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Another Xandros 2.0 Deluxe Review
JimLynch writes in about his review: "If we had to define Xandros 2.0 with one word, we'd pick 'usable.' This time around, the folks at Xandros have refined their product significantly and come up with something that makes Linux quite comfortable and easy to use, even if you're a total newbie to the OS. Obviously the Gentoo crowd won't be interested in this distro, but Windows users who haven't used Linux before or have had bad experiences with other distros will particularly enjoy this release. The time to begin the desktop migration to Linux might very well have arrived with Xandros 2.0." An earlier review was also favorable.
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OK, I've been thinking about making "the big leap" to a Linux distro for a while, and this Windows application compatibility looks really intriguing. Can someone give me an idea of how well it works, and any configuration / compatibility snafus it might have?
The only things, at this point, that would really prevent me from wanting to use Linux as my primary OS would be the ability to run Windows apps well (let's face it, I have a lot of apps on my system that work well already, and I don't want to have to lose access to them or have to reboot into Windows to use them), and the ability to play games / DirectX-based programs (I've heard WineX has this ability, any comments on how good it is / how easy it is to use / configure?).
I've recently been experimenting with KDE under Cygwin, which works surprisingly well except for a few glitches like not displaying JPEGs correctly (I've heard they fixed this in the latest version). Any comparisons?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Geez, I must be doing something wrong becouse I am using Linux as a desktop at this moment. But, alright, I'll let time prove you wrong.
I will have to discontinue USING it on the desktop, then. I'm not a programmer, I don't even have a CS degree, and I use it quite a bit. I use it more than ever now that Openoffice is so useable. Lets not forget that MS Office is FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS, okay?
did you see the screenshots?
That's a lawsuit just waiting to happen... All the sub-apps like the Task Manager and all the Properties windows are a perfect copy! Very impressive.
Usable isn't XP, it's OSX.
I think the linux community should stop trying to copy something that is garbage produced by the evil empire. Copy something powerful and usable, like OSX. Or better yet, get some original ideas.
ender-iii
I just don't get why some people need do bash linux in this rather subjective style, saying it never will be ready for the desktop.
Honestly, do you feel that you lose when it actually becomes usable?
Or maybe you're just miserable because you've missed out on it for so long, and won't admit that you've been wrong all along.
For me it's been ready on the desktop for the last 5 years. However, only recently have I begun advocating it to my computer-illiterate friends, and you know what? They like it. They can use it.
Go back to your cave, troll.
The review doesn't mention one of the most important criteria: what are the copying conditions for Xandros?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I agree with you on that. Linux needs a lot of work on hardware support and graphic interface frontends before it can be used comparably to Windows or Mac OS as a desktop. Right now, the initial install and setup are easy enough in a distro like RH9.. as long as all hardware supported and can be autoconfigured. If not, it almost certainly means having to configure things through a command line. It's gotten a lot better, but it still has a long way to go, especially if the user wants to do anything more than basic Web/mail/word processing. I mean, RH9 doesn't even include MP3 codecs for XMMS. Network autoconfiguration has gotten a lot better (DHCP works a lot better in RH9 than it did for me in 7.3) but anything beyond Ethernet-to-broadband-router (even dial-up) still takes a lot of work with configuration files and such IMHO. And out of the box, even Red Hat 9 isn't able to set up Samba by itself, so there goes filesharing to Windows machines on the network. Basically my point is that it's gotten a lot better, but there is still a REALLY long way to go before it can be considered for widespread desktop use.
Sorry, my karma just ran over your dogma.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
The following line blows my criteria for a Mom-ready Linux distro:
Price:
Xandros Standard $39.95, Xandros Deluxe $89
Yes, I'm cheap. But I got Knoppix from these guys for like three bucks, and that's just 'cause I was too lazy to configure the CD burner to do it myself.
When I screw something up on the Linux box, my wife shakes her head and says "You get what you pay for." On the other hand, she's not too excited about shelling out $100+ for Windows, and I'm not too excited about shelling out $40+ for Linux. Besides, if I weren't screwing up my installation all the time, how would I learn?
Of course, I could always do what one of my relatives did. He downloaded a pirated copy of WinXP Professional, and doesn't feel the least bit guilty. He was amused when he tried to apply a patch and got a message like "Dude! It's pirated! Go look for another download!". As a programmer (who enjoys getting *paid* to code), I just smile, while trying not to breathe through my nose... at least he doesn't ask me for tech support.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
The Launch button (similar to Windows' Start button) is a good place to begin.
That is where I stopped reading.
If you want to drag people away from the abomination that is windows, you have to offer something better instead of just copying the crap blindly.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Because out of all the people who read that comment, you were the only one that was able to extract MARKETSHARE out of:
Linux is not ready for the desktop. They are not even close.
Not now. Not ever.
Don't mod me down. Let time prove me wrong.
Even to me, while re-reading it quite a few times, it just seems like some moron who probably has never tried linux saying that it will never be ready for the desktop.. not now, not ever...
Your ability to read between the lines is mind numbing...
---
USER, n.: The word computer professionals use when they mean "idiot."
-- Dave Barry, "Claw Your Way to the Top"
Linux is not ready for the desktop. They are not even close. Not now. Not ever.
Thanks for your comments. You could be even more helpful if you'd tell us what is wrong with the linux desktop (it must be pretty big if you think it'll never be fixed).
The complaint I hear from most people boils down to "it isn't windows". This is a fair point; we all enjoy what we're used to. This is why I'm pleased to see Lindows, lowering one entry barrier people have to using linux. Secondly I'm glad to see some OEMS selling Open Source apps with windows installations (one example I know of personally is some cheaper computers being shipped with OpenOffice).
Anyway, back on point... if Xandros is really "simple, easy and fast" as the review says, then Xandros has the upper hand over most other linux distributions. People will only become used to Linux when it is so transparent that they aren't even aware that there is a different OS, and these qualities in Xandros really help achieve that.
I don't know about how Xandros 2.0 works out in this, as I haven't used it, but I feel we're still a few months away from really good compatibility with windows apps. Most of them work now, but some upcoming changes in shell32.dll implementations will make a huge difference for a lot of apps.
