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Biometrics in the Workplace

ryth writes "The Globe and Mail reports that McDonald's Restaurants and a few other companies in Canada have introduced palm-scanning technologies for employees. Workers are now expected to 'sign' in and out using their palm prints to record the exact time of arrival and the identity of the employee. Quoted in the article Jorn Nordmann, president of S.M. Products, was blunt about why he installed a hand scanner at his fish-processing plant in Delta, B.C. 'If you want to control a whole bunch of people, it's the only way to go.' It seems that some of the most underpaid and undervalued workers are starting to be treated no better than the animals they are frying up." Except for the frying part.

73 of 554 comments (clear)

  1. Swipe Card by BigDork1001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While not as high-tech why not just stick with a punch card or swipe card. Sure you can get a few people who will punch in for someone every once and a while or something what's the big deal. This just sounds like a gigantic waste of money to me.

    --
    "Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home" - Cicero
    1. Re:Swipe Card by Slick_Snake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Sure you can get a few people who will punch in for someone every once and a while or something what's the big deal. This just sounds like a gigantic waste of money to me.

      Paying for employees time when they are not there is a waste of money too.

      The point is more about forcing the employees to be responcible and accountable. Just about everywhere I worked cared more about your atendance and puncuality than they did about any other aspect of our with. Its not like is any different that using punch cards other than the employees can't cheat the system.

    2. Re:Swipe Card by dummkopf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's not just the swipe card, you also want to make sure that whoever swiped the card is the person on it. i think the idea is to check when people come and go and make sure cousin jake is not filling in for you while you have a cold...

    3. Re:Swipe Card by Dilbert_ · · Score: 5, Funny

      I guess this also explains those 'Employees are expected to wash their hands after using the lavatory' signs then ;-)

      --
      superblog.org: all your favourite blogs on o
    4. Re:Swipe Card by McLuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I used to work at a McDonalds in a regional area of Victoria, Australia, and even we had electronic clock in/out computers, where you entered and assigned code so they could record and pay you to the exact amount of minutes you worked.

    5. Re:Swipe Card by B'Trey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What makes this "draconian?" How is it different from punching a time clock or swiping a card? It's simply an alternate method to clock in. In one sense, it makes things easier for the worker. There's no longer any need to keep track of an ID card. Is there something inherently undignified about placing your hand on a scanner that doesn't exist in the act of scanning a card? Why is the former worker being disrespected and latter not?

      I suspect that most opposition to this is merely knee-jerk reaction to biometrics.

      That isn't to say that there aren't issues with the use of biometrics in all situations. The key is whether or not the use of the biometrics coincieds with a legitimate need to establish identity, and whether or not it exposes the user to additional risks or invasion of privacy.

      Street corner cameras, for example, which purport to scan for wanted crimials, are an outrage. The government has no legitimate interest in establishing my identity merely because I stand on a street corner. It is recording information about me and my location which I have not authorized, and which I may not, for a variety of legitimate reasons, want known. It opens me up to the risk of being falsely detained in the event of a false positive. There is simply no justification for it, and many reasons to oppose it.

      Biometrics are not inherently bad, and they can be used legitimately. The fact that they can also be used indiscriminately and inappropriately is not justification to oppose their use in all circumstances.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    6. Re:Swipe Card by rcamera · · Score: 2, Funny

      but what if they lose a hand? they would no longer be able to access the building. hr says 'here you go... another hand. but don't lose this one!'

      --
      Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
    7. Re:Swipe Card by HMA2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The government has no legitimate interest in establishing my identity merely because I stand on a street corner. It is recording information about me and my location which I have not authorized, and which I may not, for a variety of legitimate reasons, want known.

      It is called "public" for a reason. When you go out in "public" you give up a certian amount of privacy. That is the way the world works. Next thing you know you'll be telling me the Department of transportation shouldn't be videotaping the roads because those videos may capture somebody in a comprimising position. It's ridiculous.

    8. Re:Swipe Card by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While not as high-tech why not just stick with a punch card or swipe card. Sure you can get a few people who will punch in for someone every once and a while or something what's the big deal. This just sounds like a gigantic waste of money to me.

      The math is simple enought even for the dumbest of business people. He only needs to ask whether or not the money spent on this device is less than or greater than the money stolen from him.

      I think the fact that he's willing to spend so much money on such a device suggests that the incidence of theft is much greater than you think.

      I also want to say that it's disturbing that you take lightly dishonesty. Things like morality and ethics aren't just stupid games philosophers play. What people believe is right and wrong has a real, though indirect impact on society. It ultimately come back to you, although for most people it's difficult to see.

      This very story is about some of those more obvious impacts. The owner can't trust his employees to do the right thing, so energy and resources must be wasted on this device -- energy and resources that could have gone elsewhere and put to more productive use. He's unhappy and the employees are unhappy.

      Ultimately, a proper moral code tries to guide people to make good decisions that lead us generally away from such economically wasteful and socially unhappy situations a this. I don't think it's too far off to suggest that dishonesty and theft are not part of such a moral code.

    9. Re:Swipe Card by sebmol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's nobody's business where I am or what I am doing at any particular time, especially in public. Therefore, cameras that just record road traffic aren't legitimate either. Just because you choose to leave your house doesn't mean you lose your privacy and personality rights.

      --
      "Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
    10. Re:Swipe Card by HMA2000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually it does. When you go out into public you forfiet many of your rights to privacy. This is why we have concepts like public and private.

      A street corner where you are outside on property that is maintained by the taxpayers is public. Your living room is private.

      I am not saying you lose all rights to privacy when you go outside but to say it is "an outrage" for someone to take your picture when you go outside is absurd.

    11. Re:Swipe Card by cmacb · · Score: 4, Funny

      "It's nobody's business where I am or what I am doing at any particular time, especially in public."

      Yeah, I agree!

      Just because I go to work for someone doesn't mean they have the right to know where I am or what I'm doing. It's bad enough that I have to give them my address for them to mail my check to. Now they want to track me for 8 hours a day too?! Give them an inch and they'll take a mile every time! I bet this is more the work of that Ashcroft guy. I bet Howard Dean has heard some rumors about this. You just wait and see!

