Slashdot Mirror
India Becoming a Major Hub for Western Job Seekers
MaximusTheGreat writes: "IHT and Financial Express report that many qualified Western professionals are moving to India for jobs. Two of the most common reasons mentioned are adding the Indian experience to the CV and search of better opportunities in a booming Indian economy. According to a Mumbai based head hunting firm, "A lot of the highly qualified talent has traditionally been mobile and attracted to centers of excellence globally. This was true of the US in the early 80s when top flight talent from India migrated in search of better opportunities. Today, the same is happening to economies such as India and China" This should also bust the myth that foreigners are not allowed work in India."
The task of getting first post has been outsourced to India.
This is why I got out of computer science to be an electrical engineer. My advisor always encouraged me to study abroad in India because that's where everything is shifting. I did not want to do this. I hope that this trend does not continue :(
Hey, free movement of labor is required for fairness of free movement of capital.
Depending on what sort of world you want, I guess.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I fear that OSS is soon going to force all programming jobs to move to India. Since OSS companies typically make far less profit than real commercial software companies do, they cannot afford to hire decent programmers. So they'll outsource to India, for 10 dollars an hour. Furthermore, by using underhanded tactics like "borrowing" Unix code, they'll beat their commercial competitors -- and the commercial companies will either be forced to open source, or go out of business. I'm not trying to say that OSS is bad, or it should be banned, but some kind of regulation should be put in place to ensure that the majority of software in use is still good old fashioned commercial software.
Have you ever wondered why all the IT jobs are being outsourced to India? Really, I find it hard to believe why people question this growing trend. Is it not obvious?
Indians are by nature better programmers. For one, they never have to deal with type casting erros -- they never forget to caste!
...if the jobs can go to India, it would make sense that the workers can too.
;)
Someone told someone whose job was outsourced to "think outside the box", and look what happened.
libertarianswag.com
It seems this would be something that would have been up and coming. With so many tech jobs being outsourced to India. Hopefully their booming economy will help give us a run for our money. Historically good things seem to happen when we have competition. At least I hope it will be friendlier and with at least as comparable results as the technology boosts during WWII and The Cold War. :)
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
Maybe Northern India, where its not so hot;
but Southern India... where it gets up to 45'C...
My brain, like any normal supercomputer, functions best at low temperature.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Good to see that particular myth busted. The reality seems to be that India is simply embracing software development, and given the lower cost of living over there, are making huge gains in that sector - in the end software is just bits, and it's very easy to ship them anywhere in the world.
If you don't fancy working in India, just pick somewhere else with a lower cost of living than the US, and set up shop there. You could try New Zealand or Australia - both fairly western countries with a notably lower cost of living (depending on where you go) than the US. Still not as low as India, but then it would provide less of a language barrier (depending on exactly how uninterpretable you consider the austrialian accent), which many here claim is a significant problem with Indian outsourcing.
So, why not set up your own outsourcing company?
Jedidiah
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
It will all balance out in the end.
I think anything that gets more people out of their own territories and out into a different part of the world where they have the opportunity to see what it's like in other places can only help in the long run. Sure, a fluid labor force is a "good thing", but people who have experienced different cultures, laws, religions, biases and viewpoints is even more valuable.
What needs to be done to get job visa in India? Should I post my resume in Indian newspaper? Will my 10 years of experience in US count? Should I speak any Indian languages?
*Foreigners desiring to work in India are welcome only if they locate in Andhra Pradesh .
(Source: HotJobs.com)
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Unless someone wants to move to India forever, it doesnt make financial sense. Indian software companies are not going to pay more for an American working in India just because he is American (or whatever country he comes from). And so people moving there will have to work at the going salaries of that market. And with those salaries, you cant retire very comfortably in the United States, for example. So, anyone interested in a permanent move?
Whatever you say, Mr. Eau de Rancid Big Mac.
KFG
I'm about to go onto college. I planned on majoring in CompSci, but I don't want to move aboard to get a job.
Are Electrical Engineers having any similar problems with jobs being outsourced?
Which degree should I get?
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place. Moreover, given India is such a big country, many companies would rather do with a talented Indian who understands the work culture and how businesses are run rather than a foreigner.
This is pretty clearly a PR puff piece. An obvious part of the trend of the Indian IT lobby to stem the growing US backlash.
This is just my opinion and all, but I don't think people from the US should have to go to India in order to chase jobs that emigrated from here.
I know that's against the principles of free trade and all, but we invented this technology, we are the ones who built it, we supported it, and now the corporations we built it for are selling our jobs for pennies on the dollar to third world countries.
