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Exporting Myself?
sennomo asks: "Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore. So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S. The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country. So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak. I have heard a few others discuss this, but how many are actually trying it? And how is it going for them? Are there any hotspots for American expatriate programmers?"
i graduated with my bachelors last spring without having a job lined up. my main avenue of search were the websites of companies in my area and my school's biannual job fair, and those didnt go well. i didnt want to, but I sucked it up and put my resume out on careerbuilder and monster. found a job in less than a week after graduation. and it pays well too!
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Why would another country want YOU to move THERE and take jobs away from THEIR people? I've heard people talk about moving to India and such, because all the work is being outsourced to them. Well, guess what, they have plenty of native citizens to perform the work. Unlike the United States, most other countries don't have an open door for anyone that wants to just waltz in. Being skilled doesn't matter, if you're just going to end up taking a job away from one of their own people.
My company outsources to US firms because we can compete on wages and our dollar is lower than the US dollar. I suggest the west coast, say Vancouver or Victoria although the job market's hotest in Calgary. Healthcare's free here, drugs are cheap, pot is soon to be legal, violent crime rates are low and it's just nice here! Anyway that's my 2 cents. FP BTW
Yes, you may make a better life for yourself. This approach has been used for years by young, poor women in asian countries. Granted they have different, non-technical expertise but it seems analogus to what you are considering.
Why not just accept less money than you've been asking? Look for non-profits and similar who need programmers but can't pay competitive salaries. Then, when you build up some experience, you might be worth something more than the paper the degree is printed on and won't have trouble if you decide to look elsewhere for work.
Go for a design job. There's plenty of those if you're good (did you have good grades in your CS classes?). Lean towards the Science part of your degree instead of trying to pimp the programming skills you learned as a side effect. Who wants to be just a programmer anyway? It's like manual labor for your fingers.
Also, be an example for others. You are living proof that you should get a BS in computer science, not a BA. Yes, employers notice, and also, the background courses for a science degree will actually relate to real world exprience in your field, where the types of employers you're looking for probably don't care in the least about the non-CS stuff you did for your BA.
The reason companies hire work elsewhere is because of price -- it's cheap! Just stay in America, work an lower-skilled (but still relatively high-paying) IT job. When I was going to uni I worked IT in a hospital near Seattle, and at the time (1999) they paid about 35-38K USD / year for full-time IT staff. I declined and luckily found a job, and have held on to it.
Before I found my current employer I toyed with the idea of seeking a tech job overseas, preferably somewhere in Europe. In my head this seemed like a good idea because I could start my life over, fixing the parts I didn't like. I had a phone interview with a consulting firm in Ireland but the very notion of being in a country on a work visa scared me away.
Shortly thereafter (in 2000 mind you) I posted my resume on dice.com and phone calls started rolling in. I interviewed with four or five companies and picked the one for me.
Jobs are here, you just have to be patient enough to find them. I, for one, don't think it's worth the paperwork to relocate. But then, I'm lazy.
"A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory."
Canada looks like a nice alternative to the USA. Better health care, low crime rates, civilized acceptance of diverse peoples. Personally, I am gathering as much data on my emigration options as possible. I've decided that if President Flightsuit is re-elected, I'm going to try to find another home. Unfortunately, it appears as if getting work as an alien is as difficult in other countries as it is in the USA.
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
Now that Canada has decimated our economy by sending us cattle infected with mad cow disease we should reward them by having our skill labor emigrate to their country. You have any other bright ideas? Maybe we should start sending France some American taxpayer dollars to help them out after losing a great military arms customer in Saddam Hussein.
Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore.
They lied.
So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S.
Sucker.
The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country.
Awfully convenient explanation, huh? Just in time for the retirement of the "Bad economy" excuse.
So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak.
Or, so to hope. Higher ground. Yep. That's what I'd call a third world country.
Here is the painful truth - if you had anything to offer, you'd be employed. My company is hiring like crazy, but we are extremely selective (about 1 in 100 candidates pass the tests.)
Actually, let me back it up a little and not be so terribly insulting. The situation is this - companies are hiring, but they are scared of repeating the bust. One of the least talked about reasons that everything has fallen apart in the tech sector is the sheer worthlessness of so many of the people in it. I have worked with some of the worst programmers I can imagine over the last three years. These people will be shed, but it will be a painful process.
