Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Patenting Office XML Formats
mmurphy000 writes "News(.com)+ reports that Microsoft has filed for patents in multiple jurisdictions to control the way other applications use Office's new XML-based file formats. Musings from pundits suggest that OpenOffice.org and other applications might be blocked from interoperating with Office. This, of course on the heels of today's article on Bruce Perens' concerns over patents."
How to make a non-proprietary format (XML) proprietary. Gee, wouldn't it just be simpler to cut XML out of Office entirely than to throw legions of lawyers and patents at it?
I can see the headlines now - "RIAA and Microsoft make double bust - RIAA found illegal MP3s and Microsoft found someone using XML output from Office".
Microsoft - "How far do you want your head up your backside today?"
I knew this was coming. Microsoft sympathizers are always so quick to point out "but look, MS is using XML now so why are you complaining about closed file formats". Now this. Why are we not surprised.
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
MS Take a Open Source Standard like XML and Wrap it in Legal BS, Cliam it as their own and make money off it
It also destroys what was the entire rationale for XML, doesn't it? What's the point of a convenient medium through which information may be exchanged if everybody starts patenting their DTD's?
Brace yourself for the next version of DOM/SAX/XPath that not only checks to see if the document is well-formed and/or valid, but that also constrains your access to that document based on some new kind of hybrid between DRM and XML Schema.
It's shit like this that makes me want to get out of computers and get into chemistry.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
they make it xml so its open and easy to work with for developers... now they want to try and make it only the developers that pay them $$ ?
Didn't we have this article before ?
ok, so it was last week, but still, jeez.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
This is exactly the kind of thing the EU Parliament wants the prohibit, via it's amendments to the doming patent EU unification law. The Parliament has clearly excluded the use of patents that hinder software interoperability. Those of you that want to help us in the battle to sustain those amendments (there is a _lot_ of resistance from the big guys) please join at swpat.ffii.org or softwarepatenten.be in Belgium. Patents are indeed more dangerous than SCO.
Which assumes that OOorg is a marginal product. This may be true in some places, for some time, but after a while the failure to interoperate will become a strong argument to switch away from MSOffice.
Typical scene that is not unheard of today:
"I've sent you a Word document"
"Why not install OOorg and use that instead?"
"What's that?"
"It's like Office but free and doesn't crash."
1 hour later...
"Hey, here's your document, and thanks for the tip!"
Point is that it's much easier to switch someone from paying to free software, and almost impossible to do the reverse. I (as a long-time OOorg user) will spend considerably more effort convincing someone to use the application than any MSOffice user will spend to get me to change back.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
This wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't made a big point of pointing out how XML lets you interoperate. Well, I guess that's still true, but they forgot to see "for a fee."
... and we still will, regardless of these patents (which I haven't even bothered to read about). It's my fucking data, and I'll do what the fuck I like with it thank you very much.
"Microsoft has always played an interesting game when it comes to standards," he said. "They're going to support them as necessary to get technology broadly adopted. But at the same time, they're an (intellectual property) company. That's the case with any big business."
I would have agreed, if after broadly adopted he would have said "they stop playing according to the standard and thereby break compatibility with other software". If you're an analyst on Microsoft, you should know what embrace and extend is, and I think he should have mentioned it here. That is, unless he's partial to Microsoft, which the company claims it isn't.
is for SCO to claim they own all of the code to the unix interoperability services/functions/whatever for Windows. Then Microsoft goes after SCO for using XML somewhere else. Then they can go after each other in court. Let them destroy each other! Yay! Off-topic or is it? It's 5:20am and I'm still awake, ignore this post, I'm an idiot.
Based on this article even the latest M$Office on the Mac can't read all files from its WinDOS sibling.
Bottom line is, if you want to avoid a lock-in a.k.a. pay to view your own documents if you decide to stop using M$ Software, don't start using the 'new' M$Office in the first place.
my 2 cents
WinFS is the long-promised "replace the user-data parts of the filesystem with an RDBMS" feature, and a key part of Longhorn. It basically lets you register an XML schema for describing your data, and the data is then stored not as XML but broken down into a relational database (see also GnomeFS).
The PDC bloggers and MS internal staff are writing extensively about WinFS - especially Mike Deem.