What I'm doing is changing my field, after around 14 years, because the way technical people in this country have been treated is utterly reprehensible.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Who's with me?
We start a hippie commune in India, we would be self sufficient in terms of agriculture and utlities, living by LGPL (we do need to be able to make a living) ideals, religion tolerant, and we could try and land a lot of the US outsoursed contracts...
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
Yes, you may have a job. But you have to reconcile yourself to a lower quality of life in India. It may cost less to live there, but at the same time, there are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there. The standards for judging things are far different from life in the West.
PhD and MSc workers are relatively thick on the ground there, especially in Engineering disciplines. The way things are in India, a lot of people (yes, I have many indian friends) want to move out due to competition from their peers, and difficulty in finding jobs. With this in mind, it's easy to understand why one article openly states that a main reason for hiring Europeans is to "represent their interests" in the home country.
When you go work in India, you may save some cash, for sure.. but if you don't plan on living there for the rest of your life, when you come back to your own country, you will find that the savings don't necessarily translate to much in your local currency.
Does all this sound like I am against people moving to India ? not at all. Just that, as the title of my post suggests, I doubt we're ever going to see a vast inrush of Europeans/Americans working in India at low level positions. Indian companies may be savvy enough to snap up a few qualified and experienced personnel, but for the greater majority of those out of work, India isn't the answer. There is a reason why there are STILL so many Indian workers in Silicon Valley and other technology hubs.
Were you by any chance raised by wolves?
You know, what they get paid in India is relatively speaking most likely very nice amount? Purchasing parity is nice; one can live like a king there... so in some ways they'll be better off there. One can not really afford servants with programmer salary in USA; but can most definitely do that in India. It's not like they go there to starve; quite the opposite. It's even possible that the salaries are getting closer to those of, say, southern Europe ones; and trend is likely to continue. In couple of years high quartile of programmers in India earn more than low quartile in, say, mid-west.
Furthermore, the article did mention that it may be considered a good career move; working in India helps in managing teams in India, even if one works in USA (assuming there'll be managing jobs remaining in USA). So, it can also be thought of as sort of extreme internship. :-)
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
What happens when you want to move back to the UK? You've spend a better part of your best wage-earning years making Indian wages. When you sell your Indian home and convert it to pounds, what kind of home can you buy when you move back to London?
I can see people working in India for very short periods of time, but moving from a 1st world nation to a 2nd or 3rd world nation (at least in terms of wages) does not have the same benefits as the reverse situation does.
For now, I take articles like this as anecdotal at best. Certainly it is not indicative of a viable trend for the majority of people.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Won't argue with the job opportunities available in places like India and China, but careers aside, are those really suitable places to live for people who've grown up in western environments like the US?
Last I heard India is still a developing country in many aspects. How may are prepared to share the road with not only automobiles and pedestrians but elephants, sacred bovines, and pack animals which all produce fair shares of manure? Depending on where in india one might relocate to, problems with roaming bands of monkeys and the ocassional wild tiger, rare as they are, would still be unsettling for one who only see beasts in zoos.
Though China has come a long way from the 60s and 70's, My parents still carry lasting scars from the exesses of the Cultural Revolution. There are still many things that should/could not be addressed in public without considerable risks to the speaker and the listeners. Despite the incredable westernization/commercialization of the general population, China is still very ethnocentric in some regards. In short, American $$$$$ == good, dragonboats, home-grown rockets & national astronauts == better. I'm optimistic about the direction China is headed but I highly doubt it is a suitable place for a western job seeker unless (s)he is willing to make considerable lifestyle and mental adjustments.
just my 2 cents.
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
It should be noted that the Indian jobs starting to be filled by foreigners are middle- and upper-level management jobs--not software or hardware engineers!
HCG 50a = 2MASX J11170638+5455016
11h17m06.4s +54d55m02s
Do we really want this?
Do we want our lives to be traded as commodities to be moved and shuffled about at the whim of the free market? I'm just going to state a few opinions here. Markets should serve people, not the other way around. When freedom of choice (in this case, where to live), is superceded by the freedom of markets we have a problem. Markets are in theory, supposed to maximize freedom. I don't see how forcing a bunch of people to travel across the world just to eat is an example of "freedom". Instead, it's the commoditizing of humanity. I'd be curious, if we were to interview these travelling workers, what their response would be if they were given a choice between working that job over in India vs America. I'd imagine that they would choose to work closer to home. Imagine if we had a choice, any at all. Imagine if democracy (in other words, allowing those who are affected most by a decision, to make that decision) were placed above capitalism. Instead, what we have is the market being rigged to serve a priveledged few, at the expense of everyone else. There is nothing "free" about being forced to transplant oneself every few years just to eat. Freedom from means nothing without freedom to.