My advice is this: suck it up, do some hobby programming, build a portfolio of samples (nothing sells a candidate like good sample code), and keep on plugging. You'll have to prove yourself.
The whole expatriation thing is a terrible idea. If you go through with it, have fun.
Anonymous Hoser
I read the headline as Exploring Myself, and thought 'Hey, finally, the real news for real nerds, the stuff that matters, a Slashdot article on masturbation'.
I'm in no better of a situation, with my all-powerful BSEE degree. But I am fully confident that no matter where you go, the best opportunities will always be in the U.S. Why else do you think everyone tries to come here to work?
We have an abundance of industries, no bloody civil wars at the moment, a great environment of free speech, and an astronomical average standard of living. Even if you don't get a programming job right now, you'll still be better off than most of the rest of the world. Assuming you could even manage to arrange it, consider the conditions you would have to accept. Work 14 hour days in cramped conditions with 100 people speaking a different language, make perhaps 10% of what you would make in the US, live in a tiny apartment in foreign city, and face termination at any moment because there are 100 more people waiting outside every day to take your place. Yeah, people might joke that it's already this way in the U.S., but that's just not the case. Even if you sell auto parts, or pour concrete, you're still better off.
The economy IS turning around. I'm optimistic even though I was laid off right before Thanksgiving. At this point, 1.5 years of mechanical engineering experience isn't really helping me get an electrical engineering position, but I am confident that I will find something. If you leave now, you might miss out on our next boom. And this one might be real growth, not a bubble of hopes and gambles by investors.
Maybe our garden-variety programming jobs are all moving overseas. OK...maybe this is just a natural progression? We used to make shoes and T-shirts here, right? And then the other developing countries said "Hey, we can do that!" and we moved on to more complex and technological things. Now the other countries have had a chance to pick up some engineering textbooks and say "Hey, we can do that too!" So now it's time to find something even more specialized and technologically advanced. I think that the future of engineering in the U.S. is the consulting specialist. Boilerplate work is already being taken over by other developing countries; here we have to target the jobs that are one-of-a-kind, bordering on actual research instead of just application. I may be wrong, but that's one possibility.
Anyway, get some job, or get some more school. All of this engineering talent floating around in the U.S. is a huge untapped resource, and I happen to know that the U.S. doesn't let untapped resources just sit there forever.
...
The reason the jobs are being exported is that the cost of labor is cheaper there. If you want to get hired as a local working those lower wages, you might have some advantage since you can set yourself up as the interface with those in the US. But, you will be making local salaries.
On the other hand, if you want to get hired as an expat (making US salaries), you're probably out of luck. The expats, especially the expat geek, who make a ton of money in a foreign land and get quite a few fringe benefits are rapidly disappearing. Best bet to be an expat is to get hired in the US and then get transferred to a different office. Even Saudi Aramco, who once really recruited in the US for expat postings in Saudi Arabia, is shrinking its US expat force.
I have a High School degree with only a couple additional formal education classes. I am currently a Senior Software Engineer with a software consulting company that has me in a long term placement at a large multi-national technology firm.
Most every job I have I got through networking. I am president of a local software development group (PC users group for developers) that I attended for years previously. I always try to work with other people to help them so they know I am a resource. I look for opportunities to present at conferences or other groups. I look for writing opportunities and other avenues to promote my skills and abilities.
Sometimes I have worked for far less then I should have for what I was doing, but the result is I have acquired enough experience that my lack of degree is less important. Be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up. The opportunities are there, if you are willing to look.
As an example, I was laid off about a year ago. I had a new job in 2 days, and 3 or 4 other offers within a week. All the offers were from networking. Most the jobs I get interviews through Monster or other listings they say I am over qualified for. Imagine that.
I would eventually like to go to school and get a C.S. degree. But I imagine that I will get my employeer to pay for most of it while they are paying me to work and apply what I learn. Education is a good thing, but it is not what will get you a job.
"Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
Go to German Consulate Info website and look around there for some info on how to get a 5 year work visa for IT and highly technical jobs paying 50K euros a year. They recently opened it up for all non-Germans in an effort to re-tool their IT industry.
