefits from that mistake, however unknowingly, also pay. Yay corporatism.
This whole thing is a crock. The saying "No good deed ever goes unpunished" certainly seems to be true for the open source community. But of course, "good deeds" are a threat to commercial suppliers of helpful services and products, and therefore are no part of a proper capitalistic system. Lord, what a messed up world we (or at least SCO) live in.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
It is my understanding that this is one risk of "trade secret". If someone develops something the same time as you, but independently ('course, there could be issues of determining independence), then you don't have any claim to the idea because you did not disclose it. This is one aspect of patents, actually: you are making some technology public, but the patent gives you exclusive rights for the patent term. You are trading public knowledge for exclusive use. If I develop some widget in my basement, and some guy on the other side of the country does the same and we both sell it without protecting the idea, we don't have any mechanism for protection.
The fact that SCO is claiming "trade secret" could possibly be an advantage: "Hey folks, well their code was secret so we had to come up with our own way to do it, and we did. But since it was math, there was only really one way to do it, so it looks the same." (This you might be able to prove by giving 6 people some differential equations and having them solve it - my guess is they will all arrive at the same answer (if they know what they're doing, at any rate)).
So, in summary, do "trade secrets" have any protection if they are not stolen? If I make a competing technology for one that is a "trade secret" that does the same thing but without copying the guts, is there any grounds on which the offended party may seek damanges? Is that not part of the risk of keeping an idea "secret"?
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
You can't have it both ways. You allow the code to be used, or you say "this is mine, get your own!"
Jeez, only in Amerika, can you threaten legal action against someone and not have to tell them what law was broken. What happened to simple cease and desist? "This is my code and you have 30 days to stop using my IP."
I don't know why everybody is making such a big deal over this. If you want to see the infringing code get it from sco. They will make it available (provided you sign a NDA).
Taken directly from the SCO Linux IP License FAQ.
15. Is SCO willing to show any examples of source-code violations to Linux users?
SCO has been showing examples of direct line-by-line copying of UNIX code into Linux to hundreds of industry analysts, reporters, customers, partners, and industry influencers since June of this year. To view this code, interested parties have had to sign a non-disclosure agreement verifying that they would keep this code in confidence. SCO continues to identify and show this code to parties willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
There you go, talk with SCO, sign the NDA and start grep'ing the source tree, then lets really see if SCO has anything.
Someone needs to explain to the judge that SCO's claim is ridiculous as a matter of law. Assuming SCO proves their claim, as a matter of law IBM must be allowed to remove the infringing code. The code for Linux containing SCO's code is already available to the public, and the now-clean code will be available to the public per the terms of the GPL (which IBM would still have to abide by). A simple diff of the two will reveal exactly the code SCO's trying to keep unrevealed. The only way to prevent this would be to either prohibit IBM from curing the infringement (not legal) or to pull in every other Linux contributor and take away their right to license their own intellectual property (the parts that don't belong to SCO) under terms they find agreeable (again not legal, remedy doesn't extend that far beyond the plaintiff's own IP).
10 SCO says "X is confidential"
20 IBM appeals to the judge
30 The court rules on whether X is not
40 GOTO 10
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
The news would be something along the lines of: The Orlando Magic ban audiences from attending games because 'we can't make baskets when people are looking'.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
But I believe you are correct about trade secrets and parallel development.
SCO might have a case IF they could show that SCO showed IBM the trade secrets SCO was using under contract and that IBM then released those to Linux.
So, SCO has to identify the code they claim is a "trade secret". For some reason, SCO has been very, Very, VERY reluctant to do so in court.
Then SCO has to show that there was a contract covering that code signed with IBM (or one of the companies that IBM now owns and that the contract was still binding when ownership changed) and that IBM had access to that code PRIOR to that code being added to Linux.
IF (and that's a big IF) both of those items are met, then IBM needs to show that the person/team that submitted that code to Linux did not have access to the SCO code.
Trade secrets have a problem in that it is up to the company with those secrets to protect them and take REASONABLE precautions against them leaking out.
