Is it a Good Time to Get an Athlon64?

City_Idiot asks: "I'm looking to upgrade my current P4 2.4Ghz and i'm giving serious thought to a Athlon64 3200+. The tests look good, and it gives a 3Ghz P4 a good run for its money but is the technology ready for end users?"

Comments

OS

[quasarkitten]

It depends on what OS you are using, if it is windows then you should just get whatever is cheaper because it can't HANDLE 64bit well yet (if ever). You need to make sure the OS you are going to use can handle 64bit. I like SuSE 9.0 Pro. 64bit edition $129 or free via ftp

Re:OS

[Hungus]

It also depends on how often you upgrade. There is no point in buying a non 64bit system these days if you don't upgrade every year or so. That said I would wait to pick up a 64 bit system for as long as I could. There is always an improvement around the corner .. or a price drop. But if you are in the market now By all means go 64 bit.

Re:OS

[mOoZik]

I have successfully installed and run a 64 bit version of Windows XP with no problems. To be uninformed is one thing, but to pass your disgust for Microsoft as fact is another.

Re:OS

[quasarkitten]

It may work but your not going to pull out the performance that certain linux or BSD distros can give. --I type this on win xp but truth is truth

Re:OS

[Anonymous Coward]

mOoZik: If you would be so kind to answer a couple questions...

Did you run the beta of Windows XP 64-bit 2003, the AMD64 version of the Longhorn Alpha, an AMD64 Windows Server 2003 beta, or an internal release/something else? Also, which build/compile date was the OS, and how well did it run? notice ANY bugs/compatibility problems?

TIA!
-KayBo

PS. Where did you get drivers?

Re:OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon me, but if you are running that, IT IS BETA SOFTWARE. How many apps can you get optimized for 64bit for that BETA? Further more, can just anyone get a copy of that BETA?

Microsofties make me wish Fight Club was real...

Re:Re:OS

[KarateBob]

Heh, I've grabbed a few beta-Service Packs from alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.ms-beta and saw the 64-bit (2003 edition) of some stuff when i was browsing the other day.

Basically, Usenet is available, in some form, to everyone, but, by saying "just anyone" i assume you're referring to a link on a webpage the average Joe can click. So, unless you would call a ".torrent" a means of everybody accessing the illegal beta (i don't) then I guess it's currently only available for the small % of educated usenet/.torrent/IRC users who actually have the hardware to run it.

But yea, stealing microsoft products is about as bad as masturbating to photoshopped pictures of Hilary Duff. Morally wrong? no. Ethically wrong? ....Maybe

In closing, if you had the hardware, and you really wanted, or needed Win64-03, then im sure you would figure out how to find it on usenet/torrent/irc.

-Gotta rest to see ROTK again tomorrow.
-KayBo

Re:OS

[mOoZik]

I ran the 64 bit version of Windows XP which I acquired though the MSDN. I did not say I ran it with AMD64, but rather, with Itanium. Since this was for a customer, I cannot give you the build/compile date for the operating system (not because it is a breach of privacy/condifentiality, but because I can't remember), but there was no instability in the operating system.

Re:Re:OS

[Anonymous Coward]

then I guess it's currently only available for the small % of educated usenet/.torrent/IRC users who actually have the hardware to run it.

It's on the MSDN downloads for anyone who has access to an MSDN subscription (e.g. any dev shop that does any Windows work). It's not a closed audience on betaplace like most of their betas.

run ordinary 32 bit linux on it for now?

[anon mouse-cow-aard]

Yesterday's posting described issues with current
AMD 64-bit linux distros. Can one just use
a 32 bit one for now, and wait a while for the
64 bit ones to mature?

If not, it doesn't sound reasonable (as in, what?!!?
Getting X to work is a challenge?)

Re:run ordinary 32 bit linux on it for now?

[Tuxinatorium]

Of course. The athlon64 is backwards compatible with all 32 bit x86 instruction sets. In short, anything that can be run on an athlonXP can be run faster on an athlon64 without so much as a recompile. It still supports MMX, SSE, SSE2, 3dnow!... Unlike itanium it actually performs very well on 32 bit applications, in fact better than any other processor currently in existance, including the G5.

Re:run ordinary 32 bit linux on it for now?

[ejungle]

Unlike itanium it actually performs very well on 32 bit applications, in fact better than any other processor currently in existance, including the G5.

Astute.

Re:run ordinary 32 bit linux on it for now?

[OpenBoot Troll]

take your non openboot/OBP firmware and your cheap shit china razor chink china fucking crap shit and fuck off. take your shit fake crap and fuck off.
LONG LIVE Alpha SRM, LONG LIVE OBP. Death to BIOS and fag shit like PXE and other PeeCee faggor crap.
YOU FUCK WALLOW LIKE PIGS IN THE PIG STY OF CHEAP SHIT HARDWARE FROM CHINA AND OTHER SHITHOLES, FUCK YOU FOR SUPPORT SHIT YOU SHITMONGERING FUCKERS.

Yes

[gmhowell]

Yes, it's a good time, as a fool and his money are soon parted. WTF are you doing that a 2.4 GHz machine won't keep up? A little extra info, please? OS, apps, etc.

Re:Yes

[DAldredge]

EMACS.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

He's probably got the "ooo new toy!" itch. I wouldn't mind getting one as well, but I do 3D rendering, and network rendering is a whole lotta fun. Lightwave used to be 64-bit (back in the Alpha days) so an investment in a machine like this seems like it might be worthwhile.