    12. Re:Swipe Card by mwood · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Then perhaps police officers should not be permitted to patrol the streets."

      Goodness, yes. They might accidentally look at somebody.

      I think someone completely rewrote the definition of "privacy" when we weren't looking.

    13. Re:Swipe Card by Grant_Watson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And now, what "rights" are these? I haven't seen too many laws priotecting your "privacy and personality" rights in public.

      I'm not saying that I entirely agree with the grandparent, but legal rights are not the only kind of rights one has. Just because it's lawful for a government (or corporation, or individual) to do something doesn't mean it should -- moral rights should at least be considered.

      Now, whether there's a moral right to privacy is another question.

    14. Re:Swipe Card by penultimatepost · · Score: 2
      Things like morality and ethics aren't just stupid games philosophers play. What people believe is right and wrong has a real, though indirect impact on society. It ultimately come back to you, although for most people it's difficult to see.

      I agree whole heartedly with you on the value of ethics and morality. However the game is stacked against the common worker: see Enron, Mutual Funds, Parmalat, Tyco... And it is no secret that most corporations, at least public ones, cannot be trusted to do right by their employees, b/c in the end what matters to "them" is the bottomline.

    15. Re:Swipe Card by sebmol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That really depends on your jurisdiction. In the US, that's what the 9th amendment is talking about. In other jurisdictions such as the European Union, privacy and personality rights are actually spelled out in respective constitutions and EU treaties.

      Either way, whatever rights I have isn't limited to what the government "gives" me. The government doesn't give you any rights. It's the people giving the government the rights to conduct their business.

      --
      "Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
    16. Re:Swipe Card by mc6809e · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Workplace morale is the employer's responsibility, though, especially in a high-turnover workplace like this. If so many people are so willing to cheat him, he needs to ask himself why. "Because they can" is not the answer.

      Are you sure? I've worked with people that used just that sort of logic. They think they're just being practical. They actually think it's a sign of weakness and naivete to consider such things as morality and ethics. If you bring it up, they just pat you on the head like you're a kid.

      I'm not sure that putting in a system which is almost guaranteed to lower morale further is the best solution.

      Maybe, but the fault lies with those that are dishonest, not with the owner.

      The best solution is more public discussion about morality, ethics, and their purpose in a civil society.

      Now for some armchair psychology... Perhaps he chose this particular solution because it allowed him to continue believing that "they" are the problem, not him. Fixing it is simply a matter of keeping them "under control."

      "A proper moral code" is a two-way street. If you expect someone to treat you fairly, you had better see to it that he feels treated fairly by you. Otherwise, it's too easy for him to justify moral transgressions by telling himself, "I'm only taking what I deserved in the first place." My guess is that most of the people who cheated this employer used similar justifications.

      I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right. But I am saying that actions have consequences. If his employees feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are getting screwed, they are more likely to screw him back. It doesn't make it right, but there it is.


      Ah, there's the rub: how do we determine what is fair?

      As far as I can tell, "unfair" has been reduced to meaning "I don't like it."

  2. Control Central by hplasm · · Score: 5, Funny
    'If you want to control a whole bunch of people, it's the only way to go.'

    Coming soon to a population center near you...

    --
    ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
  3. Better make sure... by xSquaredAdmin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    that people wash their hands before coming to work, because if everyone is putting their hand on the scanner, there could definitely be some health issues.

    --
    Crushing dreams at the speed of sarcasm
    1. Re:Better make sure... by DigitumDei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unlike that door handle they most likely touched while coming into the building?

  4. huh? by selacious · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Check me if I'm wrong Sammy, but I don't see how making employees sign in and out is all that terrible. Would it make people feel better if these employees pushed a button to sign in instead of having their palms scanned?

    1. Re:huh? by pubjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Check me if I'm wrong Sammy, but I don't see how making employees sign in and out is all that terrible. Would it make people feel better if these employees pushed a button to sign in instead of having their palms scanned?

      Yes, I'm an employer and I think you're absolutely right. You can't trust people to do the right thing, so must treat them like children or animals.

      They should have pay docked by the minute if they're late. Of course if they're a early that time doesn't count, and of course if at the end of the day it takes them longer to finish than the hours you are paying them for, them that must be their fault so they shouldn't be paid for that either.

      At my company, all employees wear a special hat with a cam and microphone pointed at thier faces, so that we can see and hear them at any time. If they are doing or saying anything that isn't strictly work related, we dock those minutes from their pay too. It is very efficient - it keeps our salary bills low. We do have some problems with staff retention though.

    2. Re:huh? by DigitumDei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think selacious was saying that biometrics is no different from a button or punch cards. And it isn't, whether its punch cards/buttons/biometrics, its still a manager looking at a name/number with a time next to it and not having a clue what that employee.

      Bad/good management determines whether a time recording system works or doesn't, the technology just makes it harder to cheat. So now the honest guy who is late by 5 minutes doesn't get into trouble while the sneaky guy comes in half an hour late, safe in the knowledge that his card is already swiped.

    3. Re:huh? by Zigg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting. At my workplace, we don't use obscenely hyperbolic arguments to attempt to defend against completely reasonable points.

  5. No big changes by Oculus+Habent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is old business with a new timecard. Some businesses (people, really) watch the one- and two-minute differences with no forgiveness.

    Is it so significant that a palm scanner is being used now? It prevents deception - it's unlikely you'll cut off a hand for your friend to clock you in early. Other than that, it means you can't lose your timecard (major accidents excepted). Oh, and you might want to wash your hands more...

    --
    That what was all this school was for... to teach us how to solve our own problems. -- janeowit
    1. Re:No big changes by Fringe · · Score: 4, Insightful
      1: Scanning your palm turns you from a human being with feelings, rights, privelages, and the whole 9 yards into data on a computer. Don't believe me?
      No more than timecards or even paychecks do. You should, as a matter of principle, refuse to cash your paycheck because it serves as an unholy trilateral collusion to reduce you to a vector of numbers: Your employee number, paygrade and hours at the employer, your incremental and net worth plus I.D. at the bank and your social security number and total taxes at the government.

      Prove to us that you are a man of principle: Show us your years of uncashed paychecks. Don't let The Man take advantage of you anymore!
    2. Re:No big changes by RealAlaskan · · Score: 3, Funny
      Prove to us that you are a man of principle: Show us your years of uncashed paychecks.

      You're joking, but I had a co-worker who really did this. He didn't cash any paychecks for over a year: his savings account was pretty big, and he just never got around to taking them to the bank.

      Finally, he needed to buy something big, and got out his stack of paychecks. He noticed that some of them were stale dated, so he carried them over to the business office of the small, struggling computer business we worked for. A minute later, the book keeper ran upstairs to see the president, her face white as a sheet. If he had cashed the checks which were still valid, he'd have bankrupted the business.

      They worked out an installment plan to get him paid, and made him promise to ALWAYS cash his checks the day he got them.

      While the business lasted, we joked about his ``attempt to take over the business''.

  6. Low pay always means more control by tobybuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Talking call centers which I know a bit about, it always seems to be the case that the lower you pay someone the more control the employer wants over them.

    1. Re:Low pay always means more control by Afty0r · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Talking call centers which I know a bit about, it always seems to be the case that the lower you pay someone the more control the employer wants over them.

      While what you say is true, the truth is more obvious the other way around:
      The less your employers NEED to control you, the more you will get paid
      In other words, honest, hard working, exemplary and talented individuals get paid more.
    2. Re:Low pay always means more control by houghi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Talking call centers which I know a bit about, it always seems to be the case that the lower you pay someone the more control the employer wants over them.

      It all depends on what you do with the information available. If you use it to make people more productive, it is not necesarily a bad thing. It then depends how you do it and if you are within reason in your demands.

      If you use the techniligy as a big Brother touy you will in the long run get not what you want, wich is a better working force. What you get is control. If you want control, you can get it, if you want a better workforce, you can also get it by using the control tools to see where, who and what to improve.

      I have used control systems to take out the rotten apples and at the same time improved the quality of the workforce. Quality meaning e.g. people taking breaks when it is possible and let people be aware why it is important. If control is the only tool you use, you are doing something wrong in the long run.

      In my opnion the 'control' is there from top to bottom. The agent is measured by his calls, the supervisor is measured by his team, the manager is measured by his budget. It is the perception of control that might be stronger. Explain why you are measuring things and people will come with ideas to improve.
      You can compare it to measure the speed of a program and why it should be running that fast. Someone who is interested will try to make it faster. So involvement is the key and control is just a tool. Do not forget: wolves also eat counted sheep. :-)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  7. This is no different to a Timecard system... by MrRTFM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... or a nosy receptionist.

    What am I missing here - they are paying for labour, so why shouldn't they make sure people start on time?

    --
    You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
  8. Their time, their rules by sam0ht · · Score: 5, Insightful


    When your employer is paying for your time, they have a right to measure how much of it they are getting. Just like you have a right to put that bag of sugar on the scales and check that it really is 1kg.

    Seems reasonable enough to me, anyway.

  9. Canadian law? by tuxette · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I'm not very familiar with the new Canadian privacy law, but the article seems to imply that the protection of an individual's personal data only applies to the individual as a consumer, not the individual as an employee. It also implies that as an employee, your personal data can, in some instances, be used for other purposes than the original purpose for its collection. (Any Canadian privacy experts out there who can enlighten me and the rest of us?)

    If what I assume is correct, there is no reason for McDonalds to not use the hand/fingerprint data in some other way, if they wanted to, for example checking for criminal records, as mentioned in the article. They say they won't use the data for anything else, but they have also said their food is healthy. Would employees have the right to be informed if McDonalds suddenly used the hand/fingerprint data for something other than clocking in and out? Plus, it is not impossible for this data to be stolen and then abused. Who would then be responsible, under Canadian law? If employees have weaker protection under the law, does this mean that employers aren't required to secure the personal data of its employees the same way an e-tailer is required to the secure personal data of its customers?

    Another problem is what happens when this technology becomes mainstream, and used in most workplaces. It is understandably used in workplaces where security is an issue, and for now it's only McDonalds and a handful of other places that do not have the same security concerns as say, a nuclear power plant. The more use, the more potential for abuse. Workers need to have their rights secured before these devices are used. I just hope Manitoba (and the other provinces lacking strong provincial privacy legislation) wake up and create new laws to protect the people!

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
    1. Re:Canadian law? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm not very familiar with the new Canadian privacy law, but the article seems to imply that the protection of an individual's personal data only applies to the individual as a consumer, not the individual as an employee

      Fortunately, the UK's Data Protection Act doesn't differentiate between the two. You can look up any employer and see exactly what they claim to store.

      (With "claim" beinging the operative world here!! I live in the real world)

      PS, fingerprint scanners are common-as-muck in Glasgow pubs. Must be an efficency/speed thing... ;-)

  10. Is it THAT bad? by The-Bus · · Score: 3, Interesting
    His 50 employees would often "buddy-punch," meaning that they would punch the time clock for people who had not shown up. "They're typical workers," Mr. Nordmann said. "It's not nice work. You have a lot of turnover. You have them one week, and the next week they're gone. You can't tell the faces any more."


    This is a completely valid viewpoint. My main question is how is this an invasion of privacy? I wouldn't have a problem scanning in my hand to check in to work -- but it seems that a lot of people do. I guess letting companies having biometric information could be the beginning of a long and slippery slope, but I can't really see a worst case scenario... someone care to visualize it for me?

    In other news, this would meet a lot greater resistance if McDonald's allowed its workers to form unions. The restaurants have some of the worst turnover because the working conditions are abismal and the company squashes any attempts at its workers to form unions. More information can be found in the book Fast Food Nation which I definitely recommend as a good read -- it goes into worker treatment at both fast food restaurants as well as meat packing plants and the entire fast food industry as a whole, from advertising to production to health issues. I recommend as a read although be warned, you may not want to go back to McDonald's again. I haven't gone back. But that's because their food tastes like crap.
    --

    Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

  11. We have a swipe in/out card by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 2, Informative

    And swipe access to some of the internal doors. If you haven't swiped in at the entrance you can't get through the internal doors, it's a kind of login system. It may well be used for time monitoring but it's main purpose is security, they also use it to produce a checklist of employees who are in the building in the event of a disaster like a fire.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  12. Re:selfridges london has it already by hplasm · · Score: 5, Funny
    Sounds like the system isn't being used properly cos they never get the overtime calculated right...