Now, if SCO shows the code and the contracts and IBM cannot show that the code was clean, IBM can still come back and say that since no one in the Linux kernel developers' community can IDENTIFY THE SCO CODE, the "trade secret" is still a secret.
Folks,
.... So, in the USA, Linux would have underground dealers and eventually the FBI and ATFS (Alien Technology Free Software) agents would be arresting folks like me and you. The prison sentences will be comparable with cocaine and heroin dealers ... (I know, but ...) look at PA-1+2, DMCA, HDA, ... directions (forget the US Constitution protecting US citizens). In other words, SCO is already in their grave the world community will not allow this frivolous BS to invade their sovereign nations. As for the USA ... we wait to see ...?
(1) SCO is hiding their lies. Legal wrangling by SCO to find a favorable (technology incompetent) court is a waste of corporate financial resources and burdens the recourses of interested others. SCO is the only party in any possible case that does not want to resolve these problems ASAP. Rather than a rush to court by SCO, it appears SCO is in a rush to scam and defraud businesses internationally. SCO needs to withdraw from the game they are playing, or play and lose, before some State Attorney General initiates a criminal investigation.
(2) SCO could win in a USA court and lay-claim to Linux. SCO would never win in a Canada, EU, China, India, French, Russian, British, Irish, Scot, German,
The USA FLAG waived proud and high, as the USA Constitution ideals died in Congress.
OldHawk777
Reality is a self-induced hallucination.
Plutocratic Capitalist perverts subverting Pluralistic Democracy and Open Economy are as clueless as Marie Antoinette and King Louis XVI (1755-1793).
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Tonight on BBC 4: Clamofibophobia -- are bivalve mollusks lying to you?
As a public service to the /. community, let me review the relative truthfulness of various members of the animal kingdom.
A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear that only the other one snores.
Lets file a class action law suit agains SCO. They are threating us with no proof. I would guess the EFF might be intrested in this.
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
If there's a rational here, I would (seriously) appreciate an explanation.
So Ralph J. Yarro III is a member of both.
Doesn't that mean that we should get rid of Qt in all open souce projects?
Maybe it'd be a good idea to not only avoid "business" with SCO and their boardmembers but even any business related to the other companies whos boards they occupy.
k2r
Ah, another victim of SCO's dishonesty.
Look back over the case that SCO filed against IBM. SCO is not claiming that IBM ripped off code SCO wrote or already owned.
I want to say that again because it's the crux of SCO's lies: SCO is not claiming that IBM ripped off code that SCO wrote or already owned.
What SCO is claiming is that code that IBM wrote for SCO was also included in Linux, allegedly contrary to IBM's license.
Essentially, SCO is claiming IBM had a "no compete" clause somewhere in that license. I don't know if they did or not. Even if they did, I don't know if they contributed code to Linux in contravention of the clause.
But please let's not let SCO distort the question of fact: they have never claimed that pre-existing code owned by SCO was added to Linux. They have claimed that code was simultaneously added to Linux and (I think; somebody correct me here) AIX in violation of IBM's license with SCO.
All's true that is mistrusted
In lawsuits in federal district courts (and most state courts as well), the rules of discovery provide that opposing parties can get the other side to produce any information that is "reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of relevant, admissible evidence." Federal Rule of Civil Procedure (FRCP) 26(b)(1). This means that litigants have some leeway. They are not limited to asking for evidence that is admissible in court but rather can get ANY information that would LEAD to the discovery of admissible evidence. In other words, litigants do not get free, unfettered access to each others' files, but can go on limited "fishing expeditions" so long as they can show that they have some reasonable expectation of finding fish where they are fishing.
That said, assume (as the judge must at this stage of the litigation) that SCO actually does have some trade secret or confidentiality interests to protect in its source code. That secret or confidential status would be forever lost if disclosed to the world. SCO should not lose any valid rights it has simply because it sued to enforce those rights. (Take it easy flamers - we're making assumptions here still - keep reading!).