I suggest seeking a position with an international company. When I worked for ICL we had Americans living and working in places like Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Zimbabwe. ICL also had many employees in Commonwealth countries. Most people don't want to work overseas so you have a competitive advantage there.
You should know however that such working conditions can lead to "war stories". One of the people I worked with (briefly) was among the last half dozen Europeans to escape from Iran when the Ayatollah came to power. He and his wife had to travel at night across the open desert to escape. Other ICLers had stories about encounters with the Russian Mafia. Yet others came back with mysterious diseases (not kidding).
is there something you're doing that's fatally wrong? like a poorly organized resume? or not conducting yourself properly on an interview? did you remember that after-interview thank you letter?
talk to friends/family and see if they can find anything wrong.
like another poster said, try online job sites, just beware of those hunting for people with 10 years Win2K experience.
A few other people commented that networking is what the difference is. I can't reinforce that more. I lived in Europe for a couple years, working for a medium sized software firm. The reason I had that job (and the two other offers at the time) was because I networked. A history prof from my university happened to have a friend of his wife's who was the HR director of the software firm.
When it came time to leave that firm, I was unable to find anything in that country. The reason was that I didn't network enough to find someone willing to take the chance on a foreigner w/o citizenship or a work permit.
I returned to the US and continued networking and relied on my old contacts to keep me working. It has made all the difference.
Being an expat is tough. Being an expat w/o contacts or a right to work is nearly impossible.
You are better off to do what someone else suggested here and take a 'lesser' position, get some work experience, meet and impress as many people as possible.
I'm in Spokane, a city suffering from chronic economic problems, and I didn't have any trouble getting a job. I sent out a grand total of a half-dozen resumes, got two job interviews, and one job offer (I accepted). A few major factors that helped me get a job were that my degree was a BS in Math and Computer Science, rather than straight CS, that I'd held jobs (computer programming and otherwise) before, and that I'd been involved in several major freeware projects as a hobby.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
You are either really dumb or really naive.
Go ahead, move to India. An unskilled programmer makes about $3,000/yr and often has to work overnight to communicate with people in the US.
There are plenty of good reasons why millions of people migrate to Western nations other than jobs other than work! You don't fathom the difference between your standard of living and that of a third-world citizen.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
In the U.S. there is often no difference between a B.A. and a B.S. Both are four year degrees and, while there is sometimes an inferred difference in the rigors of getting a B.A. instead of a B.S., the reality is that you cannot judge what was involved from the name of the degree alone.
I got a degree from Eastern this past June and went to work full-time the next day (granted, I had an internship with this outfit before that). And Spokane is not exactly a high-tech hotspot, like Seattle or San Jose would be.
I've thought about what I'd consider doing if my job were outsourced...something along the lines of this.
If I were in your situation, I would get some tech experience (of any kind, even the low paying sort), find a partner or three (ah, there's the rub), and form an outsourcing company yourself. That is, land and manage gigs, and get some outsourced help to do some bulletproof coding for you. You will succeed if you stick to the 'commoditized' projects. You'll need lots of design skill, lot of management expertise, QA experience, and a committment to nothing less than excellence. You need to have a reputation for never fucking up, and admitting it if you do. Then , and only then, can you think about landing serious gigs.
Sure, you need more experience, but you could hone some of those skills working on open source projects in the meantime.
I'm sure I'll be flamed for generalizing and simplifying (of course I have a bit), and hear anecdotes of 'my company spent $xMM outsourcing a component to india and it sucked' but frankly, this is what people have been doing for years, just (mostly) inside U.S. borders. I personally have taken a couple of $80k jobs away from big firms by doing just that. I recently managed a job with a developer in New Zealand, and the 'client' in Chicago, London, and Moscow. (I didn't just land it out of the blue though, and that's another post entirely.)
Of course, I'm not talking about stealing the Ebay rebuild project from IBM, but something smaller, more manageable, with a good chance of success. To put it another way, think the Doctor/Pharmacist role. If you have a serious malady, you probably don't want to use a Doctor on the other side of the world, but once you get your prescription (in this case, a bulletproof technical spec), you don't really care where it gets filled, do you?