Calafornia isn't the only place tech jobs are available, they it certianly is one of the most expensive. There are plenty of other states with tech industries, many on the rise, where cost of living is much lower. Now with this generally comes lower pay, but it tends to balance out.
But isn't the current trend to move the offshore jobs from India to even crappier places in South America? It's not like the people in a lot of these jobs actually have to speak English, that's just a nicety. As long as a few local management are bilingual everything generally works out. Sure, India will keep the tech support jobs. Until computer voice recognition can run down the scripts then tell you it's someone else's fault.
Top that with the cost of relocation, the fact that the Indian market already provides fairly ample amounts of trained labor, and the fact that as an American you are going to be at a significant disadvantage trying to work within the social framework there, and you've got a very unattractive option. Oh, and don't forget that you won't be earning enough to ever move back and not be pitifully poor.
I think using my master's degree to shill cars for a living in the States sounds a tad better.
With $40k you could live like a king for far longer than 2 years in most parts of India. In fact you can live damn well on that $8k salary.
As for coming back in a couple of years, you will have more work experience in your profession combined with multicultural and foreign experience. Very healthy things to have on your resume.
Finally, upon arriving back in the United States you will find that the standard of living will have only dropped further and the cost of living is less than when you left.
Why do you think that only a year ago so many economists - not to mention Federal Reserve Governors - were sitting on a brick about "deflation". Why do you think US interest rates remain so low despite the fact that there is obvious inflation in some of the commodities? Answer: because there is NO bloody inflation in wages, nor has lower rates increased job creation, at least in the US.
Remember, the whole point of this global trade is to even things out. That means the US drops and the developing world rises. Most westerners don't have a clue what is in store for them. They think outsourcing is something that happens to textile and call center workers.
Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
An economist could explain it better, but to me it seems that cost of living and standard of living aren't directly correlated. (I know it's not exactly what you're saying, but it's worth adding.) Lower quality of living may be true for India, but it isn't true everywhere. If it was, I might be able to travel from New Zealand to the US without paying twice as much for everything once I arrived.
In short, we have a relatively western culture here. There's good employment doing information-sector types of work, good quality education (although there's now a student loan scheme to get people through higher education), relatively good health care (probably better than the US if what I hear is correct), and so on.
It's expensive to travel away from here considering a good starting IT wage might be equivalent to about US$30,000, and IT wages are on the high side. It would have been much less than that a year ago, except US currency is doing so much worse on international markets at the moment. That starting amount will get you a reasonable quality of life here, though.
The lower cost of living and higher quality of education and living is one of the big reasons that, for example, it was so economical for Newline to have the Lord of the Rings films made here, because it's cheap yet there's enough of a technical infrastructure to support it. The other big export industry is tourism, because it's comparitively so cheap for people from high cost-of-living countries to travel here.
If concern about quality of life is more of an issue than saving up money to take back to the US, then there are other options around the world besides India.
Nuf sed
Table-ized A.I.
"Financial Express"?
whois financialexpress.com displays:
Registrant:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (JYXCIDMQMD)
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
Domain Name: FINANCIALEXPRESS.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
The Indian Express Online Media Ltd (KYYHDIAZUO) hostmaster@bombaybiz.com
Express Towers, 2nd Floor,
Nariman Point
Mumbai, Maharashtra 400021
IN
91-022-22884113 fax: 91-022-22044654
Record expires on 03-Jan-2005.
Record created on 02-Jan-1998.
Database last updated on 31-Jan-2004 23:31:58 EST.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.RILINFO.NET 202.138.96.2
NS2.RILINFO.NET 202.138.103.100
surely their views must be impartial!
It seems like every second week there's a story on the rise of India in the global economy and its cost to us in the Western world. But I am worried that our thinking is being dominated by anecdotal evidence as opposed to solid data. I'm no expert but in the last hour I spent looking at the situation I've found some things that give me reason to be skeptical.