As fun as it'd be to have a machine like that, I should share with him the conclusion I came to: Don't buy the latest greatest hardware unless there's some big screaming reason to do it. If Lightwave were 64-bit, I'd probably have bought one. Instead, I bought a dual Athlon machine. And ya know what? I enjoy the heck out of it. Maybe he should consider one for himself? Personally, I think the nicer multi-threading he'll end up with will yield a more responsive computer than having a single processor, even at 64-bits.

Re:Yes

[chthon]

After investigating the opportunities here in Belgium for building a dual Opteron system, I came to the same conclusion. For the moment I rather have dual Athlon MP system, with SX-6000 raid, and 2Gb of memory, for which I know that current software will run well.

Since I am creating and giving courses on Linux, this system will give me plenty of horsepower to create courses on Linux for midrange systems : databases, web servers, UML, terminal servers, volume management, backups and so on, while at the same time give my wife access to powerful system.

Regards,

Jurgen

Re:Yes

[escher]

Yes, it's a good time, as a fool and his money are soon parted. WTF are you doing that a 2.4 GHz machine won't keep up?

You've never tried radiosity rendering, have you? Or maybe a TV-res scanline render animation of a few seconds that includes anti-aliases ray-traced reflections? 2.4GHz is spittle.

Besides, how else is he going to be able to play Doom III at a decent framerate? :)

Re:Yes

[ChipMonk]

I launched Emacs this morning, just for grins (I don't use it, but it's installed by default). It was up and ready in less than 2 seconds on my 2GHz Athlon-XP. HA!

Re:Yes

[CTalkobt]

Should've used vi.

Re:Yes

[John_Booty]

You've never tried radiosity rendering, have you? Or maybe a TV-res scanline render animation of a few seconds that includes anti-aliases ray-traced reflections? 2.4GHz is spittle.

Yes, that's correct, but I think that you and I both know what 99% of people with the "upgrade itch" don't really need that much firepower, and just want the latest snazzy computer specs and toys! :)

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. Not wanting to start something but ...

fired up vi and shut it down in 1.57 secs.
( Duel PIII- 500 Dell - Mandrake 9.2 ).

Don't know the emacs time, as I AlWAYS deselect it on installation!

Buy the last generation

[ObviousGuy]

Prices come down on earlier models which are just as good as the new ones.

Save some money, buy the last generation chips instead of the latest and greatest.

Re:Buy the last generation

[Anonymous Coward]

Great example of this...

I just bought a Dell machine with a Geforce FX 5200, P4 2.66 at 533 Mhz FSB, 512 Megs of RAM, 40 Gig HDD, CD-RW, and DVD for around $550. Some people spend that much just on upgrades, and I bought a full computer, with OS and whatnot.

Re:Buy the last generation

[tunah]

No, you've got it backwards. He should buy the latest and greatest, causing the prices to come down so that I can buy one when the next chip comes out.

Asking Slashdot...

[roseblood]

...if you should adopt the newest fastest processor out there? Here's your answer: 50% - Hell YES! 50%-Why when you can just load a BSD/GNU/LINUX flavor of the week onto some portable device that runs at 1/10th the clockspeed of the newest fastest machine?
100% - As long as you don't use microsoft wares on the processor

Upgrading from a 2.4 P4??????

[flabbergast]

Wow, you're considering upgrading from your 2.4 P4. I just upgraded TO a 2.4 P4. *sigh*

Anyways, my question is, what do you do that requires THAT much horsepower? If you're web surfing, writing emails and writing letters in Word, then I'd recommend that you not upgrade to anything and that your P4 should be more than adequate. Details are important here. For instance, you want to work on porting XXXXXXX to run natively at 64 bits. Then of course its a good time to upgrade, and it probably makes sense for what you're doing. Or perhaps you want to frag some people when HL2 comes out. Then I'd say "probably not worth it" or ask "What kind of video card do you have?"

We can't give you a recommendation off the top of our head without any details.

Looks like your screen name...

[mOoZik]

...is right on the money. Only an idiot (or someone who has nothing better to do) would upgrade a 2.4. Before even asking Slashdot, you should have asked yourself, "Other than a substitute for manly deficiencies, is this upgrade necessary?"

Simple analysis

[wowbagger]

Here's a simple analysis to determine if now is the time:

Figure that between now and summer, the price of an Athlon64 system with a given set of specs (RAM, HD, video card, etc.) will go down about US$500.

So, ask yourself this - is $500 over the next six months worth it?

If you are making money with this machine - you are a consultant, or do freelance work that earns money, will the roughly 40% speed improvement make you back that $500 in six months?

If you are a hobbist, will the "fun" of being one of the first people on the block with an Athlon64 be worth $500 over the next six months?

Me, I am looking at the Atlon 2000+ I'm typing this on, with the Radeon 7500, and saying "I'll wait". But that's me.

Re:Simple analysis

[Brandybuck]

If you are a hobbist...

Is that like a pervy hobbit fancier?

There are only 2 good times to buy computer kit

[You're All Wrong]

1) Now
2) Never

YAW.

Re:There are only 2 good times to buy computer kit

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy."

This is not correct. It should be, "Your head of state is a corrupt, ignorant weasel, I hope you're happy."

Re:There are only 2 good times to buy computer kit

[Anonymous Coward]

You are both wrong. Those are both run-on sentences with comma splices.

Alternatives

[cgenman]

Don't forget alternatives to buying an Athlon 64 that can increase speed and productivity. A Dual-Processor machine can be a real speed boost, and is more natively supported. Likewise, faster system busses, more ram, and going to a RAID setup can increase speed. At that kind of cost, why not put everything in a RAM based rocketdrive? Have you maxed your graphics cards? Do you have a cheap 8139 NIC that taxes your processor?

Let's not forget human-centric productivity increasers, like macro-scriptable keyboards, larger moniters, and deleting AIM. Have you considered DVORAK?

There are many thing cheaper than an Athlon64 that will increase productivity. An intern, for example. Only when the system is both financially sound and better than the alternatives should the transition be undertaken. Perhaps you are the system network maintainer for Google, but for most people the Athlon64 just isn't ripe yet.

Re:Alternatives

[Zork the Almighty]

Wow, those are all great suggestions. And one of them could actually give me a blow job!

Re:Alternatives

[Alphanos]

There are many thing cheaper than an Athlon64 that will increase productivity. An intern, for example.

I wouldn't imagine that changing from an Intel P4 to an Athlon 64 could cost more than about $1500, even if you went for the FX version and needed to buy new registered memory + motherboard. How long can you pay for an intern with that much money:)?

Re:Alternatives

[macemoneta]

Pretty much forever, since most don't get paid (except in pizza and soda :-).

We've had many interns in our lab; most work so that they can get experience to put on their resumes. That way, when they graduate from college, they can be hired as experienced. Heck we've tried to hire some of them ourselves after training them.

Re:Alternatives

[aminorex]

Yeah, interns are really productive, especially when they don't use birth control.

Re:Alternatives

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that is called RE-productive

You should be running Vi instead

[Tim_F]

It runs on the command line, and isn't bogged down by all that graphical nonsense. Also, its editing mode is far superior to that of Emacs.

Re:You should be running Vi instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but I bet its web browser isn't as good as the one in Emacs.

Hell, I bet it doesn't even *have* a web browser!

Re:You should be running Vi instead

[DAldredge]

Why did you bring up editors? I thought we were talking about operating systems?

Re:You should be running Vi instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need a web browser on an editor? It makes no more sense than if mozilla had a word processor on it, or if Windows had a media player on it, or a cell phone with a camera on it, &c.

The point is, use editors for editing, and web browsers for web browsing.

Wait a bit

[Crazy Ukrainian]

If you really need the power, wait about what....half a year, 9 months? and get a p5 when they come out, I believe they'll be running at 5-7 ghz, which should be more than adequate for whatever you're doing now...and unless you're running a render farm or something, I don't see why you'd need that kind of speed. Wait, spend the money if you need, but 64 bit I'd say is a no go for now. Not enough apps can take advantage of it.

Re:Wait a bit

[MikeCapone]

You think that Intel chips will be running 5 to 7ghz 9 months to a year from now? Look at their roadmaps...

Personally, I'd go with AMD over Intel any day.

Performance/price ratio is almost 2:1 in favor of AMD EXCEPT at the very top of the line where it gets closer (with AMD still winning by a nice margin).

Intel is only better if you have a really fat wallet.

Yeah, I know; websites tend to compared a Athlon 3200+ with a Pentium 4 3.2ghz and conclude that the P4 is better.

But they get the CPUs for free! If you actually compared, say, an Athlon 2800+ from AMD with something SIMILARLY priced from Intel you'll see that AMD is clearly the winner.

Re:Wait a bit

[BrookHarty]

With all the benchmarks from Toms Hardware or Extreme Tech, etc, you can it sum up.

AMD is the fastest for games, except older Quake3 engine based.
Intel is faster at Media creation programs and desktop applications. (SSE2, and Intel optimizations are the main reason...)

Bang for the buck, I'd go with an ATI 9600 or Nvidia 5600 and AMD 2600 cpu for the sweet spot on a good gaming rig that will do everything now. By the time Doom3 or Halflife 2 comes out next year, the 500 bux you save could upgrade your motherboard to something faster at that time.

And as dual performance, notice how much P3 1.4's are, still 200 bux. But at 200 bux you can also get AMD 2800 MPs.

Re:Wait a bit

[EddWo]

IF AMD processors die prematurely due to overclocking AND you want your PC to last longer than a couple of months THEN you can buy an AMD processor and DON'T overclock it. Simple?

Re:Wait a bit

[Zathrus]

But, AMD's are well known to run extremely hot

Load of crap.

Intel chips dissipate more heat than AMD does now.

And as for core temperature -- it doesn't matter. Different chips are designed to run at different temperatures. Yeah, they all have (more or less) the same maximum temp, but depending on how you do design you can have different operational temps.

Which, if you add it up, actually amounts to the same price as a Intel processor!

You're dropping $100 on fans? You're seriously overspending. Even if you do, for some ungodly reason, decide that you need to replace the retail fan (which isn't needed unless you're going to overclock or want a quieter HSF), a really nice Zalman or Thermaltake HSF is under $40. Panaflo system fans are under $10 (except the 92 or 120 mm).

AMD are also notorious for their short lived processors that die prematurely due to the excessive overclocking that AMD fanatics live by.

Wow... you overclock the CPU, you shorten the lifespan! Amazing thing that -- running it out of spec is bad. With prices of CPUs nowadays overclocking is for the fanboys that don't have any more of a life than bragging about how fast their system is. Once upon a time (back in the Celeron 300A days) you could get substantial speed boosts by overclocking. Now it's in the single digit percentile range -- if that.

for those of you that want your PC to last longer than a couple of months then Intel is the way to go.

Wow. Really? I guess my AMD Athlon 750 didn't really last me nearly 3 years then. My wife's Athlon 1.33 is, lets see, two years old or more now? My Athlon XP 2.2 should've died long ago, since it's 13 months old. And my file server with an Athlon 1.4 (admittedly, I really should've gone for a Via Eden here, but I was doing a ton of CD ripping initially) is 10 months old.

I guess they'll all fail immediately, since you've said they only last a few months.

Oh, and that must really be hell for AMD too. I mean, look at all those retail boxed processors with 3 year warrantees that they apparantly have to replace every few months.

To repeat what others have said requires education; to challenge it requires brains.

Let us know when you get either one.

Re:Wait a bit

[Nos.]

Funny, a little while back I bought exactly what you said. A 2600 (OC'd to 3000) with a Nvidia 5600, and 1GB ram. Full system including a nice case (window, some leds) for I bought this in anticipation of HL2 (before the first delay and then the code leak delay). It plays HL great. I'm usually the first one to enter the game after a map change. I play at a steady 60fps (my monitor's limitation, not the machines). Even in heavy fire fights is stays at 59 fps.
I may have to upgrade the video card come HL2's final release, but for now I have a machine that can play any game out there. I'm incredibly satisfied with AMD (my first AMD CPU).

Re:Wait a bit

[ameoba]

With prices of CPUs nowadays overclocking is for the fanboys that don't have any more of a life than bragging about how fast their system is. Once upon a time (back in the Celeron 300A days) you could get substantial speed boosts by overclocking. Now it's in the single digit percentile range -- if that.

Umm... I think you're out of touch. P4 2.4GHz chips are routinely getting 3GHz (often with the stock retail HSF), and Athlon XP 2500+s are doing the same sorts of numbers. The best part is that the RAM and mobo have enough headroom that these chips do this with FSB overclocking (instead of multiplier) so those numbers translate into real performance boosts.

Re:Wait a bit

[mlyle]

I don't think he's out of touch.

That's a 25% gain at best in performance.. and real world results will be less.. Most of the benchmarks I've seen give the P4 3GHz a 10-20% edge over the P4 2.4.

Maybe overclocking and hassling with things makes that kind of gain worthwhile. It isn't for me. It's not like back in the day where with the Celeron 300A you could get 50% performance boosts.

Re:Wait a bit

[xtturbo]

Ok fight with my 1533MHz athy @ 2333MHz :) 800MHz overclock. thats 150%. Not worth it? i think not.

Athlon64 3000+

[Laven]

Take a look at the newly released Athlon64 3000+ processor which is compatible with the same socket as Athlon64 3200+. Both chips are 2.0GHz, but the 3000+ has 512KB L2 cache instead of 1024KB L2. The price is around around $220 vs $420, which is a significant difference.

I personally bought the 3200+ two months ago, but I totally would have been happy with the 3000+.

Also check out Fedora Core 1 preview release of AMD64. Official test1 release should be coming soon because they fixed the last blocker bug in pango.

Jealous?

[metalhed77]

I'm jealous of the fact that I could never afford to upgrade that soon. My recent upgrade was from a 600Mhz Athlon to an Athlon XP 2600+ barton OCed to 3000+. At this rate my next computer will be quantum....

Re:Jealous?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm jealous of the fact that I could never afford to upgrade that soon.

I know what you are saying, but that sentence doesn't make sense.

Re:Jealous?

[dJCL]

Kidding? My current is a 500 AMD, I'm picking up a dual Athlon board from a friend this afternoon and am very glad that I pay reseller prices for my CPU's on this one...

But besides that, once I have the money, I will see about getting a dual amd64 system(they will probably be pretty good by then). With 4 lcd displays, SB audigy vX(whatever is newest then) ATI video and gig network to access my (to be built) terabyte file server... ah dreams...

Re:Jealous?

[Anonymous Coward]

But besides that, once I have the money, I will see about getting a dual amd64 system(they will probably be pretty good by then). With 4 lcd displays, SB audigy vX(whatever is newest then) ATI video and gig network to access my (to be built) terabyte file server... ah dreams...

my, that's some horsepower just to download porn.
Seems like you could buy yourself a good woman willing to do anything for the price of that dream system... unless you're so fugly you can't go out in daylight... but even there, there are people out there willing to do anything for money.

Re:Jealous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, me too:

My Current Dream Machine

Re:Jealous?

[ottothecow]

I went from 600MHz PIII to Atlon64 and I love it.

However, the HDD in the 64 died and is in the process of being replaced and so far I havnt had anything I really needed to do that I could do just fine right here on the PIII. Why upgrade from a p4? maybe the proper option is to make sure there is enough ram/decent graphics card or get rid of all the junk you are running on startup/spyware.

Confused about the question

[mnmn]

is the technology ready for end users?

I really dont get that question. How can a technology be ready or not ready? It is being shipped and it apparently performs to specs. Like you said it challenges P4 in terms of value, which might answer that question.

A certain number of vendors are making motherboards for it. When you have one or possibly two companies making chipsets, you might have an issue, but with a large number of chipsets and drivers getting mature, you might have the right timing for it.

One other benefit of buying a product early in its selling cycle is that youll have a current product for a longer period of time. Buy a P4 when its really cheap, and youll have a new chip from Intel in the next 6 months.

I am curious about your applications though. What is it for which a P4 2.4GHz doesnt suffice? My P3 550 is giving me good service through games, video and 3d model editing...

Re:Confused about the question

[Wolfrider]

> How can a technology be ready or not ready? It is being shipped and it apparently performs to specs.

--Download and test Linux kernel 2.6.0 on a variety of hardware, and then see if you can still say that. (This is not a troll.) For that matter, see if you can find any SparQ drives on ebay and try booting and running an operating system on them for more than a month.

You should be running Notepad instead

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to bother with a cryptic command line.

What most people forget is...

[eWarz]

What most people forget is, REGARDLESS of the 64 capabilities of the chip, the athlon64 is HANDS DOWN the FASTEST consumer processor money can buy. While i'd question you upgrading a p2 2.4 ghz, if you are just determined to have the fastest chip money can buy then the athlon64 is it. (get the FX51 if that's the case). However, if you are a gamer looking for more speed, upgrading your graphics card would do alot more, as a 2.4 ghz p4 is more then fast enough to handle today's games.