Hmmm is this really any improvement? The biggest complaint many people have with Microsoft and Windows, is that its proprietary nature stiffles any innovation. I'd much rather see someone make a desktop that expands beyond XP then tries its hardest to emulate it. Id be more excited about a DEXP, Doesn't Emulate XP then an XPDE.
What's another word for Thesaurus?
-Steve Wright
Linux on the desktop will happen when its ready to happen. All this pushing does nothing to aide linux.
All that will happen is less experienced users will hear all the fuss and see phrases like "A free windows alternative" and attempt to give it a go.
Assuming they find their way through the installer, they will find that their modems, web cams etc dont work and various other niggly issues that still cause alot of problems.
The brave end-user that tried it out will head back to windows, never to enter linux territory again and whats more, will likely tell all his friends not to bother. The hype will be countered with anti-hype and things stay as they are.
When linux is viable on the desktop (for Joe Public) it will happen, trying to push it before this point will just be detrimental.
I cant understand the push anyway. Does the linux community need to validate its existance by taking on the evil empire?
Have you even tried Xandros 2? I have, on my laptop. All the stuff you're going on about worked fine. It took me all of 2 minutes to configure my Winmodem dialup account. First time ever a distro configured a winmodem for me. Flat out, everything worked well. Crossover Office configured Forte Agent in no time. Newsbin Pro even worked. (It never did for me before) I configured a Windows printer in less time that it takes me in SuSE 9. This product is GOOD! Samba worked out of the box. I could share files both ways on a windows network.
AFAIK Xandros completely ignores Gnome applications... The installation utilities don't allow for easy installation of the most basic gnome applications either, gnome-terminal, gaim, etc.
Definitely something to consider if you are thinking about trying it.
I thought linux is free? How are they charging for this?
You really, REALLY don't know what you are talking about. I don't mean that as a flame, I just don't think you have been trying state of the art Linux distros.
If you *would* try something new, like Xandros, or, (for free and better IMO) MEPIS Linux, then you may just find that you are wrong. I have my Mom, a sister and her family, and a brother-in-law who is so "clooless" about computers it isn't funny, and they all are using MEPIS. I set it up for them (it doesn't take any command line editing at all), then show them which Icons to click to do web, email, etc, and then I forget about it. Haven't had a problem from one of them yet. Sis = 1 year use, bro-in-law = 5 months, Mom = X-mas. Seriously, try something besides RH, Drake, and what you think you know are "the" Linux distro's. There is a lot of new work in this area that you obviously have not been exposed to.
You know, Open Office also runs on Windows. You don't have to give up a perfectly good OS because you don't want to pay $400 (not $500 BTW) for MS Office. Some of us take advantage of open source without making a sacrifice to the religion that is Linux.
I've never really felt Windows was ready for the desktop (look at all the security vulnerabilities), so who cares if Linux isn't either.
I have virii on my Linux boxen!
Which runs MS Office.
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I've been interested in Xandros ever Corel Linux was bought up, and I must say, I'm very impressed with what they've done. This is definately a step in the right direction. However, destktop Linux still needs interface (that's right, not necesarily filesystem or API) standardisation. There has to be a common set of design rules for developers to stick to so every different open source app doesn't have a totatlly different way of using common functions. There is a reason the Macintosh is so easy for idiots to use - Apple has a set of guidlines for how applications look and behave, and these transcend all the programs (at least the effective ones). Even if you've never used a certain app before, you have at least a rudimentary idea of how to use it because it shares a common workflow with the rest of the system. X will be a lot better off when someone applys this to Linux.
What are they giving back to the community? Name one project that they support and fund.
Also, to you idiots who keep going on about Linux and the desktop. I have to use a total of 5 computers. 3 desktop, 1 latop and 1 server. Only on of them is windows. It is the one not ready for the desktop. I would rather use KDE or Gnome then windows any day. Face it windows just isnt ready for the desktop!
I've been using Xandros Desltop 2.0 for a few weeks, coming to it after several years with a number of other distributions.
It is, indeed, a slick piece of work. Installed as advertised. Detected and offered the correct drivers for all of my periperals, including my printer. Saved me the trouble of chasing down and installing some Mozilla plugins. Crossover works as advertised. The tweaks to KDE are well done and present a professional image.
The standard install does not deposit the usual retinue of servers and development tools on your drive (most are available on the 2nd CD or via download). That makes sense for the market Xandros is targetting. (Makes sense for me, too. On my home desktop box, I don't need 'em.)
If Xandros targeted the geek market, included the usual geek software, rewrote their manual, and changed their advertising to downplay the Windows thing, this distribution would be seen by geeks as the best desktop Linux released to date. Most geeks won't look at it that way, but they'll be wrong.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
FYI, Bioware has ported Neverwinter Nights to Linux (or was it the other way around?). All you need is a CD key, the game resources (from the CD, or you can actually download a 1.1 gig tar.gz file containing everything from the CDs), and a small client installation file. It runs great!
Neverwinter Nights for Linux
The prospect of handing over $$$ for a distro is foreign to me. Give me a good distro, give me Debian.
I have read the review, and all the other ones that are floating around on the net, and yes, beside Knoppix (www.knoppix.net) Xandros is stepping in the right direction to complete the bridge for Home Linux users. Not to say Xandros doesn't have flaws (Slow Loading, No 2.6 Kernel, And it didnt get all my hardware). Then again Windows Xp didn't get all my hardware either. Either case, they have pretty much made a seamless gap for people looking try linux, and have the ability of dual booting. One of the features I enjoyed was their File Browers. It has been re-written to make it appear as tho you are in Windows, and don't have the evil Linux (*nx) file system Structure. Flaws with it: * Any game you play with a game pad - Need to download, and install modules. * Sometime when accessing your CDRom, it will say it doesn't exist, and has an error about mounting /var/.../../.. ?
* Slow booting, and Shutdown
* I have to manually force it to use ACPI 4 Not
ACPI 3, 2,1 or APM 4,3,2,1 .. Why all the
choices?