For example, if one looks at the ISI Highly Cited website we see that researchers from Western economies still dominate research journals. Suggesting that these countries will countinue to lead the world in technological development in the near future. This of course probably means jobs for those in the industry of researching and developing technology. Just how great the desparity is, is illustrated with a few numbers:
United States - 2830 highly cited researchers
United Kingdom - 306 highly cited researchers
Australia/New Zealand - 78 highly cited researchers
Switzerland - 60 highly cited researchers
India - 8 highly cited researchers
China - 5 highly cited researchers
Also if we look at the CIA World Fact Book we see Western Economies still appear to have a significantly greater GDP per capita which means there is more money to invest in industry:
United States - $36,300
Switzerland - $32,000
Australia - $26,900
United Kingdom - $25,500
China - $4,700
India - $2,600
Indeed, I can't help but feel that we're overemphasizing India. That they are really the IT sweat-shops of the 21st century and while they may be master code-monkeys the chief beneficiaries of their work will be the Western world. Who will get cheap labor and services but still carry out most of the research, design, marketing and retail. This article mentions specifically significantly reduced operating costs and 500,000 jobs moving overseas, but the latter statistic is useless unless we know how many other jobs are (or are not) going to crop up to replace them and where. My post isn't really an informed opinion on the matter, but what I hope it will do is encourage others to think critically about the situation instead of getting tied up in the tsunami of pessimistic articles posted on Slashdot.
Its a book.
Remarkably prophetic in many ways.
I'd recommend it in light of this thread.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Think about it. Let's imagine that it gets to the point that there are so few good jobs in the U.S., that large numbers of Americans decide to emigate to India to get a call center job answering tech support questions for Dell customers in the U.S. Clearly that couldn't happen, because there wouldn't be anyone left in the U.S. who could afford a Dell at U.S. prices anymore. Before any significant number of worker emigrate to India for jobs, the U.S. economy would have to drop to India's level. If the only jobs in the U.S. were at McDonald's, then the U.S. would no longer be a rich country, and we wouldn't be able to afford to outsorce jobs to India anymore.
Apparently, the VA location beat out Mexico to land the factory. No joke.
I for one, know a few people (me included) that are open to jobs abroad after college. Right after college is a great time to do something new and interesting in a new environment. In a decade, having global experience will be a very valuable trait.
As for the retirement aspect or moving back to the U.S. In a decade or two India's economy will grow big enough to match many of those around the world.
Many people think India is 3rd world, but from what I've heard about their big cities, they're pretty much exactly like our metropolitan hubs. Yeah, the rest of the country needs to catch up, but don't you think Wyoming needs to catch up the rest of the U.S. too?
With the current situation in the Tech industry, it is more important now than ever to broaden your field of expertise. Don't do just "programming", but get more training in a field that needs programmers and researchers. For example, I just graduated with my Comp Sci BA, and am now getting my Masters. Except now I'm specializing my degree in bioinformatics (a highly growing field). General programmers are a dime-a-dozen right now, so make yourself marketable.
I'm switching careers to trades. It isn't that hard and most of us can work with our hands and will take twenty seconds instead of twenty minutes to calculate how much tile is needed for the bathroom walls. I've already done a few tiling projects on the side and now I'm getting my electrician's papers. Soon I'll be able to cover everything from finishing carpentry to wiring and plumbing. Pays just as well as the office job did at peak if you're willing to work hard. Last month I netted $5,000CAD (I live north of the border) which is a very healthy sum here especially that that's AFTER TAX money. And wehn was the last time you heard of a plumber being outsourced to India? That's right my friedns, when that pipe bursts in your CEO's house even the 20,000 Indians he's hired arent gonna be much use at 15,000 miles away.
So my friends, next time you hear that your job is getting shipped to India tell your manager that she can kiss your ass goodbye because it's a great opportunity to give up your (most likely) shitty job and do something useful instead. You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job.
Oh and in the evening (that's right trade jobs run 9 to 5 not 8 to midnight, imagine that!) when you get home there is no reason not to fire up the computer and do some open source coding, for fun, without the stresss and aggravation of a PHB meddling with good things and making stupid suggestions. Write some great software and donate it to Open Source. Even Indians can't compete with that pricing model :-)
So my friends this is our new reality we all have to face. We all love programming but it doesn't make us money anymore. It started out as a hobby (for most of us) and now is the time it went back to being a hobby. For a living however, we must do something more lucrative that can't be outsourced by the next bunch of stuffed shirts. Like trades.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Next on CBS Reality Thusday: Extreme Internships- India.
Watch Jack edge out Ganaraj with his sharp mastery of the english language and superior problem-solving skills. Will Sharon become the next IT manager, or will Mahakanta beat her to it with her better memorization skills?
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Where the fuck do you guys get those stories from? I happen to have been born in a pretty inexpensive country (Eastern Europe). Yes some things are cheaper over there BUT my salary back home would have been an equivalent of $16,000US. A three bedroom house there costs $150,000. A new car costs $25,000. A meal in a restaurant runs up around $30. Yeah. so it's cheaper than the US. By about 20%. Except salaries (even for programmers) are about 70% lower. Stop daydreaming you are not going to live a lavish life if you move to an Indian IT sweatshop to be a code monkey for da man. However many rupees they'll pay you is definitely not going to make your life more comfortable than an average American can afford. There is a reason why US has the highest PER CAPITA Gross Domestic Product in the world.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
I'm fine with high income tax if somethings done with it.