With that said, the protectionists may now commence flaming...
Vancouver & BC have world's largest outbreak of syphilis
Eventually this may hop over into the general public...
"The area of penetration will no doubt be sensitive." ~ Spock
Why does everyone assume he's talking about India? He doesn't even mention India.
That said, there's a bunch of the usual advice posted that I don't want to repeat, except maybe I'd say pay attention to the "networking" mantra when looking for jobs, and I find it harder to find a job when you have education but no experience. And make sure you're doing stuff: get out of the house, join the local LUG, and keep a log of every job that you apply for, whether doing here or abroad.
Oh yeah, if you do show up on random shores and try to find a job, you'll find it much harder than in the states. If you're serious about it, make sure you have a job lined up before you land. Otherwise you'll be washing dishes in a land where you may not speak the language while you're trying to sort out something better or a return ticket.
I personally was thinking of trying to outsource myself from the US to Ireland and work in some shmoe tech support position there. If I wasn't in the middle of my own university degree I'd seriously look into it.
A BA in Computer Science is not going to get you a job. I don't know where you got that idea. I recently graduated so I know several people who have a BA, BS or even an MS in computer science and they are terrible programmers. All the degree means is that you took a bunch of courses so you might know something about the Science of CS. It says nothing about your ability to produce quality code though. What got me a job offers are my previous 3 years of web development experience and also some networking - the degree was essentially there for looks.
So what now? Go get an internship or get some sort of experience no matter how little pay because if I were an employer, I would not hire a CS person without some solid experience or who can at least show some good code.
Are there any hotspots for American expatriate programmers?"
The unemployment office seems to be a hotspot right now.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
1) Learn dialects of Chinese or Indian.
2) Emmigrate to China or India as a native/English speaking software development go-between.
3) Profit in very small amounts!
Why does everyone immediately start up the old "those evil foreigners are 'stealing' our jobs and the even eviler bosses are letting them!" argument? For years the USA has been getting a free ride on exchange rates since everyone has to have dollars to buy oil. An overly strong dollar makes all imports (including foreign programmers) incredibly cheap, but makes exports expensive and hard to sell.
The dollar has plummeted on currency markets, so steel workers and programmers should start being thankful that their work is more competitive.
And everyone can be thankful that they have a chance to be patriotic and "buy American" now that all those pesky imports have become so expensive again.
I find many of the replies I've received interesting.
I purposely limited/changed some of my information to try to get more general answers from people than if I had been specific and entirely accurate. For example, I already know what country I'm going to next, but I wanted to see where people thought I ought to go.
I was surprised to see how many guys mentioned working in India. AFAIK foreigners are not allowed to be hired there.
It cracked me up how much people harped on how "crappy" the standard of living is in other countries. The fact is the worst home I ever has was in Pennsylvania, complete with cockroaches, mold, and even sulphur and fecal matter in the water. One guy said that I was "naive"...well, the fact I didn't mention that I have lived in other countries before doesn't mean I didn't.
I also didn't mention that I started working professionally in programming in 1998, after a few years of hobby programming--I'm no spring chicken. I've continued to program as a hobby during my downtime. I signed up with Monster in its first year, and it's never been any help to me.
I didn't mention that I have a son. For me, working isn't all about glamor and a huge $30K salary. (Yes, that is good money for where I live.) It's about making enough money to live on and support him. I'm afraid the local mini-marts don't provide that kind of paycheck.
The one piece of advice I keep getting that seems to ring true is about personal networking...which is why I'm looking forward to relying on nepotism, as soon as I find an influential relative.
(And less relevant, but to be accurate: I have a B.A. in Spanish and a B.S. in Computer Science.)
I don't hold it against anybody who gave me useless advice because I didn't tell them everything about myself. But like I said, I was looking for general answers, and I largely got what I wanted.
Thanks for your comments.
Mi klopodas varbi por Esperanto.
"A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S."
I certainly hope that was an element of tongue-in-cheek there, otherwise I would say this: "Dude, get over yourself, you're nothing special."
The reason IT jobs are going overseas is that you can get cheep labor. Stay in the US get a low paying job in order to get some experance, then if you're good or easy to work with you'll be able to move on to somthing better.