Obviously there are tensions among the right of a party to get information from an adversary to defend itself, the right of an opposing party to protect its trade secrets or confidential information, and the public's right to have judicial proceedings in the open. The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure balance these interests in Rule 26(c) which proivides for protective orders. Such orders are issued to keep confidential information from becoming public. There are several features which ensure that the use of such orders is not too problematic:
-
The material produced under such an order must still be produced to the other side (and potentially the court if the litigation goes that far. In this case, I think everyone agrees that IBM has a substantial interest in gettin gthe information to defend itself. I also think most Slashdot readers would agree that in this case, IBM's interests are closely aligned with those of the Open Source community.
- The information claimed to be confidential must actually be confidential. That means that information which is not truly confidential cannot be made confidential because a party produces the information under the terms of a protective order.
-
The judge is free to reveal anything he determines is not confidential. A protective order is called an interlocutory order, meaning that it is one of those types of orders issued to keep the suit moving forward and does not finally determine the rights of the parties. Basically, it is the way the Court manages litigation. Because these orders do not (usually) determine the rights of parties, the judge is free to modify or revoke those orders at any time.
Now for all those who want desperately to see SCO's source code, I ask this: WHY do you want to see it so badly? If you enjoy reading source so much that you just HAVE to see SCO's code, then I suggest you sign SCO's nondisclosure and get it. If however, you want to do your own comparison to Linux code, then I submit that the community as a whole has no need to see what SCO has. IBM will adequately protect the community becuse its interests are so closely aligned with those of the community. If your burning desire to do a comparison is to prove that SCO's claims have no merit, again, IBM will do this job just fine. Sit back, be patient, and trust that IBM will defend itself (and the community) vigorously.Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
You're thinking of criminal law, this is a civil case. But even in criminal cases, the public can be excluded from certain evidence and testimony. Only a defendant has the right to see all of it.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
The term for what you're describing is misappropriation. A misappropriated trade secret is still considered secret and anyone that uses it is committing a crime. At least that was the theory before cases like DeCSS and Verance/SDMI/Felten where the trade secret holders are desperately trying to apply the old rules to the international internet.
The key cases on the misappropriation doctrine seems to be E. I. DuPont de Nemours Powder Co. v. Masland where a competitor took aerial photos of a chemical plant & claimed it was reverse engineering. The reasonableness of a measure to discover inner workings was at issue.
It's still a wierd area. Printed circuit board layouts can be copyrighted but you can look at one, extract a schematic and lay out your own board. The circuit design could receive patent protection, but not trade secret protection.
ObLink
This thing about SCO wanting to keep the code a secret is a non-issue at the moment. In actuality, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense for SCO to want to do this.
Look at it this way: You have some code you claim is proprietary and you sue someone for using it. Now, if you can keep the code a secret save for the courtroom, and you lose the case, then you still can keep that code proprietary and continue to charge licenses from people who obtain it directly from you.
But say instead you're forced to reveal the code to the public and you lose the case. Now you're up shit's creek because you have this code that was proven not to be infringing, but you can't claim it to be proprietary anymore because now everyone can see it. Personally, I'd be more worried if SCO went the other way and was more than happy to show the public. They would not do that unless they thought they had the case all sewn up. The fact that they will not reveal it to the public means they're hedging their bets and want the opportunity to continue using the code if they lose the case (assuming there is anything left the company afterward, but that's another story).
So don't worry about this quite yet. The code WILL be shown to the party that needs to know, namely IBM. IBM is not stupid. The splendid conduct they have shown before and during these proceedings shows that they know what they are doing. They can shoot holes in SCO's argument almost as good as the FOSS community can. And if they need help, they can rightly argue that they should be allowed to have outside experts view the code (read: Linux kernel maintainers). And in the unlikely case that SCO wins, they will be forced to reveal the code, as it is the ONLY way that it can be removed from the offending software.
Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
After all, the AT&T vs BSD case was sealed, too.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
You are correct in what SCO has filed and that is all that matters at this point.
:)
It might have been a non-compete, or it might have been some other restriction.
Until SCO identifies the code, we won't know what contracts, if any, cover that code.
As for SCO's claims that pre-existing code was added to Linux, SCO did claim that in their NDA presentations.
SCO has filed ONE lawsuit against IBM for contract violations. What those specific violations are will have to wait for the specific code to be identified so the specific provisions of those specific contracts covering that specific code can be specified.
