India Becoming a Major Hub for Western Job Seekers

MaximusTheGreat writes: "IHT and Financial Express report that many qualified Western professionals are moving to India for jobs. Two of the most common reasons mentioned are adding the Indian experience to the CV and search of better opportunities in a booming Indian economy. According to a Mumbai based head hunting firm, "A lot of the highly qualified talent has traditionally been mobile and attracted to centers of excellence globally. This was true of the US in the early 80s when top flight talent from India migrated in search of better opportunities. Today, the same is happening to economies such as India and China" This should also bust the myth that foreigners are not allowed work in India."

Comments

Outsourced

[Anonymous Coward]

The task of getting first post has been outsourced to India.

Uh oh . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I got out of computer science to be an electrical engineer. My advisor always encouraged me to study abroad in India because that's where everything is shifting. I did not want to do this. I hope that this trend does not continue :(

Re:Uh oh . . .

[SlashdotLemming]

I hope that this trend does not continue

Just curious, is there any outcome to any situation that will not cause mass hysteria among the /. community?

People come to the US looking for jobs..PANIC!!!! People leave the US looking for jobs...PANIC!!! President tries to solve this problem by trying to kill all those annoying foreigners...PANIC!!!

Jeez, I feel for you people

Re:Uh oh . . .

[iminplaya]

Just goes to show the /. community is no different than any other community. We're just as greedy and racist as the rest of the world. Generally speaking, of course. Pointing that out will get me modded down, but as we say, "Ni modo".

Re:Uh oh . . .

[Frymaster]

probably almost as well off in many other contries working for $10 than $20 in the US. You don't have to pay 30% income tax

1. 30% tax on $20/hr? even here in "socialist" canada it's more like 16%. i think you have a "fact problem"
2. i assume you think that your taxes just evaporate or something. are you willing to live with reduced:
   1. police protection
   2. health care
   3. subsidized education
   4. general infrastructure
   5. unemployment and old age security
   6. public safety (ie fda inspections)
   7. price controls on inelastic commodities
   8. space program

You can sleep well at night knowing if you are a crack addict the government will pay your way through rehab

this is obviously a Bad Idea. it should be the goal of the government to ensure there are as many untreated crack heads roaming around the streets as possible.

you are going to pay for society's drug problems one way or another. you can either pony up some tax to get crack heads off the street, into rehab and turn them into productive citizens... or you can ignore the problem and pay in lost economic productivity, increased policing costs and in one lump cash payment when that untreated crack head sticks you up for a fix.

We keep throwing away American tax dollars at foreign nations only to be the most hated country in the world

are you counting the cost of cluster bombs as a foreign aid expense?

seriously. do you know who the single biggest recipient of us foreign aid is? israel. thirty per cent of foreign aid goes to that nation - and they are not you enemy.

of course, the us doesn't hand out foreign aid for free. packages often come with spending restrictions that are geared towards ingratiating the recipient country to the donor and then there are saps - structural adjustment policies - whereby aid is conditional upon economic reforms in the recipient country that are beneficial to the us corporate sector.

hint: learn something about how foreign aid works and what it does before commenting on it.

They should raise their nations taxes by several billion a year and take over babbysiting the rest of the world then

all the countries of the world that take part in un peacekeeping missions find your suggestion ludicrous and insulting.

Re:Uh oh . . .

[Frymaster]

well... i just got out my pay stub and a calculator and added up all my deductions: federal, proviincial, cpp, ei and my voluntary "extra deduction" (to ensure i don't get a bill at tax time) and it came to...

26.3%

which is more than 16 but still way less than 30... and i live in canada! where we have things like single payer health care and government subsidies for just about everything...

nothing personal, but it sounds like you americans are getting ripped off! more tax, less service... sheesh.

Re:Uh oh . . .

[Prof.Phreak]

Hmm... just calculated mine... 38.5% (wow, I never realized it was this much).

(this doesn't include 401K, etc., just federal, state, city, medicare, blah blah blah blah, and you end up with very little of the actual `money').

Re:Uh oh . . .

[Frymaster]

reduced... police protection -- we already are

er. reduced from what? last year? last century? i am talking about police protection levels lower than they are currently - hence the word "reduced". you are talking about... i'm not sure what.

subsidized education -- Subsidized by whom?

it's been a long time since i've been to the states... do they have cover charges for high school now?

general infrastructure -- The roads in SIlicon Valley are collapsing.

the roads in silicon valley exist. were they created on the sixth day by god?

unemployment and old age security -- Social Security is approaching insolvency.

and paying less tax will help this... how? social security exists. is this another "sixth day" creation? nope. taxes, my lad.

public safety (ie fda inspections) -- We had 9/11 and now mad cow. That's the kind of 'saftey' we get for our 50%.

thanks for bringing up mad cow. thanks to your tax dollars, the infected beef was caught at the distribution level and prevented from ever getting to market. is less tax worth dying of vCJD?

100% of all taxes collected in the U.S. go to pay the interest on the debt

well, looking at the wikipedia page on the the us national debt, i notice that it says "47% of personal income taxes" go to servicing the debt. no corporate taxes, no sales taxes, no "sin" taxes - just personal income taxes, and less than half at that.

now, that's still a huge debt-servicing cost, but it isn't, as you claim, "100% of all taxes collected in the U.S.".

Ha ha. Man are you the one who is ignorant:

back at you pal.

Exciting

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

Hey, free movement of labor is required for fairness of free movement of capital.

Depending on what sort of world you want, I guess.

Re:Exciting

[MisterFancypants]

The other part that makes it exciting is they might get nuked by the Pakistanis at any time.

Livin' on the bleeding edge of technology!

Re:Exciting

[terraformer]

Depending on what sort of world you want, I guess.

This is exactly the problem w/ free trade. Conservatives want it for obvious reasons and progressives want it since they mistakenly believe it will bring up the standards of living in the target countries. Although it does (bring up the std of living), it does so through achieving equilibrium. The problem with that is to achieve equilibrium, two sides need to meet in the middle and that means decrease in the std of living for the higher income group. To prevent this it requires a smart plan, one which is sorely lacking in this case. In the absence of this plan, the only people who benefit from free trade are the really rich as they income gap increases.

The facts bear out the assertion that the rich are benefitting from this arrangement since both the US and Mexico have seen a shrinking of their middle class and a growth in the income gap between top and bottom. Also, in the absence of a smart plan for implementing free trade, it allows the corporations to continue to support corrupt regimes with total impunity, with no control by any authority.

Welcome to the new world...

Re:Exciting

[iminplaya]

From ny experience, 20 years ago inflation in Mexico was running about 125% a year, but everything seemed to remain affordable. Now with NAFTA, inflation may be down, but the prices are almost as high as in the states, but the wages are nowhere near that. Prices still do climb, but wages appears stagnant. Gasoline, electricity, milk, toilet paper, etc. are actually more expensive than in the states. I don't know how the people tolerate it. But they do.

Re:Exciting

[WIAKywbfatw]

The point is, Germany went largely unchallenged for 5 years before the US got involved.

Way to fucking rewrite history. Britain, Frace, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and others were all actively at war with Germany way before the US got reluctantly dragged into the war in Europe. Britain, Australia and New Zealand also fought against Japan in Asia and the Pacific Rim.

Please, pick up a book or something every once in a while. The world doesn't revolve around the US.

Re:Exciting

[ajagci]

The problem with that is to achieve equilibrium, two sides need to meet in the middle and that means decrease in the std of living for the higher income group.

I don't see a problem with that. Some people (us) have been getting more than their fair share for a while. We should consider ourselves lucky to have had such good fortune for so long. It's not our right.

To prevent this it requires a smart plan, one which is sorely lacking in this case.

No, it requires a very simple plan: improve the average standard of living of the globe quickly enough so that it compensates for the decrease resulting from equillibration. Anything else wouldn't be a "plan", it would be a fraud.

Of course, free trade or not, the Western lifestyle will have to change: it simply isn't sustainable, and it can't be scaled up to the rest of the world. In particular, Americans will need to live in smaller, more energy-efficient houses, take public transportation, buy more energy efficient cars, recycle more, etc.

The facts bear out the assertion that the rich are benefitting from this arrangement since both the US and Mexico have seen a shrinking of their middle class and a growth in the income gap between top and bottom. Also, in the absence of a smart plan for implementing free trade, it allows the corporations to continue to support corrupt regimes with total impunity, with no control by any authority.

The US middle class has lots of serious, self-created problems; don't blame Mexico or free trade for that.

Re:Exciting

[Ed Avis]

A decrease in the standard of living for the American (or $COUNTRY_X) programmers, because they can no longer charge such high prices as before. But programmers and software companies are in a tiny minority compared to the users of software and business which need to pay for it. The people who benefit from free trade are not just the Indian (or $COUNTRY_Y) programmers, but the Western businesses who are able to get what they need more cheaply, and the consumers who (assuming decent competition) get lower prices.

Free trade is just bringing together those who have something to sell - the Indian programmers - and those who want to buy - American firms needing software written. I don't see any reason for a third group to whine about this just because they were previously able to get away with charging more.

This is especially hypocritical on a site such as Slashdot, where readers depend on a steady supply of computer hardware often built in countries with lower wages than the West. In stories about video cards or RAM I don't think I have _ever_ seen any complaint about free trade reducing the price of the hardware and the lost job opportunties for Americans caused by building it in the Far East. Or think of the constant RIAA stories - stop trying to get in the way of progress, stop trying to prop up a failing business model, you don't automatically have the right to keep on getting money just because you did in the past. I know this is partly the fallacy of assuming Slashdot readers speak with one voice, but it's still worth noting.

India and Open Source

[Anonymous Coward]

I fear that OSS is soon going to force all programming jobs to move to India. Since OSS companies typically make far less profit than real commercial software companies do, they cannot afford to hire decent programmers. So they'll outsource to India, for 10 dollars an hour. Furthermore, by using underhanded tactics like "borrowing" Unix code, they'll beat their commercial competitors -- and the commercial companies will either be forced to open source, or go out of business. I'm not trying to say that OSS is bad, or it should be banned, but some kind of regulation should be put in place to ensure that the majority of software in use is still good old fashioned commercial software.

Outsourcing to India?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever wondered why all the IT jobs are being outsourced to India? Really, I find it hard to believe why people question this growing trend. Is it not obvious?

Indians are by nature better programmers. For one, they never have to deal with type casting erros -- they never forget to caste!

Isn't this what "mobile workforce" means? ;)

[bc90021]

...if the jobs can go to India, it would make sense that the workers can too.

Someone told someone whose job was outsourced to "think outside the box", and look what happened. ;)

Suprised.

[bagel2ooo]

It seems this would be something that would have been up and coming. With so many tech jobs being outsourced to India. Hopefully their booming economy will help give us a run for our money. Historically good things seem to happen when we have competition. At least I hope it will be friendlier and with at least as comparable results as the technology boosts during WWII and The Cold War. :)

Re:the burning question is...

[myowntrueself]

Maybe Northern India, where its not so hot;
but Southern India... where it gets up to 45'C...

My brain, like any normal supercomputer, functions best at low temperature.

Myth busting

[Coryoth]

Good to see that particular myth busted. The reality seems to be that India is simply embracing software development, and given the lower cost of living over there, are making huge gains in that sector - in the end software is just bits, and it's very easy to ship them anywhere in the world.

If you don't fancy working in India, just pick somewhere else with a lower cost of living than the US, and set up shop there. You could try New Zealand or Australia - both fairly western countries with a notably lower cost of living (depending on where you go) than the US. Still not as low as India, but then it would provide less of a language barrier (depending on exactly how uninterpretable you consider the austrialian accent), which many here claim is a significant problem with Indian outsourcing.

So, why not set up your own outsourcing company?

Jedidiah

Re:Myth busting

[be-fan]

Yes there is, if you've got a letter from an Indian company.

Re:Myth busting

[C10H14N2]

New Zealand and Australia are extremely hard to get into for employment. Hell, last time I was in New Zealand was 1988 and it was hard to get in if you were black. *ahem*

Canada requires more than US$30,000 in cash and you must be highly qualified in a professional field to move. Australia and New Zealand last I checked not only require that, but they require an existing job offer to enter--and you are forbidden from changing visa status without returning home. Not many people will be recruited ahead of time. Sure, you can enter as a university student to gain contacts, but how many unemployed computer programmers have enough to pay up front for a AU/NZ degree AND all their living expenses for three years PLUS two return air tickets and six more months living expense so you can go home while the residency visa is granted, at which point you will need a full years' contingency fund that will be checked on arrival or adios muchachos--assuming you haven't been found to break the employment restriction, which in the case of Australia will bar you from ever returning again? Oh, IT'S SOOOO BLOODY EASY. Right.

The fact is, most countries are practically impossible to emmigrate to--especially commonwealth countries from anywhere but another commonwealth country and especially Australia when your departure country is the United States because too many of us have tried to change visa status while in Australia (read: illegal employment). If you're already out of work, the financial restrictions make it a complete fantasy. If you're not out of work, it's such an enormous gamble, why would you try unless you truly wanted to permanently move to the country in question for reasons other than immediate employment?

The H1-B program in the United States was not exactly par for the international course. We let in well over 600,000 people on H1-B in five years. Once I see numbers like India granting over one million residency and employment visas PER YEAR (a roughly equal proportion), I'll buy this argument that the lack of reciprocity is a myth. The same goes for Indian academics. Bangalore University has TWO SEATS per department available for international students--and they have a quarter million students. My university had less than five thousand students and we had that many seats--just for Brazil.

Myth my ass. I would _love_ to go work in a number of countries, not all of them on the economic level of Australia. However, in many countries it often isn't possible at any price--just try to get a work visa for South Africa, for instance. Oh sure, you can get a long-term residency permit if you've got $100,000 in the bank, but you won't be able to seek employment without risking deportation. Most countries are very protective of their labor markets and aren't about to dilute them with Americans who they see as not needing the work nearly as badly. This translates to a cynical lack of reciprocity that basically boils down to "you're American, ergo you're rich, ergo you don't need to take our jobs." Of course, the same voices seem to think we should give up our jobs for them when they show up at our doors.

Re:Myth busting

[Coryoth]

Oh, IT'S SOOOO BLOODY EASY. Right.

I didn't say it was easy - I said it was possible. I think you somewhat overrate the difficulty of emigrating to NZ or Australia - no, it is not trivial, but it is far from impossible, especially if you are skilled and have some cash reserves. It is FAR easier than emigrating to the US from NZ or Australia.

The fact is, most countries are practically impossible to emmigrate to--especially commonwealth countries from anywhere but another commonwealth country and especially Australia when your departure country is the United States because too many of us have tried to change visa status while in Australia (read: illegal employment). If you're already out of work, the financial restrictions make it a complete fantasy. If you're not out of work, it's such an enormous gamble, why would you try unless you truly wanted to permanently move to the country in question for reasons other than immediate employment?

Let's be honest, the US is generally regarded to be the most anally retentive country in the world when it comes to immigration. Consider all those people stuck in green card lotteries. Comparatively Commonwealth countries are reasonably easy going. They expect you to have work lined up, or a high liklehood of finding work, but that's not at all unreasonable. The plan is not to just try and move there - Start looking for work there, apply for every programming job going in your target country(ies), and once you have a job offer your odds of getting visas etc. skyrocket.

I know several people who have successfully emigrated to NZ or Australia, it is nowhere near as difficult as you seem to imply (that is, you imply that it is effectively impossible - which it most definitely is NOT).

Jedidiah.

Re:Myth busting

[C10H14N2]

Anally retentive? More difficult?

You can come to the United States without a long term visa, THEN find work, THEN get your visa status changed. That's pretty NON-anally retentive. Do that in Australia and not only will you find yourself back home, you can never return.

It is the fact that we are so ridiculously permissive and the rest of the world still cries that we're "generally regarded to be the most anally retentive country in the world when it comes to immigration" that pisses us off because practically nowhere else is so open.

Go try to get yourself German citizenship and get back to me on how restrictive the United States is.

Re:Myth busting

[C10H14N2]

We do that as well--it's called a fscking H1-B. We also grant EB-[1-5] visas ex post facto. You also don't have to be a highly skilled professional. You can be a dish washer.

Immigration is difficult anywhere, but to claim that the United States is "the most anally retentive," especially compared to Australia and New Zealand, is just ridiculous. For Christ's sake, we've done blanket amnesties for illegal aliens. Sort of "right, lost track of all of you, can't be bothered, you're legal now." We're about to do it again this year. Oh, how anally retentive.

Re:Myth busting

[KavyBoy]

Sorry, you're wrong on almost all counts. I know because I've done it. I showed up in New Zealand on vacation and had a job offer two weeks later. I went to immigration and walked out with a two-year work visa. I don't even have an IT degree. My wife is here full-term on a work visa that allows her to stay as long as I'm here. A year into it and I'm sitting in my own house in NZ right now. I can apply for long-term residency and probably get it.
Now, it wasn't a cake walk, but it was FAR from difficult. I work with a 20-year-old American that's here same as me, so it's not like I'm a special case. No huge sums of work experince and cash are required.

Unnecessary hype

[Freston Youseff]

It will all balance out in the end.

Can't Hurt

[danaan]

I think anything that gets more people out of their own territories and out into a different part of the world where they have the opportunity to see what it's like in other places can only help in the long run. Sure, a fluid labor force is a "good thing", but people who have experienced different cultures, laws, religions, biases and viewpoints is even more valuable.

India: Foreigner workers welcome*

[rjamestaylor]

*Foreigners desiring to work in India are welcome only if they locate in Andhra Pradesh .
(Source: HotJobs.com)

unlikely

[ThoughtWorker]

Unless someone wants to move to India forever, it doesnt make financial sense. Indian software companies are not going to pay more for an American working in India just because he is American (or whatever country he comes from). And so people moving there will have to work at the going salaries of that market. And with those salaries, you cant retire very comfortably in the United States, for example. So, anyone interested in a permanent move?

Re:unlikely

[JanneM]

Yes, it _is_ better. When applying for a job in the US, will the employer rather have:

a) A guy with extensive experience of Indian culture and business environment, has a working knowlwedge of Hindi (or other major Indian languages), and has shown the drive and independence to relocate to a differenct continent in the first place; or

b) A guy who knows how to handle the deep fryer at McDonalds?

Re:India is not for Me

[kfg]

Whatever you say, Mr. Eau de Rancid Big Mac.

KFG

EE Majors still worth anything?

[boobsea]

I'm about to go onto college. I planned on majoring in CompSci, but I don't want to move aboard to get a job.

Are Electrical Engineers having any similar problems with jobs being outsourced?

Which degree should I get?

Re:EE Majors still worth anything?

[Radical Rad]

I'm basically a master of the Rubix cube

It's Rubic's Cube. Rubic was the name of the man who invented it.

Sorry about your misfortune. I had a similar one in the early nineties when the cold war ended just in time to eliminate almost all demand for my major in Aerospace Engineering. However I disagree with your recommendation that people don't enter EE or CS. If the current lack of demand causes this country to stop producing graduates in those programs then there could never ever be an upswing here in that industry. The manpower wouldn't exist to even try to compete with China and India.

People should study whatever they are interested in and excel at. If that is CS then good for them. We will need them in the future. Keep in mind that all new technologies will intersect with computer technology. If someone invented a transporter or a holodeck tomorrow, you can be damn sure that it would be controlled by computers. Want to outsource those too?

And cheer up, since the economy is starting to warm up again and the H1B visas have dropped back to their pre-2k levels, you may get a chance to use that fancy degree of yours before long.

But is India WillingTo Have Them?

[divvy]

Perhpas people are even willing to move offshore than lose their respect and work at BKs or McDonalds. But is India really willing to take them in?

Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place. Moreover, given India is such a big country, many companies would rather do with a talented Indian who understands the work culture and how businesses are run rather than a foreigner.

Re:But is India WillingTo Have Them?

[tealover]

I would imagine they would be hiring Westerners for precisely the same reasons that American or European companies hire Chinese, Japanese or Indian people: To help them do business with Chinese, Japanese and Indian companies/countries.

There would certainly be an advantage for an Indian company that does business with an American company to have Americans on the inside schooling them on how things work.

Slashdot commune in India?

[stephenisu]

Who's with me?

We start a hippie commune in India, we would be self sufficient in terms of agriculture and utlities, living by LGPL (we do need to be able to make a living) ideals, religion tolerant, and we could try and land a lot of the US outsoursed contracts...

It's no H1B..

[psycho_tinman]

Yes, you may have a job. But you have to reconcile yourself to a lower quality of life in India. It may cost less to live there, but at the same time, there are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there. The standards for judging things are far different from life in the West.

PhD and MSc workers are relatively thick on the ground there, especially in Engineering disciplines. The way things are in India, a lot of people (yes, I have many indian friends) want to move out due to competition from their peers, and difficulty in finding jobs. With this in mind, it's easy to understand why one article openly states that a main reason for hiring Europeans is to "represent their interests" in the home country.

When you go work in India, you may save some cash, for sure.. but if you don't plan on living there for the rest of your life, when you come back to your own country, you will find that the savings don't necessarily translate to much in your local currency.

Does all this sound like I am against people moving to India ? not at all. Just that, as the title of my post suggests, I doubt we're ever going to see a vast inrush of Europeans/Americans working in India at low level positions. Indian companies may be savvy enough to snap up a few qualified and experienced personnel, but for the greater majority of those out of work, India isn't the answer. There is a reason why there are STILL so many Indian workers in Silicon Valley and other technology hubs.

Re:doubt it

[Doomdark]

People aren't leaving high paid jobs in the US to go work for peanuts in India. I'd rather work at Quiznos.

Were you by any chance raised by wolves?

You know, what they get paid in India is relatively speaking most likely very nice amount? Purchasing parity is nice; one can live like a king there... so in some ways they'll be better off there. One can not really afford servants with programmer salary in USA; but can most definitely do that in India. It's not like they go there to starve; quite the opposite. It's even possible that the salaries are getting closer to those of, say, southern Europe ones; and trend is likely to continue. In couple of years high quartile of programmers in India earn more than low quartile in, say, mid-west.

Furthermore, the article did mention that it may be considered a good career move; working in India helps in managing teams in India, even if one works in USA (assuming there'll be managing jobs remaining in USA). So, it can also be thought of as sort of extreme internship. :-)

Re:HOW TO GET H1B FOR INDIA?

[kfg]

Should I speak any Indian languages?

Yes. English. This could prove a significant barrier to Americans.

KFG

not necessarily a good idea.

[tloh]

Won't argue with the job opportunities available in places like India and China, but careers aside, are those really suitable places to live for people who've grown up in western environments like the US?

Last I heard India is still a developing country in many aspects. How may are prepared to share the road with not only automobiles and pedestrians but elephants, sacred bovines, and pack animals which all produce fair shares of manure? Depending on where in india one might relocate to, problems with roaming bands of monkeys and the ocassional wild tiger, rare as they are, would still be unsettling for one who only see beasts in zoos.

Though China has come a long way from the 60s and 70's, My parents still carry lasting scars from the exesses of the Cultural Revolution. There are still many things that should/could not be addressed in public without considerable risks to the speaker and the listeners. Despite the incredable westernization/commercialization of the general population, China is still very ethnocentric in some regards. In short, American $$$$$ == good, dragonboats, home-grown rockets & national astronauts == better. I'm optimistic about the direction China is headed but I highly doubt it is a suitable place for a western job seeker unless (s)he is willing to make considerable lifestyle and mental adjustments.

just my 2 cents.

Re:not necessarily a good idea.

[estergum]

You would expect to move to another country and not make lifestyle and mental adjustments????

The can be surprising cultural differences even between western countries.

I was stunded by the number of beggers in the US when I worked there, in San Francisco at least.
That and the feet police, in NZ its quite common to strop about in bearfeet. I all most got arrested in a mall because I wasn't wearing shoes.

Re:not necessarily a good idea.

[pamri]

Unless you are trying to be another Jim Corbett, you are unlikely to come across even a monkey,forget an elephant or a tiger (???) if you are applying for an executive's job in any of the metro's or urban areas. Of course, cows are there, but nowadays found only in gully areas or residential areas. FYI, I am living in Bangalore for the present and I have contacts with a number of "foreigners", both within my organisation or those visiting it and have yet to find someone who finds the problems you mentioned a reason to leave their jobs here. The person heading the Organisation sharing our office premises has been in Bangalore for around 20+ years and is originally from UK and he not only is v.comfortable, but has mastered the local language quite well. And yes, I am yet to see a sparrow near my house/place of work and come across a cow, only when i take a walk near my house. And economic liberalisation has meant, most upper & middle class attitudes & lifestyles, around the world are more or less the same (ie., good education, a good house in a nice surrounding, good social life, having good spending power,etc.,)

I am not saying, there won't be any problems in relocation, but rather that some of them may be due to stereotypes you have developed(in your case, seeing a wild tiger) and some could be ignored (seeing cows all around), if your job is challenging or satisfactory enough and you could manage to have a decent lifestyle.

Some links:
Myths about Indian Business women
Outside execs who have succeeded in India

Re:not necessarily a good idea.

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Your last paragraph points out something very important. When you leave liberal societies, you are leaving your freedoms. That is the most important thing. Things like standard of living, etc can be adjusted. But freedoms are something else. Most countries, including India, offer few freedoms. India is nothing more than a kleptocracy, with Hindu fundamentalist tendancies. You are talking about a country where kissing on film (movies) is largely banned, all films are censored, etc. Some people have even been thrown in jail (for short periods of time) for releasing "controversial" films. You are also talking about a corrupt government. And so forth.

If you are a conservative, or could care less about criticizing the government, then these governments are fine. But if you say something, watch out.

Same thing with China, except multiply everything I said by 1000x.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

The Indian jobs are for managers

[hcg50a]

From the IHT article:

"...top-level and middle-level executives from the United States and Britain exploring job opportunities in top technology firms. This is in addition to regular middle-level and top-level management positions held by foreigners in multinational companies that have large operations [in India]."

It should be noted that the Indian jobs starting to be filled by foreigners are middle- and upper-level management jobs--not software or hardware engineers!

The question to ask is.

[composer777]

Do we really want this?

Do we want our lives to be traded as commodities to be moved and shuffled about at the whim of the free market? I'm just going to state a few opinions here. Markets should serve people, not the other way around. When freedom of choice (in this case, where to live), is superceded by the freedom of markets we have a problem. Markets are in theory, supposed to maximize freedom. I don't see how forcing a bunch of people to travel across the world just to eat is an example of "freedom". Instead, it's the commoditizing of humanity. I'd be curious, if we were to interview these travelling workers, what their response would be if they were given a choice between working that job over in India vs America. I'd imagine that they would choose to work closer to home. Imagine if we had a choice, any at all. Imagine if democracy (in other words, allowing those who are affected most by a decision, to make that decision) were placed above capitalism. Instead, what we have is the market being rigged to serve a priveledged few, at the expense of everyone else. There is nothing "free" about being forced to transplant oneself every few years just to eat. Freedom from means nothing without freedom to.

Re:But wait!

[WindowlessView]

With $40k you could live like a king for far longer than 2 years in most parts of India. In fact you can live damn well on that $8k salary.

As for coming back in a couple of years, you will have more work experience in your profession combined with multicultural and foreign experience. Very healthy things to have on your resume.

Finally, upon arriving back in the United States you will find that the standard of living will have only dropped further and the cost of living is less than when you left.

Why do you think that only a year ago so many economists - not to mention Federal Reserve Governors - were sitting on a brick about "deflation". Why do you think US interest rates remain so low despite the fact that there is obvious inflation in some of the commodities? Answer: because there is NO bloody inflation in wages, nor has lower rates increased job creation, at least in the US.

Remember, the whole point of this global trade is to even things out. That means the US drops and the developing world rises. Most westerners don't have a clue what is in store for them. They think outsourcing is something that happens to textile and call center workers.

More propoganda!

[ChilyWily]

"Financial Express"?

whois financialexpress.com displays:

Registrant:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (JYXCIDMQMD)
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN

Domain Name: FINANCIALEXPRESS.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (KYYHDIAZUO) hostmaster@bombaybiz.com
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
91-022-22884113 fax: 91-022-22044654

Record expires on 03-Jan-2005.
Record created on 02-Jan-1998.
Database last updated on 31-Jan-2004 23:31:58 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.RILINFO.NET 202.138.96.2
NS2.RILINFO.NET 202.138.103.100

surely their views must be impartial!

The Rise of India?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like every second week there's a story on the rise of India in the global economy and its cost to us in the Western world. But I am worried that our thinking is being dominated by anecdotal evidence as opposed to solid data. I'm no expert but in the last hour I spent looking at the situation I've found some things that give me reason to be skeptical.

For example, if one looks at the ISI Highly Cited website we see that researchers from Western economies still dominate research journals. Suggesting that these countries will countinue to lead the world in technological development in the near future. This of course probably means jobs for those in the industry of researching and developing technology. Just how great the desparity is, is illustrated with a few numbers:

United States - 2830 highly cited researchers
United Kingdom - 306 highly cited researchers
Australia/New Zealand - 78 highly cited researchers
Switzerland - 60 highly cited researchers
India - 8 highly cited researchers
China - 5 highly cited researchers

Also if we look at the CIA World Fact Book we see Western Economies still appear to have a significantly greater GDP per capita which means there is more money to invest in industry:

United States - $36,300
Switzerland - $32,000
Australia - $26,900
United Kingdom - $25,500
China - $4,700
India - $2,600

Indeed, I can't help but feel that we're overemphasizing India. That they are really the IT sweat-shops of the 21st century and while they may be master code-monkeys the chief beneficiaries of their work will be the Western world. Who will get cheap labor and services but still carry out most of the research, design, marketing and retail. This article mentions specifically significantly reduced operating costs and 500,000 jobs moving overseas, but the latter statistic is useless unless we know how many other jobs are (or are not) going to crop up to replace them and where. My post isn't really an informed opinion on the matter, but what I hope it will do is encourage others to think critically about the situation instead of getting tied up in the tsunami of pessimistic articles posted on Slashdot.

It has to balance out eventually

[MrMrBen]

Think about it. Let's imagine that it gets to the point that there are so few good jobs in the U.S., that large numbers of Americans decide to emigate to India to get a call center job answering tech support questions for Dell customers in the U.S. Clearly that couldn't happen, because there wouldn't be anyone left in the U.S. who could afford a Dell at U.S. prices anymore. Before any significant number of worker emigrate to India for jobs, the U.S. economy would have to drop to India's level. If the only jobs in the U.S. were at McDonald's, then the U.S. would no longer be a rich country, and we wouldn't be able to afford to outsorce jobs to India anymore.

India is creating jobs in the US

[spanklin]

Check this article out. An Indian manufacturing company built a factory in Virginia.

Apparently, the VA location beat out Mexico to land the factory. No joke.

Good for recent college grads

[zpiderz]

I for one, know a few people (me included) that are open to jobs abroad after college. Right after college is a great time to do something new and interesting in a new environment. In a decade, having global experience will be a very valuable trait.

As for the retirement aspect or moving back to the U.S. In a decade or two India's economy will grow big enough to match many of those around the world.

Many people think India is 3rd world, but from what I've heard about their big cities, they're pretty much exactly like our metropolitan hubs. Yeah, the rest of the country needs to catch up, but don't you think Wyoming needs to catch up the rest of the U.S. too?

Re:Yeah but

[dev11]

In some ways, we (meaning Americans) may actually have some responsibility in this. Creating the Internet, and more importantly, making it cheap and easy to get connected, makes anything that can be done at a distance, such as writing software, economically viable. In some sense, we may have done things too well and put ourselves out of a job.

I do programming for a living, and quite honestly, most anyone with the proper training can do most common programming tasks. There certainly are those gifted, top 10 percent programmers (which I am not one, I freely admit), but most programming is not the glamour projects, and is often tedious and boring. It seems that a lot of the jobs that are being outsourced are of this type. Programming has become a commodity in a lot of respects, and is awarded to the lowest bidder.

This is not something new. Many other industries that were American dominated at one time, such as steel, have had similar things happen. Software is just the latest. And why should the rest of the world be excluded if they can do the job more economically? Being an American doesn't make me any better a programmer, or any more deserving than anyone else.

Who gives a fuck about IT jobs anymore?