If you're having trouble getting invterviews hire someone to rewrite your resume. If you're having trouble landing a job go on interviews for jobs you don't want until you feel comfortable. Temp agancies are good for practice interviews since they're always looking for people and are usualy run by assholes.
When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
Unless you consider all that "math stuff" to be important. ;-)
--Phillip
Can you say BIRTH TAX
Some schools require all the "math stuff" and still call the degree a B.A. You cannot tell from the degree alone what course material the degree covered.
I don't think I wasted their time. If they didn't want to respond, they didn't have to. Aside from the fact that I may use their input in my plans, I am not the only one who can benefit from this discussion. I am apparently not the only guy with expatriation on his mind.
If you think you wasted your time, that's your problem. However, you are probably a troll, who would post something nasty no matter what I said.
Furthermore, you demonstrate why I tried to stay vague and general. People like you all over Slashdot are happy to attack details (relevant or otherwise) and ignorantly go off on tangents about which you know little or nothing, while blatantly ignoring or baselessly refuting key issues.
Mi klopodas varbi por Esperanto.
Having trouble in finding a job I decided to enlist in the Army. I have a BSEE and two years experience in digital circuit design when I was laid off from a large electronics company. I had trouble finding a job, I was able to find a couple temp jobs to pay the bills but nothing permanent. I always told myself since high school that if nothing else the Army would likely take me. (My dad is an ex-Army infantryman who gave me the idea and some prodding recently.) Well I finally gave in and enlisted.
The Army (and I assume the other services have similar deals) will pay my student loans, and give me a nice signing bonus since I'm educated and filled a high demand job. Also because of my education I'll go in with the rank of Specialist (that's an E-4, where most people just out of HS will be an E-1 or E-2, aka Private). While the pay isn't the best, I'll be making 1/3rd what I did as a high paid engineer, the benefits make up for alot. Loans paid, signing bonus, 100% tuition assistance (they pay for any courses I take in my free time), 30 days/year paid vacation, medical/dental/optical all paid, free housing (if I live off base I'll get a housing and food stipend). There are other benefits as well, they'll get me in shape, I get to shoot a gun, they'll teach me another language (I signed up as a linguist), and I'll get to travel. (Yeah yeah, I know the joke, "see the world, meet interesting people, then shoot them" but as a linguist it's unlikely I'll even be issued a weapon.)
I ship out for basic training in two months. Wish me luck.
Have fun in Iraq asshole
In spite of unemployment the German industry can't find enough skilled people (sorry to be blunt, bute there are really dumb people out there in Germany doing IT work) and the Goverment was forced to allow IT workers (mainly from India) to work temporarily as explained above.
The German economy may be in not too good shape, but lack of skilled workers in certain areas may be a contributing factor, not a consequence, ot the economic situation.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Not to say that it doesn't get cold here... it does. It just doesn't get AS cold as some people would like you to think. The whole its-always-snowing thing is only slightly more valid than the concept that all canadians say 'oot and aboot' and 'eh' all the time.
Please, do yourselves and us a favor... tell those asshats coming to visit that it's going to look funny as they cross the border with skis strapped to the roof-rack when they're coming up in JULY.
What can you expect: a booming city with a pretty large gap between poverty and richness. It's bustling with activity, full of ambitious people. If you work against local standards, it's not bad for a few years, especially when you're single. Food and clothing is extremely cheap.
Learning Chinese is not so difficult as it sounds; if only you could speak it, it would be an enormous advantage. You don't have to be able to read and write at first. It's very easy to put a note in one of the universities, where you offer to teach English if the other person would teach you Chinese.
For every nationality, there's a very tight community in Shanghai. Everyone's there on his own, so friendships are forged very quickly with other people from your country. And I also found some cool chinese friends, who would take us out and do cool stuff and sightseeing.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
"you're just a tree-hugging socialist"
I'm a tree-hugging libertarian. Do I have to be a socialist instead, or do all socialists have to be "tree-huggers"?
Gotta go, time for Fox News.
1) Learn dialects of Chinese or Indian.
2) Emmigrate to China or India as a native/English speaking software development go-between.
3) Steal underpants
4) ?