* Xandros Networks has a button called "Update
All" don't seem to work, or at least the 4 time
I tried it.
* And last but not least, Not a aXandros Only
problem, some windows games will not work under
WineX.
Final Comment: -> Very stable, Using RiserFS works flawlessly, and you get one of everything.. (Browers, text editor, chat program)
That thing, about the virii in your boxesen... are you syndicated? Push me your news via thy blorgroller.
Regards,
Hank Kingsley
Has the crossover plugin. Well, the Deluxe Edition does.
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Has anyone used Kopete? It looks pretty sexy. It's built into Xandros so I wonder how useful it is. I use Gaim at home and I have a few quibbles with it.
Like sex? Read and write about it! Indecent Blogging
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH well written news! thank you!
Started with Xandros/1.0 a while back. Nice simple package, installs all by itself, but a little dusty around the edges. But hey, it brought a number of old PCs back to life as simple browser/email/Office boxes, no hassle.
Chucked Xandros/2.0 deluxe onto a box (from which I'm typing this). My main machine, now. The switch from a W2K notebook was remarkably easy. I did use CrossoverOffice to install MSIE because we need this to test some applications. But most everything else has gone the native Linux way.
Xandros' good points: Debian, the file manager, seamless integration with Windows networks, good selection of packages, clean and dry user interface (compared to the 'how much more can we add' horrors of Lindows 4.5). Everything a 'normal' user needs within easy reach, and very little poking under the hood to make it all work. The file manager is especially lovely, though I suspect a large part of that comes from Konqueror. Double-click on _anything_ and something useful happens. Archives magically uncompress, ISO images magically get burnt to CD, Windows executables run immediately (assuming CrossoverOffice is there), RPMs get launched in the Xandros installer. It "just works", and that's the greatest compliment I can give any software.
Xandros' weak point is the lack of some useful packages in the standard sources. To burn DVDs for instance I needed to install K3b and a number of auxilliary tools myself, some from source, some from RPMs and other packages. But then exploring and installing one's own packages from source is part of the fun of getting the system you want.
Linux is an operating system with depth (as are most Unix systems). Xandros wraps this up so nicely that you almost get that Windows experience. But when you open the wrapping, there is solid metal underneath, and it feels good.
I forgot how limiting Windows was, how many comprimises there are in the platform, and to tell the truth after a decade of using mainly Windows, I was a little scared to jump to a Linux distro. Xandros made this move easy, so easy that I did not once think 'Oh, forget it'.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Why does everyone knock on Gentoo claiming it's hard to use. I'm a linux newbie and have been for about 5 years. I tried Caldera, couldn't get the hang of it. Tried Red Hat didn't like it either. Tried Gentoo, I love it. It's the first distro that didn't leave me confused after the install. Sure Red Hat and Caldera installed easier, but Gentoo was better documented, and since I had to do many things manually I learned what would need done in the future if I needed to change something. For instance under Red Hat I didn't know what I needed to do to add another hard drive to my system, or to change network cards.
With Gentoo during the install I learned how to create filesystems, configure and compile the kernel, and lots of other stuff. It takes more work, but I wouldn't call it difficult. Grandma couldn't do it, but my dad or my 13 year old cousin probably could.
Non gratis rodentus anus
No daily builds since 08/20/2003. Maybe they've had some second thoughts?
Quack, quack.
Each and every point is correct. Oh, I see, he must have broken the "don't evar criticize Slashdot" rule. He's not thinking like the Group is thinking.
I understand.
You know, Open Office also runs on Linux. You don't have to give up a perfectly good OS because you want to run something as good as a $400 (not $500 BTW) MS Office. Some of us take advantage of open source without making a sacrifice to the religion that is Windows.
The article notes a couple of dozen applications that purportedly work fine through Crossover. But WordPerfect isn't on the list. I write for a living, and in my experience WordPerfect is a far better tool for a full-time writer than Word, Openoffice.org, or AbiWord. I'd be loathe to part with it, especially since most of what I've written in the past few years is in WP 10.0. I know I could get WP 8.0 in native Linux, but does anyone know whether v. 10.0 or 11.0 can be emulated, and if this emulation is fast and stable? This is really the main thing holding me back; that and the fact that I suppose I'd have to give up Skype.
it's whak like Howard Dean when he hasn't had a rabies shot for 2 weeks.
That's what I've been saying to Vegans for years: "Shut up and eat ... some HAM!"
I have to agree. I'm a novelist (law degree - no tech or science) and I use OpenOffice and Linux on a refurbished ThinkPad. Works great.
Cognitive dissonance: I paid all this money for proprietary software therefore it must be good.
Me: I paid nothing for this software and I never have any problems with it. At $10-15 per week saved amortized over a year, that's plenty of cash to spend on more fun things... like flowers every week for my WIFE! (and yes, I do that)
did you see the screenshots?
;-]
Heh - yeah. I got a kick out of the one labeled "KDE tray applications work". I pulled it up and found a picture of kscd displaying an error.
Way to proof-read your website guys!
"A revolution without dancing is... a revolution not worth having"
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/64 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, Netscape will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even BBEdit Lite is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Macs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Mac that has run faster than its Wintel counterpart, despite the Macs' faster chip architecture. My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram runs faster than this 300 mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Macintosh is a superior machine. Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.
I think that this is what PHLAK might be using with it's desktop=sneaky option.
I got nothing...
I tried XPDE on Gentoo - it was extremely buggy. Lots of apps wouldn't even start. It looked and felt right, but wasn't usable.
Implicit Evaluation with PHP
Perhaps MS might be keeping quiet about all this, delaying and hoping for the day that it gets included in numerous GNU/Linux distributions. Then MS can sue multiple GNU/Linux distributions in SCO-style (over some what they term as "IP" theft - not that I agree with those two terms).
Trust me, MS will be WELL aware of the existance of XPDE. Why are they not acting?
If you had said Linux is not ready for the average Joe Consumer purchasing their first computer at Best Buy, you might have a leg to stand on. But it most certainly *is* ready for the desktop. You can't make the claim that just because it doesn't run every single Windows application out there, that it isn't ready, because Mac OSX doesn't either, and no one with more than two brain cells would claim OSX isn't ready for the desktop.
I could be wrong though. I don't use Linux. I use FreeBSD. But considering that the GUI/desktop portion is exactly identical to Linux, I don't think I am. I use FreeBSD/XFree86/KDE on my desktop at work and at home, including a laptop. I still have a Windows partition, but that's ONLY for the use of ONE highly specialized program. Everything else is native FreeBSD. Web browsing, email, word processing, spreadsheets, digital cameras, photo processing, music, etc, etc. There's no common task you can do on your desktop that I can't do on mine, and just as easily.
What's holding Linux and BSD back is not the desktop. That battle has been won. What's missing is easy to perform system administration. But for many systems, that's not too far off. It was actually easier to install and configure FreeBSD on my laptop than it was to do the same with WinXP.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Let me start off by saying you really WON'T need your Windows apps after switching to Linux. That's old news. Now you can get Linux native apps that do that same things as their Windows counterparts and do it just as well. (Just as easy to install too) I run Linux on my laptop and XP on my desktop and there's nothing I can't do with my laptop and Linux native apps that I can do on my desktop. To get to that point took more work on my part, but far less then it would have a year ago. Plus... if you do find something that only works on Windows (say some MS Office feature) you can run most of the major Windows Apps painlessly on Linux with Codeweaver's Crossover Office and/or Plugin. I've not had a need to use it on my system BUT I have used it before and it's about as simple to use as you can get. The apps don't run as fast, and there are a few very minor bugs here and there for some apps, but it's still very usuable. Standard WINE is a MAJOR pain in the butt to use... unless someone written a very well detailed how-to already.
As far as games go... Linux is definitely not there yet. Particularly with DirectX games. WineX works pretty well for a lot older games (1-2 years old being considered "new") but still nowhere near well as Windows apps do. You will have to do some work to get them running too. Good thing is that most of the major games have Linux native versions. With the state of 3D and video card driver support, openGL, etc... they still don't run as well as on Windows systems but they are playable. So if you play a lot of games I'd say hold off with Linux OR dual boot because Linux isn't there (yet).
All and all Linux makes a very good desktop for something that's computer savvy. There's still a lot of work to go before it's as easy to use as Windows but at the rate things change in the Linux world I wouldn't be suprised it it was pretty close in the next 2-3 years. I think it will take commercial development to do it.. since consistency is not something the community does well.. but with IBM and others going to Linux on the Desktop that will happen.
Xandros looks "ok", but SuSE is a better deal:
SuSE is free if you do a network install.
Slightly offtopic: Does anyone know how to get the scroll wheel to work in Konqueror? The scroll wheel just acts like a third button, and I'd like my "click, drag and scroll" and "scroll" capabilities back.
And I just switched back to gaim. Don't get me wrong, Kopete is a great app, but it's got a lot of work that needs to be done, at least with the version I have (0.7.4). It doesn't realize when I've been disconnected from the AIM network, and sometimes it will not reconnect at all if my network connection has been disconnected; I have to completely restart kopete for it to work. The history also leaves MUCH to be desired, and while connecting the app is not very responsive. Besides those problems, I really like the silent startup, and also the way it does little non-intrusive popups when people send new messages.
I'm more of an OSX fanatic then a Mac fanatic.
But if you are using OSX, complaining about it being slow on a machine like that is like complaining about XP being slow on a p233 w/ 64mb of ram.
They aren't that expensive: Apple Store
And when you compare, keep in mind the crap you get when buying a bottom end PC.
I have a hard time going back to my PC.
ender-iii
What about ACPI support in Xandros? Power management appears to be an area where Windows is truly better than Linux right now. I'd run Linux on my notebook in a heartbeat and I have tried several distros on it in the past but none of them even come close to providing the quality power management that Windows XP has. I'll still use Linux on desktop and server machines where appropriate but I can't live without good ACPI support on my notebook and so XP stays, for now. . .
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
The RAM doesn't affect file copy -- it's the disk space that matters here. The 8600s only shipped with a 4 Gig drive (max, you might have a 2 gigger in there). I suspect the disk is almost full.
I've been using Macs since 1986 and the only file copy problems I've seen have been when the HD is almost full (or totally fragmented).
What MacOS are you running? The original 7.5.5? Or has it been upgraded to 9.1? In either case, comparing those against NT4 is not a level playing field. 7.5.5 is around the Win95 timeframe. I'll take 7.5.5 any day.
I could give some intelligent reasons for buying a Mac, but I'd rather address your unintelligent assumptions.
You are incorrect. Xandros is not "mostly proprietary". Why do people keep trotting out this candrd? Do you really think Xandros wrote several hundred proprietary apps that just happen to look and behave as their open source equivalents?
.." Why would they want to take their time and money to study how to do something if they can buy Xandros and have it done for them? Do you really think people want to read a book about shell scripting, and chase down info about about networking and drivers before they can use their printer?
Xandros is comprised of Debian's Sarge release. The only Xandros code I see is the tweaked KDE code (patches supplied to KDE), their installer and their file manager. A long way from being "mostly proprietary.
People who are prospective Xandros buyers could care less about "Using and learning a Free distro and then passing that knowledge along to the world
As for me, I'll use the best software, open source or proprietary. I've used all the major free distros, and several not-so-major. I've paid my dues running servers and tweaking code. I still like Xandros better.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
"What's holding Linux and BSD back is not the desktop."
True... what's holding it back is the lack of OEM bundling deals and a 800lb gorilla corp. to push it... oh wait, we've got IBM now!
Your brought a huge smile to my face. bravo.
The biggest problem I've had is the sound server can't find one of the wav files for Asteroids and keeps throwing an error message when I hit something.
CrossOver will run Word, Excel and Photoshop fairly well. It won't run Premiere and haven't tried Vegas, but I'm not hopeful. Don't expect your average Winblows apps to work and you won't be disappointed.
I don't know why on earth you'd want to take nice Linux distro and crap it up with Windows programs anyway. Dual boot back to Windows...don't forget to unplug your internet connection first. :)
New computer parts: $500.00
Copy of Xandros 2.0: $89.00 (plus shipping)
Having your wife say, "Hey, this message from my cousin had some file attached to it." And being able to answer, "Don't worry about it, baby, just delete it.": Priceless
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Seeing shots like this really make me embarassed to use Linux.
I use Linux because of what it has to offer me.
I dont use Windows because it has nothing to offer me (verified by a phone call with M$ last week:).
I dont want Linux to look/behave/feel like Windows.
Why on earth would someone pay the same amount of money for something that looks and feels just like windows (shutter) but has 0% of the software and hardware support? Wanna impress me, try ripping off OSX first, or for crying out loud rip off a Mac slogan and "Think Different".
The install went like a breeze. I really liked it compared to the Mandrake install because it asked for all the usual information (ip address/dhcp, root pass, users and passwords etc etc) up front rather than after the install process.
My impression of the desktop was rapidly lowered when it booted up into KDE after the install. I'm a major KDE fan, so why the default browser was Mozilla rather than Konqueror?
And it was the full Mozilla, rather than the nippy, lightweight Firebird
But I digress here - i think Xandros made a strategic error here. Konqueror is tightly integrated into KDE - that's the whole point of KDE - make it easy , make it integrated. Ok, this sounds like Micro$oft, but the strategy is clearly aimed at Grandma/Joe Six pack end user.
Why lump them with Moz , when even Moz themselves say that the Moz browser is too bloaty?
I couldn't find Kmail either - i had to use the Moz emailer (urggh), and loading times on my test 700 mhz , 128mb box were appalling - about 5 seconds to load the Moz browser.
My honest advice to Xandros is - dump Moz, keep OpenOffice, and make Konqueror/Kmail the default browser & email system.
And yes folks - i know how to change this on Xandros to my own preferences, but that's not the point - we're talking about Joe Six Pack end user here. The distro initial decisions ARE important. Incredibly important.
But on that negative note, i must leave with a very positive note - the install process is best i've ever seen in distro so far. It's awesome - and highly professional and well presented. It's a new benchmark that other distro's should follow. (well, i haven't tried out Mepis yet - or texstar's PCLinuxOS...)
You probably hit it right on the mark that he is running less that OS X, but your side comments lack.
Yes his file system is probably fragmented on that mac because of lack of space. But you missed the key symptom. Netscape doesn't work during the copy! This proves that he is not using OS X. This is because Mac OS less than OS X does not have true multitasking. A copy operation Mac OS
Mac OS 7.5.5 vs Win95? Win95 has true multitasking. I'd pick 95 over any Mac OS
Mac hardware is always more expensive, comparing each device to equivalent PC device. Apple is a computer company. They make money selling computers. They are no different than dell and gateway. What I mean is that computer makers prices are generally the same across the board. But since PC is an open architechure, you can always get better hardware than a Mac for less money.
Mac OS X vs XP:
I don't care about either of these operating systems. They are neither stable or fast. And I don't use them.
You probably hit it right on the mark that he is running less that OS X, but your side comments lack.
Yes his file system is probably fragmented on that mac because of lack of space. But you missed the key symptom. Netscape doesn't work during the copy! This proves that he is not using OS X. This is because Mac OS less than OS X does not have true multitasking. A copy operation Mac OS less than X can block the entire desktop (or any other process). During a normal copy on a Mac OS less than X, it would be short an minimally intrusive to his netscape usage. But since space is short and probably fragmentation, the longer copy operation will block netscape. This is a fault of the OS, probably a side-effect of (maybe orignally) poor architecture. And it persisted for a long time.
Mac OS 7.5.5 vs Win95? Win95 has true multitasking. I'd pick 95 over any Mac OS less than OS X. I'd pity anyone who thinks Mac OS less than OS X good. It'd make a terrible webserver/gameserver (don't click the mouse on the desktop or you'll cause lag!). Of course they had to copy a unix to get true multitasking in their "Mac OS X".
Mac hardware is always more expensive, comparing each device to equivalent PC device. Apple is a computer company. They make money selling computers. They are no different than dell and gateway. What I mean is that computer makers prices are generally the same across the board. But since PC is an open architechure, you can always get better hardware than a Mac for less money.
Mac OS X vs XP:
I don't care about either of these operating systems. They are neither stable or fast. And I don't use them.
This is a GREAT effort in the Linux Community. I see the market of this OS (casue differently from distros, this is an OS) is double. The small office where secretaries have to make some specific things without problems and cheap computers, where you can save a lot on the OS price and you can offer to a new computer user an easy system, that for him/her would be as new as any other (at least, theorically). If this will have succes, i think in the best way of the opensource community improvment will be coded, particular features (especially hardware support), hopefully under GPL license.
I JUST BOUGHT XANDROS DELUXE 2.0 and it just WORKS!!!
This experience left me speechless! Amazing! It's amazing how they have managed to do it! It is here! Rival competitor to Windows! Even my girlfriend fell in love with it and says is looks and operates better than her XP. Linux desktop is HERE! RIGHT NOW! Rejoice!
You could be even more helpful if you'd tell us what is wrong with the linux desktop
OK, I'll bite.
1) where is the linux desktop? What is it called? Where do I get it?
2) When will cut/copy/and paste work?
3) How do I install new software?
4) How do I install new hardware?
Its hard to think of others, because I've used Linux for 9 years now, and am used to it, but there are plenty of things it needs before going prime time on the desktop. And ripping off Window's GUI is about the last priority. Why not rip off Apple? Back in 95 that is what Windows did.
Here is some information that might help you understand the problem this guy is having.
I have never used Xandros, I'm sure it's fine. But the habit of the reviewer of saying things like "even a total newbie to Linux will have an easy time navigating" really bugged me. How does he know? Did he (a) have a total newbie (or, even better, several of them) try it? Or (b) did he just play with it and think to himself "hmm... this is _really_ easy for me, so it must be at least fairly easy for a newbie".
Since he didn't go to any lengths to claim it was (a), I'll assume (b). In which case saying something like "a total newbie will find this easy" is quite meaningless. Why? Because - as anyone who has experience with usability testing will attest - it's really hard to predict what a "total newbie" will and won't find confusing. _Especially_ when you're an advanced user (say, a reviewer on "extremetech.com".
That's all.
grib.
maybe
Don't feed the troll. This is a known trollish comment, one that has been recycled for several years (just search for 17 meg for instance). I've seen this troll with several mac models and oses compared to windows, linux, be etc. Someone's having a strange type of fun..
Actually it's impressive how much effort it takes to strip down a Linux Desktop to the lack of features Windows supplies. Just look how they castrated the calculator...
I've been facing a similar dilemma, though I have some experience with desktop Linux (and a lot with servers).
Unfortunately, I'm not ready to live without Photoshop, Illustrator, AfterEffects, SoundForge and Flash MX. And I suppose I would probably absolutely have to run Excel etc every once in a while.
So I've been thinking about just running two computers all the time and having a KVM switch swap my input devices between them.
That way I could use Linux as my main software development and netstuff platform, and when I felt a need I could just flip the switch and be in my media authoring environment.
This might seem like overkill, but I have a hunch it's going to work out well. Until I get the cash together to build a Big Fat Compy and run VMware...
This Like That - fun with words!
I dont want Linux to look/behave/feel like Windows
Linux is also about choice. What you like, someone else won't like - and vice versa. That's why you can choose not to install XPDE, whereas others might choose to.
You have some good points, though some which aren't the fault of Linux as a desktop.
1) where is the linux desktop? What is it called? Where do I get it?
You get it on a computer with it preinstalled - the only way a non-technical user is likely to get any OS. The fact that this is difficult is not because of Linux as a desktop however. Armed with a cd of Mandrake or WinXP I think the difficulty in installation is tiny, and I'm not sure in whos favour.
2) When will cut/copy/and paste work?
I personally don't have problems with this, they do work for me, even between Gnome, KDE and OpenOffice. Depends how old the applications you are using are of course.
3) How do I install new software?
The average user wont know how to do this properly under windows. At least with a proper package management system (as is available in most modern distributions) all programs are installed in the same way, through the same interface. Once a user understands how it works (all of 10 minutes) then program installation is easy.
4) How do I install new hardware?
Good point, it can be difficult for a non-tech user. Most wont, but those who do under windows are able to use the standard drivers which come with the hardware. The hope is that your Linux distribution will have hardware detection support, and that the hardware is old enough that there is a kernel module to run it. This should be all done automatically, but a lot of the time doesn't.
I'm sorry, but my experience with linux would say otherwise.
I recently did a FTP install of SuSE 9.0, and here is my experience. The first thing that I had difficulty with was the pre installation setup. SuSE didn't detect my network card (a rather plain Linksys). After booting back into windows, I discovered that the module titled "tulip" was the correct module to use (if "tulip" is an intuitive title for a network module, I'd like to hear the explanation.
After selecting the correct network card, I was prompted for the FTP site that I would be installing from. Rather than the logical ftp.foo.com, I needed to know the numeric IP address. Of course this meant, booting into windows (again) and pinging the site to get the IP address.
The next step after the preinstall fiasco was to pick the bits I wanted to install, which YaST handled extremely well. After a while, the SaX2 utility was run to set up Xfree86. It did not detect my monitor correctly (no biggie, it was in the list) and promptly put me at the biggest thorn in my side, mouse configuratiom. I use a Microsoft Intellimouse Optical explorer, a 5 button (plus wheel) mouse that has both back and forwards buttons on the side. I was not, nor am I able today to get my mouse fully functioning in Linux. I followed instructions at 3 different sites that involved editing XF86Config, xinitrc, and imwheelrc (Still think linux is desktop ready?) After following the rather vague instructions, I was left with a system that would not boot into KDE, and I ended up having to edit the files from a command prompt.
Driver installation was a pain in linux because installing the Nvidia drivers requires a root shell with X not running. In SuSE (and fedora, maybe others) there isn't an option to boot without X, because the failsafe (command line) still has X running. Eventually, I googled and found that "init 3" was the command used to stop X. Silly me, I never would have guessed.
The next thing I did was to attempt to install the Evolution mail client. I performed the install instructions, and found that executing Evolution did nothing. I fired up YaST and it found evolution and completed the install steps I must have missed. On a side note, clicking links in the Summary pane does nothing (it is supposed to open the link in my web browser.)
The final thing I attempted with Linux was to get firebird up and running. Of course, my side mouse buttons didn't work (and still don't), but I had given up on that and wanted to move on to something that would be rewarding. Firebird in it's default form uses some dog-ugly fonts. I had installed my lovely truetype fonts in Linux (KDE looks great) and wanted Firebird to play along. After googling again I was given instructions that again required the editing of obscure text files, this time "unix.js"... After following the instructions, the font menu almost worked correctly. Firebird can find my truetype fonts, but clicking the OK button does nothing, zilch, nada. Infuriating to say the least. In the windows version of firebird, my side buttons work correctly, AND my fonts also work.
Other things that still don't work correctly are any program that requires root access (YaST, SaX2, Superuser Filebrowser, etc.) all have a checkbox to "Keep password"; none of them do.
Linux fans often loudly proclaim that linux is ready for the desktop, and for two subsets of users, they may be correct. People that have a guru to help them, and the gurus themselves. I am in neither of those categories and I find linux sorely lacking (the font and mouse button things drive me crazy).
I dont want Linux to look/behave/feel like Windows.
This is not for you. Nobody's making you use this. Nobody cares that you don't like this. Now shut the fuck up.
Why on earth would someone pay the same amount of money for something that looks and feels just like windows (shutter) but has 0% of the software and hardware support?
Why do you ask? Nobody has suggested anything of the sort.
The article lists 3 negative points:
1) No VPN "wizard"
This is absurdly nitpicky. It might be a neat extra feature, but I don't think any OS has a VPN wizard in the base install.
2) America's Army isn't bundled.
Excuse me? Are you insane? Why in the name of heaven would Xandros bundle a 3D game with their OS that is being targeted at corporate desktops? Windows doesn't bundle any games besides a few amusements of their own, and I can't think of another distribution that would package any major 3rd-party game, let alone one that is as politically loaded as America's Army. Linux is very international, you know... What ever happened to acquiring software and installing it? Who says it has to be bundled with the OS?
3) No Gnome
While I would be the first to argue for Gnome over KDE in the first place, including Gnome with Xandros would really be the wrong decision. Gtk libraries are an inexcusable omission if that's the case, but Gnome is an entirely separate desktop environment. Xandros is taking a stand for one DE and I respect that, given that they are targeting their distribution to a very specific market. Windows doesn't include Litestep, OSX doesn't include a full OS9 environment, so I fail to see the precedent among commercially-targeted OSes. Both Gnome and KDE are designed from the ground-up to work in a vacuum, and any interoperability is, at the moment, kludgey at best.
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
Trust me, MS will be WELL aware of the existance of XPDE. Why are they not acting?
Possibly because it's perfectly legal? Microsoft's empire is built on copying the look and feel of other OSes - they'd be in trouble if they tried to argue it was illegal all of a sudden.
Dude, this review is about Xandros, the parent poster mentioned MEPIS, and you're talking about fucking SuSE?
Get a clue.
No matter how many times I've tried to get it working, Suse (my formerly favorite distro) could never play videos smoothly on my machine.
Xandros Deluxe 2.0 plays them smoothly out of the box. For me, that, plus the crossover office and crossover plugin proprietary packages included in the price, were enough to make it worthwhile.
But that's just me...and I bought Suse, so it isn't a free vs. paid decision for me.
Linux is perfectly ready for the desktop. Lots of big corporations wouldn't be using it if it weren't. As it happens, many are doing just that. For heaven's sake, CDE was ready for the desktop fifteen years or so ago[0], and that was a lot more primitive than any of the desktops commonly used on Linux.
What it perhaps isn't ready for at the moment is being put on an arbitrary machine by an arbitrary user. Particularly, if you have a graphics card that requires a special driver to be installed[1] but you don't have the knowledge to do that extra installation (most likely at the command-line) then you'll have a terrible experience. But in that case there are still options: for example, find your local LUG[2], or get a machine with Linux preinstalled.
[0] Companies were certainly using it on the desktop.
[1] Though AFAIK most of the "trouble" cards are the 3D ones and they have basic 2D drivers that should at least get you into X (the difference between the "nv" driver and nVidia's own "nvidia" driver, for example).
[2] Just try finding your local Windows Users Group, though.
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
I'm partially in agreement with you, though I can't say I agree that OS X is somehow inherently more usable than XP. (I'm typing on a PB G4 right now btw) I use both XP and OS X extensively, as well as Linux (KDE).
XP has relatively few interface issues that I can point out, it has issues with hiding preferences from users, and with inconsistent application of visual themes, but OS X's classic, and legacy carbon applications, and Unix's competing X11 desktop environments have similar issues.
Having said that, I'm constantly annoyed by the fact that people blindly copy the Windows interface over and over, (taskbar and start button) in the mistaken belief that if it looks and works a bit like Windows then it's easy to use.
Plane controls look at a glance like car controls, there's a wheel, and peddles, and a stick. But get in and try to operate a plane using the principles learned from driving a car, and you'll most likely end up colliding with the nearest object. If you can get it started, that is.
The same applies when using an operating system, lulling users into a false sense of security by providing them with familiar looking objects that don't quite work the same as the object they ape is a dirty trick, and one that infuriates people and interrupts their workflow.
It's time to stop copying other operating systems and start working on making the interface [y]our own. Flashy translucent docks or taskbars and start buttons are not the only way to do things, and they both have shortcomings when taxed. There MUST be a better way, and we're not going to find it by copying other people's work, be it OS X, NextStep or Windows.
One more thing that's missing for Linux to work on the desktop: easy software installation. But it's getting closer.
For instance, to install the Flash plugin on IE, I just surf to a site and click a few buttons. Done. On Mozilla, I have to download a file and know how to install it. However, macromedia now pops up a screen that says "Save it here, use the console to type this command, then do this and you're finished." Those instructions help bring it closer.
LindowsOS, Xandros, and other distros are giving people a repository to download free (or not free) software automatically -- apt-get with a pretty package, basically, but that makes it easy. It's getting closer.
The day I can go to a website, download a file to my desktop, double-click it and have it install -- consistently and every time -- is the day I say it's ready.
And it gets closer every month. Whee!
Once upon a time (late last year, actually), I read an article about an electric car. It's a very expensive and impractical one in many ways, mind you, but they got one part really, really right: the range on a single charge was approximately 300 miles.
Now, you can read that two ways. Since I'm familiar with electric car technology, I know that you're lucky to get 45 miles out of a single charge in most electric cars, and the best ones can stretch to about 90. I also know that my little Nissan Sentra has a range of approximately 360 miles. So I looked at that 300 mile range number, and thought, "Holy Crap! They just leaped from 1/4 the range of my Sentra to 5/6 the range -- that's phenomenal!"
The person who wrote the article, however, presumably wasn't familiar with the technology. Or perhaps he drives a car that gets 40+mpg and carries 16 gallons. I'm not sure why, but they looked at that 300 mile range and called the range "extremely limited".
This is how I see these "is Linux ready for the desktop?" discussions.
If you've been playing with Linux and Windows for a few years, and then you try something like Xandros, you're likely to say "Holy Crap! They have made a huge leap forward in hardware compatibility, integration, ease of installation and use, functionality and compatibility, akin to the functionality of Windows 98!"
If you've been playing with Windows exclusively, and you don't see or understand the progress that has been made in the last few years, you're likely to say "Well, I clicked something and got an error message I didn't understand, and it didn't set up exactly like my Windows box did, so I don't think it's ready for the desktop."
I can play 3D shooter games. I can run 95% of the programs I want for work and play. I can listen to streaming radio stations, download account information from my bank, and SSH into my email server at home to bypass the company firewall. It's not parity with Windows XP, but it's getting mighty close.
And it's a heck of a lot more ready for the desktop than Windows 95 was -- and we all used that once upon a time.
It has to be so expensive because nobody buys it. *shrug*
Well, the URL is incredibly convoluted, but it doesn't appear to be session specific or anything, so here you go :)
:)
(I searched at walmart.com on "Lindows" and then "all results in Electronics.")
It's not the latest or greatest, but it's got a faster processor than any machine I own, a hard drive we (I) would have (figuratively speaking) killed for a few years ago, enough RAM to run a nice GUI, etc. And obviously, it runs Linux, if that matters to you, courtesy of Michael Robertson
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Er, it may not be local, but there are plenty of people on the net ready to fix Windows problems, a rather large community actually.
I had exactly the same experience just yesterday. Except I also had to edit grub files.
Mandrake and Fedora are better, but still no sale.
I would give you a mod point if I had any.
It is called Mandrake.
It already does (middle click).
Double click on the rpm in the file manager.
It is autodetected and installed (same as in Windows).
It looks very nice, and I'd love to use it, but for now I've gone back to gaim.. I couldn't find any way to make the enter key enter messages. That's pretty much my only quibble with kopete.
I agree. I have a couple of friends who use Linux on a regular basis. A few months ago, they were regular Windows users and now they barely do anything with MS. Even on Windows, they still use free (beer/speech) software.
Two things bug me about Xandros though:- The fact that they don't contribute much to the community and,
- The fact that they added too much closed-source applications that many users don't really need passing the expenses to the consumers.
For those two reasons they don't seem much like a good Linux distributer. At least SUSE gives back to the community.
At the very least they could give up a lot of the bloat many users can replace with free (and possibly better) stuff, and lower the price, if not make it free.
Yeah, I tried it out myself on my slackware box. Aside from the bugs, not only didn't it support xinerama, but you couldn't move the mouse away from the XPDE desktop where another window manager was running on the second head.
Linux is also about choice
Hear hear. I think it's a fantastic offering. Someone may want to reformat the family machine to a Linux box but has someone that uses XP for a bit of wordprocessing/browsing. Install the XP theme plus Abiword and Firebird and then no complaints... they simply won't notice the difference.
If you read the homepage, it's only an additional simple window manager you can install if you choose. It's not a commercial OS offering, just someone writing it for fun.
So feel free to be embarrassed (original poster, not parent) to use Linux. The rest of us will just have fun. Whether it's XP, Aqua, Star Trek, or what-ever anyone fancies writing.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
The failure of Linux for Desktops IS NOT how it looks, but rather:
1. Applications available (robust office suite)
2. Consistency (make menus/scrollbars, etc. look the same across applications)
3. Straight forward installation (make it simpler than windows!!!)
If the Linux community focuses on solving these issues first, we would have a hit. Later on you can make it look like Mac or Windows or something more innovative.
Gah. I'm sticking with OS X.
The day I can go to a website, download a file to my desktop, double-click it and have it install -- consistently and every time -- is the day I say it's ready.
Take a closer look at what is happening here. The user downloads an executable file. Does it contain a virus or trojan? There's no way to tell because there's no system in place to verify the integrity of the file. We can't check the signature in the package. We're getting it from an unknown source. Next, what components is it installing? Again, there's no way to know. It will probably overwrite existing components, and may break existing hardware. That's because there's no concept of dependencies in the Windows world. The software has to ship with every possible dependency. It must make several broad assumptions after that. Finally, it installs its files to numerous locations. These aren't necessarily standard locations, and some of them can be chosen by the user. I've had more than one instance where trying to install an upgrade to an application failed, because I didn't install the original app to the default location. Then there's the whole problem of uninstalling the software...
We have several points of failure here. All of them occur so frequently that Windows users assume that they are the normal state of things. But they are not the normal state for Linux, BSD or other package based UNIX systems. Packages solve all of the problems above.
We CAN have packages that you double click on and which install automatically. Heck, we've got them now for most distros! It's a reliable method that is easy to use.
The problem comes when you have software not "ported" over to your distros packaging scheme. The user is unable to download any random trojan and expect it to reliably trash their system. I'm not being terribly facetious when I use the words "trojan" and "trash", because all software that isn't in a signed package is untrusted software. I'm not really sure making untrusted software easy to install is a good thing.
So what do the third party commercial applications do? They either create their own packages, or they write their own installation scripts. Both have successfully been done.
Packages are a better system than self-installing executable. In every way. They're not harder to use, just different.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Also, regarding gnome...Don't use it. KDE is miles ahead in terms of usability/configurability for new users.
Also I think you're wrong about choice; there are some solid choices that any user will be happy with (Konqueror/Evolution), and you don't need to tell 'em about the myriad other options. Xandros, Lindows et. al. do a good job of being oriented towards the new user. Sure, windows may still be the easiest thing for most people to use. If that's the case, then they should keep using it. But there ARE alternatives out there. And linux has reached a point where things are very usable. I'm just glad I can run photoshop, illustrator, pagemaker, and dreamweaver on linux. These are core apps to what I do (Although I'm starting to move away from dreamweaver). Eventually these may be replaced with open source products, but until then, things work for me. And they work for a lot of other people.
They don't work for everyone, and I don't think anyone is claiming that. Is that so wrong? Do we have to be 100% to be successful?
Anyone know how Crossover compares to Wine and/or WineX? I am really considering a purchase to try this distro, but I would rather do a clean break from windows (not dual boot). Migrate apps slowly to native distro and in the meantime continue to use Windows apps on the distro. So, how is Crossover compared to Wine/WineX?
Maybe I'm too late posting this question...
It works fine in linux too. I have Windows as well, but I never have spyware/malware hassles in Linux. I never find some crappy software has installed itself on my box. For simplicity, it just works better for me. Linux is a perfectly good OS. Guess how much it cost me? So far, about 24 bucks. I buy the CDs, update when I want, no hassles.
Your devotion to Windows puzzles me. I am not a Linux zealot, but if there are two operating systems and they both work for what I need, why would you reccommend the proprietary and expensive one?