[MSBob]

I worked as developer in this industry for over eight years. But there is only so much humiliaton and abuse and disregard that one can endure in a career. What the fuck is a softwae developer's career worth anyway? We are always the bottom of the corporate totem pole, we are treated as nerds and misfits and now we don't even have a good paycheck or any sense of security. Fuck that I say. You can kiss my J2EE development ass.

I'm switching careers to trades. It isn't that hard and most of us can work with our hands and will take twenty seconds instead of twenty minutes to calculate how much tile is needed for the bathroom walls. I've already done a few tiling projects on the side and now I'm getting my electrician's papers. Soon I'll be able to cover everything from finishing carpentry to wiring and plumbing. Pays just as well as the office job did at peak if you're willing to work hard. Last month I netted $5,000CAD (I live north of the border) which is a very healthy sum here especially that that's AFTER TAX money. And wehn was the last time you heard of a plumber being outsourced to India? That's right my friedns, when that pipe bursts in your CEO's house even the 20,000 Indians he's hired arent gonna be much use at 15,000 miles away.

So my friends, next time you hear that your job is getting shipped to India tell your manager that she can kiss your ass goodbye because it's a great opportunity to give up your (most likely) shitty job and do something useful instead. You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job.

Oh and in the evening (that's right trade jobs run 9 to 5 not 8 to midnight, imagine that!) when you get home there is no reason not to fire up the computer and do some open source coding, for fun, without the stresss and aggravation of a PHB meddling with good things and making stupid suggestions. Write some great software and donate it to Open Source. Even Indians can't compete with that pricing model :-)

So my friends this is our new reality we all have to face. We all love programming but it doesn't make us money anymore. It started out as a hobby (for most of us) and now is the time it went back to being a hobby. For a living however, we must do something more lucrative that can't be outsourced by the next bunch of stuffed shirts. Like trades.

Re:Who gives a fuck about IT jobs anymore?

[vacuum_tuber]

MSBob wrote:

"...You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job."

I agree. After 40 years of very serious software development (OS internals, languages, macro processors, protocols, device drivers, machine and peripheral emulators -- not JavaShit or Visual Barfic), I am changing careers because it seems no one wants actual, real software designers/developers anymore. So I say, "Screw 'em all!"

I got a hint of what was to come in 1990 when I moved into this house and had cable hooked up. The installer seemed too bright, too articulate. We talked. He was a degreed electronic engineer who used to design the "sleds" that give those thigh-mounted data entry devices we see being used by inventory takers their specific functions and behaviors. He quit and became a cable TV installer because of low pay, long hours, abuse and PHBs. He never looked back. In his new job he had variety every day, was outside a lot in fresh air and sunshine, was never seriously put out, and never took his job home with him.

I've never been ideologically anti-corporate, but it's now clear to me that corporate America is committing suicide. I no longer care. I'll donate the bullet or the razor or the match, however they want to put themselves out of their misery.

Re:How does 50%+ income tax rub ya?

[vistic]

I'm fine with high income tax if somethings done with it.

In many of those countries the result is less of a divide between rich and poor... most people are distinctly middle class, which is almost the only class. And their government takes care of everyone nicely and provides for its citizens. It's big government without being overbearing and infringing on its citizens liberties. I personally think countries like Denmark are role models for the rest of the world these days.

It's going to happen eventually

[foo12]

My company just asked me to relocate to the Philippines for a 1-2 years (minimum) so they have someone on-site at all times. Now keep in mind my situation is different from most people in the tech industry --- I'm keeping my hourly wage, and the company is covering my housing expenses (I would have a 3-bedroom villa in a gated community, a maid, a security guard and a driver --- all that is costing them less than US$1000/month). So the deal is sweeter than moving to India, but the principles are the same.

Right now I'm in the middle of my first trip to the Philippines and it's been... a trip to say the least. Everything about this experience has been positive, largely because Filipinos seem, as a whole, a happy, gregarious people.

Everyone here speaks at least some English and anyone with an office job speaks exceptional English. The only place we ever stumble is on phrases and idioms. (Quite honestly English here is on average better than in the states --- McDonald's employees speak better English than they do in the US)

Food is American friendly... if you absolutely must, there's McDonalds, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. but the local food is also quite good. Markets and grocery stores are fine, and you can certainly muster American fare from what you can find there. And everything is cheap --- I ate for about $3/day last week and, last night, splurged and bought a $10 meal at a resort restaraunt.

After that I went out to one of the hottest clubs in the city and spent about $30 on cover charge, a couple drinks for myself, and a round for 15 of my coworkers. (When I say coworkers I mean "very intelligent, funny, cute, single women all under 30" we'll leave it at that.)

My advice -- don't reject the idea of moving overseas outright. Regardless if you come back ahead or not, it's going to be a great life experience and be a nice item on your resume.