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Shrinking the PC is a Zen Thing
TheRaindog writes "Tech Report has one of the first reviews of Shuttle's new "Zen" small form factor system, which is almost 20% smaller than current XPCs. The Zen uses a passively-cooled external power supply and variable speed cooling fan to keep the system's noise levels and footprint to a minimum. With support for the latest Pentium 4 processors and ATI's Radeon 9100 IGP chipset, performance isn't too shabby, either."
Do these systems automatically trottle down the CPU as well to decrease system heat?
or you just happy to see me
Apple fans may fall in love with the cube on sight.
:)
Although I am not a fan of using apple systems, apple has really changed the way computer manufacturers design computer systems.
This cube looks like something a cheap apple cousin might design.
AC
Shuttle once again raises the bar. They are one of the few companies out there doing something intresting with bland PC architecture. I still love my old SS50, now may be the time to pick up my next Shuttle.
Keep working on those form factors, boys!
--Leo
This thing looks almost identical to the Soldam Polo series, the first of which came out around two years ago.
So what's new about this?
Looking at those pictures of the back the connector seems to be similar to an ATX mb socket. Is that an American thing, rather than the UK kettle lead or is it something propiatory?
Rus
CPanel + Root from $35/mo - 10% off with discount code SLASHDOT
I really welcome new small form factor computers like this one from Shuttle.
As much as I like computers, I dislike
- space they take up
- rats nest of cables in the back (like Brazil)
- fan noise
A laptop solves these problems, but at the sacrifice of a lousier keyboard and mouse interface.The $300 price definitely helps market a machine, too, where used computers are cheap.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Really what's the advantage here? You're giving up functionality and extra cash to pay for one of these things, and only gaining the clutter of an external PSU, while running parts hotter and less reliably than in a correctly designed case, and there are hundreds of them out there.
In essence it's making a PC worse, and paying more for the privilege, all for only one difference exteriorally which is the height of the box, as shuttles are every bit as wide as a normal PC and almost as long front to back. When all it's going to do is get books and other desk things stacked on top of it then there's not really any advantage?
Well, they got the dimensions down to around the Apple Cube's size, but it is still lacking in aesthetics. For instance, one could never put this thing on your desk with its back facing to someone else if you place any value on style. I mean check this out. The Apple cube had a completely smooth appearance with connections to the display coming discretely out of the underside of the case. Oh, and it is silent. Cooling a P4 chip is going to require some fans on this baby, but I guess its all about tradeoffs. For a PC case though, this is not that bad for small form factors.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Q: How many Zen buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Tree falling in the forest
Free XBox, PS2
Shuttle's new "Zen" small form factor system, which is almost 20% smaller than current XPCs
I beat them all as far as size is concerned : my PC has no case, and therefore is -100% of the size of a standard beige box PC, since it has the inside out. How about a little of that?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I have been looking at one of these for a while. I make up dream configurations using the Shuttle Barebones system and then price out the components from Overclockers or TekHeads.
They seem to solve a lot of problems that conventional systems are plagued with. Cooling a large box, noise generated by the cooling systems, space used by the server sitting under your desk. I was originally looking at rack mount systems but these Small Form Factor PC's have the added advantage of portability. Perfect for LAN Parties.
In addition they retain standard PC components, so you are not thrust into the expensive world of laptop computing. I did that for a while and got tired of paying double for everything.
Howver, currently I have the server under the desk. The major problem is the storage space of these boxes but if I can find an external storage system that suits, I am definitely going small form factor.
CMDRTACO CHECK YOUR EMAIL!
Except that every desktop Apple currently sold has AGP, Serial ATA, and RAID capabilities.
I could really do with a small PC with a decent graphics card. Considering this has perfectly adequate network, sound and usb, I don't really have a need for a PCI slot for a while.
I guess it's the next size up for me.
1. ...a Beowulf cluster of these! ...shall call him mini-me! ...it's not the size, it's how you use it! ...in Soviet Russia, PC shrinks YOU! ...WORRIED ABOUT SIZE?!?! NEW P*I*L*L*S SHRINK YOUR PC!!!!
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Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
Why not kill two birds with one stone (or keep two beatsies alive with one hack). Perhaps you have an ultracompact PC that needs cooling and a nice expansive fish tank that needs warming. So you build a sealed PC module that sits in the tank and makes both the fish and the CPU happy. A sealed cable runs from the tank to a breakout box. A passive convective heatsink in water could easily disappate the heat much more effectively than can air.
The rule for tank heaters is 4 W/gal, so a 200 W PC is perfect for warming a 50 gallon tank. A temperature sensor in the water would control the clock-speed -- underclocking if the fish got too hot. An occasional cleaning would keep algae from ruining the heat transfer coefficient.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
I think SFF's are great for the work environment as well as home users who dont upgrade etc. As for PC enthusiasts, the space is too limited to do upgrades easily. Also add in the fact most have integrated graphics means updating your machine into a gaming rig probably wont happen.
Why are there no 1/4 height 5.25" bay things on the market? Shouldn't be any problems making CD/DVD drives half the height of what they are today. Just look at portable CD players.
Rear-mounted digital S/PDIF input and output ports (Tos-Link)
On the 2 shuttles I have (SS51G, SN41G2)the digital output ports have been front-mounted. Having it in the back is nice because you're not running the cord behind the computer.
One of the downsides of this seems to be that there's no AGP port. This is where the size savings comes in for ths aprticukar model. Both of my shuttles have on-baord graphics, but also have an AGP slot that I could get better performance from.
*grr* No removable drive cage either. Both of my shuttles have a removable drive cage. It made setting the machines up so much easier.
The external power supply for this unit will also make setup easier.
All told, I do my shuttles. They're nice systems, and so much quieter than the systems they replaced. Even nicer was full support forom linux. I dropped my old drives into the new system, and they were good to go.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
For mainstream markets and applications that don't require discrete AGP graphics, Shuttle has whipped up a smaller, quieter "Zen" XPC ST62K system. By stripping the cube of its AGP slot and using a passively-cooled external power supply...
And this for 20% off the length (not height, not width) of the case. Whoop-ti-doo -- I haven't had an external power supply on my computer since I threw away my C-64. I'm sorry, but this hardly qualifies as innovation...
Cheers,
-j.
Did they used one of these cubes as the web server?
Visit me on the web at Permanent4.com.
I've got a Shuttle XPC as a monitor-less HTPC/home server. The Shuttle fulfils a role that neither a standard desktop or laptop could - a small, quiet bookshelf machine with 600gb of storage, TV card, a reasonably speedy processor and a DVD+-R drive - using standard desktop components, and so all at a reasonable price.
I hate to come off sounding like a troll, but what does this thing have to do with Zen?
If I started a line of "Jesus" computers, people would throw a hissy fit, but we slap other people's religions on everything from herbal tea to mp3 players. Granted, a good Buddhist shouldn't care about this, but I think it would be classy if we showed a tad more respect for other cultures than by naming our mediocre product after their religion.
Again, I apologize for the way this sounds... just wanted to get that off my chest! Thanks fellas!
The power supply generates heat, but it isn't itself very sensitive to that heat.
If you move the power supply outside of your computer case you will need less cooling for your CPU and grafx card. Or with the same amount of cooling you'll have some headroom to overclock.
And the power supply itself does not need to be cooled.
The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
the government has this computer that runs on water. On water, man!!!
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
... who is that horrendous chick on the concluding page of the review?
Bleeeuuuuuurrgh, makes me want to wash my mouth out with cpu coolant paste.
Shuttle sell barebones systems to enthusiasts which you have to open up to add your own CPU, RAM, hard drive, floppy drive, and optical drive, never mind the OS. Compared to an iMac or G4 cube, they have all the base ports built in and yet are highly expandable with standard desktop components - 1 PCI, 1 AGP, 2x3.5" bays, 1x5.25" bay in their standard XPCs, although I believe this Zen lacks the AGP slot.
I've built and used three Shuttle XPCs, but I have not yet worked with the Zen model. At this point I must say that I'm disillusioned with the XPCs in general, and I can only hope that the Zen corrects the problems of previous models.
:( The drive cage itself is cheaply made and susceptible to vibrational noise; with a 7200rpm+ drive and a fast optical drive, this easily becomes a problem.
Due to the cramped interior design, physically accessing most internal components requires removing a number of other parts first. The drive cage in the SK41G actually has a bumper on the side because there's not enough space between the PCI slot and drive cage! The bumper bends my sound card to one side to keep it from making contact with the cage.
Externalizing the PSU is a laudable move. I've had considerable problems with XPCs overheating, and two of the XPCs I've worked with had bad PSU fans: one made a crackling noise, and the other was totally dead (out of the box). Why not just modularize the thing even further and externalize the drive cage as well?
The overheating problem is especially disappointing considering that, in my experience, the variable-rate SmartFans don't react quickly/intelligently enough to prevent heat-related system hangs. Using a high-performance video card in an XPC exacerbates this problem, which has forced me to run the fans on the highest setting at all times (yes, the CPU is burned-in, and I'm using a non-electrically-conductive thermal grease).
After three systems and two RMAs, I finally decided that Shuttle XPCs aren't for me.
I really welcome new small form factor computers like this one from Shuttle.
:-)
As much as I like computers, I dislike
1. space they take up
2. rats nest of cables in the back (like Brazil)
3. fan noise
A laptop solves these problems, but at the sacrifice of a lousier keyboard and mouse interface.
The $300 price definitely helps market a machine, too, where used computers are cheap.
This is somewhat interesting, since this weekend I went the *opposite* route. I took an old Compaq Proliant server that they were throwing away at work, gutted it, and transplated my PC guts into it. I was looking to solve your #2 and #3, #1 isn't that big of a deal for me.