In many of those countries the result is less of a divide between rich and poor... most people are distinctly middle class, which is almost the only class. And their government takes care of everyone nicely and provides for its citizens. It's big government without being overbearing and infringing on its citizens liberties. I personally think countries like Denmark are role models for the rest of the world these days.
Nobody seems to be aware of the fact that you still have to pay US taxes if you work abroad. That is in addition to whatever taxes you pay in the host country.
My company just asked me to relocate to the Philippines for a 1-2 years (minimum) so they have someone on-site at all times. Now keep in mind my situation is different from most people in the tech industry --- I'm keeping my hourly wage, and the company is covering my housing expenses (I would have a 3-bedroom villa in a gated community, a maid, a security guard and a driver --- all that is costing them less than US$1000/month). So the deal is sweeter than moving to India, but the principles are the same.
Right now I'm in the middle of my first trip to the Philippines and it's been... a trip to say the least. Everything about this experience has been positive, largely because Filipinos seem, as a whole, a happy, gregarious people.
Everyone here speaks at least some English and anyone with an office job speaks exceptional English. The only place we ever stumble is on phrases and idioms. (Quite honestly English here is on average better than in the states --- McDonald's employees speak better English than they do in the US)
Food is American friendly... if you absolutely must, there's McDonalds, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. but the local food is also quite good. Markets and grocery stores are fine, and you can certainly muster American fare from what you can find there. And everything is cheap --- I ate for about $3/day last week and, last night, splurged and bought a $10 meal at a resort restaraunt.
After that I went out to one of the hottest clubs in the city and spent about $30 on cover charge, a couple drinks for myself, and a round for 15 of my coworkers. (When I say coworkers I mean "very intelligent, funny, cute, single women all under 30" we'll leave it at that.)
My advice -- don't reject the idea of moving overseas outright. Regardless if you come back ahead or not, it's going to be a great life experience and be a nice item on your resume.
For those who are considering moving to India.
Temperatures in India range from -40 celsius to +50.
In the Northern part of India, we have extreme climate, but in the southern, where Bangalore in located, we have equable type of climate.
In the North, the mighty Himalayas and many hill stationsare relatively closer. You can go to these hill stations like the British used to do. Sometimes they had two capitals, one for summers and another for winter.
There are several scenic spots in Southern India. I have never been there, but tourists' accounts say that it is greener and cleaner. Kerala is a very beautiful place. It is ruled by Communists though.
Sports.
India is crazy about cricket. It is like baseball except that you can hit the ball and choose not to run.
If the temperature is a low 38 degrees in April and you don't feel like working, you can always go out and play cricket.
Diet.
Indian food is world renowned. However, lot of mixing (also known as adulteration) occurs. The net result is that you don't get to consume as much fat as you would in USA or Canada or UK. Therefore, you lose weight. Also, 365 days of sun per year ensures you become more tanned.
Imagine the combined effect of this. Once you go back home after a stint in India, girls are going to make a beeline for you.
I just saw a job posting on a website yesterday that specified that they were looking for people who were willing to work at "Indian Salary Levels" and then pointed to an Indian job web site as a reference to find out what "competitive" bids were.
That definitely has me a bit concerned. I'm a programmer and I work out of Mexico, so while I can offer pretty competitive rates, I still expect to get paid well. Unfortunately the market is saturated by programmers, and I believe with time, that will change as programers continue to drop out because of job competition.
Really, my take on it, at least in the States, is that a lot of people went into software to make money. I think now that it's harder to make good money at it, the ones that are going to stick around are going to generally be the ones who really love doing it. Hopefully that will level the market out a bit.
The fact remains that some of us are quite skilled at what we do and that some people, no matter how hard they try, aren't going to be nearly as good as those of us who are in this field because we love the write software and have a natural ability with it. For the same reason, I'll never play guitar like Eddie Van Halen or paint like Van Gogh (and that's not to imply that I think I'm the Eddie Van Halen or Vincent Van Gogh of computer programming).
For most of the time I've been in this field (the last 4 years notwithstanding), most of the programmers were people that really loved it and the ratio of really good programmers to mediocre programers was fairly high. That ratio has reversed in the past few years. When it returns, I suspect the pay will get closer to what we expect as well.
Even here in Mexico, and granted, I live in one of the pricier towns in Mexico, living at Indian pay rates is simply out of the question.