3) Profit in very small amounts!
(Ref: South Park)
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I mean, someone with a BA or BS in Computer Science is just another person looking for a job...
Now, if you push some of your other traits, you might have some better luck.
First, you're willing to relocate, and that's a big thing... it means that you'll go to where they pay's good. But then you also have that liberal arts degree... you might want to look at a company that's trying to sell products to spanish speaking persons -- I would assume that having programmers who are mutlilingual would be an advantage over needing seperate programmers and translators to handle everything. [Yes, yes, I know about i18n, but it helps to have someone who can help debug in the different languages]
Personally, I work as a programmer, and just spent a siginificant time in finding a new job, but I wasn't willing to relocate [not even locally], I'm not willing to deal with a long commute (Washington, DC metro area, but I'm not willing to go to Virginia or Rockville), and I'm rather strict about who I work for [non-profits, education, government]. Luckily, I had some good code samples, and enough savings so I wasn't forced into taking another job where I would slowly killing myself from stress.
Oh...and the other advantage to working oversees -- the first um....$65k? $85k? is tax exempt...check with an accountant. [federal, is my understanding...not sure if it applies to states, too.]
You could also join the military, if you're so inclined...lots of travel there.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Having never applied for unemployment myself... is it possible to collect unemployment immediately out of college?
I was under the impression that you had to get laid off to get unemployment.
Certainly you can't collect unemployment while you have a night job can you?
Um... you just got out of college, surely you know other people in a similar predicament that you could live with.
Twelve years ago when I was just out of college and in a similar situation, I lived half the week in town with current students (rent $35 a month, because I was sharing an un-airconditioned *attic* in the hot virginia summer) and lived the other half of the week on an organic farm (which ended up not paying me, because I didn't push the issue after I saw they were in worse finnancial situation then I was).
I got room and board on the farm, and made about $6 an hour working half time at the hospital as an orderly. (They had an unprecedented situation in the OR that year because all the orderlies had bachelors degrees).
With that money I paid of all my college loans and put 14 percent of my check into a 401K.
After that I moved to Hawaii for a few years and only worked two of them and took six months off before moving back to the mainland, where I easily got a job (boom times).
Life will get better. You're young. Enjoy it.
Erm, if you go overseas to work in India or such, your standard of living is going to go way, way, way down.
Not true. Depending on what sort of position he manages to get you can live a life of luxury in India relatively cheaply. A middle class white collar worker can very easily afford a servant to do cooking and cleaning for them. A very nice property is also affordable.
The problem is that once you move there long term, there is no comming back as your life savings will be near worthless in the states. I and my wife have considered moving to India for a few years so she can be closer to family, but while we could both get good jobs there and live well, it would set us back too far in our retirement savings.
India is great for a healthy 20 something yearold, but unless you are loaded to begin with I would not like to try living my declining years there.
There are roughly 1.4 million active duty in the US armed forces. They are backed up by 1.2 million people in the Guard and Reserve and 700 thousand civilians. Of those 3-4 million people a small percentage are in Iraq. (I couldn't find an approximate number of DOD people in Iraq otherwise I'd compute the percentage for you.)
My chances of ending up in Iraq are the same or less than that of ending up in Texas, California, Hawaii, or Japan. Also if I should end up in Iraq it shouldn't be too bad. With the exception of downtown Baghdad the bulk of Iraq is relatively safe. There the winters are bitterly cold and the summers terribly hot, but so is the midwestern US.
I'm in the Army getting paid, getting an education, and watching my loans disappear as if by magic while my college buddies work part time, looking for a job that requires more than a high school diploma and pays better than minimum wage. If that is being an asshole, then I'm an asshole.
Let's say you've decided to follow the jobs, and want to seek out a software development position in India. As it turns out, there are a number of resources [monsterindia.com] on line to assist you in your quest. A slashdot poster has provided links regarding visas [slashdot.org] , and a little searching on Google can turn up info [google.com] for the low down on the cities you might want to work in.
The upshot: theoretically, it's possible. Now for some reality.
Visas: The Indian government slots visitors in order of preference: persons of Indian hertitage, other persons, Pakistanis and Afghans.