That is what the judge just ordered.
But, SCO has made lots of public statements about copyrights, patents, trade secrets and implied other things under "Intellectual Property". That crap is what gets reported by all the "journalists" and "analysts" out there.
I think it is good to have each of the possible scenarios discussed and what would happen under each of them.
More importantly, we could look at past cases to see what the standards were and what the legal outcome was.
Its just that SCO finds that even they don't fully know which lines it is either. Its embarrassing for them so they have resorted to a closed court.
If it takes a closed court for IBM to discover what the hell SCO are going on about then so be it but fact remains that NO ONE wants the SCO code if it compromises the freedoms that the GPL affords us with respect to the Linux kernel.
I'm happy to pay good money for a product or service but all I want to know is what exactly am I paying my money for ? Its REAL simple SCO: simply tell me what I am getting for my money. I'll show you my money if you show me your code. Deal ?.
Then I can make a call if I want it or not. Always wanted to look at OpenBSD/FreeBSD but its the freedoms of the GPL that keep me with Linux.
Revenge Of The Nerds
Daniel Lyons, 12.16.03, 12:30 PM ET
NEW YORK - In the real world, Brenda Banks is a 54-year-old grandmother in Greer, S.C., a former warehouse supervisor who teaches rubber-stamping arts and crafts classes. But online she transforms into "br3n," a passionate user of Linux software who cruises Web sites posting smash-mouth messages about SCO Group. So far Banks has posted more than 1,500 messages on SCO's Yahoo! message board alone--including five on Thanksgiving.
"I feel very strongly about it," says Banks, who runs Linux on a six-year-old Acer home computer. "They want to come and stab Linux. It's just not right."
Banks has joined thousands of others in a rag-tag Linux army dedicated to the destruction of SCO (nasdaq: SCOX - news - people ), the Lindon, Utah, company that last March sued IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people ), claiming IBM put code from Unix, for which SCO holds some copyrights, into Linux, which is distributed for free. SCO also aims to collect license fees from companies that use Linux. IBM denies SCO's charges and has countersued. SCO also has been sued by Red Hat (nasdaq: RHAT - news - people ), a Linux distributor.
Linux crusaders insist SCO's claims have no merit and that SCO's evil managers will all end up in jail. They write to government agencies complaining about SCO, and some have even threatened to boycott the Royal Bank of Canada (nyse: RY - news - people ), one of SCO's investors. SCO's management has hired bodyguards after receiving death threats. Robert Enderle, an analyst who believes SCO's claims might be legitimate, says he and others also have been threatened, and says this "techno-insanity" verges on terrorism.
How do people get so emotionally involved with a piece of office equipment? "People are seeing something going on that they really consider evil," says Bruce Perens, a well-known Linux developer and independent consultant. "These people are just showing moral outrage."
Linux was developed collaboratively by thousands of people around the world, all working for free. Now some of those folks are becoming amateur legal researchers and financial sleuths too. Banks says she has complained about SCO to the Securities and Exchange Commission. "There's after-hours trading going on," she says. Isn't this common? "Not that I'm aware of." Moreover, sometimes SCO shares drop during the day, then rise in after-hours trading. "That raises alarm bells," she says. "Maybe there are some preference trades going on." And what are preference trades? "I don't know," she says.
Much of the rhetoric is ordinary cheerleading: "we will WIN. sco is TOAST," Banks wrote recently on Yahoo! (nasdaq: YHOO - news - people ). But sometimes it gets ugly, as when Banks and others refer to Laura DiDio, a market research analyst who is unpopular among Linux fans, as "Dildio." Says Banks: "I don't associate 'Dildio' with anything bad, and I think someone's mind has to be in the gutter to associate it with that. No offense."
Says DiDio of her tormentors, who swamp her with hateful email and "report" her to her supervisors at Boston-based Yankee Group: "Welcome to the wonderful world of Linux. These people are living in an alternative reality."
