An Interview with Jeff Waugh

An anonymous reader writes "LinuxWorld has published a nice interview with Jeff Waugh, one of the core members of the GNOME community. In the interview Waugh talks about the upcoming GNOME 2.6, his views on software patents and on the involvement of the big vendors in the GNOME development process. Waugh is the current chair of the GNOME release team."

Comments

GNAA Leaks Windows 2000 Source code

[Anonymous Coward]

GNAA Leaks Windows 2000 Source code
by GNAA staff

As previously reported here, source code to Microsoft's latest operating system has been stolen.

So far, nobody claimed responsibility for the act, and Microsoft is denying it even happened. But you know better than that! GNAA 0wnz you.


We will be right back after this commercial break!
According to Google Zeitgeist, there are about 80% of Internet Explorer 6 users. The only platform supporting Internet Explorer 6 is, of course, Microsoft Windows. These statistics are consistent with the earlier presented graphs of the operating systems used to access Google, with the Windows family consistently taking the top 3 ranks. Out of remaining 20%, the split is even between MSIE 5.5, MSIE 5.0, both Windows-only browsers. Netscape 5.x (including Mozilla) counts for only a measly 5% of browsers used to access Google. As you can see from the graph, this sample was calculated starting from March 2001 until September 2003.
According to Google Zeitgeist, there are about 80% of Internet Explorer 6 users. The only platform supporting Internet Explorer 6 is, of course, Microsoft Windows. These statistics are consistent with the earlier presented graphs of the operating systems used to access Google, with the Windows family consistently taking the top 3 ranks. Out of remaining 20%, the split is even between MSIE 5.5, MSIE 5.0, both Windows-only browsers. Netscape 5.x (including Mozilla) counts for only a measly 5% of browsers used to access Google. As you can see from the graph, this sample was calculated starting from March 2001 until September 2003.
And now we return to our scheduled broadcast...

.________________________________________________. fucking
| ______________________________________._a,____ | CmdrTaco
| _______a_._______a_______aj#0s_____aWY!400.___ | will
| __ad#7!!*P____a.d#0a____#!-_#0i___.#!__W#0#___ | he ever learn that
| _j#'_.00#,___4#dP_"#,__j#,__0#Wi___*00P!_"#L,_ | GNAA is totally
| _"#ga#9!01___"#01__40,_"4Lj#!_4#g_________"01_ | unstoppable? Teamed
| ________"#,___*@`__-N#____`___-!^_____________ | up with the other troll groups,
| _________#1__________?________________________ | GNAA will absolutely own
| _________j1___________________________________ | the shitty place that is slashdot.
| ____a,___jk_GAY_NIGGER_ASSOCIATION_OF_AMERICA_ | Just remember, the longer the lines are,
| ____!4yaa#l___________________________________ | the smaller CmdrTaco's penis.
| ______-"!^____________________________________ | This logo is (C) 2003, 2004 GNAA
` _______________________________________________' [1]

(C) GNAA 2003, 2004

Re:GNAA Leaks Windows 2000 Source code

[Anonymous Coward]

I figured they banned you clown rapists for good. Don't you assholes have anything better to do than crapflood legitimate web sites? This is a sad day for society. Rot in hell, jerkoff.

Be a GNAA anal valentine!

[Anonymous Coward]

GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) is the first organization which
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Are you a NIGGER ?
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If you answered "Yes" to any of the above questions, then GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) might be exactly what you've been looking for!
Join GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) today, and enjoy all the benefits of being a full-time GNAA member.
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Why not? It's quick and easy - only 3 simple steps!

First, you have to obtain a copy of GAY NIGGERS FROM OUTER SPACE THE MOVIE (Click Here to download the ~280MB MPEG off of BitTorrent)

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Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in the channel to sign up today!

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If you do not have an IRC client handy, you are free to use the GNAA Java IRC client by clicking here.

If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.

This post brought to you by Penisbird , a proud member of the GNAA

CLICK HERE TO SIGN THE PETITION TO BRING BACK GOATSE.CX!

________________________________________________
| ______________________________________._a,____ |
| _______a_._______a_______aj#0s_____aWY!400.___ |
| __ad#7!!*P____a.d#0a____#!-_#0i___.#!__W#0#___ |
| _j#'_.00#,___4#dP_"#,__j#,__0#Wi___*00P!_"#L,_ |
| _"#ga#9!01___"#01__40,_"4Lj#!_4#g_________"01_ |
| ________"#,___*@`__-N#____`___-!^_____________ |
| _________#1__________?________________________ |
| _________j1___________________________________ |
| ____a,___jk_ GAY_NIGGER_ASSOCIATION_OF_AMERICA_|
| ____!4yaa#l___________________________________ |
| ______-"!^____________________________________ |
` _______________________________________________'

Jeff Waugh

[Klerck]

Jeff Waugh. What's he all about? Is he good, or is he whack?

The Japanese don't understand Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

If they did, they'd be obsessed with underage girls and robots. Oh, wait....

Waugh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well well well, what is he good for?" [Only the aussies here will get this. Nothing on *this* (Jeff) Waugh)]

Re:Waugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Twas the night before Goatse, when all through the house
Not a penis was stirring, not even with mouth;
The Giver was hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St. Goatse soon would be there;

The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of anal sex danced in their heads;
And Katz in his 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled down for a fuck in the sack.

When up in my anus there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see Katz start to splatter.
Away to the bathroom I flew like a flash,
Tore open my anus and looked at the gash.

The moon in the glass had a vibrant red glow
Gave the lustre of sunset to my nutsack below,
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh, and eight tiny reindeer!

With a little old driver, so lively and quickse,
I knew in a moment it must be St. Goatse.
More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;

"Now, TACO! now, JAMIE! now, MICHEAL and TIMMY!
On, CHRISD! on HEMOS! on, PUDGEY and CLIFFY!
To the top of the ass! fronts to the the wall!
Now pound away! pound away! pound away all!"

As faggots that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with a hetero, mount the next guy,
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of sex-toys, and Goatse pics too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
The moaning and pawing of each little poof.
As I drew in my ass, and was turning around,
Down the chimney St. Goatse came with a bound.

He was dressed as a furry, from his head to his feet,
And his clothes were all tarnished with urine and shit;
A bundle of sex-toys he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a hooker just flapping his sack.

His eyes -- how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His ass cheeks like roses, his cock like a cherry!
His cute little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his scrotum as white as the snow;

The stump of a blunt he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
He had a broad face and was a bit smelly,
He shook, when he wanked like a bowlful of jelly.

He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him beat off himself;
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;

He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the stockings with smelly big turds,
He layed a big log right under my nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;

He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like a fucking great missile.
But I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight,
"HAPPY GOATSE TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD-NIGHT!"

Posted by Gurney at December 24, 2003 02:49 PM

Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.

Re:Waugh

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was "woe woe woe".

oh well. don't forget boonie :)

Re:Waugh

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians too. Remember, we also worship cricket!

Underpants Gnomes

[Anonymous Coward]

are an increasing problem!

Underpants Gnomes

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an increasingly troublesome problem.

Underpants Gnomes

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty concerned about 'em.

Underpants Gnomes

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an increasingly troublesome problem!

GNOME is great

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it to be a lot more reliable and stable then KDE. For this, I think people like him deserve credit.

Help save goatse.cx

[Billly Gates]

goatse.cx has gone under due to censorship.

Sign the goatse.cx petition and help save our beloved site from nazi style censorship.

Software developer talking about patents

[ObviousGuy]

What a sad state of affairs that this is one of the main topics that the GPL community has to discuss.

More than the progress of the GNU project, more than software engineering breakthroughs, more than new ideas in user interface design, software patents seems to have eclipsed all that.

I used to be excited about computers and sharing ideas, but when the community dedicated to sharing has become a one note wonder, I find myself dulled by such harping on technicalities rather than technologies.

Re:Software developer talking about patents

[Anonymous Coward]

When the "one note" seriously threatens the ability of the community to continue sharing, it has a tendency to cast a dark shadow over everything.

Re:Software developer talking about patents

[gaijin99]

I used to be excited about computers and sharing ideas, but when the community dedicated to sharing has become a one note wonder, I find myself dulled by such harping on technicalities rather than technologies.

Ahh, another slashdot poster who doesn't bother reading the article. Had you read the article you would have noticed that out of seven questions, one was about software patents. And it was a damn relivant question, too. Other questions focused on interface design, coder community design, etc.

Software patents are important, that's why people talk about them. If software patents are granted universally it won't do much good to talk about the other things, software engineering breakthroughs, etc, because it will be *ILLEGAL* for us to make any such breakthroughs. But, and again I really do have to recommend reading articles before posting like this, the article was hardly an example of FOSS becoming a "one note wonder".

Re:Software developer talking about patents

[Anonymous Coward]

And this guy has absolutely nothing to contribute on the subject. Patents are supposed to be obvious things? Sheesh! Then what are the teachings for, then?

I swear, they'll interview anybody.

Don't forget

[Anonymous Coward]

to submit this story to Slashdot every day until it gets covered.

This has to be asked...

[heironymouscoward]

What is the roadmap for convergence of Gnome and KDE? It is good to have choice, but sad to see a fragmentation at the application level. Apart from the different programming languages used in the two, is there any fundamental reason why a common API cannot be defined or added?

Right now it seems that the only solution for applications that want to be totally portable is to bypass KDE and Gnome entirely and use their own libraries (Mozilla, OOorg) and/or X.

Even being able to run Gnome and KDE side-by-side in the same sessions would be a good thing.

Re:This has to be asked...

[nzkoz]

A fundamental API like you're describing would be the 'lowest common denominator' between the two systems. No KIOSlaves for KDE and no Nautilus integration & panel applets on GNOME. Kinda like AWT from old java, and we all know how much that sucked.

A much saner approach is to ensure that the basic stuff is compatible. Window manager hints, preferences etc. Let application authors write with their preferred toolkit, but ensure it doesn't affect users.

Almost all linux users have both toolkits installed anyway. Yes, I realise some KDE users won't have gnome (Gentoo hackophiles etc.) however if they want to use CoolGnomeApp1.0 they'll just install some librarys and they're away.

Re:This has to be asked...

[unoengborg]

I certainly agree that fragmentation is a bad thing when it reduces choise. Even Microsoft is starting to use the lack of integration against free desktops in their get the facts campaign. It would be nice if we could prove them wrong.

Even if Gnome/Gtk and KDE/Qt are very different toolkits, that should not prevent users from having a good user experience even if toolkits are mixed. The tookit choise should be a developer only issue.This is possible in windows and on MacOS so why not on free desktops.

E.g. why must each browser have their own bookmark file format and bookmark file lokation? Both Gnome and KDE use a folder as Trash, why not use the same location for that folder by default?

Both Gnome and KDE have a postit applet for small desktop notes, why not use the same file format and file location.

Why not make it possible to do drag&drop between nautilus and konqueror. After all there is a XDND standard that both KDE and Gnome tries to follow in other applications. And if we drag a file from konqueror to the Trash in Nautilus we should get the expected behavior.

Browsers and some other applications have icons that have similar functions in both Gnome and KDE. E.g. Back and Forward icons for browsers. Why not let the icons have the same name in both Gnome and KDE.

Perhaps all such config options and data that is common to both Gnome and KDE could be held in a separate folder named e.g. .freedesktop.org.

Re:This has to be asked...

[be-fan]

1) GNOME apps work just fine in KDE, and KDE apps work just fine in GNOME. Indeed, the integration between GNOME and KDE apps is much gerater than between either desktop and Mozilla/OO.o/Motif/Xaw apps.

2) GNOME and KDE have adopted quite different philosophies. The GNOME folks have thrown a lot of effort into polishing the UI, and the KDE folks have spent a lot of effort on the underlying technology. GNOME goes with a "simpler is better" philosophy, while KDE goes with "users like features and power." GNOME tries to define one "right" configuration, while KDE allows you to individualize your setup for efficiency. As such, t would be nearly impossible to define a common framework for both desktops.

Right now, the best thing to do is push for greater integration. People who actually use KDE and GNOME find themselves mostly using apps from one desktop. Using apps from the other desktop is an exception, not the rule. As long as the integration is good, than this isn't a problem. Windows users seem to deal with apps that use a different toolkit (Visual Studio, MS Office, etc) just fine.

Speaking of GTK 2.4

[$calar]

Wasn't it supposed to be released on the 2nd?

http://gtk.org/plan/2.4/

New file selector, yum.

Re:Speaking of GTK 2.4

[anarxia]

From the same page:
"A timescale of 8-9 months seems reasonable; that is, a final 2.4.0 in late August or early September. As always, we're a bit late, so our current target date is early in 2004."

I'd love to Gnome out!

[Basehart]

After a few lackluster attempts at installing Gnome on my OSX box I have to say that a nice easy step by step instruction would be most helpful.

For many users, all the untarring, compiling and whatnot is a major headache -- akin to grasping the concept of depth of field in photography for me. Once I finally got it, it was super easy, but getting it in the first place was a big struggle.

I guess there's something about the whole process that I either just don't get, or maybe I think it's a lot harder than it really is.

So anyone know an easy way to get Gnome on an OSX box?

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[RdsArts]

Install YellowDog GNU/Linux? ;)

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[Anonymous Coward]

try garnome. It is a great 'installer' for gnome. In reality it is just a bunch of makefiles and scripts that fetch, unpack and install packages in order of dependency.
http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/garnome/
It worked great on my RedHat box, but not sure if it will work on OSX.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[This is outrageous!]

So anyone know an easy way to get Gnome on an OSX box?

Google is your friend, the first six hits (after which I stopped checking) all send you to the right place.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't mean to be rude, but why? If you have OSX installed, you've probably got the best package that you're going to get for a Mac anyway.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[caseih]

yup. fink install gnome-bundle. or fink-install [gnome-package-name] to install individual components. I did this and it took about a day of compiling off and on, but I have a full gnome desktop that I run on top of the normal OS X desktop (turn off nautilus, use quartz-wm). On the left side I have the normal OS X panel, and on the bottom I have a small gnome panel. The best of both worlds.

See the fink home page for more information. But really, it's not hard at all.

Michael

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[GauteL]

Yes. It is in Fink now, which means that GNOME 2.4.x should be extremely simple to install on OSX.

Read this for instructions.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[twener]

Forget GARNOME, there is neither a version for the latest stable nor the latest unstable GNOME release available.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[JInterest]

After a few lackluster attempts at installing Gnome on my OSX box I have to say that a nice easy step by step instruction would be most helpful.

Sure. Dump OSX, install Yellow Dog Linux, and install GNOME using RPMS. Done.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[Knuckles]

There is, as of today

Re:I'd love to Gnome out!

[Basehart]

"should be extremely simple to install"

That's the whole point -- it is NOT extremely simple to someone like me who is missing some basic point. I just don't get it for some reason. Something is not making sense, and I don't know what it is!

Installing Fink was the easy bit - I even re-downloaded the Fink 0.6.2 installer and was greeted with:

Fink 0.6.2 Installer cannot be installed on this computer.

A root directory /sw exists. Please see the Read Me file for update instructions, or for information on installing Fink on a separate volume.

So I guess I did something right the last time I tried to install Gnome.

Then I head over to Gnome and make my way through pages of about builds and revisions, tarballs, dselects and FINK Commander, finally ending up at an ftp site that promises the actual "gnome" and I see this:

bindings/ 05-Jan-2004 20:28 -
desktop/ 29-Nov-2003 07:55 -
fifth-toe/ 02-Oct-2003 06:41 -
hacker-tools/ 19-Sep-2002 18:17 -
office/ 19-Sep-2002 18:17 -
platform/ 19-Sep-2002 18:17 -
sources/ 12-Feb-2004 09:42 -
teams/ 11-Feb-2004 15:50 -
FGO-FOOTER.html 20-Sep-2003 20:17 1.0K
FGO-HEADER.html 22-Sep-2003 02:12 468
FULL 15-Feb-2004 09:18 1.0K
LATEST 15-Feb-2004 20:54 2.2K
LATEST.xml 15-Feb-2004 20:54 9.4K
MIRRORS 15-Feb-2004 09:18 963
MIRRORS.html 15-Feb-2004 09:18 2.2K

So where's Gnome? Did it come with fink back when I installed it in January? If so how do I turn it ON?

A poster earlier asked why I would even want to run Gnome anyway. Good question!

Gnome or KDE

[GonzoDave]

I'm planning on switching to Linux, despite the things I'll have to give up (ie IE's speed and excellent history, the availability of reliable Windows drivers for my hardware and the versatility and stability of WMP).
Anyway, I know many Linux distros put plenty of redundant content on the CDs, presumably to hide the fact that it's a non professional product. I'm not keen on using more than one GUI, so my question for you Linux gurus is-should I use Gnome or KDE? Which one is faster and more function filled?

Re:Gnome or KDE

[timmarhy]

oh-my-god flamebait!!!!!!!!

Re:Gnome or KDE

[Horny Smurf]

KDE 3.2 is noticably faster than GNOME 2.whatever. KDE is also more like windows than gnome (which is more like motif). You might want to look at Lindows, which uses KDE for the GUI. HTH.

Re:Gnome or KDE

[extra the woos]

this wasn't flamebait (no one is gonna bother flaming the first part of his post lmao), however, it may have been a bit redundant as this question comes up EVERY TIME an article like this rolls around...now i'm not karma whoring here, BUT there is only one answer:

USE BOTH... Whichever one you like better (and you will, its never a toss up!) use!

Re:Gnome or KDE

[prockcore]

KDE is also more like windows than gnome (which is more like motif).

Gnome is nothing like motif.. ugh motif is horrible. I'd say that KDE is like Windows 2000 (not like XP), and Gnome is like OS X.

Re:Gnome or KDE

[be-fan]

KDE is whatever you want it to be. I've got mine set up like OS X --- menubar at top, panel at bottom, toolbars and menus simplified. Out of box, its pretty Windows-y, but I'd wager most KDE users don't use the desktop the way it comes out of box.

Re:Gnome or KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got mine set up like OS X

And yet it works nothing like OS X, and pales in comparison to it.

Cool!

Re:Gnome or KDE

[be-fan]

It depends on where your priorities are. Yeah, OS X is more polished and more pretty, but KDE is a whole lot more flexible and powerful.

Re:Gnome or KDE

[gnalle]

My only speed issue with GNOME is that it takes one or two seconds to make the main menu pop up from the toolbar. I am a happy and grateful GNOME user :)

Re:Gnome or KDE

[justsomebody]

As a guy who sold all of my Macs (had 4 and 1 powerbook (part of my job was Mac support), now I only have one G3 running yellowdog), I can say I'm happy.

And don't think that I haven't tried to use OSX. Common, I'm a sysadmin administering few companies and about 50 servers, I'm not unemployed, I don't have time to tweak my box to be usable for my work. Installing X11, installing Fink, compiling, searching for missing libraries, compiling, searching...

The common fact that Linux works nothing like OSX is main reason that I use it.

And believe me, Gnome is nothing like OSX. Main problem of OSX is when people like me start to use it. I always have 3x19" or 3x22" monitors, just to fit my windows. And just think about it, menu bar is on one monitor only, what a distance traveller this OSX mouse is (at least in my case). Also there is no support for separated screens, on Linux I just set Xinerama off and voila! Every monitor it's main menu and main panels with separated Window task list and it's own virtual screens.

Basically, my setup it's just as it would be as if I would use three different computers, but with one keyboard, one mouse and one storage.

But then again some people seem happy with OSX.

Re:Gnome or KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

Both are good. I can't decide between which.

I was a KDE 1.x user, a GNOME 1.2-1.4 user, a KDE 3.0 user, and a GNOME 2.2-2.4 user.

Right now, I'm using KDE 3.2. It's very fast compared to GNOME 2.4. Your mileage may vary (tm)

Re:Gnome or KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE is whatever you want it to be. I've got mine set up like OS X --- menubar at top, panel at bottom, toolbars and menus simplified. Out of box, its pretty Windows-y, but I'd wager most KDE users don't use the desktop the way it comes out of box.

No wonder I felt KDE was repulsive the minute I tried it. I don't want my desktop to look and feel like bloody Windoze dammit! GNOME forever!

Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

GNOME If You Want To

Boasting a revamped development and release structure, an upcoming instalment of its desktop environment in March, and a raft of new applications for future releases, the GNOME project is pushing to ensure free and open source software earns its place in the global desktop space.

According to GNOME release team head Jeff Waugh, who gave a presentation at the Linux.conf.au 2004 conference last week, the GNOME project has undergone a major facelift over the past 12 months. This has included switching to a time-based release schedule, starting with its 2.x series, as well as redefining the project's social structure into module maintainers, a release team, and an administrative and advisory foundation board.

As a result of its more 'cut and dried' structure, the release team for GNOME is also on track to issue the next instalment of GNOME version 2.6 in March this year, Waugh said. The release, now in beta testing, will include several new features, such as the introduction of the latest graphical user interface toolkit release GTK 2.4, as well as ongoing compatibility with API (Application Programming Interface) and ABI (Application Binary Interface). GNOME 2.6 will also support Evolution Dataserver version 2.0, which provides real-time, read-write access to calendar and contacts data from the desktop.

The project's development team is also working on the prototypes of value-added packages for GNOME version 2.8 and beyond. These range from application plug-ins to a collaboration station for its desktop stack, allowing users to interact with their network and database solutions through a variety of interchangeable interfaces off the desktop.

LinuxWorld's Nadia Cameron caught up with Waugh after his presentation to ask about the team behind the GNOME project, working with the big vendors, dealing with proprietary software patents and improving the open source desktop stack for global take-up.


LinuxWorld: Looking at the patent side of things -- working on a desktop system, in particular -- do you find that software patents are a big issue?

Waugh: Yes, it's something that we have hit our heads on a few times now. There's a couple of things in our file manager that we'd really like to do, and that our users would like to see, but we can't because Apple has patents on software in their finder.

The whole point of the patent system is that they're supposed to be obvious things. But there are a lot of things in computing that are unobvious to a point... (breaks off)

Also the mono project, which is a real implementation of Microsoft's .NET. A lot of people are excited about it but are also scared because Microsoft has some really big patents which cover big chunks of code - even the stuff that MS has standardised. So no one is really sure how they're going to use those patents or whether they [MS] would use them defensively.

LinuxWorld: Sun is actually using GNOME on its Java desktop systems. Does this mean you have a lot of interaction with Sun? Do you get a lot of feedback from them?

Waugh: Heaps. With Novell, Ximian, Red Hat, Sun - all of their developers are working with us. The (GNOME) foundation also has an interface to their corporate guys who are working with planning, etc . Every day we are working with Sun. Sun have actually been really good with the interaction between their own users and the rest of the (GNOME) project. They did a big usability study on the previous GNOME version (2.4) and they came back not only with the results of the study but with a bunch of comments from their users. They recently did the same thing on the beta testers of GNOME 2.6.

It's useful for us because the kind of users on our mailing lists are that one per cent of very technical users who get involved in open source stuff. When we're trying to deliver software that is going to appeal to the 99 per cent of people who just don't care and just want it to work, ge

Re:Article Text

[Elektroschock]

I is very intresting that he mentiones software patents as a big issue. But I believe it is more a European debate while the United States got used to it. I Don't like software patents, they are bad for development and business. But something has to be done in US as well. Does anybody know the name of US activists that may change the USPTO policy?

Gnome 2.6?

[RoadkillBunny]

They are already working on 2.6? But 2.5 is still in beta...

Re:Gnome 2.6?

[Anonymous Coward]

From http://www.gnome.org/start/: "Even-numbered releases are considered stable as both a user desktop and a development platform for third party software and ISVs. Odd-numbered releases are considered unstable, and are oriented toward testing and development of the desktop platform itself."

I dont like their attitude either

[Anonymous Coward]

Way too corporate ... I think Linus's approach is better, just avoid reading patents as much as you can and start caring when someone sues.

GNOME

[Tom-the-Great]

I have always used GNOME, so I am excited that a newer version will be released. I am a little behind, I am still using the GNOME version that came with Red Hat 7.1 :(

Re:GNOME

[Anonymous Coward]

RHL7.1? Dosn't GNOME1 come with that? You are waaay out of date...

Re:GNOME

[Coryoth]

How exactly is this informative?

It seems more likely that it was a set up post for the usual "GNOME has turned to crap ever since it went 2.0" trolls.

Jedidiah.

Re:GNOME

[phrasebook]

Okay. Thanks for letting us all know.

Re:GNOME

[Anonymous Coward]

Gnome is pretty impressive these days, especially considering it is built on top of a paint program. ;-)

Re:GNOME

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you clarify that?

Re:GNOME

[Anonymous Coward]

GIMP?

Re:GNOME

[UserGoogol]

GTK was originally written for the GIMP. GTK is the widget toolkit which GNOME uses.

Case Dismissed

[Anonymous Coward]

In terms of the technology, we've basically got all of the desktop applications solved.

In terms of the mental ward, we've basically got all of the penthouse suites booked....by YOU! HAHAHAHA

Honestly, GNOME is the best desktop excluding OSX in terms of usability (imho omg wtf) - but give me break, Jake! I guess if by 'solved' you really mean "looks kind of like something you've seen in either Windows or Mac, but not really", then I agree whole-heartedly.

GNAA

[Anonymous Coward]

GNAA (sung to the tune to Y.M.C.A. by the Village People)

Black man, there's no need to feel bad.
I said, black man, c'mon don't be so drab.
Don't let those bloggers ruin your day.
There are still pla-ces to be gay.

Black man, there's this place you should see.
I said, black man, fire up IRC.
There's this channel, that I'm sure you will like.
Every-thing is gonna be all-right.

It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!
It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!

You can go as you please,
Feel your hair in the breeze,
Crapflood Live Journal with ease!

It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!
It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!

You can write a good troll,
For the next Slashdot poll,
You can jerk off to goatse's hole!

Black man, why be here all alone?
I said, black man, you can get yourself boned.
I said, black man, you can get on teh spoke,
With thou-sands of gay nigger blokes.

Black man, are you down with this funk?
I said, black man, why you touching your junk?
Just go there, go to #gnaa
And apply for membership today!

It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!
It's fun to hang with the G-N-A-A!

You can go as you please,
Feel your hair in the breeze,
Crapflood Live Journal with ease!

G-N-A-A ... you'll find it at the G-N-A-A.

Black man, there's no need to feel bad.
I said, black man, c'mon don't be so drab.

G-N-A-A ... you'll find it at the G-N-A-A.
Black man, are you down with this funk? I said, black man, why you touching your junk?

YOU fAIL IT!!

[Anonymous Coward]

hfound out about the sudden and OpenBSD guys. They

We all get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh! Waugh! Good God! What is it good for? Absolutely nothin'! Say it again!...

Re:We all get it

[donscarletti]

Nah, cricket joke.

w00t Klerck in the hizzy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets frot

Love,

Xdfgf

Smart People

[boudie]

They seem to have loads of smart people working on Gnome these days. So how do they explain something like Epiphany? And why is gtk-2.0 so slow (compared to the first gtk certainly)?

Re:Smart People

[Anonymous Coward]

gtk 2 renders slower due to internationalization added when gtk 2 was being worked on. Its much harder to render when you have to be able to render in everyone's native language.

Re:Smart People

[0x0d0a]

The big deal is antialiasing. Try using the antialiasing patch in gtk1 -- gtk1-aa actually runs more slowly than gtk2.

You think that's a big CPU cycle eater, try Mac OS X. Whee!

Re:Smart People

[Anonymous Coward]

I know I'm going to get flamed for it, but... since it's blazing fast in KDE, why not use their code, or at least learn from it?

Just wondering... After that's all open source no?

Re:Smart People

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wondering... After that's all open source no?

Possible license clash (GPL vs LGPL).

Anyway, GTK support for internationalization is ahead of Qt's. Only recently (3.2?) Qt added support for hindi dialects, and GTK supported that several versions before.

Also consider support for accessibility is much more ahead in GTK (Qt will use at-spi, as does gnome, in the next versions). That could make it slower, too, but it's pretty nice to have (makes it worth not being faster).

So rewritting those parts in GTK in the style of Qt could be a regression.

Re:Smart People

[twener]

The only argument you gave says that GTK was ahead of Qt in internationalization. Anything confirming that it still is ahead?

Re:Smart People

[Anonymous Coward]

The only argument you gave says that GTK was ahead of Qt in internationalization. Anything confirming that it still is ahead?

None that I know of, although there's a precedent I mentioned, and there's still the accessibility issue that you seem to overlook, plus the GPL vs LGPL license issue I mentioned.

But if you feel it's worth to do some research about Qt vs GTK, by all means do so and inform the masses. But try to research _a bit_ better than the way you read my post.

Re:Smart People

[boudie]

So why doesn't everyone just learn to speak English? That way mozilla can load faster! I usually leave off nls support wherever I can. Ever looked at the size of kde-i18n-whatever?

Re:Smart People

[ericdfields]

It it seems that people either get epiphany, or they don't. Epiphany is not meant for your average slashdot poster. It is meant for the (nonexistant) computer user who uses gnome as thier only OS and just wants to be able to browse. This user will never use mouse gestures. This user will not want to customize their back/forward buttons, and all those other fun clickable objects.

Use firefox and shut up.

Re:Smart People

[boudie]

My apologies to the nonexistant computer users. I guess there's not many of them left.

Re:Smart People

[Anonymous Coward]

In response to: "So why doesn't everyone just learn to speak English?"

That wouldn't be fair. Now if everyone had to learn Chinese, that would be fair.

Here is the roadmap

[Srin Tuar]

Here is the unification roadmap:

KDE: ----------X
GNOME: ------------------->

</biased_gnome_user>

But, seriously, it doesnt make sense to talk about unifying them, as they are built around fundamentally different toolkits. ( Qt uses a modified subset of C++, GTK+ uses C as a base but has a nice C++ wrapper)

So they cant really be unified, though they can be made quite compatible.

I'm personally biased towards GNOME, because as a C++ programmer I love the stl, and thus hate Qt and the moc. But that doesnt mean I really think that KDE will die off: Free code is, after all, immortal.

Re:Here is the roadmap

[be-fan]

Qt and the STL are not at odds. They are two different approaches for two different problems. The STL is a general-purpose container library. Its not at all object-oriented, and aggressively static.

Meanwhile, Qt is specialized for GUI programming, and moc and the Qt container library fit that very well. Both allow for much more dynamic code, and in my experience, GUIs are extremely well-suited to dynamism in the language. After all, two of the best GUI languages ever (Smalltalk and Objective C) were of the dynamic/object-oriented variety.

I'm a C++ coder too, and also love the STL. However, I've spent a bit of time doing Qt programming, and really do agree that a more dynamic approach is better suited for GUIs.

Re:Here is the roadmap

[claes]

There is more to convergence than just toolkits. It is unfortunate that every comparison between Gnome and KDE always involves comparing toolkits and the differences between them. A desktop is so much more than just the stuff that builds the GUI. Actually, I think we should stop talking about desktop at this point, since the "desktop problem" is more or less solved. I would say both Gnome and KDE have accomplished what was envisioned at the point when the KDE project was started. I say there is a need for a new vision now, something that goes beyond just the simple toolkits on the desktop.

Convergence can take place in a number of areas. The configuration problem needs to be dealt with. Ideally, all programs should have a common configuration mechanism. Apache, Samba, mail servers, X, drivers etc should be easier to configure. There is a need for a common approach to these problems. This is a major problem to solve, since it needs cooperation and a common vision between all developers, not just the desktop developers.

Better hardware handling. There is work in progress here, and it is more important than most other things going on in KDE or Gnome.

Documentation and help systems. Every program should deliver documentation in a way so that can be integrated in a common help system. It should contain relevant metadata, be easily translatable, viewable in different environments. The information about available programs in the system today is scattered: there is information in the package management database, in the man pages, in the doc directory, in the menu hierarchy, but it is loosly coupled and it is not easy to find the documenation given the .desktop entry in the menu directory. I believe the free software community should define a metadata format like the one that freshmeat uses. Every tarball should include descriptions in a common format, and it should be usable in a number of contexts. There is a need for a distributed web of metadata. Today it seems the metadata is centralized in the package repositories and on freshmeat. There is a gap between description of packages and descriptions of the programs they install. Every available application needs good descriptions. Not just "Mozilla" "Web browser". "Konqueror" "Web browser".

Desktop Apps

[petabyte]

In terms of the technology, we've basically got all of the desktop applications solved. Between OpenOffice.org, GNOME, Mozilla and a number of other projects, the stack of stuff people generally use on the desktop is pretty much there.

Which really makes me wish that GNUCash was in that group. I do everything (word processing, email, spreadsheets, gaming) on Linux inside Gnome except for managing my finances. I keep a windows box with Quicken around for that. GNUCash could replace that for me but probably not before GNUCash-2 which is supposed to be GTK2. I heard they were short on developers and that was stalling progress on that. I guess personal finance doesn't have much of a place on a business desktop and gets less attention. I've been playing around with SQL-Ledger but thats a bit overkill for my needs.

That aside I love Gnome and am looking forward to 2.6 and Epiphany 1.2. :)

Re:Desktop Apps

[Anonymous Coward]

I do everything (word processing, email, spreadsheets, gaming) on Linux inside Gnome except for managing my finances

Let me guess, all the Tuxracer you can handle?

Re:Desktop Apps

[petabyte]

Actually, I'm horrible at Tuxracer. Generally I play enemy-territory, quake3, starcraft or frozen-bubble.

Oh and Koules :)

Re:Desktop Apps

[cerberusss]

I do everything on Linux inside Gnome except for managing my finances. I keep a windows box with Quicken around for that.

If you'd like to do away with that Windows box but you need Quicken, you could use Crossover Office. Or maybe first try Wine since that's free, but I have had loads of more luck with Codeweavers' commercial version.

Re:Desktop Apps

[mcrbids]

I keep a windows box with Quicken around for that.

Dunno about you, but some time ago, I put a version of Quicken5 for DOS on a Linux system in FreeDos using DosEMU. I can now access this instantaneously via SSH from any computer in the world on the Internet, with a very high degree of security.

Nice. Very, very NICE.

Re:Desktop Apps

[xeno-cat]

We used to strugle with GNUCash at our business, then we switched to Quasar available at linuxcanada.com.

I have followed the GNUCash project from early on and I think what hurt them was a strong resistance to including business features early in the projects development. The community seemed to be crying for it and they really squandered a lot of momentum by resisting it.

Anyway, Quasar is not Open Source, but it is cheap for business ($30 US), has some add ons like POS, and is free for personal use. It's also client/server UNIX daemon based and is multi user.

Kind Regards

Re:Desktop Apps

[JInterest]

Which really makes me wish that GNUCash was in that group.

Go to here. Problem solved. And if you want it to look like your other Gnome/GTK apps, just pass it the GTKLookAndFeel when starting it up. With j2se1.5 coming out soon, it will even have a skinnable look and feel for Gnome. Just add jre!

KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[jonathanbearak]

I don't understand how people keep saying that KDE and Gnome don't work together. They're different environments, but all they're parts are pretty darn interchangeable. A while ago, for the heck of it, I replaced gnome-panel in Session prefs with kicker. Worked perfectly. After reading your post, I called kwin --replace to switch from metacity to kde's wm.

And OO.org ... that's for running across OS's, not KDE/Gnome. Besides, Native Widget Framework is due for the next major release AFAIK.

Mozilla ... it uses gtk+ or gtk2, many of which would consider to be (sort of) Gnome. XUL is not a KDE/Gnome issue. Like OO.o, it's another platform issue.

Gnome and KDE don't need to converge. At this point, they're aiming at different markets. KDE is uber-customizable. Gnome is focusing on KISS usability issues. The important backend stuff is already being taken care of via freedesktop.org.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, perhaps.

I've had a lot of trouble getting Gnome to run on my KDE (Xandros) box.

So you're saying that with Native Widget Framework and freedesktop.org we'll see more of a common package?

basically I'd like to be able to run _all_ linux software on my linux box without having to become an expert sysadmin to do it. Not a big thing to ask for, eh?

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[bonch]

He wasn't asking for them to work together. He was wondering why we still have to keep installing two different collections of libraries and packages so we can run each other's apps.

They DO need to converge. You say KDE is uber-customizable, and GNOME is focusing on KISS usability issues. Why the hell aren't they one desktop project that is both uber-customizable yet focusing on KISS usability issues?

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[theantix]

Bah.

The problem you are complaining about is a problem with Xandros's distribution, not linux. If gnome doesn't run properly in Xandros that just means that they haven't bothered to properly package it. Many distributions have the ability to install GNOME and KDE on the same installation, and applications written for one DE have always run just fine in the other one in every distributions I have tested.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[FooBarWidget]

"Why the hell aren't they one desktop project that is both uber-customizable yet focusing on KISS usability issues?"

Do you even know what KISS means? Keep It Simple and Stupid! Uber-customizability and uber-simplicity are two mutually exclusive things. It's like trying to make hot ice!

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Namaseit]

The problem is their *frameworks* are completely different. Because of this if you wanted to bring the two together you would have to scrap one DE's entire framework as "melting" them together would take so many man hours I don't even want to think about it. The closest your going to get is esthetic integration. KDE uses a lot of things that integrating into GNOME would be more work then it's worth. Kpart's(embedding applications in other applications aka konqueror), Kioslaves(doing ftp:// in kate and being able to remotely modify files directly), and many other things that make up KDE. I don't know much about GNOME's framework to tell you the truth.
There will never be true integration. Accept it.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[be-fan]

He was wondering why we still have to keep installing two different collections of libraries and packages so we can run each other's apps.
-----------
Why does Explorer, MS Office, and Visual Studio on Windows all use different toolkits and underlying lbrares? Because things historically just don't work out the way you always want it to, and if "integration" is good enough, than it doesn't matter that its not a perfect solution.

Why the hell aren't they one desktop project that is both uber-customizable yet focusing on KISS usability issues?
-----------
Are you dense? The two approaches are completely contridictory! GNOME follows the idea that "less is more." KDE follows the idea that "more is more." You can either have less or more --- you can't combine them.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[True Grit]

1. Uber-customizability and uber-simplicity are two mutually exclusive things

You know, call me crazy, but I just don't believe this. Think of the apps out there that have an "advanced interface" button. With it turned off, the app adopts the KISS principle, with a streamlined interface with only basic options, but if the user selects the advanced mode, the interface expands or even alters itself to support the needs of the power user. So the problem with KDE is that they don't adopt a KISS interface as standard and hide the complex stuff by default, while GNOME doesn't have the complex stuff at all.

If the two camps really wanted to, they could work together, I don't buy the argument that a feature from KDE couldn't be ported to GNOME or vice versa, but the reason they still won't work together on a common interface is because of the problems that were present from the very beginning of both DEs:

Qt is not free on all platforms

GNOME=C but KDE=C++
Even though Qt is now free on *nix, that isn't enough for the diehard Free Software folks, while the latter reason is still the real fundamental stumbling block, because GNOME people refuse to work with anything other than C, and the KDE people refuse to use any language they feel is inferior to C++. Having "wrappers" for other languages is a smoke screen, the language issue for the core of the DE is still what separates the 2 groups.

Theoretically, if the 2 groups could agree on a common language for the core, the rest of the integration could happen with little technical difficulty. Having a default KISS interface that can morph into a power user's interface in the same DE is not some technically impossible challenge, its just a matter of agreeing on an underlying standard framework and then adopting a coherent policy on the cosmetic and asthetic issues. The real reasons they won't integrate their work actually goes back to the very old reasons that still separate them.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[be-fan]

You know, call me crazy, but I just don't believe this. Think of the apps out there that have an "advanced interface" button.
-----------
HIG research shows that such interfaces do not work. People overestimate their capabilities and try to use the advanced mode when they shouldn't, or need to use it the minute they need even one thing not in the default interface.

I don't buy the argument that a feature from KDE couldn't be ported to GNOME or vice versa
------------
The KDE code and GNOME code are completely different. It would be easier to just rewrite all of KDE's features than to port them to GNOME. The license and language issues do play a role, but the simple fact is that KDE and GNOME are very different, not just in the code, but in the developer and user communities.

Having a default KISS interface that can morph into a power user's interface in the same DE is not some technically impossible challenge
-------------
I'd say its a damn hard technical challenge. Certainly, I can't think of a mainstream app that has accomplished such a feat. Look at all the popular apps: Microsoft Office, Photoshop, etc, are very powerful, but have very complex interfaces. iMovie, iPhoto, etc, are very simple, but limited in power. Now, if you've got a great idea on how to accomplish this, when so many others have failed, I'm willing to listen!

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

> Do you even know what KISS means?
> Keep It Simple and Stupid!

Ah, actually, I'm pretty sure there's no 'and' in the expansion of KISS. There's actually a comma where you've put the 'and'.

Anyway... I'm a Gnome user, and I can't think of anything that I'd like to customize but can't. What is there that's customizable in KDE but not Gnome?

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[0x0d0a]

KDE is uber-customizable. Gnome is focusing on KISS usability issues.

[grin] I think you've got that backwards, but whatever makes you happy...

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[True Grit]

1. HIG research shows that such interfaces do not work. People overestimate their capabilities and try to use the advanced mode when they shouldn't, or need to use it the minute they need even one thing not in the default interface.

It seems to me, people overestimating their own ability isn't the fault of the interface. I agree its a dilemma, but not as bad as not offering the advanced interface at all. If GNOME takes the KISS principle too far they are just going to drive the power users to another alternative. Perhaps that has already happened.

1. The KDE code and GNOME code are completely different.

Yes, but not in the same way as saying COBOL code and Lisp code are completely different. GNOME is C written in a OO style, while C++ is, of course, very similar to C but with OO features. You can port between C and C++ a lot easier than most other combinations, indeed, unlike COBOL/Lisp, C++ compilers today will compile most ANSI C code without complaint. While a lot of the GUI code on both sides is very different because they use different GUI libraries, a lot of the foundation code in both systems isn't GUI dependent and could migrate a lot easier I believe than you think.

1. Microsoft Office, Photoshop, etc, are very powerful, but have very complex interfaces. iMovie, iPhoto, etc, are very simple, but limited in power.

Ultimately that is always the tradeoff you are going to have. Complex apps with complex features require a complex interface *to* those features. I was speaking less in terms of applications, and more in terms of just the DE's interface. To solve this problem, you don't need different DE's, I think, you just need different apps ranging from the dead simple to the complex. The environment remains the same, but the complexity is moved to the applications, with the whole point being that we end up with a common basic DE, but with a wide variation of file managers, editors, and other apps to solve the needs of different users.

Does a DE really have to have just one official file manager for it? I don't think so, decisions have to made about what the defaults are, but beyond that choice is essential to satisfy a large user base, and the whole argument is about trying to come up with one DE that could satisfy most folks, and provide Linux with a GUI standard that it currently doesn't have. If the KDE and GNOME people could agree on a common core, they can still go their own ways on the apps and utilities to satisfy different users and different goals, while at least saving all of us from having to keep 2 completely different and massive library suites on our system to use the different apps.

I just don't buy the argument that you have to have an entirely different system, from the foundation libraries providing I/O and GUI widgets right up to the file manager and other utilities, just to satisfy the differing goals of KISS and customizability. The 2 groups *could* find a lot of common ground, *if* they really wanted to, and really *tried*.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[CRCulver]

It seems to me, people overestimating their own ability isn't the fault of the interface. I agree its a dilemma, but not as bad as not offering the advanced interface at all. If GNOME takes the KISS principle too far they are just going to drive the power users to another alternative. Perhaps that has already happened.

GNOME does have an "Advanced Interface". It's called gconf-editor. Galeon's UI, for instance, has a certain number of preferences, but in gconf-editor you can set many more. In any event, I don't think GNOME wants power users, as the companies supporting GNOME are aiming at the corporate market where everything is basic and locked down. When GNOME changed its direction towards corporate users, I, thinking myself a power user, moved to a desktop based mainly on GNUstep, which doesn't treat its users like morons or corporate drones.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[be-fan]

GNOME is C written in a OO style, while C++ is, of course, very similar to C but with OO features.
--------
Its not just a matter of language. Its a matter of the fundemental structure of the code.

a lot of the foundation code in both systems isn't GUI dependent and could migrate a lot easier I believe than you think.
---------
I am reasonably familier with the KDE architecture and parts of the KDE code, and I can tell you that nearly everything is fundementally tied to Qt. Even non-GUI stuff like kio and dcop are dependent on Qt. Unless GNOME is willing to adopt a Qt dependency (never going to happen) that code cannot be integrated. In the other direction, a lot of GNOME code has dependencies on glib and GTK+. There is no way in hell that KDE will adopt a GTK+ dependency, but it is porting some of the glib-dependent parts over. However, that is not terribly useful, because GNOME really has few non-GUI things that are worth porting.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[FooBarWidget]

"Think of the apps out there that have an "advanced interface" button."

Advanced buttons/menus/modes/whatever don't work. Users overestimate themselves and set each application into advanced mode or click on the Advanced button and either get confused or mess things up. It's also a support nightmare ("Turn on option X", "I don't see option X", "Oh, you aren't in advanced mode?").
Sawfish had beginner/intermediate/advanced modes. Nautilus had beginner/intermediate/advanced modes. Everybody (including beginners) overestimate themselves and set advanced mode. Windows has "Advanced..." buttons but people, even beginners, click on them anyway and screw up their entire system. This has been proven in practice many times.

Not only that, some people don't even want to see "Advanced.." buttons. No, they don't want an option to hide those buttons either. They want everything to be as simple as possible and Just Work(tm).
On the other side, you have people who want hundreds of options and a GUI for each and every option. Those people don't want "Advanced.." butons either, they want every option in the GUI by default.

Conclusion: they are mutually exclusive. One size does not, and will never, fit all. That's why choice exist in the first place! One size cannot fit all!

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[FooBarWidget]

"If GNOME takes the KISS principle too far they are just going to drive the power users to another alternative."

So? Power users aren't GNOME's target audience. That's the whole point!

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

Recreating fucking regedit is not "advanced". I have political qualms about supporting KDE, but right now, it's lightyears ahead of GNOME.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[True Grit]

1. I can tell you that nearly everything is fundementally tied to Qt

Right, I meant to imply in my argument that the base libraries and frameworks would be tackled first, using 2 different frameworks is a non-starter anyway, but then again, getting either side to even just publically state they are willing to compromise is pratically impossible now, so I'm wasting my (and your) time here. :)

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[True Grit]

Then Linux will never have a unified, standard DE, and I thought that was the holy grail most everyone wants so Linux can compete better against Windows and OSX and the like. Personally, I really don't care *that* much about it, I was just making the argument that many others would make.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[be-fan]

Both KDE and GNOME have repeatedly stated that they are willing to compromise. freedesktop.org is a manifestation of that willingness to compromise. However, what neither group is willing to do is to start over. Throwing out GTK+ or Qt would mean rewriting *everything* in the desktop, and that's just not a practical thing to do.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Rysc]

I'm a Gnome user, and I can't think of anything that I'd like to customize but can't.

This is just the problem: They've dumbed it down, and so dumbed you down.

I've not tried GNOME lately, not since they started this slide towards madness. But here are some points:

Rearrange the titlebar buttons. Now, I realize that this is a WM issue, so...

Switch your window manager. This used to be a simple option from control panel in GNOME. Now? It may exist, somewhere in the registry, maybe not. Who knows? People aren't going tolook in the registry.

I'd like to change the colors of one part of a theme but not the whole theme. Whoops, no luck there. How about a theme that doesn't clobber my emacs keybindings?

A web browser that I can get to behave the way *I* want, not the way the GNOME devs have decided everyone wants?

How about a damn file dialog? The KDE one is extremely fantastic in terms of customizability. GNOME people will ultimately decide on one-and-only for the file dialog, just like everything else, instead of providing choice.

There's more, but it would take me ages.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

This is flamebait, but does Gnome truly even have a "framework". To me, Gnome is just a bunch of random apps that happen to use the same toolkit. There's not much integration going on there imo. Besides Nautilus and Evolution what else is using Bonobo. Don't most developers consider it a disaster?

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[be-fan]

Don't forget panels and menus. KDE's panels and menus are a lot more customizable. For example, there is no way to put the GNOME menu at the top, and GNOME panels just have the standard-autohide, instead of the "allow windows to overlap panel" option KDE has. The latter is, imho, a perfect compromise between saving screen space and having quick access, because although the panel can be overlapped, it rises to the top when you move your mouse to the window edge. However, unlike with autohide, the panel is usually visible because windows usually aren't overlapping it.

Re:KDE and Gnome *do* run side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

you think wrong

Freedesktop.org is the fulcrum point

[Ars-Fartsica]

A great deal of work is taking place to push commonalities up the food chain to Freedesktop.org. Mostly this is X related, but I suspect this will grow over time into a true interoperability effort.

Once we've reached a point where the projects are not duplicating effort needlessly, we can truly say vive la difference with no guilt over wasted efforts.

Re:Freedesktop.org is the fulcrum point

[Anonymous Coward]

And most of the freedesktop work (plus all the OO native widget work, and Mozilla stuff) is being done by GNOME hackers. GNOME hackers are busy working to ensure that all linux desktop can benefit, while KDE hackers spend their time bitching about GNOME (see kdedevelopers.com -- stupid clueless zealots).

Re:Freedesktop.org is the fulcrum point

[Anonymous Coward]

"Host kdedevelopers.com not found" - I remember times where trolls were better.

Re:Freedesktop.org is the fulcrum point

[Anonymous Coward]

kdedevelopers.org -- it is clearly beyond your wit to assume a typo. Or would you like me to make it a link for you too...

Check out the ranting about freedesktop in the journals and articles.

Hey Klerk!

[Anonymous Coward]

Egg Troll here, man. How come we never see you in the secret troll hideout anymore?

gnome 2.5

[prockcore]

I'm using Gnome 2.5 (Subscribed to the 2.5 channel in Red Carpet, automagically upgraded everything for me). I have to say that Nautilus in the 2.5/2.6 branch is amazing.

How amazing, you ask? It's as fast as gmc used to be. Although it is a little strange to switch back to the old OS9 style Spatial Finder style of file management.

Things are a little buggy, Nautilus crashes every once in a while, and Evolution sometimes doesn't quit correctly. But in general, the whole desktop is great. Gimp1.3 is super sweet, and finally supports re-editable Text layers (ala photoshop)

Re:gnome 2.5

[Anonymous Coward]

hah. Try konqueror 3.2.
Blows the pants off nautilus.

Re:gnome 2.5

[prockcore]

hah. Try konqueror 3.2.
Blows the pants off nautilus.

No, it really doesn't. The new Nautilus is perfect. It handles files, it's clean and simple. It's the least cluttered file manager I've ever used. Konq on the other hand, is as unweildy as Explorer.

There's even a thread by the konq devs talking about how nice the spatial nautilus is and how they want to do something similar.

Re:gnome 2.5

[Anonymous Coward]

Konqueror is vastly superior to Nautilus. Get over it.

Re:gnome 2.5

[twener]

> There's even a thread by the konq devs talking about how nice the spatial nautilus is and how they want to do something similar.

Can you please provide a link?

Re:gnome 2.5

[prockcore]

I can't seem to find the link to the thread in google, but here is the blog entry that I think kicked the thread off:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/218

Re:gnome 2.5

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a single opinion/blog entry. Saying that Konq developers as a whole have this opinion is wrong.

Re:gnome 2.5

[Anonymous Coward]

"Blog entry that kicked the thread off"... retard. He didn't say that *all* Konqueror developers thought that, just that there was long discussion about how nice it was and any how it might be nice to use some of the ideas.

I know it hurts to think that KDE isn't perfect, but it's worth the effort.

Speaking in a very serious tone here

[Anonymous Coward]

By software engineering breakthroughs do you mean "ideas stolen from Windows NT/2000?"

GNOME is excellent

[Beavis!]

I've recently been introducing my staff at my day job to GNOME since we are moving away from OpenVMS to Unix. Since HP-UX will be coming with GNOME as a default in future releases, I figured it would be good to get the guys used to it by having them use it on a daily basis for basic work stuff. So far they have taken to it pretty well. The most amazing thing is that some of them actually find it EASIER and more FLEXIBLE than Windows. Thank you for a terrific project!

Re:GNOME is excellent

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if they are coming from that masochisitic shite known as CDE I don't blame them.

Re:GNOME is excellent

[bonch]

I think the thing that keeps me going back to Gnome is both its simplicity and its speed. KDE feels way too much like an overload of thrown-in features, although the 3.2 release really impressed me.

I often switch back and forth between the two as new releases come out--I will be using Gnome again when its new version is released.

Re:GNOME is excellent

[Beavis!]

Actually, I do the same thing myself. I find elements in each that I like, but GNOME seems to feel more polished and put together these days. I'm not saying that KDE doesn't, but... GNOME apps seem more flexible in terms of look and feel. I can't stress the importance of a really slick looking desktop when it comes to the usability of a computer from a non-techie perspective. It makes it much easier for me to introduce people to a new desktop when it looks more impressive than Windows XP.

Re:GNOME is excellent

[__past__]

Since HP-UX will be coming with GNOME as a default in future releases

I thought they chickened out of this? Did they change their mind again?

windows 2000 source code

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok who has the nads to post the windows 2000 source code to slashdot?

I DARE YOU!

And you better not even THINK of modding that shit as anything but INFORMATIVE!

Come on man, post it!

Lets see what happens? Does slashdot:

a) Pull the post
b) Turn over the posters IP to the FBI and pull the post
c)Leave it up and actually live up to their free speech and anonymoty ideals?

What better way then this to test Taco's mettle!

Let's see him put his anti-censorship money where his mouth is!

So come on post it!

You know you wanna do it!

Just a few juicy tidbits at least!

Re:windows 2000 source code

[Anonymous Coward]

Several people posted small amounts of the source in the original Slashdot story. Nothing's happened to the comments yet. Though, Microsoft has requested removal of Slashdot posts before, so who knows?

That was quick

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it would take months to integrate the NT/2000 code

The reverse?

[Gyan]

Waugh: The whole point of the patent system is that they're supposed to be obvious things. But there are a lot of things in computing that are unobvious to a point

Umm, isn't it the opposite? Only those insights and ideas which are "non-obvious".

Re:The reverse?

[jdub!]

Yeah, the interview was done in the middle of the linux.conf.au wireless area, with a tape recorder. It seems a fair few things were lost along the way. ;-)

Re:The reverse?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, of course. I've never read a more stupid comment on patents ever. Why would a government grant a limited monopoly on a technology that is obvious to everyone and doesn't need to be taught?

Gnome is dying...

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody just had to say this. We all know the truth though. Gnome is dead and its getting rotten as we speak. Oh well, it was a piece of shit anyways.

In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Waugh JEFFS YOU!!!!

Linus

[bonch]

Why do you think Linus Torvalds is so popular? He's so down-to-earth about these things and interested in the technology and not the technicalities. This SCO mess forced him into it, but even then he still spits out the choice quotes, like the infamous "crack" comment.

Untarring, compiling, etc.

[Animats]

Ah, yes. Download, decompress, untar, compile, discover missing package, download, decompress, untar, compile, discover missing package...

Re:Untarring, compiling, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, yes. Download, decompress, untar, compile, discover missing package, download, decompress, untar, compile, discover missing package...

Just goes to show:

Debian > OS X

KISS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep It Simple Stupid? More like keep it Stupid Stupid?

Desktop haiku

[Anonymous Coward]

kde and gnome
two answers to a problem
thats one too many

poor linux user
just wants his applications
to run on his box

choice is a good thing
and, and, and but not or, or.
Unification!

Shall we dance?

[tepples]

Ever tried pydance or StepMania? Or do you just not have the rhythm?

Re:I'd love to Gnome out! (OT)

[fferreres]

It's easy to grasp the concept of depth of field. But it's not very intuitive, or straightforward. Much less understanding to use it to you benefit.

A simple way to make people understand what's the point with depth of field, or why it's used, was shown to me with an example:

A near object (a mupet) and a large (skycrapper) very far object where shot with 2 cameras. One had a very powefull zoom lens, and the other had a comon lens. The important thing was that the mupet was about the same size in both picture, that was the point. The skycrapper, on the other hand, appeared like a tall big item that didn't even fit the frame. On the other picture, the skycrapper looked like a tiny pencil that wasn't even as tall as the mupet.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out! (OT)

[fferreres]

Or was it the other way around? :-( Damn...yes it was! Damnit.

LGPL

[Anonymous Coward]

Gnome seems nice enough, but I refuse to use it until it is GPL:d.

Re:LGPL

[donscarletti]

If you don't like the LGPL you are in a little trouble because all the KDE core libraries are licenced under the LGPL KDE Licencing policy as well. You will find that no KDE library can be anything tighter than LGPL and many of them are far looser

It is QT that is duel licenced under GPL and QPL but that is not part of the KDE project and they are connected very little except of one depending on the other.

Re:LGPL

[Anonymous Coward]

Qt (not QT!) depending on kdelibs? No, otherwise you never could compile both.

Re:I'd love to Gnome out! (OT)

[Basehart]

Hmm, maybe I never did figure out depth of field after all :-)

gstupid gapp gnames

[Anonymous Coward]

gwhy gmust gall gnome gapp gnames gstart gwith g? git's gridiculous!

Re:gstupid gapp gnames

[Anonymous Coward]

gwhy gmust gall gnome gapp gnames gstart gwith g? git's gridiculous!

You mean like nautilus, Dasher, Rhythmbox, Totem, Evolution, devhelp, anjuta, yelp, zenity, metacity, epiphany, balsa, acme, bug-buddy, eye of gnome, file-roller, scrollkeeper...?

Yeah, I wonder the same... (rolls eyes).

Mono?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know about the legal status of Mono? I mean, if Gnome starts using it all over the place and M$ decides to shut it down (they have like a million lawyers, so they can probably do that), won't Gnome be, well, dead? Or at least in a very uncomfortable position?

Re:Mono?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know about the legal status of Mono? I mean, if Gnome starts using it all over the place and M$ decides to shut it down (they have like a million lawyers, so they can probably do that), won't Gnome be, well, dead? Or at least in a very uncomfortable position?

I highly doubt that gnome would adopt parts of mono affected by patents, if they did.

Also remember there hasn't been any real indicator that mono will be adopted by the gnome developer platform, so this discussion would be pretty sterile. Perhaps in one or two years, though.

Re:Mono?

[Anonymous Coward]

and M$ decides to shut it down (they have like a million lawyers, so they can probably do that), won't Gnome be, well, dead?

This question is answered in the mono FAQ. Basically it states that, should Microsoft enforce their patents, it would not be a big problem for mono.

Re:Mono?

[damiam]

MS cannot shut Mono down. There are a few patents involved, but MS has, by submitting C# to the EMCA, agreed to allow use of those patents royalty-free for any purpose. The only controversial aspects are ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms, none of which would be used by GNOME (although they're still being implemented).

Re:Mono?

[nzkoz]

I believe the ECMA's patent policy is Reasonable And Non Discriminatory, so they can charge $10m per developer, so long as they charge that to everyone.

Re:Mono?

[damiam]

While that's generally true, MS agreed additionally to make the patents available royalty-free.

Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeff Waugh one of the MOST hated person in the GNOME community. Some sort a Adolf Hitler with NAZI methodes. He was responsible for MORE people and developers leaving the GNOME project than anyone else did. Sorry but this guy is everything else than a KEY factor in GNOME. He is a fucking dumbass and simply hated.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

What ? They are still allowing that guy to be part of that project ?

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah sad but true. I can't understand how such a person can make it into the board again. But people have stopped voting for some particular reasons.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Coverfire]

Can you support any of that with facts? Examples from IRC, or the GNOME mailing lists? I seriously doubt it.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry but this guy is everything else than a KEY factor in GNOME.

He is the release manager, like it or not. Cry me a river.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah like releasing a bunch of Tarballs is such a painful job.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah like releasing a bunch of Tarballs is such a painful job.

If you think so, offer to help him. You'll be surprised to find how exhausting it can be.

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Helping a Jeff Waugh ? Impossible, he even rejected help from people with g.o's Mainpage. He got so mad when others wanted to help him that he started calling them idiots. Reference

Re:Waugh ? == Most hated !

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think he shouts this out in the public so everyone can blame him in return ? You can be sure this is only happening in a per person way of doing this or in the IRC channel where you can follow his ranting and flaming of people. But you can be sure that those who are affected by all this carry the word around from one person to another.

a few things were lost...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, like the guy's mind. He has no idea what he's talking about.

Why choose one?

[0x0d0a]

Install both and try each -- it's free. All the major distros support both. It's kind of like asking someone which web browser to use or whether a song is a "good song" or not. You aren't going to get anywhere.

Evolution Dataserver version 2.0

[axxackall]

Something magical is upcoming. I've tried to find anything about Evolution Dataserver version 2.0 mentioned in interview, and all I found so far were references to cvs. Looks like apart few developers accessing thisnew wombat no one else knows what it is, how it is designed and how it works.

Re:Evolution Dataserver version 2.0

[jerky42]

Yeah, I searched high and low for info on this too. Why is it such a big secret?

Re:Evolution Dataserver version 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

Something magical is upcoming. I've tried to find anything about Evolution Dataserver version 2.0 mentioned in interview, and all I found so far were references to cvs. Looks like apart few developers accessing thisnew wombat no one else knows what it is, how it is designed and how it works.

No, it's not a secret. Perhaps you should try looking harder.

Re:Evolution Dataserver version 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I can say about wombat (the ancestor of the promised dataserver) - ti's not a secret, it's a shame. It fails, it crashes, it loses data.

more feature creep ahead

[madpierre]

The emphasis still seems to be on adding yet *more* features
and bloat to GNOME. At what point are they going to stop doing
this and finally declare the desktop *feature* complete?

IMHO, GNOME is eminently useable and has sufficent features already.
Stability should be given greater emphasis.

Re:more feature creep ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, GNOME is eminently useable and has sufficent features already.
Stability should be given greater emphasis.

And of the other side of the ring, angry gnome 1.x and KDE fans claim the 2.x series still is years of light behind the features they want. Sigh.

P.S.: What's the problem with stability? 2.4 series has never crashed on me (not a single official app), plus apps compiled for 2.0 will work in any 2.x release. Perhaps you are using another definition of "stability" I don't know?

Re:more feature creep ahead

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brotha.

"Stability" as in feature-frozen so developers can count on it.

And don't forget "speed". We've got the features. Let's dump the bloat.

One of the biggest things holding Linux back on the desktop is not only the plethora of so-called "standards" but the fact that they change constantly and needlessly. A standard that changes isn't very standard, is it?

Developers don't want to worry about if someone doesn't have gtk-2 or kde 3.2 or freetype2 or SDL. And users shouldn't be pestered to upgrade constantly piecemeal while praying their current software and configuration files doesn't break from the "upgrade".

Sometimes the best way to go forward is to just stop. Could you imagine the chaos if we had an "alphabet 2.0" and forced all "users" and dictionaries to comply to it? Or said "old words can coexist with alphabet 2.0 but new words must be made with 2.0 and if you want to continue using English you must upgrade yourself to understand alphabet 2.0!" No! We have a standard alphabet and let you make all the words you want from it.

Linux needs not only a good and *fast* set of underpinings but they need to be slightly future-proof (*cough* OpenGL should be the basis of all, not a meager X extension *cough*) and feature-frozen.

'Kause

[spineboy]

KDE Ktook kthe kletter k kalready

Not sure I'd agree

[Srin Tuar]

Having used libsigc++, it allows all the flexibility of Qt's string based callback system and is typesafe in addition.

Admittedly, it is all compile-time, but that doesnt mean its not dynamic: you can certainly hook and unhook things at runtime. The MOC isnt going to make C++ into an interpreted language or anything.

The other things about gtkmm that I like are that it doesnt try to duplicate things from the stl (such as QtString), that the code size tends to be small, and the executables tend to be fast.

I agree however, that if you liked Objective-C, that you will probably like Qt better, it makes sense.

Re:Not sure I'd agree

[be-fan]

Admittedly, it is all compile-time, but that doesnt mean its not dynamic
---------
If its compile-time, then its *not* dynamic. C++ has very limited support for any sort of dynamism, and the STL and libsigc++ continue that tradition. Like I said, I'm a fan of "modern" C++, but I have to admit that its static nature isn't great for GUIs.

The MOC isnt going to make C++ into an interpreted language or anything.
-----------
Since when do you need an interpreted language to have dynamism? Smalltalk and Lisp are among the most highly dynamic languages out there, yet have the most advanced native-code compilers available.

that the code size tends to be small, and the executables tend to be fast.
----------
In my experience, Qt is a lot faster than GTK+. GTK+ is really glacial for redraws (especially resizing) and certain things like GtkListView and Pango are quite slow. It doesn't really matter if the language binding is faster if the underlying toolkit is slower.

Foundataion code

[bluGill]

Yep, a lot of foundation code is migratable. Oh wait, let me correct that, a lot of foundataion code is common between the two. Both systems for instance require libxml. More work is being done where it makes sense. However sometimes there are two different ways of doing something, both with good and bad points. Then one group goes one way and one the other. Sometimes it turns out after comparing what happens (sometimes after many years) when going different ways that one way is considered better. (Kde is considering replacing aRts for instance)

I've worked in the KDE source code, most of kdelibs is kparts, kio, or qt/kde interface. None of that can be factored out unless Gnome is willing to use those, which is unlikely. I'm not sure what is the base of GNOME, but I'm sure they are in the same situation, a lot of code with an interface that KDE has no interest in useing at this time, so why try to make it common. Any code that proves itself in the real world will be factored out into something both use, but only if and when it makes sense.

The KDE/GNOME split happened for political reasons, most developers have no problem working with others. However supporters of one project or the other tend to be religious about it, and they have no room for anything the other religion does.

hahahhaha

[Anonymous Coward]

'And the good thing about our releases is that you only have to wait a maximum of six months to get something in.'

Wow, that's really efficient.