Slashdot Mirror
India Becoming a Major Hub for Western Job Seekers
MaximusTheGreat writes: "IHT and Financial Express report that many qualified Western professionals are moving to India for jobs. Two of the most common reasons mentioned are adding the Indian experience to the CV and search of better opportunities in a booming Indian economy. According to a Mumbai based head hunting firm, "A lot of the highly qualified talent has traditionally been mobile and attracted to centers of excellence globally. This was true of the US in the early 80s when top flight talent from India migrated in search of better opportunities. Today, the same is happening to economies such as India and China" This should also bust the myth that foreigners are not allowed work in India."
It seems this would be something that would have been up and coming. With so many tech jobs being outsourced to India. Hopefully their booming economy will help give us a run for our money. Historically good things seem to happen when we have competition. At least I hope it will be friendlier and with at least as comparable results as the technology boosts during WWII and The Cold War. :)
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
I think anything that gets more people out of their own territories and out into a different part of the world where they have the opportunity to see what it's like in other places can only help in the long run. Sure, a fluid labor force is a "good thing", but people who have experienced different cultures, laws, religions, biases and viewpoints is even more valuable.
Unless someone wants to move to India forever, it doesnt make financial sense. Indian software companies are not going to pay more for an American working in India just because he is American (or whatever country he comes from). And so people moving there will have to work at the going salaries of that market. And with those salaries, you cant retire very comfortably in the United States, for example. So, anyone interested in a permanent move?
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place. Moreover, given India is such a big country, many companies would rather do with a talented Indian who understands the work culture and how businesses are run rather than a foreigner.
Who's with me?
We start a hippie commune in India, we would be self sufficient in terms of agriculture and utlities, living by LGPL (we do need to be able to make a living) ideals, religion tolerant, and we could try and land a lot of the US outsoursed contracts...
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
Yes, you may have a job. But you have to reconcile yourself to a lower quality of life in India. It may cost less to live there, but at the same time, there are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there. The standards for judging things are far different from life in the West.
PhD and MSc workers are relatively thick on the ground there, especially in Engineering disciplines. The way things are in India, a lot of people (yes, I have many indian friends) want to move out due to competition from their peers, and difficulty in finding jobs. With this in mind, it's easy to understand why one article openly states that a main reason for hiring Europeans is to "represent their interests" in the home country.
When you go work in India, you may save some cash, for sure.. but if you don't plan on living there for the rest of your life, when you come back to your own country, you will find that the savings don't necessarily translate to much in your local currency.
Does all this sound like I am against people moving to India ? not at all. Just that, as the title of my post suggests, I doubt we're ever going to see a vast inrush of Europeans/Americans working in India at low level positions. Indian companies may be savvy enough to snap up a few qualified and experienced personnel, but for the greater majority of those out of work, India isn't the answer. There is a reason why there are STILL so many Indian workers in Silicon Valley and other technology hubs.
Should I speak any Indian languages?
Yes. English. This could prove a significant barrier to Americans.
KFG
Won't argue with the job opportunities available in places like India and China, but careers aside, are those really suitable places to live for people who've grown up in western environments like the US?
Last I heard India is still a developing country in many aspects. How may are prepared to share the road with not only automobiles and pedestrians but elephants, sacred bovines, and pack animals which all produce fair shares of manure? Depending on where in india one might relocate to, problems with roaming bands of monkeys and the ocassional wild tiger, rare as they are, would still be unsettling for one who only see beasts in zoos.
Though China has come a long way from the 60s and 70's, My parents still carry lasting scars from the exesses of the Cultural Revolution. There are still many things that should/could not be addressed in public without considerable risks to the speaker and the listeners. Despite the incredable westernization/commercialization of the general population, China is still very ethnocentric in some regards. In short, American $$$$$ == good, dragonboats, home-grown rockets & national astronauts == better. I'm optimistic about the direction China is headed but I highly doubt it is a suitable place for a western job seeker unless (s)he is willing to make considerable lifestyle and mental adjustments.
just my 2 cents.
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
From ny experience, 20 years ago inflation in Mexico was running about 125% a year, but everything seemed to remain affordable. Now with NAFTA, inflation may be down, but the prices are almost as high as in the states, but the wages are nowhere near that. Prices still do climb, but wages appears stagnant. Gasoline, electricity, milk, toilet paper, etc. are actually more expensive than in the states. I don't know how the people tolerate it. But they do.
What?
Do we really want this?