One of the concerns people have with WinFS is "but then any other program could fiddle around with the individual records of what I store, how do I hide stuff or stop them making my 'files' inconsistent by screwing up or deleting individual records" - and if MS want to patent some aspect of their getting Office ready for this, does it mean we're all supposed to patent our XML before we stick into WinFS ??
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
The article wasn't too detailed on what the patent covered but if they do patent it doesn't that mean that they have to release the full spec for their format? And if that happens then other Word alternatives could be created giving people more alternatives.
Also would it be possible for me to "make" a file reader/convert for my own private use?
Except that when it's patented , the details are published......
So, someone makes a change to an existing OSS filter, MS can say, "Hey! You used the details of our patent to further your work, pay up or we'll....(insert crushing legal threat here)"
Which means it's going to be much,much harder to get an OSS filter for the next version(s) of MS Office, as you'll have to be pretty strict with the reverse-engineering to ensure you don't wind up in the courts defending your work against a bunch of attack lawyers from a billion-dollar company.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
not that anyone for a moment should have suspected these douchebags would.
they're just speeding up the inevitable, making even more clear why software patents suck ass, and why it's urgent for everyone to reject proprietary technologies NOW. RIGHT NOW. the sooner you do it, the sooner the pain will be over, and the sooner you can start reaping the rewards.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I think that Microsoft is now in the early stages of SCOitis. Our products suck but we have some questionable IP and we're going to make that our major source of revenue.
Arf!
The bottom line is MS technology should not be used in any way, and we should not belive a bought department of justice will do something about it.
This may sound paranoid but is unfortunatly true. Once you are stuck with MS products they may change the license for new versions as they see fit. If it were not for Linux, Windows would be really expensive today.
Anyone else remember back in the day when all hardware was proprietary? (I don't, it was before I was born, but yeah, I've studied the history books). Think we're headed there with software?? Think the big geeks will ever learn from their mistakes? Open source rocks.
---
Luke
Luke Wertz Website
I finally get it!
1. Base your new Office suite on an established format.
2. Modify the standard.
3. ???
4. Profit.
MS have finally filled in the ???
"The proposed patents apparently seek to protect methods other applications could use to interpret the XML dialect, or schema, Office uses to describe and organize information in documents. Microsoft recently agreed to publish those schemas and is looking at opening other chunks of Office code.
Despite those moves toward openness, the patents could create a barrier to competing software, said Rob Helm, an analyst for research firm Directions on Microsoft.
"This is a direct challenge to software vendors who want to interoperate with Word through XML," he said. "For example, if Corel wanted to improve WordPerfect's support of Word by adopting its XML format...for import/export, they'd probably have to license this patent.""
AND THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS. THE REAL MOTIVATION FOR THE PATENTS = ATTEMPT AT CREATING A ROYALTY INCOME STREAM. YOU WILL SEE MORE OF THIS AS MICROSOFT TRYS TO PROP UP ITS FAILING PROFIT MARGINS.
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
Ages ago (back when this was a Windows box) I downloaded a little thing for GIMP that let me make GIFs. This was legal because I live in Europe with no software patents as of yet (fingers crossed/touch wood). .doc is: 'you may only use this module if software patents do not apply in your country.' Of course there'd be no way to stop Americans downloading it, which would be just terrible!
OOo could offer something similar if the patented XML format became as popular as the
September 1, 2003 Eweek 'Longhorn' Rollout Slips
This file format will only become widespread (and hence a threat to open software adoption) if Office 2003 adoption becomes widespread - which I don't see happening right now.
Companies and individuals are starting to take free software seriously. It doesn't have to be Linux - why not give someone a Windows PC (no licensing apart from what it sold with) and OO.o? If OO.o can gain serious market share before Office 2003 does, the whole thing becomes a non-issue.
Use proper W3C XML or OOo filetypes...
Didn't OOo do this kind of thing first with their XML filetypes? MS filed this in June 2002 in NZ, so surely OpenOffice.org has precent for a "Word-processing document stored in a single XML file that may be manipulated by applications that understand XML" maybe sans the "single file" part, which would have to be an obvious follow on?
BTW, more info is on the NZ Open Source Software portal.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
However, I'm a New Zealander, and I'd love to actually try and shoot down this at the NZ patent office based on the wonderful prior art that is OpenOffice.org. However, I saw these two "claims" in the patent:
The rest of the patented method applies to OOo, as OOo provides schemas and writes out a well-formed XML document etc. etc. etc. However, I'm not sure if OOo provides "hints" in the files (anyone care to comment what MS is on about there?).