If your ancestry traces back to India, there is a special visa program for you. It's assumed that you've picked up some skills out in the world, and India wants to encourage you to bring 'em home to develop the nation.
If you are of other nationalities, a work visa is available. When applying, you must present documentation from an employer that they will be responsible for you. Good luck on that. If you're bringing a lot of capital and a business plan, well, that's another matter. Your visa must be renewed every year and a half or so.
If you are Pakistani or Afghan, you're due for a lot more scrutiny, and you'll have to submit considerable additional documentation.
Work Environment: Universities in India are pumping out a lot of tech grads, and there aren't yet enough jobs for all of them, although regional labor shortages do occur. Ergo, there's a lot of competition for jobs, so unless you were lead architect on the NT or Linux kernels in your last position (and if you are, you aren't getting outsourced, yet), don't think you're a shoo in. In fact, for an employer [rekha.com] to even go to the bother of hiring you, you'll need to show a truly sterling CV. After all, it's a major business risk and pain in the ass for them to bring you in country in the first place. As an aside, there seems to be opportunity for Japanese speakers now that firms are seeking to tap the demand for outsourcing from Japan. You'll working in a 1.5m square three sided cube, if you're lucky. Some up and coming companies [eximsoft.com] claim to respect that employees might have a life beyond the office, which should tell you what the norm is. When a contract is finished, you may find your ass back out on the street very quickly, just like in the States, and the social safety net assumes you've got family to lean on. You do not want to go broke in India.
Pay Packet: Ranging from INR130000 (US$2900) for a web developer with 2 years experience, to INR1400000 (US$30000) for a senior project manager with an MS. Yes, the scales are down a bit from the OECD, but pretty good for India, so with the addition of your current nest egg, you shouldn't have too much problem maintaining an Indian "middle class" lifestyle. Just keep in mind that Indian middle class priorities aren't always what you're used to. In addition, you aren't getting much credit for Social Security (USA only), and your ability to stash cash for retirement back in the OECD may suck, particularly if you're American.
Renting: As a foreigner, you can't buy property. There is a wide variety of rental properties, ranging from mansions and modern high rise c
Luke, help me take this mask off
I think your impression is largely correct. Take a look at the US tax man's view of taxable income (and note typical attitudes from the site hosting the figures). The top 50% can maintain a comfortable lifestyle, especially if they live in an area where housing is cheap, a major consideration. The top 25% are very comfortable in all but the most expensive cities, and the top 10% are the envy of the world. The top 25% usually enjoy private health benefits that a socialized system can't afford to match.
If you're in the bottom 50%, the Portugese start to look pretty lavish, but the poorest of these people are out in the vast rural hinderlands, or the racial ghettos of large cities, and so out of sight to everyone else.
If you wonder how Americans stand for this situation, it's a perception issue: When polled, most Americans have (or are giving) the mistaken impression that they personally are in the top 25%. Those that know they aren't assume they soon will be. That runs through all but the most beaten down, the idea that someday they're going to "make it". As a result, efforts to make them comfortable where they are seen as taking away their shot at the big time. Ergo, the Swedish model is distained by many.
Luke, help me take this mask off
However, the experience that you get is invaluable and will look good later on the resume. The maintrick for resume engineering is to work for a recognisable organisation.
This is untrue. The Indians - ordinary Indian sw engineers and IT workers - also benefit from US jobs shipped to India.
And why not? Isn't it kind of racist or jingoistic to think US sw engineers have a special right to those jobs just because we're Americans? This is why so many people hate Americans - because we think we somehow "deserve" our priveleged lifestyle. There are plenty of Indians who can program C++ or Java for $10K just as well as an American can for $80K.
Also, India is a poor country - if an Indian loses his job he could literally starve. Americans don't starve to death, they just get their SUV's repo'd and end up getting jobs at Walmart. The average Walmart worker is still better off than the average Indian, so it's hard to argue that Americans have some kind of higher moral right to those jobs than Indians.
Americans talk about jobs going to India and China like there's some huge moral injustice going on. We talk about Indians and Chinese "taking our jobs away". But if we prevent it then aren't we taking their jobs away? Why does an $80K American sw engineer deserve that job more than a $10K Indian sw engineer?