Do we want our lives to be traded as commodities to be moved and shuffled about at the whim of the free market? I'm just going to state a few opinions here. Markets should serve people, not the other way around. When freedom of choice (in this case, where to live), is superceded by the freedom of markets we have a problem. Markets are in theory, supposed to maximize freedom. I don't see how forcing a bunch of people to travel across the world just to eat is an example of "freedom". Instead, it's the commoditizing of humanity. I'd be curious, if we were to interview these travelling workers, what their response would be if they were given a choice between working that job over in India vs America. I'd imagine that they would choose to work closer to home. Imagine if we had a choice, any at all. Imagine if democracy (in other words, allowing those who are affected most by a decision, to make that decision) were placed above capitalism. Instead, what we have is the market being rigged to serve a priveledged few, at the expense of everyone else. There is nothing "free" about being forced to transplant oneself every few years just to eat. Freedom from means nothing without freedom to.
Just goes to show the /. community is no different than any other community. We're just as greedy and racist as the rest of the world. Generally speaking, of course. Pointing that out will get me modded down, but as we say, "Ni modo".
What?
You can sleep well at night knowing if you are a crack addict the government will pay your way through rehab
this is obviously a Bad Idea. it should be the goal of the government to ensure there are as many untreated crack heads roaming around the streets as possible.
you are going to pay for society's drug problems one way or another. you can either pony up some tax to get crack heads off the street, into rehab and turn them into productive citizens... or you can ignore the problem and pay in lost economic productivity, increased policing costs and in one lump cash payment when that untreated crack head sticks you up for a fix.
We keep throwing away American tax dollars at foreign nations only to be the most hated country in the world
are you counting the cost of cluster bombs as a foreign aid expense?
seriously. do you know who the single biggest recipient of us foreign aid is? israel. thirty per cent of foreign aid goes to that nation - and they are not you enemy.
of course, the us doesn't hand out foreign aid for free. packages often come with spending restrictions that are geared towards ingratiating the recipient country to the donor and then there are saps - structural adjustment policies - whereby aid is conditional upon economic reforms in the recipient country that are beneficial to the us corporate sector.
hint: learn something about how foreign aid works and what it does before commenting on it.
They should raise their nations taxes by several billion a year and take over babbysiting the rest of the world then
all the countries of the world that take part in un peacekeeping missions find your suggestion ludicrous and insulting.
2 1337 4 u!
"Financial Express"?
whois financialexpress.com displays:
Registrant:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (JYXCIDMQMD)
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
Domain Name: FINANCIALEXPRESS.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (KYYHDIAZUO) hostmaster@bombaybiz.com
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
91-022-22884113 fax: 91-022-22044654
Record expires on 03-Jan-2005.
Record created on 02-Jan-1998.
Database last updated on 31-Jan-2004 23:31:58 EST.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.RILINFO.NET 202.138.96.2
NS2.RILINFO.NET 202.138.103.100
surely their views must be impartial!
It seems like every second week there's a story on the rise of India in the global economy and its cost to us in the Western world. But I am worried that our thinking is being dominated by anecdotal evidence as opposed to solid data. I'm no expert but in the last hour I spent looking at the situation I've found some things that give me reason to be skeptical.
For example, if one looks at the ISI Highly Cited website we see that researchers from Western economies still dominate research journals. Suggesting that these countries will countinue to lead the world in technological development in the near future. This of course probably means jobs for those in the industry of researching and developing technology. Just how great the desparity is, is illustrated with a few numbers:
United States - 2830 highly cited researchers
United Kingdom - 306 highly cited researchers
Australia/New Zealand - 78 highly cited researchers
Switzerland - 60 highly cited researchers
India - 8 highly cited researchers
China - 5 highly cited researchers
Also if we look at the CIA World Fact Book we see Western Economies still appear to have a significantly greater GDP per capita which means there is more money to invest in industry:
United States - $36,300
Switzerland - $32,000
Australia - $26,900
United Kingdom - $25,500
China - $4,700
India - $2,600
Indeed, I can't help but feel that we're overemphasizing India. That they are really the IT sweat-shops of the 21st century and while they may be master code-monkeys the chief beneficiaries of their work will be the Western world. Who will get cheap labor and services but still carry out most of the research, design, marketing and retail. This article mentions specifically significantly reduced operating costs and 500,000 jobs moving overseas, but the latter statistic is useless unless we know how many other jobs are (or are not) going to crop up to replace them and where. My post isn't really an informed opinion on the matter, but what I hope it will do is encourage others to think critically about the situation instead of getting tied up in the tsunami of pessimistic articles posted on Slashdot.