    Ain't that like management? Check the employee in/out times with an atomic clock, work out the overtime with a sundial...

    --
    ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
  13. So? Punch cards are old hat. by Baavgai · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not sure what issue taken with this is. Everyone who works a regular job is expected to show up on time and stay the duration of the day. Many jobs have some kind of time card system in place to help monitor this. That the system is more automated and exact would only be of concern to those who wish to cheat the system.

    I work for a public utility. We had the hand punch system years ago. ( I always threatened to make a rubber hand, but never got around to it. ) Now we have the finger print reader instead. Overall, it tends to help both sides, since employees can often prove they were on site even if their supervisors weren't sure.

    As a side note, biometric data can leak. Our finger print database is intentionally stored at a slightly lower resolution than the federal standard. The reason is that if we kept government quality information, we'd be required to surrender a copy of that information to the government. Now that's scary.

  14. Wrong approach by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Insightful

    His 50 employees would often "buddy-punch," ... "They're typical workers," Mr. Nordmann said. "It's not nice work. You have a lot of turnover. You have them one week, and the next week they're gone. You can't tell the faces any more."

    What a wonderful view of workers. Sort of Victorian workhouse style. He could always try treating his staff well enough that they don't cheat the system or quit all the time.

  15. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At a couple jobs I've worked I was expected to punch in and out. When I arrived, I took a card and put it in a stamper, same whenever I left. Was used to track my hours. Seems like a perfectly reasonable request by an employer, that they might want to know what hours you worked.

    However time card have problems. They are easily damaged, since they are just paper. Also it is possible to get confused, and grab the wrong card, I did that on one occasion. However more important to an employer, another employee could punch a friend in, making it appear as if they were there.

    This eliminates problems and just streamlines everything. You scan you plam, it knows you are you and clocks you in. Scan again to clock out. No confusion and no practical way to fake it.

    This in no way limits your privacy your rights or anything else. You employer has a right to know when you are working for them. And guess what? If the system is lax, people will abuse it. Like now I work at a university and all hourly positions (which is only student positions really) simply fill out a timebook once a week, which is then signed by their supervisor. So what happens? You guessed it, people cheat. A student will show up to work 15 minutes late, take a long lunch, and slip out 30 minutes eairly yet still report a full work day.

    It works the other way too. Makes it much harder for a company to screw you. Say you need to work late. They decide they don't want to pay you for that time to try to claim you weren't there. Hard for them to say if there is a palm scan record of you leaving. Much easier to say if there is no record, or just a punch card.

    1. Re:No kidding by front · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Makes it much harder for a company to screw you."

      Are you that naive? Palm scanning, or other high-tech "people control" equipment, is brought into a company to benefit the employer mainly and the employee hardly. It is done to keep salary costs low... which benefits the employer mainly.

      Clock cards are all well and good. I used one when I was younger and working in a printing factory for a few months. However I sure would not have wanted my employer to have a scan of my hand... fingerprints or palmprints. Why? Well who is going to oversee the records and make sure that they are not handed out to anyone who wants a copy?

      Companies have enough info on their staff already... might as well throw in a voiceprint too and the unscrupulous will have a ready made set of IDs.

      "Makes it much harder for a company to screw you." is what you said... yet in the article Colin Bennett, a politics professor at the University of Victoria, was quoted as saying "The employees would have little recourse if their information was misused."

      Don't try to find the silver lining in that cloud mate.

      cheers

      front

    2. Re:No kidding by rizzo420 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how do you misuse a palm-print? i think the use of the social security number as a student ID number by like 90% of american universities is a much larger security/personal-privacy issue than using biometrics to clock in and out. the palm print system is the best way for an employer to make sure his employees aren't cheating the system. i happen to be one of those university supervisors who manages a staff of students and they just fill out their own time sheets. easy to cheat. i also worked at a university and filled out the time sheet. same thing and it did go through my head a couple times to cheat and make a little more, but we were restricted to a certain number of hours per week and i already worked pretty close to the max.

      mcdonalds employees, whether you like it or not, are not the most honest people. the kinds of kids that work at mcdonalds generally do so because they really need the money or their parents made them get a job. it's easy with a regular punch card to have your friend clock you in and you show up an hour late or something. it's also easy to grab the wrong card. this way you can't screw up. this way your employer knows when you're there and when you're not which is their ABSOLUTE RIGHT in being your employer. if you don't like the fact that you might lose your job because you can no longer cheat the system, then quit, you shouldn't be working anywhere for any employer.

      that's great that a college professor spoke out against it, but WHAT INFORMATION IS STORED IN YOUR PALM PRINT THAT THEY CAN MISUSE????? nothing. last i checked, my palm print was not on file anywhere in the country. my finger prints are on file in the state of CT because i used to work in a high school and that's the law. should i be fighting that system because it's put in place to protect the students (and me if you really get down to it)? no. what can i do with a copy of someone's palm print? nothing really. i can't easily go and make a fake palm to get them in trouble. you want to fight privacy issues, fight the american university system against using SSN's as ID numbers.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    3. Re:No kidding by Void_of_light · · Score: 2, Informative

      I work for a small to midsized company 400-500 employees and we just installed the hand scanners to be used for payroll. So far the employees love it no problems with losing a time card all the machines are syncd so the time on one side of the plant is the same as on the other and no one can sign in a friend early or an enemy out early. Our hand scanners also do not take fingerprints. Its mearly a 3d image of the hand even if we gave that info to everyone that asked what could you do with it. This has no security issues that I can see and many advantages over a time clock system.

  16. But you (probably) won't loose your hand by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We have swipe card doors at work. It's nice since it's much more convienent than carrying 50 different keys around since it seems like every lock is keyed differently.

    However, just like with keys, and even more frequently, people forget their card. I have a cube near the door to our room and I'm ALWAYS getting up to let someone in that forgot their card. No big deal, since it's just door access. Someone else can let them in or they can borrow a card. Bigger deal if it is needed to clock in, means they have to go back home.