One poster, "korbomite," on SCO's Yahoo! message board has posted more than 3,100 messages to the board and says he is "single-mindedly working to destroy this company," though he won't give his real name. Another frequent poster, who requested anonymity, says he has stored evidence against SCO on CDs and stashed them in safe-deposit boxes scattered around his state "just in case." He says he has shared his evidence with the SEC and other government agencies.
Some in this camp are so angry that in December, when SCO said hackers had attacked its Web site, Linux zealots suggested SCO was staging the attacks itself. "If there is an attack, where is the proof? Did SCO...attack itself?" wrote Pamela Jones, a White Plains, N.Y. paralegal who runs a Web site called Groklaw which is d
Moderating 101
If SCO wins, we'll be faced with a situation in which a government perfectly campable of overriding public opinion (as they did in the case of H-1b in which 85% of the public opposed expansion and the Senatate supported expansion 96-1) is making major decisions that impact the lives of a lot of people giving no clear explaination. There is this matter of governments rule by "consent of the governed". This isn't want folks like Jefferson intended.
I do believe SCO's code should be private.
Linux however is very public and always has been.
If SCO can prove it owns some Linux code in court, Linux developers will remove it, if SCO asks and specifies the code.
End of story.
SCO does not pass go, or get to collect 200 dollars.
Just because SCO is incompetent to run a software busines does not mean anyone owes them money.
I am the unwilling control for my Origin.
The IBM case is a contract dispute. The SCO vs. IBM issues are different from the copyright issues SCO raises in the press and which will eventually be litigated in Red Hat vs. SCO.
The supreme court of the US has not ruled on EULA's specifially to my knowledge, I'd love to see evidence to the contrary.
Here's a decision where a particular EULA was upheld, and also ruled that EULAs can, in general, be legal (generally) so long as the buyer has recourse to refuse the additional terms.
Again, EULA's can be legal, though it doesn't mean that every EULA is legal.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
If SCO actually does have a court order to block IBM from disclosing their claimed infringement (which I seriously doubt BTW) then we can still get around it.
IBM simply needs to remove any files that SCO has identified and issue a distro. A diff against the latest release will clearly show what SCO is claiming.
It is totally perposterous for SCO to take this position. The code has already been released. It already IS published.
So how can IBM be barred from publishing everything EXCEPT what SCO claims infringes? No doubt SCO will try though. The silly fools.
In any event - a distro devoid of the claimed infringing code will allow every developer in the world who has worked on Linux to note the absence of their code and they can then come forth with the evidence that IBM needs.
This ploy will go nowhere IMHO
SCO was going under. They own the rights to Unix as I understand it. They figured IBM would buy them out if they go under. They figured a lawsuit against IBM would likely end quietly in a settlement where IBM just bought SCO and made the SCO execs a lot of money.
IBM decided to fight. SCO is doing damage control. They know that even if the court finds that code was stolen from System V Unix and put in Linux they have maybe a one in a million chance that the court will actually order that Linux will be essentially turned over to SCO to sell.
Basically SCO is in a lawsuit lottery right now. They have nothing better to do since they don't really have a business left. They are gambling 50-100 million in legal fees and operating expenses for the next few years on a very very slim chance that they could end up effectively monopolizing linux and the potential trillion dollar payoff that would lead to.
They will most likely loose and possibly end up being seized by IBM when they countersue for their legal fees which will be 10-20 million and by that point, that is all that SCO will be worth.
Even if they win at trial, they will not be permitted to control linux. The offending source code (if any) will simply be removed by developers.
It stinks when a company uses the
legal system to its own dishonest ends!
Seems that SCO continues to use the legal system as a way of
spreading FUD. If this had been a "normal" case, the court's
ruling acts to protect SCO in the event that it proves itself
correct. Should SCO publicly reveal their intellectual property,
and win their case against IBM, then they lose the their intellectual
property because it becomes a matter of public record. This
destroys their business model, and in turn, SCO itself. At the
risk of bad karma, this would be unfair to SCO.
What SCO is actually doing is leverage the courts in an attempt to
destroy Linux by getting the courts to protect them from attacks
resulting from claims made in the media. They make claims of IP
theft publicly against Linux, and use IBM to get maximum appeal in all
the trade media. This gets them more bang for the buck for every
press release. The choice also makes sense financially, as IBM
has very deep pockets. Had they picked on Red Hat, for example,
they ran the risk of Red Hat running out of money in the middle of the
FUD campaign. However, for IBM, this barely shows up on their
bottom line.