The kicker is claim [0009]. If you save a
IANAL, but this appears to mean that this patent is "sufficiently original" (haha) that it can probably slip past the rubber-stamp-brigade at the patent office as OOo won't be citeable as prior art. Apparently the NZ patent office is sufficiently stupid that they recognise the "one-click" patent, so I don't hold high hopes for this one.
So, has anyone heard of a word processor that has an XML file format that contains all its binary data? If so, post links under this thread
P.S. And NewtonsLaw, if you're reading this, I hope to see a plan of action on Aardvark tomorrow
<!-- DHTML / JavaScript menu, popup tooltip, Ajax scripts -->
Some may recall, for example, this past article on this topic here, or the specific license terms offered here, the key points of which are specifically GPL incompatible.
When national governments choose to build and distribute information, such as the Danish national government has, on patent license encumbered document formats, whether or not royalty bearing, possessing field of use scope, disclaiming of certain legal rights such as to bring suit, or other specific restrictions, or even composed of terms permitting unlimited modifications to the license by the license holder, as this one also does, such governments are creating restricted markets in the public's own goods. This is of course fundimentally improper and certainly is also illegal restraint of trade in the European Union.
There are many implications in having patent encumbered XML schemas, all of them negative for the schema so encumbered. I had long ago considered this specific possibility and considered what actions I would find nessisary to take when that day arrived. One option I think might be useful is for those in Europe to file a brief with Mario's office (European Competition Minister), and note how this issue relates to their current anti-trust case.
Patents do nothing but slow down an industry and promote laziness....
1) Ford, which is considered the model on how to build cars and do processes HAD to get around patents so that he could build a car that EVERYONE can afford.
2) Windsurfer which invented the windsurfing board had a patent, which they only enforced two years before the end of the patent. Until five years before the end of the patent there was no Wind surfing industry. Windsurfer then cashed in and forced bankruptcy of major windsurfers. Where is Windsurfer today? Sitting on money doing nothing.
3) Laser had a patent which caused nobody to do anything with lasers. Once the patent expired we ended up with laser pointers, last light shows, etc, etc..
4) Patents CANNOT be bought and defended by "small" people. Patents cost about 40,000 EUROS a pop and this is not money for the "small" company. This is money for the large company.
Now about your reference to MS and Internet Explorer. Say what you will, but Netscape was no better than Microsoft. I was around in the Netscape days and they were bastards. Once I represented a company who wanted to purchase five thousand licenses to Netscape. Netscape ignored the company because it was too small and companies like Deutsche Telekom were more important.
Microsoft might clone ideas, just like all of the other companies do as well in the industry. The software industry is like writing, we all clone!
The problem in software are the contracts. For example why do I have to buy Windows 5 times for a single computer?
Sir, I would have wished that you would have used your lawyer abilities to reign in the contracts instead of going for the easy cash in Patents. Remember you are going to be responsible for a mess that *I* have to live in.
Yes, boycott, that's all
After a bit of searching, i've found activity at IP Australia. The application titled "System and method for supporting non-native XML in native XML of a word-processor document" sounds scary!
By saving documents as XML files, the new Office will allow back-end computing systems such as corporate databases to retrieve and reuse data from documents.
Anyone else see the patents as an excuse to charge companies that develop Office/XML solutions for corporates additional licensing fees with this patent?
I can imagine Microsoft being a victim of it's own success here.
.htz?) that would be great.
If by using DRM/Palladium etc. to prevent both:
- Using ripped off copies of Word
- Interoperability with Word
Suddenly a word document will be vastly less useful in the wild than it is now.
Right now I, my mother, her dog and it's accountant can all read Word docs one way or another but none of us have shelled out for Office, and we probably never will.
I actually love using basic HTML for docs, the only problem is that "a document" is actually a bunch of resources. If there was some encapsulated for (a simple zip even?
(This is where someone calls me a Bozo and tells me it already exists...)
Ghandi fought illegitemate law, by not cooperating with it.
Doing the right thing, and suffering the consequences.
It could be interesting if the entire world violated software patents just like its violating copyrights - but also willingly suffer the consequences/punishment. According to Ghandi this is the most effective way to fight the illegitmacy. By willing to suffer the consequences, you are effectively making your opponent's sword worthless.