First off, what I took out - a working dual P133 motherboard. 4 4.3 GB SCSI drives, backplane, controller, etc. Dual 530W PS (DAMN big). All of it was working too. I put in the guts of my Linux machine, which is a Duron 1.13 (w/Zalman copper flower CPU cooler), CDRW, floppy, and 2 IDE HDDs. (which fit nicely on the removable SCSI rack plates), and a 400W Enermax whisper PS. I had to do some minor fabrication and modification, but it all fit. And working inside that case was really nice. No squinting and swearing, trying to get everything to fit inside. It was like building a PC inside a bathroom stall (proper analogy for a Compaq, with their damn special slider rails for drive bays and torx screws everywhere). But it is all pretty cool now. It is a massive machine, about 3 ft tall. The case is steel, so it is solid and quiet. There is plenty of airflow, and it runs cooler than before. And if the feds ever come and confiscate it, they'll probably throw out their back trying to lift it.
So while small form factor is cool, I think it is verging on the "disposible PC". Where is the "upgradeability" that I have been promised for years and years? I bought tons of PC hardware that was built to be "upgradeable", but every time I come to that point where I think about upgrading, I end up either getting stuff off of eBay, or buying a whole new system. From AT to ATX, from socket processor, to slot, back to socket. SIMM, DIMM, SDRAM, DDR, etc. Unless you upgrade every 2 years, you are probably going to be SOL, at least buying anything new. I highly doubt that you'll be able to upgrade any of these micro systems.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
You lick not chew!
Does anyone have a drive that fits into 3.5" slots? Or is this completely worthless like I think it is?
...and while I'm looking at building a new box in the next few months, one option I've ruled out are these small form factor PCs.
I built my SFF system about a year and a half ago. It's a Shuttle SS51G; the first XPC they offered with an AGP slot. At the time, it seemed like a great idea: it was small, quiet, attractive, and wasn't hideously expensive, and it would allow me to have plenty of power to run Dark Age of Camelot (which was the only game I played at the time). This was especially true in light of the fact that the whole reason I was building a new PC was because my incredibly large, hot, and noisy beige box AMD system had decided to destroy itself after AMD's 'recommended' fansink died only 6 months after being installed.
The problems I've had with heat in my Shuttle, however, have been even more irritating. Those, coupled with some of the other minor annoyances from the XPC line (which I'd assume are really problems of all SFF systems) have turned me away from them.
First and foremost, I've had major heating issues. The review sites, like Ars and [H] were right when they said that Shuttle's ICE cooling system (a heatpipe, really) was quiet and kept the processor running reasonably cool. The problem is that I automatically assumed that meant that the case itself had adequate cooling, and quite honestly, it doesn't.
My first heat-related issue was with my video card; a Radeon 8500. The AGP slot in Shuttle's cases is literally right next to the case wall. I honestly can't imagine there's more than a 1/4 of an inch between the case and the fan on my Radeon 8500, which means the thing can barely breathe. I've had to underclock it to maintain stability.
Second, I had issues with the RAM causing heat build-up, too. The system defaults to a speed of DDR200, even though the mainboard supposedly supports up to DDR333. I have a pair 512 MB DDR266 sticks from Crucial; both identical. When I changed the multiplier to force them to run at DDR266, I noticed I would get more crashes and lockups, and I wasn't even running an aggressive timing configuration. Ultimately, I had to back my RAM down to DDR200.
The worst part about the heat-related issues is that there's really nothing to do about it. There's no room for expansion in the case; it's not like you can just stick another fan in there. There's barely any room for the components that're already in the case.
Other minor annoyances I've come across are the excessively spartan BIOS, and complete inability to do any work inside the case without disassembling the whole damned thing.
Don't get me wrong, Shuttle doesn't make a bad product. My XPC has great construction quality, and was rather reasonably priced. But despite their claims that these systems offer gaming-quality performance, they really don't. And they're barely any more upgradeable than a laptop.
I'd recommend one to anyone who wants a good web browser or maybe to put together a media box or some sort of small server, but for any performance-intensive, stay away.
For the benefit of those who have not read the F. article, don't miss the "Zen babe" on the Conclusions page. I'll leave the review of that part up to you folks. :)
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
Apple sells systems which no one has to open up, but which also preclude any meaningful competition. If I want a preconfigured shuttle system I can order one of my choosing from any of a thousand dealers, and lots of competition means I get a good value. It also means there are lots of independant dealers who have jobs trying to compete for my dollars instead of no jobs and collecting my money through the government.
With the standard Shuttle boxes, you can leave out the floppy drive and stick in another hard drive. That's what my plan is with my SK41G I'm using as a server. It has a CD and hard drive, no floppy. When I need more drive space I have room to stick in another one. I use the network to transfer files. If, for some reason, that wasn't possible, I can use my USB drive (Laks watch).
-- Will program for bandwidth
If you put plenty of RAM in the system, you can run a linux CD distribution like KNOPPIX and eventually all your frequently used stuff will be in RAM cache.
CD-ROMs tend to be really quiet and reliable, so this may be a potential solution.
-Z
Er, this eMac I'm sitting in front of (brand new, bought about a month and a half ago) has no AGP (slot, although I'm sure the video card uses AGP technology), serial ATA, or RAID (except if you buy it an XServe RAID, which would be really really really cool).
You might be thinking of the G5, which is a bad ass machine and has all those features, but that's not Apple's only desktop computer.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!