    Personally, I'd really like to see biometrics more. It'd just hard to loose. For high security areas/things you need other authentication, of course (like a passocde and/or keycard) in addtion but for most things a simple print is good enough. I've lost my wallet, I've lost my keys, but I've never lost my hand.

    1. Re:But you (probably) won't loose your hand by whovian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing that bugs me is the dipshits whom you *don't* know who apparently forget their keycards and hover around the door waiting to sneak in behind someone else. Friends and spouses of employees do this all the time. What's the point of having a keycarded door if not only do people let others in but people can expect to be let in eventually?

      If not a biometric device, there could be a real person sitting at every entrance to help eliminate this nonsense. Of course you'd have to pay them enough to encourage them to care, but then the employee has to ask himself whether it's worth it.

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
  17. It can be profitable by Ich+Bin+Zu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We installed a fingerscanning device a couple of years ago for signing in and out of work. The system works by allowing a person to be late at for work or going out early for up to 7 hours per month. After that, we penalize their salary for every extra minute after the 7 hours. Since then, we have covered the cost of the devices from all the salary penalities.

  18. We Don't All Have Palms by 1024x768 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Learned this from a /. post a long time ago and it has guided me in our company's quest for a 2nd factor of authentication. We don't all have the same body parts and a biometric solution needs to work for 100% of the users.

  19. Firsthand Experience by N8F8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It wan't biometrics but it wasa so-called "smart card". In the early 90's I was stationed aboard the USS Enterprise when the Navy decided to test a smartcard system. A small strip on your ID card contained identifying information. We were required to swipe as we came and left the worplace. Afer the first month big brother handed our reports by division what the average hours spent per week wer. Afterthe second month they were identifying to the workcenter level. Before it got to the per-person level the system came to an abrupt end. I'm pretty sure some phonecalls to elected officials got the program sidelined. You really don't know how little you matter to your employer till they consider you litte more than a tiny statistic.

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
  20. exactly- prevents theft by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Check me if I'm wrong Sammy, but I don't see how making employees sign in and out is all that terrible.

    ...especially since the #1 problem with timecards, according to a friend who manages a small manufacturing business, is that employees regularly clock each other in/out as favors.

    So lets get this straight- it prevents theft and reduces peer pressure("Hey bob, clock me in early tomorrow, will ya? The kid needs new braces.") It involves absolutely nothing intrusive(I fail to see how storing the dimensions of your hand is intrusive) and is merely an improvement on a system that's been in use for almost a CENTURY.

    What's the problem here? That biometrics are evil?

  21. Bad not necessarily because of privacy... by Ba3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My major concern in these rigid employee control devices is not so much a privacy invasion, as a reduction in trust and spontaneity. If people don't feel like they can cheat or bend the system a little (sneak in late, take an extra 15 min on lunch), they focus alot more on how much work controls their life.

    A little workplace entropy distracts from the oppressive order of day to day work.

  22. Makes sense by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For many reasons:

    1) Lower pay jobs tend to be hourly. Well if employers are paying by the hour, they want to maje sure they get what they pay for. Likewise by the hour jobs generally include OT pay, which they don't want to pay if they can avoid it. Higher pay jobs are more often salaried so it doesn't matter as much. Sure you may come into work 15 minutes late but you also may be asked to work all weekend at no extra pay.

    2) Lower pay jobs tend to be more time oriented, less results oriented. Like McDonalds. It is important that you are there for the time they expect. Why? Well because at any time customers may come in and require your services and you need to be there fore that. Much less important as a software developer. It's just important that you get the software done, regardless of if that happens 0900-1700 or 0000-0800.

    3) People tend to care less about lower pay jobs. If you make $5.15 an hour, how movtivated are you to give it your all, really? I know I wasn't. I would have been perfectly happy to slip out if I could. There's quite a bit more motivation if you make $100,000/year to keep your job.

    Not saying it's all justified or anything, but there are legit reasons why an employeer would want to keep a closer eye on a lower payed employee.

  23. Free the oppressed worker kill the capitalist pigs by Thorizdin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Its obvious that there are lots of folks here who have never had to lead a team of people to do anything, much less work. Not that I am holding up McD's as a paragon of virtue (they aren't) but this is about as sinister as when a former neigbor of mine let me know that the US Post Office changes the stamps in circulation as part of a world wide code to communicate with the angels living here on earth. :-)

    In any environment where you have high turn over finding a way to track workers is critical, especially in low margin businesses like fast food. Business implements changes out of (hopefully intelligent) self interest, not part some conspiracy to "control" workers. Now, do there need to be safeguards in place to make sure corporations don't share biometrics as well as other personal data, absolutely. However, American corporations are so afraid of being sued most only confirm employement dates of former employees, rather than telling the truth, even when the former employee deserves a negative review. So I find it hard to imagine the circumstance where some minimum wage worker's handprint is so valuable that a corporation is willing to part with the data, and take the risk of a high profile lawsuit. The only real exception to this is of course, the government. There is a potential for abuse there, and if I were a potential employee I would like to know what the employer's policy on information requests from law enforcement looks like, ie do they require a subpoena etc. Also how long will the company keep the information would be something I would ask.

  24. Want to be Subversive? by fuzzybunny · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've peripherally dealt with a few biometric identification systems deployments, and there are three major factors to consider:

    -False positives (%)
    -False negatives (%)
    -Acceptance

    The first two are objectively measurable over time. The latter covers peoples' reluctance to, say, put a DNA probe in their mouth, or put their eye to a retinal scanner for fear of catching pinkeye, or whatnot.

    Biometrics themselves can be used to _identify_ someone, but relying on them as a catch-all solution to _authenticate_ is lame (authentication is performed by a combination of what you know, what you have, or what you are--think ATM card + PIN code.) Biometric systems are, under certain circumstances, a good complement to another ID mechanism, no different, for example, than using a GSM card for your mobile phone.

    That said, I don't like biometric systems for something like timesheet checking. Aside from the fact that it's undignified and ham-handed (looks great on powerpoint!) there is the danger of non-repudiation in the case of a false positive. Most technical types understand this concet, but do you really think your average manager will believe Joe Frycook that he was present, if for some reason the handprint scanner had a glitch?

    The other thing I take issue with is the possibility of a leak or misuse of sensitive data. A time card or ID is a physical object, usually limited to a specific use. However, if an employer has, say, a perfect thumbprint scan of mine, what's stopping him from sharing it? From using it in other, less legitimate areas (hiring a private security firm to check my laptop to see if I'm letting my girlfriend use it, whatever.) Sound paranoid?

    It bugs me to see responses along the lines of "if you've nothing to hide, why are you concerned?" I'm concerned because, first, I'm a bit of a naive idealist and believe that people should be treated like human beings, not innately distrusted. And second, I've seen some fairly catastrophic examples of what can go wrong with any technology.

    That said, there's a sociological theory that every human being has an innate tendency to want to sabotage authority in some small way--riding the bus without a ticket, cheating on their taxes, etc. My own insignificant little tactics involve trying to make factor #3, acceptance, lower for biometric ID systems--sneeze on eyeball scanners, smear boogers on hand readers, stick gum on camera lenses, whatever.

    A few years ago, some German state had to hire private security guards to watch speed cameras, because the locals were taking shotguns to 'em. Cost them a lot of money, and sent a bit of a signal. I'm no anarchist, but occasionally the yay-biometrics mob could use a bit of the same medicine.

    --
    Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
    1. Re:Want to be Subversive? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The fingerprint/handprint systems I've seen do not store a scan of your finger. They store the junctions where lines come together as a sort of constellation. As such they are similar to a cryptographic hash, and are really not useful for anything other than identifying your hand/finger/what have you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  25. Biometrics can be bad but a primarily benign by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First off, your employer has a right to track your hours. This is a good thing so long as they don't start nickel, diming and whining when your a minute or two late. Biometrics would also be a good thing when combined with your credit card. Pretty hard to fake a handprint or thumbprint. Biometrics could also prevent us sysadmins from constantly resetting passwords. If we used a thumbprint for the pasword, it would be hard to duplicate and hard for users sharing signons (my biggest beef now).

    BTW, Fast food isn't the only place the beef about being a minute or two late. I once worked for Meijer, a family owned chain of gorcery/superstores and they would chew you out whenever your one minute late into or out of work, breaks and lunches. I don't know if tehy stil do this, but when I worked, Meijer had a saying...the run for 1. They wanted to have only 1 percent overhead. That meant you sold a lot of damaged goods (at a SLIGHLTLY reduced price) as long as the packaging wasn't mangled too bad. I thought it was nuts and eventually they did drop it realizing it was impossible to do this. Nickel and diming employees regarding their time is just counterproductive and will result in you loosing a employee who may have just had a bad commute or a bad morning wrestling with the kids and is normally on time and a very good worker. I ain't saying you should not punish repeat offenders or even defining a standard, but if someone is late say once in 3 months, I think that is pretty good! Another thing that could be done is for every minute your late, you stay over that many minutes. Also, use overlapping schedules. If you schedule so tight that you can't afford to have people that are late, that's YOUR problem, not your employee's.

    --

    Gorkman

  26. Metrics by Detritus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are grossly underestimating the allure of metrics. One of today's management fads is to reduce everything to numbers. If it can't be easily measured, it must not be important. Managers are told to set measurable goals in their performance planning. This forces them to look for things that can be measured, whether they are material to the success of the business or not. Joe Shmoe being five minutes late may not be important. Joe Shmoe screwing up a metric that is one of his manager's performance goals is a major problem, as it directly affects his manager's performance evaluation and status in the company.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  27. Yes, it is a privacy violation by gillbates · · Score: 4, Interesting

    IIRC, a law was recently passed which allows the FBI to collect a business' records without a subpeona. Which means that if your employer has your fingerprints, so does the FBI.

    Someone could very easily lose their anonymity by simply working for the wrong employer. The Burlington Northern example is a case in point - IIRC, employees were forced to undergo mandatory genetic testing; those with a genetic tendency toward carpal tunnel syndrome were fired. Now the FBI has access to the genetic information for every one of BN's employees who was tested.

    To be honest, the confidentiality promises a company makes mean nothing. Every company has a disclaimer stating that they will divulge information to comply with law enforcement and some (such as Ebay) make it a point to market this service to law enforcement.

    Our lives are no longer private. If it is in a company database somewhere, the FBI now has access to it. The only safe option is to not turn over information you don't want the government to have to anyone, for any reason.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  28. That's very nice but.. by fille · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I remember that a Belgian athlete (judo) could not enter the Olympic village at the Atlanta (?) games because he had injured his hand and it was swollen. The palm recognition thing refused to grant him access.. :-(

  29. Because we all know cows often use retna scans. by Libertarian_Geek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yep, that's right, not just coyotes and sheepdogs.
    Seriously, I know with timecards, there's the problem of getting someone else to clock you in. Not many better ways to prevent this than biometrics. Michael needs to manage people sometime, maybe he'll figure this out. Let me explain:
    You see, the old trick is come in early and clock you and your friend in. Leave early, then your friend clocks both of you out. The company looses productivity, increases prices, passes the cost on to the customer. Everytime someone cheats a company, the company doesn't pay the cost, the customer does. Biometric scans would prevent this as well as keeping recently fired employees out.

    --

    www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights

    www.fairtax.org
  30. It probably seems like a good idea by AndIWonderIfIWonder · · Score: 2, Funny
    Until one employee has a nasty accident with the deep fat fryer and can't clock in or out anymore.

    And they realise they have to draw up new regulations that prevents anyone with extensive acid burns to their hands being employed, errr, maybe.

  31. Don't be so quick.. by Raven42rac · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Don't be so quick to jump the gun on this one. Expecting people to be honest is somehow less than human? What about the honest guys who see everyone else ripping off the system, while he has a clear conscience? This will only validate those of us in society who play by the rules, and hopefully stop those who do break the rules. The only problem I would have with such a system would be if it linked up to government databases, or something like that. I would not be surprised given "security" companies' stances lately of profits over privacy. This practice would also, inadvertantly, be able to defeat fraud by management, like cutting people's hours. Most of the time, technology should not be needed, because all you need to do is have communication in place between all members of management. Example "why is Joe-Bob still clocked in?" "he shouldn't be, he left at noon".