As I underestand it, if MS patents their file formats, that will prevent anyone without a license from generating files in MS Office formats, but it will not prevent people from displaying them or converting the information into other formats. That's because such patents are for methods of "storing" information. I know this seems pedantic, but law is pedantic, and I'm thinking of the precedent of LZW compression. Without a license, you couldn't generate GIF images but you could display them and convert them. So, although I'm distrustful of Microsoft (and don't use their products), and opposed to software patents, perhaps these patents aren't as dangerous as they seem. Any lawyers know for sure?
I am reminded of what Microsoft said in the Halloween Document:
"OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market."
This new patent scheme also explains why, in any discussion of the use of Open Source by governments, some poster always pops up and says, "We don't need Open Source in government, we only need Open Standards."
I guess the idea is that Microsoft's Office XML would still qualify as an "open standard" even though only Microsoft could use it.
The sooner Microsoft is crushed, the better off we will all be.
...by none other than IBM.
United States Patent #6,658,642 was awarded to Megiddo, et al. on December 2, 2003. The Assignee: International Business Machines Corporation of (Armonk, NY).
System, method and program product for software development provides that "Software developers intending to participate may provide an intention to submit."
This patent goes a long way to explain IBM's, Novell's and Microsoft's interest in OSS. philtr
So Microsoft looked at Java, saw the benefits it had to offer, and decided to create a similar technology that included more advancements. Now Sun sees the enhancements that .NET has over Java, so they include it in their next version of Java (its happening, do some research). This is not a bad thing. The Java guys didn't invent programming languages, believe me. They're work is based on people that came before them.
Proclaiming that one technology is similar or based on another technology does not diminish its value.
It would be obvious to one skilled in the art to use xml as a document processors file format given that abiword already does this.
I believe that abiword could be used as a flat out 102 rejection saying that any xml file format would be obvious. Also given that fact that XHTML is the current HTML standing and waiting spec.
Does anyone know how to contact the patent examiner on this? I'm looking at uspto.gov, but not sure how to tell them how obvious this is.
When I was there I rejected a patent filed by Microsoft for their font data structure as I believe that it is just a data structure and there was nothing unobvious about how you lay out the font data. Especially given the fact that they gave me their old font data structure. In my opinion this is no different. Its just XML!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Here are a few thoughts about Microsoft's WPML.
- It's based on W3 standards
- It stores data in XML format
- It has a companion XML Schema Document
Now, if I understand WPML correctly, it could be possible to transform core WPML elements to OO [Open Office] or other formats using XSLT. Of course, OO uses multiple files and MS embeds them in a single document. But It's quite possible that you could use extensions to XSLT to aggregate multiple files for converting to WPML, output multiple files when converting to OO, xform encoded data to stand alone files, etc.
If this is the case, the ability to xform documents between OO and WPML could be completely embedded in one or more XSL style-sheets, which is completely standards based.
This means that applications that support exchange using standards like XSLT might be able to convert WPML documents on the fly if the user provided it the correct XSLT templates to go along with it. In other words, the program would have no application specific logic for converting Word XML documents. It's all generic.
The tricky part becomes making styles-sheets available to standards compliant applications, which goes back to my first post.
Are XSL style-sheets applications? Could a client that needs you to build an app which saves XML Word documents point your application to these style-sheets at run time? If they need to read Word docs, then it's quite likely they have licensed some MS technology when they purchased Office.
Hum.....
....or SXC for spreadsheets ;)
The OpenOffice.org file formats are close to being what you describe - they are XML with CSS and other properties defined, and then zipped into, SXW or SXC files. You can open an SX* file using any application that supports unzipping, and extract the individual components as you like.
Perhaps OpenOffice.org could challenge the validity of MS's patent on the basis of prior art using XML in THEIR document formats!
Visceral Psyche Films
it's a bit of an irrelevant discussion at this point I think... but you might as well say that C is a markup language in the idiomatic "Hello World" example. The difference is that XML when used to store documents (Word XML, OOo XML, XHTML, etc.) is declarative and merely describes the text it contains. Postscript, "Hello World" and other procedural languages *operate* on the strings they contain. It's not just a semantic difference -- it's a Fundamental Paradigm Shift (tm).
You can't, for example, do this in Word XML.
Here's a program I just wrote which is similar to a common Postscript example:
If that looks like markup to you, I will have to respectfully submit that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Ever looked at the output of Illustrator's Postscript exporter?
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."