End users?

[aminorex]

Well, that would depend on which end....

It's a great time...

[IM6100]

...to get whatever is one or two steps down from 'top end' and it always is. I find it excellent when there's someone willing to pay top dollar and subsidize my lower-cost choices. I bought a Pentium III 450 when the 650s and what-not were 'current.'

I have a number of 64 bit machines already, if I want to 'dabble' in 64-bitness. My Sun Ultra 1 boxes run NetBSD/Sparc64 and cost me $12.50 each at auction.

Re:It's a great time...

[arcadum]

What auction? I would like to pick up a sunblade 150, or similar, on the cheap...

what the?

[Tuxinatorium]

If you have a P4 2.4ghz, just overclock it to 3ghz. It will probably work. Don't waste so much money on a tiny upgrade.

Like everyone else

[$exyNerdie]

Like everyone else here is saying, why would you pay top $$ for a most recent processor when you could rather upgrage your fast P4 2.4 GHz box with other items that really affect the performance like extra fast SCSI or Serial ATA hard drive, more and faster RAM, faster graphics card etc.... Unless you do something that is very CPU cycle intensive (like graphics editing/encoding etc)....

Sig
-- Compare war time president's military record (www.awolbush.com) with Wesley Clark's (Wesley Clark's Army Career)

Re:Like everyone else

[bhtooefr]

SATA runs at 150Mb/s, PCI runs at 133Mb/s. In other words, if you want a performance boost from SATA, you need a new motherboard. Also, the 7200RPM hard drives are only pushing ATA66 (66Mb/s).

Re:Like everyone else

[arkanes]

SATA has alot of benefits besides the increased bus speed (which, as you infer, is not a very big deal).

You should be running cat - > file instead

[moncyb]

Nah, e3 is much better. It's only 13k (statically linked) and supports both vi and emacs key bindings.

But, if you want a real command line editor, go for cat.

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[drakaan]

How about edlin? edlin RULES!

Right now = good, year 2010 = not good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? This processor will probably be slow 7 years from now and not be able to run the applications of the day. So yes, get one now!

$51 for that D&D CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on crack? You just finish busting some guy's balls over a modern CPU, and you think that some CD sized piece of data that can be easily copied and warezed is worth $51, used, without a warranty? I advise you check into the Betty Ford clinic post haste!

Re:$51 for that D&D CD?

[gmhowell]

He's got two bids. That makes me question if the seller is the one on crack.

Re:Right now = good, year 2010 = not good.

[tigersha]

Actually, the question he had was whether the AMD 64 is capable of running the applications of the day in 2003 without a hitch. I IT after all a new processor architecture

Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[driftwood]

Here is a quick summary of the AMD64 line. It comes directly from an AMD Engineer working on the AMD64 projects. His recommendation was to wait for the 2nd generation motherboard chipsets sporting the 939-pin sockets.

Current parts
The processor cores for Athlon64/AthlonFX/Opteron are currently all the same.

• Opteron
  940-pin Socket
  Dual channel DDR registered/ECC required.
  84X series are 1/2/4/8 way system certified.
  24X series are 1/2 way system certified.
  14X series are 1 way system certified ( same as AthlonFX51).

• Athlon FX
  940-pin Socket
  The FX is simply a relabeled Opteron chip. This chip has pinout for dual channel DDR (needs to be registered/ECC and I believe buffered, yuck)

• Athlon64
  754-pin Socket
  Opteron 14X but with single channel DDR Athlon64 comes in the 754 pin package now but only supports single channel DDR but can use unbuffered standard DDR.

Future parts
939 package Athlon64/FX is a new pinout to support dual channel unbuffered DDR, allows for 4 layer PCB motherboards (cheaper to make boards) and a faster HyperTransport external link.

• Drill Hammer
  512kB cache instead of the 1MB on current products. Packaging should be same as other chips (754/939).

• Claw Hammer
  256kB cache instead of the 1MB on current products. Packaging should be same as other chips (754/939).

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[slagish666]

Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome

What is the Slot1/A Syndrome?

I can understand that the second generation chips support unbuffered RAM, but why would that be important? Given that it's hard to find a FX chip in the first place, how long should we expect to wait for a second generation chip?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but I am looking at purchasing about 32 FX-based machines (the big draw is future 64-bit compatability and >4GB RAM in our lab).

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[driftwood]

What is the Slot1/A Syndrome?

Intel originally issued the Pentium2 in a cartridge style using the 'Slot 1' interface. Intel stated that they would not change back to sockets. The major reason for the change was to move the L2 cache off the main processor die to improve manufacturing yields. AMD followed suit and announced 'Slot A' which was physically, but not electrically the same. Both AMD and Intel found that the overall system costs were substantially more that socket based processors and changed back to sockets within a few years.

I can understand that the second generation chips support unbuffered RAM, but why would that be important? Given that it's hard to find a FX chip in the first place, how long should we expect to wait for a second generation chip?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but I am looking at purchasing about 32 FX-based machines (the big draw is future 64-bit compatibility and >4GB RAM in our lab).

Unbuffered RAM has much lower latencies which in turn improves performance. Also, unbuffered, non-ECC RAM has a much lower price.

The initial impression that I received was that AMD is ready to go, and waiting on the third party chipset manufacturers (VIA, NVidia). We should see the 2nd generation AlthonFX and Athlon64 by the end of 2004Q2.