Think about it. Let's imagine that it gets to the point that there are so few good jobs in the U.S., that large numbers of Americans decide to emigate to India to get a call center job answering tech support questions for Dell customers in the U.S. Clearly that couldn't happen, because there wouldn't be anyone left in the U.S. who could afford a Dell at U.S. prices anymore. Before any significant number of worker emigrate to India for jobs, the U.S. economy would have to drop to India's level. If the only jobs in the U.S. were at McDonald's, then the U.S. would no longer be a rich country, and we wouldn't be able to afford to outsorce jobs to India anymore.
I'm switching careers to trades. It isn't that hard and most of us can work with our hands and will take twenty seconds instead of twenty minutes to calculate how much tile is needed for the bathroom walls. I've already done a few tiling projects on the side and now I'm getting my electrician's papers. Soon I'll be able to cover everything from finishing carpentry to wiring and plumbing. Pays just as well as the office job did at peak if you're willing to work hard. Last month I netted $5,000CAD (I live north of the border) which is a very healthy sum here especially that that's AFTER TAX money. And wehn was the last time you heard of a plumber being outsourced to India? That's right my friedns, when that pipe bursts in your CEO's house even the 20,000 Indians he's hired arent gonna be much use at 15,000 miles away.
So my friends, next time you hear that your job is getting shipped to India tell your manager that she can kiss your ass goodbye because it's a great opportunity to give up your (most likely) shitty job and do something useful instead. You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job.
Oh and in the evening (that's right trade jobs run 9 to 5 not 8 to midnight, imagine that!) when you get home there is no reason not to fire up the computer and do some open source coding, for fun, without the stresss and aggravation of a PHB meddling with good things and making stupid suggestions. Write some great software and donate it to Open Source. Even Indians can't compete with that pricing model :-)
So my friends this is our new reality we all have to face. We all love programming but it doesn't make us money anymore. It started out as a hobby (for most of us) and now is the time it went back to being a hobby. For a living however, we must do something more lucrative that can't be outsourced by the next bunch of stuffed shirts. Like trades.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Sorry, you're wrong on almost all counts. I know because I've done it. I showed up in New Zealand on vacation and had a job offer two weeks later. I went to immigration and walked out with a two-year work visa. I don't even have an IT degree. My wife is here full-term on a work visa that allows her to stay as long as I'm here. A year into it and I'm sitting in my own house in NZ right now. I can apply for long-term residency and probably get it.
Now, it wasn't a cake walk, but it was FAR from difficult. I work with a 20-year-old American that's here same as me, so it's not like I'm a special case. No huge sums of work experince and cash are required.
Hmm... just calculated mine... 38.5% (wow, I never realized it was this much).
(this doesn't include 401K, etc., just federal, state, city, medicare, blah blah blah blah, and you end up with very little of the actual `money').
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
My company just asked me to relocate to the Philippines for a 1-2 years (minimum) so they have someone on-site at all times. Now keep in mind my situation is different from most people in the tech industry --- I'm keeping my hourly wage, and the company is covering my housing expenses (I would have a 3-bedroom villa in a gated community, a maid, a security guard and a driver --- all that is costing them less than US$1000/month). So the deal is sweeter than moving to India, but the principles are the same.
Right now I'm in the middle of my first trip to the Philippines and it's been... a trip to say the least. Everything about this experience has been positive, largely because Filipinos seem, as a whole, a happy, gregarious people.
Everyone here speaks at least some English and anyone with an office job speaks exceptional English. The only place we ever stumble is on phrases and idioms. (Quite honestly English here is on average better than in the states --- McDonald's employees speak better English than they do in the US)
Food is American friendly... if you absolutely must, there's McDonalds, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. but the local food is also quite good. Markets and grocery stores are fine, and you can certainly muster American fare from what you can find there. And everything is cheap --- I ate for about $3/day last week and, last night, splurged and bought a $10 meal at a resort restaraunt.
After that I went out to one of the hottest clubs in the city and spent about $30 on cover charge, a couple drinks for myself, and a round for 15 of my coworkers. (When I say coworkers I mean "very intelligent, funny, cute, single women all under 30" we'll leave it at that.)
My advice -- don't reject the idea of moving overseas outright. Regardless if you come back ahead or not, it's going to be a great life experience and be a nice item on your resume.
The point is, Germany went largely unchallenged for 5 years before the US got involved.
Way to fucking rewrite history. Britain, Frace, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and others were all actively at war with Germany way before the US got reluctantly dragged into the war in Europe. Britain, Australia and New Zealand also fought against Japan in Asia and the Pacific Rim.
Please, pick up a book or something every once in a while. The world doesn't revolve around the US.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg