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Hack Your Car
gurps_npc writes "The New York Times has this story about hacking your car's chip. You can get significant horse power and torque boosts (+18 horsepower and +70 foot pounds of torque in the given example), as well as improve (or decrease) fuel efficency. The car companies do not like (surprise surprise) people personalizing their vehicle's programming and warn of burning out your engine with bad code, and voiding your warranty."
I would tinker with the insides of any computer, or any electronic device.
But on the other hand, if I make a mistake with a car I could hurt or kill myself.
I think I will just leave them alone and keep hacking my Xbox and Tivo, I cant die if I screw up my Tivo.
warn of burning out your engine with bad code, and voiding your warranty. No different than overclocking and many people have been very successful doing this...
DrkBr
Why are companies so utterly retarded about these things? They should go out of their way to SUPPORT this kind of thing. It provides zero-cost research to the company, and increases value to the customer. Besides, as long as everyone is in understanding that it voids the car's warranty, why would they discourage it?
The same goes for Microsoft and their crappy console, and the thousands of other companies that blatantly spit on their best customers.
When I was taking Real-Time programming we discussed car code. The prof said it has a 7 year development cycle and takes about 2 developer hours per assembly instruction to write, test, and debug the code.
I don't see a hacked code being anywhere near as reliable. Even if it makes the changes you want, your car might end up stalling as often as windows crashes.
Jason
ProfQuotes
The article states that some of these hacked cars are violating state emissions standards. Yet, they also have the ability to reset their cars back to the factory settings whenever they need to. In fact, in some states, newer cars aren't even emissions tested every year because it's presumed they come out okay from the factory.
"But if it wasn't for the smoke, I'd be happy with it," is I think the exact reason why car makers are underclocking the potential power of cars. This could be an enviromental problem waiting to happen if this catches on.
Most cars are tuned for a compromise of fuel efficiency, low pollution, and reliability. So these mods will adversely affect these more mundane automotive goals.
On the one hand, these high performance mods probably turn the car into serious emitter of nasty gases.
On the other hand, the added stress probably shortens the lifespan of the engine and gets the car off the road that much sooner.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
This reminds me a bit too much of the "simple free digital cable PPV device" we see spammers selling. You hook it up, you "buy" as many order-with-your-remote shows as you can for a couple months, and then when the bill comes, you see just your base bill with no charges for the shows your watched.
The device blocks the upstream communciations frequencies so your box can't call home, but allow the broadcast frequencies to pass through so you still get watchable signals. However, after a few months, the party's over. The cable company sends down a signal cutting off your service, and tells you you'll have to let the digital box call home before you can watch anything again. Guess what, the box has been keeping count all along. So you pay full price for everything you thought was free, and you're out the money you spent on a worthless device...
If somebody's selling an unathorized upgrade without being willing to stand behind their product, you better watch out. Something's not right with the deal.
You don't get anything for free.
Good for you. I hope when you sell the car you inform the buyer.
The worst of scum are the people who run mod chips in their car for several years, put the original back in, then trade the car in at a dealership.
If you do this, you are really screwing someone. Sleep well now, for karma will visit later.
Many compromises are made in designing the control systems, and a mod chip just selects a different set of compromises. Some of these are:
Of these, manufacturing cost (and emissions, if you're environmentally inconsiderate) are they only compromises for which your criteria are likely to be different from those of the manufacturer, and hence the ones where aftermarket modifications might help. I don't see why the particular firmware in the chip would affect manufacturing cost, so it boils down to the other issues.Ignition timing. Advanced ignition timing may result in higher performance, but also may cause pre-ignition (knock) which will damage your engine unless you use premium fuel.
Fuel economy.
Driveability - throttle lag, stumbling, rough idle, run-on, are all issues of concern.
Emissions. High combustion temperatures send NOx emissions through the roof.
Maintenance intervals.
Longevity.
Manufacturing cost.
What ECU? My 1984 Chevy Van G20 doesn't have one. And ya know what? I'm happy! All that electronic MESS just serves to throw more chaos into a system that's designed around EXPLOSIVE ENERGY.
Why bother with electronics, when you can do something that's time tested and proven -- mechanics. For every advantage electronics give you, there's an associated disadvantage -- Biggest disadvantage? More things can go wrong at any given moment in time, and the older the electronics, the more prone it is to failure and the harder it is to come by replacement parts.
This simple maxim is just as true for stock cars as it is for modded cars. Case in point: My 1983 Nissan 280ZX is fuel injected, so it has an ECU. It has a stalling problem, yet all of the mechanics are fine. The problem is electrical -- most likely related to the ECU, but I'm not going to go pay someone $400 to find it, and then charge me a buttload more to fix it.
With my van, since everything is mechanical, it's easy to find the problem... symptoms are fewer when a problem occurs... There's not too much guesswork in diagnosing it.
Want to upgrade? Easy as pie. New cam, intake, exhaust system and a good quality carb. My choice? Edelbrock. Everything's designed to match, so the guesswork's been taken care of.
Top that with an ECU upgrade that you'll pay just as much for as I did for the entire mechanical upgrade, and I'll guarantee you I have a buttload more HP per dollar spent.
And I also guarantee I'll win in any tug of war against your Honda Civic.... Replacement bumpers anyone?
-Phyre
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thom
Just how fast do you need to go down an on-ramp in the first place?
65 or 70 mph depending on the state. If you're not going the speed limit by the time you get on the freeway either the on-ramp was very poorly designed or you're a very bad driver.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Like anything, as long as you fully understand what you are doing, it's perfectly safe. In fact, most people with professional technical qualifications are probably brighter and more careful than many auto mechanics, and I know from experience, that at least I know that I will do the job *right*. The important thing is that people are willing to learn how to do things right. I will still leave jobs to the professionals when:
- It would take too much time to learn and do
- It needs expensive, specialised tools
- It needs more skills/tools than I have just now
- It's a horrible job
As for the original article, that's old news. Enhanced chips and programmable chips have been available for years. The good ones do more than extend the fuel map past the programmed maximum, it's really important that they take into account stuff like the EFI's fuel delivery capacity, many, many chipped cars have been ruined because a badly programmed chip leaves the top end too lean. Buy any magazine about high performance 4 cylinder cars.
Xix.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
You pulled that "100 hp" out of the air: nowhere in the article is such a claim made.
However, significant gains can be made in some areas without running afoul of your first failure mode. If you are willing to commit to always using high-octane fuel, for example, then you can safely derive significant benefit by changing the ignition advance settings in the ROM maps.
Other useful features can be added to your ECU as well. Consider the products from TechnoMotive. You can add security so that the engine will only start if you tap a secret code on the gas pedal. You can make instrumentation display many different data -- helping you prevent the types of failures you mention. You can even have bugs from the manufacturer fixed:
ObDisclaimer: not associated with TMO in any way, but have heard great things from their customers.
i'd consider a vehicle which can perform incredibly impressive physical feats to be just as awesome as a supercomputer.
When was the last time that you ran from 0-60mph in 5 seconds?
Using a supercomputer for word processing is kinda boring. Maybe you should stop using your car just to get from point A to point B
Only if you belong to the idiot masses. Go look up the origional definition of hack and you would realize that it applies a lot more to tweaking your cars onboard computer than it does to script kiddies exploiting security holes.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
OK.
1.) Annoying other law-abiding motorists:
As opposed to the 65-hp Honda Civics than can't get the fuck out of their own way and have the "super-kewl" fart-cans to make them SOUND fast? Just because I *have* 350hp in my car, or 175hp in my bike, doesn't mean I taunt other motorists.
2.) Breaking the law
Right. And ONLY high-horsepower car owners break the law? Again, I know plenty of Buick Park Avenues that can break the law. Run a stop sign, speed in a residential, etc.
3.) Killing pedestrians.
Seriously, this merits a big "Oh, fucking bullshit." I can kill pedestrians with a Dodge Neon just as easily as a Dodge Viper. Your argument is like equating birth control with abortion.
4.) Impressing young boys
Actually, 350hp or more is for MY enjoyment. I enjoy running against other people with high-performance vehicles on the track on Sundays, or in race events against equivalent drivers and vehicles. What the fuck is the point of smoking little Johnny in his Mommy's Beretta? Oh yeah - none.
Your attitudes are ignorant, dangerous, and in most cases, completely wrong.
In the same vein, I'd challenge:
The ONLY uses for Overclocked computers and Linux are:
1.) Annoying Microsoft and SCO - obviously, they are making good products, and any attempts to mess with them are wrong. And making your computer faster than the advertised chip you bought is stealing - if you wanted a 2GHz processor, you should have PAID for one!
2.) Breaking the law: Linux is 'open-source', and SCO and Microsoft both oppose them. Why would you need anything other than what Microsoft gives you?
3.) Killing capitalism: Without the valuable R&D that proprietary software companies do, there would be no innovation and no advancement in the software industry.
4.) Impressing young boys: D3wd, my b0x is s0 lee7! C43ck 17 0u7!! 1 700k a Athl0n1200 and pushed it to 2200! Totally teh sw337!
In other words, sir.... Feh to you and your ignorance. Don't condescend to my hobbies.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
how about -1 flamebait?
im 6'2" and i appreciate the room i get in a full sized american car. i also like being able to take 5 ppl or so with me. maybe i dont want to drive around in a 800lb piece of tin with 1 carburetor per cylinder(sure, sure, theyre efi now, its a joke). ill give credit where its due, f1 racing is WAY better than nascar or indy. roundy round just seems boring. also, european cars have their place, just like american cars do. id love to own an m5, for instance. i dont think a comparable car exists factory in the US.
concerning US motorsports:
so autocrossing, rally, and trans am dont exist in the US? talk about ignorant. also, ever heard of the viper? yeah, the one that kicks a lot of tail in germany for a lot less $$?
okay, how about early 90's eagle talons with awd turbo motors that can see 13's stock and still outcorner your aston for thousands less?
to each his own, have you ever driven in a 2600lb car with 500hp? i have nothing against european cars, but you wanted to troll... drive the car you want the way you want, but dont talk trash about my choices in the matter.
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
Not the ECU. Here's the situation: You wreck your later then 02 vehicle. The insurance company pulls the body computer and acquires the last 20 seconds of data before the crash sensors signal airbag deployment. Data like throttle possition, brake possition, rpm, speed are recorded and available for use. All this data for authorities to grep without your permission.
That's the real fix necessary!
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
For someone who knows so much about BMW's F1 racing habits, you should know better than this...
.02% life? That sounds pretty generous. Lets assume the average BMW engine block can run 30 years (with proper maintenance). At 2 hours per day for those 30 years (thats probably really low) that is 43800 hours of use. .02% of that 8.76 hours. I doubt most F1 engines will run that long without a major overhaul or replacement.
There were no similarities between the engine parts aside from the block. The pistons, connectors, cylinder heads etc. are all substantially beefed up and radically different in the F1 engine, obviously.
Similarly, in NHRA racing, they use big block engines that probably ran 200 hp in their stock version, but are quite capable of running multi-thousand in NHRA.
And
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You're best off doing this with a completely separate engine, tranny, ECU, etc. Run the performance parts on the track. Use the factory stock parts for road use. Three reasons: one, "good stuff" is disgustingly expensive. Why waste it sitting in traffic jams on the way to work? Two, you'll need a better crank, bearing caps, rods, heads, valve train, clutch, tranny, CV joints, etc. to handle any significant increase in power. Street cars don't come with a Borg Warner T-10 and Ford 9" differential any more, they have light duty drive trains designed for minimum drag (fuel economy). Unless you drive a pickup, you're lucky to have more than a half ton towing rating--the stock driveline, brakes and suspension can't handle the load. Third, iirc it's a $10,000 federal fine if they decide to arrest you for "tampering" with an approved emissions control system (such as the ECU). It doesn't happen often, but it does happen (especially in smoggy, car-crazy California).
We Americans might have some other reasons to have and do what we do that the EU and Asian Types don't think about. While I am not personally a fan of the extremely big cars, you might just take note that we don't live in Europe or Asia.
When my wife who is from the Philippines was processing her papers to come here, I told her to get some training in driving a car. She said, "No I will just walk to the store and where I want to go." I countered, it is 8 km from my house to the nearest substantial store, you need to learn to drive. I do not live in the West USA, I live in a fairly populated area of the East in Madison County Alabama.
We Americans are likely to have to use our vehicles to haul furniture, and large items that EU types and East Asians are likely to have delivery services for. We are also likely to live where travel in the order of 150 km on a daily trip is not uncommon. (Yes I do know the Miles to Km conversions) I am also 1.88 m tall. I do not fit well in one of those little tin can cars that the world thinks I should use. I do own a large Nissan Quest Minivan. It is much more pleasant than my Honda Civic which is my other car. The economy in gasoline usage is about 22mpg city and 30 mpg Highway on the Nissan and about 32 mpg Honda Civic and about 40 mpg highway. My work is about to have to make me take a Transcontinental Trip. At my Size and carrying some luggage etc I need a larger vehicle.
I don't here too much about EU types having to travel say 3,000 km in 3 day with a wife 2 kids and luggage on board. I also don't hear about you buying plywood and lumber for building onto your property very often.
There is another point that the EU types and the East Asians miss when they start dumping on NASCAR and Monster Trucks and Drag Racing etc. (I am not a racing fan) Very nearly every innovation in efficiency or safety in Automotive Transportation has arisin from such types as the NASCAR Racers. It is their "Tweeking" that has brought about the new technology. These are the Tech Scientists on the Cutting Edge who brought about the prosperity of modern society. Resenting them is just plain IGNORANT.
EU Types also live in a world with streets built for horse and donkey tech. Their major cities do have some modern streets but London, Paris and many others are mostly narrow streets incapacitated for modern transport. The USA on the other hand was generally built to handle this. The comparison of our world and your world is simply not to understand that they are as alien as seperate planets. The reason we have brought the world cars, aircraft, farm tractors, and a lot more is because we don't think like the EU types. We don't live like you do and this is not to say that you are wrong for your world. It simply is to say that you are wrong about our world.
Our weather is quite different from yours. The comments about Airconditioning is a good example. I live in Alabama. Our weather finds that in the Spring, Summer and Fall I am subject to having the temperature in my car reach 80 Deg C in the mid day. Opening the windows finds the exterior temperature reaching between 35 and 40 Deg C. The Relative Humidity is often 95% or higher. This just doesn't happen even in southern Europe. You may get as hot but for the most part your Heat Index is much less. Also at your Humidity conditions a wet cloth cools you adequately. Here it just gets you sticky and hotter. In the winter I am subject to having my windows fog up not from temperature but from Humidity conditions and Air Conditioning is a Safety tool then! These conditions are not solved by opening windows.
Our conditions are vastly different here on so many issues that you simply don't know what is going on. While I know persons who love NASCAR and it is most definitely a very popular sport in Alabama (Number 1 or 2) it is hardly the "Obsession" that you think.
Being from Alabama I think you simply don't have a clue as to what is going on either. This isn't some Hick sport of the ignorant t
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Holy misleading analogy. I've seen so much misinformation and FUD in the comments that my head is spinning. Look folks, people have been "chipping" their cars for years, and there are many reputable companies selling ECU chips. For example, APR has been in the business for a long time and is well-respected. Their chip will give my VW Passat 1.8t an additional 45hp, and you don't even have to take anything apart since it can be directly programmed. And their chips are well tested and won't "burn out" your engine. Considering that the 1.8t engine is used in many cars and hp varies from 150-225, I think what APR does is well within the engines limits. All in all, it's rather conservative.
Some other pieces of helpful info: Chips frequently give you better gas milage and I've never heard of anyone (in the VW world) failing an emmission test because of it.
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
That's rather strange, since I'm 190cm tall and I owned a Metro, which was plenty big enough for me. In fact, a '95+ Metro/Swift (now Aveo/Swift) has more legroom in the front and back than a '94 Cavalier. These cars look tiny from the outside, but there's some rather impressive engineering at work to gain a lot of space.
I have lived in Europe (Eastern Europe to be exact) and people do haul stuff around like you wouldn't believe! I've seen everything from bricks to cow shit (for fertelizer) moved in the trunk (which was often times in the front on many rear engined models) I've taken vacations spanning thousands of kilometers with a family of four. I've seen my grandfather hauling a trailer of fruits and veggies to the market with his 1968, 49HP Skoda 1000MB. Not to mention that the roads in Eastern Europe at this time were way worse than anything here, yet the little cars got the job done. It's all American perception that you need an SUV to go over a speed bump.
-I DDoSed your mom.
Insightful? You could do everything you stated in a mini-van with less than 300 HP but I'm sure that would dent your image so you drive a 3 ton SUV instead .... by yourself for 95% of the time probably.
I'm soooo tired of people rationalizing "I wanna SUV" with "I take 5 people with me and I'm 6'2". I'm 6'2" and can take 4 people in my audi A4 just fine.