If you are in need of AMD64 platform immediately, I would recommend going with the Opteron 24x series since the processor cores are all currently identical. The price is half as much as the AthlonFX and the same or less than the Opteron 14x series. Also, when you retire these workstations, you can use the Opteron 24x processors in dual CPU 940-pin motherboards which will be fully supported for at least the next 3-5 years.

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[MonkeyDluffy]

Both AMD and Intel found that the overall system costs were substantially more that socket based processors and changed back to sockets within a few years.

The real problem was that the cache had to be run at half the speed of the processor, and as the processors got faster, the cache speeds couldn't keep up. So you would end up with the processor running at 2.5X, 3X, etc times the speed of the cache. Not good.

-MDL

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[SleezyG]

I agree that dual channel, unbuf. DDR is worth waiting. It should be noted that that what really determines the speed of your system is how fast and how big of a pipe you have for memory. However, waiting a few months for processor models (e.g., Drill or Hammer) with less L2 cache is foolish, especially when you're gonna pay a premium for the brand-spanking new model. Always buy a chip with as much L2 cache as possible since that is what makes it fast.

Consider this fatoid: 60% of chip area is occupied by cache. So if AMD gives you 1/2 the cache, their manufacturing yield goes up and their costs go down. A smaller die means they can also clock the chip a few insignificant MHz faster, thus justifying a higher price. The buyer will not get to enjoy the savings that AMD does.

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[mikis]

And one more difference: Athlon 64 and FX support DDR 400 memory, and Opteron supports "only" DDR333.

Re:Beware of the Slot1/A Syndrome.

[__aatgod8309]

I think the idea behind the smaller cache size is that for 512kb cache, they can sell chips that have had one of the two 512kb caches fail when tested, which would otherwise have been dumped. (My understanding is that the 1mb cache is composed of 2x 512kb units on the die, feel free to correct me if i'm mistaken)

I don't get it ...

[Breakerofthings]

What are you doing with your box?!

I just built my system a couple of months ago:

• KT400 mobo
• 3ware raid, 2 120 GB ATA drives with 8mb cache, mirrored ... a MUST for my "important documents" ;)
• 1 GB DDR
• Nvidia 64MB AGP
• Athlon XP 2200+
• Running Gentoo, of course

and as far as I am concerned, it Screams

(note that I am not a hardcode gamer, nor doing and rendering; just surfing the web, watching dvds, using openoffice, and the occasional build)

Why? $60 for the processor; I'll upgrade to a 3200 when they drop beloy $75 or so...

I build the whole thing for < $700 ... which is damn competetive with the crapola specials you get from Dell, etc., and a whole lot more machine

I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[trentfoley]

Price are from pricewatch (excluding companies operated by bzboyz)

103.00 Antec Sonata Case
TruePower 380 Watt ATX12V power supply
193.97 ASUS SK8N NVDIA nForce 3 pro150 Chipset DDR RAM AGP8X 5xPCI Audio LAN 6USB2.0 ATX
722.00 Athlon64 FX51
27.00 Thermaltake A1838 CPU Heatsink/Fan for AMD Opteron / Athlon64
202.00 2@512 MB PC 3200 registered
35.00 1.44MB Floppy/6in1 Flash
246.00 2@Seagate ST3160023AS 160GB Serial ATA 7200rpm 8MB
200.00 Visontek ATI Radeon 9600 XT 256MB
58.50 Samsung SM-352BEB 52X24X52X16 CD-RW & DVD Combo Drive
206.00 Plextor PX-708A/SW-BL Dual Format 8X DVD
1179.00 VP201B Viewsonic Monitor

Add in thermal grease, round cables, etc and the price comes in below $3200.

Needless to say, I give AMD64 the thumbs up. If you can afford to go, you will help accelerate adoption.

Plus, don't forget that the Athlon64 is still a very fast 32bit processor. However, I'm not sure if the FX chip is worth the premium. I'll be building the system in January (after I get my xmas dough) and will then know.

The last high-end system I built was a dual ppro200. SMP in Linux was experimental (yet worked great for me) back then. Yet, this very old computer is still running and handling several domains' email. It has more than paid for itself. I hope this new system fares as well.

As an aside, if anyone sees something blatantly wrong with one of my part selections, please explain. I'm torn over going over to ATI. I haven't tried an ATI card since the early 90's and I hated them. However, from what I understand, ATI is the gamer's choice.

BTW, I have absolutely no need for the power this machine will provide. I just want to play and learn with 64bit OS's and still be able to run 32bit games with great graphics.

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you read this... If you plan on buying that system to run 64bit Linux, last I checked ATI still had not released 64bit drivers for Linux. I know that card is a great performer, but MAKE SURE, you check with ATI before you buy that card. If it isn't available, I'd recommend an FX5900 or some such variation. The latest firmware updates have fixed alot o the issues people are aware of, and there are 64bit drivers available for it, and every other FX card, under Linux.

I think you'll be okay with that SATA controller, but DOUBLE CHECK. My Via chipset does not have 64bit drivers available yet, so I'm stuck using an old ide drive. I just wanted to give you a heads up...

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[damiam]

If you plan on buying that system to run 64bit Linux, last I checked ATI still had not released 64bit drivers for Linux.

While that's true, I believe the standard open-source radeon will work fine. They don't do 3D acceleration, but that's only an issue if you plan on playing 3D Linux games. Someone who would sink that kind of money into a gaming rig would probably be a mostly-Windows gamer, since there aren't too many visually demanding Linux games, and won't be until Doom3.

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[trentfoley]

Thanks for the headsup on the availability of 64bit drivers for ATI and SATA. I will definitely check out driver availability now that you have raised the issue.

Although I feel it is time for me to check out ATI, my gut tells me that I will have more success with an nVidia FX5xxx card. However, the FX5900 is too pricey. My wife won't let me spend more than $3200 on the system (which is quite fair).

Here's a good question: what is the best nVidia card I can get for = $200? Quietness counts.

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[ameoba]

You can find 128MB 5900s for under $200. For the silent option, eVGA makes a 5600XT (slightly slower than stock 5600) with passive cooling.

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[ottothecow]

well...my via chipset has 64bit drivers for SATA becasue...its a via chipset for the Athlon64 so it would sure make sense for them to have drivers.

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[Anonymous Coward]

Do your homework on the power supply...It must be the new SSI EPS ATX power supply for the 940 pin processors. A regular ATX 20 pin power supply will not work. The EPS ATX has a 24 pin power connector and an 8 pin power connector, and both are required to be plugged into the motherboard. These are $120.00 power supplies and the retail stores do not have them yet. I know because I just built two real nice boxes for work for a sql and application server. See this for an example...http://store.yahoo.com/e-datatek/55antre psepo.html

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[mikis]

You are wasting money on CPU (IMHO), because it will be obsolete in few months when new socket 939 comes out, you will have only one upgrade option (FX53?) and hard time selling it for even half of what you've paid.

If you want good NVIDIA <200$ card, check new FX5700 models. But if you give so much money on CPU, it is a shame to be held back by mid-class video card. How will you explain to yor friends that your hot new 3200$ FX51 machine cannot play games in max resolution? :)

Re:I too am planning an AMD64 home system..

[trentfoley]

Thanks for the reply -- I was looking hard at the FX5700 when I realized that nothing less than the best available card would do.

I've talked the wife in to letting me spend another couple hundred and I will get an FX5950 or a Radeon 9800XT. ALl things considered, why not, right?

Your point about blowing money on the processor is well taken. However, in the past when I have replaced a processor, I have also replaced a motherboard, as well as memory -- so, I'm not too worried about socket compatibility.

The fact that pci-express is right around the corner will make any system I build obsolete in a few months anyway. But, thats the way it goes.

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[Anonymous Coward]

ed is the standard! ed, man!

Do not go dual processor

[Manic Miner]

I have a friend who got himself a dual AMD machine and had no end of trouble and problems with it, he wanted a kick-ass games machine but ended up with all sorts of SMP_not_supported driver hell with the graphics card and soundblaster card.

If you intend this as a games machine, go for hyperthreading P4, or athlon64, don't go dual processor, its not worth that hassle.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[vadim_t]

The solution to that is easy: Don't buy cards from crappy manufacturers, like Creative for example. I've got a dual Athlon MP here, and it works prefectly fine win Windows and Linux with a GeForce 2 MX 400 and Terratec DMX XFire sound card.

BTW, HT is supposed to work more or less the same as SMP, so it will probably give you the same driver problems.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[damiam]

I've got a dual Athlon MP 2200+ w/ an SB Audigy and Radeon 9700 PRO. It works fine under Windows and Linux, and I've never had an SMP driver problems. Your friend did something wrong.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[mikis]

Creative does not manufacture video cards, AFAIK they are made by MSI (Micro-Star).

Re:Do not go dual processor

[vadim_t]

Right, I was talking about Creative sound cards. When I bought my dual computer it was known that Creative drivers didn't work with SMP. I'm not completely sure about now.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[Zero Sum]

Right, I was talking about Creative sound cards. When I bought my dual computer it was known that Creative drivers didn't work with SMP. I'm not completely sure about now.

Hmm... I've been running a dual processor since the 350 MHz PII was released. Still using in preference to faster machines (that I have passed on to my children) because of the far greater responsivnss of a dual processor. It has never had anything but Creative soundcards and it has survived Number 9/Matrox and nvidia graphics cards with no driver problems whatsoever.

But then it has never run Windows or Linux either....

Re:Do not go dual processor

[vadim_t]

Then probably that's why it works. IIRC, SMP wasn't supported by Creative, which meant no SMP-compatible Windows drivers. Linux on the other hand has its own open source drivers. I think all ALSA drivers are SMP safe.

In any case, that wouldn't work for me, because although I use Linux 99% of the time, I do need to boot Windows once in a while. Creative cards caused me lots of problems as well, especially the combination of the SB Live with the VIA686B southbridge, which caused lockups and disk corruption. Then there are the false promises by Creative "your card will be upgradeable via software", and their annoying behavior (they removed the drivers from their site for several days).

So I decided to try something else, and got the Terratec DMX X-Fire 1024. Works very nicely, pretty much the same capabilities as the SB Live, and it's got a digital input too.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[Zero Sum]

Fairy Muff

Although I don't actually use Linux in this particular case. I have some severe reservations about Linux ablbeit far, far less than I have about Microsoft OSes. I'm a BSD geek. I should have mentioned that. I've had no troubles with any BSD but I never actually loaded Linux or an MS/OS on the SMP box.

Re:Do not go dual processor

[Anonymous Coward]

That particular 'Creative' issue was actually an issue with Via's northbridges, sad to say. (Especially as I try to *like* Via, and was indeed a fanboy since the Socket 7 days...)

The closest thing to a brief description would be that they didn't implement PCI properly; they've fixed that roughly from the time they started supporting DDR. It was made obvious with the Creative cards because they 1. were bandwidth-intensive, and 2. realtime. So while other common high-bandwidth devices would, say, go for bus retries or something (SCSI cards?), a sound chip didn't have that option, since by the time it *did* get the data through un-mangled, the output had already 'skipped' or 'clicked' or 'popped.' (Or perhaps it was just playing the corrupted data with no error checking... I really don't know enough about PCI, or how data integrity for such 'bus transactions' is commonly handled; obviously DMA IDE technology is particularly trusting of the path between memory and disk interface...)

The 686B may or may not have had a few vagaries of its own, but probably no better or worse than your average Intel chip.

SMP

[Detritus]

I've built SMP machines from Intel CPUs and motherboards with Intel chipsets without many problems. The trick is to get a motherboard from a company that knows how to design an SMP motherboard, or just buy a low-end SMP server.

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[drakaan]

All right...I didn't want to mention it, but when I REALLY want to impress somebody, I open up a DOS prompt and type "copy con"...

Mod parent up!

[inteller]

because the truth shouldn't be suppressed. What will be asked next? When should I go to the bathroom? Wipe your own ass!

It depends...

[Anita Coney]

It partially depends on whether you'll use a 64-bit OS.

For example, if you're waiting for a 64-bit version of XP, then you should not buy now. By the time XP-64 comes out, your current Athlon64 system will be underpowered compared against what will be available then. Thus the extra money you paid would have gone to waste.

And even if you have a 64 bit OS, what about software?! Unless you just have to have the latest and greatest, I'd wait until we have lots of 64 bit software and drivers to fully support the hardware.

However, if id releases a 64 bit version of Quake3 for Linux, I might have to change my opinion!

Re:It depends...

[multiplexo]

For example, if you're waiting for a 64-bit version of XP, then you should not buy now. By the time XP-64 comes out, your current Athlon64 system will be underpowered compared against what will be available then. Thus the extra money you paid would have gone to waste.

Given the way Microsoft bloats up its operating systems I'd be willing to bet that by the time XP-64 comes out your Athlon 64 will be underpowered compared to the hardware requirements for said OS.

And is it...

[Anonymous Coward]

...a good time for ihtagik to go back to playing with his prick, instead of mommy and daddy's computer?

Sure is!

Oops...

[Anita Coney]

I meant Doom3.

masturbation vs. microsoftization (Re:Re:OS)

[Anonymous Coward]

stealing microsoft products is about as bad as masturbating to photoshopped pictures of Hilary Duff. Morally wrong? no. Ethically wrong? ....Maybe

Are you insane ?
stealing MS products is bad for your own mental sanity. Masturbating is good for you.
Remember the Seinfeld episode with the bet about who's going to last less without masturbating, and Elaine was the 2nd to crack, while the last two were so nervous they could not sleep at night? Hilarious!...but true.

I must say I'd dig Hilary Duff (she looks quite like a former girlfriend of mine... many many years ago - too bad I lost contact with her, can't post a picture here :-) if she only were from somewhere else 'round the globe. I don't want to generalize, but the way some of such teenagers in this country talk/walk/move/express themselves, prevents me from finding them attractive - Hilary Duff is such an example.
I think I could stand some closeness with her if I were drunk, or if she kept absolutely silent and did not move (except while at it of course :-)
But that's just me. I'd vote for Samantha over Hilary any time. Mind you, either one could be my daughter, so...

Re:masturbation vs. microsoftization (Re:Re:OS)

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget, it also prevents prostrate cancer.

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[Wolfrider]

--Nar. When you want to Impress the Ladiez, you fire up the old punch-card reader and impress them with your "stack."

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[The_Dougster]

All right...I didn't want to mention it, but when I REALLY want to impress somebody, I open up a DOS prompt and type "copy con"...

Oh, yeah thats a nice way to write short programs.

C:\> copy con program.exe
...
...
^Z

Re:You should be running cat - file instead

[drakaan]

Or, I could fire up the paper-tape reader and show them how long mine is...

radeon not 3D accelerated?

[CmdrTHAC0]

While that's true, I believe the standard open-source radeon will work fine. They don't do 3D acceleration...

This being the second time I've heard this, would someone mind explaining to me about this?

I've looked at the 2.4.2[23] kernel DRM sources, and there are clearly functions in the Radeon driver for pushing vertices and textures to the video card (radeon_cp_dispatch_* in linux-2.4.23/drivers/char/drm/radeon_state.c). Furthermore, glxinfo claims "OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Radeon 20020611 AGP 4x x86/MMX/3DNow!/SSE TCL" which I take to mean the card is doing textures, clipping, and lighting at least.

I don't play too many games, but as a rough benchmark, OpenGL screensavers actually become viewable fullscreen in DRI mode. It must be doing something. So why do I keep hearing they don't do 3D acceleration?

Re:radeon not 3D accelerated?

[damiam]

Open-source Radeon drivers do 3D-accelleration for all Radeon cards except 9500 and greater. That means that everything from the original to the 9200 is fully supported by open-source drivers. To get 3D accelleration on the 9500, 9600, 9700, and 9800, you have to use ATI's binary drivers (although the open drivers still work fine if all you need is 2D).

Re:radeon not 3D accelerated?

[Duty]

It may be fully supported, but for me, the DRI Project's r200 driver with a Radeon 9200SE has been so glitchy it's nearly unusable.

Yep

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah why the hell not. Every non-intel arch went 64bit 10 years ago... And us suckers who buy AMD/Intel shit are still using uniprocessor 32bit systems.

Give me SMP amd64 or SMP ppc64 running linux over any 32bit system any day.

First Drill Hammer already out...

[Kjella]

The Athlon 64 3000+ has been released, and the big difference from the 3200+ is 512kB cache. A real bargain buy if what you need is 64bit (That is, got an OS+app that benefits from it) rather than the 3000+ rating. Not bad otherwise either though, for that matter

Kjella

prostrate cancer?

[timothy]

Hey, that's the best way for cancer to be ... then you can sneak up on it and apply a scalpel before it has a chance to object.

timothy