    --
    I hate sigs.
  32. 6bucks + this = bad service by TechBCEternity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    minimum wage in BC is currently $6CDN or 2.6 pounds for the "training wage" for the first 500h(?). You get people on the bus handing out flyers for the site 6buckssucks.com. One thing that factories have learned is that people have a higher moral when they don't have to use punch cards. Now this probably won't give much better results than punch cards but I'd think that the moral result would be even worse.

    now you could argue that hey if they're working at McD's they're probably tranisitory and often with no experience. Sure it'll help with bad employees but it'll also get rid of the good employees a lot faster.

    I sounds like they're getting the shaft twice for working at McD's. The difference is that at the fish processing plant they meantion the wage is upto $21ph CDN or 9.1 pounds. He's worried about the bottom line. McD's looses more in left over food than they would in having employees coming 15min late.

    either way it sounds like the use of biometrics in vancouver bars to Tracking Patrons.... Go Canada and for anyone having to go through this process, rub jelly on your hands and you'll get a lot of faults in hand reads. The more the faults occur, the more managers will get pissed off that 30min a day or longer is spent getting the machine to work.

  33. The issue by FreeLinux · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The issue with swipe cards, that palm scanners eliminates, is that people often find ways to cheat the system. Certain individuals will get their friends to swipe or clock them in before their arrival at work. This was a very common problem with time clocks where someone would be late for work and they would call and have a coworker clock them in on-time even though the person didn't actually show up for work until an hour later. That's theft. This system prevents that possibillity as they cannot easily fake the palm scan. This saves the company a lot of money that it would otherwise be defrauded of.

    I am aware of a very large produce packing company in south Florida that installed a similar system several years ago for tracking employee hours for the mostly migrant pickers and packagers. Prior to this system it was not uncommon for a quarter of the staff to not show up for work at all yet, still collect a paycheck for a full week's work. The companies facilities are very low tech overall, due to the nature of their business so, it was very surprising to see such a high tech time clock there.

    In this particular case they used a number of hand scanners that measured the geometry of the persons hand for biometric identification. The company also found that the process of clocking in and out was much faster with this system as it illiminated the search for the time card on the wall and the examination of the timecard after it was punched. With the hand scanner the worker simply placed their hand on the scanner and when the light turned green it meant that they had successfully been identified and they moved on. Instead of taking one or more minutes for an individual to clock in, it now takes less than 15 seconds. This adds up when you start talking about crews in the hundreds.

  34. Do you people even know how most of this works?! by jfulcher · · Score: 3, Informative

    I am in the time and attendance field. My company sells and I setup biometric clocks along with regular clocks. The hand recognition clock we use is made by a company called recognition systems. You people are too damned paranoid. This system, nor the thumb one we use does NOT take your handprint, or thumbprint. You can really tell if you actually look at the handpunch device. The bottom that you are placing your palm on is an optical reflecting surface (just like the old optical mice). It has these little pegs on the inside and it measures the thickness of your fingers and the length. The thumb system that measures the thickness of the ridges and amount of ridges in your thumb and just record that. It does NOT store your fingerprints, nor does the prior store a handprint. You guys need to RESEARCH what you are complaining about before you complain about it. And this was a poor job of research by the journalist that wrote this article. But they have an excuse, they are uninformed liberals, and definitley not in the technical field to even understand how technical things work. Most of you guys are in the technical field.

  35. McJobs != Enlighted underpaid masses.... by WareW01f · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I had an job at a popular burger chain in high school, and while yes, there where a lot of people there that were 'just passing through' as in getting an education and exploiting flexible hours, there were also a fair share of individuals who had 'reached their full potential' shall we say. It's the nature of the fact that you're making minimum wage. At the time, we were required to punch in/out by keying our SSN into the registers. (Which might make people cringe, but your employer needs anyway to pay you). This is really no different and arguably more secure. (How many ways can I currently use you palm scan to steal your identity?)

    On the animal note... I can draw more references to the average aptitude needed to operate a fry machine than I can to the way people are treated. That and if your treated unfairly at one burger joint, move your damn cheese. Half the places out there required simply that you speak English (an even this might be waved) and that you are breathing/have a pulse.

    When they start taking blood samples ala Gattica or feeding worker rendered coworkers, then complain.

  36. yeah, I'm an employer. by nblender · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...for a company not doing very well. I am the lowest paid employee at my company. ie: all of my employees get paid more than I do. The company has no profits. Sometimes I don't even get a paycheck. Sometimes part of payroll gets put on my personal VISA. Welcome to owning your own business. Imagine how you'd feel in this position, to discover that some of your employees were taking advantage of the situation, by not showing up and getting someone else to clock in? I have an employee who habitually shows up an hour late, takes 2 hour lunches, and leaves when the clock strikes 5:00. Yet complains when his cow-orker, who does the same work, gets paid more. Yeah, I love most of my employees. They do terrific work and I pay them as much as I can afford. But I'd implement whatever I could to keep them in line if they were taking advantage of me.

  37. Re:Do you people even know how most of this works? by Evil+Schmoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think the basic point is, if it can identify -- and thus record -- me as an individual, it can be modified to store that information. I, for one, do not ascribe massive malicious intent to the large majority of employers (I used to run my own business, with fantastic employees whom I wish I could have paid more). However, there's no end to the innovative ways in which raw data can, and will, be mined.

    Suppose, for instance, that McDonald's Corp. notices that it begins having an unusually high palm reader error rate with a group of franchises near a major urban area ... Houston, for arbitrary purposes. Naturally, Administration will, and should, investigate. Do they have a batch of bad readers? They need to find out.

    Now suppose that nothing is found to be wrong with the readers. The only noticeable anomaly is that for certain employees, their palm map seems to be shrinking slightly. Turns out that these employees are losing weight.

    Now suppose that news reports begin to surface of an upswing of HIV infections in the Houston area.

    So now McDonald's has a serious dilemma. They have an identifiable subgroup of employees who prepare food, who use sharp kitchen implements, who may be infected with HIV. Corporate has no reason to suspect this other than their clock-in reports, but they have to act on it. This is begging for a lawsuit (either for violating the 4th Amendment rights of their employees, or by recklessly endangering the lives of their customers, or for decreasing shareholder value by sitting on the information and doing nothing).