So, they attack Linux publicly, but only sue IBM. Next, they get
the court to protect their intellectual property. Hence, the only
company that they reveal their source to is IBM, which already has a
source license. Publicly, they bring down Linux by revealing its
case against IBM, and get the court to protect them from settling with
the Linux community. This limits the Linux community from making
repairs if there actually are pieces of SCO source in the kernel. So,
if they are lucky enough to win against IBM, they have no obstacles
preventing them from suing and shutting down all commercial Linux
companies. If they can convince the court to nullify all of the
Linux license and rights of the copyright owners, they walk away with
the kernel and sell their new Unixware to all those Linux customers now
left out in the cold. This is strategy that would make Snidely
Whiplash or Bill Gates proud!
My opinion in all this is that Torvalds should take the
offensive. He should sue SCO for defamation. All the public
statements imply that he willingly let others put code illegally into a
product that he is largely responsible for. This could be
damaging to his ability to gain employment in the future. At that
point, he can request to see the offending code, and have the chance to
remove it. This is a reasonable request, and one a court is
likely to rule in his favor. It would be in this way, by also
leveraging the legal system, that this could be resolved.
Asking for sealed procedings is unfortunatly an all to common move in american justice nowdays, especially in divorce trials. The misapplication of this power is particularlably worrisome because it strikes at the heart of our open system of justice. If the people cannot see the miscarridge of justice they can't correct it.
While I doubt SCO is particularly worried about (by themselves) rousing congress to a leglislative remedy for computer copyright law (though they could be part of a larger trend that does so) they are worried about too many public eyes.
Look at how effective publicity and the internet have been in finding examples of prior art in software patent cases. Asking for closed procedings forces IBM to track down every potential witness individually by themselves. No doubt SCO is hoping that with an open source product with developers spread across the globe IBM won't be able to find the relevant people if they can't publisize their claim.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
It is official; Netcraft confirms: SCO is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered SCO UnixWare community when IDC confirmed that SCO market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that SCO UnixWare has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. SCO is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict SCO's future. The hand writing is on the wall: SCO faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for SCO UnixWare because SCO is dying. Things are looking very bad for SCO. As many of us are already aware, SCO UnixWare continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
SCO has lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time UnixWare developers L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: SCO is dying.
All major surveys show that UnixWare has steadily declined in market share. SCO is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If SCO is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. SCO continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, SCO is dead.
Fact: SCO is dying
http://saveie6.com/
AT&T vs BSD was settled, not tried. The settlement was confidential by the agreement of both parties. In the SCO-IBM case, it sounds like SCO wants it confidential, IBM wants it open, and the court took SCO's side. That's stupid of the court.
...but you are an idiot. Disclosing code in court will not assign copyrights to the public domain. The owner of the copyright still owns those copyrights. These rights cannot arbitrarily be reassigned. Also secrets aren't secret if everyone knows them. Unix has been widely published on a massive scale, what could possibly be secret in Unix V, and besides, the real secrets to Unix are in its processes, specifications and patents which SCO doesn't own for the most part, and are also widely known or even public domain and aren't even slightly secretive. The particular code is just the implementation of the spec. which is copyrighted but isn't a 'secret' if everyone knows how it is made. Secrets are like Kentucky Fried Chicken, ring laser gyros and Coca Cola, once you tell everyone how to make it, it isn't a secret any more, and anyone will know how to make it.
What kind of dumbass would tell me to sit back and relax while someone tries to violate my rights. That is bullshit. I don't trust IBM to watch out for my interests, they would just as soon fuck me up the ass as help me out, and I would like to do my own due dilligence, very much thank you, because I do not like to get buggered.
Squeel like a pig? Hell no!
I can't imagine that SCO has trade secret rights to the *LOCATION* within Linux for their alleged IP, only the content, which is pubically accessible, so they really can't continue to claim trade secret rights.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'