    It's not black and white, by any means.

  38. Reducing Us To Numbers! by MH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've read probably about half the >= +2 comments, and I saw a lot of them bitching about "reducing the employee to a string of numbers". I'm not sure what company these folks work for (or if they even work), but guess what? You already are a string of numbers to most places.

    Take your job for example. What's the easiest way to keep one employee straight from another one? Assign some type of unique identification to each one. The easiest uniqie ID thus far has been a number...you don't run out of them!

    Now, you have to keep in mind that this number is really only used on the backend systems...the payroll system, the employee benefits system, the HR system. You don't see employee #57823 greet you with "Hi, 23884!" do you? If you, please stop reading now, and find a new job. Your co-workers are freaks.

    And metrics? Yeah, they're important. It's important for a company (or at least most companies) to make money, correct? So you need to know where you are spending your money to figure out how much you're gonna have left. One component of this is, you guessed it, finding out how much you're paying your employees! Now these hourly folks, you don't want them clocking each other in when they're not actually on the job, or otherwise finding a way to cheat the system (disclaimer: all systems can be cheated in some way)? In other words, getting paid for time they didn't work? Of course not. Would you pay the plumber for time he wasn't actually working on your clogged toilet? Pay the auto mechanic for time he wasn't working on somebody else's car? Pay the web monkey for time he wasn't marking up a webpage? No. You're not going to waste money.

    So you're going to have your bosses, or at least the accountants in your company, run numbers to find out where the money's going. And this kind of thing isn't new, it's not some metrics trend, it's been going on for quite awhile now.

    What about some other places? Do you think that store cares to know your name? The big one you buy your clothes at? Of course not, what possible use does that serve them? The mom and pop shops might, but they can afford to, that's their allure. But the larger shops aren't in the business of knowing the names of all their customers, they're in the business of providing you with a large selection of products to purchase. The larger entities in society don't care to know your name. There's no reason to know your name.

    Yes, it is true, you are a number to them. Yes, they can probably track you and find out that "Customer #349374 likes to purchase grapes, red t-shirts, and fishing magazines, so we need to market product X to them". They can probably match this stuff to your home address and begin mailing you circulars.

    But that's more to do with privacy which isn't going to be touched on here :) (And for anybody that cares, I'm all for privacy)

    --
    --mh
  39. Not a true Palm Scanning Device. by WinDOOR · · Score: 2, Informative

    The device they are using doesn't scan the palm, it takes some geometric measurements and stores it in a local memory bank. The company that makes it is Locknetics or Recognition Systems which is owned by Ingersoll Rand. Here's a PDF on the device. Handkey Reader The user actually has to enter a pin number first so it locate the proper memory bank to find the geometric template. Or this can be done with a card reader also.

  40. mmm hepatitis by Buskaatt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Everybody who works in a fish processing plant or fast food joint will essentially get a chance to shake hands. I hope they washed after using the john.

  41. Undervalued?!! by gosand · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It seems that some of the most underpaid and undervalued workers are starting to be treated no better than the animals they are frying up.

    I thought this story was about fast-food workers, not teachers. Since when are these people underpaid and undervalued? They may not make very much money, and they may have to work a lot of hours and do mundane tasks, but what VALUE do they really offer to society? Not that they don't deserve respect for the job they perform, but they would not be anywhere in the top 100 undervalued workers. Not every job has the same value in our society. Our society rewards some pretty ridiculous jobs in our society, and rewards some only a fraction of their true value, but fast food workers are not one of those.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  42. Re:Your missing the point by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Very weak example. As bank security camera could have the same effect, and thus it doesn't matter whether the government has cameras in your example or not. Besides, such flimsy circumstancial evidence would likely not even be enough evidence to convince a grand jury to let the case go to trial. Maximum time in jail before trial in most states is, IIRC, 30 days, which means it would suck, but then you could file a false arrest action against the city, a libel suit against the bank, etc. and retire. That's why this is both unlikely and not a good example.

    A better example is the issue of doing something that is morally (but not legally) wrong. You're having an affair with someone across town. The cameras see you and identify you. You have now been placed at the scene. Your wife suspects you and files for a divorce. The records then prove that you were unfaithful and the judge gives her a much bigger settlement.

    Another example: you go to a church that prohibits the consumption of alcohol, or better, work for an employer that does. You go to a club to see a band that's playing. Sure, that isn't evidence that you were drinking, but if someone doesn't like you and decides to lie and say that you did... well, they now have a means of obtaining proof that you were there that they otherwise likely would not have had.

    Outside a court of law, circumstantial evidence can be very hurtful. If you lost your job over it, sure, there would be lawsuits. Your employer could, however, try to make it sufficiently uncomfortable that you would leave on your own.

    And the list goes on.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  43. WHAT? by strider_starslayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really have to ask 'what?' on this one, as a person who has worked at timeclocked locations and had to carry around a stupid card all the time to check in/out (a card I often misplaced, since it had to be easily removable to swipe), when I read this article I thought to myself 'cool that's a great idea, and nice thing for the employees'. Yet there are dozens of posts about possible security concerns?

    If your emplyee wants your fingerprint for some illicit purpose, they can get you to handle a glass object and lift it later. Heck, they could probablly just plain ASK for your fingerprint 'in connection with a series of food store thefts' and you'd hand it over without a second thought (since you diden't steal any food), or perhaps after a second thought, but that thought being 'it's not worth loosing my job over it'.

    So if it's that easy to get your fingerprint, what has the instalation of a biometric reader really done? It's made life easier on the emplyees, who no longer have to carry around a stupid card- BUT it's also made life harder on the employees who cheat the system by getting there buddy to clock them in early.

    Besides if your so terminally afaraid of your fingerprints being stolen, why don't YOU (the theoritical emplyee of mcdonnalds who dosen't like his hand being scanned) insist on something else being scanned, like your lucky hat, or somesuch. Something tells me they woulden't care, but they might check to make sure you don't get your buddy to check you in a LOT (which they have the right to do). Also I'm sure they woulden't care if you wore a glove during the scan (just make sure you allwase have that glove, and don't go crying to mannagment the day you forget it).

    --
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